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Caraxes has war experience, we've even seen it on the show. You can criticise Daemon but he's definitely a very good rider, possibly the best we've seen in the show so far
You can call him a batshit person sure but when you say batshit rider it sounds like you are actually criticising his riding skills. At least that's how I understood it
Your spoiler tag didn’t work btw >!However I wouldn’t say aemond is gifted per se, he just has the advantage of size, pretty much anyone piloting vhagar could do serious damage, if they were fighting on two similar size dragons daemon would’ve hosed him and landed safely.!<
>!I wouldn't be so fast in calling that a draw.!< >!Caraxes technically survived the fight but died to its wounds immediately after battle.!< >!Also Daemon's body was never found! It is possible that he actually survived but went underground. We've seen a similar thing happen to Leanor in the show. He was supposed to be dead but the show made it so that he was alive but no one could've written that in a history book.!<
SPOILERS
>!Corlys only becomes Hand when Rhaenys dies and Jace gives him the position to prevent him from abandoning Team Black (Corlys blames Rhaenyra for Rhaeny's death). Up until Corlys is named Hand, Rhaenyra doesn't have a Hand.!<
I know it's a spoiler and it's easy to feel like a huge chunk of the story has been ruined for you, but at the very least the way a character dies and the context associated with it matters a lot to you as a viewer/reader. I've read Fire and Blood so I roughly know where the story is going, but even still the huge moments have a completely different feel and it's safe to say I spoiled myself by reading the book.
All that to say, I hope you're not feeling too disappointed by the spoiler you read. How the story plays out and how that spoiler factors in are huge parts of the experience too, hopefully that helps to not have all the wind taken out of your sails.
I was wondering about that. I never remembered Rhaenys being named Hand. But my memory sucks, so there's that. Also, I never remembered anything about Rhaenys being named hand.
chaotic evil at that. killed his own brother and father for political gain. who, we’re never even told or shown that he had a bad relationship with. like, he kills his family so he can jack it to some queenly feet
I don’t think he was the best dad to Larys he really shouldn’t have allowed him to be educated in intrigue and had him educated in diplomacy or sent him to the citadel, and he definitely liked Harwin a lot more, but he wasn’t a bad dad to Larys by any means and really had no way of knowing Larys was a literal sociopath.
And Otto was good for most of his tenure. But his role in usurping the throne and starting a civil war overshadows it. It’s like if Abraham Lincoln’s wife said that most of her evening at the play was good.
Because he didn’t give a shit about scheming for more power for himself and his house, he generally cared about what was best for the realm unlike otto who was always scheming for himself and his family. Strong wanted what was best for the realm while otto only gave a shit about what was best for his house. If Otto like Strong had good intentions and did what was best for the realm he totally could’ve been a kickass hand tho but he was always scheming and pretty much singlehandedly brought on a civil war
Lyonel was a terrible hand. He allowed his son to sleep with the princess and play as if their bastards were legitimate.
If Rhaenyra had peacefully inherited, her succession would've led to a civil war between her own kids.
At the ages they were then, no. But as those younger sons grew up had kids of their own, and saw that they were bastards with no claim to their throne, while they had people whispering in their ears that (you should king) I 100% see the younger brothers fighting for it.
I don't really buy this idea that the feud will simply fester over the old issues.
Every year that goes by with Rhaenyra/Jace on the throne would make them ever more legitimate rulers. Every year the alternate candidates aren't on the throne will bleed their support as more and more people become invested in the status quo.
And what's more, once we start talking about another generation being born, that's yet another opportunity to offer a marriage compromise binding the family back together. Viserys did this with the Velaryons, Rhaenyra did so as well and even offered another to the Greens.
Do we really think Aegon 'take my throne, Aemond' is going to rebel when he could just have one of his kids marry Jace's and be done with it? He definitely didn't hold the same animosity Alicent did, and when we're talking some years down the line he'll have started coming into his own and won't be as easily controlled.
Not to mention the fact that much of the feud is predicated on the idea that Rhaenyra would just murder the Greens to secure the throne, and presumably once that doesn't happen it will begin to fade as well.
if otto wasn’t so self interested i’d say he’d be one of the best hands in the seven kingdoms, but his actions to put Aegon on the Throne has now spiraled into a very bloody Civil War.
Yeah, but it's something that Otto could've foreseen early on if he wasn't greedy and willing to continue with his selfish goals at the expense of the realm. That isn't exactly the kind of character you would want for a hand.
If Aemond didn’t kill Luke there could’ve been a chance at a peaceful resolution.
That’s why Otto was so pissed at Aemond for what he did. His plan had been going perfectly until Aemond screwed it all up and made war inevitable.
He ruled the Kingdoms for 30 years which are considered to be the peak of Targaryen power and prosperity. Jaehaerys was 68 by the end of his reign so Otto would be calling the shots and Viserys just didn't care about ruling so as far as i am concerned Otto deserves credit for that. He played his part in causing a civil war so i don't think he's the best but lets give him credit where its due.
He did play a part his scheming could’ve been easily done with if Viserys named Aegon heir married Rhaenyra and Aegon married Jacaerys and Helaena. He and Viserys played the largest, parts Rhaenyra to a lesser and unknowing extent played a part, and Alicent played a part. Otto wanted what was best for the realm and for his house. Viserys’s inability to solve the issue allowed for the situation.
None of this would've been a problem if he didn't push his daughter in Vyseris' chambers which is, for their time, a very perverse thing to do, especially to your own daughter. He played a lot more dirty than the image he curated.
If he hadn’t done that, Viserys would’ve married Laena or some other lady and then we’d still have a Dance, it would just be a new half-brother of Rhaenyra’s opposing her instead of Aegon II.
Wrong, this happened only because Otto had planned to push his grandson forward. It was all a matter of loyalty to the crown, and Otto wasn't loyal to Vyseris and conspired with a much smaller number of individuals to put Aegon on the throne. The only reason the dance happened, was because Otto conspired against Vyseris' succession towards Rhaenyra. The entire realm was already aware that Rhaenyra followed in succession which is why she was at Dragonstone where only the crown prince of princess is meant to rule in order to learn how to rule the kingdom. Nobody loyal to the crown would've made a coup on the succession otherwise.
I mean, most of that peace and prosperity was made in advance by Jaehaerys, and Vyseris was pretty capable himself at managing the realm. It wasn't a situation where the king was indisposed most of the time so that you could say that the Hand ruled the kingdom in his stead. Otto mainly played the hand on the surface so that he could divide the remaining Targaryen descendants and insert his family on the throne. Then for some reason, he didn't expect the chaos that followed.
You think Otto would have the mind to play those games with Jaehaerys? 😂
Will give him some credit but Viserys enabled the man so much by virtue of being weak.
The one bad thing he did outweighs the good things he did, because it was that bad.
If Hitler had been a good leader* “for the most part,” his legacy still would have been that of the man who committed the biggest genocide in history, and started the deadliest war ever. That’s always going to be more important than “had a good economy,” and “was a competent administrator.”
*I’m not saying that he was, btw. Just making an example.
Rhaenys isn't even Rhaenyra's Hand yet, full stop. No real use debating who's the better Hand when one isn't actually a Hand lol
The actual answer is Lyonel Strong
Depends on what you consider “good”. Were his abilities to play the Game good? Yes. Was he a good Hand for his King? No. He actively manipulated Viserys towards his own ends consistently for decades, contributed to the destruction of the King’s relationships with ALL of his living family members, got the greatest sailor who ever lived to resign as Master of Ships and positioned him as an enemy of the Crown, and actively stoked the flames of civil unrest and later war for 15 years. He was a terrible Hand for Viserys and House Targaryen. He is essentially the HotD version of Littlefinger, but worse at the Game, and obviously, as Hand, not Master of Coin.
What do you mean? He is the only one keeping their shit together right now with Aegon and Crispy fucking up.
Hell, I'm still not recovered from Criston sending Arryk AND Erryk to their deaths.
But he's the primary engineer for all of this. The entire war is a direct result of him spitting poison into his daughter and grandsons ears.
Even as the hand, he was playing at his own ends behind the kings back.
No, he's the reason that shit exists in the first place. Just because he doesn't like to smell his own shit, doesn't mean he isn't the main reason why the realm was in chaos right after Viserys' death
And Rhaenys killed probably 150 people+. A terrorist by our own worlds definition. Not really "hand of the king/queen" material...? Not a very clear choice here, lol.
She didn't kill anyone tho. Y'all just made a bunch of headcanons online which you alone believe, but it's nowhere part of the story that she killed anyone so far.
The cause of the civil war was viserys he was never able to make any decisions his solution to everything was please stop fighting and please do as I say which resolves nothing. He didn't explain how the realm can accept a queen when the king has a son now he didn't resolve the conflicts between the greens and the blacks. Most important of all he married a teenager and caused of this because he was horny
Under Otto's tenure as hand under Jaehaerys and Viserys the realm enjoyed unparalleled peace and prosperity. He must have done something right considering Jaehaerys was senile and Viserys was useless.
Calling Jaehaerys "senile" isnt doing quite enough credit to the most successful king the iron throne ever had. Most of his unparalleled peace came from the years in which Barth was his hand, and that dude was legitimately the best HotK aside from possibly Tywin.
Otto did a fine job during Jaehaerys later years but it does seem like much of his time was spent setting up his family in positions of strength and building events that led directly to the Dance. He was a smart and capable hand but his loyalty was clearly questionable at best, and his actions led to a catastrophe.
Tbf, he was only hand for a short period if we go by the show. Like the year Baelon died Otto became hand which was also the year of the great council. Jaehaerys died shortly after I'd imagine from the ages.
Vyseris was described both in the books and shown in the show to know how to rule a kingdom during peace, that wasn't an issue. And Jaehaerys himself was exceptional as king. That doesn't make the hand's role as important in their reign as it might be during a reign of an indisposed king. If anything, it shows that when Lionel Strong takes over, everything works as always, and when Otto gets back, he creates dissent among the common people, which even Aegon claps back at when he plays the "man of the people" role.
TBH, if they weren't diametrically opposed, I think the ideal pairing would be Queen Rhaenys with Otto as her hand. I know it soulds wild, but hear me out
Rhaenys has shown a decent ability to lead and think long term. She has temperamental moments, but thinks before acting, like when she rose from the dragon pits and chose to spare Aegon, and her willingness to work with Rhaenera, despite believing Rhaenera killed her son. She would need a Hand that can serve as a peer as much as anything else, and that would be Otto, both in terms of age and strategic thinking.
Assuming we're setting aside Otto's selfish desire for family power in the "morality aside" part of the conversation, he's a brilliant Hand. He showed in his handling of Aegon this season that he does want the king to act in a way that's best for the realm now that his family has power, even to the point of being dismissed. If he was serving a strong Queen rather than a timid leader like Viserys or a young fool like Aegon, I think they would be a damn strong duo
Otto is not a principled man, highly ambitious and a pretty good manipulator. He does appear to be a moral man who does care when innocents are injured or killed when it’s people outside of the royal court. He’s very Machiavellian but did a great job in improving the lives of the kingdoms civilians. We haven’t seen enough of Rhaenys to judge what she even values or what her political capabilities are. I’d go with Otto if he wasn’t so power hungry
What lives of the civilians did he improve? the small council talks about Johanna Swan being kidnapped and sold into sex slavery and he still convinces Viserys not to join the war, because he wants to fuck over Daemon and the Velaryons by either killing them off and/or the Velaryons spending all of their money and losing men to fight a war that affects all of the 7 kingdoms, not just the Velaryons.
If baelon/bael survived and was a healthy baby Otto would be the gold standard although he probably make vizzy marry his daughter and then marry baelon/bael to helena
Otto is the lesser evil as compared to Tywin Lannister. There was still a little morality left in Otto unlike in Tywin. But mentally Tywin is stronger and more lethal.
Otto completely fumbled the bag.
He had all the influence over Viserys but he lets his daughter do dumb shit like rejecting the Jace/Helaena marriage which would guarantee his blood on the throne and his family ties would have likely kept himself as hand.
Instead he pushes division between the factions so his grandson (instead of a future great grandson) gets to sit the throne and starts a war that compromises the entire dynasty.
By your other comment tho about Lyonel, Otto pushed for his daughter to be married to Viserys while Laena was the more logical choice. His own personal agenda clearly clouded his judgment in what was actually good for the realm. And this can be debated more, but I think his hatred for Daemon clouded his own judgment of insisting of naming Rhaenrya heir. Like if males come first you can't write the laws of they come first except when you don't want them to... Is it the King's choice or tradition?
That’s a good point with naming Rhaenyra as heir, though you have to consider the menace that is daemon. Dude was the heir for years, only when he went crazy about the egg, cheered when his nephew died and in general was a dickhead, probably reminding the lords of Westeros of the old tyrant days of Maegor.
When it comes to Otto that is true that he does use his scheeming to get his daughter to become queen. Nevertheless you gotta consider it was Viserys who chose Alicent, while also we gotta consider the Hightowers overhaul.
Said marriage secured the wealth and power of the second strongest and richest house in Westeros. Yes this is the case, during Viserys reign the Hightowers are richer than even the Lannisters.
Another point imo is the velaryons already are quite connected with the Targaryens. They got two dragons with Laenor and Rhaenys while also already being married into the targ family.
I can see the argument here that appeasing a family that has dragons 🐉might be seen as dangerous. From the targs perspective to secure their rule: they NEED TO BE THE ONLY HOUSE WITH DRAGONS!
Big fumble there to have the velaryons have dragons imo. This makes them a clear challenger to the throne.
Daemon's actions weren't even close to what Maegor was doing. He just was unfortunately able to dig into wounds of those in control and pissed them off, but overall his actions for westeros were considered pretty good considering he lowered crime. The egg incident was after the heir changed. He was hot headed but nothing close to the crimes Maegor committed. Otto clearly was pissed by Daemon aiming low blows at his family repeatedly.
And perhaps giving a dragon to Laenor was foolish, but it had been done. The Velaryons becoming rich and dragon riders put them at an influence and power level that did threaten the throne. Otto knew Viserys was easy to sway. Viserys literally told him what the smart choice was, Laena, and Otto countered that he should choose love. Knowing he'd set the path to Alicent. Like how is that not manipulative of his own agenda? And clearly they needed to secure a bond, he forced Rhaenrya to basically uphold that for him in the future.
Edit: Also, Alicent was pretty low of status. Like Otto without being hand inherited no lands and had no influence as a second son. If Viserys had married a woman of higher status in the Hightower family, that also would make more sense.
otto is too concerned with himself and his standing, he cannot be trusted because his personal motivations are so obvious.
he literally manipulated the king into choosing the daughter of a second-son over the daughter of the wealthiest house in westeros !!!
otto is also emotional and reactive because he was so easily triggered by daemon’s comments and stubbornly fighting with aegon to the point where otto loses his job.
rhaenys is way more just and not as emotionally reactive, which is what you want as your political advisor. she didn’t kill the greens when she had the chance to, and she was willing to forgive rhaenyra for killing her son. she doesn’t center her personal life and emotions when it comes to decision-making.
Being triggered by a comment about your dead wife that died a few days doesn’t mean you are emotional, being emotional isn’t having an emotion but being controlled by your emotions
agreed, and his emotions overtook him in that moment. there’s no reason to respond to words with physical violence, especially when you’re in front of your boss.
rhaenys is unbothered and collected in comparison. it’s obvious in the first scene with rhaenyra where they’re exchanging heated words in a calm manner.
Rhaenys is so unbothered and collected she killed a hundred people and destroyed a whole building just to scare them as a petty vengeance instead of "unbotheredly and collectedly" going away or taking a decisive action.
I don't think Otto is a good hand for the Kingdom, but he is far from being emotional neither, and standing up from your chair before excusing yourself and sitting back down isn't what I would call "responding to words with physical violence", you don't call someone emotional and uncollected because one day he had a minor and uneventful snap when someone mocked his recently dead wife while he is otherwise plainly collected as you say. His anger at Aegon in episode 2 shows how he finds the exact and reasonable words to express Aegon how much stupid and unworthy he is rather than lashing out.
Nonetheless, Otto being centered around the ambition for his family, I believe he is a good hand for the King/Queen as long as the latter comes from the Hightower lineage.
As for Rhaenys, though she is also unbothered and collected most of the time, I don't think she really has any talent to act as hand of a queen/king (or at least we haven't seen her displaying such talents for the moment).
>Good
If good for the ice zombies.
>The times he served the previous kings where times of unprecedented peace.
There was a war going on with the Triarchy for most of Visery's reign.
Argon's grandfather was the best hand for him! Period & Aegon is too much in his feelings to appreciate that. As for Rhaenera , idk. Maybe Rhaenys? I can see her being a great hand!
Like it or not otto is actually the best hand ever except the he's so self interested he actually does the kings work instead of the kings he ruled under and is wise in his choices viserys kept him as hand because he was good but he was gullible and unaware of how easily a man like otto cab manipulate him
Otto. I hate him but he accomplished what he wanted and if he was on board with whatever you wanted he would probably help a lot. That being said, he’ll put his own ambition above the good of the realm so..
Otto would have been great for Rhaenrya if he had'nt decided to spend years undermining and plotting against her for the sake of his own family's advancement.
They made a pretty good team during the first couple episodes of Season 1, and it baffles me why he did'nt just use Alicent to influance her and play matchmaker between her and a Hightower man, rather then throw away the political asset of their friendship and send Alicent after Vizzy.
Otto hightower is not a good hand and I don't care what anyone says, he's a great king not a hand. He is selfish and would never do something good for the king only himself
By westerosi standards, Otto. He put his house’s descendants in line to the iron throne, elevated his daughter to the most powerful position she can have in that sort of society, and did nothing overtly harmful to his liege lord
I'm about to get down voted into oblivion, but still, people just want to hate Otto, but I should remind you
- He ran the country while Viserys was weak (since forever)
- Alicent was indeed a strong candidate to marry the King, since the Hightower have a larger lineage that could surpass even the Starks, also, brings both the faith and the Maesters on your side, there are worst hands that tried the same (Unwin), also Lyonel didn't even bothered to tell the truth or tell his son to stop his actions with Rhaenyra fully knowing that it would decimate her claim in favor of Aegon.
- Otto's strategies and alliances in the books manages to get results and basically turn the tide of the war in their favor.
- He managed to get Rhaenyra to be the heir, since according to the Andals, daughters have stronger claims than uncles, Thanks to him we don't have a "Rouge King", which is for the best.
- He do follows the laws of the realm, and didn't killed peasants that were just there for the sake of ir (unlike Rhaenys, even if she isn't the hand yet)
It's not even close, Otto was one of the best hands in History, Sure he did create a civil war but he ran the Seven Kingdoms by himself when Jaehaerys was in his death bed and when Viserys became King he sure didn't do anything to actually rule the realm. Otto was the one who ruled. And Rhaenys isn't even the Hand, Corlys is.
Otto or Lyonel for sure. I think everyone is forgetting that Otto has been running the kingdom for 30 years at this point from the end of Jaehaerys's reign to Viserys's. Both of their reigns are considered to be very peaceful and prosperous and all the credit should go to Otto for that. Of course he also causes a civil war ending the prosperity so for that reason i think Lyonel.
Between the two pictured, Otto. The choice - regardless of reasoning - to not burn down all the key Greens at once was entirely invalidating and I will go to my death defending that.
Otto, ofc. He wants to prevent violence, Rhaenys in the show randomly killed a lot of people just so. The war would’ve started from that alone, nevermind what Aemond did.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rhaenys is not hand of the queen, the image floating around of her wearing the badge is edited. Rhaenyra is yet to name a hand in the show.
Yeah, she only sits in council because she is representing the Velaryons, and her dragon is critical to the war effort.
>her dragon is critical to the war effort. The only dragon with war experience + not batshit rider.
Caraxes has war experience, we've even seen it on the show. You can criticise Daemon but he's definitely a very good rider, possibly the best we've seen in the show so far
I think that’s where the “not batshit” part comes in.
You can call him a batshit person sure but when you say batshit rider it sounds like you are actually criticising his riding skills. At least that's how I understood it
Daemon is arguably the best dragon rider since the conqueror.
How good could he be if he still basically >!draws against a fairly green dragon rider Aemon? Or are we saying Aemon is just that naturally gifted?!<
Your spoiler tag didn’t work btw >!However I wouldn’t say aemond is gifted per se, he just has the advantage of size, pretty much anyone piloting vhagar could do serious damage, if they were fighting on two similar size dragons daemon would’ve hosed him and landed safely.!<
That’s fair I totally mentally glossed over >!it was as much Vhagar vs Caraxes as it was Daemon vs Aemond!<
>!I wouldn't be so fast in calling that a draw.!< >!Caraxes technically survived the fight but died to its wounds immediately after battle.!< >!Also Daemon's body was never found! It is possible that he actually survived but went underground. We've seen a similar thing happen to Leanor in the show. He was supposed to be dead but the show made it so that he was alive but no one could've written that in a history book.!<
She may also be considered an official advisor to Rhaenyra, so sits for that reason.
Oh I didn’t know that. Thank you for the clarification
>!In the book, Corlys Velaryon is Rhaenyra’s hand!<
SPOILERS >!Corlys only becomes Hand when Rhaenys dies and Jace gives him the position to prevent him from abandoning Team Black (Corlys blames Rhaenyra for Rhaeny's death). Up until Corlys is named Hand, Rhaenyra doesn't have a Hand.!<
fuck i read both of the spoilers knowing they were spoilers and now i want to go back
I know it's a spoiler and it's easy to feel like a huge chunk of the story has been ruined for you, but at the very least the way a character dies and the context associated with it matters a lot to you as a viewer/reader. I've read Fire and Blood so I roughly know where the story is going, but even still the huge moments have a completely different feel and it's safe to say I spoiled myself by reading the book. All that to say, I hope you're not feeling too disappointed by the spoiler you read. How the story plays out and how that spoiler factors in are huge parts of the experience too, hopefully that helps to not have all the wind taken out of your sails.
Don't worry, probably by the time we get there you'll forget it :D
Yeah Jeoffrey even says the spoilers for HOTD, youre good. If you dont remember
Hahahaha right!? I am a glutton for punishment.
This should be spoiler tagged for sure
I edited my post!
No problem, I had to go back and check the episode when I first saw it aha.
Yes, spoiler alert, or maybe not at this point, I’m pretty sure Corlys Velaryon is the Hand of the Queen.
I was wondering about that. I never remembered Rhaenys being named Hand. But my memory sucks, so there's that. Also, I never remembered anything about Rhaenys being named hand.
But did you remember anything about Rhaenys being named hand?
Who?
I haven’t seen this picture but I’m curious. Anyone have a link?
She's basically her hand in all but name; she performs all the functions of one.
Lyonel Strong
This is the only correct answer. He’s the only one who put personal/familial ambition aside for the good of the kingdom.
Gone but never forgotten, RIP Lord Strong sorry ur one son turned out to be kind of an evil bastard
Don’t start with him about the bastards
DON’T PLAY THE FOOL WITH ME BOY!
PEOPLE HAVE EYES BOY!!
Kind of? He's pure evil.
chaotic evil at that. killed his own brother and father for political gain. who, we’re never even told or shown that he had a bad relationship with. like, he kills his family so he can jack it to some queenly feet
Didn't even get to put a toe in his mouth, just juiced from a distance.
juiced is fucking crazy
Seemed like a good dad too. Them getting roasted was the saddest moment of the show for me
Both and him and Harwin just seemed like good dudes.
I don’t think he was the best dad to Larys he really shouldn’t have allowed him to be educated in intrigue and had him educated in diplomacy or sent him to the citadel, and he definitely liked Harwin a lot more, but he wasn’t a bad dad to Larys by any means and really had no way of knowing Larys was a literal sociopath.
How do you know Larys didn't do that? He could've just not become a maester.
That's what Lyonel did. He had forged, like, 8 or 9 links.
Crusader Kings player spotted.
Crusader kings?
It's because you said educated in intrigue and diplomacy which are two of the character stats
I mean, so did Rhaenys.
This right here. Just keep regrowing him as he is every century and let him be the hand of the King forever.
Lionel advised with some level of impartiality, that deserves some recognition.
He was my fave 😞
isn't he the only good hand? i mean ned was good but dumb for the position.
Ned was decent, Tywin was good, Kevan was so good as hand/regent varys killed him to avoid peace and prosperity
And Otto was good for most of his tenure. But his role in usurping the throne and starting a civil war overshadows it. It’s like if Abraham Lincoln’s wife said that most of her evening at the play was good.
What do you think he has that the others don’t if I may?
He was the only one who only had the best intentions for the kingdom
Still pretty funny that he turned down Viserys snarky betrothal between Rhaenyra and Harwin and they still ended up boinking.
Because he didn’t give a shit about scheming for more power for himself and his house, he generally cared about what was best for the realm unlike otto who was always scheming for himself and his family. Strong wanted what was best for the realm while otto only gave a shit about what was best for his house. If Otto like Strong had good intentions and did what was best for the realm he totally could’ve been a kickass hand tho but he was always scheming and pretty much singlehandedly brought on a civil war
Brains, selflessness, the ability to think long term, good intention, etc
It's what he doesn't have that matters.
Yeah, he would be ideal.
He had no flaws and only offered good advice that didn't benefit him. He was definitely the best hand in the show.
Okay but if you had to choose between the two?
the two?
Not really. Should have sent his son to the wall as soon as he caught a whiff of the royal cuckoldry.
Lyonel was a terrible hand. He allowed his son to sleep with the princess and play as if their bastards were legitimate. If Rhaenyra had peacefully inherited, her succession would've led to a civil war between her own kids.
You really think that her oldest sons would try to slaughter the younger ones, and vice versa? I doubt that.
At the ages they were then, no. But as those younger sons grew up had kids of their own, and saw that they were bastards with no claim to their throne, while they had people whispering in their ears that (you should king) I 100% see the younger brothers fighting for it.
I still disagree. Rhaenyra raised her children right. They were an actual family, rather than how Alicent raised her kids due to Otto's interference.
I don't really buy this idea that the feud will simply fester over the old issues. Every year that goes by with Rhaenyra/Jace on the throne would make them ever more legitimate rulers. Every year the alternate candidates aren't on the throne will bleed their support as more and more people become invested in the status quo. And what's more, once we start talking about another generation being born, that's yet another opportunity to offer a marriage compromise binding the family back together. Viserys did this with the Velaryons, Rhaenyra did so as well and even offered another to the Greens. Do we really think Aegon 'take my throne, Aemond' is going to rebel when he could just have one of his kids marry Jace's and be done with it? He definitely didn't hold the same animosity Alicent did, and when we're talking some years down the line he'll have started coming into his own and won't be as easily controlled. Not to mention the fact that much of the feud is predicated on the idea that Rhaenyra would just murder the Greens to secure the throne, and presumably once that doesn't happen it will begin to fade as well.
if otto wasn’t so self interested i’d say he’d be one of the best hands in the seven kingdoms, but his actions to put Aegon on the Throne has now spiraled into a very bloody Civil War.
True, but Aemond’s dumbass and Aegon’s ignorance and immaturity hasn’t exactly been conducive to his advice. Dude can only do so much
Yeah, but it's something that Otto could've foreseen early on if he wasn't greedy and willing to continue with his selfish goals at the expense of the realm. That isn't exactly the kind of character you would want for a hand.
But he did play a part by encouraging the rift and rivalry between the kids.
I think that was him realising that when he got FIRED 
If Aemond didn’t kill Luke there could’ve been a chance at a peaceful resolution. That’s why Otto was so pissed at Aemond for what he did. His plan had been going perfectly until Aemond screwed it all up and made war inevitable.
Well, Otto basically started a civil war with his scheming and he's unable to keep his king/grandson in check. I'm choosing Rhaenys.
He ruled the Kingdoms for 30 years which are considered to be the peak of Targaryen power and prosperity. Jaehaerys was 68 by the end of his reign so Otto would be calling the shots and Viserys just didn't care about ruling so as far as i am concerned Otto deserves credit for that. He played his part in causing a civil war so i don't think he's the best but lets give him credit where its due.
he didn’t “play a part”, he set it up and made it inevitable, then went ahead and started it himself.
He did play a part his scheming could’ve been easily done with if Viserys named Aegon heir married Rhaenyra and Aegon married Jacaerys and Helaena. He and Viserys played the largest, parts Rhaenyra to a lesser and unknowing extent played a part, and Alicent played a part. Otto wanted what was best for the realm and for his house. Viserys’s inability to solve the issue allowed for the situation.
None of this would've been a problem if he didn't push his daughter in Vyseris' chambers which is, for their time, a very perverse thing to do, especially to your own daughter. He played a lot more dirty than the image he curated.
If he hadn’t done that, Viserys would’ve married Laena or some other lady and then we’d still have a Dance, it would just be a new half-brother of Rhaenyra’s opposing her instead of Aegon II.
Unlikely. Rhaenyra and Laena and their children would have had a much better relationship and likely their children would have married.
Wrong, this happened only because Otto had planned to push his grandson forward. It was all a matter of loyalty to the crown, and Otto wasn't loyal to Vyseris and conspired with a much smaller number of individuals to put Aegon on the throne. The only reason the dance happened, was because Otto conspired against Vyseris' succession towards Rhaenyra. The entire realm was already aware that Rhaenyra followed in succession which is why she was at Dragonstone where only the crown prince of princess is meant to rule in order to learn how to rule the kingdom. Nobody loyal to the crown would've made a coup on the succession otherwise.
but he’s the reason Aegon exists in the first place
I mean, most of that peace and prosperity was made in advance by Jaehaerys, and Vyseris was pretty capable himself at managing the realm. It wasn't a situation where the king was indisposed most of the time so that you could say that the Hand ruled the kingdom in his stead. Otto mainly played the hand on the surface so that he could divide the remaining Targaryen descendants and insert his family on the throne. Then for some reason, he didn't expect the chaos that followed.
Um do you see what is going on in Flea Bottom? He's coasting on Alysanne's work.
You think Otto would have the mind to play those games with Jaehaerys? 😂 Will give him some credit but Viserys enabled the man so much by virtue of being weak.
Jaehaerys was 65 when Otto became hand I don’t think he’d be able to make it to the small council chambers most of the time lol
The one bad thing he did outweighs the good things he did, because it was that bad. If Hitler had been a good leader* “for the most part,” his legacy still would have been that of the man who committed the biggest genocide in history, and started the deadliest war ever. That’s always going to be more important than “had a good economy,” and “was a competent administrator.” *I’m not saying that he was, btw. Just making an example.
Rhaenys hasn't shown any good decisions yet. Plus she supports Rhaenyra flying around enemy territory unprotected.
So far her biggest decision was her not making a decision lol
Rhaenys isn't even Rhaenyra's Hand yet, full stop. No real use debating who's the better Hand when one isn't actually a Hand lol The actual answer is Lyonel Strong
She hasn't show any decision at all
She also isn't Rhaenyra's hand is she?? Unless I missed something...
Otto was a very good hand until Viserys died.
Depends on what you consider “good”. Were his abilities to play the Game good? Yes. Was he a good Hand for his King? No. He actively manipulated Viserys towards his own ends consistently for decades, contributed to the destruction of the King’s relationships with ALL of his living family members, got the greatest sailor who ever lived to resign as Master of Ships and positioned him as an enemy of the Crown, and actively stoked the flames of civil unrest and later war for 15 years. He was a terrible Hand for Viserys and House Targaryen. He is essentially the HotD version of Littlefinger, but worse at the Game, and obviously, as Hand, not Master of Coin.
What do you mean? He is the only one keeping their shit together right now with Aegon and Crispy fucking up. Hell, I'm still not recovered from Criston sending Arryk AND Erryk to their deaths.
But he's the primary engineer for all of this. The entire war is a direct result of him spitting poison into his daughter and grandsons ears. Even as the hand, he was playing at his own ends behind the kings back.
No, he's the reason that shit exists in the first place. Just because he doesn't like to smell his own shit, doesn't mean he isn't the main reason why the realm was in chaos right after Viserys' death
And Rhaenys killed probably 150 people+. A terrorist by our own worlds definition. Not really "hand of the king/queen" material...? Not a very clear choice here, lol.
"morality aside"
She didn't kill anyone tho. Y'all just made a bunch of headcanons online which you alone believe, but it's nowhere part of the story that she killed anyone so far.
She burst out of the floor sending concrete flying onto a densely packed crowd of people
Me if I did not watch the series
The cause of the civil war was viserys he was never able to make any decisions his solution to everything was please stop fighting and please do as I say which resolves nothing. He didn't explain how the realm can accept a queen when the king has a son now he didn't resolve the conflicts between the greens and the blacks. Most important of all he married a teenager and caused of this because he was horny
Under Otto's tenure as hand under Jaehaerys and Viserys the realm enjoyed unparalleled peace and prosperity. He must have done something right considering Jaehaerys was senile and Viserys was useless.
Calling Jaehaerys "senile" isnt doing quite enough credit to the most successful king the iron throne ever had. Most of his unparalleled peace came from the years in which Barth was his hand, and that dude was legitimately the best HotK aside from possibly Tywin. Otto did a fine job during Jaehaerys later years but it does seem like much of his time was spent setting up his family in positions of strength and building events that led directly to the Dance. He was a smart and capable hand but his loyalty was clearly questionable at best, and his actions led to a catastrophe.
Tbf, he was only hand for a short period if we go by the show. Like the year Baelon died Otto became hand which was also the year of the great council. Jaehaerys died shortly after I'd imagine from the ages.
Vyseris was described both in the books and shown in the show to know how to rule a kingdom during peace, that wasn't an issue. And Jaehaerys himself was exceptional as king. That doesn't make the hand's role as important in their reign as it might be during a reign of an indisposed king. If anything, it shows that when Lionel Strong takes over, everything works as always, and when Otto gets back, he creates dissent among the common people, which even Aegon claps back at when he plays the "man of the people" role.
There was a war with the Stepstones going on for much of Visery's reign.
Based on Otto's advice btw
>Viserys was useless Otto certainly didnt think so
The hell are you even talking about? Rhaenys isn't the Hand of the Queen. *sorry for the attitude
People in the comments corrected me already. I was mislead by edited pics of Rhaenys wearing the badge of the hand
Lyonel Strong is one best choice
TBH, if they weren't diametrically opposed, I think the ideal pairing would be Queen Rhaenys with Otto as her hand. I know it soulds wild, but hear me out Rhaenys has shown a decent ability to lead and think long term. She has temperamental moments, but thinks before acting, like when she rose from the dragon pits and chose to spare Aegon, and her willingness to work with Rhaenera, despite believing Rhaenera killed her son. She would need a Hand that can serve as a peer as much as anything else, and that would be Otto, both in terms of age and strategic thinking. Assuming we're setting aside Otto's selfish desire for family power in the "morality aside" part of the conversation, he's a brilliant Hand. He showed in his handling of Aegon this season that he does want the king to act in a way that's best for the realm now that his family has power, even to the point of being dismissed. If he was serving a strong Queen rather than a timid leader like Viserys or a young fool like Aegon, I think they would be a damn strong duo
I agree, honestly
Otto is not a principled man, highly ambitious and a pretty good manipulator. He does appear to be a moral man who does care when innocents are injured or killed when it’s people outside of the royal court. He’s very Machiavellian but did a great job in improving the lives of the kingdoms civilians. We haven’t seen enough of Rhaenys to judge what she even values or what her political capabilities are. I’d go with Otto if he wasn’t so power hungry
What lives of the civilians did he improve? the small council talks about Johanna Swan being kidnapped and sold into sex slavery and he still convinces Viserys not to join the war, because he wants to fuck over Daemon and the Velaryons by either killing them off and/or the Velaryons spending all of their money and losing men to fight a war that affects all of the 7 kingdoms, not just the Velaryons.
Otto. Not a contest. Saying this as team black.
Baelon, dude had Vhagar. Thats a negotiation advantage. Just needed a decent appendix
Lyonel strong he always gave the practical answers and did not bother with flattering the king.
I was going to say - did Rhaenyra name a hand and I blocked it out of my mind?! lol
Hey now now let’s give Cristin Cole a shot before we decide (cacklolol)
Otto seems like he’s a much better strategies it’s just that nobody listens to him anymore.
Exactly. Between Aemond and Aegon’s immaturity and ignorance, there’s only so much he can do. Can lead a horse to water…
If baelon/bael survived and was a healthy baby Otto would be the gold standard although he probably make vizzy marry his daughter and then marry baelon/bael to helena
Otto is perhaps the most intelligent and competent, but I would prefer Lyonel Strong as my hand for pretty much the same reasons Viserys did.
Rhaenyra hasn't named a hand
Otto is the lesser evil as compared to Tywin Lannister. There was still a little morality left in Otto unlike in Tywin. But mentally Tywin is stronger and more lethal.
Otto completely fumbled the bag. He had all the influence over Viserys but he lets his daughter do dumb shit like rejecting the Jace/Helaena marriage which would guarantee his blood on the throne and his family ties would have likely kept himself as hand. Instead he pushes division between the factions so his grandson (instead of a future great grandson) gets to sit the throne and starts a war that compromises the entire dynasty.
Otto effectively ran the realm for decades. It's Otto.
By your other comment tho about Lyonel, Otto pushed for his daughter to be married to Viserys while Laena was the more logical choice. His own personal agenda clearly clouded his judgment in what was actually good for the realm. And this can be debated more, but I think his hatred for Daemon clouded his own judgment of insisting of naming Rhaenrya heir. Like if males come first you can't write the laws of they come first except when you don't want them to... Is it the King's choice or tradition?
That’s a good point with naming Rhaenyra as heir, though you have to consider the menace that is daemon. Dude was the heir for years, only when he went crazy about the egg, cheered when his nephew died and in general was a dickhead, probably reminding the lords of Westeros of the old tyrant days of Maegor. When it comes to Otto that is true that he does use his scheeming to get his daughter to become queen. Nevertheless you gotta consider it was Viserys who chose Alicent, while also we gotta consider the Hightowers overhaul. Said marriage secured the wealth and power of the second strongest and richest house in Westeros. Yes this is the case, during Viserys reign the Hightowers are richer than even the Lannisters. Another point imo is the velaryons already are quite connected with the Targaryens. They got two dragons with Laenor and Rhaenys while also already being married into the targ family. I can see the argument here that appeasing a family that has dragons 🐉might be seen as dangerous. From the targs perspective to secure their rule: they NEED TO BE THE ONLY HOUSE WITH DRAGONS! Big fumble there to have the velaryons have dragons imo. This makes them a clear challenger to the throne.
Daemon's actions weren't even close to what Maegor was doing. He just was unfortunately able to dig into wounds of those in control and pissed them off, but overall his actions for westeros were considered pretty good considering he lowered crime. The egg incident was after the heir changed. He was hot headed but nothing close to the crimes Maegor committed. Otto clearly was pissed by Daemon aiming low blows at his family repeatedly. And perhaps giving a dragon to Laenor was foolish, but it had been done. The Velaryons becoming rich and dragon riders put them at an influence and power level that did threaten the throne. Otto knew Viserys was easy to sway. Viserys literally told him what the smart choice was, Laena, and Otto countered that he should choose love. Knowing he'd set the path to Alicent. Like how is that not manipulative of his own agenda? And clearly they needed to secure a bond, he forced Rhaenrya to basically uphold that for him in the future. Edit: Also, Alicent was pretty low of status. Like Otto without being hand inherited no lands and had no influence as a second son. If Viserys had married a woman of higher status in the Hightower family, that also would make more sense.
Why was there a picture of Rhaenys here? She's neither Queen, nor Hand.
The hand that never was
otto is too concerned with himself and his standing, he cannot be trusted because his personal motivations are so obvious. he literally manipulated the king into choosing the daughter of a second-son over the daughter of the wealthiest house in westeros !!! otto is also emotional and reactive because he was so easily triggered by daemon’s comments and stubbornly fighting with aegon to the point where otto loses his job. rhaenys is way more just and not as emotionally reactive, which is what you want as your political advisor. she didn’t kill the greens when she had the chance to, and she was willing to forgive rhaenyra for killing her son. she doesn’t center her personal life and emotions when it comes to decision-making.
Being triggered by a comment about your dead wife that died a few days doesn’t mean you are emotional, being emotional isn’t having an emotion but being controlled by your emotions
agreed, and his emotions overtook him in that moment. there’s no reason to respond to words with physical violence, especially when you’re in front of your boss. rhaenys is unbothered and collected in comparison. it’s obvious in the first scene with rhaenyra where they’re exchanging heated words in a calm manner.
Rhaenys is so unbothered and collected she killed a hundred people and destroyed a whole building just to scare them as a petty vengeance instead of "unbotheredly and collectedly" going away or taking a decisive action. I don't think Otto is a good hand for the Kingdom, but he is far from being emotional neither, and standing up from your chair before excusing yourself and sitting back down isn't what I would call "responding to words with physical violence", you don't call someone emotional and uncollected because one day he had a minor and uneventful snap when someone mocked his recently dead wife while he is otherwise plainly collected as you say. His anger at Aegon in episode 2 shows how he finds the exact and reasonable words to express Aegon how much stupid and unworthy he is rather than lashing out. Nonetheless, Otto being centered around the ambition for his family, I believe he is a good hand for the King/Queen as long as the latter comes from the Hightower lineage. As for Rhaenys, though she is also unbothered and collected most of the time, I don't think she really has any talent to act as hand of a queen/king (or at least we haven't seen her displaying such talents for the moment).
Larys, The Hand That Never Was
L O L
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Why? She didn’t appear especially wise nor knowledgeable so far, and she demonstrated that the small folk were unworthy to her
otto might just be the worst hand of all time! he led to the downfall of the targaryen dynasty and their dragons
1) Good 2) The times he served the previous kings where times of unprecedented peace. He did something right
>Good If good for the ice zombies. >The times he served the previous kings where times of unprecedented peace. There was a war going on with the Triarchy for most of Visery's reign.
Sounds like serving the realm well to me
Rhaenys isn't Hand
Argon's grandfather was the best hand for him! Period & Aegon is too much in his feelings to appreciate that. As for Rhaenera , idk. Maybe Rhaenys? I can see her being a great hand!
Otto
isn't it obvious that its Tyrion. he did something to Joffrey that even Tywin can't do- slap him.
No one can top Tywin!
Obviously Otto. He served three consecutive kings. He messed up on the last one though
Rhaenyra hasn't named a hand
Tywin dude managed to keep the realm from falling apart for 30 years.
Otto is really smart.. He just puts his personal ambition in the kingdom that's why he fucks up
Otto is attractive. Yet I want Daemon as my hand. Or Jace or Laenor’s mom
Septon Barth, wait that's too far back.
off topic but otto's fit in that picture is just 👌
Otto without doubt. He would win the war alone if Aegon listened to him.
I was going to say - did Rhaenyra name a hand and I blocked it out of my mind?! Lol
1) Viserys II 2) Septon Barth 3) Orys Baratheon
Like it or not otto is actually the best hand ever except the he's so self interested he actually does the kings work instead of the kings he ruled under and is wise in his choices viserys kept him as hand because he was good but he was gullible and unaware of how easily a man like otto cab manipulate him
Otto. I hate him but he accomplished what he wanted and if he was on board with whatever you wanted he would probably help a lot. That being said, he’ll put his own ambition above the good of the realm so..
It’s Otto
Otto by a country mile. I’m yet to see rhaenys give anyone sound advice
Otto would have been great for Rhaenrya if he had'nt decided to spend years undermining and plotting against her for the sake of his own family's advancement. They made a pretty good team during the first couple episodes of Season 1, and it baffles me why he did'nt just use Alicent to influance her and play matchmaker between her and a Hightower man, rather then throw away the political asset of their friendship and send Alicent after Vizzy.
Probably Otto. His plan to pair up Rhaenyra and Aegon could have prevented the succession crisis
Otto ran the reign under a senile old Jaehaerys and a clueless Viserys. It’s obvious him.
Corlys is rhaenyra hand
Otto does what's best for Otto, so definitely not him!
is Rhaenys hand of the queen?
Not at this moment. It's from an edited picture. As it currently stands Rhaenyra has no offical hand yet.
Otto hightower is not a good hand and I don't care what anyone says, he's a great king not a hand. He is selfish and would never do something good for the king only himself
By westerosi standards, Otto. He put his house’s descendants in line to the iron throne, elevated his daughter to the most powerful position she can have in that sort of society, and did nothing overtly harmful to his liege lord
Otto is known as one of the worst hands in Westerosi history. Manipulating the king to empower yourself isn't seen as a good thing in that world.
I'm gonna go with Criston Cole
I'm about to get down voted into oblivion, but still, people just want to hate Otto, but I should remind you - He ran the country while Viserys was weak (since forever) - Alicent was indeed a strong candidate to marry the King, since the Hightower have a larger lineage that could surpass even the Starks, also, brings both the faith and the Maesters on your side, there are worst hands that tried the same (Unwin), also Lyonel didn't even bothered to tell the truth or tell his son to stop his actions with Rhaenyra fully knowing that it would decimate her claim in favor of Aegon. - Otto's strategies and alliances in the books manages to get results and basically turn the tide of the war in their favor. - He managed to get Rhaenyra to be the heir, since according to the Andals, daughters have stronger claims than uncles, Thanks to him we don't have a "Rouge King", which is for the best. - He do follows the laws of the realm, and didn't killed peasants that were just there for the sake of ir (unlike Rhaenys, even if she isn't the hand yet)
Rhaenys
It's not even close, Otto was one of the best hands in History, Sure he did create a civil war but he ran the Seven Kingdoms by himself when Jaehaerys was in his death bed and when Viserys became King he sure didn't do anything to actually rule the realm. Otto was the one who ruled. And Rhaenys isn't even the Hand, Corlys is.
Otto or the Strong dude. They actually both are running the country.
tyland lannister is the Best Hand that’s even been and will ever be
Otto or Lyonel for sure. I think everyone is forgetting that Otto has been running the kingdom for 30 years at this point from the end of Jaehaerys's reign to Viserys's. Both of their reigns are considered to be very peaceful and prosperous and all the credit should go to Otto for that. Of course he also causes a civil war ending the prosperity so for that reason i think Lyonel.
No the credit should go to Alysanne. Otto was coasting while Jaehaerys was senile and dying and coasted on Alysanne's work with Viserys.
Alysanne? She couldn’t even make it to the small council chambers because she broke her hip. And what work with Viserys?
Between the two pictured, Otto. The choice - regardless of reasoning - to not burn down all the key Greens at once was entirely invalidating and I will go to my death defending that.
Well not Rhaenys given what’s about to happen in episode 4
Otto, ofc. He wants to prevent violence, Rhaenys in the show randomly killed a lot of people just so. The war would’ve started from that alone, nevermind what Aemond did.