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i think he is not crying about the dead kid or about how he destroyed his relationship to rhaenyra but about him being considered a failure. she called him pathetic, his brother never considered him fit to be a king, he storms off to prove he's a man but taking that castle is a ridiculous disappointment. he feels like a failure. that's what is happening here
It’s definitely both. Yes he feels like a failure, but the reason he feels that way is because Rhaenyra called him out so perfectly that he can no longer deny who he is. He’s spent his whole life externalizing his flaws onto other people: Viserys is just weak and afraid of him, Rhaenyra is afraid to spill blood and is threatened by his decisiveness, etc. Now he’s being forced to confront the fact that it’s *him* who sabotages his relationships and then runs away to avoid the consequences.
Rhaenyra tells him during their fight that she’s no longer the little girl who idolized him. I think seeing that younger Rhaenyra and hearing her scold him and “clean up his mess,” with Jaeherys was a shock to his system and a reflection of how he’s coming to realize how he abandons his loved ones.
Like you said, he feels like a failure, but for maybe the first time it’s because he’s finally starting to see that *he* is the problem. It’s not that he’s better than everyone else and they can’t handle it, it’s that he’s selfish and can’t be trusted. I don’t think he’s ever looked at it that way before now and it’s really affecting him.
Yeah the whole “nobody is afraid of you, the problem is nobody trusts you” thing was the dagger.
This season has a whole bunch of Rhaenyra speaking truth to idiots so far and I’m a big fan
To be fair, sneaking into a castle full of her enemies with a single body guard to talk to someone who she already knew was losing influence was kinda something an idiot would do.
It doesn’t matter that Alicent now knows she misunderstood Viserys. No one actually cares. Aegon isnt just gonna give the throne to the woman who murdered his son. Would you?
I love our queen, but she was an idiot in that scene.
It's idiotic out of desperation. Rhaenyra so desperately wants to end the war before it begins because she truly believes in the Prophecy of The Prince that was Promised, and she's willing to take a massive risk and try to connect to her childhood best friend to prevent bloodshed. She knows they'll need dragons to fight *whatever* is coming. Unfortunately, literally nobody else gives a shit about some ancient mumbo jumbo about a war with the undead.
I mean, no one else can give a shit about it because others don’t know. Which is why the idea that only two people in the family ever know this is silly. There’s no big secret there that needs to be hidden, they’re better off raising all their children with this knowledge so they understand the stakes for the future of the house.
No it’s not silly. If Viscerys told Daemon, Daemon would have thought he had lost it and attempted to take the throne by force. If they had told Alicent she may have listened but the thing about it is that everyone already believes they are on the side that is most fit to rule so whether it is to to keep the peace now or to prepare for the eventual appearance of the long night, they want their side to rise.
Frankly, the prophecy is only relevant so that they can have a call back to GoT and also so they can make Rhaenyra have no major character flaws while still make her commit to a terrible war. It’s lazy. They should have kept to the Fire and Blood idea that she is effectively a female Daemon and bent on claiming her birthright and using the power of the dragons to do it.
That’s not what I meant. I said that this prophecy should be told to all Targaryen kids from childhood. Daemon only overreacted when Rhaenyra told him the prophecy because it’s the first time he’s hearing of this at age 50 at a very stressful time.
The Targaryens aren’t against prophecy as such. They owe their lives to prophetic dreams.
And yes I agree with everything you said about her character motivation due to the prophecy and why it’s silly.
Well yeah that’s an open ended question about Daemon: If he was included in and raised for the goings on of the crown, would he have been still as eager for it? It’s part of a larger discussion about ‘what if anything could have avoided this?’ Which speaks to both Martin and the screen writers for having such fascinating stories and characters
In Daemons case, I definitely think so. It feeds into his belief of Targaryen exceptionalism, I think he’d love the idea that they’re tasked with saving the world.
He also just really wants to feel included and valued by Viserys.
Rhaenyra has been white washed to hell lmfao. It’s actually so annoying. Apparently she’s all for peace in the realm and the prince who was promised prophecy. I wish she was her book self, a much more interesting character
I mean yeah nobody said she was perfect. It’s an objectively bad decision to take that big of a risk but it’s also very in-character based on what we’ve seen of Rhaenyra so far. She’s tried repeatedly to bridge the gap between herself and Alicent even if it’s obviously futile to the viewer. She still has faith in the woman who used to be her friend. I imagine that will change drastically as we see Rhaenyra become more and more jaded and ruthless throughout the Dance
Well yeah it’s just you made the comment that most of this season was Rhaenyra speaking truth to idiots. But to be honest in that final scene, it was Alicent speaking truth to her.
He's also probably never felt this hopeless or powerless before either. He's a Targaryen prince, he's one of the best fighters in Westeros. He rides a big cantankerous dragon. He's faced armies and won.
But psychological tricks? That's new to him and he is not prepared to fight that.
Daemon wanted to *win* the castle, not have them welcome him.
He'd want to defeat an enemy and beat them into submission, not have them immediately give up and invite him to dinner.
I think it was interesting for the show to leave that question (what if we can't find him?) in the open. Although, it's also fair to say that very few people, if any, really believed that Daemon didn't give the order.
It's also interesting that he sees young Rhaenyra, in his vision. He's obviously damaged from his previous fight with her, and now he sees her younger self trying to "mend" his horrible deed. Young Rhaenyra was wild, restless, determined and rebellious, much like himself, and she made him feel good. There was definitely a strong connection between those two. That's the Rhaenyra he truly loved, I think. His Rhaenyra, however, hurt him and just called him pathetic. Which he is, of course, considering he's responsible for the death of a little, innocent child. It's painfully obvious that he longs and yearns for that Rhaenyra back, and now, even she is calling him out.
Additionally I feel that motherhood, also, changes you to possess more sensible fear & caution to protect those you love, and makes you realize how fragile life is.
Absolutely, Rheanyra thought, "...surely Alicent will see this tragedy through the lens of a (grieving mother/grandmother) mother and understand that there shouldn't be any more bloodshed." But she didn't realize that Alicent no longer has control or sway in the conflict.
Exactly. He didn’t really grow up. I don’t think there’s any redemption for Daemon, not after the unspeakable things he’s done. But to have his idealized Rhaenyra call him out, will surely have a huge impact on him.
I agree. I think part of this is him reconciling that the young Rhaenyra he loved and the adult Rhaenyra he married are the same person, and when he hurts one, he hurts the other too.
>and now he sees her younger self trying to "mend" his horrible deed. Young Rhaenyra was wild, restless, determined and rebellious, much like himself, and she made him feel good.
I took this scene as a reflection of his own guilt. In his mind he 'corrupted' her as a child and always left others to clean up his messes. And now it's being thrown back in his face.
I agree, along with some other stuff. There are many themes to shuffle through when dealing with these two and all of their different, and combined, doings and thoughts and feelings. I think this is one is relevant but overlooked
She appeared briefly earlier in this ep striding into the room when Daemon took the castle, notably standing when everyone else had taken a knee. So that lack of cusom or lack of survival instinct suggests she's a bit strange.
Her prophesizing scene reminded me of Helaena and Bran (Stark) a bit
Also everyone else cowered down and raised their hands when Daemon charged in in full armor with his sword drawn. But Alys Rivers walked straight across the room to the table and looked Daemon dead in the eye with zero fear or concern for her safety. She was so unfazed that it threw Daemon off for a sec
You know sometimes I wonder if I'd still be as big a Daemon fan if I hadn't come to this show as a big Doctor Who fan. The 11th Doctor in particular is by far my favourite, so I was already on board for anything Matt Smith related.
That is exactly it for me. I fully acknowledge my weakness. Said it before and will say it again: he can divorce rock me anytime.
I wanted to hug him during this scene. Couldn’t care less why he was actually upset. 😭
Murdering one's wife and almost killing messengers because of temper tantrums are not anti-hero stuff. It's plain evil shit. You are pretty much in the 'In-Denial' camp.
what if i’m not in denial bc i know it’s all fiction and i’m still a fan knowing that there is no purely good or purely evil adult person to root for in the whole series ?? what if morally-gray, flawed, ambitious, righteous characters that mirror the humanity in all of us were the entire reason i enjoy this universe?
if daemon has no fans, i am dead. if daemon has one fan, it’s me. who is daemon, really? idk but i love him. live, laugh, daemon targaryen🥰🥰
Yeah I like Cole precisely because he’s such a POS. If I met him in real life I’d probably avoid him as much as I could. In fiction? Let’s go my incel failwife malewife
Daemon is driven by a (corrupt) honor code that he does not personally break, which gives him an integrity that makes his actions predictable.
This is in direct contrast to someone like Cole or Larys who do not follow an honor code of their own because their actions are hypocritical and unpredictable.
Do you see the difference?
We know Daemon is going to ride hard for Rhaenyra and protect his family at all costs, even when that involves war crimes, etc. While he has said offensive things to his family members - calling them weak, etc., he always remained loyal to them (at least on the show). We do see tender moments with Daemon.
Larys killed his own family and started out loyal toward the Greens, but now he is infiltrating his way into causing friction between the brothers. His motivations and integrity are either unclear an nonexistent.
Cole is hypocritical because he pretends to have honor, going as far as yelling at his coworkers about purity, and then constantly betrays his alleged morals at every opportunity.
I'm not trying to be difficult for the sake of argument, but I'm not seeing what honor code you are referring to. He has abused Rhaenyra, is essentially an absent father, and killed his first wife. You really can't even say that he has an honor code when it comes to his family, except that maybe if the greens kill one from his side he gets pissed and then kills one from their side. That's not much of an honor code. I haven't read the books but based on the show, Daemon is self-serving, ego driven, and unreliable.
I'm not bringing Cole or Larys into this bc they are irrelevant.
Daemon believes in Targaryen supremacy, which he protects at all costs.
I missed where he abused Rhaenyra??
I only brought up the other character to contrast the lack of integrity
When she talked about the song of ice and fire, and he choked her in front of fire place is the best example of abuse. Season 1.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.
thats all cool and great but hes a wife murderer and child groomer/rapist, as well as a domestic abuser, lets not delude ourselves into thinking hes morally grey in any way
Ser Cole, is that you?
L O L this sounds like the show isn’t for you if you’re gonna be so pious and judgmental as if you aren’t actively watching and supporting an art form that portrays graphic rape, violence and incest. The cognitive dissonance is insane 😂😂
i see reading with understanding is not your... strong suit. all i did was point out that you can enjoy the character but he is NOT in any way morally grey lmao
Then the previous message was not for you?
I also love Daemon and personaly I want him to do more fked up shit, him being welcome to the castle and not having him doing some evil things to get it was a disapointment realy, then again, we should have seen it coming, he didnt have the crime hoody with him after all
I highly doubt most who are a fan of Daemon would idolize him as a *moral* character. And that goes for things he's done long before season 2 even started.
Zero denial.
Yes he is a pos, but in a world of people who deal in deceit, appear good outwardly but are ugly inside, preach moralism and constantly virtue signal but are themselves hypocrites I can respect Daemons authenticity.
He doesn’t hide his shittyness. Sure, he’s riddled with trauma and pain, and that usually dictates his actions. But at his core he is simply a child wanting to make his dad (or insert one of many ppl) proud.
thats all cool and great but hes a wife murderer and child groomer/rapist, as well as a domestic abuser, lets not delude ourselves into thinking hes morally grey in any way
listen to yourself lmao.
Hes an awful, awful person that no amount of excuses can justify the shit he does. Fun character? Absolutely.
Does he have a sliver of morality ? Nope.
Don’t think I said anything relatively close to him being a morally sound character, nor did I justify or excuse any of the shitty things he does.
And I’ll admit I’ve gotten it wrong. After having read the replies to my comment I agree with him not being authentic, and in fact being the opposite to that. Most if not all his actions come from a place of insecurity. Please miss me with the “listen to yourself” bs, it’s not kind and I don’t think I’ve said anything that has warranted a slight.
What? You said it yourself - you respect daemon for being authentic with being an absolute scumbag.
Guess why he is an absolute scumbag? Because of all the crimes, thats why
Aww that he doesn't hide his shittiness ... That is why he hides the fact that he murdered his own wife in cold blood. And it was his trauma that led to that. Such a misunderstood widdle guy.
Killed his wife yes, in the show, and that is peak depravity. I’m not excusing his actions lol, you need to read my comment again. Simply saying he wears who he is on his sleeve and I can respect that as opposed to preaching good and in reality doing the complete opposite. And yes, he is also a misunderstood “widdle guy”.
But he doesn't wear it on his sleeve. He's a murderer who repeatedly lies about/hides his murders from others because he doesn't want them to know he's a murderer. You seem you're straight up watching a different show altogether
Edit: also, since when is it normal to respect shitty people just because they don't pretend they aren't shitty? Shitty people are still shitty people not worth respecting lmao
I think you need to read the comment you’re replying to again. They’re specifically talking about heinous actions that Daemon is indeed hiding. Not wearing on his sleeve.
He presents himself a specific way where most of the time he comes off as totally confident and open about who he is, but he is very clearly a good deal worse than he presents himself.
This isn’t in comparison to anyone else, and it doesn’t dictate who can like the character, or how much they like him.
It simply means he doesn’t wear who he truly is on his sleeve.
It was pretty clear from the dialogue that he didn’t, at least not intentionally. And Matt Smith said that’s how he played it - he ordered the hit on Aemond and it went more wrong than he could’ve imagined.
did you miss the guy asking “what if we cant find aemond”? and the whole “son for a son” bit
it was pretty clear that the child was the backup option (and the easiest so of course they’d go for him instead of the known warrior)
“Son for a son” meant Alicent’s sons. We literally know this because he used exactly the same line when asking Rhaenys to help him kill Aemond. The backup option was Aegon, Alicent’s other son. In what world is the heir to the throne the easy option when he would normally be just as heavily guarded as the king? Daemon couldn’t know how incompetent Criston was. Aemond is the one more likely to be unguarded.
>Daemon couldn’t know how incompetent Criston was.
But he SHOULD have known how B&C were incompetent. That whole scene imho clearly painted well the fact that they're not professional assassins, but just two a-holes who made many errors and ended up doing an atrocity.
Oh sure, Daemon is still to blame for hiring Captain Beavis and Sergeant Butthead (although it was Mysaria who recommended them and it’s not clear what other viable plan for getting to Aemond he could’ve realistically come up with).
B&C ad Beavis and Butthead is just brilliant!
And seriously, those two, chosing "story mode difficulty" for completing their quest...
>it’s not clear what other viable plan for getting to Aemond
I'm pretty sure that's the whole point: it was not a well thought plan, but indeed pure revenge "a son for a son" without really thinking too much.
Nothing fancy like "let's hire a faceless man" or even "let's hire a competent assassin". But just hire those two sloppy amateurs... And imho, the fact that killing an innocent wasn't really premeditated, but basically done out of lazyness, somewhat makes it even more terrifying.
It didn't mean that, but it could be interpreted that way. Daemon wanted Aemons head, but he would have accepted one of his siblings. It didn't occur to him that B&C might think a child was an acceptable substitute. He meant aegon or haelena or Daemon if he was in Kings landing.
I think Matt Smiths comments and this seen shows he didn't mean they should murder a child. He was so blinded by his need for revenge on Aemond he couldn't see how B&C were amateurs
People need to stop twisting themselves into knots to avoid admitting that Daemon let the child be killed. He said "son for a son" after they asked for a backup plan. If he didn't want him to be on the backup kill list, he would have told them not to go after him. Or if Aemond was the only acceptable target, he should have told them to abandon the mission and try again later. He was smiling at the news of Jahaerys' death and only backtracked once Rhaenyra figured him out.
Matt Smith also said he doesn't like giving straight answers to those questions. At worst, he ordered the kids' death. At best, he didn't care.
He looks sad in the vision because this is the first time he's truly feeling the consequences of his actions and how it hurts the people around him.
There's no knot twisting. The actor who played the part has literally said that his character didn't intend for the boy to be killed. They've added a scene in the last episode that depicts the characters' grief that the boy was killed on his ambiguous orders. This is the same in the book. Daemons orders were "an eye for an eye, a son for a son."
The book characters are depicted as more but throat, but even in the book, his orders are considered ambiguous.
What concerns me are the people who insist its otherwise. Calm down like. He's still a shady character.
That was Matt Smith's personal headcannon. Daemon's smirk at B&C was intentional, though. And he looked smug at hearing the news until Rhaenyra called him out. It's ambiguous, but all the clues are pointing towards him either ordering it or giving them free will to do it. If not then he would be an idiot, which he's not. His apologists just want to believe he would draw the line at killing children, which I think is bullshit. He could still feel guilty about it even if it was his doing, just like Jaime felt guilty for trying to kill Bran.
Only if you choose to ignore the meaning of his earlier words and replace it with your headcanon.
He literally told Rhaenyra he didn’t intend them to kill a child.
Daemon: I want Aemond
You: Nah he changed his mind offscreen trust me bro
Daemon: I didn’t mean them to kill the kid
You: Nah he’s lying trust me bro
Matt Smith: The plan went wrong
You: Nah you totally did an evil smirk trust me bro
You’re going to be very disappointed with Daemon’s arc this season if you’re hoping he’ll just be an anime villain lol
yeah thanks for repeating everything i already said, and yes thats exactly what happened how do you not understand?
its also coincidentally exactly what happens in the books which just as coincidentally happen to be the source material (who would’ve thought they’d draw from the source material?)
That’s only what happened in your head my friend, and you had to ignore the whole context of the scene to reach your conclusion lol. But if you think you can interpret the character’s intentions better than the actor who plays him then I don’t know what to tell you 🤷♀️
Surely you’re not clinging to the source material as if they didn’t already change half of it. If they’re staying faithful to the book where was Maelor? Why was Alicent boinking Criston instead of in the room with Helaena? Why were Alicent and Rhaenyra even friends to begin with? Why wasn’t Daemon already in Harrenhall? And even in the book it was ambiguous whose son he meant just like almost everything in the book is intentionally ambiguous unless you missed the point of it entirely.
Huh? There’s no spoilers in what I said. If you mean about Daemon’s arc, I’m just extrapolating from the episodes we’ve all watched. It’s already obvious what his story is this season. (And book spoilers wouldn’t reveal anything about this topic anyway.)
> “Son for a son” meant Alicent’s sons.
Then why didn't he say "Kill Aegon"??? He has no problem saying "Kill Aemond" explicitly but then when the question is posed he suddenly goes super vague for some reason and goes "Son for a son"? You either have to accept that Daemon ordered it knowing that the baby could/would be a target, or accept that Daemon is the biggest dumbass on the show.
I really liked this scene, it was dark, spooky, and very psychologically terrifying. For Daemon, he’s coming to terms for the first time that he actually killed a family member/young child. Daemon I don’t think has ever expressed true regret or remorse for his actions until now. When he hired Blood and Cheese, his goal was to kill Aemond, and if he couldn’t be found then he figured another enemy son would be enough to satisfy his/Rhaenyra’s thirst for revenge. Instead, it’s backfired and tarnished Rhaenyra’s reputation, as well as the reputation of the rest of the Blacks. I don’t think Daemon fully had Jaehaerys in mind as a prize for revenge, but I don’t think he was against it either. To him, the boy was the Usurper’s son and the blood of his most hated enemy: Otto Hightower. When he sees his vision of what his decision did to Jaehaerys (his grandnephew and his brother’s grandson), he now truly understands what it was he did. Daemon is not a good person, but I do think this Harrenhal storyline is going to have him self reflect a great deal. I think it’s going to turn him into even more of a grey character than what the series has done with him so far. He’s definitely my favorite character in the show.
No, he did order to kill a kid, but in that scene he was actually confronted with the reality of his action and it definitely hit him, to actually see it. That and also having a fucked up surreal vision in general.
Yea. When Blood/cheese asked him “what if we can’t find Aemond” his response was probably “use your brain - son for a son” - as in kill Aegon, do something to earn that coin I just gave you. He at the moment thought maybe it’s someone else but he never explicitly thought in the moment it’s be Jaheris
Well the Gold cloak said “a boy for a boy” and they made really sure to kill the boy not the girl, sounds for me like he ordered it. But I guess we may find out in the future
"A son for a son."
He DID kill that kid.
I'm sorry but this is delulu. He feels guilty about what he did. That's the point. That's why he saw the kid. Because it's HIS FAULT.
Here’s what happened in the scene :
*Young Rhaenyra tells Daemon that she always has to clean up after him while sewing Jahearys’s head back on*
*shot of Daemon looking distraught*
***close up shot of Jahaerys’s head getting sewn back together***
*shot of Daemon crying*
Everything about the cinematography indicates that he’s crying about Jahearys / the realization that he killed a child, not about young Rhaenyra. Otherwise we would have been shown another shot of Rhaenyra, not Jahaerys’s head specifically with Rhae out of frame
I also thought he was crying because of the kid.
These aren't excusing his behaviour, but he is a warrior and fought many battles and is used to their being casualties In war and probably never have to face innocence that get affected by his actions like he is here. That's just my speculation.
I can't stand people not wanting to admit he is crying over the kid but instead over young Rhaenyra. People forget that 2 or even 5 things can be true at once .
I think the part people are objecting to is the idea that he didn't order it to happen. I can fully believe that he is now confronting the reality of what he's done, and I think that's a compelling and realistic story beat. It tracks with his pattern of doing impulsive, violent things and then realizing he fucked up. His dead grandnephew, beheaded, is a shocking and emotionally evocative sight, and it makes sense to me that he would be affected by that.
What I cannot believe is that he's a poor sad wooby who ordered a murder of his kin because he "wanted Luke's killer" as OP says. He ordered kinslaying because he wants to go to war, against his queen wife's wishes, and he saw a chance to make that happen. There's no, oopsie daisy, he didn't realize that evil B&C would kill the *wrong* kin!!!!
He ordered a dead royal son. The only other one who exists, "if we can't find \[Aemond\]", is Jaehaerys. Daemon is impulsive, but not stupid. The unanimous "wtf were you thinking" responses from the Greens when Cole tried to send one person to assassinate the sitting regent helps the audience realize that Daemon wouldn't say "Aemond or, if you can't find him, the king will work too." Even if he didn't directly say Jaehaerys' name when they asked, Daemon knew exactly what the implication of "a son for a son" is when there are only three sons and one of them is nigh-untouchable.
Multiple things can be true and I love that Daemon is a morally complex character. It cheapens that character that I enjoy so much to pretend he didn't do wrong here, *intentionally*. When Rhaenyra and the council realize what he has done, he *smirks*. It's not subtle!
You nailed it, the whole scene is built around the kid’s incident! From his point of view, right before his eyes began to show tears, He was looking at the kid’s face while his head being sewn to his body! His character as very obviously portrayed from day one, that he don’t give a rat’s ass about what people think of him! He didn’t fight a whole army by himself to take back the crabfeeder because he wanted to make Visaerys happy! He did it for his own ego! It’s more of bothering him that he never ordered that kid’s to be beheaded, he wanted Luke’s killer not a kid sleeping in his bed! Nothing of what we saw in the show confirms that he’s a child killer! He also got so mad while she confronts him about it ! He wasn’t proud of it as he always is of what he is.
100% this. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that someone so swept up in self-told tales of his own grandeur could sit there and insinuate to a paid assassin that "yeah idc who you kill, just kill a son", could then have their self-built facade crumble when faced with a visceral first-hand reality of a child victim.
Edited for clarity
I don’t know why people are saying that he is not crying over Rhaenyra or the kid. Yes sure he thinks he is a failure in viserys’ and nyras eyes. But the closeup of kid clearly indicated the remose. Also the words from young Rhaenyra’s mouth : “ always coming and going aren’t you?, and i am left cleaning up after you”. Something along those lines if not accurate. But Ofcourse he feels guilty.
While I appreciate characters having depth, I would really have prefered if Daemon was unrepented about this. It's like the series is too concerned about him not being too much of a dick, but I liked him being a dick.
He’s been pretty unrepentant up until now, and honestly I think his emotion here is less about the kid and more about how he’s been leaving Rhaenyra to clean up his messes since she was a kid. Seeing a dead child tho could mess anyone up lol
May I interest you in Ser Criston Cole, the finest Knight in the realm, the Lord Hand aka the Fist of the King and the Tongue for the Queen Dowager? The "Ser Arryk failed to discharge his duty" cunt of a man manager.
You would never see a dick as big as Ser Crispin.
They're probably trying to avoid making Daemon too much of a dick, because they're aware of how popular the character is. Killing kids is like a Joffrey level of evil, they can't have that.
‘It's like the series is too concerned about him not being too much of a dick‘
Sure fam. A dude who commits femicide because his then-wife insulted his glorious masculinity (all while displaying a badassery he could only dream of), plus him assaulting his next wife, whom he groomed, in a scene that’s a glaring nod to the first one…The writers are, obviously, very concerned about him not appearing as too much of a mere ‘dick.’
This fandom, istg.
Yeah, that's my point! Daemon has done all this heinous shit and we are meant to feel sympathy for him because he feels bad about killing a child?
I know Daemon is a dick, I just don't like that they are trying to give him redemptive qualities. I liked him being an unapologetic stinker.
It really bothered me that he caught so much shit from everyone over this, because if it had been Aemond's head they took, Daemon would have been treated like a hero.
This is the same dude who killed his wife by repeatedly smashing her head in with a rock. And the same dude who murdered an innocent butler and chucked him into a fire so he could continue grooming his niece.
He ain’t crying cus of some dead kid.
Pretty pointless killing too - it was a useless child anyway and simply served to lose popularity with the common folk. Good in terms of showing you wouldn't let the Greens mug you off, but there must have been better ways of doing it.
He literally did order killing the child as a backup plan. Y’all are reading this scene completely wrong… even fuckin Rhaenyra who is his wife knows it..
There’s nothing but speculations that says he ordered killing the kid! He said No twice to Rhaenyra when she asked him about it! He told her it was a mistake! If you watched the show or read the books you’ll know that Daemon’s character is too egocentric that he doesn’t care about what people think of him to the degree that he doesn’t need to lie or cheat specifically to his own wife that was shown in multiple occasions that she’s scared of him and his wrath! So tell me why would he lie to her! Why does he need to lie to her, above all that he just lost his stepson! A kid he raised and did nothing wrong to be eaten by a damn cow of a dragon ! Which one you think is more savage! The one who sent two idiots who misinterpreted his orders in the wrong way! Or the one who actually was chasing a kid on his dragon scared to death trying to run away for his life and allowed his own dragon to kill that scared kid! I’m personally not ok with the concept of a son for a son! But could you blame a prideful prince like Daemon or irrationally respond to such horrible murder of his stepson! The showrunners left the conversation short between Daemon and the idiots so people will argue about it like we’re doing now, It’s part of the team Green/Black deal but my interpretation to what happened, Daemon didn’t have to lie to no one even his wife and yes Rhaenyra was too much to push him away for trying to avenge her son! Even by doing something grave like killing a child mistakenly or not …. i see that Alicent didn’t do the same when Luke got Killed ! She didn’t kick Aemond out ! His own fool brother didn’t kick him out !
The scene cuts before Daemon speaks, but Blood and Cheese say "he said a son for a son". Daemon is the only man we see talk to both of them.
The phrase "a son for a son" is meant to be understood as a personal attack. Attack the son to hurt the parent.
The potential sons:
Killing Aegon would hurt Alicent, but if Daemon wanted Aegon assassinated, he wouldn't wait until after Luke's death. He would have sent Blood and Cheese to kill him after the Blacks learn of the usurpation.
Otto's dad is probably long dead, so the "son for a son" wouldn't have any effect.
Criston's dad is so unrelated to anything going on that it would just be insanity to think Criston would be a target.
Daemon sent Blood and Cheese to the castle, so he wasn't going after Daeron.
The only Green son left to fill Aemond's shoes is Jaehaerys.
And, again, Blood and Cheese say that Daemon said "a son for a son."
It’s not really high speculation it’s like 99.99 percent they ask what if they can’t find Aemond. It pans to him for a while to imply something was about to be answered and cuts away. Then blood and cheese reiterate “he said a son for a son” while planning to kill the kid. It’s very damn clear to anyone who can infer event the smallest amount of information he told them the backup plan and in the book it’s pretty damn clear what he ordered too.
It’s pointless to keep arguing about the same thing but here we go.
nothing in fire and blood book mentions that he ordered killing the kid
He also said in the show to Rhaenyra “ you think of me I’m some kind of a monster! He didn’t grin as people say! He didn’t admit he did anything! Why you think he didn’t admit it ? You think he was scared of who?
So he went to pay people to execute his revenge! And told them “ if you couldn’t find Aegon then kill Aegon’s son! it’s a son for son! Then cheese says well that lady looks like Aegon’s son imma kill her ! They acted upon their damn stupid mind because they wanna get paid! They couldn’t find Aegon so they thought to bring a head so they can have a reason to get paid! Do you think Daemon would think that if he got a Kid’s head and took it to Rhaenyra she will be happy with it? And why would he cry looking at the kid’s head being sown back to his body? Because he misses Rhaenyra! Because she roasted him for doing it ? He feels guilt that he ordered killing a kid or he feels betrayed by his wife to think of him that way, which one makes more sense!
All what you said and I said are speculations but I’m sure of one thing, If the show runners left that part blank, they left it blank for a reason! To tease people’s imagination about what actually went on or because they will reveal something about it later on.
Everyone is saying how it was a mistake to kill that kid. Yes it was horrible but he got a lot done by doing so indirectly. He put greens in disarray, aegon is making rash decisions, he fired otto the only thinker on their side, and immediately started making mistakes. Sure it was not intention but it actually worked out pretty well.
I wish they show more of him and Aemond and many other great characters.
The show is not getting better if they keep pushing the women empowerment narrative. There’s a lot to tell in the story. But it’s shown as if only Rhaenyra and Alicent are in control of the dance of the dragons
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i think he is not crying about the dead kid or about how he destroyed his relationship to rhaenyra but about him being considered a failure. she called him pathetic, his brother never considered him fit to be a king, he storms off to prove he's a man but taking that castle is a ridiculous disappointment. he feels like a failure. that's what is happening here
It’s definitely both. Yes he feels like a failure, but the reason he feels that way is because Rhaenyra called him out so perfectly that he can no longer deny who he is. He’s spent his whole life externalizing his flaws onto other people: Viserys is just weak and afraid of him, Rhaenyra is afraid to spill blood and is threatened by his decisiveness, etc. Now he’s being forced to confront the fact that it’s *him* who sabotages his relationships and then runs away to avoid the consequences. Rhaenyra tells him during their fight that she’s no longer the little girl who idolized him. I think seeing that younger Rhaenyra and hearing her scold him and “clean up his mess,” with Jaeherys was a shock to his system and a reflection of how he’s coming to realize how he abandons his loved ones. Like you said, he feels like a failure, but for maybe the first time it’s because he’s finally starting to see that *he* is the problem. It’s not that he’s better than everyone else and they can’t handle it, it’s that he’s selfish and can’t be trusted. I don’t think he’s ever looked at it that way before now and it’s really affecting him.
Yeah the whole “nobody is afraid of you, the problem is nobody trusts you” thing was the dagger. This season has a whole bunch of Rhaenyra speaking truth to idiots so far and I’m a big fan
To be fair, sneaking into a castle full of her enemies with a single body guard to talk to someone who she already knew was losing influence was kinda something an idiot would do. It doesn’t matter that Alicent now knows she misunderstood Viserys. No one actually cares. Aegon isnt just gonna give the throne to the woman who murdered his son. Would you? I love our queen, but she was an idiot in that scene.
It's idiotic out of desperation. Rhaenyra so desperately wants to end the war before it begins because she truly believes in the Prophecy of The Prince that was Promised, and she's willing to take a massive risk and try to connect to her childhood best friend to prevent bloodshed. She knows they'll need dragons to fight *whatever* is coming. Unfortunately, literally nobody else gives a shit about some ancient mumbo jumbo about a war with the undead.
I mean, no one else can give a shit about it because others don’t know. Which is why the idea that only two people in the family ever know this is silly. There’s no big secret there that needs to be hidden, they’re better off raising all their children with this knowledge so they understand the stakes for the future of the house.
No it’s not silly. If Viscerys told Daemon, Daemon would have thought he had lost it and attempted to take the throne by force. If they had told Alicent she may have listened but the thing about it is that everyone already believes they are on the side that is most fit to rule so whether it is to to keep the peace now or to prepare for the eventual appearance of the long night, they want their side to rise. Frankly, the prophecy is only relevant so that they can have a call back to GoT and also so they can make Rhaenyra have no major character flaws while still make her commit to a terrible war. It’s lazy. They should have kept to the Fire and Blood idea that she is effectively a female Daemon and bent on claiming her birthright and using the power of the dragons to do it.
That’s not what I meant. I said that this prophecy should be told to all Targaryen kids from childhood. Daemon only overreacted when Rhaenyra told him the prophecy because it’s the first time he’s hearing of this at age 50 at a very stressful time. The Targaryens aren’t against prophecy as such. They owe their lives to prophetic dreams. And yes I agree with everything you said about her character motivation due to the prophecy and why it’s silly.
Well yeah that’s an open ended question about Daemon: If he was included in and raised for the goings on of the crown, would he have been still as eager for it? It’s part of a larger discussion about ‘what if anything could have avoided this?’ Which speaks to both Martin and the screen writers for having such fascinating stories and characters
In Daemons case, I definitely think so. It feeds into his belief of Targaryen exceptionalism, I think he’d love the idea that they’re tasked with saving the world. He also just really wants to feel included and valued by Viserys.
Rhaenyra has been white washed to hell lmfao. It’s actually so annoying. Apparently she’s all for peace in the realm and the prince who was promised prophecy. I wish she was her book self, a much more interesting character
So what was her plan to end the war? When I think about it now , it’s not making sense to me
I mean yeah nobody said she was perfect. It’s an objectively bad decision to take that big of a risk but it’s also very in-character based on what we’ve seen of Rhaenyra so far. She’s tried repeatedly to bridge the gap between herself and Alicent even if it’s obviously futile to the viewer. She still has faith in the woman who used to be her friend. I imagine that will change drastically as we see Rhaenyra become more and more jaded and ruthless throughout the Dance
Well yeah it’s just you made the comment that most of this season was Rhaenyra speaking truth to idiots. But to be honest in that final scene, it was Alicent speaking truth to her.
Everyone involved can be idiots simultaneously. And that’s honestly probably the case more often than not in this universe.
I agree. Just an idiot acting like an idiot while telling off another idiot is a bit much for me
Someone needs to speak truth to rhaenyra, she’s the biggest idiot on the blacks side
He's also probably never felt this hopeless or powerless before either. He's a Targaryen prince, he's one of the best fighters in Westeros. He rides a big cantankerous dragon. He's faced armies and won. But psychological tricks? That's new to him and he is not prepared to fight that.
He took the castle with 0 losses. Sounds like a huge W to me.
Daemon wanted to *win* the castle, not have them welcome him. He'd want to defeat an enemy and beat them into submission, not have them immediately give up and invite him to dinner.
also just realized that by trying to take an entire castle solo, he was hoping for suicide by guard
That does jive with his later comment about not wanting to go out by being poisoned...
he didn't get to murder anyone
He deliberately chose not to kill the guard.
sure
Well there was one loss. I think he wasted a good bowl of venison with black cabbage and peas. No red currants harmed though.
This is true and sad.
I think it was interesting for the show to leave that question (what if we can't find him?) in the open. Although, it's also fair to say that very few people, if any, really believed that Daemon didn't give the order. It's also interesting that he sees young Rhaenyra, in his vision. He's obviously damaged from his previous fight with her, and now he sees her younger self trying to "mend" his horrible deed. Young Rhaenyra was wild, restless, determined and rebellious, much like himself, and she made him feel good. There was definitely a strong connection between those two. That's the Rhaenyra he truly loved, I think. His Rhaenyra, however, hurt him and just called him pathetic. Which he is, of course, considering he's responsible for the death of a little, innocent child. It's painfully obvious that he longs and yearns for that Rhaenyra back, and now, even she is calling him out.
Great point on Daemon loving young Rhaenyra. They were very similar until she, you know, actually grew up. He never did
Additionally I feel that motherhood, also, changes you to possess more sensible fear & caution to protect those you love, and makes you realize how fragile life is.
Absolutely, Rheanyra thought, "...surely Alicent will see this tragedy through the lens of a (grieving mother/grandmother) mother and understand that there shouldn't be any more bloodshed." But she didn't realize that Alicent no longer has control or sway in the conflict.
Exactly. He didn’t really grow up. I don’t think there’s any redemption for Daemon, not after the unspeakable things he’s done. But to have his idealized Rhaenyra call him out, will surely have a huge impact on him.
I agree. I think part of this is him reconciling that the young Rhaenyra he loved and the adult Rhaenyra he married are the same person, and when he hurts one, he hurts the other too.
>and now he sees her younger self trying to "mend" his horrible deed. Young Rhaenyra was wild, restless, determined and rebellious, much like himself, and she made him feel good. I took this scene as a reflection of his own guilt. In his mind he 'corrupted' her as a child and always left others to clean up his messes. And now it's being thrown back in his face.
I agree, along with some other stuff. There are many themes to shuffle through when dealing with these two and all of their different, and combined, doings and thoughts and feelings. I think this is one is relevant but overlooked
after this scene, who is that lady talking to him from afar? is she a witch messing daemon’s mind with this vision?
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>!Thats Alys Rivers. She’s a bastard midwife who becomes very important later in the story. And it was rumored that she was a witch!<
She appeared briefly earlier in this ep striding into the room when Daemon took the castle, notably standing when everyone else had taken a knee. So that lack of cusom or lack of survival instinct suggests she's a bit strange. Her prophesizing scene reminded me of Helaena and Bran (Stark) a bit
Also everyone else cowered down and raised their hands when Daemon charged in in full armor with his sword drawn. But Alys Rivers walked straight across the room to the table and looked Daemon dead in the eye with zero fear or concern for her safety. She was so unfazed that it threw Daemon off for a sec
He definitely did order murdering that kid though.
Daemon fanboys ( I myself am one) are in straight up denial. They cannot come to terms with the fact rhat their edgy anti-hero is actually a PoS.
You know sometimes I wonder if I'd still be as big a Daemon fan if I hadn't come to this show as a big Doctor Who fan. The 11th Doctor in particular is by far my favourite, so I was already on board for anything Matt Smith related.
That is exactly it for me. I fully acknowledge my weakness. Said it before and will say it again: he can divorce rock me anytime. I wanted to hug him during this scene. Couldn’t care less why he was actually upset. 😭
You'd think grooming his child niece and bludgeoning his wife to death with a rock might've tipped them off
Most of the characters in the show are PoS to some degree.
What do you mean by edgy anti-hero is doing edgy anti-hero stuff??? 😱
Murdering one's wife and almost killing messengers because of temper tantrums are not anti-hero stuff. It's plain evil shit. You are pretty much in the 'In-Denial' camp.
i can like whatever characters i want. pretty much everyone on this show is "evil" by modern standards
Anti heroes are still heroes and do good things even if their methods are brutal. How is killing a 6 year old even remotely heroic?
That kid had it coming. He was a menace. -Tyland Lannister
what if i’m not in denial bc i know it’s all fiction and i’m still a fan knowing that there is no purely good or purely evil adult person to root for in the whole series ?? what if morally-gray, flawed, ambitious, righteous characters that mirror the humanity in all of us were the entire reason i enjoy this universe? if daemon has no fans, i am dead. if daemon has one fan, it’s me. who is daemon, really? idk but i love him. live, laugh, daemon targaryen🥰🥰
Yeah I like Cole precisely because he’s such a POS. If I met him in real life I’d probably avoid him as much as I could. In fiction? Let’s go my incel failwife malewife
This is me with Cole 😂 incel failwife malewife is perfect.
How the hell is he morally gray? Has he done anything at all that shows he has morals?
He uhhh….uhhh…put a crown on Viserys head once I guess
Daemon is driven by a (corrupt) honor code that he does not personally break, which gives him an integrity that makes his actions predictable. This is in direct contrast to someone like Cole or Larys who do not follow an honor code of their own because their actions are hypocritical and unpredictable. Do you see the difference? We know Daemon is going to ride hard for Rhaenyra and protect his family at all costs, even when that involves war crimes, etc. While he has said offensive things to his family members - calling them weak, etc., he always remained loyal to them (at least on the show). We do see tender moments with Daemon. Larys killed his own family and started out loyal toward the Greens, but now he is infiltrating his way into causing friction between the brothers. His motivations and integrity are either unclear an nonexistent. Cole is hypocritical because he pretends to have honor, going as far as yelling at his coworkers about purity, and then constantly betrays his alleged morals at every opportunity.
I'm not trying to be difficult for the sake of argument, but I'm not seeing what honor code you are referring to. He has abused Rhaenyra, is essentially an absent father, and killed his first wife. You really can't even say that he has an honor code when it comes to his family, except that maybe if the greens kill one from his side he gets pissed and then kills one from their side. That's not much of an honor code. I haven't read the books but based on the show, Daemon is self-serving, ego driven, and unreliable. I'm not bringing Cole or Larys into this bc they are irrelevant.
Daemon believes in Targaryen supremacy, which he protects at all costs. I missed where he abused Rhaenyra?? I only brought up the other character to contrast the lack of integrity
When she talked about the song of ice and fire, and he choked her in front of fire place is the best example of abuse. Season 1. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.
Daemon has at least two fans :). He isn’t a good person but I love him (story of my life)
thats all cool and great but hes a wife murderer and child groomer/rapist, as well as a domestic abuser, lets not delude ourselves into thinking hes morally grey in any way
Ser Cole, is that you? L O L this sounds like the show isn’t for you if you’re gonna be so pious and judgmental as if you aren’t actively watching and supporting an art form that portrays graphic rape, violence and incest. The cognitive dissonance is insane 😂😂
i see reading with understanding is not your... strong suit. all i did was point out that you can enjoy the character but he is NOT in any way morally grey lmao
yea, seems like you don’t understand what morally gray means, but pop off king
Then the previous message was not for you? I also love Daemon and personaly I want him to do more fked up shit, him being welcome to the castle and not having him doing some evil things to get it was a disapointment realy, then again, we should have seen it coming, he didnt have the crime hoody with him after all
He’s a point of sale?
Kin slaying is a misdemeanor at best based on how this show is playing out… so idk
I highly doubt most who are a fan of Daemon would idolize him as a *moral* character. And that goes for things he's done long before season 2 even started. Zero denial.
An anti-hero is usually kinda naughty.
Yes he is a pos, but in a world of people who deal in deceit, appear good outwardly but are ugly inside, preach moralism and constantly virtue signal but are themselves hypocrites I can respect Daemons authenticity. He doesn’t hide his shittyness. Sure, he’s riddled with trauma and pain, and that usually dictates his actions. But at his core he is simply a child wanting to make his dad (or insert one of many ppl) proud.
thats all cool and great but hes a wife murderer and child groomer/rapist, as well as a domestic abuser, lets not delude ourselves into thinking hes morally grey in any way
listen to yourself lmao. Hes an awful, awful person that no amount of excuses can justify the shit he does. Fun character? Absolutely. Does he have a sliver of morality ? Nope.
Don’t think I said anything relatively close to him being a morally sound character, nor did I justify or excuse any of the shitty things he does. And I’ll admit I’ve gotten it wrong. After having read the replies to my comment I agree with him not being authentic, and in fact being the opposite to that. Most if not all his actions come from a place of insecurity. Please miss me with the “listen to yourself” bs, it’s not kind and I don’t think I’ve said anything that has warranted a slight.
"Yeah, hes murderer rapist pedo, but at least hes authentic with his crimes! "Listen yo your self" is the least you could do now lol
Where does it say authentic with his crimes?
Dud you just said you respect him for being a wife killer. I doubt any explanation will reach you lol
Na you’re reaching 😂 idk why, but you are. It’s obvious what I meant. Didn’t even touch on his crimes lol
What? You said it yourself - you respect daemon for being authentic with being an absolute scumbag. Guess why he is an absolute scumbag? Because of all the crimes, thats why
Aww that he doesn't hide his shittiness ... That is why he hides the fact that he murdered his own wife in cold blood. And it was his trauma that led to that. Such a misunderstood widdle guy.
Killed his wife yes, in the show, and that is peak depravity. I’m not excusing his actions lol, you need to read my comment again. Simply saying he wears who he is on his sleeve and I can respect that as opposed to preaching good and in reality doing the complete opposite. And yes, he is also a misunderstood “widdle guy”.
But he doesn't wear it on his sleeve. He's a murderer who repeatedly lies about/hides his murders from others because he doesn't want them to know he's a murderer. You seem you're straight up watching a different show altogether Edit: also, since when is it normal to respect shitty people just because they don't pretend they aren't shitty? Shitty people are still shitty people not worth respecting lmao
I think this person is mistaking Daemon being an asshole to everyone around him, wife and children included, as him "wearing his heart on his sleeve."
I think you need to read the comment you’re replying to again. They’re specifically talking about heinous actions that Daemon is indeed hiding. Not wearing on his sleeve. He presents himself a specific way where most of the time he comes off as totally confident and open about who he is, but he is very clearly a good deal worse than he presents himself. This isn’t in comparison to anyone else, and it doesn’t dictate who can like the character, or how much they like him. It simply means he doesn’t wear who he truly is on his sleeve.
Yeah, fair enough.
Did I miss something? Didn’t Daemon specifically order the rat-catcher to find “Aemond”?
B&C were like “what if we can’t find Aemond?” and he pulled a Debbie Ryan
Daemon kinda forgot
It was pretty clear from the dialogue that he didn’t, at least not intentionally. And Matt Smith said that’s how he played it - he ordered the hit on Aemond and it went more wrong than he could’ve imagined.
did you miss the guy asking “what if we cant find aemond”? and the whole “son for a son” bit it was pretty clear that the child was the backup option (and the easiest so of course they’d go for him instead of the known warrior)
“Son for a son” meant Alicent’s sons. We literally know this because he used exactly the same line when asking Rhaenys to help him kill Aemond. The backup option was Aegon, Alicent’s other son. In what world is the heir to the throne the easy option when he would normally be just as heavily guarded as the king? Daemon couldn’t know how incompetent Criston was. Aemond is the one more likely to be unguarded.
>Daemon couldn’t know how incompetent Criston was. But he SHOULD have known how B&C were incompetent. That whole scene imho clearly painted well the fact that they're not professional assassins, but just two a-holes who made many errors and ended up doing an atrocity.
Oh sure, Daemon is still to blame for hiring Captain Beavis and Sergeant Butthead (although it was Mysaria who recommended them and it’s not clear what other viable plan for getting to Aemond he could’ve realistically come up with).
B&C ad Beavis and Butthead is just brilliant! And seriously, those two, chosing "story mode difficulty" for completing their quest... >it’s not clear what other viable plan for getting to Aemond I'm pretty sure that's the whole point: it was not a well thought plan, but indeed pure revenge "a son for a son" without really thinking too much. Nothing fancy like "let's hire a faceless man" or even "let's hire a competent assassin". But just hire those two sloppy amateurs... And imho, the fact that killing an innocent wasn't really premeditated, but basically done out of lazyness, somewhat makes it even more terrifying.
“story mode difficulty” lol yep that sums up B&C in a nutshell 😂😂
or maybe the son of a king for the son of a queen? which is what it actually meant
It didn't mean that, but it could be interpreted that way. Daemon wanted Aemons head, but he would have accepted one of his siblings. It didn't occur to him that B&C might think a child was an acceptable substitute. He meant aegon or haelena or Daemon if he was in Kings landing. I think Matt Smiths comments and this seen shows he didn't mean they should murder a child. He was so blinded by his need for revenge on Aemond he couldn't see how B&C were amateurs
People need to stop twisting themselves into knots to avoid admitting that Daemon let the child be killed. He said "son for a son" after they asked for a backup plan. If he didn't want him to be on the backup kill list, he would have told them not to go after him. Or if Aemond was the only acceptable target, he should have told them to abandon the mission and try again later. He was smiling at the news of Jahaerys' death and only backtracked once Rhaenyra figured him out. Matt Smith also said he doesn't like giving straight answers to those questions. At worst, he ordered the kids' death. At best, he didn't care. He looks sad in the vision because this is the first time he's truly feeling the consequences of his actions and how it hurts the people around him.
There's no knot twisting. The actor who played the part has literally said that his character didn't intend for the boy to be killed. They've added a scene in the last episode that depicts the characters' grief that the boy was killed on his ambiguous orders. This is the same in the book. Daemons orders were "an eye for an eye, a son for a son." The book characters are depicted as more but throat, but even in the book, his orders are considered ambiguous. What concerns me are the people who insist its otherwise. Calm down like. He's still a shady character.
That was Matt Smith's personal headcannon. Daemon's smirk at B&C was intentional, though. And he looked smug at hearing the news until Rhaenyra called him out. It's ambiguous, but all the clues are pointing towards him either ordering it or giving them free will to do it. If not then he would be an idiot, which he's not. His apologists just want to believe he would draw the line at killing children, which I think is bullshit. He could still feel guilty about it even if it was his doing, just like Jaime felt guilty for trying to kill Bran.
My dude, wake the fuck up
except it did mean that, thats the whole drive for Daemon in the source material
Only if you choose to ignore the meaning of his earlier words and replace it with your headcanon. He literally told Rhaenyra he didn’t intend them to kill a child.
and you believed him? bruh
Daemon: I want Aemond You: Nah he changed his mind offscreen trust me bro Daemon: I didn’t mean them to kill the kid You: Nah he’s lying trust me bro Matt Smith: The plan went wrong You: Nah you totally did an evil smirk trust me bro You’re going to be very disappointed with Daemon’s arc this season if you’re hoping he’ll just be an anime villain lol
yeah thanks for repeating everything i already said, and yes thats exactly what happened how do you not understand? its also coincidentally exactly what happens in the books which just as coincidentally happen to be the source material (who would’ve thought they’d draw from the source material?)
That’s only what happened in your head my friend, and you had to ignore the whole context of the scene to reach your conclusion lol. But if you think you can interpret the character’s intentions better than the actor who plays him then I don’t know what to tell you 🤷♀️ Surely you’re not clinging to the source material as if they didn’t already change half of it. If they’re staying faithful to the book where was Maelor? Why was Alicent boinking Criston instead of in the room with Helaena? Why were Alicent and Rhaenyra even friends to begin with? Why wasn’t Daemon already in Harrenhall? And even in the book it was ambiguous whose son he meant just like almost everything in the book is intentionally ambiguous unless you missed the point of it entirely.
It's a show thread. It's so lame to try to flex your foreknowledge from reading the book to win an argument.
Huh? There’s no spoilers in what I said. If you mean about Daemon’s arc, I’m just extrapolating from the episodes we’ve all watched. It’s already obvious what his story is this season. (And book spoilers wouldn’t reveal anything about this topic anyway.)
> “Son for a son” meant Alicent’s sons. Then why didn't he say "Kill Aegon"??? He has no problem saying "Kill Aemond" explicitly but then when the question is posed he suddenly goes super vague for some reason and goes "Son for a son"? You either have to accept that Daemon ordered it knowing that the baby could/would be a target, or accept that Daemon is the biggest dumbass on the show.
No he didn’t he wanted Aemond. He was a genuine mistake. It has been stated multiple times by showrunner and director for inside the episode.
You need to watch the inside the episode again lol
The same inside the ep that said blood and cheese was green propaganda and daemon meant for Aemond to be murdered ?
Yeah probably that, preferably watch it together with someone who speaks English so they can explain it to you
Condall blatantly said in an interview that pausing on Daemons smile was deliberate.
Source?
I disagree. I think the tears were his realization of how much he fucked up by ordering the murder, not that he never ordered it.
I really liked this scene, it was dark, spooky, and very psychologically terrifying. For Daemon, he’s coming to terms for the first time that he actually killed a family member/young child. Daemon I don’t think has ever expressed true regret or remorse for his actions until now. When he hired Blood and Cheese, his goal was to kill Aemond, and if he couldn’t be found then he figured another enemy son would be enough to satisfy his/Rhaenyra’s thirst for revenge. Instead, it’s backfired and tarnished Rhaenyra’s reputation, as well as the reputation of the rest of the Blacks. I don’t think Daemon fully had Jaehaerys in mind as a prize for revenge, but I don’t think he was against it either. To him, the boy was the Usurper’s son and the blood of his most hated enemy: Otto Hightower. When he sees his vision of what his decision did to Jaehaerys (his grandnephew and his brother’s grandson), he now truly understands what it was he did. Daemon is not a good person, but I do think this Harrenhal storyline is going to have him self reflect a great deal. I think it’s going to turn him into even more of a grey character than what the series has done with him so far. He’s definitely my favorite character in the show.
No, he did order to kill a kid, but in that scene he was actually confronted with the reality of his action and it definitely hit him, to actually see it. That and also having a fucked up surreal vision in general.
Yea. When Blood/cheese asked him “what if we can’t find Aemond” his response was probably “use your brain - son for a son” - as in kill Aegon, do something to earn that coin I just gave you. He at the moment thought maybe it’s someone else but he never explicitly thought in the moment it’s be Jaheris
Nah he was clearly crying about Rhaenyra being out of his preferred age range now/s
Daemon “Aubrey Graham” Targaryen
Im pretty sure you can drop the /s
I never know if people will take jokes about this show as jokes.
Just reddit in general. People see that /s is missing and they're foaming at the mouth to call out whoever in being an idiot/pos/whatever
Well the Gold cloak said “a boy for a boy” and they made really sure to kill the boy not the girl, sounds for me like he ordered it. But I guess we may find out in the future
"A son for a son." He DID kill that kid. I'm sorry but this is delulu. He feels guilty about what he did. That's the point. That's why he saw the kid. Because it's HIS FAULT.
That look is definitely NOT because of the realisation he killed a kid it’s because he is seeing young Rhaenyra.
Here’s what happened in the scene : *Young Rhaenyra tells Daemon that she always has to clean up after him while sewing Jahearys’s head back on* *shot of Daemon looking distraught* ***close up shot of Jahaerys’s head getting sewn back together*** *shot of Daemon crying* Everything about the cinematography indicates that he’s crying about Jahearys / the realization that he killed a child, not about young Rhaenyra. Otherwise we would have been shown another shot of Rhaenyra, not Jahaerys’s head specifically with Rhae out of frame
I also thought he was crying because of the kid. These aren't excusing his behaviour, but he is a warrior and fought many battles and is used to their being casualties In war and probably never have to face innocence that get affected by his actions like he is here. That's just my speculation. I can't stand people not wanting to admit he is crying over the kid but instead over young Rhaenyra. People forget that 2 or even 5 things can be true at once .
I think the part people are objecting to is the idea that he didn't order it to happen. I can fully believe that he is now confronting the reality of what he's done, and I think that's a compelling and realistic story beat. It tracks with his pattern of doing impulsive, violent things and then realizing he fucked up. His dead grandnephew, beheaded, is a shocking and emotionally evocative sight, and it makes sense to me that he would be affected by that. What I cannot believe is that he's a poor sad wooby who ordered a murder of his kin because he "wanted Luke's killer" as OP says. He ordered kinslaying because he wants to go to war, against his queen wife's wishes, and he saw a chance to make that happen. There's no, oopsie daisy, he didn't realize that evil B&C would kill the *wrong* kin!!!! He ordered a dead royal son. The only other one who exists, "if we can't find \[Aemond\]", is Jaehaerys. Daemon is impulsive, but not stupid. The unanimous "wtf were you thinking" responses from the Greens when Cole tried to send one person to assassinate the sitting regent helps the audience realize that Daemon wouldn't say "Aemond or, if you can't find him, the king will work too." Even if he didn't directly say Jaehaerys' name when they asked, Daemon knew exactly what the implication of "a son for a son" is when there are only three sons and one of them is nigh-untouchable. Multiple things can be true and I love that Daemon is a morally complex character. It cheapens that character that I enjoy so much to pretend he didn't do wrong here, *intentionally*. When Rhaenyra and the council realize what he has done, he *smirks*. It's not subtle!
You nailed it, the whole scene is built around the kid’s incident! From his point of view, right before his eyes began to show tears, He was looking at the kid’s face while his head being sewn to his body! His character as very obviously portrayed from day one, that he don’t give a rat’s ass about what people think of him! He didn’t fight a whole army by himself to take back the crabfeeder because he wanted to make Visaerys happy! He did it for his own ego! It’s more of bothering him that he never ordered that kid’s to be beheaded, he wanted Luke’s killer not a kid sleeping in his bed! Nothing of what we saw in the show confirms that he’s a child killer! He also got so mad while she confronts him about it ! He wasn’t proud of it as he always is of what he is.
100% this. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that someone so swept up in self-told tales of his own grandeur could sit there and insinuate to a paid assassin that "yeah idc who you kill, just kill a son", could then have their self-built facade crumble when faced with a visceral first-hand reality of a child victim. Edited for clarity
I don’t know why people are saying that he is not crying over Rhaenyra or the kid. Yes sure he thinks he is a failure in viserys’ and nyras eyes. But the closeup of kid clearly indicated the remose. Also the words from young Rhaenyra’s mouth : “ always coming and going aren’t you?, and i am left cleaning up after you”. Something along those lines if not accurate. But Ofcourse he feels guilty.
Not just any kid, a silver haired kid!
When he realized? He realized back on Dragonstone and was grinning ear to ear about it. He was literally 😏 about it less than two weeks ago.
Like the other ones face when he killed Rheneras kid 😱
While I appreciate characters having depth, I would really have prefered if Daemon was unrepented about this. It's like the series is too concerned about him not being too much of a dick, but I liked him being a dick.
He’s been pretty unrepentant up until now, and honestly I think his emotion here is less about the kid and more about how he’s been leaving Rhaenyra to clean up his messes since she was a kid. Seeing a dead child tho could mess anyone up lol
May I interest you in Ser Criston Cole, the finest Knight in the realm, the Lord Hand aka the Fist of the King and the Tongue for the Queen Dowager? The "Ser Arryk failed to discharge his duty" cunt of a man manager. You would never see a dick as big as Ser Crispin.
No one brought up cole, are you fucking dumb?
Maybe, but not as dumb as you. I don't get offended over discussing fictional characters.
They're probably trying to avoid making Daemon too much of a dick, because they're aware of how popular the character is. Killing kids is like a Joffrey level of evil, they can't have that.
‘It's like the series is too concerned about him not being too much of a dick‘ Sure fam. A dude who commits femicide because his then-wife insulted his glorious masculinity (all while displaying a badassery he could only dream of), plus him assaulting his next wife, whom he groomed, in a scene that’s a glaring nod to the first one…The writers are, obviously, very concerned about him not appearing as too much of a mere ‘dick.’ This fandom, istg.
Yeah, that's my point! Daemon has done all this heinous shit and we are meant to feel sympathy for him because he feels bad about killing a child? I know Daemon is a dick, I just don't like that they are trying to give him redemptive qualities. I liked him being an unapologetic stinker.
We seriously whitewashing daemon and blood and cheese now??
You see, Daemon wouldn't hurt a single innocent fly.
It really bothered me that he caught so much shit from everyone over this, because if it had been Aemond's head they took, Daemon would have been treated like a hero.
This is the same dude who killed his wife by repeatedly smashing her head in with a rock. And the same dude who murdered an innocent butler and chucked him into a fire so he could continue grooming his niece. He ain’t crying cus of some dead kid.
Searched for this subreddit after watching the episode. I wasn’t ready for a kid to be murdered 😔
Pretty pointless killing too - it was a useless child anyway and simply served to lose popularity with the common folk. Good in terms of showing you wouldn't let the Greens mug you off, but there must have been better ways of doing it.
He literally did order killing the child as a backup plan. Y’all are reading this scene completely wrong… even fuckin Rhaenyra who is his wife knows it..
There’s nothing but speculations that says he ordered killing the kid! He said No twice to Rhaenyra when she asked him about it! He told her it was a mistake! If you watched the show or read the books you’ll know that Daemon’s character is too egocentric that he doesn’t care about what people think of him to the degree that he doesn’t need to lie or cheat specifically to his own wife that was shown in multiple occasions that she’s scared of him and his wrath! So tell me why would he lie to her! Why does he need to lie to her, above all that he just lost his stepson! A kid he raised and did nothing wrong to be eaten by a damn cow of a dragon ! Which one you think is more savage! The one who sent two idiots who misinterpreted his orders in the wrong way! Or the one who actually was chasing a kid on his dragon scared to death trying to run away for his life and allowed his own dragon to kill that scared kid! I’m personally not ok with the concept of a son for a son! But could you blame a prideful prince like Daemon or irrationally respond to such horrible murder of his stepson! The showrunners left the conversation short between Daemon and the idiots so people will argue about it like we’re doing now, It’s part of the team Green/Black deal but my interpretation to what happened, Daemon didn’t have to lie to no one even his wife and yes Rhaenyra was too much to push him away for trying to avenge her son! Even by doing something grave like killing a child mistakenly or not …. i see that Alicent didn’t do the same when Luke got Killed ! She didn’t kick Aemond out ! His own fool brother didn’t kick him out !
The scene cuts before Daemon speaks, but Blood and Cheese say "he said a son for a son". Daemon is the only man we see talk to both of them. The phrase "a son for a son" is meant to be understood as a personal attack. Attack the son to hurt the parent. The potential sons: Killing Aegon would hurt Alicent, but if Daemon wanted Aegon assassinated, he wouldn't wait until after Luke's death. He would have sent Blood and Cheese to kill him after the Blacks learn of the usurpation. Otto's dad is probably long dead, so the "son for a son" wouldn't have any effect. Criston's dad is so unrelated to anything going on that it would just be insanity to think Criston would be a target. Daemon sent Blood and Cheese to the castle, so he wasn't going after Daeron. The only Green son left to fill Aemond's shoes is Jaehaerys. And, again, Blood and Cheese say that Daemon said "a son for a son."
It’s not really high speculation it’s like 99.99 percent they ask what if they can’t find Aemond. It pans to him for a while to imply something was about to be answered and cuts away. Then blood and cheese reiterate “he said a son for a son” while planning to kill the kid. It’s very damn clear to anyone who can infer event the smallest amount of information he told them the backup plan and in the book it’s pretty damn clear what he ordered too.
It’s pointless to keep arguing about the same thing but here we go. nothing in fire and blood book mentions that he ordered killing the kid He also said in the show to Rhaenyra “ you think of me I’m some kind of a monster! He didn’t grin as people say! He didn’t admit he did anything! Why you think he didn’t admit it ? You think he was scared of who? So he went to pay people to execute his revenge! And told them “ if you couldn’t find Aegon then kill Aegon’s son! it’s a son for son! Then cheese says well that lady looks like Aegon’s son imma kill her ! They acted upon their damn stupid mind because they wanna get paid! They couldn’t find Aegon so they thought to bring a head so they can have a reason to get paid! Do you think Daemon would think that if he got a Kid’s head and took it to Rhaenyra she will be happy with it? And why would he cry looking at the kid’s head being sown back to his body? Because he misses Rhaenyra! Because she roasted him for doing it ? He feels guilt that he ordered killing a kid or he feels betrayed by his wife to think of him that way, which one makes more sense! All what you said and I said are speculations but I’m sure of one thing, If the show runners left that part blank, they left it blank for a reason! To tease people’s imagination about what actually went on or because they will reveal something about it later on.
Cope harder is all I’m saying to all of this..
Why do people try to humanize this filth? Hope Daemon gets what’s coming to him. Matt Smith, you’re doing an incredible job.
He's Deamon. His "If they can't find Aemond," scene says it all. He cares more about how Rheanyra perceives him than the child.
Dude please don't turn this sub r/gameofthrones, we all watched the episode. C'mon be more creative than these low-effort posts
Everyone is saying how it was a mistake to kill that kid. Yes it was horrible but he got a lot done by doing so indirectly. He put greens in disarray, aegon is making rash decisions, he fired otto the only thinker on their side, and immediately started making mistakes. Sure it was not intention but it actually worked out pretty well.
He didn't. Those two douchebags took that decision themselves.
He doesn´t care for Jaehaerys. He sees ther young Rhaenyra again and that´s it.
Friday Beers had a funny post about this lol
Dude is a psycho. He probably cried because it wasnt him doing the beheading lol
I wish they show more of him and Aemond and many other great characters. The show is not getting better if they keep pushing the women empowerment narrative. There’s a lot to tell in the story. But it’s shown as if only Rhaenyra and Alicent are in control of the dance of the dragons