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That would be a costly mistake. The Court of Appeal has ruled that Party Wall Act awards cannot be imposed on building owners by adjoining owners, see Power and another v Shah \[2023\]. If you choose your own surveyor the building owner does not have to pay.
"I have no concerns in principle, but would propose that you pay for a mutually agreed independent party wall surveyor to review the plans and address any questions that I may have".
The phrasing party wall surveyors have to use under the Act is hilarious I always think.
You are entitled to agree Awards in your favour which can set out the conditions you list above and should probably include at a minimum the agreement of a Schedule of Condition of the wall and affected structures within your demise. Personally, I would not accept the proposed date I would find it insulting as it gives you no time to seek counsel on the plans. You should in this scenario appoint your own surveyor (which they pay for). I wouldn't respond until you have a surveyor as you may misrepresent yourself without intending to, under the Act and as noted you inherently dissent by not responding.
You should definitely check if the plans are up to scratch - there should be (but probably wont be) specifications for the RSJ in question and sections showing the general design and loadings, footing in the masonry, brackets etc.
The party wall act is primarily to allow work to be undertaken and to protect the builder from having to pay for spurious claims and compensation resulting from damage. It prevents adjoining neighbours from claiming for a new kitchen etc when a bit of plaster falls of the wall and gives the builder rights of access and other protections, such as preventing interference from stopping work, for example ability for a builder to claim costs if the neighbour delays or interfere with the work.
Why on earth would you propose a mutually agreeable surveyor?
You're just creating friction, the law states the party carrying out the work has to pay for a surveyor of the other parties choosing
There is no need to mess about mutually agreeing anything
Because in law the surveyor does not act for you or the neighbour but for the party wall. Even where both neighbours agree they can still be required to make payments for work that is required for the benefit of the party wall, even if the neighbours agree it’s not required!
Look for a good party wall surveyor in your area, go back to neighbour and say you are happy to discuss at their cost, loop your new surveyor in, they will explain the rest
Neighbour cannot refuse the OP’s nomination for an independent surveyor.
However….
Do you get on with your neighbours? Nominating your own surveyor is going to increase his costs. Possibly quite a lot.
If you agree to use a single surveyor then with the agreement of all parties he can act for you all. This can be a real plus for your neighbour as if separate surveyors do not agree on something it can go back and forth. Each letter costs your neighbour money. If, ultimately, they don’t agree on matters they can appoint *another surveyor* to adjudicate and it just gets ridiculous.
You need to read the Party Wall Act 1996 and understand why you’re being served this notice. The Government has a useful online resource.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet
Listen, there is only one thing you need to keep in mind. The surveyor, no matter who they are appointed by, does not work for your neighbour. They do not work for you.
They work for the wall. It is its own legal entity and their sole consideration is for it.
Sounds barmy right? Not so much when you think about it.
If they worked for either you or your neighbour there would be cries of favouritism. They aren’t interested in what’s best for you or your neighbour. They are all about the wall.
Apart from checking the plans, agreeing timescales and other practical limitations such as hours they can work (to keep things convenient for you), how the scaffolders will or will not access your property (they’ll probably need to rest some poles on your roof and you want agreement that any damage is to be made good) their job is to assess the condition of the party wall, log that information and set out what will be done in the event of a problem.
It is designed to head off arguments about whether damage was caused by the works or not and have clear ways to resolve problems without it going to court.
If people don’t get one (a party wall agreement) they are breaking the law. You’d be amazed how often it happens. The penalties are clear and steep.
Read up on it and come to your own conclusion. Don’t just take the advice on here of “get your own surveyor 100%” because it may impact on relations with next door.
Just saying.
Source: veteran of numerous loft conversions and dealing with neighbours ahead of submitting the paperwork for a party wall agreement.
Had your neighbour been a bit smoother about their approach and had a quiet word before he went all official you might not have been so alarmed.
Like I say, take a schmooze around the internet and understand what it’s about before you make your decision.
Whatever you decide is the right decision.
I am surprised you haven't already been inundated with offers from party wall surveyors tbh. They monitor planning websites and send out letters to anyone who might be impacted.
My advice to you is to get a party wall surveyor of your choice. It is your legal right to appoint a surveyor and for your neighbour to pay (although I don't know if there is any limit on how much they can charge). Doing so may piss off the neighbour a bit (or maybe a lot) but it is important for your own wellbeing.
The surveyor will come round before the work and take photos/write a report on the state of your property. If, somehow, the work causes damage, this report will allow you to claim compensation or have it made good, and prevent the neighbour/builder arguing "it was like that when we got here". The surveyor will also mediate this conversation if it comes to it.
I would not agree to a 3 day starting time - you need time to appoint someone and for them to do initial surveys. You should not let anyone touch your house prior to this.
Personally, I wouldn't accept their chosen surveyor, unless I was sure they were independent and experienced. The neighbours may have picked the cheapest on the list, or worse, their cousin (which shouldn't happen, but...).
The really important part of this is that the neighbours are legally required to pay and accept whatever you decide. Don't let them pressure you or refuse to do things your way. That said, I don't recommend being obstructive for the sake of it, but it sounds like they are going to be doing some serious work and you ought to get professional assistance asap.
The couple of days notice is bad form - you do need to have 3rd party verification that the structural modifications are suitable - check with your mortgage provider on this as well.
The neighbour also needs to demonstrate adequate 3rd party insurance for the work. Frankly the notice period isn’t sufficient for this. Honestly there is unlikely time to appoint a surveyor and get their report within the whole construction timeline which is likely to cause issues with your neighbour.
Good luck!
OP, I had my loft done and have to give my neighbours notice of the works. They were very awkward and caused considerbale pain. For you I suggest following:
A. Respond to their notice by opting for the option that you dissent i.e. you will need a party wall surveyor.
B. Check that neighbors have architectural and 'Structural drawings'. Both these should be prepared by authorised individuals. Ask which body they are affiliated with.
C. Appoint a party wall surveyor of your choosing. Neighbors have to pay for it as it's legal requirement.
D. If they are putting steel beams, make sure it's not single skin wall as otherwise if you want to do the works in future you won't be able to do. Also that foundations can support the steel going in the walls so no cracks etc.
E. Take pictures (party wall surveyor will do that as well) but for your records do this. makes it easier later on if anything goes wrong with the roof or internal cracks etc.
F. Ask for their builders insurance documents.
All the best and hopefully it won't be too disturbing for you.
Don't agree to the in a few days option. It's their fault, people have lives and can't be expected to drop everything and deal with some new issue. They fucked up.
The short time frame makes me suspect they are doing something dodgy. Maybe that's just me but seems like a big red flag.
I wouldn't use any surveyor they suggest for the same reason. You definitely should seek someone independent to use. I would suggest your neighbour needs to cover this cost.
Good luck, again the short decision time frame makes me think they are going to apply pressure to you. Please remember they are the ones forcing this timing (possibly for malicious reasons) and its not your fault they haven't been better prepared. Be careful.
They will have to pay for party wall surveyor if you agree to have 1 between you, if not you can each have 1 can't remember who pays. Check the party wall act information on the government website
Steel beams into a party wall are generally frowned upon unless under extraordinary circumstances. Other options should be considered first. Things such as fire breaks etc can be compromised by poor workmanship etc
This is completely incorrect.
Steel beam into a party wall is a completely run of the mill approach for smaller loads and loft conversions. If every beam was supported onto a column you'd be casting footings for each one and likely underpinning the existing foundations in each case due to the minimum required depth. (Existing footings will generally be a few hundred mm deep, whereas new footings will be founded min 1m below ground level)
The number of domestic projects I've designed is in the hundreds. Not to mention the non-domestic where this is still run of the mill.
My builders 100% put a steel beam into my neighbour's loft. They bricked around it and if the neighbours decide to do their loft they will either attach their steel to it or I will pay for it to be cut back.
But yeah it's a risk. My builders were absolute shit.
Having been through this, my recommendation would be that you get your own party wall surveyor. Pick someone you trust, not the first person in the yellow pages. This isn’t to be a difficult arsehole, but to make sure that things are done properly, and to ensure an independent record of condition before the works.
In my case, it became apparent that my neighbour’s work was essentially being done by eye by a foreign builder. That’s not to be xenophobic, but it meant that he had zero knowledge or experience of Victorian working practices, so was assuming foundations where there were none. There were no structural calculations. The surveyor I appointed managed to get this mess sorted, and while building was delayed, the long term outcome is that neither house was damaged, and for my neighbour, the work was actually cheaper.
Two days notice is not enough. Dispute, appoint a surveyor, and spend today going round your house taking photos of all the walls - including those not near the proposed work - so you’ve got a baseline condition if he presses ahead anyway.
You have a party wall notice which can be used when work is undertaken on the party wall. It is a normal state of affairs to provide a notice and provide details of the works to be undertaken. How you approach it depends upon whether you want to raise a formal dispute with the neighbours and the implications of that, or if you want to carry out work yourself in the future.
It is common to insert steel beams into the party wall. A few questions to ask for clarification is to confirm that the beams do not cross the mid point of the party wall. Think if the placement of the beams could complicate or restrict future work you want to carry out yourself and ask them to confirm that they would compensate you if your future work was more costly. Get this in writing.
If you "dispute", you would use a party wall surveyor, one between you, or appoint one yourself. This is not a default state of affairs and isn't how the act intends to operate, except as in a dispute process. The act encourages collaboration, so get talking. Note if you do appoint a surveyor yourself, the adjoining neighbours do NOT have to pay. It is often stated they have to pay for their own and your surveyor. This is not correct, despite what others say, it will be a costly mistake for you. A shared surveyor is good enough, as they are recognised as acting for the party wall not the neighbours/or your interests.
If you have done works yourself, or the previous owners did outside the party wall act, then this should be considered by any surveyor. e.g. if you have had work undertaken yourself without building control or a party wall notice and that adds additional cost to the building owners work you may find an award is made against you!
If you dispute, note this is a formal dispute so you will need to inform a buyer when you sell. It would impose a significant cost on the neighbours if they are required to appoint a party wall surveyor, who would not add much value as the framework of the party wall act protects you. A party wall surveyor would typically take a record of the condition of your property and repeat to you the protections under the act.
You could at any time during the works raise a dispute and appoint a surveyor, so if the works do cause damage you can formally raise a dispute then if needed. This would be the best approach in most situations.
Fascinating stuff, OP. Although, for you, frustrating AF.
This is rather new to me so I just took a gander of this:
[https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#para\_7](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#para_7)
And this:
[https://www.adamjoseph.co.uk/5-common-false-assumptions-about-the-party-wall-act](https://www.adamjoseph.co.uk/5-common-false-assumptions-about-the-party-wall-act)
Thankfully, this appears to be a well covered and documented area of law so tons of resources are available.
Me? I would tell the neighbor to GTFO with his 3 days from now start date. And, as someone else has said, the use of steel beams *may* be problematic. You need to employ a surveyor, of your choosing, but at the neighbor's cost.
Is it just me or have they included the dispute thing as a bit of a scare tatic, as if you try to sell you would have to mention the dispute which could put buyers off and thus you're more likely to just agree to the works? Or am I just looking for a fight?! Lol
Nah, it's a requirement.
Basically party wall act (paraphrasing a lot) says that they have to send you a letter that says:
We want to do some work on our side of the shared wall. We'd ideally like to start in X days but as per the party wall act, you can decline and at our cost have the work checked by a surveyor, if they confirm it's ok, we'll be starting in 8 weeks, which is the minimum notice we have to give.
If you don't like the surveyor we're suggesting, you can pick one yourself at our cost.
I'd swerve. It's all risk to you; no benefits. Do it politely but clearly in a short letter sent registered mail. Legally you do not need to provide a reason.
Option 1: agree and the works proceed. The neighbour is grateful to you for saving ~£1000, but absolutely should buy you a case of wine/similar to say thank you.
Option 2: dissent and have a surveyor draw up an agreement that states the legal rights you have anyway (i.e. if they damage your property, they'll have to put it right). The work proceeds anyway, and the neighbour rightly hates you for wasting ~£1000.
Summary: Agree, and take photos of the condition of your property, so you are able to prove any damage. Receive gifts and gratitude.
The party wall act is a complete waste of space for everyone except ambulance chasing surveyors.
Allow the dodgy neighbours trying to guilt you into acting the way they want to bully you into doing what they want?
Fuck that shit
The neighbours didn't suddenly find out this was happening 3 days before or even 2 months before. That they didn't have the decency to come and speak about it when it's literally next door tells me they probably aren't going to be easy to deal with should things go wrong.
The neighbour probably didn't know the party wall act was a thing. Most people discover it when their builder says "so you've got the party wall consents then" and the customer says "what?".
The neighbour is clearly decent, if a little clueless. An unscrupulous neighbour would feign ignorance, proceed without the notice, and the OP would be none the wiser.
The general Reddit consensus is "it's not my money, so fuck it". That's such a selfish outlook, and highlights everything wrong with Reddit teenagers who have never owned, let alone built, a house. All authorative sources (e.g. Homeowners alliance, or the actual government guide) say that in simple situations, like this, the OP should consent.
The party wall act confers you literally no rights that don't exist in other laws: noise, damage etc.
The OPs only real concern is whether steels on the party wall is an appropriate structural design, and whether it could damage their property. I agree it's unusual. I've not seen the structural design, but a goal post would be more typical, or a box frame for a smaller foundation. A surveyor cannot advise on the suitability of the structural engineering, so the proposed party wall agreement will be "wait and see, if there is any damage the neighbour pays". It probably is the right design - we haven't seen the plans. Even if it's not, if the neighbour wants to take on the risk and be liable for anything going wrong, that's their choice, and the OP can't do anything about it.
The answer is to consent, and record the condition of your property so that you can claim any damage should it arise. Belt and braces is to ask to see the neighbours home insurance and builders liability insurance before any damage has even happened. To spend hundreds or thousands of their money on pointless paperwork of no benefit to anyone is a dick move.
I doubt a builder is going to get 3 days out on a job and only then be worrying about the paper work. Jobs take time to organise and book etc and this being something g that could clearly take time to sort they don't want to be out of work due to a job not going ahead. 3 days is a pressure tactic imo although I suppose you could conceed not very professional or organised builders which isn't much better.
They could have gone without the notice true but that's more about self preservation and the risk it would put them in than how it effects their neighbour.
Not getting the survey is going to make it much harder to prove damage and avoid any claims of it already being like that, on its way to being etc. You seem very confident of the good will of not just the neighbour but more importantly any insurance company which as we all know will be looking for any reason to avoid paying out on any claim or atleast has been the issue I have faced.
You say it's a simple situation but then plenty of folks here including yourself saying this isn't the simple or most common way in which this work is done or "unusual" if you prefer.
I'll admit this is my ignorance of the details of what work is to be done but it seems odd to me not having both sides of the wall surveyed when planning work on it especially unusual work? Seems like common sense. Seems like "oh we didn't know about that" is something you don't want the builders to say? Again I this might not be the case
It's not at all about being a dick it's about the people who want work done on their house covering the costs associated with their work. OP has nothing to gain from this and only risk to take, why on earth should they? Especially for people that cant even take the time or consideration to come and speak to them so beign neighbourly is already out the window. I'm not saying they should deny the works full stop.
Put into writing that you object and you are in dispute
You should protect yourself from issues arising from the works even if standard for their builder
They will probably be pissed as now they have to pay for a party wall surveyor AND ALSO YOUR nominated surveyor. Make sure you find a reputable one otherwise they could screw you and your neighbour
They have obviously been caught out by the party wall act otherwise they would have done it 2 months ago so that they could start on their proposed date regardless (assuming they could agree before that date arrived)
Yep it's definitely following the procedure. Which is good. At least they are doing that. If you are happy you can just agree, but I would want to know why they haven't done something different than beams into the party wall, like have they ruled out other options that are less detrimental to you.
What about having a conversation with them? The works will have a significant impact on them in terms of noise, workman, potential damage etc, for a period of multiple weeks, they can’t even speak to them. It’s the note that seems spineless.
This. They lterally have the prescribed two monthe notice documentation under s2 of the act.
The surveyors will also perform a schedule of condition survey as evidence in case they cause any damage.
They are pushing for work to start in 3 days. That means they've definitely known about the potential works for weeks or months now. They haven't mentioned it despite literally living on the others idea of a wall from them.
Beams are usually uprights or horizontals. It is not normal to chase out walls to to set beams unless the width is very low
I would definitely get a structural surveyors advice. Usually a cross beam eg opening up between front room back room is supported by two uprights and a cross beam at foundation level. Called picture window
You can proceed with their appointed party wall surveyor as the "agreed surveyor". Under the party wall act the surveyor is required to be independent and represent the interests of both you and your neighbour equally.
That being said, if it were my property I would want my own party wall surveyor for my peace of mind. You are perfectly entitled to have your own surveyor at your neighbours expense.
Many years ago my neighbours did a similar thing when they built a loft extension. We got home from work to find our bathroom tiles on the floor and in the bath. They had to come and re tile our bathroom.
We approached our neighbours re party wall agreements months in advance of the works, gave them plenty of time to consider, gave them links to all the plans, planning approval, builder/architect details etc - they all signed the party wall agreement no bother. Our builder wouldn’t arrange a start date until the agreements were all signed.
Your moron neighbour has dropped the ball, this does not reflect well on them or the people they’ll be using for the work. Even if you sign, they’ll are liable for any damage caused but proving it can be harder.
In this case i’d advise your neighbour in writing you dissent, find a surveyor specialising in party wall assessments and tell your neighbour who you wish to use and that you don’t want to share the same surveyor, your neighbours should pay for your surveyor. They will assess and come up with a schedule/agreed plan and sign the PW agreement.
Take photos of all your internal walls and external photos (including in the loft) the day before the works start, get a copy of the builders PL insurance and check the council planning portal.
You can’t stop them doing to works, but you can ensure you are minimising the risk to your property.
Is their insurance going to cover any damages? What if you have to leave home and get a hotel, who is paying?
Write a document, dot all Is and cross Ts.
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Choose your own surveyor. Neighbour has to pay. This is a requirement of the Party Wall Act.
That would be a costly mistake. The Court of Appeal has ruled that Party Wall Act awards cannot be imposed on building owners by adjoining owners, see Power and another v Shah \[2023\]. If you choose your own surveyor the building owner does not have to pay.
I was referring to the neighbour having to pay for both surveyors. The project here hasn't got to the award stage.
The surveyors payment is part of an award. Therefore the adjoining owners surveyor cannot impose this on the building owner.
"I have no concerns in principle, but would propose that you pay for a mutually agreed independent party wall surveyor to review the plans and address any questions that I may have".
Nice, this seems like a fair response, looking at the other replies as well
The phrasing party wall surveyors have to use under the Act is hilarious I always think. You are entitled to agree Awards in your favour which can set out the conditions you list above and should probably include at a minimum the agreement of a Schedule of Condition of the wall and affected structures within your demise. Personally, I would not accept the proposed date I would find it insulting as it gives you no time to seek counsel on the plans. You should in this scenario appoint your own surveyor (which they pay for). I wouldn't respond until you have a surveyor as you may misrepresent yourself without intending to, under the Act and as noted you inherently dissent by not responding. You should definitely check if the plans are up to scratch - there should be (but probably wont be) specifications for the RSJ in question and sections showing the general design and loadings, footing in the masonry, brackets etc.
Party Wall Act. A surveyor at their expense and a Party Wall agreement document to sign. It covers you if they fuck it up.
The party wall act is primarily to allow work to be undertaken and to protect the builder from having to pay for spurious claims and compensation resulting from damage. It prevents adjoining neighbours from claiming for a new kitchen etc when a bit of plaster falls of the wall and gives the builder rights of access and other protections, such as preventing interference from stopping work, for example ability for a builder to claim costs if the neighbour delays or interfere with the work.
Why on earth would you propose a mutually agreeable surveyor? You're just creating friction, the law states the party carrying out the work has to pay for a surveyor of the other parties choosing There is no need to mess about mutually agreeing anything
Can I choose a surveyor that gives a kickback?
Because in law the surveyor does not act for you or the neighbour but for the party wall. Even where both neighbours agree they can still be required to make payments for work that is required for the benefit of the party wall, even if the neighbours agree it’s not required!
Look for a good party wall surveyor in your area, go back to neighbour and say you are happy to discuss at their cost, loop your new surveyor in, they will explain the rest
Go for the surveyor. It's at their cost and it'll give you peace of mind.
but choose your own
This is the safest option that gives you the most protection. However, if you plan to do any works in the future they will likely return the favour!
Yes ..... but being nice puts OP at risk and still doesn't guarantee the neighbour will not insist on two surveyors going forward.
Neighbour cannot refuse the OP’s nomination for an independent surveyor. However…. Do you get on with your neighbours? Nominating your own surveyor is going to increase his costs. Possibly quite a lot. If you agree to use a single surveyor then with the agreement of all parties he can act for you all. This can be a real plus for your neighbour as if separate surveyors do not agree on something it can go back and forth. Each letter costs your neighbour money. If, ultimately, they don’t agree on matters they can appoint *another surveyor* to adjudicate and it just gets ridiculous. You need to read the Party Wall Act 1996 and understand why you’re being served this notice. The Government has a useful online resource. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet Listen, there is only one thing you need to keep in mind. The surveyor, no matter who they are appointed by, does not work for your neighbour. They do not work for you. They work for the wall. It is its own legal entity and their sole consideration is for it. Sounds barmy right? Not so much when you think about it. If they worked for either you or your neighbour there would be cries of favouritism. They aren’t interested in what’s best for you or your neighbour. They are all about the wall. Apart from checking the plans, agreeing timescales and other practical limitations such as hours they can work (to keep things convenient for you), how the scaffolders will or will not access your property (they’ll probably need to rest some poles on your roof and you want agreement that any damage is to be made good) their job is to assess the condition of the party wall, log that information and set out what will be done in the event of a problem. It is designed to head off arguments about whether damage was caused by the works or not and have clear ways to resolve problems without it going to court. If people don’t get one (a party wall agreement) they are breaking the law. You’d be amazed how often it happens. The penalties are clear and steep. Read up on it and come to your own conclusion. Don’t just take the advice on here of “get your own surveyor 100%” because it may impact on relations with next door. Just saying. Source: veteran of numerous loft conversions and dealing with neighbours ahead of submitting the paperwork for a party wall agreement. Had your neighbour been a bit smoother about their approach and had a quiet word before he went all official you might not have been so alarmed. Like I say, take a schmooze around the internet and understand what it’s about before you make your decision. Whatever you decide is the right decision.
I am surprised you haven't already been inundated with offers from party wall surveyors tbh. They monitor planning websites and send out letters to anyone who might be impacted. My advice to you is to get a party wall surveyor of your choice. It is your legal right to appoint a surveyor and for your neighbour to pay (although I don't know if there is any limit on how much they can charge). Doing so may piss off the neighbour a bit (or maybe a lot) but it is important for your own wellbeing. The surveyor will come round before the work and take photos/write a report on the state of your property. If, somehow, the work causes damage, this report will allow you to claim compensation or have it made good, and prevent the neighbour/builder arguing "it was like that when we got here". The surveyor will also mediate this conversation if it comes to it. I would not agree to a 3 day starting time - you need time to appoint someone and for them to do initial surveys. You should not let anyone touch your house prior to this. Personally, I wouldn't accept their chosen surveyor, unless I was sure they were independent and experienced. The neighbours may have picked the cheapest on the list, or worse, their cousin (which shouldn't happen, but...). The really important part of this is that the neighbours are legally required to pay and accept whatever you decide. Don't let them pressure you or refuse to do things your way. That said, I don't recommend being obstructive for the sake of it, but it sounds like they are going to be doing some serious work and you ought to get professional assistance asap.
Sounds like works are permitted development
The couple of days notice is bad form - you do need to have 3rd party verification that the structural modifications are suitable - check with your mortgage provider on this as well. The neighbour also needs to demonstrate adequate 3rd party insurance for the work. Frankly the notice period isn’t sufficient for this. Honestly there is unlikely time to appoint a surveyor and get their report within the whole construction timeline which is likely to cause issues with your neighbour. Good luck!
OP, I had my loft done and have to give my neighbours notice of the works. They were very awkward and caused considerbale pain. For you I suggest following: A. Respond to their notice by opting for the option that you dissent i.e. you will need a party wall surveyor. B. Check that neighbors have architectural and 'Structural drawings'. Both these should be prepared by authorised individuals. Ask which body they are affiliated with. C. Appoint a party wall surveyor of your choosing. Neighbors have to pay for it as it's legal requirement. D. If they are putting steel beams, make sure it's not single skin wall as otherwise if you want to do the works in future you won't be able to do. Also that foundations can support the steel going in the walls so no cracks etc. E. Take pictures (party wall surveyor will do that as well) but for your records do this. makes it easier later on if anything goes wrong with the roof or internal cracks etc. F. Ask for their builders insurance documents. All the best and hopefully it won't be too disturbing for you.
Don't agree to the in a few days option. It's their fault, people have lives and can't be expected to drop everything and deal with some new issue. They fucked up. The short time frame makes me suspect they are doing something dodgy. Maybe that's just me but seems like a big red flag. I wouldn't use any surveyor they suggest for the same reason. You definitely should seek someone independent to use. I would suggest your neighbour needs to cover this cost. Good luck, again the short decision time frame makes me think they are going to apply pressure to you. Please remember they are the ones forcing this timing (possibly for malicious reasons) and its not your fault they haven't been better prepared. Be careful.
They will have to pay for party wall surveyor if you agree to have 1 between you, if not you can each have 1 can't remember who pays. Check the party wall act information on the government website
I belive the person getting the building work done is the one who pays. Including if the neighbour wants to get a separate survey.
Also do get a civil engineers structural report. And the surveyor. For their cost.
It will be a structural engineer who will need to provide details of the structural modifications for building control.
Steel beams into a party wall are generally frowned upon unless under extraordinary circumstances. Other options should be considered first. Things such as fire breaks etc can be compromised by poor workmanship etc
This is completely incorrect. Steel beam into a party wall is a completely run of the mill approach for smaller loads and loft conversions. If every beam was supported onto a column you'd be casting footings for each one and likely underpinning the existing foundations in each case due to the minimum required depth. (Existing footings will generally be a few hundred mm deep, whereas new footings will be founded min 1m below ground level) The number of domestic projects I've designed is in the hundreds. Not to mention the non-domestic where this is still run of the mill.
I have 11 beams going in at the moment. Hardly frowned upon. This is really incorrect
My builders 100% put a steel beam into my neighbour's loft. They bricked around it and if the neighbours decide to do their loft they will either attach their steel to it or I will pay for it to be cut back. But yeah it's a risk. My builders were absolute shit.
Nonsense.
Having been through this, my recommendation would be that you get your own party wall surveyor. Pick someone you trust, not the first person in the yellow pages. This isn’t to be a difficult arsehole, but to make sure that things are done properly, and to ensure an independent record of condition before the works. In my case, it became apparent that my neighbour’s work was essentially being done by eye by a foreign builder. That’s not to be xenophobic, but it meant that he had zero knowledge or experience of Victorian working practices, so was assuming foundations where there were none. There were no structural calculations. The surveyor I appointed managed to get this mess sorted, and while building was delayed, the long term outcome is that neither house was damaged, and for my neighbour, the work was actually cheaper. Two days notice is not enough. Dispute, appoint a surveyor, and spend today going round your house taking photos of all the walls - including those not near the proposed work - so you’ve got a baseline condition if he presses ahead anyway.
You have a party wall notice which can be used when work is undertaken on the party wall. It is a normal state of affairs to provide a notice and provide details of the works to be undertaken. How you approach it depends upon whether you want to raise a formal dispute with the neighbours and the implications of that, or if you want to carry out work yourself in the future. It is common to insert steel beams into the party wall. A few questions to ask for clarification is to confirm that the beams do not cross the mid point of the party wall. Think if the placement of the beams could complicate or restrict future work you want to carry out yourself and ask them to confirm that they would compensate you if your future work was more costly. Get this in writing. If you "dispute", you would use a party wall surveyor, one between you, or appoint one yourself. This is not a default state of affairs and isn't how the act intends to operate, except as in a dispute process. The act encourages collaboration, so get talking. Note if you do appoint a surveyor yourself, the adjoining neighbours do NOT have to pay. It is often stated they have to pay for their own and your surveyor. This is not correct, despite what others say, it will be a costly mistake for you. A shared surveyor is good enough, as they are recognised as acting for the party wall not the neighbours/or your interests. If you have done works yourself, or the previous owners did outside the party wall act, then this should be considered by any surveyor. e.g. if you have had work undertaken yourself without building control or a party wall notice and that adds additional cost to the building owners work you may find an award is made against you! If you dispute, note this is a formal dispute so you will need to inform a buyer when you sell. It would impose a significant cost on the neighbours if they are required to appoint a party wall surveyor, who would not add much value as the framework of the party wall act protects you. A party wall surveyor would typically take a record of the condition of your property and repeat to you the protections under the act. You could at any time during the works raise a dispute and appoint a surveyor, so if the works do cause damage you can formally raise a dispute then if needed. This would be the best approach in most situations.
Thank you for this detailed response, super useful
Fascinating stuff, OP. Although, for you, frustrating AF. This is rather new to me so I just took a gander of this: [https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#para\_7](https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#para_7) And this: [https://www.adamjoseph.co.uk/5-common-false-assumptions-about-the-party-wall-act](https://www.adamjoseph.co.uk/5-common-false-assumptions-about-the-party-wall-act) Thankfully, this appears to be a well covered and documented area of law so tons of resources are available. Me? I would tell the neighbor to GTFO with his 3 days from now start date. And, as someone else has said, the use of steel beams *may* be problematic. You need to employ a surveyor, of your choosing, but at the neighbor's cost.
Most of the buildings in the county have a party wall, so yes it is a well documented area of law.
I've only ever done the detached thing so it's never been a concern. 🤷
I work in property and party wall awards are something you really want to avoid. They’re a fucking nightmare.
Is it just me or have they included the dispute thing as a bit of a scare tatic, as if you try to sell you would have to mention the dispute which could put buyers off and thus you're more likely to just agree to the works? Or am I just looking for a fight?! Lol
Nah, it's a requirement. Basically party wall act (paraphrasing a lot) says that they have to send you a letter that says: We want to do some work on our side of the shared wall. We'd ideally like to start in X days but as per the party wall act, you can decline and at our cost have the work checked by a surveyor, if they confirm it's ok, we'll be starting in 8 weeks, which is the minimum notice we have to give. If you don't like the surveyor we're suggesting, you can pick one yourself at our cost.
Relocate to get peace of mind
I'd swerve. It's all risk to you; no benefits. Do it politely but clearly in a short letter sent registered mail. Legally you do not need to provide a reason.
Option 1: agree and the works proceed. The neighbour is grateful to you for saving ~£1000, but absolutely should buy you a case of wine/similar to say thank you. Option 2: dissent and have a surveyor draw up an agreement that states the legal rights you have anyway (i.e. if they damage your property, they'll have to put it right). The work proceeds anyway, and the neighbour rightly hates you for wasting ~£1000. Summary: Agree, and take photos of the condition of your property, so you are able to prove any damage. Receive gifts and gratitude. The party wall act is a complete waste of space for everyone except ambulance chasing surveyors.
Allow the dodgy neighbours trying to guilt you into acting the way they want to bully you into doing what they want? Fuck that shit The neighbours didn't suddenly find out this was happening 3 days before or even 2 months before. That they didn't have the decency to come and speak about it when it's literally next door tells me they probably aren't going to be easy to deal with should things go wrong.
The neighbour probably didn't know the party wall act was a thing. Most people discover it when their builder says "so you've got the party wall consents then" and the customer says "what?". The neighbour is clearly decent, if a little clueless. An unscrupulous neighbour would feign ignorance, proceed without the notice, and the OP would be none the wiser. The general Reddit consensus is "it's not my money, so fuck it". That's such a selfish outlook, and highlights everything wrong with Reddit teenagers who have never owned, let alone built, a house. All authorative sources (e.g. Homeowners alliance, or the actual government guide) say that in simple situations, like this, the OP should consent. The party wall act confers you literally no rights that don't exist in other laws: noise, damage etc. The OPs only real concern is whether steels on the party wall is an appropriate structural design, and whether it could damage their property. I agree it's unusual. I've not seen the structural design, but a goal post would be more typical, or a box frame for a smaller foundation. A surveyor cannot advise on the suitability of the structural engineering, so the proposed party wall agreement will be "wait and see, if there is any damage the neighbour pays". It probably is the right design - we haven't seen the plans. Even if it's not, if the neighbour wants to take on the risk and be liable for anything going wrong, that's their choice, and the OP can't do anything about it. The answer is to consent, and record the condition of your property so that you can claim any damage should it arise. Belt and braces is to ask to see the neighbours home insurance and builders liability insurance before any damage has even happened. To spend hundreds or thousands of their money on pointless paperwork of no benefit to anyone is a dick move.
I doubt a builder is going to get 3 days out on a job and only then be worrying about the paper work. Jobs take time to organise and book etc and this being something g that could clearly take time to sort they don't want to be out of work due to a job not going ahead. 3 days is a pressure tactic imo although I suppose you could conceed not very professional or organised builders which isn't much better. They could have gone without the notice true but that's more about self preservation and the risk it would put them in than how it effects their neighbour. Not getting the survey is going to make it much harder to prove damage and avoid any claims of it already being like that, on its way to being etc. You seem very confident of the good will of not just the neighbour but more importantly any insurance company which as we all know will be looking for any reason to avoid paying out on any claim or atleast has been the issue I have faced. You say it's a simple situation but then plenty of folks here including yourself saying this isn't the simple or most common way in which this work is done or "unusual" if you prefer. I'll admit this is my ignorance of the details of what work is to be done but it seems odd to me not having both sides of the wall surveyed when planning work on it especially unusual work? Seems like common sense. Seems like "oh we didn't know about that" is something you don't want the builders to say? Again I this might not be the case It's not at all about being a dick it's about the people who want work done on their house covering the costs associated with their work. OP has nothing to gain from this and only risk to take, why on earth should they? Especially for people that cant even take the time or consideration to come and speak to them so beign neighbourly is already out the window. I'm not saying they should deny the works full stop.
Put into writing that you object and you are in dispute You should protect yourself from issues arising from the works even if standard for their builder They will probably be pissed as now they have to pay for a party wall surveyor AND ALSO YOUR nominated surveyor. Make sure you find a reputable one otherwise they could screw you and your neighbour
They should have at least tried to speak in person.
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They have obviously been caught out by the party wall act otherwise they would have done it 2 months ago so that they could start on their proposed date regardless (assuming they could agree before that date arrived)
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Yep it's definitely following the procedure. Which is good. At least they are doing that. If you are happy you can just agree, but I would want to know why they haven't done something different than beams into the party wall, like have they ruled out other options that are less detrimental to you.
What about having a conversation with them? The works will have a significant impact on them in terms of noise, workman, potential damage etc, for a period of multiple weeks, they can’t even speak to them. It’s the note that seems spineless.
Exactly. The OP also mentions complete lack of any notice while literally holding a 2 month notice!
This. They lterally have the prescribed two monthe notice documentation under s2 of the act. The surveyors will also perform a schedule of condition survey as evidence in case they cause any damage.
But then them pushing for 3 days? That’s a ridiculous proposition.
They are pushing for work to start in 3 days. That means they've definitely known about the potential works for weeks or months now. They haven't mentioned it despite literally living on the others idea of a wall from them.
Beams are usually uprights or horizontals. It is not normal to chase out walls to to set beams unless the width is very low I would definitely get a structural surveyors advice. Usually a cross beam eg opening up between front room back room is supported by two uprights and a cross beam at foundation level. Called picture window
Beams are horizontal - columns are vertical.
You can proceed with their appointed party wall surveyor as the "agreed surveyor". Under the party wall act the surveyor is required to be independent and represent the interests of both you and your neighbour equally. That being said, if it were my property I would want my own party wall surveyor for my peace of mind. You are perfectly entitled to have your own surveyor at your neighbours expense.
Many years ago my neighbours did a similar thing when they built a loft extension. We got home from work to find our bathroom tiles on the floor and in the bath. They had to come and re tile our bathroom.
We approached our neighbours re party wall agreements months in advance of the works, gave them plenty of time to consider, gave them links to all the plans, planning approval, builder/architect details etc - they all signed the party wall agreement no bother. Our builder wouldn’t arrange a start date until the agreements were all signed. Your moron neighbour has dropped the ball, this does not reflect well on them or the people they’ll be using for the work. Even if you sign, they’ll are liable for any damage caused but proving it can be harder. In this case i’d advise your neighbour in writing you dissent, find a surveyor specialising in party wall assessments and tell your neighbour who you wish to use and that you don’t want to share the same surveyor, your neighbours should pay for your surveyor. They will assess and come up with a schedule/agreed plan and sign the PW agreement. Take photos of all your internal walls and external photos (including in the loft) the day before the works start, get a copy of the builders PL insurance and check the council planning portal. You can’t stop them doing to works, but you can ensure you are minimising the risk to your property.
Is their insurance going to cover any damages? What if you have to leave home and get a hotel, who is paying? Write a document, dot all Is and cross Ts.
Three days, no ways