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Google section 20 consultation on major works (or similar) for general guidance. Ultimately, I suspect that you will have to dig deep and raid your savings.
Exactly this. I am a director for a small block of leasehold flats via an RTM. Section 20 is what will be required.
As a leaseholder, you can recommend a supplier to have them quote for the work. The directors will not want this cost either so if you can save the development half a mill with an alternative supplier. Go for it. The directors /management company have to allow it. If there is a cost for the quote /tender, they will have to approve it. You can also ask to join the board of directors. It's a hassle but it's also quite interesting.
I assume they have tried to go via the buildings insurance? This is usually why we have insurance.
If you don't pay, ultimately they can get a CCJ against you and have the mortgage company release the funds. This is not a route you want to go down.
Finally, I am sorry you are going through this.
Yeah but setting up an RTM on a block of 100 flats is quite difficult I can imagine. At least 50 leaseholders need to agree. Setting one up on a block up to 10 is so much easier.
There is quite a few management companies who will do the whole process on your behalf including contacting and signing up the required parties in exchange for a 1 year contract after that they handover to the directors to manage themselves or offer full management services or consultancy services to assist.
RTM means right to manage, meaning leaseholders take it up upon themselves to manage the block and do not require management company anymore. This isn't in the interest of management company because they basically lose management of a block.
RMC, a residential management company, is most likely what you're referring to. Meaning there's a company set up with a board of directors, usually leaseholders of the block, that have the final say regarding works, budgets etc however there's still management company that works 'on their behalf'.
We use a management company appointed by the directors. Does that help? Ie we have a company that works for The RTM and charges a cost per unit.
This is different to the landlord appointing a company to manage.
You have to form an RTM. If 50% of the leaseholders agree. You can setup on your own. It means you are in charge of spending but it also means quite a bit of work. You have the legal right to setup an RTM company.
https://www.leaseholdadvicecentre.co.uk/right-to-manage?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzZmwBhD8ARIsAH4v1gVLmTh7Ebz0tqbXpS7vkg-fHoNTbsjywSDP2q8I22m5UqExpk8VdXsaAoKFEALw_wcB
I’m so sorry, especially as it’s only 2 months ago. Did your solicitors highlight this risk? It feels like this was on-going during your purchase and they should have highlighted possible risks.
Also the survey should have picked this up, provided it was a Level 3, although I don't know how comprehensive a L3 is when dealing with a block of flats
I'm guessing the previous company just pocketed the service charges and did no maintenance and then just dissolved the company when they were ousted? Crazy how things like that are allowed.
Youre right to get the building insurance clarified, though just the fact the management coy going down this route, suggests the policy could be subject to various exclusion clauses. You do need to fully understand the insurance situation regards the building and whether current coverage is sufficient.
Follow the Section 20 consultation advice mentioned below, and that should provide you with answers to what youre asking here.
Its not good OP, so part of me hopes you got a good bargain when you bought.
Edit: Forgot to ask, were Bond Homes the original freeholder?
I guess that since poor maintenance has been identified, insurance won't cover it (as insurance is not a substitute for keeping the block on good nick)
Interested in this post. My folks are in a similar situation. A surveyor has been and says the block needs a new roof and this will be around £240k despite no quotes being obtained.
Their asking for £12k off each apartment yet haven't provided a single quote, just the ballpark figure from the surveyor.
My opinion is that the roof can be repaired/replaced in sections of less than 25% (it isn't urgent) to avoid having to adhere to planning regs with insulation etc which is why the 240k figure is so wild as the roof apparently needs removing, insulation installed and then effectively raised meaning all soil vents, light tunnels and access door need redoing.
From this thread I've now discovered section 20 and thus it appears they're in breach of this by not consulting the tenants, nor providing detailed quotes.
Theyve also done the same with the lifts stating its going to cost £2k per lift to upgrade the emergency phone from ptsn to gsm which is a ludicrous price and also in breach of section 20.
I’m in a building converted into 7 flats. Just been told the roof needs repairing and they are requested for £24k from each flat.
I’m in the same situation as you as there are other owners who cannot afford to pay.
As others have said. Read up on section 20. They will need to serve a notice, provide 2 separate quotes from independent companies etc.
I’ve read a bit about it and I’m sure I read about if owners refuse/can’t pay then the management company would have to pay for the works themselves and claim the money back through court - don’t quote me on that one though!
I would consider mobilising leaseholders to have a survey done on your behalf to assess whether the costs are efficient.
If the work needs to be done, it either gets done or the building eventually falls down.
I don’t see how there can be a payment plan. Who would provide the upfront funding? The freeholder cannot be expected to arrange funding for this. Those who cannot pay will need to sell up and pay from their proceeds or be evicted.
If engaging with the freeholder is proving difficult, there are options such as the right to manage or freehold enfranchisement.
Chartered architect means nothing here. You guys focus on the visual designs. The structural engineers do the actual work. My dad was chartered structural. So get one of them in to assess, then get quotes from insured established builders.
Did the seller warn you about all the issues with the previous management company and that this might be happening? I’d get into with your solicitors who you used when purchasing the property and let them know. Also ask the new property management for more quotes - did your building go down the right to manage route? Also, who are the new property managers? Some are famous for being extremely dodgy profit seekers with stuff like this.
1. They need to serve a Section 20 notice - through the notice they need to send out letters stating the intentions for carrying out the works, if majority of the leaseholders oppose to this intention then the works won't be able to go ahead, although as it's a structural problem it's probably in best interest to have this carried out
2. They will then need to go out to tender based on a specification and obtain at least two separate quotes for this to be valid and to go ahead with the project. Leaseholders can dedicate contractors of their choice during this stage
3. Have a look through your lease and check if it mentions any levies or 'special contribution', if nothing of this sort is mentioned then they are not allowed to charge you outside of the service charge and they'll need to wait until the next budget is due to implement these charges
Is the value of your flat greater than £1 million so that your charge is 18k? If you bought only 2 months ago, I would have thought that the contribution caps come into play: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/leaseholder-contribution-caps
Thank you for this link, I have been reading through this but feel it’s not a ‘relevant building’ as it’s under 11m/5 stories, therefore doesn’t apply. The website advices in this instance that it’s unlikely to require major works and to contact their email for them to investigate which I have done so. Hopefully will hear back from them sooner rather than later
It’s regarding damage that needs to be repaired to prevent structural collapse, which falls under the risk items in the gov document. This is due to water ingress for a long period without anybody fixing. Likely due to poor construction allowing the water to track there (assumption). Rather than just the age of it, steels are only 20 years old, should last a long time more than that
that's the reason why I killed the idea of looking for on a large estate :( I have heard horror stories on people paying this kind of cost for lift repairs. one of the reasons why apparently lenders don't like giving money for mortgages in buildings that have more than 10+ floors. I thought at first that cash offers only where on these flats because of cladding issues, but it is apparently due to sudden costs for the leaseholders due to regular maintenance.
When purchasing did you get issued an lpe1 pack? It would have stated any upcoming section 20 major works. Did your solicitor ask for details about section 20 directly to the other party?
Ultimately with leasehold you are up against it. You have to pay it otherwise they could take your property with forfeiture. But only if they issued properly executed section 20 notices. If they didn't you are capped at £250 per property.
I would book a call with the leasehold advisory service and get some advice on challenging it. You will need to get comparative quotes so you'll need to get an exact copy of the tender which went out and then you can compare. If it's vastly different you can then look to go to a tribunal to argue it isn't reasonable. You'll need legal advice on this.
Good luck!
frankly i'm rather surprised a Chartered Architect would have bought into this development without having obtained a more rigorous repair quote. Clearly you will be seeking for more than one estimate...right?
During purchase there was only a notice of works that had a surveyors estimate about 1/5 of what it is now. Yes I requested they attain more than one quote
Would advise you to join ‘National Leasehold Campaign’ on Facebook there are some incredibly experienced people on there who are very knowledgable about these kind of things & are great at advice
It’s usually not in the interests of management companies to not do work as quite simply they profit from doing work.
If you had a freehold house and the roof needed replacing? It’s the same situation but somewhat more outside your control. Get on with your life and pay up there will be other leaseholders to do the challenging.
Absolutely the wrong advise. Should it go to tribunal you must be a named party to the case to have the possibility of any payment order awarded to you.
Otherwise they can charge non named leaseholders legal fees and those who are named won't have to pay.
###Welcome to /r/HousingUK --- **To All** * Join Our ***NEW*** Discord! https://discord.gg/pMgUNgWKQH **To Posters** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws/issues in each can vary* * Comments are not moderated for quality or accuracy; * Any replies received must only be used as guidelines, followed at your own risk; * If you receive *any* private messages in response to your post, please report them via the report button. * If you do not receive satisfactory advice after 72 hours, [you can let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHousingUK&subject=My question is unanswered); * Feel free to provide an update at a later time by creating a new post with [[update]](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/search?q=%3Aupdate&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) in the title; **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and civil* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning; * Please include links to reliable resources in order to support your comments or advice; * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect; * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason without express permission from the mods; * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HousingUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Google section 20 consultation on major works (or similar) for general guidance. Ultimately, I suspect that you will have to dig deep and raid your savings.
Exactly this. I am a director for a small block of leasehold flats via an RTM. Section 20 is what will be required. As a leaseholder, you can recommend a supplier to have them quote for the work. The directors will not want this cost either so if you can save the development half a mill with an alternative supplier. Go for it. The directors /management company have to allow it. If there is a cost for the quote /tender, they will have to approve it. You can also ask to join the board of directors. It's a hassle but it's also quite interesting. I assume they have tried to go via the buildings insurance? This is usually why we have insurance. If you don't pay, ultimately they can get a CCJ against you and have the mortgage company release the funds. This is not a route you want to go down. Finally, I am sorry you are going through this.
Not all the leasehold blocks have directors so it might not be applicable depending on circumstances
[удалено]
Yeah but setting up an RTM on a block of 100 flats is quite difficult I can imagine. At least 50 leaseholders need to agree. Setting one up on a block up to 10 is so much easier.
Management companies will do this for you and it's not expensive, as they will reap the rewards.
Management company will not set up RTM because it's not in their interest and it's nothing to do with them. Do you mean RMC? That's more likely.
There is quite a few management companies who will do the whole process on your behalf including contacting and signing up the required parties in exchange for a 1 year contract after that they handover to the directors to manage themselves or offer full management services or consultancy services to assist.
Sorry, reddit is playing up. Previous directors used a management company to assist setting it up.
RTM means right to manage, meaning leaseholders take it up upon themselves to manage the block and do not require management company anymore. This isn't in the interest of management company because they basically lose management of a block. RMC, a residential management company, is most likely what you're referring to. Meaning there's a company set up with a board of directors, usually leaseholders of the block, that have the final say regarding works, budgets etc however there's still management company that works 'on their behalf'.
We use a management company appointed by the directors. Does that help? Ie we have a company that works for The RTM and charges a cost per unit. This is different to the landlord appointing a company to manage.
You have to form an RTM. If 50% of the leaseholders agree. You can setup on your own. It means you are in charge of spending but it also means quite a bit of work. You have the legal right to setup an RTM company. https://www.leaseholdadvicecentre.co.uk/right-to-manage?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzZmwBhD8ARIsAH4v1gVLmTh7Ebz0tqbXpS7vkg-fHoNTbsjywSDP2q8I22m5UqExpk8VdXsaAoKFEALw_wcB
There's digging deep, and then there's finding £18k during a cost of living crisis...
I’m so sorry, especially as it’s only 2 months ago. Did your solicitors highlight this risk? It feels like this was on-going during your purchase and they should have highlighted possible risks.
Also the survey should have picked this up, provided it was a Level 3, although I don't know how comprehensive a L3 is when dealing with a block of flats
A surveyor in this sense would only have been contracted to inspect the flat and not the entirety of the building, I assume?
That’s correct, imagine the survey costs of a grade 2 listed building with 100 flats in there
I'm guessing the previous company just pocketed the service charges and did no maintenance and then just dissolved the company when they were ousted? Crazy how things like that are allowed.
Youre right to get the building insurance clarified, though just the fact the management coy going down this route, suggests the policy could be subject to various exclusion clauses. You do need to fully understand the insurance situation regards the building and whether current coverage is sufficient. Follow the Section 20 consultation advice mentioned below, and that should provide you with answers to what youre asking here. Its not good OP, so part of me hopes you got a good bargain when you bought. Edit: Forgot to ask, were Bond Homes the original freeholder?
I guess that since poor maintenance has been identified, insurance won't cover it (as insurance is not a substitute for keeping the block on good nick)
Interested in this post. My folks are in a similar situation. A surveyor has been and says the block needs a new roof and this will be around £240k despite no quotes being obtained. Their asking for £12k off each apartment yet haven't provided a single quote, just the ballpark figure from the surveyor. My opinion is that the roof can be repaired/replaced in sections of less than 25% (it isn't urgent) to avoid having to adhere to planning regs with insulation etc which is why the 240k figure is so wild as the roof apparently needs removing, insulation installed and then effectively raised meaning all soil vents, light tunnels and access door need redoing. From this thread I've now discovered section 20 and thus it appears they're in breach of this by not consulting the tenants, nor providing detailed quotes. Theyve also done the same with the lifts stating its going to cost £2k per lift to upgrade the emergency phone from ptsn to gsm which is a ludicrous price and also in breach of section 20.
I’m in a building converted into 7 flats. Just been told the roof needs repairing and they are requested for £24k from each flat. I’m in the same situation as you as there are other owners who cannot afford to pay. As others have said. Read up on section 20. They will need to serve a notice, provide 2 separate quotes from independent companies etc. I’ve read a bit about it and I’m sure I read about if owners refuse/can’t pay then the management company would have to pay for the works themselves and claim the money back through court - don’t quote me on that one though!
I would consider mobilising leaseholders to have a survey done on your behalf to assess whether the costs are efficient. If the work needs to be done, it either gets done or the building eventually falls down. I don’t see how there can be a payment plan. Who would provide the upfront funding? The freeholder cannot be expected to arrange funding for this. Those who cannot pay will need to sell up and pay from their proceeds or be evicted. If engaging with the freeholder is proving difficult, there are options such as the right to manage or freehold enfranchisement.
Chartered architect means nothing here. You guys focus on the visual designs. The structural engineers do the actual work. My dad was chartered structural. So get one of them in to assess, then get quotes from insured established builders.
Did the seller warn you about all the issues with the previous management company and that this might be happening? I’d get into with your solicitors who you used when purchasing the property and let them know. Also ask the new property management for more quotes - did your building go down the right to manage route? Also, who are the new property managers? Some are famous for being extremely dodgy profit seekers with stuff like this.
1. They need to serve a Section 20 notice - through the notice they need to send out letters stating the intentions for carrying out the works, if majority of the leaseholders oppose to this intention then the works won't be able to go ahead, although as it's a structural problem it's probably in best interest to have this carried out 2. They will then need to go out to tender based on a specification and obtain at least two separate quotes for this to be valid and to go ahead with the project. Leaseholders can dedicate contractors of their choice during this stage 3. Have a look through your lease and check if it mentions any levies or 'special contribution', if nothing of this sort is mentioned then they are not allowed to charge you outside of the service charge and they'll need to wait until the next budget is due to implement these charges
Is the value of your flat greater than £1 million so that your charge is 18k? If you bought only 2 months ago, I would have thought that the contribution caps come into play: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/leaseholder-contribution-caps
Thank you for this link, I have been reading through this but feel it’s not a ‘relevant building’ as it’s under 11m/5 stories, therefore doesn’t apply. The website advices in this instance that it’s unlikely to require major works and to contact their email for them to investigate which I have done so. Hopefully will hear back from them sooner rather than later
In any case this isn't building safety related by the sounds of it. It's building age.
It’s regarding damage that needs to be repaired to prevent structural collapse, which falls under the risk items in the gov document. This is due to water ingress for a long period without anybody fixing. Likely due to poor construction allowing the water to track there (assumption). Rather than just the age of it, steels are only 20 years old, should last a long time more than that
that's the reason why I killed the idea of looking for on a large estate :( I have heard horror stories on people paying this kind of cost for lift repairs. one of the reasons why apparently lenders don't like giving money for mortgages in buildings that have more than 10+ floors. I thought at first that cash offers only where on these flats because of cladding issues, but it is apparently due to sudden costs for the leaseholders due to regular maintenance.
When purchasing did you get issued an lpe1 pack? It would have stated any upcoming section 20 major works. Did your solicitor ask for details about section 20 directly to the other party? Ultimately with leasehold you are up against it. You have to pay it otherwise they could take your property with forfeiture. But only if they issued properly executed section 20 notices. If they didn't you are capped at £250 per property. I would book a call with the leasehold advisory service and get some advice on challenging it. You will need to get comparative quotes so you'll need to get an exact copy of the tender which went out and then you can compare. If it's vastly different you can then look to go to a tribunal to argue it isn't reasonable. You'll need legal advice on this. Good luck!
frankly i'm rather surprised a Chartered Architect would have bought into this development without having obtained a more rigorous repair quote. Clearly you will be seeking for more than one estimate...right?
During purchase there was only a notice of works that had a surveyors estimate about 1/5 of what it is now. Yes I requested they attain more than one quote
Would advise you to join ‘National Leasehold Campaign’ on Facebook there are some incredibly experienced people on there who are very knowledgable about these kind of things & are great at advice
Thank you, I will do this now.
You should've run a mile as soon as you heard the word leasehold...
Yes, freehold houses are never poorly constructed nor require maintenance of any kind.
It’s usually not in the interests of management companies to not do work as quite simply they profit from doing work. If you had a freehold house and the roof needed replacing? It’s the same situation but somewhat more outside your control. Get on with your life and pay up there will be other leaseholders to do the challenging.
Absolutely the wrong advise. Should it go to tribunal you must be a named party to the case to have the possibility of any payment order awarded to you. Otherwise they can charge non named leaseholders legal fees and those who are named won't have to pay.