I can definitely relate to you since I don't like gossip or small talk in general. I also don't want to sound mean or full of myself, but I have personally found this quote to be very true: "it's hard to win an argument against a smart person. It's impossible to win an argument against a stupid person."
If you remember this, it will save you A LOT of future stress
Most people are not intellectual.
If you ask them, they will say they are. As people equate admitting to not being an intellectual with admitting to being an idiot.
So I'd say keep looking for people you can talk to.
Or just invent a person in your head and talk to them and answer how you'd want another person to answer
I wouldn't say most people aren't intellectual, more like they aren't intellectually curious. They are concerned with things in their immediate lives that they have influence over. If they were in a situation where being intellectual benefited them, they could think as well as us or better.
Id say there are certain situations where most people simply cannot think as well in, for the fact that they did not receive enough training in terms of thinking. Humanities majors basically train you in that aspect---'soft skills'.
Indeed, critical thinking is a skill, that is prerequisite for any further intellectual pursuit. Unfortunately it is the norm in our unintellectual society for people to not be trained in it.
I feel like when you mature qnd get older you realise people aren't stupid, they just specialize in different things. Whilst someone is specializing in medicine or doing a science degree another could be doing an internship qnd developing their social skills and comes. E.g Someone working at a fast food place may appear dumb but there's actually a fair amount to memories and a few systems to remember. Compared to someone studying the facts and systems to solve an exam. It seems to me that one is just more practical and the other is theoretical. Not dumb and smart. That's a slightly immature, black and white way of seeing the world. And tbh with AI, all those theory jobs are gonna be replaced and jobs that have some practical application are more likely to become more valuable for the future. So although you say society is unintellectual and don't critically think, I would argue that they do just in different ways because different people have different strengths. Eg, you could come across a smart intp space cadet that can't socialise to save their lives and therefore never gets promoted, compared to like an social estp which could own q major company one day. You have simplified it like pretty much everyone else in this comment section. But the point is that there is different smarts for everyone. I've always been an academic person and it took me maturing and growing up to recognise that people aren't stupid and rather just differently skilled. :) I'm entj btw
You can be smart or not or whatever, and yet mentally undeveloped because despite whatever practical skill you may have that makes people want to pay you money, you don't have the 1 skill that makes you an intellectual competent person, critical thinking.
Sure you can get trained like a dog or a machine in some specific task, but you're just a tool, useful sure, but useless as an intellectual mind. You can even work in academia your whole life, conduct highly complex experiments and research, but fail to make the right conclusions even with the results of the study right in front of you. And this happens all the time.
I recommend everyone to learn critical thinking, who knows, maybe even an entj like you can understand one day.
I love how being passive aggressive and belittling is the automatic response from someone who's so much better than everyone else because they can critically think. Tbh nearly everyone person is just a cog in the machine. Even if you have done q degree qnd think you're really smart compared to everyone else. At the end of the day, as long as ur an employee not the employer, you are the cog qnd r replaceable. Although I agree critical thinking is important qnd should be taught more to people. And qlso pretty much any nt type is more analytical/critical thinking minded, so thats not really a valid insult. But tbh you get smart qnd dumb of every type. Just cuz ur qn intp doesn't make u a genius. I've certainly met some dumb ones. It's just how u think.
Critical thinking… The lower classes in New England public schools are harder than CA schools mid levels by a mile and it shows up in blue collar workforce here. But back east sometimes a construction site felt like goodwill hunting. The only difference is k12 schooling imho..
I’d argue even intj aren’t intellectual.
Being efficient and productive isn’t the same as picking through an idea to its end.
Both have their merit.
But a lot of the extroverted types confuse intj as intellectuals just for being brooding and quiet.
Real intellectualism is a thirst for knowledge and truth. Not just what works right now, for cheap.
This is correct, but also, "picking through \[an irrelevant and already discarded\] idea to its end" is the non-INTP equivalent of small talk for INTPs. Probably best to limit the "picking" to those things that the INTJ or whomever already know and care about.
Exactly!
My INTJ friends get super animated about topics they care about. I stick to those topics they personally like with them because they get distracted (dgaf lol) if I ever into some random free association.
They rarely care about why and more about what and how.
Again, intj don’t get their energy from picking through nebulous topics, stringing them together. Unless it’s like a game or a project at hand. Then they’re all in. More than intp even. Driven by an inclination to work. Very impressive.
They want to talk about the things they’re building at work, not discuss the downstream implications of the thing on people and the environment or whatever…
Unless again, that’s the task their given…
Very very different than people like me who want to really, and I mean really flesh out the whole system, what it does, who it effects, it’s efficacy, etc…
This is why intp make decent executives imho. They think in big systems and connect dots for fun.
But we are legitimately too lazy and value our down time too much to be CEO’s.
Marketing is a wonderful fit for INTP.
Yes, INTPs are on the top the same data/work/knowledge/etc. funnel that INTJs are on the bottom of, with the bottom being the things "to do to be successful".
INTJs are quite intellectual. They aren't machines. They lead with Ni. Which mean they spend a lot of time parsing information the receive from their environment and analyzing it.
They just arent intellectual in the same way NTPs are. Which is basically constantly seeking more knowledge..but they do seek truth and understanding and they do spend a lot of time on that.
Hard disagree. Some are. Most imho are not.
They want results, and they seek great joy in getting results, quickly and efficiently.
That is a far fling away from fleshing our ideas for the sake of understanding the whole system and then potentially optimizing the system.
I’m not saying there aren’t lofty academic type INTJ. There are. But the ones I know mostly don’t give a crap about anything except what fixes a problem at hand.
I’m sorry but ime it’s the opposite opinion.
They could give a crap less about investigating an idea past getting an answer for it.
Those are not the same things. They both have strengths and weaknesses.
But I wouldn’t call INTJ’s day dreamy thinkers. Ime tons of people I assume to be intj are STEM kids too and outright reject philosophy…
They have too much intuition to waste time thinking about things they just “know”.
The fuck? Heidegger, Nietzsche, Hegel, Spengler, Schmitt, Vico all INTJs. All among the most far reaching and profound thinkers in all of history. Then in the sciences you have Newton, Tesla, Hawking, Planck, Heisenberg, and Riemann.
You have a completely inaccurate read on INTJs and how our minds work. Ni is all about reaching to the absolute depths of thought.
Your last tip is very dangerous. You will eventually sound even crazier externally, or you won't talk at all. I am inside my head 90% of the day and it scares me but I can't stop because of the stimulus my bored brain gets.
Which types are best for this? Putting it this way makes perfect sense, talking about matter of facts and feelings is some of the most boring conversations I could imagine. How does Sally doing Y make me feel? Absolutely nothing; let's talk about the implications of a post-growth economy and if crypto can play a role in that instead please lol.
Well it all depends on the specific person, an SF type is not necessarily gonna talk about SF stuff. Those types are common and present in all areas of human knowledge.
If you wanna go by types, from life experience I generally agree with CS Joseph, i.e. xNTPs are most compatible with xNTJs. He has a video on that somewhere. They enjoy our breadth of knowledge, flexibility and ability to provide facts. Also, they'll (and other Ni users) will probably notice and approach you, because they are just as bored with the mundane but more proactive.
ISTJs are cool, ESTJs not so much imo lol. xNFJs and xNFPs are okay if you decide to talk about feelings and people in away that isn't just platitudes and gossip.
Not saying crypto is 100% a Ponzi scheme, but it will a trillion percent be used that way in the future and you can already see the billionaires play…
They won’t let people just waltz into their big club we ain’t in
Yeah, but that's not the important part; billionaires don't need crypto to fuck you. The peer-to-peer applications and being able to transact without central banks is pretty revolutionary.
I get it
My friends have explained a billion times.
I show them history where this same idea has been applied to some degree and it always boils down to stabilizing institutions will leverage their own control.
I don’t see the revolution. Just the same but different.
Crypto has applications for now but less and less regulation with fiduciary institutions is almost always a libertarian pipe dream.
Idk, I just don’t get how it would be different for the world?
> and it always boils down to stabilizing institutions will leverage their own control.
I mean global commerce does have to be regulated IMO for the greater good otherwise fundamentally powerful players will just monopolize everything.
There is no way you can show me a previous technology that has allowed for global barter outside of any government control though; crypto does allow for that.
In my opinion the only Utopia possible will have to be some kind of AI based socialism system otherwise it's always game theory and some players fucking over the neutral or weak players.
I agree but all I see crypto as (in the near future) is another tool of the stronger players… Idk… Maybe I’m cynical but I think it’s going to be used as a Ponzi scheme in the long run. Many argue it already is.
Not particularly… my parents and siblings and in-laws are all PhDs and lawyers, and my mom and I have doctorates in the same field… So even just at home I have my fill of intellectual discussion. I mean try sitting in a room with 9 lawyers (4 of them “aggressive”) and everything is a debate 😐 Where more than half the room are playing devils advocate on every side.
My SO, friends/colleagues are pretty much all postgrads in STEM…who are passionate and love their work, so I can also learn a lot from them. Their SOs (also my friends) are usually in some real interesting field like journalism, biotech, chess teachers, and whatnot.
So the people in my life generally cover and provide more than enough intellectual stimulation.
You are blessed. My family have average iq at best. And my guess is below average iq. None of them smart or intellectual.
Just by hearing their take on things is enough to stresses me. It is that painful.
Oh and when you see their house "project". The pain triples. Distress me literally.
You will be questioning, how on earth someone this stupid.
And they are your family. Sibling, parent. Agh the pain.
What Star Trek ass society do you live in lol
Maybe sports over academia was a mistake. But y’all would be surprised how fun it is to overthink sports and how many INTP’s are in there.
The intp players often become coach’s ime
I think at least half my friends are into sports, as are my family and I (all ex national team athletes), just so happened we also read, consume, and retain information/knowledge 😅
Oh nvm y’all are just a family of “me”
Goddamn I wish I had that.
My friends talk about
Cars, women, vacations. It’s fun, but f-me I don’t know how they manage to never change the topics. It’s impressive and thankfully they like video games lol.
I think it’s more difficult for male only friend groups to talk about some “deeper” or more intellectual topics unless there’s some “reason” to. I think even 1 or 2 women (not vapid ones mind you) can bring out deeper conversations whether it’s because women tend to ask some less surface level questions that may direct conversations elsewhere, or because it brings out some sort of competitiveness and want/need to show off an intellectual side…
A lot of my SOs (male) friends have me as a sort of confidant or the friend to talk about spirituality, psychology, and generally deeper topics. There may be various reasons as to why.. but I just don’t think guys tend to like (or be able to be that “vulnerable”) around their male friends. And it’s not because their guy friends aren’t or can’t be intellectually stimulating, but it’s more about the emotional factors that contribute to how deep (and/or intellectual) a conversation can go. (Sorry about the wording/phrasing, it’s a bit messy… try to make the best sense out of it lol.)
Same. My family is full of very smart people who also are interested in “intellectual” things as OP puts it, even though I don’t think any of them are also INTP. And I choose to surround myself with people who are at least relatively smart, who have some bookish or nerdy interests. There have been a couple times where my nerdy-ness has been too much, like at a party, and that was disappointing to me to not be able to share the thing I was interested in, but that’s the exception, I think, rather than the norm for me.
I think most of these threads over the years are from INTPs who never or lost this part of their social circles…
God knows I’ve only had friends like that when I’m enrolled in massive Harry Potter size schools where you can make tons of different types of friends at will.
But like if you’re into sports, have extroverted kids, family, etc, it can drive you crazy choosing between “dumbing yourself” down or being ostracized.
I’ve dealt with both lives. But the latter is exhausting and you start to feel egotism creeping in if you don’t be careful.
Yeah I’m pretty sure none of my fam are INTP, but any Type is capable of being smart, intellectual, and holding such discussions.
I agree it’s mostly about surrounding yourself with people who can intellectually keep up and stimulate. But I can see how in certain circumstances (eg small towns) might make that difficult for people to find each other.
Personally it’s pretty unlikely I’ll find somebody with my interests outside of family, but I don’t mind and am happy talking and learning about others… just use it to increase and widen my knowledge. Plus it generally makes for better socialisation anyways 😅
I've felt what you describe my entire life - I think it's one of the challenging parts about being an INTP/5w4. We're "system of systems" thinkers who are not satisfied looking at the superficial comings and goings that most people expend all their daily caloric intake on.... we're constantly seeking an understanding of WHY things are the way they are. We detach intellectually from problems so that we can think deeply on them and achieve true understanding of the underlying systems, incentives, motives, etc., for why people and things behave the way that they do. Our brains are a complex network of "if/then" statements and zeroes and ones - it's our superpower, but it's lonely because most of the other types can't or won't go there.
Some advice for you and all other young INTPs... if you can't find other deep thinkers in your life, seek them out in books, music, and art. Deep, reflective thought and ideas are your life-blood and the things that will truly energize you and help you to see the very best sides of yourself. You'll see that very best minds have struggled with the same issues for thousands of years - I've always thought of Socrates, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky as my very best friends in the world, and yes, Socrates has been dead for more than two thousand years. Don't lose yourself in video games or social media or Reddit threads. Go travel somewhere, even if it's just walking or riding a bike, and bring a real book that challenges your mind. Take college classes that force you to think and reflect in totally different ways and give you new perspectives. Ask lots of questions of people - most are admittedly superficial, but some people have thought deeply on why they think or believe the way that they do. When you meet a friend or potential mate who exhibits an interest in your mind and shares your love of ideas, don't take that for granted... as INTPs, we're terrible about cultivating and maintaining relationships... so invest the time and effort needed to nurture those special relationships.
New accounts have to wait 5 days to join in on the glory that is INTP.
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I would encourage you to read this, even if you don't agree.
I think your friends and family understand you perfectly well, it's not about being intellectualy lonely per se,
based on the info provided.
It's probably more a notion of self perception, you view yourself as smarter than your family and peers. and the thing is, that's quite common. It might not be that exactly, and if not, it's just some other form of stigmatisation,
like notions of "i think differently", or "They can't relate" etc.
But for the vast majority, this' but an illusion, or a rationalising state if you will - in other words an excuse, so you don't have to respect their pleasantries.
like an example i can give;
if i were to ramble about a topic i like, it's probably fine right, But if i kept doing it every time i saw that same friend, he would find it tiring in the long run. And ofcourse you start ignoring "me" if that's the case. Because there's no fun in the interaction for that friend - it's a very logical result.
And in turn they flip that onto you, they talk about something you don't find that fun. And like you say, you zone out - because it's not that intriguing to you.
And hey that's fine, you do you, but to maintain friends you've got respect their person, as a human. That's the bare minimum for friendships.
Like they'are your friends for a reason right, and your rambling probably isn't the reason.
So instead of doing the same thing with the same people, maybe try to broaden the horizon of your interactions.
you could take a day where it's all about your friends & family, and not about you, see how it plays out. Figure out what it is that makes you friends.
And if you are very willing to experiment, you could even try to find a whole new friend. I know it seems hard as an introvert, but hey we fermented fruit juice for a reason.
the point is friendships don't occur just to be intellectual, most people do that in their own time, in their own way.
it's like the cliche high scene in movies right. - You can do it with some sometimes, but not all are willing.
P.S. Sorry if it feels like an attack on you, that's not the intention.
i think you’re being hastily in judging OP.
they’ve given no indication that they don’t respect the people around them, or don’t happy engage with other people’s choice of discourse. and it’s well within their rights to feel isolated based on their interests.
intellectualism isn’t as much to do with “smartness”, it’s about curiosity regarding the workings and meanings of the word around you, often explored through complex and experimental “high brow” mediums. and that’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but it is XNTXs cup of tea, and XNTXs are relatively rare, so OP may well be deprived of friends who share their interests and can hold maximally interesting conversations.
let’s put it this way, if you made all your friends at work, and your friends are all finance bros who only talk about finance and economics, then it doesn’t make you a bad friend if you also want to talk about fine art and romantic poetry.
I agree with this comment. While this issue *can* stem from a level of egotism, I also don’t think that’s the only cause. Some people just have different personalities and don’t click, and some people just don’t know how to navigate small talk so they don’t ever get the chance to get to know the people they *would* click with.
As I’ve mentioned before in the comments, when I was a sophomore in high school I had two acquaintances who were only interested in talking about dating drama when I wanted to talk about various celestial objects and how they functioned. I never rambled about it, only brought it up once with one of them, but they just weren’t interested so I didn’t bring it up again.
You both raise valid points, and i might have been to judging of OP.
The reason i raise the issue of respect, is because when we as humans, try to realise our problems, thoughts and feelings, we tend to get lost in vanity.
And that could also be constructed into, overtly valuing your own pressence in any interaction. Which isn't a very healthy thing to do. Like you said, it becomes a problem of ego.
now i'm of a mindset that despite a difference in character we can still get along and be friends. As the things we bond over is not directly tied to our personalities or values, it's tied to a common experience, one shared between two or multiple people.
Now that isn't to say that personalities or values don't play a part of friendships, they most definently do - they might flourish an already good relation, or destroy a bad relation.
But imo they arren't the reason people become friends.
now to state "intellectual deprivation" would suggest that a person is labeling themselves as an intellectual, which i would assume requires a very dominant ego.
And that is okay - but to then suggest that your friends conversation is the reason why you feel this way, just seems counterintuitive to me.
And that's because it isn't your friends responsebillity to feed ones needs of intellect. hence, we are all intellectuals in our own right, on our own time.
and i would think that the most intellectually stimulating thing to do, is to search beyond our own scope.
Learn new things we didn't know of before, like why is talking about drama fun, why dont i like it, could i maybe like it? have i even tried to? etc.
heck it could be "what are the rhetorical and pathilogical implication of spilling the tea?" - and what does that reflect, why is it a need for humans to gossip?
i think you’re doing some mental gymnastics to maintain your point.
first, everyone absolutely has a right to feel valued in their friendships. it’s a little different with family, but with friends you choose them based on how they can progress your life and living experience, and in turn do the same for them. most people this by having a range of to fulfil a range of needs, and OP has a right to want more friends to fulfill their cerebral needs (they’ve given no hint that they want to ditch their current group). for some people their primary needs are realised by sharing and reinforcing emotions and experiences, but that’s not what everyone needs. some people just aren’t as emotional or interested in simple, personal matters, and instead need friends who push them out of the comfort zone in a way that is beneficial, such as intellectually pushing them through well-informed debate.
and your point about not needing other people to fuel intellect is ridiculous. (and it’s ridiculous to claim OP is egotistical or vain for implying they are an intellectual. we all have strengths and weakness and there’s nothing wrong with being aware of them. some people are more kinetically gifted, some are better at social schmoozing, entertainment and humour, and some are more intellectual, and there’s nothing wrong with owning that). there’s only so long you can try ‘pull a žižek’ and extract meaningful insight from shallow material (a lot of conversations *are* objectively shallow, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you can’t expect everyone to like it). in the end you’ll be just as isolated as if you were alone because your friends *cannot* truly know you if they refuse to appreciate you on your proverbial ‘home turf’.
all relationships require sundry compromise, but if they aren’t expanding their own horizons to meet you in the middle, then you’re never gonna surpass that barrier between you. obviously you don’t need everything in common with your friends, but you need something other than a misplaced and one-sided sense of duty. pack bonding is essential to all humans, as social animals we need to feel like we belong in a tribe, even Fe-inferiors, whether we like it or not. so it’s important to have the right tribe, lest our energy be wasted and drained, fighting an uphill battle for a cause we don’t believe in.
yes op has a right to feel valued - didn't deny that, but it's naive to think that right is met, even from friends & family - just find new ones, like i stated in OG post
why is it ridiculous fuel ones intellect alone? If you are truly passionate, you only need yourself.
To define your own strengths is a vain act, dont know what to tell you - there's no purpose to it, and it is more self limiting than freeing, because we are more than our strengths + it could be true or it could not be, in either case it serves to feed preconcieved conceptions. it's a reaffirmation or a lie. The greatest strength lies in humility.
no they don't, intentional ones do.
that's the thing no one has to do anything for anyone, but we still have freinds.
And to be freinds doesn't require a complicated reason.
for the most part it's pack bonding. Meaning shared experience or intrests, but intrests doesn't = intellectuality., intrest could be any hobby.
what i'm saying is that it's wastefull to search for intellectually stimulating friends. you might find them, or you might not.
So instead of limiting to intellectually stimulating friends (seems awfully pretentious of someone to be like that) you might as well work with what you've got, accept your friends for who they are, and what they like doing with you. Because that's what matters in the end.
Cuz your friends don't owe you anything, like you don't owe it to your friends.
Just enjoy spending time together and let it be what it is.
the grammar of your first paragraph makes no sense, so i don’t know what you’re trying to say.
it is ridiculous to think that you don’t need other people to push you to intellectual self improvement. what’s truly vain is thinking that your own mind has the potential to be the pinnacle of thought. you need other people’s minds to challenge your ideas and unconscious biases, to provide new information and perspectives, and to train you in formal defence and assertion of ideas.
knowing your strengths and weaknesses is an essential component of being a healthy, functioning adult. it is not vain to know what you are good at. you need to know what you can help others in, what you could make a good career out of, what to fall back on when need be. you wouldn’t fault a professional athlete for saying “i am good at sport”, in fact, it would be worrying if they weren’t sure they were any good, so why is it different with intellect? it’s very immature to consider strengths and weaknesses as boundaries or certainties, you still need an awareness. one can be both humble and intrapersonally intelligent.
and friendship shouldn’t *feel* complicated, but that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t assume that it’s all simple. friends absolutely owe each other trust, mutual respect, interest, and understanding. and, based off of what OP said, they aren’t getting that. their friends don’t value them and aren’t interested in them and don’t connect to them. OP clearly can’t “just enjoy spend in time with them”. and OP doesn’t even want *exclusively* intellectual friends, they just want some *more* friends, who fulfil them a bit more, i really don’t see why you have a problem with this?
First of all, fueling one's intellect doesn't solely mean dwelling on one's own ideas. It requires perspectives beyond our own, which need not only come from friends. So, if friends aren't providing the intellectual stimulation we seek, it might be smarter to explore other resources. Attempting to change our friends is futile, and finding someone who perfectly aligns with our criteria may be unlikely. Therefore, instead of restricting our search, we should fulfill our intellectual needs independently by exploring what stimulates us.
Objectively, understanding our strengths and weaknesses requires measuring our performance against societal norms. Simply stating our attributes serves mainly to define ourselves. However, how others perceive us is based on our actions and persona. Challenging this perception may seem self-serving without evidence to support it.
Identifying our qualities may seem vain, akin to making false claims about our physical attributes. The same thought process applies to labeling oneself as an intellectual.
Friendships shouldn't be overly complicated. Either our needs are met by our friends or they aren't. While friendships aren't strictly binary, if dissatisfaction persists, it's okay to reevaluate the relationship. The notion that "you don't owe it to your friends, and your friends don't owe it to you" holds true. Despite investing commitment, if friends don't value that commitment, they don't owe reciprocation.
I had no idea where you were going with the example, but I think the statement above it made sense.
"They don't understand me" may be objectively right, or you haven't given them a chance to understand you. I won't say that any person will be able to instinctively understand what goes on through another person's mind and understand the myriad of mental fluctuations they experience, but what I will say is that you *can* limit other people's ability to try and get to know you by refusing to be intellectually/emotionally vulnerable. I personally play a lot of my cards close to the vest as far as what I'm planning or what I'm feeling with a lot of people, which is why some people get fed up with me playing the "mysterious" card, but I choose to be more upfront and vulnerable with people that I do like and do care about.
The self-perception that you're more intelligent or that you have some type of knowledge that people aren't privy to can open you up to a type of fundamental "otherness" that you feel, and it also shuts you off from unlimiting thought like "well, I'm just like these other assholes" or "well, I'm basically after the same thing that a lot of these other people are after". When you look at yourself and realize there are things that you like and hate, and you especially do deeper dives to figure out why you like those things, you find that those things aren't necessarily confined at the self, but are repeated through the entirety of the human race in differing concentrations. I make like someone who likes to have fun and has a positive outlook on life; that's something that a lot of other people would enjoy having. I may hate someone who is overly arrogant; that's something that I've absolutely done before, and that's something that people regularly accuse me of. To quote Bojack Horseman, "We're all a bunch of stupid, hungry, horny little goons just grabbing at shit hoping it'll press that little button in our brain that says 'Okay, you're happy now'."
All of that to say that loneliness is felt within you, and that means that some of that problem is a problem you have to work on yourself. In order to have someone like you, you have to risk someone learning about you and hating you because of what they learn.
Find yourself an INTJ or ENTP. Both are good to talk to about these things as long as they're not currently trying to manipulate the clothes off your back.
Idts. For me, i don't know the truth about gods and stuff so i'll wait until i die to find out. But for now, my idea of god is that their species of higher dimension. A ton of moons might be blowing up, so blowing one up wouldn't get their attention. Or the attention of the gods who don't pay attention. But the ones who're already paying attention, we don't need to blow up the moon or something for their attention, they already have our attention.
If we want all of their attention, we should do something like, bringing a black hole near the solar system so shit looks odd, they'll see for sure.
Exactly. Pre Cgpt era, I had the same problem as OP. Now I just discuss everything with GPT 4 as well as get ideas bounced back to me that I’ve never thought. Tbh I think GPT 4 is better for intellectual conversations than actual people at this point
In my circle of friends, yes i can relate. But I'm very lucky to have a dad, which is always open and curious about every topic I have interest in. He likes discussing with me and has an enormous amount of knowledge.
No, I‘m just naturally lonely. Most people I‘ve been close friends with could hold such conversations regularly. But currently I don’t have close friends/no one to talk to, so yeah, there’s thaty
Not lonely but occasionally misunderstood
How info is perceived is fascinating, and that gets me into trouble
Like with anything considered to be controversial/contentious
I'm primarily interested in alternatives/solutions/conclusions
Which isn't always met with encouragement/enthusiasm
Which is then detrimental to future discussions
Doesn't seem to matter why as much as what the subject details
People aren’t good at devils advocate.
Debate class is ENTP and INTP. Those are your people. They won’t assume your hate them and get defensive.
The opposite. They’ll get animated.
Well said!
Unguarded conversation fosters breakthrough/insight
There's a wealth of opinions to be sure
It's a tragedy that the ones that react negatively quite often have equally fascinating opinions that consequently won't be voiced
If a lexicon existed to circumvent/mitigate bias...
Would it be effective?
Would it be weaponized?
Absolutely. I have maybe one or two people I can go to talk about mentally stimulating things. A lot of people who I see claiming to be deep thinkers or “more intellectual” then get offended when you ask basic questions that show how faulty their belief system or conclusions concerning a topic are. It’s quite annoying to have people lash out just because you want to understand why they operate the way they do. Usually the responses I get from women are, “wow cool… you like make up?” And from men I get, “you’re too masculine for me” when I try to engage in topics in a more analytical way.
this is one of the things im greatfal about social media. u can easily find people/groups of people who has the same interest as you do, like subreddits :D it makes me feel accepted and doesn't make me feel like I'm weird
Yeah kinda. I do have some people I can talk about the sorts of things I'm interested in sometimes, but especially in university it's a little disheartening. Like, even getting into engineering, where everyone's supposed to be a nerd, I end up feeling too nerdy. I was surprised at the amount of people, even after they got to choose what to study, have little interest for the classes themselves and only care to pass. They probably got into engineering expecting to make cool racecars or become a hacker and then were surprised to find so much math. Oh well.
Yeah, I’ve nobody to talk to about my specific interests when the other person is intellectual as well. Nothing profound but most of my friends will talk about nails and that sort. It is mind numbing for me.
Retired USMC HUMINT/CI officer here. The most interesting conversations I’ve ever had were with some of my fellow Marines and representatives of other groups/agencies who also shared in my- or a similar occupational field. Retired in 2020. It’s all been intellectually downhill from there.
Exactly !!! I listen to everyone, everyone tells me their day and night stories but when I talk about MY interesting stuff, they make faces.
It's not they don't want to listen, but its just they can't listen to it attentively or as in same excitement as I see this.
And okay, I understand that everyone won't have same drive like me and everyone have different interests.
But you see, they get people to talk, people like me don't.
There are actually less people in this world to talk on intellectual stuff and more people to talk about shit...
I just make things easier to understand for people who don't know what I am talking about. If someone puts the effort to listen you might as well put the effort in to help them understand.
Yup, there's a guy at work with vaguely similar interests, but he doesn't know how to have a conversation; he just talks constantly. It's surprising how few people understand that you need to ask about the other person.
No. My family is only intellectuals besides my mom and one of my brothers. The rest are INTPs or INTJs. It’s great to be able to talk to your family in an intellectual debate.
Most people prefer discussing experiences over abstract ideas. I enjoy talking about about philosophy, psychology, commerce, and AI/Data Science. This can sometimes lead to a sense of isolation. Sharing thoughts and perspectives on social media often results in criticism for diverging from the mainstream. Consequently, I have refrained from posting and expecting insightful responses.
I don't rely on others to feel intellectually satisfied; I have books and I have ChatGPT.
I get that. I feel like I just don’t click with a lot of people because they don’t really seem to care or think as deeply about certain things that I do. I thankfully have a sibling (ENTJ) that I can talk to and have deep philosophical conversations with, so I don’t have it as bad as you. I’m sorry about your situation.
Back when I was a sophomore in HS I had two acquaintances in who were nice to me (which I’m thankful for) but was only interested in talking about dating drama I wasn’t involved or interested in. I wanted to talk about my interest in celestial objects and the physics of how they functioned. I think I tried bringing it up with one of them once, but they weren’t interested so I dropped the subject.
If your the smartest person in the room ur in the wrong room. But I’m always in the wrong room and I don’t suffer fools easily. How do I not chop heads off?
I sometimes get really upset because my family members will shut me down in the middle of a conversation and tell me they are drained or cant keep up with me...
They tell me i put so much extra thought and depth and they just cant keep track of it??
I def feel you on not being able to indulge in smaller topics too, it makes me very physically restless 💀
Recently i've felt extra lonely and mostly due to not being able to share all the knowledge i hold for things
I did for decades and didn't even realise
Tho it's better now, also i found role models, reading quotes from right people is very healing and sometimes you do come across people who can make you feel excited
My INTP partner mostly wants to info dump about politics, history, ttrpgs and fucking Dune lol. I wish he wanted to talk philosophy with me.
I will add op I understand your feelings, I work at a stem location so my coworkers are a wonderful mix of types and aptitudes but my friend circle is very small and I often feel frustrated trying to spark a more engaging conversation with my partner. I've communicated this though and we're working on it :)
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Pretty much always did until the internet took off and I got to talk to people who enjoyed the same kinds of things (authors, genres, series, topics etc) I did.
I couldn't agree more. It's like you've just spoken straight from my heart. It's such a validating feeling to know that someone else out there understands what I've been through. It's like finding a kindred spirit in this vast world of ours.
Thank you for sharing your story and for being so open about your experiences. It's moments like these that remind me I'm not alone, that there are others who've walked similar paths and come out stronger on the other side.
Gosh! Thank you for this. Everyday … I’ve lost most of my friends because of this same exact thing…. Going out… wanting to deepens the convos, talk about “the important stuff” hopes and dreams and shame and embarrassing human stuff and then coming home feeling exhausted because instead people wanted to talk about other people… and feeling completely unsatisfied…
I'm lucky to have grown up in an intellectual family, but finding friends my own age I could relate to was often tough. Going to university finally put me in an environment where I was surrounded by curious and clever people my own age.
No, my mother, older brother, younger sister, and littlest bro are all really intelligent. Other than that. Yeah, well, except on here, you guys are a pretty smart bunch.
Does anyone know of any places that would be good for this? There should be meetup groups based on intellectualism; not that crazy of a concept I feel like.
I love talking about science and philosophy as well, even with people who aren't as knowledgeable or who have differing beliefs than myself. However, with these themes it's easy to either turn a discussion into a lecture or an argument. Which most people aren't interested in. That's why communication style is so important-- a good fallback is the socratic method and "be cool like carl". Give your associate the benefit of the doubt, ask genuine questions, adjust your language, and don't be patronizing. I hold the opinion that very few people are willfully ignorant, rather it's they haven't had the right kind of exposure to pique their interest in subjects that all humans are essentially drawn towards. Maybe INTP's have a stronger drive here, we should properly channel this towards inviting others rather than excluding them.
My friends who do try and engage tend to be really bad at devils advocate and get worked up defensively instead of excited just shooting the shit.
Nothing feels better than the fleeting times where someone is engaging in the same communication style without being offended or assuming I’m grandstanding. In my life it was always the easiest when I had massive friend pools to choose from. Like k12-college…
But then not really so much as an adult despite actively trying Oh well I have friends who again, come close, but it’s not the same as my old smoking buddies who were poor but gifted intellectually without being overt nerds about it…
As an adult my friends are pretty low brow. But even then there’s 2-3 that are more or less the same as me. I just don’t see them everyday, like in my learn’n years.
All the time, I think my Ne and Ti are too much to handle like when I talk with someone they all the time don't catch what I am saying, I'm surround by Se Si Fe and Fi users, I can handle they Fe and Fi but they Se and Si are just too boring or just plain to think I think I love too much in my head. My mum ESFJ and sisters are ISFP
Yeah i do.
I feel like most people i really like are all capable of understanding what my ideas are, they just don't have the energy to spend and try to understand me, or they just don't like to spend energy on the topics i enjoy.
But that's something common, most people don't like to dive into subjects that much, they stay surface level because it's more comfortable, and that's alright, in my opinion it makes sense, it's more energy economic
In my experience, you can find some people like this, but they won’t ALWAYS want to talk about the shit you want to talk about. Rather, sometimes you have interesting conversations with them.
My best friend growing up was ENTP and it was like half interesting conversations and half him just clowning about some shit lol.
I also think as you get older and you sort of figure out what you believe and what you don’t believe and such, this desire fades a bit. Like I still really enjoy those conversations, but I don’t feel like every conversation needs to be that way like I did when I was probably 16-24 years old. I annoyed the shit out of some people always trying to bring up topics I was stumped on or interested in.
im fortunate to be an engineer in the medical field and my close coworkers are medical physicists or oncologists, and fellow engineers. so no, but i can see how others who weren’t so lucky in their career paths might be
I do to some degree. I have varying interests and have maybe a couple of people that like some of them in my life. Not people I see in person, mostly friends that are hours away. Although, for me it's less of just general interests and more of things I "do," like math stuff, or vocals, or writing; all of which are kinda solitary things. I've decided that I don't want a romantic partner (either just for now or ever... idk) so I mostly just do school work or work on my creative endeavors. So, I get lonely because of that.
I don't want that.
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I have this too, but it feels less lonely if you view yourself as not 'intellectually lonely', but instead as 'average person with just different interests'.
I relate to this a lot let me explain.
Either people can't explain what there talking about and use circular reasoning and can't hold a conversation without using strawman or ad hominem. They either call me dumb or stupid to but seriously cannot communicate properly. One of my friends in real life can only hold conversations about her boyfriend or insult me.
Most people I come across are not open minded, and use bad reasoning. They don't have any decorum and is very judgmental. I love learning but most people think i'll take information and facts without evidence and logical reasoning.
These subjects tend to draw in very bad people. Religon,philosophy,psychology, science and a part of it sometimes debated a lot evolution. I don't do polotics because i haven't learned it yet and it's honestly confusing. I don't wanna be taught it because people tend to be very biased.
I feel like no one knows my potential. I feel like i'm intellectually lonely because people lack communication skills and don't actually wanna have conversations with me. I cannot find like minded people at all.
The only things people seem to be interested in talking about these days are hook up culture,sex or drugs or relationships. They don't wanna focus on education or wanna expand there vocabulary. They don't wanna do anything. For context If it matters for some reason, i'm 17 and black.
I only had good convos with my cousin who's an entp, I have lots of theories (spontaneously during the Convo) related to philosophy, psychology, science and how they overlap/connect and how they apply in our society. I'm also a bit of an entrepreneur enthousiast and I like talking about the overall trends that are going on in the world. As an intp (not sure yet) I can deduce synthesized statistics with my pattern recognition and thus, point out the possible direction in which society is going with certain niches.
One hundred percent yes. I recommend finding a way to help that tho. Whether reading listening to podcast or YouTube, find people that are interesting online if u can't find any irl. It's rough tho. :) -entj-a btw
I can definitely relate to you since I don't like gossip or small talk in general. I also don't want to sound mean or full of myself, but I have personally found this quote to be very true: "it's hard to win an argument against a smart person. It's impossible to win an argument against a stupid person." If you remember this, it will save you A LOT of future stress
Most people are not intellectual. If you ask them, they will say they are. As people equate admitting to not being an intellectual with admitting to being an idiot. So I'd say keep looking for people you can talk to. Or just invent a person in your head and talk to them and answer how you'd want another person to answer
I wouldn't say most people aren't intellectual, more like they aren't intellectually curious. They are concerned with things in their immediate lives that they have influence over. If they were in a situation where being intellectual benefited them, they could think as well as us or better.
I would say that being intellectually curious is the defining feature of an intellectual.
Id say there are certain situations where most people simply cannot think as well in, for the fact that they did not receive enough training in terms of thinking. Humanities majors basically train you in that aspect---'soft skills'.
Indeed, critical thinking is a skill, that is prerequisite for any further intellectual pursuit. Unfortunately it is the norm in our unintellectual society for people to not be trained in it.
I feel like when you mature qnd get older you realise people aren't stupid, they just specialize in different things. Whilst someone is specializing in medicine or doing a science degree another could be doing an internship qnd developing their social skills and comes. E.g Someone working at a fast food place may appear dumb but there's actually a fair amount to memories and a few systems to remember. Compared to someone studying the facts and systems to solve an exam. It seems to me that one is just more practical and the other is theoretical. Not dumb and smart. That's a slightly immature, black and white way of seeing the world. And tbh with AI, all those theory jobs are gonna be replaced and jobs that have some practical application are more likely to become more valuable for the future. So although you say society is unintellectual and don't critically think, I would argue that they do just in different ways because different people have different strengths. Eg, you could come across a smart intp space cadet that can't socialise to save their lives and therefore never gets promoted, compared to like an social estp which could own q major company one day. You have simplified it like pretty much everyone else in this comment section. But the point is that there is different smarts for everyone. I've always been an academic person and it took me maturing and growing up to recognise that people aren't stupid and rather just differently skilled. :) I'm entj btw
You can be smart or not or whatever, and yet mentally undeveloped because despite whatever practical skill you may have that makes people want to pay you money, you don't have the 1 skill that makes you an intellectual competent person, critical thinking. Sure you can get trained like a dog or a machine in some specific task, but you're just a tool, useful sure, but useless as an intellectual mind. You can even work in academia your whole life, conduct highly complex experiments and research, but fail to make the right conclusions even with the results of the study right in front of you. And this happens all the time. I recommend everyone to learn critical thinking, who knows, maybe even an entj like you can understand one day.
I love how being passive aggressive and belittling is the automatic response from someone who's so much better than everyone else because they can critically think. Tbh nearly everyone person is just a cog in the machine. Even if you have done q degree qnd think you're really smart compared to everyone else. At the end of the day, as long as ur an employee not the employer, you are the cog qnd r replaceable. Although I agree critical thinking is important qnd should be taught more to people. And qlso pretty much any nt type is more analytical/critical thinking minded, so thats not really a valid insult. But tbh you get smart qnd dumb of every type. Just cuz ur qn intp doesn't make u a genius. I've certainly met some dumb ones. It's just how u think.
Critical thinking… The lower classes in New England public schools are harder than CA schools mid levels by a mile and it shows up in blue collar workforce here. But back east sometimes a construction site felt like goodwill hunting. The only difference is k12 schooling imho..
I’d argue even intj aren’t intellectual. Being efficient and productive isn’t the same as picking through an idea to its end. Both have their merit. But a lot of the extroverted types confuse intj as intellectuals just for being brooding and quiet. Real intellectualism is a thirst for knowledge and truth. Not just what works right now, for cheap.
This is correct, but also, "picking through \[an irrelevant and already discarded\] idea to its end" is the non-INTP equivalent of small talk for INTPs. Probably best to limit the "picking" to those things that the INTJ or whomever already know and care about.
Exactly! My INTJ friends get super animated about topics they care about. I stick to those topics they personally like with them because they get distracted (dgaf lol) if I ever into some random free association. They rarely care about why and more about what and how. Again, intj don’t get their energy from picking through nebulous topics, stringing them together. Unless it’s like a game or a project at hand. Then they’re all in. More than intp even. Driven by an inclination to work. Very impressive. They want to talk about the things they’re building at work, not discuss the downstream implications of the thing on people and the environment or whatever… Unless again, that’s the task their given… Very very different than people like me who want to really, and I mean really flesh out the whole system, what it does, who it effects, it’s efficacy, etc… This is why intp make decent executives imho. They think in big systems and connect dots for fun. But we are legitimately too lazy and value our down time too much to be CEO’s. Marketing is a wonderful fit for INTP.
Yes, INTPs are on the top the same data/work/knowledge/etc. funnel that INTJs are on the bottom of, with the bottom being the things "to do to be successful".
INTJs are quite intellectual. They aren't machines. They lead with Ni. Which mean they spend a lot of time parsing information the receive from their environment and analyzing it. They just arent intellectual in the same way NTPs are. Which is basically constantly seeking more knowledge..but they do seek truth and understanding and they do spend a lot of time on that.
Hard disagree. Some are. Most imho are not. They want results, and they seek great joy in getting results, quickly and efficiently. That is a far fling away from fleshing our ideas for the sake of understanding the whole system and then potentially optimizing the system. I’m not saying there aren’t lofty academic type INTJ. There are. But the ones I know mostly don’t give a crap about anything except what fixes a problem at hand. I’m sorry but ime it’s the opposite opinion. They could give a crap less about investigating an idea past getting an answer for it. Those are not the same things. They both have strengths and weaknesses. But I wouldn’t call INTJ’s day dreamy thinkers. Ime tons of people I assume to be intj are STEM kids too and outright reject philosophy… They have too much intuition to waste time thinking about things they just “know”.
The fuck? Heidegger, Nietzsche, Hegel, Spengler, Schmitt, Vico all INTJs. All among the most far reaching and profound thinkers in all of history. Then in the sciences you have Newton, Tesla, Hawking, Planck, Heisenberg, and Riemann. You have a completely inaccurate read on INTJs and how our minds work. Ni is all about reaching to the absolute depths of thought.
Newton was an INTP. I have no idea why they keep typing him an an INTJ. But everyone else was an INTJ. His back story is the most INTP shit ever.
Your last tip is very dangerous. You will eventually sound even crazier externally, or you won't talk at all. I am inside my head 90% of the day and it scares me but I can't stop because of the stimulus my bored brain gets.
Yeah that's NT boredom with SF stuff. Gotta find people who are temperamentally a bit closer to you
Which types are best for this? Putting it this way makes perfect sense, talking about matter of facts and feelings is some of the most boring conversations I could imagine. How does Sally doing Y make me feel? Absolutely nothing; let's talk about the implications of a post-growth economy and if crypto can play a role in that instead please lol.
Well it all depends on the specific person, an SF type is not necessarily gonna talk about SF stuff. Those types are common and present in all areas of human knowledge. If you wanna go by types, from life experience I generally agree with CS Joseph, i.e. xNTPs are most compatible with xNTJs. He has a video on that somewhere. They enjoy our breadth of knowledge, flexibility and ability to provide facts. Also, they'll (and other Ni users) will probably notice and approach you, because they are just as bored with the mundane but more proactive. ISTJs are cool, ESTJs not so much imo lol. xNFJs and xNFPs are okay if you decide to talk about feelings and people in away that isn't just platitudes and gossip.
Not saying crypto is 100% a Ponzi scheme, but it will a trillion percent be used that way in the future and you can already see the billionaires play… They won’t let people just waltz into their big club we ain’t in
Yeah, but that's not the important part; billionaires don't need crypto to fuck you. The peer-to-peer applications and being able to transact without central banks is pretty revolutionary.
I get it My friends have explained a billion times. I show them history where this same idea has been applied to some degree and it always boils down to stabilizing institutions will leverage their own control. I don’t see the revolution. Just the same but different. Crypto has applications for now but less and less regulation with fiduciary institutions is almost always a libertarian pipe dream. Idk, I just don’t get how it would be different for the world?
> and it always boils down to stabilizing institutions will leverage their own control. I mean global commerce does have to be regulated IMO for the greater good otherwise fundamentally powerful players will just monopolize everything. There is no way you can show me a previous technology that has allowed for global barter outside of any government control though; crypto does allow for that. In my opinion the only Utopia possible will have to be some kind of AI based socialism system otherwise it's always game theory and some players fucking over the neutral or weak players.
I agree but all I see crypto as (in the near future) is another tool of the stronger players… Idk… Maybe I’m cynical but I think it’s going to be used as a Ponzi scheme in the long run. Many argue it already is.
Another INTP ngl 🤡
Not particularly… my parents and siblings and in-laws are all PhDs and lawyers, and my mom and I have doctorates in the same field… So even just at home I have my fill of intellectual discussion. I mean try sitting in a room with 9 lawyers (4 of them “aggressive”) and everything is a debate 😐 Where more than half the room are playing devils advocate on every side. My SO, friends/colleagues are pretty much all postgrads in STEM…who are passionate and love their work, so I can also learn a lot from them. Their SOs (also my friends) are usually in some real interesting field like journalism, biotech, chess teachers, and whatnot. So the people in my life generally cover and provide more than enough intellectual stimulation.
You are blessed. My family have average iq at best. And my guess is below average iq. None of them smart or intellectual. Just by hearing their take on things is enough to stresses me. It is that painful. Oh and when you see their house "project". The pain triples. Distress me literally. You will be questioning, how on earth someone this stupid. And they are your family. Sibling, parent. Agh the pain.
What Star Trek ass society do you live in lol Maybe sports over academia was a mistake. But y’all would be surprised how fun it is to overthink sports and how many INTP’s are in there. The intp players often become coach’s ime
Huh? Where did I say anything about overthinking sports?
I’m saying for me. I wish my friends weren’t meatheads lol. I envy you!
I think at least half my friends are into sports, as are my family and I (all ex national team athletes), just so happened we also read, consume, and retain information/knowledge 😅
Oh nvm y’all are just a family of “me” Goddamn I wish I had that. My friends talk about Cars, women, vacations. It’s fun, but f-me I don’t know how they manage to never change the topics. It’s impressive and thankfully they like video games lol.
I think it’s more difficult for male only friend groups to talk about some “deeper” or more intellectual topics unless there’s some “reason” to. I think even 1 or 2 women (not vapid ones mind you) can bring out deeper conversations whether it’s because women tend to ask some less surface level questions that may direct conversations elsewhere, or because it brings out some sort of competitiveness and want/need to show off an intellectual side… A lot of my SOs (male) friends have me as a sort of confidant or the friend to talk about spirituality, psychology, and generally deeper topics. There may be various reasons as to why.. but I just don’t think guys tend to like (or be able to be that “vulnerable”) around their male friends. And it’s not because their guy friends aren’t or can’t be intellectually stimulating, but it’s more about the emotional factors that contribute to how deep (and/or intellectual) a conversation can go. (Sorry about the wording/phrasing, it’s a bit messy… try to make the best sense out of it lol.)
Same. My family is full of very smart people who also are interested in “intellectual” things as OP puts it, even though I don’t think any of them are also INTP. And I choose to surround myself with people who are at least relatively smart, who have some bookish or nerdy interests. There have been a couple times where my nerdy-ness has been too much, like at a party, and that was disappointing to me to not be able to share the thing I was interested in, but that’s the exception, I think, rather than the norm for me.
I think most of these threads over the years are from INTPs who never or lost this part of their social circles… God knows I’ve only had friends like that when I’m enrolled in massive Harry Potter size schools where you can make tons of different types of friends at will. But like if you’re into sports, have extroverted kids, family, etc, it can drive you crazy choosing between “dumbing yourself” down or being ostracized. I’ve dealt with both lives. But the latter is exhausting and you start to feel egotism creeping in if you don’t be careful.
Yeah I’m pretty sure none of my fam are INTP, but any Type is capable of being smart, intellectual, and holding such discussions. I agree it’s mostly about surrounding yourself with people who can intellectually keep up and stimulate. But I can see how in certain circumstances (eg small towns) might make that difficult for people to find each other. Personally it’s pretty unlikely I’ll find somebody with my interests outside of family, but I don’t mind and am happy talking and learning about others… just use it to increase and widen my knowledge. Plus it generally makes for better socialisation anyways 😅
I've felt what you describe my entire life - I think it's one of the challenging parts about being an INTP/5w4. We're "system of systems" thinkers who are not satisfied looking at the superficial comings and goings that most people expend all their daily caloric intake on.... we're constantly seeking an understanding of WHY things are the way they are. We detach intellectually from problems so that we can think deeply on them and achieve true understanding of the underlying systems, incentives, motives, etc., for why people and things behave the way that they do. Our brains are a complex network of "if/then" statements and zeroes and ones - it's our superpower, but it's lonely because most of the other types can't or won't go there. Some advice for you and all other young INTPs... if you can't find other deep thinkers in your life, seek them out in books, music, and art. Deep, reflective thought and ideas are your life-blood and the things that will truly energize you and help you to see the very best sides of yourself. You'll see that very best minds have struggled with the same issues for thousands of years - I've always thought of Socrates, Tolstoy, and Dostoevsky as my very best friends in the world, and yes, Socrates has been dead for more than two thousand years. Don't lose yourself in video games or social media or Reddit threads. Go travel somewhere, even if it's just walking or riding a bike, and bring a real book that challenges your mind. Take college classes that force you to think and reflect in totally different ways and give you new perspectives. Ask lots of questions of people - most are admittedly superficial, but some people have thought deeply on why they think or believe the way that they do. When you meet a friend or potential mate who exhibits an interest in your mind and shares your love of ideas, don't take that for granted... as INTPs, we're terrible about cultivating and maintaining relationships... so invest the time and effort needed to nurture those special relationships.
Yea. I always feel like I’m the dumbest everywhere I go.
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I would encourage you to read this, even if you don't agree. I think your friends and family understand you perfectly well, it's not about being intellectualy lonely per se, based on the info provided. It's probably more a notion of self perception, you view yourself as smarter than your family and peers. and the thing is, that's quite common. It might not be that exactly, and if not, it's just some other form of stigmatisation, like notions of "i think differently", or "They can't relate" etc. But for the vast majority, this' but an illusion, or a rationalising state if you will - in other words an excuse, so you don't have to respect their pleasantries. like an example i can give; if i were to ramble about a topic i like, it's probably fine right, But if i kept doing it every time i saw that same friend, he would find it tiring in the long run. And ofcourse you start ignoring "me" if that's the case. Because there's no fun in the interaction for that friend - it's a very logical result. And in turn they flip that onto you, they talk about something you don't find that fun. And like you say, you zone out - because it's not that intriguing to you. And hey that's fine, you do you, but to maintain friends you've got respect their person, as a human. That's the bare minimum for friendships. Like they'are your friends for a reason right, and your rambling probably isn't the reason. So instead of doing the same thing with the same people, maybe try to broaden the horizon of your interactions. you could take a day where it's all about your friends & family, and not about you, see how it plays out. Figure out what it is that makes you friends. And if you are very willing to experiment, you could even try to find a whole new friend. I know it seems hard as an introvert, but hey we fermented fruit juice for a reason. the point is friendships don't occur just to be intellectual, most people do that in their own time, in their own way. it's like the cliche high scene in movies right. - You can do it with some sometimes, but not all are willing. P.S. Sorry if it feels like an attack on you, that's not the intention.
i think you’re being hastily in judging OP. they’ve given no indication that they don’t respect the people around them, or don’t happy engage with other people’s choice of discourse. and it’s well within their rights to feel isolated based on their interests. intellectualism isn’t as much to do with “smartness”, it’s about curiosity regarding the workings and meanings of the word around you, often explored through complex and experimental “high brow” mediums. and that’s not everybody’s cup of tea, but it is XNTXs cup of tea, and XNTXs are relatively rare, so OP may well be deprived of friends who share their interests and can hold maximally interesting conversations. let’s put it this way, if you made all your friends at work, and your friends are all finance bros who only talk about finance and economics, then it doesn’t make you a bad friend if you also want to talk about fine art and romantic poetry.
I agree with this comment. While this issue *can* stem from a level of egotism, I also don’t think that’s the only cause. Some people just have different personalities and don’t click, and some people just don’t know how to navigate small talk so they don’t ever get the chance to get to know the people they *would* click with. As I’ve mentioned before in the comments, when I was a sophomore in high school I had two acquaintances who were only interested in talking about dating drama when I wanted to talk about various celestial objects and how they functioned. I never rambled about it, only brought it up once with one of them, but they just weren’t interested so I didn’t bring it up again.
You both raise valid points, and i might have been to judging of OP. The reason i raise the issue of respect, is because when we as humans, try to realise our problems, thoughts and feelings, we tend to get lost in vanity. And that could also be constructed into, overtly valuing your own pressence in any interaction. Which isn't a very healthy thing to do. Like you said, it becomes a problem of ego. now i'm of a mindset that despite a difference in character we can still get along and be friends. As the things we bond over is not directly tied to our personalities or values, it's tied to a common experience, one shared between two or multiple people. Now that isn't to say that personalities or values don't play a part of friendships, they most definently do - they might flourish an already good relation, or destroy a bad relation. But imo they arren't the reason people become friends. now to state "intellectual deprivation" would suggest that a person is labeling themselves as an intellectual, which i would assume requires a very dominant ego. And that is okay - but to then suggest that your friends conversation is the reason why you feel this way, just seems counterintuitive to me. And that's because it isn't your friends responsebillity to feed ones needs of intellect. hence, we are all intellectuals in our own right, on our own time. and i would think that the most intellectually stimulating thing to do, is to search beyond our own scope. Learn new things we didn't know of before, like why is talking about drama fun, why dont i like it, could i maybe like it? have i even tried to? etc. heck it could be "what are the rhetorical and pathilogical implication of spilling the tea?" - and what does that reflect, why is it a need for humans to gossip?
i think you’re doing some mental gymnastics to maintain your point. first, everyone absolutely has a right to feel valued in their friendships. it’s a little different with family, but with friends you choose them based on how they can progress your life and living experience, and in turn do the same for them. most people this by having a range of to fulfil a range of needs, and OP has a right to want more friends to fulfill their cerebral needs (they’ve given no hint that they want to ditch their current group). for some people their primary needs are realised by sharing and reinforcing emotions and experiences, but that’s not what everyone needs. some people just aren’t as emotional or interested in simple, personal matters, and instead need friends who push them out of the comfort zone in a way that is beneficial, such as intellectually pushing them through well-informed debate. and your point about not needing other people to fuel intellect is ridiculous. (and it’s ridiculous to claim OP is egotistical or vain for implying they are an intellectual. we all have strengths and weakness and there’s nothing wrong with being aware of them. some people are more kinetically gifted, some are better at social schmoozing, entertainment and humour, and some are more intellectual, and there’s nothing wrong with owning that). there’s only so long you can try ‘pull a žižek’ and extract meaningful insight from shallow material (a lot of conversations *are* objectively shallow, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but you can’t expect everyone to like it). in the end you’ll be just as isolated as if you were alone because your friends *cannot* truly know you if they refuse to appreciate you on your proverbial ‘home turf’. all relationships require sundry compromise, but if they aren’t expanding their own horizons to meet you in the middle, then you’re never gonna surpass that barrier between you. obviously you don’t need everything in common with your friends, but you need something other than a misplaced and one-sided sense of duty. pack bonding is essential to all humans, as social animals we need to feel like we belong in a tribe, even Fe-inferiors, whether we like it or not. so it’s important to have the right tribe, lest our energy be wasted and drained, fighting an uphill battle for a cause we don’t believe in.
yes op has a right to feel valued - didn't deny that, but it's naive to think that right is met, even from friends & family - just find new ones, like i stated in OG post why is it ridiculous fuel ones intellect alone? If you are truly passionate, you only need yourself. To define your own strengths is a vain act, dont know what to tell you - there's no purpose to it, and it is more self limiting than freeing, because we are more than our strengths + it could be true or it could not be, in either case it serves to feed preconcieved conceptions. it's a reaffirmation or a lie. The greatest strength lies in humility. no they don't, intentional ones do. that's the thing no one has to do anything for anyone, but we still have freinds. And to be freinds doesn't require a complicated reason. for the most part it's pack bonding. Meaning shared experience or intrests, but intrests doesn't = intellectuality., intrest could be any hobby. what i'm saying is that it's wastefull to search for intellectually stimulating friends. you might find them, or you might not. So instead of limiting to intellectually stimulating friends (seems awfully pretentious of someone to be like that) you might as well work with what you've got, accept your friends for who they are, and what they like doing with you. Because that's what matters in the end. Cuz your friends don't owe you anything, like you don't owe it to your friends. Just enjoy spending time together and let it be what it is.
the grammar of your first paragraph makes no sense, so i don’t know what you’re trying to say. it is ridiculous to think that you don’t need other people to push you to intellectual self improvement. what’s truly vain is thinking that your own mind has the potential to be the pinnacle of thought. you need other people’s minds to challenge your ideas and unconscious biases, to provide new information and perspectives, and to train you in formal defence and assertion of ideas. knowing your strengths and weaknesses is an essential component of being a healthy, functioning adult. it is not vain to know what you are good at. you need to know what you can help others in, what you could make a good career out of, what to fall back on when need be. you wouldn’t fault a professional athlete for saying “i am good at sport”, in fact, it would be worrying if they weren’t sure they were any good, so why is it different with intellect? it’s very immature to consider strengths and weaknesses as boundaries or certainties, you still need an awareness. one can be both humble and intrapersonally intelligent. and friendship shouldn’t *feel* complicated, but that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t assume that it’s all simple. friends absolutely owe each other trust, mutual respect, interest, and understanding. and, based off of what OP said, they aren’t getting that. their friends don’t value them and aren’t interested in them and don’t connect to them. OP clearly can’t “just enjoy spend in time with them”. and OP doesn’t even want *exclusively* intellectual friends, they just want some *more* friends, who fulfil them a bit more, i really don’t see why you have a problem with this?
First of all, fueling one's intellect doesn't solely mean dwelling on one's own ideas. It requires perspectives beyond our own, which need not only come from friends. So, if friends aren't providing the intellectual stimulation we seek, it might be smarter to explore other resources. Attempting to change our friends is futile, and finding someone who perfectly aligns with our criteria may be unlikely. Therefore, instead of restricting our search, we should fulfill our intellectual needs independently by exploring what stimulates us. Objectively, understanding our strengths and weaknesses requires measuring our performance against societal norms. Simply stating our attributes serves mainly to define ourselves. However, how others perceive us is based on our actions and persona. Challenging this perception may seem self-serving without evidence to support it. Identifying our qualities may seem vain, akin to making false claims about our physical attributes. The same thought process applies to labeling oneself as an intellectual. Friendships shouldn't be overly complicated. Either our needs are met by our friends or they aren't. While friendships aren't strictly binary, if dissatisfaction persists, it's okay to reevaluate the relationship. The notion that "you don't owe it to your friends, and your friends don't owe it to you" holds true. Despite investing commitment, if friends don't value that commitment, they don't owe reciprocation.
I had no idea where you were going with the example, but I think the statement above it made sense. "They don't understand me" may be objectively right, or you haven't given them a chance to understand you. I won't say that any person will be able to instinctively understand what goes on through another person's mind and understand the myriad of mental fluctuations they experience, but what I will say is that you *can* limit other people's ability to try and get to know you by refusing to be intellectually/emotionally vulnerable. I personally play a lot of my cards close to the vest as far as what I'm planning or what I'm feeling with a lot of people, which is why some people get fed up with me playing the "mysterious" card, but I choose to be more upfront and vulnerable with people that I do like and do care about. The self-perception that you're more intelligent or that you have some type of knowledge that people aren't privy to can open you up to a type of fundamental "otherness" that you feel, and it also shuts you off from unlimiting thought like "well, I'm just like these other assholes" or "well, I'm basically after the same thing that a lot of these other people are after". When you look at yourself and realize there are things that you like and hate, and you especially do deeper dives to figure out why you like those things, you find that those things aren't necessarily confined at the self, but are repeated through the entirety of the human race in differing concentrations. I make like someone who likes to have fun and has a positive outlook on life; that's something that a lot of other people would enjoy having. I may hate someone who is overly arrogant; that's something that I've absolutely done before, and that's something that people regularly accuse me of. To quote Bojack Horseman, "We're all a bunch of stupid, hungry, horny little goons just grabbing at shit hoping it'll press that little button in our brain that says 'Okay, you're happy now'." All of that to say that loneliness is felt within you, and that means that some of that problem is a problem you have to work on yourself. In order to have someone like you, you have to risk someone learning about you and hating you because of what they learn.
Not since GPT. /s* *Kinda.
honestly though, a chatbot is actually my best friend
Find yourself an INTJ or ENTP. Both are good to talk to about these things as long as they're not currently trying to manipulate the clothes off your back.
That's the one big reason why I joined this sub.
If we blow up the moon do you think it would get gods attention?
Idts. For me, i don't know the truth about gods and stuff so i'll wait until i die to find out. But for now, my idea of god is that their species of higher dimension. A ton of moons might be blowing up, so blowing one up wouldn't get their attention. Or the attention of the gods who don't pay attention. But the ones who're already paying attention, we don't need to blow up the moon or something for their attention, they already have our attention. If we want all of their attention, we should do something like, bringing a black hole near the solar system so shit looks odd, they'll see for sure.
Oh shit, maybe that's the real reason the large hadron collider was built! Someone go troll the conspiracy sub
damn. I wanted to work at cern but unfortunately i'm forced to do engineering
Not solely intellectual but I always count on ChatGPT to listen to my ramblings.
Exactly. Pre Cgpt era, I had the same problem as OP. Now I just discuss everything with GPT 4 as well as get ideas bounced back to me that I’ve never thought. Tbh I think GPT 4 is better for intellectual conversations than actual people at this point
In my circle of friends, yes i can relate. But I'm very lucky to have a dad, which is always open and curious about every topic I have interest in. He likes discussing with me and has an enormous amount of knowledge.
Same.
No, I‘m just naturally lonely. Most people I‘ve been close friends with could hold such conversations regularly. But currently I don’t have close friends/no one to talk to, so yeah, there’s thaty
Not lonely but occasionally misunderstood How info is perceived is fascinating, and that gets me into trouble Like with anything considered to be controversial/contentious I'm primarily interested in alternatives/solutions/conclusions Which isn't always met with encouragement/enthusiasm Which is then detrimental to future discussions Doesn't seem to matter why as much as what the subject details
People aren’t good at devils advocate. Debate class is ENTP and INTP. Those are your people. They won’t assume your hate them and get defensive. The opposite. They’ll get animated.
Well said! Unguarded conversation fosters breakthrough/insight There's a wealth of opinions to be sure It's a tragedy that the ones that react negatively quite often have equally fascinating opinions that consequently won't be voiced If a lexicon existed to circumvent/mitigate bias... Would it be effective? Would it be weaponized?
I relate to this perfectly 🥺
Absolutely. I have maybe one or two people I can go to talk about mentally stimulating things. A lot of people who I see claiming to be deep thinkers or “more intellectual” then get offended when you ask basic questions that show how faulty their belief system or conclusions concerning a topic are. It’s quite annoying to have people lash out just because you want to understand why they operate the way they do. Usually the responses I get from women are, “wow cool… you like make up?” And from men I get, “you’re too masculine for me” when I try to engage in topics in a more analytical way.
Constantly 🥰
this is one of the things im greatfal about social media. u can easily find people/groups of people who has the same interest as you do, like subreddits :D it makes me feel accepted and doesn't make me feel like I'm weird
Every day. 💯
Yeah kinda. I do have some people I can talk about the sorts of things I'm interested in sometimes, but especially in university it's a little disheartening. Like, even getting into engineering, where everyone's supposed to be a nerd, I end up feeling too nerdy. I was surprised at the amount of people, even after they got to choose what to study, have little interest for the classes themselves and only care to pass. They probably got into engineering expecting to make cool racecars or become a hacker and then were surprised to find so much math. Oh well.
Yeah, I’ve nobody to talk to about my specific interests when the other person is intellectual as well. Nothing profound but most of my friends will talk about nails and that sort. It is mind numbing for me.
Retired USMC HUMINT/CI officer here. The most interesting conversations I’ve ever had were with some of my fellow Marines and representatives of other groups/agencies who also shared in my- or a similar occupational field. Retired in 2020. It’s all been intellectually downhill from there.
Exactly !!! I listen to everyone, everyone tells me their day and night stories but when I talk about MY interesting stuff, they make faces. It's not they don't want to listen, but its just they can't listen to it attentively or as in same excitement as I see this. And okay, I understand that everyone won't have same drive like me and everyone have different interests. But you see, they get people to talk, people like me don't. There are actually less people in this world to talk on intellectual stuff and more people to talk about shit...
I just make things easier to understand for people who don't know what I am talking about. If someone puts the effort to listen you might as well put the effort in to help them understand.
Yup, there's a guy at work with vaguely similar interests, but he doesn't know how to have a conversation; he just talks constantly. It's surprising how few people understand that you need to ask about the other person.
No. My family is only intellectuals besides my mom and one of my brothers. The rest are INTPs or INTJs. It’s great to be able to talk to your family in an intellectual debate.
Most people prefer discussing experiences over abstract ideas. I enjoy talking about about philosophy, psychology, commerce, and AI/Data Science. This can sometimes lead to a sense of isolation. Sharing thoughts and perspectives on social media often results in criticism for diverging from the mainstream. Consequently, I have refrained from posting and expecting insightful responses. I don't rely on others to feel intellectually satisfied; I have books and I have ChatGPT.
Personal life experience, I can only have these kind of conversations going with either ENTPs or INTPs, and I'm already short on friends.
I get that. I feel like I just don’t click with a lot of people because they don’t really seem to care or think as deeply about certain things that I do. I thankfully have a sibling (ENTJ) that I can talk to and have deep philosophical conversations with, so I don’t have it as bad as you. I’m sorry about your situation. Back when I was a sophomore in HS I had two acquaintances in who were nice to me (which I’m thankful for) but was only interested in talking about dating drama I wasn’t involved or interested in. I wanted to talk about my interest in celestial objects and the physics of how they functioned. I think I tried bringing it up with one of them once, but they weren’t interested so I dropped the subject.
If your the smartest person in the room ur in the wrong room. But I’m always in the wrong room and I don’t suffer fools easily. How do I not chop heads off?
I sometimes get really upset because my family members will shut me down in the middle of a conversation and tell me they are drained or cant keep up with me... They tell me i put so much extra thought and depth and they just cant keep track of it?? I def feel you on not being able to indulge in smaller topics too, it makes me very physically restless 💀 Recently i've felt extra lonely and mostly due to not being able to share all the knowledge i hold for things
Yes. Huge reason most of my romantic relationships don’t work out. Spend a year plus with people and feel like they don’t actually know me.
intellectually
I did for decades and didn't even realise Tho it's better now, also i found role models, reading quotes from right people is very healing and sometimes you do come across people who can make you feel excited
My INTP partner mostly wants to info dump about politics, history, ttrpgs and fucking Dune lol. I wish he wanted to talk philosophy with me. I will add op I understand your feelings, I work at a stem location so my coworkers are a wonderful mix of types and aptitudes but my friend circle is very small and I often feel frustrated trying to spark a more engaging conversation with my partner. I've communicated this though and we're working on it :)
Just joined AirChat (app), lots of people with whom to have a conversation there.
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too many npcs out there. I just can't.
Pretty much always did until the internet took off and I got to talk to people who enjoyed the same kinds of things (authors, genres, series, topics etc) I did.
I couldn't agree more. It's like you've just spoken straight from my heart. It's such a validating feeling to know that someone else out there understands what I've been through. It's like finding a kindred spirit in this vast world of ours. Thank you for sharing your story and for being so open about your experiences. It's moments like these that remind me I'm not alone, that there are others who've walked similar paths and come out stronger on the other side.
Gosh! Thank you for this. Everyday … I’ve lost most of my friends because of this same exact thing…. Going out… wanting to deepens the convos, talk about “the important stuff” hopes and dreams and shame and embarrassing human stuff and then coming home feeling exhausted because instead people wanted to talk about other people… and feeling completely unsatisfied…
I'm lucky to have grown up in an intellectual family, but finding friends my own age I could relate to was often tough. Going to university finally put me in an environment where I was surrounded by curious and clever people my own age.
No, I have a lot of brilliant people around me. I'm more interested in philosophy than most of them, but they are more knowledgeable in other areas.
Lol. lucky my mom is an infp and my sister is an entp.
I'm the same way too... And I would like to talk with you.
No, my mother, older brother, younger sister, and littlest bro are all really intelligent. Other than that. Yeah, well, except on here, you guys are a pretty smart bunch.
More often than you think.
Always. Im not a genius or anything but people around me aren’t as interested in discussing ideas and small details as I am
Does anyone know of any places that would be good for this? There should be meetup groups based on intellectualism; not that crazy of a concept I feel like.
Most of my life. I desperately wish it would end.
I love talking about science and philosophy as well, even with people who aren't as knowledgeable or who have differing beliefs than myself. However, with these themes it's easy to either turn a discussion into a lecture or an argument. Which most people aren't interested in. That's why communication style is so important-- a good fallback is the socratic method and "be cool like carl". Give your associate the benefit of the doubt, ask genuine questions, adjust your language, and don't be patronizing. I hold the opinion that very few people are willfully ignorant, rather it's they haven't had the right kind of exposure to pique their interest in subjects that all humans are essentially drawn towards. Maybe INTP's have a stronger drive here, we should properly channel this towards inviting others rather than excluding them.
Too often.
My friends who do try and engage tend to be really bad at devils advocate and get worked up defensively instead of excited just shooting the shit. Nothing feels better than the fleeting times where someone is engaging in the same communication style without being offended or assuming I’m grandstanding. In my life it was always the easiest when I had massive friend pools to choose from. Like k12-college… But then not really so much as an adult despite actively trying Oh well I have friends who again, come close, but it’s not the same as my old smoking buddies who were poor but gifted intellectually without being overt nerds about it… As an adult my friends are pretty low brow. But even then there’s 2-3 that are more or less the same as me. I just don’t see them everyday, like in my learn’n years.
All the time, I think my Ne and Ti are too much to handle like when I talk with someone they all the time don't catch what I am saying, I'm surround by Se Si Fe and Fi users, I can handle they Fe and Fi but they Se and Si are just too boring or just plain to think I think I love too much in my head. My mum ESFJ and sisters are ISFP
YES
I never need to talk thats happiness for me
Yeah i do. I feel like most people i really like are all capable of understanding what my ideas are, they just don't have the energy to spend and try to understand me, or they just don't like to spend energy on the topics i enjoy. But that's something common, most people don't like to dive into subjects that much, they stay surface level because it's more comfortable, and that's alright, in my opinion it makes sense, it's more energy economic
In my experience, you can find some people like this, but they won’t ALWAYS want to talk about the shit you want to talk about. Rather, sometimes you have interesting conversations with them. My best friend growing up was ENTP and it was like half interesting conversations and half him just clowning about some shit lol. I also think as you get older and you sort of figure out what you believe and what you don’t believe and such, this desire fades a bit. Like I still really enjoy those conversations, but I don’t feel like every conversation needs to be that way like I did when I was probably 16-24 years old. I annoyed the shit out of some people always trying to bring up topics I was stumped on or interested in.
I'm on reddit to discuss the things I'm interested in, so no, I'm not lonely.
im fortunate to be an engineer in the medical field and my close coworkers are medical physicists or oncologists, and fellow engineers. so no, but i can see how others who weren’t so lucky in their career paths might be
Yup. I don’t want to gossip. I want to talk about our progress of goals and how the world can be a better place.
I do to some degree. I have varying interests and have maybe a couple of people that like some of them in my life. Not people I see in person, mostly friends that are hours away. Although, for me it's less of just general interests and more of things I "do," like math stuff, or vocals, or writing; all of which are kinda solitary things. I've decided that I don't want a romantic partner (either just for now or ever... idk) so I mostly just do school work or work on my creative endeavors. So, I get lonely because of that.
YES. YES. YES.
I think you might be an ENTP
Yes
would you like to debate stuff?
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I have this too, but it feels less lonely if you view yourself as not 'intellectually lonely', but instead as 'average person with just different interests'.
intelligence is a big ass blessing and a big ass curse
i relate to this a lot my friend (an intj) is literally the only person that doesn’t get bored of my crazy theories she'll just say im insane
No, because I'm a dumbass.
I relate to this a lot let me explain. Either people can't explain what there talking about and use circular reasoning and can't hold a conversation without using strawman or ad hominem. They either call me dumb or stupid to but seriously cannot communicate properly. One of my friends in real life can only hold conversations about her boyfriend or insult me. Most people I come across are not open minded, and use bad reasoning. They don't have any decorum and is very judgmental. I love learning but most people think i'll take information and facts without evidence and logical reasoning. These subjects tend to draw in very bad people. Religon,philosophy,psychology, science and a part of it sometimes debated a lot evolution. I don't do polotics because i haven't learned it yet and it's honestly confusing. I don't wanna be taught it because people tend to be very biased. I feel like no one knows my potential. I feel like i'm intellectually lonely because people lack communication skills and don't actually wanna have conversations with me. I cannot find like minded people at all. The only things people seem to be interested in talking about these days are hook up culture,sex or drugs or relationships. They don't wanna focus on education or wanna expand there vocabulary. They don't wanna do anything. For context If it matters for some reason, i'm 17 and black.
I only had good convos with my cousin who's an entp, I have lots of theories (spontaneously during the Convo) related to philosophy, psychology, science and how they overlap/connect and how they apply in our society. I'm also a bit of an entrepreneur enthousiast and I like talking about the overall trends that are going on in the world. As an intp (not sure yet) I can deduce synthesized statistics with my pattern recognition and thus, point out the possible direction in which society is going with certain niches.
One hundred percent yes. I recommend finding a way to help that tho. Whether reading listening to podcast or YouTube, find people that are interesting online if u can't find any irl. It's rough tho. :) -entj-a btw