Compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. The Jews there also "attacked first", but it was justified. The October seven attacks were monstrous and massacred way too many civilians, but would Gaza a be justified in attacking Israeli military? Many would say yes.
Comparing the rape, murder and torture of innocent people to the Warsaw Uprising is disgusting. In the case of the Warsaw Uprising, the Jews were responding to those crimes, not committing them.
You are justifying Hamas burning people alive and raping women. That's wild.
fine, attacking israeli military is justified, also, attacking palestinian military is justified.
and if by any chance, the palestinians chose to use their own people as human shield.. its their problem right? because from the israeli side, its justified.
Do you just shoot the hostages when a guy takes a few because they're in the way? No, you don't.
Also, the history behind October 7 goes back to the continuous displacement and discrimination of Palestinians, which is why rebellion is justified. Unfortunately, that rebellion resorts to terrorism.
Also, the history behind the continuous displacement and discrimination of Palestinians goes back to their foolish decision to try and eradicate the jews instead of making peace AND A COUNTRY FOR THEMSELVES, which is why what they got is justified. unfortunately, the people in this earth are clueless to this fact.
They weren't there originally and when you kill 3000 to 1 person you can't keep playing the victim complex. Any country with an appartide system and segregation dosnt deserve to exist.
Ok, so because they didn't accept their displacement, it's justified to lock them into Gaza, discriminate against them in the west bank and bomb them? I don't think that makes sense.
Oppressors and oppressed are not the same. Jews sin the Warsaw Ghetto were justified in shooting German policemen, German police was not justified in shooting Jews. Don't you agree?
cant recall a single jew there that tried to burn children alive or rape girls, can you?
see the difference? even at the hardest times the jewish community had to go through, which is by far worse then those "poor" palestinians are going through, we were still not even close to the barbarism of the palestinians.
had the palestinians only attacked soldiers, MAYBE u had any sense in that logic (u wouldnt, but who cares)
each and every time i use ur own logic to trip you, when will u call it a day and realize ur whole way of thinking is just wrong lol
I am an athiest but I will quote the bible
Fun fact: Bible was before Islam was created, other fun fact Judism started in Egypt so should they go to Egypt if you are using ancestory card. Last fun fact, Palestinian are Semite same as Jewish people so they come from the same region.
Many pin the current situation on Britain but I’d say Jordan and Egypt who annexed Palestinian territory and subjugated them, are the modern architects. The Arab state barred Palestinians from becoming citizens, owning property and forcing them in to refugee camp that are generations older then the ones in Gaza. And this is when Palestinians sought asylum there.
Arabs have ethically cleansed kurds for decades .. same with turks and iranians they play the genocide card against the jews because it suits their narrative
That's the dumbest thing I've heard, you aware of the fact that most news outlets bias towards the Palestinians?
Also anything that coming out of Gaza have 0 creditability which is their primary source.
Incorrect, terms like "horrific" and "slaughter" are disproportionately used to describe Israeli deaths, but not Palestinian deaths
https://preview.redd.it/xkshjbths9oc1.png?width=1090&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d48d0894dc59584029b2aa5d7876a2eefb2bbefd
The numbers given by Gaza have historically been relative with Israel's in the past, they list identities of the victims, not to mention the [Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) believes they're accurate
Modern West Asians whether Jewish, palestinian, druze or Christian can trace DNA back before the Canaanites. Biblically it's Judean tribes from Ur that came to invade and commit genocide, archaeologically we know this is a myth as there largely the same people and history can teach us that although Jewish peoples largely fled Hadrian, many who remained were Jewish Messianic Christians who helped start the early church and were later romanised and arabised in the same way that caananites were largely Israelised. Being a levantine state means that it's a very mixed placed but indigenous West Asians have provable heritage from before 10th century BCE lol.
Pro Palestinians shout louder. They think that the Palestinians are the underdog while in fact they have support from all the countries that surrounds Israel. They are being fed up with lies - the media is twisting what's happening plus the palestinians are very good with directing fake videos. They believe antisemitic movements because they impersonating as human rights advocates. They don't know the truth. They are following the herd. I There's a large number of Muslims that are anti - Israel and some of them are investing in this narrative,
At the end - Israel tries to protect itself, prosper and be peaceful while its enemies are trying to destroy it (You can easily look for how many wars Israel had and all began by the enemies) and they spread lies and exaggerate and showing one side and it has been assimilated.
Well I am a pro palestinian and I consider myself as a rational person who is not affraid of questionning my opinion and even completly change my mind if it happens that I am wrong. You are saying that I am only brainwashed because I have been looking to propaganda/fake videos ans lies. I am welling to sit still, requestion myself. The question is are you willing to do the same. Are you willing to ask yourself these questions :
- what if I am all wrong about it ?
- what if I am the one who has been brainwashed ?
- what if I am the one who is biased ?
- what if I am the one who has been lied to ?
- what evidence I have been looking at ?
- what if the truth is elsewhere I was looking ?
See all of us don't sit still and genuinely ask ourselves these questions. We immediatly make assumptions about others, and we all live in this bubble of believing that we are the good people and others are the bad people. I hope we can have a conversation in witch we both seek THE TRUTH and nothing else but the truth.
Peace to you
When one side has openly made their goals about their hate towards Jews known for decades, have started every war with the Jews and then commit one of the worse massacres ever I find it hard to believe you think you're in the right. HAMAS have already denied a ceasefire proposal. It doesn't seem like the Palestinian Gazan side is open to peace or has ever been.
Well I believe you must be a good person, but unfortunatly you are wrong about everything you just mentionned. Sometimes we can just be wrong about something. It happens and it's totally okey to set still and rethink and doubt everything. You know why ? Because as long as we consider ourselves good and honnest people we must seek the truth even if this truth goes against what we always used to believe. If you want to have a conversation about it, I am willing to.
I understand what you're saying and you are correct. But you're not taking your own advice here. HAMAS aren't freedom fighters. They want power and money. The leaders live in a 5 star hotel in Qatar and are worth billions for a reason. Go and read up the HAMAS charter, they are literally built on the idea of destroying Israel and the Jews.
Look at this : it's in the West bank where there is no hamas. https://youtu.be/JBkNDNj05XA?si=j64Fxwp23g0QhAQd
The probleme most israelis fail to see is what happens to the palestinians on regular basis for years now. They only see oct 7th but forget all the history before
saying there is no hamas in the west bank proves ur ignorant on the matter.
the only reason why there isnt election in the west bank is because hamas wouldve win.
please educate urself before commenting about the subject onlnie.
thanks.
no, again ur wrong.
by educating yourself i mean EDUCATE urself about hamas in the west bank, because only fools with no knowledge on this matter will think that there are "no hamas" there.
and because u sound like a guy who will say bs to everything that is israeli related,
all u have to do is listen to hamas, they do as much as tell u themselves when their terrorists WITHIN the west bank died commiting terror acts lol.
so YES, there are ALOT of "hamas" in the west bank, which is pretty obvious to literally everyone who took 5mins and studied about the situation properly.
Did I say the west bank isn't raided? The lions den and some Hamas wings still operate there. They still build tunnels into Israel and keep guns in mosques. That's not the same as being under siege and getting mk84 bombs dropped on you lol Gaza. Do you Hamas sympathisers not understand anything about the war?
People around soldiers are supposed to feel secure not scared and the girls look clairly terrified. The way these soldiers act so narcisstic and abusive. I mean look at the way they talk to these girls and ON CAMERA. Imagine what they do where there is no camera. Now if you tell me that you would be totally fine letting your 15 years old girl with these monsters than I don't have anything to say
I mean if you are a rapiest yourself then you won't be able to see the harassment that is clair on the video. You didn't see how they are intimidating these little girls ?? They way they talk about them ON CAMERA ? You don't say Babe to a 15 years old while you are doing service..that's power abuse and harassment. I Wonder of your daughter went to exact same traitement how would you react. It's mind blowing that israelis deny everything even if it's ON TAPE
Do you really believe there is only 1 exemple ? There are thousands and thousands of photages and proofs and reports from different institutions. But of course it makes you sleep well at night by just believing that this all conflict is about hamas. Look finding out the truth about what your country does as atrocities won't make you less patriote. The problem with you israelis is that you don't see the big picture which is absolutly heart breaking. You simply think that the world hate the jews and sympathize with hamas. The truth is that the world sees the genocide and the atrocities that your extremist governement do and they lie to you and even to the entire world. I am nicely giving an advice to question everything.
Watch this 3min clip : you will witness yourself war crimes and pur evil of your beloved israhell.
Open your eyes you are blindly supporting evil.
https://youtu.be/DhVV2_mub84?si=QmGtITrZqhHMwvXa
Calling Israel evil because of a couple incidents is very moronic. Have you seen the parts where Israel is opening humanitarian corridors? Or where they are evacuating people before striking targets? Or the part where Israel is roof knocking and throwing leaflets out of planes? I know it's hard to look at both sides when you're brainwashed but none of this would be happening if your freedom fighters didn't kill Israeli civilians. Don't play victim now.
The way you are portraying what I just sent you as " incidents " and not intent of brutal and evil murders tells me a lot about yourself. What I showed you is terrifying and horrible and inhumain but you caracterize it as just "incidents" . Seems that you don't have much empathy for humans who suffer brutally.
Calm down you seem so angry and not willing to question yourself. Look I am telling you lets both accept that we are brainwashed ( me and you together ) and lets find out the truth. What I am saying is that we both throw at each other the same argument : you are brainwashed and you don't see both sides. But humans always fail to question themselves. Come on ask yourself what if you are wrong. Are you willing to do it ?
Well the problem with you israelis is that you quickly jump into conclusions and into thinking that the world hate the jews which is very wrong. What you fail to understand is that you live in a bubble of believing that israel is a very normal country that was living in peace and who never intended to harm anyone and suddly the bad arabs who hate the jews because of islam wanted to attack. This the narrative that is being told in mainstream media and in your schools all the time and you fall for it unfortunatly. The truth is israel isn't a normal country, it's not like it's norway that never harmed anyone and all of a sudden it got attacked. You need to understand why that attack happened ( that I don't justify because I don't tolerate the killing of any innocent life, hopefully you will understand).
Here is the series of bad and evil intent that israel has been doing for years :
1. Settlments : they littraly attack innocent people in their homes, throw them out of their homes under the claim that the land belongs to israelis because it belonged to the jews from 3000 years ago. Do you tolerate this ? It happened to millions of palestinians that were displaced from their villages, killed and so on and its still happening until TODAY but you won't want to see it because you believe blindly that israel are the good guys and palestinians are the bad guys.
2. Those gazans that are 2.2 millions were living under a blocage, they were controled by israel and not allowing them to have an economy, airports water and electricity. Is this normal ?
3. Israel put CHILDREN in jail and not any jail but in military jail without even charges. Only assumptions that are in general false. But if you question any israeli they will simply tell you that these aren't children or they are terrorists children ( do you still see the trick or not ? Just call Those you want to kill and emprison terrorists and you are allowed to do whatever you want)
4. Lets talk now about oct 7th. How come that israeli one of the countries who has the greated intelligence and technology ever was attacked from the MOST PROTECTED area and who let all that happen for 6 LONG HOURS without doing anything. You don't find this suspicious ? well let me tell you my theory ( and you can laugh about it or call it conspirancy you are free ). Oct 7th happened yes but most of the claims were wrong. First of all israel wants to make you believe that hamas is supported by Iran. However hamas is supported by natanyaho himself. It's the hoax you still fail to understand. Israel needs an oct 7th to find a justified way to end the lifes of 2.2 million people in gaza because israel wants to OCCUPY gaza. That's the truth you will never want to see because you refuse to see the big picture and all of the economical interests that israel has in controling and taking the land of gaza. ( you can look it up ). Hamas attacked yes and I condemn it severly but the difference between me and you is that I see who made hamas and who has an interest into letting hamas survive : it's natanyaho and you can still find him saying that he supports hamas.
There is a hoax that most israelis fall for which is that israel do all the harm to innocent lifes ( settlments, emprisonment, murders ...) but it's enough to call it terrorism and you guys believe it. That's the same hoax used by the nazis themselves. They made the germans believe that the jews were a threat and that was justified to mass murder them. You see now what I am saying ?
What you should learn from history isn't that the holocauste happened but how millions of german were brainwashed into thinking that is morally right to genocide the jews. It's the same think that is happening right now with the palestinians. Unfortunatly another genocide is happening in front of our eyes and we justify it.
What I hope is that israel one day will be runned by good people and not corrupted extremists and will give the palestinians the same rights as israelis.
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I recommend you watch the film Tantura. It’s a documentary about war crimes, the coverup decades later and the persecution of a student who uncovered them. It is an Israeli film. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16378034/
Palestinians need to invest more in quality and not quantity in order to stop being the victim, in this world you are either strong and conquer or weak and get conqueres.
Like imagine palestinians dropping a 900kg on neteyahu's house as he sleeps in cesseria, his house is a legit target right? since israel does that to palestinians.
Or if they rpg drop from a drone on galant during a press conference killing him instantly with several journalists, israeli journalists are legit targets as well since they work for and to the idf right?
palestinians are a victim because they have been colonized and opressed for decades and there is no denying that, my dad's grandpa and his age group all should of mobolized in 1918 to overthrow the brtish colonial regime and should of obtained better weapons before the 1936 uprising to make sure they force britian out of palestine.
Had hamas invested in missiles that can knock out any israeli jet, drone, warship and iron dome obviously israel would be forced to sign a peace treaty within hours of oct 7 or risk returning the land to the palestinians.
It wasnt smart to attack without having such weapons.
Hamas doesnt invest in missiles. They aren't a military. They are a terrorist organisation who are an Iranian proxy and are known to dig up water pipes to build their rockets. Perhaps be open to peace and conversation like their west bank counterparts and don't attack Israel even if you had such technology!
Their west bank counterparts have became colonial colaberators that cant move or travel without an israeli permit. Even Abbas needs an israeli permit to travel anywhere.
If you think palestinians will stand living that way you are wrong. palestinians have rights and legit claims and wont perish away like native americans, not now not in 200 years. Israel bare no rights - only power which is why regardless of what palestinians do and how much terraforming zionists do, israel wont last as an ultra racist ethno state for jews that dont even believe god exists and god believing jews that believe israel has no right to exist before the mesiah returns.
and if you claim well look what hamas got palestinians in gaza - destruction and genocide, thats because they gave pretext for the americans to do so through their terror proxies - israel.
The west bank has a functioning economy with industry and manufacturing, they can move in and out of Israel with a permit, Gazans cannot even leave Gaza, they aren't being bombed etc. What else do you want me to tell you?
Palestinians have legit claims to what? Palestine was created by the Romans after exiling the Jews. You have no claim on anything. Im not going to argue with you about what a god nobody has ever seen says about Israel. The truth is Israel has won 6 wars against the Arabs. That alone gives it the right to exist.
You claim genocide but I've never heard of a genocide that has humanitarian corridors and evacuated people before striking buildings. You are repeating Instagram and twitter brainrot without knowing anything yourself.
I dont use twitter or instagram and as far as i know you kinda prove my point - palestinians need to modernize their army or not use violence.
We know through yusephus that not all jews were exiled, some were allowed to live with permits, like the pa - those were jewish collaberators that didnt join the first revolt. Incases like yodfat roman soldiers didnt allow jews for quite a while to bury the bodies of murdered jews, they let them decompose. Some cities werent touched by the roman empire and tax revenue continued to be generated after the revolt - indicating that not all jews were expelled. I cant dox myself but lets say i am an actual scholar in the subject, just 3 words and it would be extremely easy to dox me since.. yea anyway.
the revolt failed at the end, the jewish armies failed to unite and band together - yusephus claims he spent 6 months prepating the galil, and was betrayed at the end and instead of suiciding he ended up surrendering and living subjecated as a subordinate... and more over the revolt failed because the jewish armies didnt train or modernize themselves and stood no chance against the vastly superior roman army.
so by your logic palestinians will only get their right to exist after defeating the us backed zionist forces in war after war - which is exactly proving my point. the jewish rebels knew the romans would never change their way and give them freedom, so do the palestinians.
And as for never seeing a genocide with human corridors before, uhmm yea you actually did - the gassing didnt start in 33 or 39, germans werent happy jews werent dying fast enough after moving through corridors to concentration camps, famine and disease doesnt kill humans fast enough.
and as for the aid - i did the math in another post - its 0.0017% of required aid - including aid that fell into sewage, ocean, ruins and israeli settlement so the number is a lot less.
my point and you proved it - never attack a stronger opponent without proper weapons. i've seen countless f15 fly off from ramat david loaded with bombs and coming back empty only to reload. So ye, israelis can pull a golda and pretend palestinians forced em to do this genocide, that doesnt matter palestinians should of never attacked without having anti warplanes weapons.. just like the jews should of never attacked without having strong anti-seige weapons.
Palestinians should invest in supporting Israel and join Israel instead of investing in terrorism.
And for the love of god stop being a refugee country, they get 2M+$ every month and they invest almost all of it in terrorism.
At the end of the day Israel is the ONLY country that want to take care of them.
tf 2nd class citizens you talking about? 🤣 life of Palestinians or Muslims in Israel is far way better than other Muslim Countries. Come here in Israel to see it for yourself.
Oh u remind me of that american actor that filmed himself in mahane yehoda market in jerusalem screaming there is no apartheid here!..
well i am an arab 48 which means i am an israeli.. and being second class citizen isnt something i made up, its the reality of the ethnic hirarchy in israel.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-25/ty-article-opinion/.premium/reminder-in-israel-arabs-are-still-second-class-citizens/0000018d-dc40-d03b-a7cd-ffd854b70000
better than most muslin countries? not even close, but as it stands something depend on your status and family connections. but thats all going to shit soon once ben gvir becomes the next pm.
can i become a pm if i am more holy and zionist than yousef hadad? no. can i become a ceo of the railway company? no. can i become a pilot that roasts babies with 900kg bombs? no because thats positions set for jews only. we as arabs wont accept that ever.
Ye really funny your post has nothing to do with what i wrote. Deflect discussion - i am already an israeli citizen.
Dont think for a second i support hamas or violence. You can pretend hamas is isis rawr evil (hint isis in egypt executed hamas members and affiliates), but oct 7 didnt happen just cuz muslims are evil or palestinians bad. give em respect and a state and there wont be a need to resist. oslo alreadt took us out of the equation.
without a doubt the dumbest thing they did was go into kibbutzim and attack civilians, cuz they assumed israeli pilots wont bomb an israeli house if he knew his puppy or pet was inside it, wrong to ever go there morally and militarly. and even dumber was kidnapping palestinians israelis, cuz thats something useless to bargain with in the first place,
remember hisham? or avira? kidnapped for more than 8 years no swap or exchange now both prob dead.
ye and asking palestinian ambassador of fatah that is in us payroll about our hostages wont help, gotta pay hamas
ye ur post is gr8
https://haiton11.co.il/falcon-yield-2/?utm_source=Taboola&utm_term=ynet-articlesmobile_1183451&utm_content=3916500643&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=32833402&MPC_1=Taboola&MPC_2=32833402&MPC_3=3916500643&MPC_4=ynet-articlesmobile_1183451&MPC_5=GiBa7uazh7uE8MiWW9WnCppfHS8oIm8kEpX09jFx2NCRTSCTsE8oq8jF65e0vsGTAQ#tblciGiBa7uazh7uE8MiWW9WnCppfHS8oIm8kEpX09jFx2NCRTSCTsE8oq8jF65e0vsGTAQ
go buy a realeatate in dubai, advert for israelis
Splosh Splash your opinion is trash 🤣 tell to your fellow Hamas to get the fuck out of the tunnels and Dubai and meet the IDF face to face. Muslims are really stupid in any angle 🤡 Long Live IDF! 🇮🇱 erase these Hamas from the world map including their childrens 🤣
> fuck
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Kind of, it ended normalisation talks and forced the Sauds to announce they won't ramp up relations with Israel until atleast a solution is found regarding the occupation.
What's your point? He is a murderer and still in Jail. Israel dedicates a day every year in his honor. people that hadn't know him personally still cry about what happened. You and your people won't demonize my people
One of the main difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that Palestinians rule is 100% anti Israel while in the Israeli government there are people who want peace and extremists as well like there should be in a democratic government that represents the people.
Yes there were a lot of Israelis back then against 2 state solution but there were more people that wanted it.
While gaza rule is basically 100% let's kill all of them
>And since then everytime there was a war, the Palestinians started it.
>Even when every single time Israelites offered peace - even by giving back the captured Gaza at one point.
First of all, this is a false statement.
https://www.palquest.org/en/highlight/161/1956-war#:\~:text=On%2026%20July%201956%2C%20Nasser,on%20drawing%20up%20battle%20plans.
"On 26 July 1956, Nasser announced Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal and closed the canal to Israeli shipping.
France and Israel began planning for war against Egypt, and by the end of September the two began to collaborate on drawing up battle plans. Both hoped to involve the British, and a secret meeting held between 22 and 24 October in Sèvres, France, concretized the joint Israeli-French-British political and military plans to overthrow the Nasser regime. Israel was to invade the Sinai, after which Britain and France would intervene and force the two sides to withdraw from the Canal Zone on the pretense of bringing the hostilities to a halt. On 29 October, the Protocol of Sèvres was put into action: Israeli forces occupied the Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal, after which Britain and France bombed Cairo and landed troops at the northern end of the canal."
>Palestinians voted for Hamas.
There were a lot of things that influenced the 2006-2005 elcetions.
First of all, back then Hamas was succesfully trying to moderate its position. People were definitely not voting for a terrorist organizitation.
Fatah, the main opposition, that had been in power before the elections, was hugely unpopular and people wanted to see a change. There weren't a lot of options.
A lot of people were incredibly resentful, people who lost loved ones to the IDF, people who got displaced from their own homes just so some settlers can move in... it's really not that hard to see why Hamas won.
>Why can't they just co-exist and make peace?
>What is it that I'm missing?
The context in which all this has been happening.
Israel's expansionist ambitions and its backers geo-political interests.
The cruelty Israel has been perpatrating against Palestinianas for such a long time now.
The fact that doesn't matter how cruel and murderous Israeli meassures were, its backers (the West) kept supporting it with weapons.
You are missing a huge injustice against humanity.
The HAMAS charter in 1988 literally said their goal was to eradicate Jews and start a holy war with them. Do people enjoy being confidently wrong? The only reason HAMAS was voted for is because they were more extreme than the previous, now Fatah, government.
Do you realize that stopping trade is basically a declaration of war? There's a reason why the Houthis were attacked by a coalition of countries for trying to disrupt trade routes.
Hamas has always had, in it's charter, the eradication of all jews as one of it's main goals. Please, do tell how do you define 'moderate it's position'.
The context is pretty simple - they were offered a country, they refused, some stayed peacefully and got citizenship (israeli arabs) and other revolted violently and didn't (gaza/west bank palestinians). Afterwards, they were offered peace/lands multiple times, but kept revolting violently and targeting civilian population regularly, at which points defense measures were erected ('cruel and murderous', apparantly), which have been proven to be very effective at causing less people to die.
Mate, you are the one missing a huge injustice against humanity, and in doing so, you are supporting the extremists who make the life of the palestinian people so hard - instead of just co-existing in peace.
Jews just leave or find a way to survive, like when they were kicked out of every Arab country. Palestinians are professional victims and anti-Semites. I live in Canada and they are attacking Jewish people and organizations daily.
dont try to find logic in pro terrorists and pro rapists supporters. any other country will erase already gaza from this earth but israel drags on the war because it is not allowed to bomb gaza
Both have been on the land for a long time and have roots the problem is that neither group will admit that the other group has been there for a long time. It is always a competition of who’s been there the longest. We cannot deny the ties the Jewish people have to the land, many pro palestinians think all jews are white, forgetting middle eastern and African Jews, anyways them thinking this benefits their corrupt harmful ideology. We also can’t deny that Palestinians have been on the land for a very long time as well, and have been facing mass punishment for extremist groups. Also there are Gazans against Hamas but they will be killed if they speak up against them I would look up Moumen Al Natour.
Disagree that both sides don’t acknowledge each other. The upteenth efforts for peace always had one issue : rejectionism. Rejection of the Palestinian leadership to acknowledge the Jewish homeland or its people. Was any deal perfect/ prob not but at some point for the betterment of moving forward and giving your own people a chance to thrive you take it and move on and build something other than terror and hostility.
The rejectionism has been a key point in the fundamentals of this war, previous wars and decades to centuries of Jews not being accepted by any society.
Well we can see both sides not acknowledging each other on very pro Israeli sides they say Palestinians should leave and on very Pro Palestinian sides they say the Israelis should leave. Of course there are people who acknowledge each other, but in terms of government and extremist groups it’s a deadly competition
Both Jews and Palestinians have indigenous ties to the land. They both deserve a state they feel safe in and have dignity in. Palestinians deserve reparations for land that they lost, and Israelis deserve to be left alone like they’ve always wanted. Israel is not an infallible country, there are problems with racism and sexism- but that is the case in literally every place on the planet. Anyone who tries to say it doesn’t have those problems is selling you propaganda and anyone who says it deserves to be wiped off the map for those problems is doing the same thing.
>And since then everytime there was a war, the Palestinians started it.
Not so much...
And, let's look a little further back... at a time, Egypt referred to the region as Peleset, we would know it as Canaan... It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims.
Then, in 1945, seeds planted in 1890s or earlier grew, when the foreign zionist terrorist militias, menachem begins likud/irgun, the lehi, and haganah, launched "Plan Aleph", the start of their war against Palestine.
So, again, in 1945 Palestinians became victims.
In 1956 iirc, israel invaded Gaza and Egypt. Again, Palestinians became victims.
In 1967, again, israel launched another invasion of Gaza and egypt. Again, Palestinians became victims.
israel's invaded Gaza several times, again, Palestinians become victims.
But, generally, when violent european terrorists stole their country is kind of the headline answer.
Zionists raped and slaughtered native Palestinians, they rape and slaughter native Palestinians today.
If you wonder why the Palestinian Authority is less supported, it's because it was basically created by israel and the US to be losers, as a collaborator government, to basically betray their people for the benefit of israel and the US.
So, the Palestinian Authority basically never delivers the Palestinian people anything they really want because, as a creation of, a creature of israel and the US, it doesn't serve the Palestinian people, it mostly serves israel and the US. So naturally, it never really has much support. The irony being how israel supported from the beginning to today, Hamas, for the specific purpose of undermining peace and undermining the Palestinian Authority.
israel has always wanted Palestine to be weak, and encouraged infighting among Palestinians.
>Why can't they just co-exist and make peace?
Let's say the British come to India... India is rich in spices, it also has a large population, Britain wants both these things, Indias Spices, and it's labor, and also Indian land...
So Britain takes it.
The British are cruel to Indians, they kill Indians, they steal from Indians, they rob Indians of their land...
Why can't the Indians just co-exist and make peace with the British?
Foreign zionists come to Palestine... These foreign zionists come to learn a new invented language, new hebrew, one they're creating at the same time they're learning it for the first time. They take native Palestinian land, through land fraud, through the tower and stockade movement, through violent ethnic cleansing...
They were violent crusaders there to create a Jewish nation in Palestine against the wishes of the native Palestinians.
You can see yourself, many eagerly will compare themselves to the colonial powers conquering the Americas, displacing the native population to create a european nation on foreign soil through violence against the will of the native population.
How can anyone see zionism/israel as innocent?
There's so much revisionism and pop history in this message...
Starting with here:
> It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims.
And "Hebrew tribe" came from where? And the fact that modern Palestinians relate as much to Turkey or Syria or Iran doesn't bother you?
> the foreign zionist terrorist militias
Sure. Here's Haganah:
> Formed out of previous existing militias, Haganah's original purpose was to defend Jewish settlements against Arab attacks; this was the case during the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, the 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Palestine riots, the 1936 Jaffa riots, and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, among others.
I won't even continue. My question is how can one be so full of you know what?
> And "Hebrew tribe" came from where? And the fact that modern Palestinians relate as much to Turkey or Syria or Iran doesn't bother you?
Babylonia? Modern Iraq? I believe that's the historical consensus.
Yes, haganah were foreign zionist terrorists.
> Modern archaeology suggests that the **Israelites branched out from the Canaanites** through the development of Yahwism, a distinct monolatristic—and later monotheistic—religion centred on the national god Yahweh
As to your judgements, you can live them to yourself, "consensus".
Then you think wrong:
> The researchers also compared the ancient DNA with that of modern populations and found that most Arab and Jewish groups in the region owe more than half of their DNA to Canaanites and other peoples who inhabited the ancient Near East—an area encompassing much of the modern Levant, Caucasus, and Iran.
and here's what you wrote:
> we would know it as Canaan... It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims.
See the problem?
Again, showing genetic similarities doesn't disprove the external invasion history...
Unless you think they lived for a thousand years and didn't have any children...
Archaeology and DNA versus the story from Hebrew Bible... hmm
Anyways, this comment sums up the actual consensus, so you might as well familiarize yourself:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/16lv5y6/are_jews_canaanites/k1ax2tv/
You keep providing sources that don't argue the position you're trying to support.
>Most historians believe that they were hill peoples from the region to the west and south of Canaan. They descended to the plain of Canaan well after the major cities had been abandoned.
Canaanite society had collapsed to city states during the bronze collapse, the hebrew tribe came from outside and invaded the Canaanite cities, invading and conquering them.
Having conquered them, adopted parts of their religion, they intermingled. The hebrew tribe adopted a semitic language in common with the Canaanites as they adopted their religious traditions.
Israelis *were Canaanites*. They are culturally indistinguishable from what we call Canaanites and genetically related as much as any Arab you care to find. Now, present evidence to the contrary to back up your initial statement ~"Israelis conquered Canaanites (which are somehow Palestinians)" or admit it doesn't make any sense. Up to you.
>As of my understanding, Judaism is the oldest abrahamic religion and Jerusalem is its holy place from 10th century BC.
>Christianity originated from around Jerusalem and Jesus was a Jew himself by birth.
>So even the Bible proves that Jews lived around Jerusalem (the now land of Israel) since a long time than Christians and Muslims ever were.
Ok but people change religions. As Christianity and Islam proves.
Palestinians are the descendants of the Jews that originally inhabited the area. Most Jews never left the area, and instead just converted over a long period of time (though many didn't).
This is verified by genetic testing, modern Palestinians are much more closely related to the remains we find from that time than the European Ashkenazi Jews who started arriving a little more than a hundred years ago.
Those "modern Arab Palestinians" are a result of the Arab conquest of the Levant, where they proceeded to forcefully convert the Judeans and Israelites.
They werent forced. The conversion was extremely slow and took literally hundreds of years. If people were being forced, it wouldve taken place in a single generation. There was still a large Jewish population who had never left under the ottomans and they wrote extensively about their experiences. You should read what they have to say.
So why would they convert to an ideology endorses hate towards their Jewishness? But, if so, they were still assimilated by the actual apartheid government of the Caliphites and some other Arab governances.
>So why would they convert to an ideology endorses hate towards their Jewishness?
I don't know what you're talking about. Could you explain? The Quran specifically calls Jewish people (and Christians) "the people of an earlier revelation" or people of the book.
>"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
Does this sound like an endorsement of hate?
>"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
Or this?
I'm not saying MUSLIMS have always been nice to Jews. But few groups of people could say so. But ISLAM does not say to hate Jews or Christians.
>But, if so, they were still assimilated by the actual apartheid government of the Caliphites
It was apartheid? Please enlighten me.
Jews were a part of every day life, they generally were educated and you can read what they wrote today. They weren't banned from anything except the military. They paid a different tax, but not even really a higher one. It was just imposed on them separately because they otherwise didn't hold them responsible for following the Quran (which requires you to give money). And since the legal system is based on Islamic jurisprudence, they were allowed to keep their own legal system. Actually, that sort of system still exists today. Lebanon is many things but an apartheid state it is not.
Islamic Spain had a huge educated Jewish population and they pretty much all fled back to Islamic rule when the Christians were doing the reconquista and starting the Spanish inquisition to get rid of all the Muslims and Jews. Why would this happen if what you're saying is true?
How would you explain 'if a jew hides behind a tree..' quote from a hadith, AKA, one of the most fundamental things in Islam as it is a saying of their prophet, and almost always taught to children in Islamic countries. I may be wrong about the later caliphites, but there was still the pact of Umar, which had done quite the damage to the Jewish population, hence the Apartheid I've been talking about. I may be a little fatigued or feel a little ailment, so I may be wrong.
>AKA, the second most fundamental book in Islam
🤣. Okay. The ahadith are not one specific book. The books of them do exist. They're just people quoting people quoting people quoting Muhammad. Not even all schools of Islam place much importance on them and few consider them to be divine and no one considers them to be the word of God. And they disagree on which ones are important, which ones are true and which ones are likely lies. And there are commentaries with the Hadith that explains these thought processes and gives each Hadith a rating. It's like reading Perushim in Judaism. There is only one book in Islam whose authority is unquestioned and that is the Quran.
And I don't know which Hadith you're talking about.
Yeah, I got the terminology wrong, but I changed the comment. I would've guessed they'll be written somewhere like a central book or a collection of books, so I'm wrong on that behalf. I am getting quite tired and putting less effort into those responses, so I am sorry about that.
Someone takes your house because it used to belong to their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather. When you resist they kick you out by force. When you resist violently they throw you in jail. You kid is so angry he shoots the new persons son. How did this happen and who is the victim?
Israel came to place because Great Britain owned the land and decided that It'll be Israel.
Palestine and other arab nations didn't like that and started a war [1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War)
Israel won and kept their land and rightfully displaced the warmongering people into a place of their own.
Palestine keeps on kicking and pricking making peace not possible and forcing Israel to control them.
Palestine cries bloody murder and plays the victim card.
About the same time as the nakba, 750,000 Jews were fled/left Arab countries, often with bank accounts/houses seized. When Israel was founded, six Arab nations invaded, warning the Arabs living there to leave to avoid being slaughtered in the invasion. About 750,000 Arabs fled/left during this time.
1945 British Admin statistics say Jews only owned approximately 5.67% of the mandate’s total land area while the state owned about 46%. However, by 1948 Jewish ownership had increased to 6.6%.
At the end In the 1947 UN partition plan israel did get around 5% of the land. People complain about the border lines, but it was really a fair divide to everyone. In general the entire area was relatively open territory. There was enough space for 2 states.
But the Arabs wanted all the territory and started the 1948 war.
Fun fact, if your ancestors didn't interbreed at all you would have more ancestors from 2000 years ago than there were people on earth at the time, by a factor of 10^(11)
You do know that there are Palestinian Jews that lived in Palestine peacefully with Muslims and Christian’s right? The new “Jews” that are trying to take over Palestine are European descendants. Obviously you didn’t do enough research on this topic because this seems very one sided.
the majority as of late aren’t of European decent and there are dozens of massacres done but Muslims to Jewish Palestinians for decades before Israel. So you are the mislead one here. I think you both did the research that was convinient to you beliefs
There are 1.9 billion Muslims in the world. There are approximately 15.5 million jews in the world. I don't have specific statistics but for example even if 99 percent of Muslims are normal peaceful people who just want normal life and such, that still leaves 1 percent of Muslims who are angry jihadis - approximately 19 million people.
For social media and world news, jews are vastly outnumbered by Arabs with fancy marketing. Look at the net worth of the leaders of hamas .. the top 3 or 4 are all billionaires, because they pocket the aid money and donations instead of feeding their civilians.
There are 2 refugee organizations. one for the rest of the world, one only for Palestinians unwra. For normal refugees , refugee status ends once you get citizenship in a different country. for unrwa refugees it's handed down paternally regardless of citizenship.
and before any of you come at me, bibi is corrupt af too and we have been trying to get him out of office since before covid . one year we had 4 elections in a few months .
The numbers of muslims here is irrelevant, because it counts Muslims in Indonesia who have nothing to do with this war. It is just Israel vs. Palestine or Israel vs. countries of the middle east.
For social media it also doesn't matter how many people are Muslims, but who owns the media. Elon Musk is Pro-Israel, visited Israel, talked with Netanyahu, but didn't visit West Bank.
Yes, there are 2 refugee organizations, and there is also the UN resolution 194, that says Israel has to allow the refugees from the 1948 war to come back to their towns. Israel is denying them coming back to their villages. What kind of hypocricy is this? Blaming the refugee organization that only exists because Israel forced people out of their homes, who have a right to come back.
You don't seem to understand social media. Numbers matters much more.
Millions of refugees moved around the world after wars without that right, what makes palestinians so special?
Also What about all the jewish refugees? It was a fair trade.
And remind you it wasn't israel who started the 1948 war. Don't cry that you lost your house after you tried to take someone's else.
Israeli armed groups started the war before May 1948 with attacking Arab villages on territories that would make a Palestinians country according to UN partition plan 1947, It is called plan Dalet.
So they attacked villages outside of their future state and forced 300.000 Arabs to flee BEFORE Israel was founded.
Israel started the war and used it to steal even more land.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
"the manifestations of joy of the Jewish community were counterbalanced by protests by Arabs throughout the country[16] and after 1 December, the Arab Higher Committee enacted a general strike that lasted three days."
And in general the first arab attack on jewish towns was in 1920. The jewish village was destroyed completely.
We are talking about the main leaders: High Arab Commitee vs. Haganah&Irgun&Lechi, not some random mobs.
And with the partition plan it was at this moment clear how the borders look like. The israeli terrorists were the ones who attacked Arab villages OUTSIDE their future state first
So because you categorized palestinians as random mob you excuse them from any responsibility for their actions?
The arab leaders inside the territory were planning their violence attacks on jews just like Haganah&Irgun&Lechi were planning their defense after or before those attacks.
>The israeli terrorists were the ones who attacked Arab villages OUTSIDE their future state first
First of all I don't know if it's even true. If you can link the event please.
Secondly after arab attack jews (as wiki shows) I support jews going in any territory in retaliation. It's like blaming jewish organizations for attacking the Germans during ww2 on German ground. If you hit my child in your house I have the full right to go in, break you, and put you in jail.
Arabs had no reason attacking their innocent jewish neighbors. Random Jews weren't terrorists on massive scale, like we see palestinians today.
yeah, you're missing something. modern day israelis are largely european. they have no claim to live where someone else lives. they started every war. wtf is this post,, u sound simple
when you look at the power dynamics of the situation. Palestinians are currently displaced in the millions. 30 to 40, 000 deaths Whereas Israel has the big money and weapons coming in from their allies, 1 to 2000 deaths.
The Palestinians are also native to that land. The religion of Islam may have started elsewhere yes ..but clearly the people who were already living in Palestine adopted the religion of Islam. It does not mean they belong in Saudi Arabia....no more then a Indonesian Muslim belongs in Saudi Arabia.
Both people are native to that land. Jewish people and Palestinian people.
you can say "Palestine started it" but really they are the ones facing genocide at this point, not the Israelis. Israelis are not living in refugee camps by the millions.
>Israelis are not living in refugee camps by the millions
If you call where ever palestinians living a refugee camp why can't you say the same about israel?
I'm asking you. Stop looking for sources, use your own brain.
You know what refugee camp means, right? Why do you include gaza, Lebanon, west bank, jordan... in this definition but you don't include israel?
I can restate my previous comment. I have accessed a surplus of information about Palestinian refugee camps. What the living conditions are. Where they are. How many people are in them (millions).
I have yet to see any information about an Israeli refugee camp. Do they exist ? I have not heard any reports of them existing at this point.
I do not know about events thousands of kms from me if I do not have access to information...aka sources.
If anyone else reading this discussion has an answer, I appreciate it
What is 1+1=?
do you also need a source for that?
I'm asking you a very simple question here.
You relying on sources exclusively instead of your own logic and brain is not very healthy thinking process.
I will help you start. https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/camps/#:~:text=Refugee%20camps%20are%20temporary%20facilities,to%20war%2C%20persecution%20or%20violence.
This is the definition. Now the question is why do you include all the gsza, west.b,etc places in this definition and not places in israel?
Even if they aren't the native to "that land", It's THEIR land. Just imagine if native Americans gathered then attack on US and occupies most of it. Would you say the SAME thing??
Israel is a FAKE country it was established after the 2 world war because of "Balfour Declaration" by Gathering Jews of Europe and Building colonies for them in Palestine.
Then do you tell me that if your 10th grandfather was living in a city in Ghana and then He immigrated to another country, you and your cousins will occupy that city and kill as many as you can do; because you're the "NATIVE" and the world will sit back and watch as it does to Palestine now?!
But that’s against the point again. It’s a well known fact that Israel controls the water and electricity. This is a basic human right that’s Palestinians don’t have
That's a volatile choice to make. Considering the ppl backing the people you are 'goading' to genocide are essentially the world's superpowers.
That's an insanely high risk move to attempt considering they view you a terrorist organization. A VERY illogical step to make if you are Palestine/Hamas.
I would need more (and better) examples
When you say Palestine is goading Israel into their own genocide....why would a group of people want their own genocide? how would it ever benefit them to see the complete elimination of every friend cousin parent sibling or any other human they have ever known? Genocide...is unlike anything in this world. It's not just murder and death... it removes the very trace of your entire ancestry off the map. Its extinction of your people.
It does not matter who stated it or who is right or who did what at this point. Because the people in the political rooms that make the decisions regarding War are just a handful and the millions of civilians being killed injured and displaced are receiving the impact.
No more genocide. Immediate ceasefire. If it cannot be fought about with their words then they (war leaders) don't deserve to have power to represent your people. They still basic and crude in their evolution and have far to go before they deserve that power.
The outside countries need to step in because we are able to see this clearly. Israel Palestine need our support they are too involved to see clearly at this point.
No more weapons shipped in.
Immediate ceasefire.
Verbal discussions.
Treaties and agreements.
Love. Humanity. Connection. Equality.
True genocide would be be bad, but what is good is a lot of civilian casualties that they can parade as a "genocide". The population numbers will be repleted in a month or two. From the Islamic perspective the Gazan civilians dying is good - they are martyrs who go straight to heaven. Unlike westerners who wear religion as a fake identity symbol, they truly believe.
I appreciated your deep and well thought out response. I did disagree with calling it "just real estate". Connection to the land is one where the land is an extension of your very being.
It's why many Palestinians refuse to leave. They know once they leave they won't return and they would rather die with their land then leave it.
Through understanding Indigenous people in Canada, I have come to understand that land is often woven into the identity of the people that are living with and through it.
This goes beyond religion ..this is identity. What is Greek culture without their Mediterranean environment? What is my South Indian culture without our tropical environment? Every part of our identity is connected to our land. your body is built for the land...from the food it grows to the climate and many other reasons.
It matters.
Antisemitism, my friend. The West and Hamas have a common enemy in the Jews. The West isn't exactly fond of Muslims either, but they hate nobody more than Jews. Thus, the West stands with Palestine.
Of course it doesn’t make sense to you because you’re not from an oppressed minority. Arabs have dozens of countries they can do whatever they want in (well not the women of course lol) and so the west will always support Jews and their right to exist and self determination. This is a western value and the Middle East and Africa and many parts of Asia don’t have western values and this is why the west is advanced and powerful and why the Middle East relies on 15th century thinking and brutality.
It was Palestine to be begin with. Palestine was made up by Arafat in the 60s as a KGB agent and Russia trying to start a proxi war for their own benefit. Jordan is effectively Palestine if at all. The Jews took back their land and will by any means necessary resist Hamas attempts to genocide the Jews.
It’s Jewish land that was stolen by people that had no right to be there. The very idea of Palestine was made up by Arafat as agent of the KGB in the 60s. Palestine isn’t real and never was and never will be.
I think if I invite you as a guest into my home and you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day and tell me you're doing a me a kindness by kicking me into the doghouse, you're probably the problem.
Israel has a long, documented history of their intent. None of this information is private although Israel does try to revise history as they clearly never planned on the internet spreading mass information on that scale. Ie, look at their scholarships for students to edit Wikipedia articles and argue with people online. They have whole college courses you can find and textbooks specifically on how to edit Wikipedia courses. Immediately after October 7th, anytime you Googled Palestine only Wikipedia articles would pop up. Israel took out a superbowl add and didn't declare it as government funded. Etc.
Part of that marketing is painting Palestine as the aggressors. Oh, they're so mean for getting upset when we murdered grandma. But out grandma got murdered in the Holocaust so I deserve his house now. Etc.
Is there barbarism on both sides? Absolutely. But not on the scale Israel is demonstrating. They had a government run program to steal organs from Palestinians in the 90s. They had the Nakba of 1948. They have years of peaceful protests being shot at by the IDF. At some point, you have to fight back.
Israel created Hamas as well to ensure the marketing stuck. They managed to destroy the previous functioning governments and they deliberately funded Hamas to do it. (In addition to other efforts like the checkpoints and physically separating populations to limit the spread of information, controlling the law, taxes, police forces, military, etc).
Wouldn't you also get upset if thr people who used mass illegal immigration and had multiple genocidal campaigns kept trying to kill you after herding you into an open aired prison? I sure would be ready to defend myself and my family in any way possible if I were in the same position.
it became "your house" through violent conquest. "you" are not from jerusalem. "you" are from saudi arabia. so is your language, your culture, and your ethnicity. "you" stole the house and got mad when the original owners "stole" it back.
If the house was abandoned for 400 years and several people lived in it since you left and built other homes and families and you have no legal claim to it, isn't still your house?
Cuz the Native Americans in USA and Canada are asking.
They have been asking for their land back formally for years and actually have legal documents to back up their claims. You must support their rights as well, correct?
>you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day
Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence.
The people who now call themselves Palestinians never owned or ruled the area, yet claim it was somehow stolen from them and they want it back.
Israel was given permission to start a Jewish state by the country who ended up in possession of the area following WWI. The UN approved the idea. Both Jews and Arabs in the area were offered territories. Jews accepted and Palestinians refused because they thought they could just attack and take it by force.
About that, didn’t the British offer the Jews 50% of Palestinian land? That percentage started growing within a few years itself. Call that legal? Majority of the UN nations have unanimously called most of the Israeli settlements unlawful.
The British even asked them to stop stealing in the 1940's and the Jews committed the Nakba of 1948 as a response. They also spend a lot of money and time whitewashed their history since the Zionist who started this whole mess was literally a terrorist who shook hands with Nazis repeatedly for Israel's existence.
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Palestinians never had land for anyone to take. Palestine has never been an independent country. There never were a people called Palestinians until the Arabs in the area decided to start agitating for a homeland. They deserved a homeland, just like the Jews. The problem is they didn't want to share. They wanted the entire area to fall under Arab rule.
I don't want to talk about Israeli settlements when there is war going on in Gaza. Bringing that up is just a distraction technique.
The bottom line is the British military defeated the Ottoman empire and were appointed to administer the whole area. The League of Nations agreed to a Jewish state. Arabs were given control of the vast majority of the land in the British mandate, something like 94% of the land. That wasn't good enough for them. They wanted it all.
When the League of Nations turned over their power to the UN a 2ss was offered to both the Jewish people and the Arabs who had began calling themselves Palestinians. The Jews accepted and the Arabs refused. That decision put Jews in the driver's seat. You don't get to refuse to accept power and them try to second guess and control what the only party who stepped up to the plate does.
"***you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day***
***Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence*****.**"
Ok, we can say that You choose to move in but squeeze me in one corner and use any means to get me out.
"***Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that the Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence.***"
That is wrong, not correct statement
"***The people who now call themselves Palestinians never owned or ruled the area, but claim it was somehow stolen from them and they want it back."***
Also, the Jews never owned the area or God never said "I gave it to you", they conquered it when the Jews, belonged to the nomadic Shasu people.
"***Israel was given permission to start a Jewish state from the land who came into possession of the area after the First World War. U.N approved the idea. Both Jews and Arabs in the area were offered areas. Jews accepted and Palestinians refused because they thought they could only attack and take it by force."***
Yes, the Jews accepted because they got more land than enough so it was not a just share while the Palestinians got less land, among other.
and so on
I literally can't understand your rebuttal. Learn to use quote blocks. Highlight the quote you're responding to and click the three buttons at the bottom and look for the parentheses.
Their self declared intent is to keep Israelis safe from harm, and, yes, they have political agendas. Palestinians self declared intent is to eradicate and make Israelis leave. Defence against a hybrid warfare is breaking the enemies leadership structure both in military terms and legal terms.
In legal terms Palestinians unsuccessfully attempted to commit genocide. And Israelis to protect.
Now the post clearly states that Israelis were there first. Historical paradigm is that Israelis were there first. Archaeology paradigm is that it was the place that Israelis settled partly because it was -almost- empty space. They were banned from there by many conquerors over the centuries. But it's documented that they helped Arabs to conquer the place in order to be able to settle there, which they weren't allowed to do during Roman times. Some stealing occurred, but it happened the other way around.
Furthermore Palestinians have always been an ethnic minority there. They were sitting ottoman times and Roman times and British times. They started to have a problem partly because Israelis -being right to- weren't just conquerors but considered the place their own and partly because they hated Jews before and they bought the propaganda against them at the time.
In case you didn't know there is a difference between having your own state and being autonomous. Palestinians are just autonomous. They are essentially Israelis citizens. Also, their autonomous government is giving payment to anyone who kills Israelis. Israeli wrath is absolutely their fault. And try finding an ethnic minority which is allowed the same advantages Palestinians have. Autonomous government, separate funding, their own laws, elections, land under their rule. Start working outwards and tell me which ethnic minority has that.
Killing had gone way down in the past two years. That's a fact. Palestinians declared that it was part of their planning, to lul Israelis in a feeling of safety. That means that Israel is the aggressor in your book? Israel is -maybe- overreacting, but they aren't at fault!
If the one holding it, which was the British at the time in Israel's case, wants to give it back to them, then yes. If America wants to give it back it can. But in Israel's case, Britain didn't conquer Palestinians either. It wasn't Palestine before that either. Romans conquered Jews though so the last of the two to hold a state there was Israel. And for the record, Palestinians were almost half a million after WW2 there. Considering the mixed population there is now closer to 15 million they weren't exactly pushed. There are several bigger ethic minorities without a state of their own even now.
The reason they are now much more is political, and it is by design. Average age in Gaza strip is 17,4. They are doing it to push Israel out by force.
We are part of the commonwealth. Also, Britain has asked Israel to give land back repeatedly. That's why Israel retaliated with the Nakba of 1948.
You're going to give up your home first if someone else has claim to the land, right?
I don't know, ask the Palestinians. But if they gave the natives their land back and then asked them to part with it they'd have a problem too. They actually had in several cases in the recent past.
You fail to realize that Israel had the claim to the land, history says so. Politics disagree partly, and fairly recently in historical terms.
Palestinians have legal documents for their homes. So do Native Americans. Can you point out which Israeli settler has direct legal claim to specific homes and lands?
Legal documents from who? Ottomans? British? As I understand it they are autonomous, not independent. The land you are referring to is part of the state of Israel, which disagrees. I lost a home to a train track 10 years ago and got a fraction of its worth back. Part of what's wrong with this world is thinking you can change the laws by force. A law you don't like isn't a trigger. Several war crimes and an attack by an irregular force is. What happens is what experience and logic predicted.
Every country has a right to break an enemy which attacked first. When Hamas said that the dive in the body count was part of their plan to make Israel feel safe and make it possible for them to do greater damage to population behind the border you think they didn't attack first? What you see is a standard procedure in military terms.
Ps. You also see the bonus tactic of Palestine abusing your morals and using your character to pressure others, as this was part of their plan too. They have in the past
Just because the prior democracy didn't perfectly align with Western standards doesn't mean it wasn't a function political system. I think that's why you're getting confused and assuming peopme whove lived there for multiple generations to Roman times have less claim than non-semitic jews using illegal mass immigration and genocide to establish a majority.
Because only an idiot would believe another country with different political practices, beliefs, religions and social norms isn't a functioning country because they didn't adapt Western norms the moment they were being violently enforced on the existing inhabitants of said land. Hope this helps!
Killing,though a correct term in terms in language, shows intent. Targeting and killing civilians is both illegal and is considered murder. Legally, though, it isn't the correct term. Targeting an enemy combatant hiding amongst civilians is legal and the civilians are considered collateral damage. Tolerating a high collateral damage is what they are doing and it's both legally and in terms of language correct. It's what they are doing. And they are working under the ethical and realistic assumption that both the enemy combatants are using civilians and a certain number of civilians tolerate and have knowledge of the combatants amongst them, if not straight up helping them that way.
Innocents isn't a correct term either. They are non combatants, sure, but collaborating and hiding Hamas, taking directions from Hamas officials, and making Israel's job harder makes them not innocent in a great number of instances. If you are implying women and children, which many people do by this term, women are able to help Hamas, and have in certain cases. The average age in Gaza is 17,4, the average age of a Hamas fighter, especially the low level combatants, is considered to be 1-2 years younger than that, which is considered a death of a child in west and the news, but not under the circumstances.
You are a victim of Hamas plan to weaponize your sympathy. They have increased both on west bank and Gaza almost tenfold in 70 years and Gaza government has asked for funding specifically for population growth for this exact purpose.
That's why I made an argument on ethics. Civilians protecting military or civilians knowingly standing near combatants gives them an ethical responsibility. We would all prefer no killing takes place. But Palestinians saying that killing from both sides went down because they were trying to make Israel feel safe and strike at the right time and do bigger damage makes them the aggressors. And the ones starting the bloodshed. What happens now is a military using the standard tactic on defending against a hybrid threat. Read the whole comment before answering please.
if your concern was ethics then you wouldn't focus so much on legality. which is ironic, because you believe that those victims who are innocent &/or children cannot be claimed to be because of their circumstances.... you basically believe almost no one is innocent & the children cant be considered such.... seems dehumanizing to me. there are definitely innocent people there, & the fact of the matter is that israel has been engaging in aggressive land-stealing behavior consistently for the past +75 years. also those 2 sentences in the middle of your last paragraph didn't really make sense
Well me including an ethics argument isn't a sign I am not actively considering the ethics. What I said you should at the very least try to counter before you do anything else. I didn't say all of them knew but collateral is an ethical burden on the ones that started the bloodshed. It isn't some kind of response they hadn't considered. And they chose to weaponize even the peaceful days as part of their plan.
I included the legality of the Israeli actions because if you are correct ethically to respond with violence and you haven't broken a war law while the other side has admitted to having done that when talking about not releasing the military prisoners but the civilians only you are on the clear. That includes blood but there is justified violence.
Compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. The Jews there also "attacked first", but it was justified. The October seven attacks were monstrous and massacred way too many civilians, but would Gaza a be justified in attacking Israeli military? Many would say yes.
Comparing the rape, murder and torture of innocent people to the Warsaw Uprising is disgusting. In the case of the Warsaw Uprising, the Jews were responding to those crimes, not committing them. You are justifying Hamas burning people alive and raping women. That's wild.
Not at all, I said they were justified in attacking Israeli military.
fine, attacking israeli military is justified, also, attacking palestinian military is justified. and if by any chance, the palestinians chose to use their own people as human shield.. its their problem right? because from the israeli side, its justified.
Do you just shoot the hostages when a guy takes a few because they're in the way? No, you don't. Also, the history behind October 7 goes back to the continuous displacement and discrimination of Palestinians, which is why rebellion is justified. Unfortunately, that rebellion resorts to terrorism.
Also, the history behind the continuous displacement and discrimination of Palestinians goes back to their foolish decision to try and eradicate the jews instead of making peace AND A COUNTRY FOR THEMSELVES, which is why what they got is justified. unfortunately, the people in this earth are clueless to this fact.
They weren't there originally and when you kill 3000 to 1 person you can't keep playing the victim complex. Any country with an appartide system and segregation dosnt deserve to exist.
Ok, so because they didn't accept their displacement, it's justified to lock them into Gaza, discriminate against them in the west bank and bomb them? I don't think that makes sense.
well according to you it is since i literally just copied ur own logic and replaced the jews with palestinians :/
Oppressors and oppressed are not the same. Jews sin the Warsaw Ghetto were justified in shooting German policemen, German police was not justified in shooting Jews. Don't you agree?
cant recall a single jew there that tried to burn children alive or rape girls, can you? see the difference? even at the hardest times the jewish community had to go through, which is by far worse then those "poor" palestinians are going through, we were still not even close to the barbarism of the palestinians. had the palestinians only attacked soldiers, MAYBE u had any sense in that logic (u wouldnt, but who cares) each and every time i use ur own logic to trip you, when will u call it a day and realize ur whole way of thinking is just wrong lol
I am an athiest but I will quote the bible Fun fact: Bible was before Islam was created, other fun fact Judism started in Egypt so should they go to Egypt if you are using ancestory card. Last fun fact, Palestinian are Semite same as Jewish people so they come from the same region.
Many pin the current situation on Britain but I’d say Jordan and Egypt who annexed Palestinian territory and subjugated them, are the modern architects. The Arab state barred Palestinians from becoming citizens, owning property and forcing them in to refugee camp that are generations older then the ones in Gaza. And this is when Palestinians sought asylum there.
Arabs have ethically cleansed kurds for decades .. same with turks and iranians they play the genocide card against the jews because it suits their narrative
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That's the dumbest thing I've heard, you aware of the fact that most news outlets bias towards the Palestinians? Also anything that coming out of Gaza have 0 creditability which is their primary source.
Incorrect, terms like "horrific" and "slaughter" are disproportionately used to describe Israeli deaths, but not Palestinian deaths https://preview.redd.it/xkshjbths9oc1.png?width=1090&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d48d0894dc59584029b2aa5d7876a2eefb2bbefd The numbers given by Gaza have historically been relative with Israel's in the past, they list identities of the victims, not to mention the [Lancet](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext) believes they're accurate
But everything coming out of israel is without a doubt the truth?
Modern West Asians whether Jewish, palestinian, druze or Christian can trace DNA back before the Canaanites. Biblically it's Judean tribes from Ur that came to invade and commit genocide, archaeologically we know this is a myth as there largely the same people and history can teach us that although Jewish peoples largely fled Hadrian, many who remained were Jewish Messianic Christians who helped start the early church and were later romanised and arabised in the same way that caananites were largely Israelised. Being a levantine state means that it's a very mixed placed but indigenous West Asians have provable heritage from before 10th century BCE lol.
Pro Palestinians shout louder. They think that the Palestinians are the underdog while in fact they have support from all the countries that surrounds Israel. They are being fed up with lies - the media is twisting what's happening plus the palestinians are very good with directing fake videos. They believe antisemitic movements because they impersonating as human rights advocates. They don't know the truth. They are following the herd. I There's a large number of Muslims that are anti - Israel and some of them are investing in this narrative, At the end - Israel tries to protect itself, prosper and be peaceful while its enemies are trying to destroy it (You can easily look for how many wars Israel had and all began by the enemies) and they spread lies and exaggerate and showing one side and it has been assimilated.
Well I am a pro palestinian and I consider myself as a rational person who is not affraid of questionning my opinion and even completly change my mind if it happens that I am wrong. You are saying that I am only brainwashed because I have been looking to propaganda/fake videos ans lies. I am welling to sit still, requestion myself. The question is are you willing to do the same. Are you willing to ask yourself these questions : - what if I am all wrong about it ? - what if I am the one who has been brainwashed ? - what if I am the one who is biased ? - what if I am the one who has been lied to ? - what evidence I have been looking at ? - what if the truth is elsewhere I was looking ? See all of us don't sit still and genuinely ask ourselves these questions. We immediatly make assumptions about others, and we all live in this bubble of believing that we are the good people and others are the bad people. I hope we can have a conversation in witch we both seek THE TRUTH and nothing else but the truth. Peace to you
When one side has openly made their goals about their hate towards Jews known for decades, have started every war with the Jews and then commit one of the worse massacres ever I find it hard to believe you think you're in the right. HAMAS have already denied a ceasefire proposal. It doesn't seem like the Palestinian Gazan side is open to peace or has ever been.
Well I believe you must be a good person, but unfortunatly you are wrong about everything you just mentionned. Sometimes we can just be wrong about something. It happens and it's totally okey to set still and rethink and doubt everything. You know why ? Because as long as we consider ourselves good and honnest people we must seek the truth even if this truth goes against what we always used to believe. If you want to have a conversation about it, I am willing to.
I understand what you're saying and you are correct. But you're not taking your own advice here. HAMAS aren't freedom fighters. They want power and money. The leaders live in a 5 star hotel in Qatar and are worth billions for a reason. Go and read up the HAMAS charter, they are literally built on the idea of destroying Israel and the Jews.
Look at this : it's in the West bank where there is no hamas. https://youtu.be/JBkNDNj05XA?si=j64Fxwp23g0QhAQd The probleme most israelis fail to see is what happens to the palestinians on regular basis for years now. They only see oct 7th but forget all the history before
saying there is no hamas in the west bank proves ur ignorant on the matter. the only reason why there isnt election in the west bank is because hamas wouldve win. please educate urself before commenting about the subject onlnie. thanks.
It depends on what you mean by educating myself. Do you mean buying israeli governement's propaganda ?
no, again ur wrong. by educating yourself i mean EDUCATE urself about hamas in the west bank, because only fools with no knowledge on this matter will think that there are "no hamas" there. and because u sound like a guy who will say bs to everything that is israeli related, all u have to do is listen to hamas, they do as much as tell u themselves when their terrorists WITHIN the west bank died commiting terror acts lol. so YES, there are ALOT of "hamas" in the west bank, which is pretty obvious to literally everyone who took 5mins and studied about the situation properly.
Alright fine. I'll educate myself about them no problem. But would you do the same ? Would you educate yourself on your governement terrorists ?
Did I say the west bank isn't raided? The lions den and some Hamas wings still operate there. They still build tunnels into Israel and keep guns in mosques. That's not the same as being under siege and getting mk84 bombs dropped on you lol Gaza. Do you Hamas sympathisers not understand anything about the war?
And this : It's sexual harrassment https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/ZWS9lSK4K9
where exactly is the harrassment in here? because he said "babe" at the end to the camera when the girl wasnt even there? oh wow...
People around soldiers are supposed to feel secure not scared and the girls look clairly terrified. The way these soldiers act so narcisstic and abusive. I mean look at the way they talk to these girls and ON CAMERA. Imagine what they do where there is no camera. Now if you tell me that you would be totally fine letting your 15 years old girl with these monsters than I don't have anything to say
I mean if you are a rapiest yourself then you won't be able to see the harassment that is clair on the video. You didn't see how they are intimidating these little girls ?? They way they talk about them ON CAMERA ? You don't say Babe to a 15 years old while you are doing service..that's power abuse and harassment. I Wonder of your daughter went to exact same traitement how would you react. It's mind blowing that israelis deny everything even if it's ON TAPE
And this is evidence of the entire IDF acting like this? Do you understand that 1 isn't a good sample size ever?
https://youtu.be/suGml5xY4wo?si=2GukwM93H0BgHXUz Does it also look like just an incident ?
Do you really believe there is only 1 exemple ? There are thousands and thousands of photages and proofs and reports from different institutions. But of course it makes you sleep well at night by just believing that this all conflict is about hamas. Look finding out the truth about what your country does as atrocities won't make you less patriote. The problem with you israelis is that you don't see the big picture which is absolutly heart breaking. You simply think that the world hate the jews and sympathize with hamas. The truth is that the world sees the genocide and the atrocities that your extremist governement do and they lie to you and even to the entire world. I am nicely giving an advice to question everything.
Watch this 3min clip : you will witness yourself war crimes and pur evil of your beloved israhell. Open your eyes you are blindly supporting evil. https://youtu.be/DhVV2_mub84?si=QmGtITrZqhHMwvXa
Calling Israel evil because of a couple incidents is very moronic. Have you seen the parts where Israel is opening humanitarian corridors? Or where they are evacuating people before striking targets? Or the part where Israel is roof knocking and throwing leaflets out of planes? I know it's hard to look at both sides when you're brainwashed but none of this would be happening if your freedom fighters didn't kill Israeli civilians. Don't play victim now.
The way you are portraying what I just sent you as " incidents " and not intent of brutal and evil murders tells me a lot about yourself. What I showed you is terrifying and horrible and inhumain but you caracterize it as just "incidents" . Seems that you don't have much empathy for humans who suffer brutally.
Calm down you seem so angry and not willing to question yourself. Look I am telling you lets both accept that we are brainwashed ( me and you together ) and lets find out the truth. What I am saying is that we both throw at each other the same argument : you are brainwashed and you don't see both sides. But humans always fail to question themselves. Come on ask yourself what if you are wrong. Are you willing to do it ?
Well the problem with you israelis is that you quickly jump into conclusions and into thinking that the world hate the jews which is very wrong. What you fail to understand is that you live in a bubble of believing that israel is a very normal country that was living in peace and who never intended to harm anyone and suddly the bad arabs who hate the jews because of islam wanted to attack. This the narrative that is being told in mainstream media and in your schools all the time and you fall for it unfortunatly. The truth is israel isn't a normal country, it's not like it's norway that never harmed anyone and all of a sudden it got attacked. You need to understand why that attack happened ( that I don't justify because I don't tolerate the killing of any innocent life, hopefully you will understand). Here is the series of bad and evil intent that israel has been doing for years : 1. Settlments : they littraly attack innocent people in their homes, throw them out of their homes under the claim that the land belongs to israelis because it belonged to the jews from 3000 years ago. Do you tolerate this ? It happened to millions of palestinians that were displaced from their villages, killed and so on and its still happening until TODAY but you won't want to see it because you believe blindly that israel are the good guys and palestinians are the bad guys. 2. Those gazans that are 2.2 millions were living under a blocage, they were controled by israel and not allowing them to have an economy, airports water and electricity. Is this normal ? 3. Israel put CHILDREN in jail and not any jail but in military jail without even charges. Only assumptions that are in general false. But if you question any israeli they will simply tell you that these aren't children or they are terrorists children ( do you still see the trick or not ? Just call Those you want to kill and emprison terrorists and you are allowed to do whatever you want) 4. Lets talk now about oct 7th. How come that israeli one of the countries who has the greated intelligence and technology ever was attacked from the MOST PROTECTED area and who let all that happen for 6 LONG HOURS without doing anything. You don't find this suspicious ? well let me tell you my theory ( and you can laugh about it or call it conspirancy you are free ). Oct 7th happened yes but most of the claims were wrong. First of all israel wants to make you believe that hamas is supported by Iran. However hamas is supported by natanyaho himself. It's the hoax you still fail to understand. Israel needs an oct 7th to find a justified way to end the lifes of 2.2 million people in gaza because israel wants to OCCUPY gaza. That's the truth you will never want to see because you refuse to see the big picture and all of the economical interests that israel has in controling and taking the land of gaza. ( you can look it up ). Hamas attacked yes and I condemn it severly but the difference between me and you is that I see who made hamas and who has an interest into letting hamas survive : it's natanyaho and you can still find him saying that he supports hamas. There is a hoax that most israelis fall for which is that israel do all the harm to innocent lifes ( settlments, emprisonment, murders ...) but it's enough to call it terrorism and you guys believe it. That's the same hoax used by the nazis themselves. They made the germans believe that the jews were a threat and that was justified to mass murder them. You see now what I am saying ? What you should learn from history isn't that the holocauste happened but how millions of german were brainwashed into thinking that is morally right to genocide the jews. It's the same think that is happening right now with the palestinians. Unfortunatly another genocide is happening in front of our eyes and we justify it. What I hope is that israel one day will be runned by good people and not corrupted extremists and will give the palestinians the same rights as israelis.
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It's great that you have this mindset :)
I recommend you watch the film Tantura. It’s a documentary about war crimes, the coverup decades later and the persecution of a student who uncovered them. It is an Israeli film. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16378034/
Palestinians need to invest more in quality and not quantity in order to stop being the victim, in this world you are either strong and conquer or weak and get conqueres. Like imagine palestinians dropping a 900kg on neteyahu's house as he sleeps in cesseria, his house is a legit target right? since israel does that to palestinians. Or if they rpg drop from a drone on galant during a press conference killing him instantly with several journalists, israeli journalists are legit targets as well since they work for and to the idf right? palestinians are a victim because they have been colonized and opressed for decades and there is no denying that, my dad's grandpa and his age group all should of mobolized in 1918 to overthrow the brtish colonial regime and should of obtained better weapons before the 1936 uprising to make sure they force britian out of palestine. Had hamas invested in missiles that can knock out any israeli jet, drone, warship and iron dome obviously israel would be forced to sign a peace treaty within hours of oct 7 or risk returning the land to the palestinians. It wasnt smart to attack without having such weapons.
Hamas doesnt invest in missiles. They aren't a military. They are a terrorist organisation who are an Iranian proxy and are known to dig up water pipes to build their rockets. Perhaps be open to peace and conversation like their west bank counterparts and don't attack Israel even if you had such technology!
Their west bank counterparts have became colonial colaberators that cant move or travel without an israeli permit. Even Abbas needs an israeli permit to travel anywhere. If you think palestinians will stand living that way you are wrong. palestinians have rights and legit claims and wont perish away like native americans, not now not in 200 years. Israel bare no rights - only power which is why regardless of what palestinians do and how much terraforming zionists do, israel wont last as an ultra racist ethno state for jews that dont even believe god exists and god believing jews that believe israel has no right to exist before the mesiah returns. and if you claim well look what hamas got palestinians in gaza - destruction and genocide, thats because they gave pretext for the americans to do so through their terror proxies - israel.
The west bank has a functioning economy with industry and manufacturing, they can move in and out of Israel with a permit, Gazans cannot even leave Gaza, they aren't being bombed etc. What else do you want me to tell you? Palestinians have legit claims to what? Palestine was created by the Romans after exiling the Jews. You have no claim on anything. Im not going to argue with you about what a god nobody has ever seen says about Israel. The truth is Israel has won 6 wars against the Arabs. That alone gives it the right to exist. You claim genocide but I've never heard of a genocide that has humanitarian corridors and evacuated people before striking buildings. You are repeating Instagram and twitter brainrot without knowing anything yourself.
I dont use twitter or instagram and as far as i know you kinda prove my point - palestinians need to modernize their army or not use violence. We know through yusephus that not all jews were exiled, some were allowed to live with permits, like the pa - those were jewish collaberators that didnt join the first revolt. Incases like yodfat roman soldiers didnt allow jews for quite a while to bury the bodies of murdered jews, they let them decompose. Some cities werent touched by the roman empire and tax revenue continued to be generated after the revolt - indicating that not all jews were expelled. I cant dox myself but lets say i am an actual scholar in the subject, just 3 words and it would be extremely easy to dox me since.. yea anyway. the revolt failed at the end, the jewish armies failed to unite and band together - yusephus claims he spent 6 months prepating the galil, and was betrayed at the end and instead of suiciding he ended up surrendering and living subjecated as a subordinate... and more over the revolt failed because the jewish armies didnt train or modernize themselves and stood no chance against the vastly superior roman army. so by your logic palestinians will only get their right to exist after defeating the us backed zionist forces in war after war - which is exactly proving my point. the jewish rebels knew the romans would never change their way and give them freedom, so do the palestinians. And as for never seeing a genocide with human corridors before, uhmm yea you actually did - the gassing didnt start in 33 or 39, germans werent happy jews werent dying fast enough after moving through corridors to concentration camps, famine and disease doesnt kill humans fast enough. and as for the aid - i did the math in another post - its 0.0017% of required aid - including aid that fell into sewage, ocean, ruins and israeli settlement so the number is a lot less. my point and you proved it - never attack a stronger opponent without proper weapons. i've seen countless f15 fly off from ramat david loaded with bombs and coming back empty only to reload. So ye, israelis can pull a golda and pretend palestinians forced em to do this genocide, that doesnt matter palestinians should of never attacked without having anti warplanes weapons.. just like the jews should of never attacked without having strong anti-seige weapons.
Palestinians should invest in supporting Israel and join Israel instead of investing in terrorism. And for the love of god stop being a refugee country, they get 2M+$ every month and they invest almost all of it in terrorism. At the end of the day Israel is the ONLY country that want to take care of them.
Join israel in what? being second class citizens like us? we gave up, they didnt
tf 2nd class citizens you talking about? 🤣 life of Palestinians or Muslims in Israel is far way better than other Muslim Countries. Come here in Israel to see it for yourself.
Oh u remind me of that american actor that filmed himself in mahane yehoda market in jerusalem screaming there is no apartheid here!.. well i am an arab 48 which means i am an israeli.. and being second class citizen isnt something i made up, its the reality of the ethnic hirarchy in israel. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-02-25/ty-article-opinion/.premium/reminder-in-israel-arabs-are-still-second-class-citizens/0000018d-dc40-d03b-a7cd-ffd854b70000 better than most muslin countries? not even close, but as it stands something depend on your status and family connections. but thats all going to shit soon once ben gvir becomes the next pm. can i become a pm if i am more holy and zionist than yousef hadad? no. can i become a ceo of the railway company? no. can i become a pilot that roasts babies with 900kg bombs? no because thats positions set for jews only. we as arabs wont accept that ever.
https://youtu.be/-8wkLV-mhnY?si=Yh6n55Gv08JHXIg- https://youtu.be/uCZTWmbPrKc?si=kd9Rkj409NIpfR-b 🤣😂😂😂🤣
Ye really funny your post has nothing to do with what i wrote. Deflect discussion - i am already an israeli citizen. Dont think for a second i support hamas or violence. You can pretend hamas is isis rawr evil (hint isis in egypt executed hamas members and affiliates), but oct 7 didnt happen just cuz muslims are evil or palestinians bad. give em respect and a state and there wont be a need to resist. oslo alreadt took us out of the equation. without a doubt the dumbest thing they did was go into kibbutzim and attack civilians, cuz they assumed israeli pilots wont bomb an israeli house if he knew his puppy or pet was inside it, wrong to ever go there morally and militarly. and even dumber was kidnapping palestinians israelis, cuz thats something useless to bargain with in the first place, remember hisham? or avira? kidnapped for more than 8 years no swap or exchange now both prob dead. ye and asking palestinian ambassador of fatah that is in us payroll about our hostages wont help, gotta pay hamas ye ur post is gr8 https://haiton11.co.il/falcon-yield-2/?utm_source=Taboola&utm_term=ynet-articlesmobile_1183451&utm_content=3916500643&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=32833402&MPC_1=Taboola&MPC_2=32833402&MPC_3=3916500643&MPC_4=ynet-articlesmobile_1183451&MPC_5=GiBa7uazh7uE8MiWW9WnCppfHS8oIm8kEpX09jFx2NCRTSCTsE8oq8jF65e0vsGTAQ#tblciGiBa7uazh7uE8MiWW9WnCppfHS8oIm8kEpX09jFx2NCRTSCTsE8oq8jF65e0vsGTAQ go buy a realeatate in dubai, advert for israelis
Splosh Splash your opinion is trash 🤣 tell to your fellow Hamas to get the fuck out of the tunnels and Dubai and meet the IDF face to face. Muslims are really stupid in any angle 🤡 Long Live IDF! 🇮🇱 erase these Hamas from the world map including their childrens 🤣
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Ask any Arab Israeli and they will call BS on the whole Israel treats Arabs as second class citizens belief
Whos us? Palestinians? Arabs? Russians? Ukrainians? Jews? all of the others? None is a second class citizen in Israel.
Kind of, it ended normalisation talks and forced the Sauds to announce they won't ramp up relations with Israel until atleast a solution is found regarding the occupation.
Yithzak Rabin the prime minister of Israel was killed by his own people because he signed a two state solution
What's your point? He is a murderer and still in Jail. Israel dedicates a day every year in his honor. people that hadn't know him personally still cry about what happened. You and your people won't demonize my people
One person
One of the main difference between Israel and the Palestinians is that Palestinians rule is 100% anti Israel while in the Israeli government there are people who want peace and extremists as well like there should be in a democratic government that represents the people. Yes there were a lot of Israelis back then against 2 state solution but there were more people that wanted it. While gaza rule is basically 100% let's kill all of them
>Israeli governments wants peace >Kills the highest leader after signing a two state solution Kek
>And since then everytime there was a war, the Palestinians started it. >Even when every single time Israelites offered peace - even by giving back the captured Gaza at one point. First of all, this is a false statement. https://www.palquest.org/en/highlight/161/1956-war#:\~:text=On%2026%20July%201956%2C%20Nasser,on%20drawing%20up%20battle%20plans. "On 26 July 1956, Nasser announced Egypt's nationalization of the Suez Canal and closed the canal to Israeli shipping. France and Israel began planning for war against Egypt, and by the end of September the two began to collaborate on drawing up battle plans. Both hoped to involve the British, and a secret meeting held between 22 and 24 October in Sèvres, France, concretized the joint Israeli-French-British political and military plans to overthrow the Nasser regime. Israel was to invade the Sinai, after which Britain and France would intervene and force the two sides to withdraw from the Canal Zone on the pretense of bringing the hostilities to a halt. On 29 October, the Protocol of Sèvres was put into action: Israeli forces occupied the Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal, after which Britain and France bombed Cairo and landed troops at the northern end of the canal." >Palestinians voted for Hamas. There were a lot of things that influenced the 2006-2005 elcetions. First of all, back then Hamas was succesfully trying to moderate its position. People were definitely not voting for a terrorist organizitation. Fatah, the main opposition, that had been in power before the elections, was hugely unpopular and people wanted to see a change. There weren't a lot of options. A lot of people were incredibly resentful, people who lost loved ones to the IDF, people who got displaced from their own homes just so some settlers can move in... it's really not that hard to see why Hamas won. >Why can't they just co-exist and make peace? >What is it that I'm missing? The context in which all this has been happening. Israel's expansionist ambitions and its backers geo-political interests. The cruelty Israel has been perpatrating against Palestinianas for such a long time now. The fact that doesn't matter how cruel and murderous Israeli meassures were, its backers (the West) kept supporting it with weapons. You are missing a huge injustice against humanity.
The HAMAS charter in 1988 literally said their goal was to eradicate Jews and start a holy war with them. Do people enjoy being confidently wrong? The only reason HAMAS was voted for is because they were more extreme than the previous, now Fatah, government.
Do you realize that stopping trade is basically a declaration of war? There's a reason why the Houthis were attacked by a coalition of countries for trying to disrupt trade routes. Hamas has always had, in it's charter, the eradication of all jews as one of it's main goals. Please, do tell how do you define 'moderate it's position'. The context is pretty simple - they were offered a country, they refused, some stayed peacefully and got citizenship (israeli arabs) and other revolted violently and didn't (gaza/west bank palestinians). Afterwards, they were offered peace/lands multiple times, but kept revolting violently and targeting civilian population regularly, at which points defense measures were erected ('cruel and murderous', apparantly), which have been proven to be very effective at causing less people to die. Mate, you are the one missing a huge injustice against humanity, and in doing so, you are supporting the extremists who make the life of the palestinian people so hard - instead of just co-existing in peace.
Jews just leave or find a way to survive, like when they were kicked out of every Arab country. Palestinians are professional victims and anti-Semites. I live in Canada and they are attacking Jewish people and organizations daily.
i have many relatives in canda and they arent anti semetic nor attacking anyone.
The left side with Palestine because israel is seen as an imperial force backed by global imperialist powers.
dont try to find logic in pro terrorists and pro rapists supporters. any other country will erase already gaza from this earth but israel drags on the war because it is not allowed to bomb gaza
Both have been on the land for a long time and have roots the problem is that neither group will admit that the other group has been there for a long time. It is always a competition of who’s been there the longest. We cannot deny the ties the Jewish people have to the land, many pro palestinians think all jews are white, forgetting middle eastern and African Jews, anyways them thinking this benefits their corrupt harmful ideology. We also can’t deny that Palestinians have been on the land for a very long time as well, and have been facing mass punishment for extremist groups. Also there are Gazans against Hamas but they will be killed if they speak up against them I would look up Moumen Al Natour.
Disagree that both sides don’t acknowledge each other. The upteenth efforts for peace always had one issue : rejectionism. Rejection of the Palestinian leadership to acknowledge the Jewish homeland or its people. Was any deal perfect/ prob not but at some point for the betterment of moving forward and giving your own people a chance to thrive you take it and move on and build something other than terror and hostility. The rejectionism has been a key point in the fundamentals of this war, previous wars and decades to centuries of Jews not being accepted by any society.
But I do agree with what you’re saying
Well we can see both sides not acknowledging each other on very pro Israeli sides they say Palestinians should leave and on very Pro Palestinian sides they say the Israelis should leave. Of course there are people who acknowledge each other, but in terms of government and extremist groups it’s a deadly competition
And when I say competition I speak about corrupt governments and extremist t groups not the people, to them it’s like a competition
This guy gets it
Exactly what I was thinking
Both Jews and Palestinians have indigenous ties to the land. They both deserve a state they feel safe in and have dignity in. Palestinians deserve reparations for land that they lost, and Israelis deserve to be left alone like they’ve always wanted. Israel is not an infallible country, there are problems with racism and sexism- but that is the case in literally every place on the planet. Anyone who tries to say it doesn’t have those problems is selling you propaganda and anyone who says it deserves to be wiped off the map for those problems is doing the same thing.
>And since then everytime there was a war, the Palestinians started it. Not so much... And, let's look a little further back... at a time, Egypt referred to the region as Peleset, we would know it as Canaan... It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims. Then, in 1945, seeds planted in 1890s or earlier grew, when the foreign zionist terrorist militias, menachem begins likud/irgun, the lehi, and haganah, launched "Plan Aleph", the start of their war against Palestine. So, again, in 1945 Palestinians became victims. In 1956 iirc, israel invaded Gaza and Egypt. Again, Palestinians became victims. In 1967, again, israel launched another invasion of Gaza and egypt. Again, Palestinians became victims. israel's invaded Gaza several times, again, Palestinians become victims. But, generally, when violent european terrorists stole their country is kind of the headline answer. Zionists raped and slaughtered native Palestinians, they rape and slaughter native Palestinians today. If you wonder why the Palestinian Authority is less supported, it's because it was basically created by israel and the US to be losers, as a collaborator government, to basically betray their people for the benefit of israel and the US. So, the Palestinian Authority basically never delivers the Palestinian people anything they really want because, as a creation of, a creature of israel and the US, it doesn't serve the Palestinian people, it mostly serves israel and the US. So naturally, it never really has much support. The irony being how israel supported from the beginning to today, Hamas, for the specific purpose of undermining peace and undermining the Palestinian Authority. israel has always wanted Palestine to be weak, and encouraged infighting among Palestinians. >Why can't they just co-exist and make peace? Let's say the British come to India... India is rich in spices, it also has a large population, Britain wants both these things, Indias Spices, and it's labor, and also Indian land... So Britain takes it. The British are cruel to Indians, they kill Indians, they steal from Indians, they rob Indians of their land... Why can't the Indians just co-exist and make peace with the British? Foreign zionists come to Palestine... These foreign zionists come to learn a new invented language, new hebrew, one they're creating at the same time they're learning it for the first time. They take native Palestinian land, through land fraud, through the tower and stockade movement, through violent ethnic cleansing... They were violent crusaders there to create a Jewish nation in Palestine against the wishes of the native Palestinians. You can see yourself, many eagerly will compare themselves to the colonial powers conquering the Americas, displacing the native population to create a european nation on foreign soil through violence against the will of the native population. How can anyone see zionism/israel as innocent?
There's so much revisionism and pop history in this message... Starting with here: > It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims. And "Hebrew tribe" came from where? And the fact that modern Palestinians relate as much to Turkey or Syria or Iran doesn't bother you? > the foreign zionist terrorist militias Sure. Here's Haganah: > Formed out of previous existing militias, Haganah's original purpose was to defend Jewish settlements against Arab attacks; this was the case during the 1920 Nebi Musa riots, the 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Palestine riots, the 1936 Jaffa riots, and the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, among others. I won't even continue. My question is how can one be so full of you know what?
> And "Hebrew tribe" came from where? And the fact that modern Palestinians relate as much to Turkey or Syria or Iran doesn't bother you? Babylonia? Modern Iraq? I believe that's the historical consensus. Yes, haganah were foreign zionist terrorists.
> Modern archaeology suggests that the **Israelites branched out from the Canaanites** through the development of Yahwism, a distinct monolatristic—and later monotheistic—religion centred on the national god Yahweh As to your judgements, you can live them to yourself, "consensus".
I think that's talking about Canaanite influences that were adopted by the jewish religion, so I don't know what point you're trying to make.
Then you think wrong: > The researchers also compared the ancient DNA with that of modern populations and found that most Arab and Jewish groups in the region owe more than half of their DNA to Canaanites and other peoples who inhabited the ancient Near East—an area encompassing much of the modern Levant, Caucasus, and Iran. and here's what you wrote: > we would know it as Canaan... It was invaded and conquered... By the Hebrew tribe... And so, native Palestinians, Canaanites, became victims. See the problem?
Again, showing genetic similarities doesn't disprove the external invasion history... Unless you think they lived for a thousand years and didn't have any children...
Archaeology and DNA versus the story from Hebrew Bible... hmm Anyways, this comment sums up the actual consensus, so you might as well familiarize yourself: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/16lv5y6/are_jews_canaanites/k1ax2tv/
You keep providing sources that don't argue the position you're trying to support. >Most historians believe that they were hill peoples from the region to the west and south of Canaan. They descended to the plain of Canaan well after the major cities had been abandoned. Canaanite society had collapsed to city states during the bronze collapse, the hebrew tribe came from outside and invaded the Canaanite cities, invading and conquering them. Having conquered them, adopted parts of their religion, they intermingled. The hebrew tribe adopted a semitic language in common with the Canaanites as they adopted their religious traditions.
Israelis *were Canaanites*. They are culturally indistinguishable from what we call Canaanites and genetically related as much as any Arab you care to find. Now, present evidence to the contrary to back up your initial statement ~"Israelis conquered Canaanites (which are somehow Palestinians)" or admit it doesn't make any sense. Up to you.
If I want to read anything that poorly arranged and formatted, then I'd stick to the Talmud as it is not as imbicillic as this response.
If you can’t argue the idea attack the person.
There's plenty of points to argue on, but it'd just waste more time.
>As of my understanding, Judaism is the oldest abrahamic religion and Jerusalem is its holy place from 10th century BC. >Christianity originated from around Jerusalem and Jesus was a Jew himself by birth. >So even the Bible proves that Jews lived around Jerusalem (the now land of Israel) since a long time than Christians and Muslims ever were. Ok but people change religions. As Christianity and Islam proves. Palestinians are the descendants of the Jews that originally inhabited the area. Most Jews never left the area, and instead just converted over a long period of time (though many didn't). This is verified by genetic testing, modern Palestinians are much more closely related to the remains we find from that time than the European Ashkenazi Jews who started arriving a little more than a hundred years ago.
Those "modern Arab Palestinians" are a result of the Arab conquest of the Levant, where they proceeded to forcefully convert the Judeans and Israelites.
They werent forced. The conversion was extremely slow and took literally hundreds of years. If people were being forced, it wouldve taken place in a single generation. There was still a large Jewish population who had never left under the ottomans and they wrote extensively about their experiences. You should read what they have to say.
So why would they convert to an ideology endorses hate towards their Jewishness? But, if so, they were still assimilated by the actual apartheid government of the Caliphites and some other Arab governances.
>So why would they convert to an ideology endorses hate towards their Jewishness? I don't know what you're talking about. Could you explain? The Quran specifically calls Jewish people (and Christians) "the people of an earlier revelation" or people of the book. >"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." Does this sound like an endorsement of hate? >"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." Or this? I'm not saying MUSLIMS have always been nice to Jews. But few groups of people could say so. But ISLAM does not say to hate Jews or Christians. >But, if so, they were still assimilated by the actual apartheid government of the Caliphites It was apartheid? Please enlighten me. Jews were a part of every day life, they generally were educated and you can read what they wrote today. They weren't banned from anything except the military. They paid a different tax, but not even really a higher one. It was just imposed on them separately because they otherwise didn't hold them responsible for following the Quran (which requires you to give money). And since the legal system is based on Islamic jurisprudence, they were allowed to keep their own legal system. Actually, that sort of system still exists today. Lebanon is many things but an apartheid state it is not. Islamic Spain had a huge educated Jewish population and they pretty much all fled back to Islamic rule when the Christians were doing the reconquista and starting the Spanish inquisition to get rid of all the Muslims and Jews. Why would this happen if what you're saying is true?
How would you explain 'if a jew hides behind a tree..' quote from a hadith, AKA, one of the most fundamental things in Islam as it is a saying of their prophet, and almost always taught to children in Islamic countries. I may be wrong about the later caliphites, but there was still the pact of Umar, which had done quite the damage to the Jewish population, hence the Apartheid I've been talking about. I may be a little fatigued or feel a little ailment, so I may be wrong.
>AKA, the second most fundamental book in Islam 🤣. Okay. The ahadith are not one specific book. The books of them do exist. They're just people quoting people quoting people quoting Muhammad. Not even all schools of Islam place much importance on them and few consider them to be divine and no one considers them to be the word of God. And they disagree on which ones are important, which ones are true and which ones are likely lies. And there are commentaries with the Hadith that explains these thought processes and gives each Hadith a rating. It's like reading Perushim in Judaism. There is only one book in Islam whose authority is unquestioned and that is the Quran. And I don't know which Hadith you're talking about.
Yeah, I got the terminology wrong, but I changed the comment. I would've guessed they'll be written somewhere like a central book or a collection of books, so I'm wrong on that behalf. I am getting quite tired and putting less effort into those responses, so I am sorry about that.
Someone takes your house because it used to belong to their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather. When you resist they kick you out by force. When you resist violently they throw you in jail. You kid is so angry he shoots the new persons son. How did this happen and who is the victim?
Israel came to place because Great Britain owned the land and decided that It'll be Israel. Palestine and other arab nations didn't like that and started a war [1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War) Israel won and kept their land and rightfully displaced the warmongering people into a place of their own. Palestine keeps on kicking and pricking making peace not possible and forcing Israel to control them. Palestine cries bloody murder and plays the victim card.
About the same time as the nakba, 750,000 Jews were fled/left Arab countries, often with bank accounts/houses seized. When Israel was founded, six Arab nations invaded, warning the Arabs living there to leave to avoid being slaughtered in the invasion. About 750,000 Arabs fled/left during this time.
Palestinians didn’t control those countries so what is your point? Some vague moral equivalency? This dog don’t hunt, love.
You mean bought your house. Jews didn't steal land by force. All their actions were legal and peaceful. Until Arabs started violence and wars.
1945 British Admin statistics say Jews only owned approximately 5.67% of the mandate’s total land area while the state owned about 46%. However, by 1948 Jewish ownership had increased to 6.6%.
At the end In the 1947 UN partition plan israel did get around 5% of the land. People complain about the border lines, but it was really a fair divide to everyone. In general the entire area was relatively open territory. There was enough space for 2 states. But the Arabs wanted all the territory and started the 1948 war.
Fun fact, if your ancestors didn't interbreed at all you would have more ancestors from 2000 years ago than there were people on earth at the time, by a factor of 10^(11)
You do know that there are Palestinian Jews that lived in Palestine peacefully with Muslims and Christian’s right? The new “Jews” that are trying to take over Palestine are European descendants. Obviously you didn’t do enough research on this topic because this seems very one sided.
the majority as of late aren’t of European decent and there are dozens of massacres done but Muslims to Jewish Palestinians for decades before Israel. So you are the mislead one here. I think you both did the research that was convinient to you beliefs
There are 1.9 billion Muslims in the world. There are approximately 15.5 million jews in the world. I don't have specific statistics but for example even if 99 percent of Muslims are normal peaceful people who just want normal life and such, that still leaves 1 percent of Muslims who are angry jihadis - approximately 19 million people. For social media and world news, jews are vastly outnumbered by Arabs with fancy marketing. Look at the net worth of the leaders of hamas .. the top 3 or 4 are all billionaires, because they pocket the aid money and donations instead of feeding their civilians. There are 2 refugee organizations. one for the rest of the world, one only for Palestinians unwra. For normal refugees , refugee status ends once you get citizenship in a different country. for unrwa refugees it's handed down paternally regardless of citizenship. and before any of you come at me, bibi is corrupt af too and we have been trying to get him out of office since before covid . one year we had 4 elections in a few months .
The numbers of muslims here is irrelevant, because it counts Muslims in Indonesia who have nothing to do with this war. It is just Israel vs. Palestine or Israel vs. countries of the middle east. For social media it also doesn't matter how many people are Muslims, but who owns the media. Elon Musk is Pro-Israel, visited Israel, talked with Netanyahu, but didn't visit West Bank. Yes, there are 2 refugee organizations, and there is also the UN resolution 194, that says Israel has to allow the refugees from the 1948 war to come back to their towns. Israel is denying them coming back to their villages. What kind of hypocricy is this? Blaming the refugee organization that only exists because Israel forced people out of their homes, who have a right to come back.
You don't seem to understand social media. Numbers matters much more. Millions of refugees moved around the world after wars without that right, what makes palestinians so special? Also What about all the jewish refugees? It was a fair trade. And remind you it wasn't israel who started the 1948 war. Don't cry that you lost your house after you tried to take someone's else.
Israeli armed groups started the war before May 1948 with attacking Arab villages on territories that would make a Palestinians country according to UN partition plan 1947, It is called plan Dalet. So they attacked villages outside of their future state and forced 300.000 Arabs to flee BEFORE Israel was founded. Israel started the war and used it to steal even more land.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine "the manifestations of joy of the Jewish community were counterbalanced by protests by Arabs throughout the country[16] and after 1 December, the Arab Higher Committee enacted a general strike that lasted three days." And in general the first arab attack on jewish towns was in 1920. The jewish village was destroyed completely.
We are talking about the main leaders: High Arab Commitee vs. Haganah&Irgun&Lechi, not some random mobs. And with the partition plan it was at this moment clear how the borders look like. The israeli terrorists were the ones who attacked Arab villages OUTSIDE their future state first
So because you categorized palestinians as random mob you excuse them from any responsibility for their actions? The arab leaders inside the territory were planning their violence attacks on jews just like Haganah&Irgun&Lechi were planning their defense after or before those attacks. >The israeli terrorists were the ones who attacked Arab villages OUTSIDE their future state first First of all I don't know if it's even true. If you can link the event please. Secondly after arab attack jews (as wiki shows) I support jews going in any territory in retaliation. It's like blaming jewish organizations for attacking the Germans during ww2 on German ground. If you hit my child in your house I have the full right to go in, break you, and put you in jail. Arabs had no reason attacking their innocent jewish neighbors. Random Jews weren't terrorists on massive scale, like we see palestinians today.
yeah, you're missing something. modern day israelis are largely european. they have no claim to live where someone else lives. they started every war. wtf is this post,, u sound simple
Over 60% of Israel is mizrhi jew and the other have ties to the land
no, its not over 60% from what ive read. also they can/do have ties to many other areas in the region
when you look at the power dynamics of the situation. Palestinians are currently displaced in the millions. 30 to 40, 000 deaths Whereas Israel has the big money and weapons coming in from their allies, 1 to 2000 deaths. The Palestinians are also native to that land. The religion of Islam may have started elsewhere yes ..but clearly the people who were already living in Palestine adopted the religion of Islam. It does not mean they belong in Saudi Arabia....no more then a Indonesian Muslim belongs in Saudi Arabia. Both people are native to that land. Jewish people and Palestinian people. you can say "Palestine started it" but really they are the ones facing genocide at this point, not the Israelis. Israelis are not living in refugee camps by the millions.
>Israelis are not living in refugee camps by the millions If you call where ever palestinians living a refugee camp why can't you say the same about israel?
I have not seen any information about Israeli refugee camps. can you provide some ?
I'm asking you. Stop looking for sources, use your own brain. You know what refugee camp means, right? Why do you include gaza, Lebanon, west bank, jordan... in this definition but you don't include israel?
I can restate my previous comment. I have accessed a surplus of information about Palestinian refugee camps. What the living conditions are. Where they are. How many people are in them (millions). I have yet to see any information about an Israeli refugee camp. Do they exist ? I have not heard any reports of them existing at this point. I do not know about events thousands of kms from me if I do not have access to information...aka sources. If anyone else reading this discussion has an answer, I appreciate it
What is 1+1=? do you also need a source for that? I'm asking you a very simple question here. You relying on sources exclusively instead of your own logic and brain is not very healthy thinking process. I will help you start. https://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/camps/#:~:text=Refugee%20camps%20are%20temporary%20facilities,to%20war%2C%20persecution%20or%20violence. This is the definition. Now the question is why do you include all the gsza, west.b,etc places in this definition and not places in israel?
now that this conversation has become condescending... I will respectfully decline to participate. Thank you for your contribution.
palestinians are NOT native to that land. the Jews are native to that land since the 10th century
Jews and Palestinians are closely related genetically
Even if they aren't the native to "that land", It's THEIR land. Just imagine if native Americans gathered then attack on US and occupies most of it. Would you say the SAME thing?? Israel is a FAKE country it was established after the 2 world war because of "Balfour Declaration" by Gathering Jews of Europe and Building colonies for them in Palestine. Then do you tell me that if your 10th grandfather was living in a city in Ghana and then He immigrated to another country, you and your cousins will occupy that city and kill as many as you can do; because you're the "NATIVE" and the world will sit back and watch as it does to Palestine now?!
they are both native to the land, the genetic tracing shows this. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004390000426
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What are the logistical benefits of goading your occupier into committing genocide to you and your people?
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Maybe coz they can’t move forward? Israel controls water and electricity and has now destroyed the city. What can they do?
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It’s actually the opposite. Currently 40% of the water of the Jordanian basin goes to Israel
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But that’s against the point again. It’s a well known fact that Israel controls the water and electricity. This is a basic human right that’s Palestinians don’t have
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Aid for one. Convincing your enemies allies to stop aiding them and instead have the more neutral nations aid you.
That's a volatile choice to make. Considering the ppl backing the people you are 'goading' to genocide are essentially the world's superpowers. That's an insanely high risk move to attempt considering they view you a terrorist organization. A VERY illogical step to make if you are Palestine/Hamas. I would need more (and better) examples
When you say Palestine is goading Israel into their own genocide....why would a group of people want their own genocide? how would it ever benefit them to see the complete elimination of every friend cousin parent sibling or any other human they have ever known? Genocide...is unlike anything in this world. It's not just murder and death... it removes the very trace of your entire ancestry off the map. Its extinction of your people. It does not matter who stated it or who is right or who did what at this point. Because the people in the political rooms that make the decisions regarding War are just a handful and the millions of civilians being killed injured and displaced are receiving the impact. No more genocide. Immediate ceasefire. If it cannot be fought about with their words then they (war leaders) don't deserve to have power to represent your people. They still basic and crude in their evolution and have far to go before they deserve that power. The outside countries need to step in because we are able to see this clearly. Israel Palestine need our support they are too involved to see clearly at this point. No more weapons shipped in. Immediate ceasefire. Verbal discussions. Treaties and agreements. Love. Humanity. Connection. Equality.
True genocide would be be bad, but what is good is a lot of civilian casualties that they can parade as a "genocide". The population numbers will be repleted in a month or two. From the Islamic perspective the Gazan civilians dying is good - they are martyrs who go straight to heaven. Unlike westerners who wear religion as a fake identity symbol, they truly believe.
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I appreciated your deep and well thought out response. I did disagree with calling it "just real estate". Connection to the land is one where the land is an extension of your very being. It's why many Palestinians refuse to leave. They know once they leave they won't return and they would rather die with their land then leave it. Through understanding Indigenous people in Canada, I have come to understand that land is often woven into the identity of the people that are living with and through it.
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This goes beyond religion ..this is identity. What is Greek culture without their Mediterranean environment? What is my South Indian culture without our tropical environment? Every part of our identity is connected to our land. your body is built for the land...from the food it grows to the climate and many other reasons. It matters.
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I mean what are they fighting for if not control over the land ? What do you think it is ?
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anti-semitism. It is innate unfortunately. People can’t accept that jews are correct. It’s so good and that would solve all the worlds conflicts
Antisemitism, my friend. The West and Hamas have a common enemy in the Jews. The West isn't exactly fond of Muslims either, but they hate nobody more than Jews. Thus, the West stands with Palestine.
lol the west hates Jews but the west is funding Israel’s genocide so the Jews can have their own land. Makes a lot of sense.
Of course it doesn’t make sense to you because you’re not from an oppressed minority. Arabs have dozens of countries they can do whatever they want in (well not the women of course lol) and so the west will always support Jews and their right to exist and self determination. This is a western value and the Middle East and Africa and many parts of Asia don’t have western values and this is why the west is advanced and powerful and why the Middle East relies on 15th century thinking and brutality.
Yeah. Israel was created with antisemitic motives from the West in the first place. "Make a place for the Jews to get them out of here", basically.
Yeah so what does that have to do with the Palestinians. The Jews were murdered and displaced by the west why do Palestinians have to deal with it?
It was Palestine to be begin with. Palestine was made up by Arafat in the 60s as a KGB agent and Russia trying to start a proxi war for their own benefit. Jordan is effectively Palestine if at all. The Jews took back their land and will by any means necessary resist Hamas attempts to genocide the Jews.
It’s Jewish land that was stolen by people that had no right to be there. The very idea of Palestine was made up by Arafat as agent of the KGB in the 60s. Palestine isn’t real and never was and never will be.
I believe that that is the same sentiment Palestinians felt & feel being forced out of their homes to make space for others that have been displaced.
yeah, that's why we funded them & sent them more $//weapons than any other country, ever
I think if I invite you as a guest into my home and you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day and tell me you're doing a me a kindness by kicking me into the doghouse, you're probably the problem. Israel has a long, documented history of their intent. None of this information is private although Israel does try to revise history as they clearly never planned on the internet spreading mass information on that scale. Ie, look at their scholarships for students to edit Wikipedia articles and argue with people online. They have whole college courses you can find and textbooks specifically on how to edit Wikipedia courses. Immediately after October 7th, anytime you Googled Palestine only Wikipedia articles would pop up. Israel took out a superbowl add and didn't declare it as government funded. Etc. Part of that marketing is painting Palestine as the aggressors. Oh, they're so mean for getting upset when we murdered grandma. But out grandma got murdered in the Holocaust so I deserve his house now. Etc. Is there barbarism on both sides? Absolutely. But not on the scale Israel is demonstrating. They had a government run program to steal organs from Palestinians in the 90s. They had the Nakba of 1948. They have years of peaceful protests being shot at by the IDF. At some point, you have to fight back. Israel created Hamas as well to ensure the marketing stuck. They managed to destroy the previous functioning governments and they deliberately funded Hamas to do it. (In addition to other efforts like the checkpoints and physically separating populations to limit the spread of information, controlling the law, taxes, police forces, military, etc). Wouldn't you also get upset if thr people who used mass illegal immigration and had multiple genocidal campaigns kept trying to kill you after herding you into an open aired prison? I sure would be ready to defend myself and my family in any way possible if I were in the same position.
it became "your house" through violent conquest. "you" are not from jerusalem. "you" are from saudi arabia. so is your language, your culture, and your ethnicity. "you" stole the house and got mad when the original owners "stole" it back.
If the house was abandoned for 400 years and several people lived in it since you left and built other homes and families and you have no legal claim to it, isn't still your house? Cuz the Native Americans in USA and Canada are asking.
I would be happy to discuss the matter with other native peoples.
They have been asking for their land back formally for years and actually have legal documents to back up their claims. You must support their rights as well, correct?
Of course.
Great, where do you live?
None of your business. No thanks to giving information to an open terrorist supporter.
You think opposing Palestinian children starving in an open air prison being actively bombed makes me a terrorist supporter? Interesting.
We are back to the open-air prison propaganda again. I thought this war destroyed beautiful Gaza.
>you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence. The people who now call themselves Palestinians never owned or ruled the area, yet claim it was somehow stolen from them and they want it back. Israel was given permission to start a Jewish state by the country who ended up in possession of the area following WWI. The UN approved the idea. Both Jews and Arabs in the area were offered territories. Jews accepted and Palestinians refused because they thought they could just attack and take it by force.
About that, didn’t the British offer the Jews 50% of Palestinian land? That percentage started growing within a few years itself. Call that legal? Majority of the UN nations have unanimously called most of the Israeli settlements unlawful.
The British even asked them to stop stealing in the 1940's and the Jews committed the Nakba of 1948 as a response. They also spend a lot of money and time whitewashed their history since the Zionist who started this whole mess was literally a terrorist who shook hands with Nazis repeatedly for Israel's existence.
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It is compliance as I am talking about literal Nazis and not Zionists who hold Nazi ideals.
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Palestinians never had land for anyone to take. Palestine has never been an independent country. There never were a people called Palestinians until the Arabs in the area decided to start agitating for a homeland. They deserved a homeland, just like the Jews. The problem is they didn't want to share. They wanted the entire area to fall under Arab rule. I don't want to talk about Israeli settlements when there is war going on in Gaza. Bringing that up is just a distraction technique. The bottom line is the British military defeated the Ottoman empire and were appointed to administer the whole area. The League of Nations agreed to a Jewish state. Arabs were given control of the vast majority of the land in the British mandate, something like 94% of the land. That wasn't good enough for them. They wanted it all. When the League of Nations turned over their power to the UN a 2ss was offered to both the Jewish people and the Arabs who had began calling themselves Palestinians. The Jews accepted and the Arabs refused. That decision put Jews in the driver's seat. You don't get to refuse to accept power and them try to second guess and control what the only party who stepped up to the plate does.
"***you choose to steal it while I'm at work one day*** ***Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence*****.**" Ok, we can say that You choose to move in but squeeze me in one corner and use any means to get me out. "***Except they didn't steal anything. This is the lie that the Palestinians tell themselves to justify their long history of terrorism and violence.***" That is wrong, not correct statement "***The people who now call themselves Palestinians never owned or ruled the area, but claim it was somehow stolen from them and they want it back."*** Also, the Jews never owned the area or God never said "I gave it to you", they conquered it when the Jews, belonged to the nomadic Shasu people. "***Israel was given permission to start a Jewish state from the land who came into possession of the area after the First World War. U.N approved the idea. Both Jews and Arabs in the area were offered areas. Jews accepted and Palestinians refused because they thought they could only attack and take it by force."*** Yes, the Jews accepted because they got more land than enough so it was not a just share while the Palestinians got less land, among other. and so on
I literally can't understand your rebuttal. Learn to use quote blocks. Highlight the quote you're responding to and click the three buttons at the bottom and look for the parentheses.
pretty easy to understand
thanks!
Their self declared intent is to keep Israelis safe from harm, and, yes, they have political agendas. Palestinians self declared intent is to eradicate and make Israelis leave. Defence against a hybrid warfare is breaking the enemies leadership structure both in military terms and legal terms. In legal terms Palestinians unsuccessfully attempted to commit genocide. And Israelis to protect. Now the post clearly states that Israelis were there first. Historical paradigm is that Israelis were there first. Archaeology paradigm is that it was the place that Israelis settled partly because it was -almost- empty space. They were banned from there by many conquerors over the centuries. But it's documented that they helped Arabs to conquer the place in order to be able to settle there, which they weren't allowed to do during Roman times. Some stealing occurred, but it happened the other way around. Furthermore Palestinians have always been an ethnic minority there. They were sitting ottoman times and Roman times and British times. They started to have a problem partly because Israelis -being right to- weren't just conquerors but considered the place their own and partly because they hated Jews before and they bought the propaganda against them at the time. In case you didn't know there is a difference between having your own state and being autonomous. Palestinians are just autonomous. They are essentially Israelis citizens. Also, their autonomous government is giving payment to anyone who kills Israelis. Israeli wrath is absolutely their fault. And try finding an ethnic minority which is allowed the same advantages Palestinians have. Autonomous government, separate funding, their own laws, elections, land under their rule. Start working outwards and tell me which ethnic minority has that. Killing had gone way down in the past two years. That's a fact. Palestinians declared that it was part of their planning, to lul Israelis in a feeling of safety. That means that Israel is the aggressor in your book? Israel is -maybe- overreacting, but they aren't at fault!
The Native Americans are going to get their land back too then, right?
If the one holding it, which was the British at the time in Israel's case, wants to give it back to them, then yes. If America wants to give it back it can. But in Israel's case, Britain didn't conquer Palestinians either. It wasn't Palestine before that either. Romans conquered Jews though so the last of the two to hold a state there was Israel. And for the record, Palestinians were almost half a million after WW2 there. Considering the mixed population there is now closer to 15 million they weren't exactly pushed. There are several bigger ethic minorities without a state of their own even now. The reason they are now much more is political, and it is by design. Average age in Gaza strip is 17,4. They are doing it to push Israel out by force.
We are part of the commonwealth. Also, Britain has asked Israel to give land back repeatedly. That's why Israel retaliated with the Nakba of 1948. You're going to give up your home first if someone else has claim to the land, right?
I don't know, ask the Palestinians. But if they gave the natives their land back and then asked them to part with it they'd have a problem too. They actually had in several cases in the recent past. You fail to realize that Israel had the claim to the land, history says so. Politics disagree partly, and fairly recently in historical terms.
Palestinians have legal documents for their homes. So do Native Americans. Can you point out which Israeli settler has direct legal claim to specific homes and lands?
Legal documents from who? Ottomans? British? As I understand it they are autonomous, not independent. The land you are referring to is part of the state of Israel, which disagrees. I lost a home to a train track 10 years ago and got a fraction of its worth back. Part of what's wrong with this world is thinking you can change the laws by force. A law you don't like isn't a trigger. Several war crimes and an attack by an irregular force is. What happens is what experience and logic predicted. Every country has a right to break an enemy which attacked first. When Hamas said that the dive in the body count was part of their plan to make Israel feel safe and make it possible for them to do greater damage to population behind the border you think they didn't attack first? What you see is a standard procedure in military terms. Ps. You also see the bonus tactic of Palestine abusing your morals and using your character to pressure others, as this was part of their plan too. They have in the past
Just because the prior democracy didn't perfectly align with Western standards doesn't mean it wasn't a function political system. I think that's why you're getting confused and assuming peopme whove lived there for multiple generations to Roman times have less claim than non-semitic jews using illegal mass immigration and genocide to establish a majority. Because only an idiot would believe another country with different political practices, beliefs, religions and social norms isn't a functioning country because they didn't adapt Western norms the moment they were being violently enforced on the existing inhabitants of said land. Hope this helps!
Are you for real? Killing of thousands of innocents isn’t reason enough for you???
Killing,though a correct term in terms in language, shows intent. Targeting and killing civilians is both illegal and is considered murder. Legally, though, it isn't the correct term. Targeting an enemy combatant hiding amongst civilians is legal and the civilians are considered collateral damage. Tolerating a high collateral damage is what they are doing and it's both legally and in terms of language correct. It's what they are doing. And they are working under the ethical and realistic assumption that both the enemy combatants are using civilians and a certain number of civilians tolerate and have knowledge of the combatants amongst them, if not straight up helping them that way. Innocents isn't a correct term either. They are non combatants, sure, but collaborating and hiding Hamas, taking directions from Hamas officials, and making Israel's job harder makes them not innocent in a great number of instances. If you are implying women and children, which many people do by this term, women are able to help Hamas, and have in certain cases. The average age in Gaza is 17,4, the average age of a Hamas fighter, especially the low level combatants, is considered to be 1-2 years younger than that, which is considered a death of a child in west and the news, but not under the circumstances. You are a victim of Hamas plan to weaponize your sympathy. They have increased both on west bank and Gaza almost tenfold in 70 years and Gaza government has asked for funding specifically for population growth for this exact purpose.
just because something is legal doesn't make it right or justifiable at all
That's why I made an argument on ethics. Civilians protecting military or civilians knowingly standing near combatants gives them an ethical responsibility. We would all prefer no killing takes place. But Palestinians saying that killing from both sides went down because they were trying to make Israel feel safe and strike at the right time and do bigger damage makes them the aggressors. And the ones starting the bloodshed. What happens now is a military using the standard tactic on defending against a hybrid threat. Read the whole comment before answering please.
if your concern was ethics then you wouldn't focus so much on legality. which is ironic, because you believe that those victims who are innocent &/or children cannot be claimed to be because of their circumstances.... you basically believe almost no one is innocent & the children cant be considered such.... seems dehumanizing to me. there are definitely innocent people there, & the fact of the matter is that israel has been engaging in aggressive land-stealing behavior consistently for the past +75 years. also those 2 sentences in the middle of your last paragraph didn't really make sense
Well me including an ethics argument isn't a sign I am not actively considering the ethics. What I said you should at the very least try to counter before you do anything else. I didn't say all of them knew but collateral is an ethical burden on the ones that started the bloodshed. It isn't some kind of response they hadn't considered. And they chose to weaponize even the peaceful days as part of their plan. I included the legality of the Israeli actions because if you are correct ethically to respond with violence and you haven't broken a war law while the other side has admitted to having done that when talking about not releasing the military prisoners but the civilians only you are on the clear. That includes blood but there is justified violence.