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This is the answer. People just happen to get the same common Icons because that's what they relate to those concepts. Fist for Strength, for instance. I'm sure if someone thought about it independently enough and related more to a more specific Icon for Strength they wouldn't get a Fist, for instance. That's Ozmanthus's point with the Broom Icon. It's not a joke Icon, but just how he relates his form of Destruction to an Icon.
This is an interesting theory that I think is worth exploring further, but it's far from being directly supported by the text. Is there any other supporting evidence that you can think of?
I think people get a lot of the same Icons because Cradle is a world that pushes people towards combat. In order to reach the point of becoming a Sage to begin with you will likely be fighting for the resources you need. Lots of Strength, Dragon, Sword, and elemental Icons because the paths that lead you towards these Icons are successful in the Cradle ecosystem.
My point was most people who get the Strength Icon manifest a Fist Icon representing Strength, where as I'm sure if someone viewed Strength in a different way they could manifest it as something else... like a giant beefy leg or whatever. However since people learn about Icons from common sources they get common Icons. This is why Ozmanthus was interesting. I'm sure there are other Destruction flavored Icons he could've found, but his personal flavor was the Broom and it matched his form of Destruction.
I mean. It isn't literally about only Brooms, it's about what Brooms represent. Which is cleaning things without anything left behind... aka perfect Destruction. Just like the Fist Icon isn't only about punching but the scope of what a Fist means, which typically mean the Strength a Fist represents.
Every Icon has a scope of what it represents and the flavor of Icon just helps define it.
If the Broom Icon was only about Brooms Ozriel wouldn't have a Scythe lol.
Oh he definitely has more Icons, but this one is pretty core to his Origin. And it's exactly how his Scythe functions. It sweeps Iterations from existence so cleanly and so perfectly there's no remnants left behind to cause Fiend or corruption problems. Broom as fuck.
Which part? More Icons is speculation I think. I haven't read enough WoWs to know for sure, but given his ease of manifesting them in the first place and how vigorously he collected other magic systems, it seems pretty likely.
On the matter of how his power and Scythe works, it's canon from both the books and WoW.
It is, and he had. We know of the broom and death icons, but don't know what else he had manifested. I'd be shocked to find out that's the only icons he manifested, since Oracle/sight/eye icon would also be suitable.
Icons aren't about the item. Fury didn't advance with a giant fist in the sky because he had long fingers. Icons are symbolic, and the broom isnt about brooms, but about cleaning up or removing things
Thought exercise: if a dragon got the strength icon, what would it look like? It should be common enough, dragons can be sages (Suu for example) and strength is part of their identity and culture, but it's hard to imagine a fist really representing how they see strength. To me, at least.
That's something that always bugged me about discussions with Eithan. Everyone quotes it as he can manifest any icon he wants he is that smart.
But thats not it, he simply could understand the nuance of how people connect to the way and didn't force himself to think about things the common way. Instead of destroying things, he was cleaning them up or some interpretation along those lines. It wasn't any at random, it was something still fundamentally aligned with him.
Yea, if he could just manifest anything, he probably would have just manifested the Icon of Healing or the Icon of Joy, and his Phoenix compatibility would not have been so terrible.
I think that is what’s I was trying to get to above as well that it’s a reflection of your intentions, maybe easier if you embody it but it reflects a personal will and what the way sees in them.
When we learned about the existence of the Broom and Joy Icons it really opened the door to what Icons can exist. There's probably the Chef Icon or the Loser Icon.
As for a Ruler/King Icon, Malice at least most likely has one. Here's an excerpt from Dreadgod.
"A specter rose into the air behind Malice, an echo of power like an Icon. This was a crowned woman whose regal authority he could sense, a ruler in elaborate clothes. She did not resemble Malice herself, but her expression was cold and full of disdain. An empress looking down on an enemy."
It wouldn't surprise me if all the Monarchs who rule over huge territories have some kind of Ruler/King/Queen Icon. Let's not forget that the symbols on the badges of the Sacred Valley artists represent Icons. IIRC The striker badge had an arrow (probably Bow Icon), the enforcer had a shield (Ziel will probably manifest), the ruler had a scepter, and forger has a hammer.
Also, I'd find it hard to believe if the Life or Will Icon didn't exist because as you said, their opposite exists. If Suriel was native to Cradle she most likely would've manifested it while Durandiel would've manifested the Will Icon.
Ah, great quote, I forgot that line! Thanks. It would make sense, especially if they've ruled for centuries like Malice. I always wonder if there's an upper limit to how many you can have. Is there a limit to how many ways you can define yourself in the Way? I'm guessing Oz had at least seven, but could someone gain authority over a dozen? Two dozen? What kind of monster would that make you, especially once you ascend? I think Lindon still has one or two left to claim at least. There may be an opportunity cost to getting certain Icons. Perhaps the Death Icon precludes the Life Icon, and that's what hampered Ozriel?
I'm glad I could remind you :D. I don't think there's a limit with Icons unless they're opposed to one another. Like you said, Death and Life are diametrically opposed so. . .I think Oz might be screwed. But who knows, maybe there's an Icon of Compatibility that allows someone to potentially manifest literally any Icon.
It would be a nice character arc for Oz to manifest some kind of restorative Icon. Sure, he's the best killer in the multiverse but he can change and become a sweetheart.
Ah now that's a fascinating idea... An Icon for gaining Icons! Sounds like exactly the kind of cheese Eithan would abuse without remorse. I wonder if gaining the Willpower Icon would have that kind of effect? Or maybe something related to adaptability or learning...
Spoilers for future books maybe
Spoiler tags don’t seems to be working for me. You have been warned.
>!So in the last horizon Veric makes several mentions of the etheric being more on intention. I have a feeling that the way and willpower and icons and all that falls along these lines!<
So based on that I think the icon is the manifestation of the ideal of that characters primary quality and what they want to represent. Which is also why Eithan is so keen to change his.
For this I would say if you want to create paths and icons. Go for it, why not right.
I know I am on mobile and tried changing it twice with no luck. I even went outside Reddit and tried to look it up but no luck. Could be a mobile thing. Also not a huge spoiler for the book.
I think the trouble was the period. Right now the order is period, arrow, !. I've found that the period can mess up my tag on mobile, so I typically skip them. So I'd just do (! <) no space, and call it good.
Usually the problem people have is with a space between the spoilers and the spoiler tag. There can't be a leading or trailing space between the text and the tags. Though it looks like you might've just swapped the bang and bracket.
Actually it's the opposite. Will responded to a question about this recently, saying that most iterations Horizon's included don't have touching The Way as a natural part of it's magic system. So while aether has similarities to The Way it doesn't push you to connect to The Way or even have a built in way to do so.
I think I asked that question XD I asked about Icons and other iterations and he said they manifest differently and were kind of woven into the magic of The Captain, they just manifest differently from iteration to iteration.
I’m sure there’s an icon for life, but what does it mean to be the definition of life? To live the longest? That would mean every arch lord would just naturally be a sage. To give and nurture life? Nope, that’s just a gardener. I’d like to hear what you think
I actually have an idea for a Monarch on a path of Light, Life, and Water who achieved his monarch status by meditating for a truly astounding amount of time. Over time, his path radiates life giving light around him and creates a jungle of ancestral trees from a desert. To me that seems to be someone who embodies life: giving life where none existed before. I thought it would be interesting to explore achieving Monarch without combat, on a peaceful path.
IIRC, she was a sage who was killed for creating the dreamway, then her remnant eventually became a Herald and that's how she reached Monarch. I think there's mention in the books of her knowledge pre-death being fuzzy. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It may be close though, I originally had the idea before I learned much about Emriss so it may be convergent character design.
It seems like it's a little unclear on exactly what she was when she died. Here's another [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Iteration110Cradle/comments/l5ddhb/how_did_emriss_silentborn_ascend_to_monarch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) talking about it, and this user sums up why I'm leaning more on her being a Monarch when she originally died.
>It does not **specifically** say she was a Herald when she was killed. It says she was a Herald when she created the Dreamway, and then it says she was later killed by a trio of rival Monarchs when she was trying to build a global portal network. There's no statement that she was *still* a Herald when that happened. In fact, I'd aruge the way it's phrased is a positive implication towards her being a Monarch at the time. *Rival* implies they're equal opponents, and it doesn't take three Monarchs to kill one Herald.
It might if your Herald has ten thousand remnants at once.
She is referred to once as the remnant who became a monarch. It might have even been "Herald remnant."
Ah, thanks for the clarification, been a minute since my last reread. I wonder if part of her friendliness towards the team has to do with the fact that they're also kind of making up their own ways to advance, kind of like her own unconventional history.
She was a monarch prior to her death. She crafted the dreamway, but it was originally for sharing dreams, like creative writing, and was limited in scope. She later tried to expand this to house all knowledge and then she was assassinated. All we know is that this wasn't a weekend project and likely required her to be monarch to achieve such a feat
She was originally a Herald (might have already been a Monarch at her death) who crafted the Dreamway and then started lobbying and investing into a world-wide teleportation network.
However, her main goal with this was the spread of knowledge, with an unstated intention (which the Monarchs likely were aware of) of spreading knowledge of the Hunger issue.
This was what got her killed, but her remnants later merged and re-established her old personality/memories from memory tablets she had left behind, and at this point either ascended from Herald to Monarch, or re-established herself as a Monarch.
Someone following a life path primarily as a healer could be seen as 'controlling life' perhaps? We know that is more how others see you as well, see the sword sage battling others then asking how they saw him
I think anything is possible as long as it’s for enough to your being and you connect to the way.
It’s all about interpretation. That’s why there are concerts like Hunger and Void that do largely the same thing but with different flavors to them.
Disclaimer: This is purely my speculation, theorizing, and headcanon.
That said, I think that just like how you have to resonate with and strongly embody a concept along with possessing a focused will to manifest an Icon… Icons only exist for concepts with strong enough and clear enough significance within the human _experience_ to resonate with human _sapience_ and be reflected in the Way.
And, I think that to some level the Icons are just representative symbols for the authority they reflect. Which would mean that they are somewhat open to interpretation. The Broom Icon, for example… Brooms probably aren’t a strong or significant enough concept on their own to become an Icon, but it is a handy symbol for representing the concept of “cleaning up the world of its problems” or something like that.
The Strength Icon and the Will Icon… I don’t think there’s a “Will Icon” per se, because I don’t think Will and Strength are opposites, and Will seems a tad vague to be an Icon on its own. But I do think, and I think this is what you’re getting at mentioning them together, there’s an Icon for _Spiritual_ Power (that covers or influences Will, among other things) to match the Strength Icon (the representation of _Physical_ Power). That said, Will Icon or Strength Icon would just be names. Across cultures there might be multiple Icons that share those, or other, names. Which could be kind of fun, a character or path that possessed multiple Icons that shared the same name across differing cultures, and had overlapping areas of authority. Keeping in mind though that multiple sources of Authority aren’t always better than one more thorough/developed source of Authority.
Anyhow… Take it all with a grain of salt. It gets wonky when you start talking about the conceptual stuff. Fun, but wonky.
Honestly, I would love it if Will just wrote a few theses from the perspective of scholars or sages in-universe debating the workings of Icons, authority, willpower, and the conceptual because you just _know_ that it’s heavily debated on Cradle.
Right, we know there are people who study it because Oz debated a bunch and manifested the Broom Icon right? I think you may be on to it, maybe the *person* lends the *Icon* some of its authority through their perception of the idea and their own power, will, and significance, like your example with the Broom. I get that Will doesn't want to nail himself into a web of super hard rules he has to check as he writes though, especially with Icons since they cross over between Willverse series.
I think the individual _definitely_ contextualizes the Icon. I mean, there has to be _some_ universality and central core to the concepts each Icon embodies but it does awfully seem like each person brings their own talents and affinities to their connection to their Icon(s).
Case in point, spacial affinity seems to run in the Akura clan judging off of Malice and Charity’s affinity for it, but as far as we know Charity only possesses the Heart Icon (I could be wrong on that) and what does Heart have to do with spacial authority? Probably some sort of personal talent or connection Charity made when she pushed for the Icon. But another individual with the Heart Icon might not possess that same facility while still having other shared powers under the umbrella of “Heart.”
I believe your assessment is entirely correct but I am not perfectly certain. I do believe, though, that the Icons are at least partially the product of the sapient citizens of the Way and their concepts.
As a person advances in their understanding of their chosen icon, they gain greater control over the corresponding aspect of reality. For example, a person who has mastered the Strength Icon will have greater physical strength and be able to manipulate and control the strength of others.
This mastery over a particular aspect of reality gives a person authority over that aspect. In the world of Cradle, those who have advanced far enough in their icon cultivation are granted titles such as Sage or Monarch, which indicate their authority over their chosen aspect of reality.
Furthermore, those who have ascended to a higher realm of existence through their mastery of their icon are considered to be the most authoritative beings in the world of Cradle. These beings, known as Judges or Abidan, have near-omnipotent power and are responsible for maintaining the balance of the universe.
Overall, icons play a significant role in establishing a hierarchy of authority in the world of Cradle, with those who have advanced further in their icon cultivation possessing greater power and authority over others. This is why in Reaper Ozriel was able to take a copy of his scythe from Daruman with ease and unmake it with equal easy. Authority over the labyrinth is another example. The more Lindon was related and embodied aspect of the labyrinth the more authority he gained over it and even more so, the more he gained over Shen. “Be gone!” While Heralds are beings that can also extert will power externally, they do so in a broader sense with less focus and tend to focus their will power internally in relation to their power and techniques. It is the inverse for Sages, they focus externally on reality and in a focal way that grants them superior will power over specific aspects.
This post can include discussion and book material up to and including book [Dreadgod]. If you want to discuss book material that is beyond the scope of [Dreadgod] than you must use >!Spoiler formatting!< which can be applied \>! like this !\<. You can read this [formatting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/wiki/ref/faq/formatting_guide/) for more details. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Iteration110Cradle) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Anything you can think of, there is an Icon for that. That was Eithan's entire point when he manifested the Broom Icon.
This is the answer. People just happen to get the same common Icons because that's what they relate to those concepts. Fist for Strength, for instance. I'm sure if someone thought about it independently enough and related more to a more specific Icon for Strength they wouldn't get a Fist, for instance. That's Ozmanthus's point with the Broom Icon. It's not a joke Icon, but just how he relates his form of Destruction to an Icon.
This is an interesting theory that I think is worth exploring further, but it's far from being directly supported by the text. Is there any other supporting evidence that you can think of?
I think people get a lot of the same Icons because Cradle is a world that pushes people towards combat. In order to reach the point of becoming a Sage to begin with you will likely be fighting for the resources you need. Lots of Strength, Dragon, Sword, and elemental Icons because the paths that lead you towards these Icons are successful in the Cradle ecosystem.
My point was most people who get the Strength Icon manifest a Fist Icon representing Strength, where as I'm sure if someone viewed Strength in a different way they could manifest it as something else... like a giant beefy leg or whatever. However since people learn about Icons from common sources they get common Icons. This is why Ozmanthus was interesting. I'm sure there are other Destruction flavored Icons he could've found, but his personal flavor was the Broom and it matched his form of Destruction.
Broom Icon is an Icon about Brooms, not Destruction. Otherwise it would've been called the Destruction Icon.
I mean. It isn't literally about only Brooms, it's about what Brooms represent. Which is cleaning things without anything left behind... aka perfect Destruction. Just like the Fist Icon isn't only about punching but the scope of what a Fist means, which typically mean the Strength a Fist represents. Every Icon has a scope of what it represents and the flavor of Icon just helps define it. If the Broom Icon was only about Brooms Ozriel wouldn't have a Scythe lol.
Why are we assuming he only has one icon? We've been told only one, but in Reaper it's shown he can potentially manifest a number of different icons
Oh he definitely has more Icons, but this one is pretty core to his Origin. And it's exactly how his Scythe functions. It sweeps Iterations from existence so cleanly and so perfectly there's no remnants left behind to cause Fiend or corruption problems. Broom as fuck.
Is this from Will or fandom?
Which part? More Icons is speculation I think. I haven't read enough WoWs to know for sure, but given his ease of manifesting them in the first place and how vigorously he collected other magic systems, it seems pretty likely. On the matter of how his power and Scythe works, it's canon from both the books and WoW.
I think it's said that he achieved the death icon as well
It is, and he had. We know of the broom and death icons, but don't know what else he had manifested. I'd be shocked to find out that's the only icons he manifested, since Oracle/sight/eye icon would also be suitable.
Icons aren't about the item. Fury didn't advance with a giant fist in the sky because he had long fingers. Icons are symbolic, and the broom isnt about brooms, but about cleaning up or removing things
Thought exercise: if a dragon got the strength icon, what would it look like? It should be common enough, dragons can be sages (Suu for example) and strength is part of their identity and culture, but it's hard to imagine a fist really representing how they see strength. To me, at least.
That's something that always bugged me about discussions with Eithan. Everyone quotes it as he can manifest any icon he wants he is that smart. But thats not it, he simply could understand the nuance of how people connect to the way and didn't force himself to think about things the common way. Instead of destroying things, he was cleaning them up or some interpretation along those lines. It wasn't any at random, it was something still fundamentally aligned with him.
Yea, if he could just manifest anything, he probably would have just manifested the Icon of Healing or the Icon of Joy, and his Phoenix compatibility would not have been so terrible.
I think that is what’s I was trying to get to above as well that it’s a reflection of your intentions, maybe easier if you embody it but it reflects a personal will and what the way sees in them.
What about the Wayboud To Be Release 4/22/2023 Icon?
You can actually manifest the Will icon by eating too many oreos
Damn it, I knew this joke was coming...
Only if after years of training and a deep understanding of the Oreo will you manifest the Will icon
This post is author bait.
Don't think that'll work. I don't have the oreos WITH me.
When we learned about the existence of the Broom and Joy Icons it really opened the door to what Icons can exist. There's probably the Chef Icon or the Loser Icon. As for a Ruler/King Icon, Malice at least most likely has one. Here's an excerpt from Dreadgod. "A specter rose into the air behind Malice, an echo of power like an Icon. This was a crowned woman whose regal authority he could sense, a ruler in elaborate clothes. She did not resemble Malice herself, but her expression was cold and full of disdain. An empress looking down on an enemy." It wouldn't surprise me if all the Monarchs who rule over huge territories have some kind of Ruler/King/Queen Icon. Let's not forget that the symbols on the badges of the Sacred Valley artists represent Icons. IIRC The striker badge had an arrow (probably Bow Icon), the enforcer had a shield (Ziel will probably manifest), the ruler had a scepter, and forger has a hammer. Also, I'd find it hard to believe if the Life or Will Icon didn't exist because as you said, their opposite exists. If Suriel was native to Cradle she most likely would've manifested it while Durandiel would've manifested the Will Icon.
Ah, great quote, I forgot that line! Thanks. It would make sense, especially if they've ruled for centuries like Malice. I always wonder if there's an upper limit to how many you can have. Is there a limit to how many ways you can define yourself in the Way? I'm guessing Oz had at least seven, but could someone gain authority over a dozen? Two dozen? What kind of monster would that make you, especially once you ascend? I think Lindon still has one or two left to claim at least. There may be an opportunity cost to getting certain Icons. Perhaps the Death Icon precludes the Life Icon, and that's what hampered Ozriel?
I'm glad I could remind you :D. I don't think there's a limit with Icons unless they're opposed to one another. Like you said, Death and Life are diametrically opposed so. . .I think Oz might be screwed. But who knows, maybe there's an Icon of Compatibility that allows someone to potentially manifest literally any Icon. It would be a nice character arc for Oz to manifest some kind of restorative Icon. Sure, he's the best killer in the multiverse but he can change and become a sweetheart.
Ah now that's a fascinating idea... An Icon for gaining Icons! Sounds like exactly the kind of cheese Eithan would abuse without remorse. I wonder if gaining the Willpower Icon would have that kind of effect? Or maybe something related to adaptability or learning...
Spoilers for future books maybe Spoiler tags don’t seems to be working for me. You have been warned. >!So in the last horizon Veric makes several mentions of the etheric being more on intention. I have a feeling that the way and willpower and icons and all that falls along these lines!< So based on that I think the icon is the manifestation of the ideal of that characters primary quality and what they want to represent. Which is also why Eithan is so keen to change his. For this I would say if you want to create paths and icons. Go for it, why not right.
Just to let you know, yhe spoiler tag doesn't seem to have worked for your comment.
I know I am on mobile and tried changing it twice with no luck. I even went outside Reddit and tried to look it up but no luck. Could be a mobile thing. Also not a huge spoiler for the book.
>Also not a huge spoiler for the book. True
I think the trouble was the period. Right now the order is period, arrow, !. I've found that the period can mess up my tag on mobile, so I typically skip them. So I'd just do (! <) no space, and call it good.
Let me try to change it
Usually the problem people have is with a space between the spoilers and the spoiler tag. There can't be a leading or trailing space between the text and the tags. Though it looks like you might've just swapped the bang and bracket.
You might have a point, Icons are supposed to be kind of woven into >! The Captain's magic system!< so that might be the right track.
Delete the space after the first exclamation point and your spoiler should work.
Actually it's the opposite. Will responded to a question about this recently, saying that most iterations Horizon's included don't have touching The Way as a natural part of it's magic system. So while aether has similarities to The Way it doesn't push you to connect to The Way or even have a built in way to do so.
I think I asked that question XD I asked about Icons and other iterations and he said they manifest differently and were kind of woven into the magic of The Captain, they just manifest differently from iteration to iteration.
You have the last spoiler tag backwards
Wow ok fixed so the arrow goes on the outside and points in plus the ! Is inside the text, thanks and fixed
Please fix your spoiler tags. I just got spoiled.
Not really a spoiler. More of a supposition. It's not confirmed in the text
I’m sure there’s an icon for life, but what does it mean to be the definition of life? To live the longest? That would mean every arch lord would just naturally be a sage. To give and nurture life? Nope, that’s just a gardener. I’d like to hear what you think
I actually have an idea for a Monarch on a path of Light, Life, and Water who achieved his monarch status by meditating for a truly astounding amount of time. Over time, his path radiates life giving light around him and creates a jungle of ancestral trees from a desert. To me that seems to be someone who embodies life: giving life where none existed before. I thought it would be interesting to explore achieving Monarch without combat, on a peaceful path.
Didn't Emriss Silentborn basically attain Monarch that way?
IIRC, she was a sage who was killed for creating the dreamway, then her remnant eventually became a Herald and that's how she reached Monarch. I think there's mention in the books of her knowledge pre-death being fuzzy. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. It may be close though, I originally had the idea before I learned much about Emriss so it may be convergent character design.
It seems like it's a little unclear on exactly what she was when she died. Here's another [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/Iteration110Cradle/comments/l5ddhb/how_did_emriss_silentborn_ascend_to_monarch/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) talking about it, and this user sums up why I'm leaning more on her being a Monarch when she originally died. >It does not **specifically** say she was a Herald when she was killed. It says she was a Herald when she created the Dreamway, and then it says she was later killed by a trio of rival Monarchs when she was trying to build a global portal network. There's no statement that she was *still* a Herald when that happened. In fact, I'd aruge the way it's phrased is a positive implication towards her being a Monarch at the time. *Rival* implies they're equal opponents, and it doesn't take three Monarchs to kill one Herald.
It might if your Herald has ten thousand remnants at once. She is referred to once as the remnant who became a monarch. It might have even been "Herald remnant."
Ah, thanks for the clarification, been a minute since my last reread. I wonder if part of her friendliness towards the team has to do with the fact that they're also kind of making up their own ways to advance, kind of like her own unconventional history.
She was a monarch prior to her death. She crafted the dreamway, but it was originally for sharing dreams, like creative writing, and was limited in scope. She later tried to expand this to house all knowledge and then she was assassinated. All we know is that this wasn't a weekend project and likely required her to be monarch to achieve such a feat
She was originally a Herald (might have already been a Monarch at her death) who crafted the Dreamway and then started lobbying and investing into a world-wide teleportation network. However, her main goal with this was the spread of knowledge, with an unstated intention (which the Monarchs likely were aware of) of spreading knowledge of the Hunger issue. This was what got her killed, but her remnants later merged and re-established her old personality/memories from memory tablets she had left behind, and at this point either ascended from Herald to Monarch, or re-established herself as a Monarch.
Someone following a life path primarily as a healer could be seen as 'controlling life' perhaps? We know that is more how others see you as well, see the sword sage battling others then asking how they saw him
Is there a pee icon?
I don't want to think about this or what you would have to do to get it
What about the ntr icon
Would probably fall under a more general body icon or similar, no? But if not then yeah there’s definitely a Pee Icon 😂😂
The way is powered by human sentience, so I suspect it's a multiversal recognition of someone being associated with a concept.
I think anything is possible as long as it’s for enough to your being and you connect to the way. It’s all about interpretation. That’s why there are concerts like Hunger and Void that do largely the same thing but with different flavors to them.
Disclaimer: This is purely my speculation, theorizing, and headcanon. That said, I think that just like how you have to resonate with and strongly embody a concept along with possessing a focused will to manifest an Icon… Icons only exist for concepts with strong enough and clear enough significance within the human _experience_ to resonate with human _sapience_ and be reflected in the Way. And, I think that to some level the Icons are just representative symbols for the authority they reflect. Which would mean that they are somewhat open to interpretation. The Broom Icon, for example… Brooms probably aren’t a strong or significant enough concept on their own to become an Icon, but it is a handy symbol for representing the concept of “cleaning up the world of its problems” or something like that. The Strength Icon and the Will Icon… I don’t think there’s a “Will Icon” per se, because I don’t think Will and Strength are opposites, and Will seems a tad vague to be an Icon on its own. But I do think, and I think this is what you’re getting at mentioning them together, there’s an Icon for _Spiritual_ Power (that covers or influences Will, among other things) to match the Strength Icon (the representation of _Physical_ Power). That said, Will Icon or Strength Icon would just be names. Across cultures there might be multiple Icons that share those, or other, names. Which could be kind of fun, a character or path that possessed multiple Icons that shared the same name across differing cultures, and had overlapping areas of authority. Keeping in mind though that multiple sources of Authority aren’t always better than one more thorough/developed source of Authority. Anyhow… Take it all with a grain of salt. It gets wonky when you start talking about the conceptual stuff. Fun, but wonky.
"You're working in the conceptual now. You have to let go of literal definitions." --Eithan in Bloodlines Thanks for the thoughts, interesting post!
Honestly, I would love it if Will just wrote a few theses from the perspective of scholars or sages in-universe debating the workings of Icons, authority, willpower, and the conceptual because you just _know_ that it’s heavily debated on Cradle.
Right, we know there are people who study it because Oz debated a bunch and manifested the Broom Icon right? I think you may be on to it, maybe the *person* lends the *Icon* some of its authority through their perception of the idea and their own power, will, and significance, like your example with the Broom. I get that Will doesn't want to nail himself into a web of super hard rules he has to check as he writes though, especially with Icons since they cross over between Willverse series.
I think the individual _definitely_ contextualizes the Icon. I mean, there has to be _some_ universality and central core to the concepts each Icon embodies but it does awfully seem like each person brings their own talents and affinities to their connection to their Icon(s). Case in point, spacial affinity seems to run in the Akura clan judging off of Malice and Charity’s affinity for it, but as far as we know Charity only possesses the Heart Icon (I could be wrong on that) and what does Heart have to do with spacial authority? Probably some sort of personal talent or connection Charity made when she pushed for the Icon. But another individual with the Heart Icon might not possess that same facility while still having other shared powers under the umbrella of “Heart.”
I believe your assessment is entirely correct but I am not perfectly certain. I do believe, though, that the Icons are at least partially the product of the sapient citizens of the Way and their concepts.
As a person advances in their understanding of their chosen icon, they gain greater control over the corresponding aspect of reality. For example, a person who has mastered the Strength Icon will have greater physical strength and be able to manipulate and control the strength of others. This mastery over a particular aspect of reality gives a person authority over that aspect. In the world of Cradle, those who have advanced far enough in their icon cultivation are granted titles such as Sage or Monarch, which indicate their authority over their chosen aspect of reality. Furthermore, those who have ascended to a higher realm of existence through their mastery of their icon are considered to be the most authoritative beings in the world of Cradle. These beings, known as Judges or Abidan, have near-omnipotent power and are responsible for maintaining the balance of the universe. Overall, icons play a significant role in establishing a hierarchy of authority in the world of Cradle, with those who have advanced further in their icon cultivation possessing greater power and authority over others. This is why in Reaper Ozriel was able to take a copy of his scythe from Daruman with ease and unmake it with equal easy. Authority over the labyrinth is another example. The more Lindon was related and embodied aspect of the labyrinth the more authority he gained over it and even more so, the more he gained over Shen. “Be gone!” While Heralds are beings that can also extert will power externally, they do so in a broader sense with less focus and tend to focus their will power internally in relation to their power and techniques. It is the inverse for Sages, they focus externally on reality and in a focal way that grants them superior will power over specific aspects.