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I do wish Eithan stayed around a bit more to fuck with the monarch’s (especially Shen) but I guess between the mad king and arrival of the other judges he was too distracted to engage in one of his favorite activities….gloating
He probably couldn't go around intimidating Monarchs for the same reason he couldn't tell Lindon how to fix Dross. Bound by the pact as soon as he Unveiled.
Didn't seem to stop that one Hound that showed up. Far more likely that the Judges just arrested him and went on their way. Ten minutes after he's arrested they've already sentenced him and sent him out on a mission, so it's not like he would have had time to go gloat.
Because if he did, there's approaching a 0% chance he wouldn't have Godfather'd Reigan Shen by putting a (normal) scythe in his bed before he left. Zero.
Kieran the Hound was acting in his capacity as Guarantor of the tournament, authorized as part of the recruitment effort. So I think he had the latitude in his personal interactions while fulfilling a duty. Ozriel did not have that once the veil was lifted.
Does the pact bind them as in they can’t use their power unless it’s within the rules of the pact or is it like guidelines and up to judges to actually enforce?
Also speaking of hounds, does anyone else feel like Makiel may end up being the real villain here
We don't know exactly how strict the pact is but we know most of the time Abidan are very hands off due to either the pact or threat of punishment from their superiors. We have seen a couple instances of circumventing Fate from Abidan. Mainly Ozriel with the Origin Shroud and the recruitment drive in which all the remaining Judges decided together to allow some deviation in individual iterations to help bolster their ranks against outside forces. So maybe with the agreement of all judges they can do what ever they want, but who knows?
A lot of people never got to be kids in Cradle, it's locked in an eternal war after all. Compared to almost everyone, Sha Miara had it pretty good. There's worse things than being granted ultimate power for no work whatsoever.
Also, ascension is not prison, it's unlimited freedom.
> ascension is not prison, it's unlimited freedom.
Northstrider and even a bit of what Eithan implies is that it isn't cut and dry. You become one of the Abidan you live inside their rules as well, and are they handing out brochures on what that entails to sages and heralds or is it still a great unknown? If I were a higher level sacred artist on Cradle I wouldn't be excited to go through the pain and slog of more advancement.
You don't need to join the Abidan. It's an entirely optional group. Not joining them doesn't automatically make you Vroshir either. You just won't have all the crutches given to people who sign up for their merry band. All that's really required is you follow the general laws they setup.
One could even claim that the Vroshir aren't necessarily a dangerous organization, just that there are powerful extremists at the top end willing to be terrorists.
Exactly. It's what makes them great antagonists. He would be very reasonable if he didn't have a Fiend inside of him, which are the true enemies of the Way.
One-hundo percent though lol
WW does a good job of not pushing a moral ideology on his characters so you can sympathize with the world destroyers because you can see the reasoning. If the view of the books took the MK's side I would still think they are amazing. As it is I prefer the reaper's plan, less death in it......
I guess it's in how you think of it. I'm sure the current gang would be thrilled to know they can get stronger and stronger almost indefinitely. And even as a Herald or a Sage, it's not sunshine and rainbows on Cradle. You can ascend and live a non militaristic life while still having access to an incredibly wide array of new magic systems and powers. If you stick on Cradle, you pretty much are constantly on the front lines or in reserve at best. Your only protection being a single lynchpin at Monarch - if you're lucky. Just look what happened to the gold dragon sages and heralds once their Monarch died. Or to the Jai clan once their Underlord died. Back to the wilds they went.
It's less that she's led a life of suffering and more that she's had to take on great burden at a very young age, far more than almost anyone out there, and she's not even allowed to express her emotions normally, because people will probably be endangered if she did.
She throws temper tantrums in front of Sha Relliar during the tournament, and it’s very obvious from his reaction that that is nothing new. In private at least she is allowed to drop the mask.
What makes you say that? Monarchs and sages don't have to tread carefully around their words. When they command the world to change it's a choice. Hence why commands via their icons are bolded in the text. If Sha Maria sat down with her Herald and talked through all the things that were annoying her it wouldn't cause the world to change.
His is a unique case where he was recognized by The Way itself due to his achievement and was probably politely forced into his role. I bet with hindsight he would've pushed back on joining the organization entirely but he signed that deal very early on, so there's not much he could do about it. Unless there's a way to leave the Pact, but we haven't really heard much about that.
He did join voluntarily initially though. So he wasn't *forced* until much later on.
I'd still argue probably most abidan are under such similar restrictions. On mutliple occasions it is shown they do not care about the moral character of their recruits. And it is implied they control them regardles. Between the eledari pact, and inferences made from that. To me it sounds like most abidan are in a similar position to ozriel in which they were forced to sign some sort of bad deal and are now stuck with it for eternity. The entire reason for the vroshir is probably to sush back against that lack of freedom specifically.
Joining the Abidan is fully a volunteer thing. It's like voluntary military service that lasts until you earn a retirement somehow. It's been noted that you totally can avoid joining them and there's no penalty. They just try to entice you with their help and power with ascending and getting stronger in the wider multiverse.
And likewise, if you don't know any better there's no reason not to sign up. All benefits little downsides for the regular folk if you're used to being in a sect and following orders and shit.
You can totally ascend without their help and without signing up afterwards. You just have to follow the general laws they have going like any other government, unless you want to get into trouble.
Ozriel is very much a unique case. It's a miscarriage of justice to force him to perform as executor for so long, no doubt about that. For your run of the mill ascendants, they would not be forced into service though.
Yes, she’s the real victim. Not the millions of innocents who’ll die if she stays where she is instead of wandering to a slightly different place and being perfectly fine there.
I mean, when was Sanctum attacked?
Even as the Mad King was cutting through to Cradle it's remarked that Sanctum is still safe and had *very* strong defenses protecting it. It was the non-ascended Iterations that were vulnerable, and Sanctum was only under threat if the Mad King decided to attack it at the cost of his own life. And even then, he's going after Judges, not some random Monarch-level nobody.
The war that happened due to a fake scythe and disappearance of Ozriel? Who's now back and destroyed the fake scythe?
The Abidan certainly lost many Iterations but one silver lining is they have far far less to defend now too. Plus they'll be eager for any new recruits. Do you think the Abidan will send new recruits into deep Vroshir territory to die?
Unless you think Ozriel is going to die and The Mad King survives, which seems insanely unlikely because Cradle is not Game of Thrones, the Abidan are probably the safest place to be right now. Even more than Cradle.
I have no particular dog in this fight. You asked a question, the person you asked didn't answer, and I thought I might clarify the logic. I do find it somewhat intriguing that Miara -- the only Monarch to ascend against her will -- isn't getting some sort of special concern.
Regardless, I don't think Daruman dying ends the war (and yes, of course that's the most likely option whether Suriel and/or Ozriel die as well). I could be wrong; maybe that's it and the Vroshir just pack it in after their pseudo-leader is gone (or maybe Oz gets mad enough to end the whole thing himself).
Even if the war _does_ end, Miara is ascending into a mind-boggling refugee crisis. While it's a great way for her to prove her worth to the Abidan, it isn't anyone's idea of a nice vacation.
We'll see. I don't think Miara is going to get a ton of focus in Waybound but I could see a line expressing what a bum deal she got. At least she has Aunty Emriss to hang with.
I mean, my reply was because that logic is flawed, not because I didn't think of it.
Daruman isn't any kind of leader in the Vroshir, they don't have any leaders, they're bandits. They saw he had a fake scythe and Ozriel was gone and saw an opportunity. Those are no longer true. How many Vroshir will be willing to risk facing Ozriel now? He has already taken steps in Dreadgod to scare them and break their "alliance".
As for refugees and rebuilding that is probably a lot of hard work, but very unlikely to be dangerous. No one said anything about it being a vacation, you brought that up. Her choices are get killed by Lindon or ascend. Honestly, Sha Miera could probably use that hard work to give her some perspective. Her life has been bizarre even by genius or Monarch standards.
I feel like there's a distinct lack of empathy in this response. I don't know how much she understands about the connection between the Monarchs and the Dreadgods but she didn't become a Monarch by choice and I doubt that a 12 year old would be comfortable with leaving behind everything she knows to ascend to a new world.
She definitely understands the connection. It's impossible for monarchs not to. Plus she isn't 12 anymore she's around the same age a Lindon and the Gang now and they're conscious enough to understands that they can't stay in cradle and be monarchs and they can't let others do so either since doing so makes them directly responsible so the deaths of millions.
I agree that it specifically sucks for her more than for the other Monarchs but she still needs to take responsibility for the power she wields, regardless of if she wanted it or not.
S1 tells Lindon that all monarchs are aware of what their staying in Cradle does as every day they fight the natural order to stay in Cradle. Miara may not have had a choice in becoming a monarch but she is very much aware of what monarchs in Cradle is doing to the world.
Like I said, I'm not debating whether it's worth it or not. I'm more pointing out how rough that is for this kid. Not many people seem to be talking about it.
Yeah that’s true. It is pretty hard on her. Not to mention she gets to have some of her mother’s memories while also not having time to grieve plus being thrust into such an important leadership role.
But honestly, ascension will be the best thing for her. Time to grow and become her own person with the only responsibility being for herself.
Eh… my empathy doesn’t extend that far. While all of this was thrust on her and she didn’t ask for it or work for it, she still took the knowledge that they’re responsible for millions of deaths just to remain in power. If she was purely innocent, she’d have chosen to ascend (even taking her people with her) rather than staying and perpetuating the cycle.
The system is pretty heavily set up so that one monarch can't ascend. It's kind of an all or nothing. We saw what happens when one faction suddenly loses a monarch, pure butchery. And it happened a second time off screen to the Aurelius family.
Saying a monarch can suddenly take millions or more people and evacuate them from Cradle is also unlikely. The logistics, the power required for that level of transport, and even the effect on the connection to the way losing that many people might have all seem like very reasonable limitations to that idea.
I'm hoping that because she's the youngest / least experienced monarch she'll agree to ascend without fighting it. And if it comes down to it, she'll join team Emriss and help the gang purge hunger madra rather than fight it. I'd be really disappointed if she decides to go camp kitty instead.
I mean, how rough really *is* it, though?
I'd argue that actually staying and being a Monarch would be worse for her than just ascending. Hell, if that transfer-of-skills thing isn't fatal I'd have dumped all that power on her Herald uncle and ascended immediately.
She has no idea what she's doing and is kinda just mulling along. It's pretty clear when she gets sheltered from Shen by Emriss... basically she's contending with the designs of other Monarchs, trying to run a kingdom and also fielding Dreadgod attacks with no one to really offer guidance on what a Monarch does.
Now to be fair, she \*does\* have the Sha family spirit thing to assist but that's still a lot in my opinion.
I feel like there's a distinct lack of empathy in this response. I don't know how much she understands about the connection between the Monarchs and the Dreadgods but she didn't become a Monarch by choice and I doubt that a 12 year old would be comfortable with leaving behind everything she knows to ascend to a new world.
EDIT: Oop, this was a duplicate send, Reddit decided to be wonky.
There’s a distinct lack of empathy in valuing the lives of millions over one person being perfectly fine in one place as opposed to another place?
I’m not sure you know what empathy means. Why is her maybe being a bit uncomfortable so much worse than all those people being dead?
Yeah, you're speaking from a purely utilitarian perspective here. I'm not saying that I don't get that. In the end, Miara ascending is probably the best thing she can do for the most people. But that doesn't mean that she's not being forced to leave behind her family and is completely alone when she ascends, and will likely find herself to be the weakest where she's about to go. Heck, in Dreadgod, it's clear that she's well out of her depth in *Cradle*. She's the weakest Monarch.
(Oh and also **there's a cosmic war going on which the Abidan are currently losing badly**, which she doesn't know about. It's hardly safe where she's going.) If you can't empathise with how rough that must be for a kid, then yeah, I'd say that's a lack of empathy for a 12 year old child.
Ok. So, she gets killed in the war. Are you her life is more important than the tens of thousands of other 12 year olds on Cradle who’d be killed by Dreadgods if she stayed, not even worrying about the rest of the people?
Has it? I was under the impression that they had only held back the latest incursion of Vroshir and pushed Dharuman back once.
So my assumption was that the war was still ongoing and all we saw was a single victory on a single front.
> Has it? I was under the impression that they had only held back the latest incursion of Vroshir and pushed Dharuman back once.
Yes, it one hundred percent has ended. You forgot the fact that the main weapon Daruman was using was taken by Eithan and destroyed. Without that they aren't nearly as big a threat. If they were, why didn't they do this before he got the fake scythe?
Also, with Ozriel back they're terrified of him. Unless you believe he'll die, which simply due to the literary aspect he won't. Cradle isn't Game of Thrones, Suriel might die, but no way Ozriel is going to die.
Why is someone having to move because they want to build a freeway where their house is not worth sympathy? The girl didn't advance and then refuse to ascend like all the other monarchs who love being the big fish in a small pond. She just got it tossed to her, and now hardly gets to live a life on Cradle.
Someone at a sage or herald level who's close to advancing to monarch is about the level you learn about the hunger madra according to shen or malice. That doesn't happen after a unfulfilled life.
Right.
That’s Choice A.
Choice B is millions of people being slaughtered by Dreadgods because she stays.
I’m saying Choice A is better than Choice B. You’re saying I’m wrong. Explain the moral equivalence between the two and why Choice B would be preferable.
I mean that was what the Abidan were doing with Ozriel (just on a cosmic scale, reap singular worlds to stop them from infecting the larger wayverse) and people vastly side with him. People will always value those they see and who they like more.
And nobody is disagreeing with that. It’s just that the fact it sucks is irrelevant when compared to the alternative. All the other people are just as important as she is.
You're arguing a point literally nobody is making. Nobody is saying "Aw, she didn't ask for this, she shouldn't have to ascend. Let the others die." Literally nobody.
lol why is it so hard to process that for some reason? As if you can't feel sad for someone who has to do something shitty, and still think they have to do the shitty thing.
How so?
That’s what happens when a Monarch stays. It’s literally the entire plot of the last book. By saying you want Miara to stay, you’re saying that her staying is better than her going, so that this is better than her potential slight discomfort.
Why exactly is it that you think Lindon wants to make her leave?
> By saying you want Miara to stay
Alright bro, you keep on fighting them shadow people I'm just gonna go over here and have a discussion with people who don't weirdly jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth.
She really gets the shorter end of the stick on the entire story huh, from basically getting sat down by Eithan and will prob get it done again on Waybound.
Most of the 'good' Monarchs are victims. It's easy for something as strong as Ozriel to say the system is broken because he's one of the few people that legitimately wields enough power to do something about. For normal run of mill Monarchs the system is what ensures their descendants aren't overrun by enemies.
The system isn't perfect but unless you have the power to overpower 7 other monarchs it's good enough to establish a level of security and safety for your loved ones and followers.
Right. The only reason Eithan is able to make these moves is because of how much he knows and how capable he is. It's natural for the Monarchs to keep away from touching the potentially volatile dreadgods and labyrinth situation and strive for an equilibrium.
Is it good? No. Is it understandable? Yes.
Is it good compared to what? The United States is probably as good a government as we've ever had. Objectively speaking while better than anything else that came before but ultimately it's probably objectively pretty bad compared to some hypothetical theoretical government can be envisioned by some 4th dimensional entity. Pretty much most of the criticisms Ethan had with Cradle can be applied to us today except it's through capitalism instead of raw power. In the biggest pandemic in modern history the rich got richer and everyone else got poorer. Sounds a lot like Ethan disliking how Monarchs hoard power when it could be given to those who need it most. Should we tear down the USA government and start over? For discussion insert whatever modern government you think is the best.
It's easy for us to see the flaws of a fictional government but some one from Cradle would be able to see the flaws in ours just as easily. We're just used to our everyday hypocrisies so we accept them more readily.
This is the Nirvana fallacy. Perfect is always the enemy of good. For most of us, good is good enough. Everything always has flaws and there's always an argument to tear it down and start over. But you'll never get it perfect anyway so you can tear down that new thing too.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that.
The only two "good" Monarchs we see are Emriss and the 8ME. Emriss because she's contributing something like 1/8th of the Hunger aura that shows up in Cradle is but is single-handedly controlling something like 1/4 of the problem. She's a net benefit, and clearly working the problem.
And the 8ME members don't contribute to the problem at all, though I wonder if they might in the instants they're focusing all their power and acting as a Monarch. Either way, the others are doing it 24/7 for such selfless reasons as:
• I don't want to be near the bottom of the food chain - Northstrider
• Maybe my people would be safer and happier if I ascended, but they're already relatively safe and happy and I'd have to give up all my stuff - Shen
• Fuck you - Sesh
• My mom told me to - Sha Miara
• Fuck that dragon - Malice
• And fuck you too now that he's gone - also Malice
Well, thus far, as someone who had the mantle of Monarch foisted onto her, I don't begrudge Sha Miara's decision to stay. But the strength of her character will be determined by the choices she makes in Waybound. My gut tells me that she will choose to ascend after making preparations for her clan.
Malice, Sha Miara and Northstrider ultimately stay to protect their faction and other allied factions. But to do so they endanger Cradle as a whole. This is like Singer's Drowning Child thought experiment. We all do what we can to take care of our families and provide some level of comfort. But ultimately any amount of excess luxury comes at a steep price. If you take out your family to Chipotle to splurge a little and spend $100 you are tacitly declaring that a single meal for your family is preferable to feeding 6 starving children for a month.
Ultimately that's the choice Northstrider, Malice and Sha Miara make. They will allow their allies and loved ones to flourish even if that means other people elsewhere have to suffer. We're honestly no better than they are. We're historically wealthy. We throw away things other people in the world are literally dying to have.
Well, she has had a life of total privilege, albeit shorter than most monarchs, but given her circumstances, she was never going to really have a normal or full childhood. She would still be a monarch at 12, regardless of Lindon and Co blowing it all up.
Sure, she doesn't get to live hundreds of years wielding massive power, but the whole system is a trap, as shown by the other monarchs. They justify their continued existences because of the dreadgods and maintaining balance with the other monarchs.
You could say that her being forced to ascend would be a fresh start without any of the political obligations of being a monarch. In a way, that would be like getting a chance at living a "normal" life as an actual teenager.
Minor nitpick, but given the amount of emphasis people are putting on it in this thread, it feels worth mentioning that she's not twelve. She was described as fifteen or sixteen as of Wintersteel. Also I expect she is quite aware of the relationship between Monarchs and hunger madra, given that she appears to have the collective experiences of her ancestor monarchs to draw upon. Not to mention that it's stated that it is impossible for a Monarch not to know, as it takes active resistance not to ascend.
>Minor nitpick, but given the amount of emphasis people are putting on it in this thread, it feels worth mentioning that she's not twelve. She was described as fifteen or sixteen as of Wintersteel.
That's fair. She was 12 when she inherited the mantle of Monarch, which was around the start of the series. You're probably right in that she knows the connection, but I don't really blame her for not ascending, when the likes of Malice, Shen and Northstrider who should all know better, also choose not to do so.
Yeah i mean she is consistently shown to be in over her head and generally sympathetic. If i had to guess i think she will willingly ascend as long as lindon and co. can promise that her people will be kept safe.
I agree with you to some extent, but i also think ascension could be great for her. She is bored and lonely. She is a kid and she answers to virtually no one. If she were to ascend, there's a chance she may actually find friends and can fight.
Honestly, I feel bad for anyone who inherited the monarch power in the Sha line
It's a small moment but when Sha Miara is talking with Emriss her power is shouting at her that Emriss can be trusted, I may be looking into it too much but it could mean that she is a slave to the instincts of her predecessors
If the previous monarchs really were a slave to their power that makes Sha Miara's situation even worse, because at least the previous monarchs would presumably have been warned about this aspect but she wasn't, she would've been told that it's best for the family and forced to accept.
>If the previous monarchs really were a slave to their power that makes Sha Miara's situation even worse, because at least the previous monarchs would presumably have been warned about this aspect but she wasn't, she would've been told that it's best for the family and forced to accept.
Yeah. She's a kid strapped to a rocket. Barely had an opportunity to form her own identity before she gained the Avatar Spirit.
You're assuming the gang succeeds. I've been having a bit of anxiety about that time Will said plot armor stops protecting the main characters in the final book.
In Cradle, as in the real world, there are many "real victims" because of how lots of things are wrong with the world. I suppose Sha Miara is one as well, in some ways, less so in others. I think ascending will probably be... good...? for her? Ascension isn't that terrible, probably she'd be able to take some time off to relax.
I would not be surprised if she were the only monarch who could avoid ascending if she chose. We don't know the full process and capability of the Heaven's Wish technique. It's possible she could give up her authority while retaining her Herald's body or give up her Herald's body while retaining her Sage icons.
The previous uses of Heaven's Wish appear to have been near total transfer of power and authority, but do we know that it would have to be that way?
No. Fuck the privileged ojou-sama. If you think about it, the Sha family is the MOST responsible for the hunger problem, because they have been raising Monarchs for millennia.
S1 tells Lindon that monarchs know what staying does to Cradle. Monarchs have to fight the natural order to stay. On that account, I do not feel bad for forcing her ascension.
That she is forced to take up the monarch role for the 9CC at such a young age and missing out a childhood I do feel bad for. But the dice roll for many in Cradle is far worse than a pampered princess having to step up before her time. And she had plenty family of support, apparently as opposed to doing it solo. When I look at her circumstances and compare that to Lindon's or Yerin's, she was given everything that they fought tooth and nail for. It is hard to drum up a lot of sympathy for her situation
I don't think she's a victim. She's part of an ancient lineage of Monarchs who refuse to ascend. Even before the Dreadgods, hunger was a problem
She has a chance to ascend and finally let Cradle rest from the tides of Dreadbeasts that have plagued it for time immemorial
I can kinda agree here with a bit more though.... Being the kid of a monarch they wouldn't really get a childhood regardless of parental ascension, death, or anything similar.
> She didn't really do anything to deserve it too.
Except that she did.
Like, she doesn't seem to be actively malicious, and you can definitely make an argument for her immaturity and lack of political training.
But ultimately she's causing Hunger aura and thereby empowering the Dreadgods. And she's actively resisting ascension. *And* it was said that it would be impossible for a Monarch *not* to understand the problem... which makes me think we're probably going to get a closer look at the mechanics in Waybound.
It sucks she never got to really be a kid, but that's also not an excuse to stay and contribute to the Dreadgod problem. She can go be a kid in Sanctum where she'll be lower on the relative power scale.
When grown men and women with millennia of experience seem to be refusing to ascend, I don't expect a kid who's just been made Monarch to have the nerve and mindset to ascend. Besides, she's probably contending with some sort of familial duty imprinted on the Heaven's Wish technique to stay and be with the clan. Also dealing with familial expectations as a kid. So yeah, she chose to stay but it's not as incriminating to me as, say, the likes of Northstrider, Malice or Shen.
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And then she gets to do one fun thing. It gets ruined by someone even stronger in an even bigger disguise.
There's always a bigger smurf.
I do wish Eithan stayed around a bit more to fuck with the monarch’s (especially Shen) but I guess between the mad king and arrival of the other judges he was too distracted to engage in one of his favorite activities….gloating
He probably couldn't go around intimidating Monarchs for the same reason he couldn't tell Lindon how to fix Dross. Bound by the pact as soon as he Unveiled.
Didn't seem to stop that one Hound that showed up. Far more likely that the Judges just arrested him and went on their way. Ten minutes after he's arrested they've already sentenced him and sent him out on a mission, so it's not like he would have had time to go gloat. Because if he did, there's approaching a 0% chance he wouldn't have Godfather'd Reigan Shen by putting a (normal) scythe in his bed before he left. Zero.
Kieran the Hound was acting in his capacity as Guarantor of the tournament, authorized as part of the recruitment effort. So I think he had the latitude in his personal interactions while fulfilling a duty. Ozriel did not have that once the veil was lifted.
Does the pact bind them as in they can’t use their power unless it’s within the rules of the pact or is it like guidelines and up to judges to actually enforce? Also speaking of hounds, does anyone else feel like Makiel may end up being the real villain here
We don't know exactly how strict the pact is but we know most of the time Abidan are very hands off due to either the pact or threat of punishment from their superiors. We have seen a couple instances of circumventing Fate from Abidan. Mainly Ozriel with the Origin Shroud and the recruitment drive in which all the remaining Judges decided together to allow some deviation in individual iterations to help bolster their ranks against outside forces. So maybe with the agreement of all judges they can do what ever they want, but who knows?
Had this exact thought
Welcome to Cradle, where there's always a bigger fish.
How did I miss *that* comparison?
A lot of people never got to be kids in Cradle, it's locked in an eternal war after all. Compared to almost everyone, Sha Miara had it pretty good. There's worse things than being granted ultimate power for no work whatsoever. Also, ascension is not prison, it's unlimited freedom.
> ascension is not prison, it's unlimited freedom. Northstrider and even a bit of what Eithan implies is that it isn't cut and dry. You become one of the Abidan you live inside their rules as well, and are they handing out brochures on what that entails to sages and heralds or is it still a great unknown? If I were a higher level sacred artist on Cradle I wouldn't be excited to go through the pain and slog of more advancement.
You don't need to join the Abidan. It's an entirely optional group. Not joining them doesn't automatically make you Vroshir either. You just won't have all the crutches given to people who sign up for their merry band. All that's really required is you follow the general laws they setup.
[удалено]
One could even claim that the Vroshir aren't necessarily a dangerous organization, just that there are powerful extremists at the top end willing to be terrorists.
The scariest part is how a part of me resonates with the mad king’s ideology and his history with the Abidan. Can’t help but feel bad for the guy
Exactly. It's what makes them great antagonists. He would be very reasonable if he didn't have a Fiend inside of him, which are the true enemies of the Way.
One-hundo percent though lol WW does a good job of not pushing a moral ideology on his characters so you can sympathize with the world destroyers because you can see the reasoning. If the view of the books took the MK's side I would still think they are amazing. As it is I prefer the reaper's plan, less death in it......
I guess it's in how you think of it. I'm sure the current gang would be thrilled to know they can get stronger and stronger almost indefinitely. And even as a Herald or a Sage, it's not sunshine and rainbows on Cradle. You can ascend and live a non militaristic life while still having access to an incredibly wide array of new magic systems and powers. If you stick on Cradle, you pretty much are constantly on the front lines or in reserve at best. Your only protection being a single lynchpin at Monarch - if you're lucky. Just look what happened to the gold dragon sages and heralds once their Monarch died. Or to the Jai clan once their Underlord died. Back to the wilds they went.
Then just ascend to a higher world where Monarch’s aren’t literally breaking the world with their presence and chill out.
It's less that she's led a life of suffering and more that she's had to take on great burden at a very young age, far more than almost anyone out there, and she's not even allowed to express her emotions normally, because people will probably be endangered if she did.
Lindon would have been immediately executed if he had expressed his emotions honestly as a child, and he had it better than many.
Yes, but he can at least vent in private. She doesn't even get that, because the world will warp to her will.
She throws temper tantrums in front of Sha Relliar during the tournament, and it’s very obvious from his reaction that that is nothing new. In private at least she is allowed to drop the mask.
What makes you say that? Monarchs and sages don't have to tread carefully around their words. When they command the world to change it's a choice. Hence why commands via their icons are bolded in the text. If Sha Maria sat down with her Herald and talked through all the things that were annoying her it wouldn't cause the world to change.
Are you sure? I would argue Ozriel being forced into his duties had the opposite of freedom.
His is a unique case where he was recognized by The Way itself due to his achievement and was probably politely forced into his role. I bet with hindsight he would've pushed back on joining the organization entirely but he signed that deal very early on, so there's not much he could do about it. Unless there's a way to leave the Pact, but we haven't really heard much about that. He did join voluntarily initially though. So he wasn't *forced* until much later on.
I'd still argue probably most abidan are under such similar restrictions. On mutliple occasions it is shown they do not care about the moral character of their recruits. And it is implied they control them regardles. Between the eledari pact, and inferences made from that. To me it sounds like most abidan are in a similar position to ozriel in which they were forced to sign some sort of bad deal and are now stuck with it for eternity. The entire reason for the vroshir is probably to sush back against that lack of freedom specifically.
Joining the Abidan is fully a volunteer thing. It's like voluntary military service that lasts until you earn a retirement somehow. It's been noted that you totally can avoid joining them and there's no penalty. They just try to entice you with their help and power with ascending and getting stronger in the wider multiverse. And likewise, if you don't know any better there's no reason not to sign up. All benefits little downsides for the regular folk if you're used to being in a sect and following orders and shit. You can totally ascend without their help and without signing up afterwards. You just have to follow the general laws they have going like any other government, unless you want to get into trouble.
Ozriel is very much a unique case. It's a miscarriage of justice to force him to perform as executor for so long, no doubt about that. For your run of the mill ascendants, they would not be forced into service though.
He also spent some time wondering Sanctum before going the the Abidan out of free will and boredom. Joining the Abidan isn't mandatory.
He chose to join the Abidan.
Ascension might be good for her. On Cradle she's responsible for an entire empire. With the Abiddan she'd be just an unusually powerful child.
Yes, she’s the real victim. Not the millions of innocents who’ll die if she stays where she is instead of wandering to a slightly different place and being perfectly fine there.
I agreed with you until you said she would be perfectly fine after ascending, i sincerely doubt the heavens would be "perfectly fine"
She doesn't have to join the abadon. She can just chill out in Sanctum as a pacifist monk like Osmanthus did. Sanctum is very safe.
...did we read the same book series??
I mean, when was Sanctum attacked? Even as the Mad King was cutting through to Cradle it's remarked that Sanctum is still safe and had *very* strong defenses protecting it. It was the non-ascended Iterations that were vulnerable, and Sanctum was only under threat if the Mad King decided to attack it at the cost of his own life. And even then, he's going after Judges, not some random Monarch-level nobody.
> i sincerely doubt the heavens would be "perfectly fine" Can you explain why?
Massive interdimensional war and/or rebuilding effort? It doesn't seem like a particularly great place right now.
The war that happened due to a fake scythe and disappearance of Ozriel? Who's now back and destroyed the fake scythe? The Abidan certainly lost many Iterations but one silver lining is they have far far less to defend now too. Plus they'll be eager for any new recruits. Do you think the Abidan will send new recruits into deep Vroshir territory to die? Unless you think Ozriel is going to die and The Mad King survives, which seems insanely unlikely because Cradle is not Game of Thrones, the Abidan are probably the safest place to be right now. Even more than Cradle.
I have no particular dog in this fight. You asked a question, the person you asked didn't answer, and I thought I might clarify the logic. I do find it somewhat intriguing that Miara -- the only Monarch to ascend against her will -- isn't getting some sort of special concern. Regardless, I don't think Daruman dying ends the war (and yes, of course that's the most likely option whether Suriel and/or Ozriel die as well). I could be wrong; maybe that's it and the Vroshir just pack it in after their pseudo-leader is gone (or maybe Oz gets mad enough to end the whole thing himself). Even if the war _does_ end, Miara is ascending into a mind-boggling refugee crisis. While it's a great way for her to prove her worth to the Abidan, it isn't anyone's idea of a nice vacation. We'll see. I don't think Miara is going to get a ton of focus in Waybound but I could see a line expressing what a bum deal she got. At least she has Aunty Emriss to hang with.
I mean, my reply was because that logic is flawed, not because I didn't think of it. Daruman isn't any kind of leader in the Vroshir, they don't have any leaders, they're bandits. They saw he had a fake scythe and Ozriel was gone and saw an opportunity. Those are no longer true. How many Vroshir will be willing to risk facing Ozriel now? He has already taken steps in Dreadgod to scare them and break their "alliance". As for refugees and rebuilding that is probably a lot of hard work, but very unlikely to be dangerous. No one said anything about it being a vacation, you brought that up. Her choices are get killed by Lindon or ascend. Honestly, Sha Miera could probably use that hard work to give her some perspective. Her life has been bizarre even by genius or Monarch standards.
I feel like there's a distinct lack of empathy in this response. I don't know how much she understands about the connection between the Monarchs and the Dreadgods but she didn't become a Monarch by choice and I doubt that a 12 year old would be comfortable with leaving behind everything she knows to ascend to a new world.
She definitely understands the connection. It's impossible for monarchs not to. Plus she isn't 12 anymore she's around the same age a Lindon and the Gang now and they're conscious enough to understands that they can't stay in cradle and be monarchs and they can't let others do so either since doing so makes them directly responsible so the deaths of millions. I agree that it specifically sucks for her more than for the other Monarchs but she still needs to take responsibility for the power she wields, regardless of if she wanted it or not.
I agree with that. With great power comes a heavy duty, so on so forth.
S1 tells Lindon that all monarchs are aware of what their staying in Cradle does as every day they fight the natural order to stay in Cradle. Miara may not have had a choice in becoming a monarch but she is very much aware of what monarchs in Cradle is doing to the world.
If one teenager must ascend or die to protect billions over years of dreadgod rampages… worth it.
Like I said, I'm not debating whether it's worth it or not. I'm more pointing out how rough that is for this kid. Not many people seem to be talking about it.
Yeah that’s true. It is pretty hard on her. Not to mention she gets to have some of her mother’s memories while also not having time to grieve plus being thrust into such an important leadership role. But honestly, ascension will be the best thing for her. Time to grow and become her own person with the only responsibility being for herself.
Hopefully it helps. I'm hoping that she joins the crew and that she'll be like the little sister of the group.
Eh… my empathy doesn’t extend that far. While all of this was thrust on her and she didn’t ask for it or work for it, she still took the knowledge that they’re responsible for millions of deaths just to remain in power. If she was purely innocent, she’d have chosen to ascend (even taking her people with her) rather than staying and perpetuating the cycle.
The system is pretty heavily set up so that one monarch can't ascend. It's kind of an all or nothing. We saw what happens when one faction suddenly loses a monarch, pure butchery. And it happened a second time off screen to the Aurelius family. Saying a monarch can suddenly take millions or more people and evacuate them from Cradle is also unlikely. The logistics, the power required for that level of transport, and even the effect on the connection to the way losing that many people might have all seem like very reasonable limitations to that idea.
Hm, well as the youngest and least experienced Monarch, I'm not surprised that she just sort of went with what all the others expected of her.
I'm hoping that because she's the youngest / least experienced monarch she'll agree to ascend without fighting it. And if it comes down to it, she'll join team Emriss and help the gang purge hunger madra rather than fight it. I'd be really disappointed if she decides to go camp kitty instead.
I mean, how rough really *is* it, though? I'd argue that actually staying and being a Monarch would be worse for her than just ascending. Hell, if that transfer-of-skills thing isn't fatal I'd have dumped all that power on her Herald uncle and ascended immediately.
She has no idea what she's doing and is kinda just mulling along. It's pretty clear when she gets sheltered from Shen by Emriss... basically she's contending with the designs of other Monarchs, trying to run a kingdom and also fielding Dreadgod attacks with no one to really offer guidance on what a Monarch does. Now to be fair, she \*does\* have the Sha family spirit thing to assist but that's still a lot in my opinion.
I feel like there's a distinct lack of empathy in this response. I don't know how much she understands about the connection between the Monarchs and the Dreadgods but she didn't become a Monarch by choice and I doubt that a 12 year old would be comfortable with leaving behind everything she knows to ascend to a new world. EDIT: Oop, this was a duplicate send, Reddit decided to be wonky.
There’s a distinct lack of empathy in valuing the lives of millions over one person being perfectly fine in one place as opposed to another place? I’m not sure you know what empathy means. Why is her maybe being a bit uncomfortable so much worse than all those people being dead?
Yeah, you're speaking from a purely utilitarian perspective here. I'm not saying that I don't get that. In the end, Miara ascending is probably the best thing she can do for the most people. But that doesn't mean that she's not being forced to leave behind her family and is completely alone when she ascends, and will likely find herself to be the weakest where she's about to go. Heck, in Dreadgod, it's clear that she's well out of her depth in *Cradle*. She's the weakest Monarch. (Oh and also **there's a cosmic war going on which the Abidan are currently losing badly**, which she doesn't know about. It's hardly safe where she's going.) If you can't empathise with how rough that must be for a kid, then yeah, I'd say that's a lack of empathy for a 12 year old child.
The war has ended.
Dreadgod ends with Suriel and Eithan getting cornered by the mad king, them dying would start it up again and there wouldn't be anyone to stop him.
Ok. So, she gets killed in the war. Are you her life is more important than the tens of thousands of other 12 year olds on Cradle who’d be killed by Dreadgods if she stayed, not even worrying about the rest of the people?
Has it? I was under the impression that they had only held back the latest incursion of Vroshir and pushed Dharuman back once. So my assumption was that the war was still ongoing and all we saw was a single victory on a single front.
> Has it? I was under the impression that they had only held back the latest incursion of Vroshir and pushed Dharuman back once. Yes, it one hundred percent has ended. You forgot the fact that the main weapon Daruman was using was taken by Eithan and destroyed. Without that they aren't nearly as big a threat. If they were, why didn't they do this before he got the fake scythe? Also, with Ozriel back they're terrified of him. Unless you believe he'll die, which simply due to the literary aspect he won't. Cradle isn't Game of Thrones, Suriel might die, but no way Ozriel is going to die.
Why is someone having to move because they want to build a freeway where their house is not worth sympathy? The girl didn't advance and then refuse to ascend like all the other monarchs who love being the big fish in a small pond. She just got it tossed to her, and now hardly gets to live a life on Cradle. Someone at a sage or herald level who's close to advancing to monarch is about the level you learn about the hunger madra according to shen or malice. That doesn't happen after a unfulfilled life.
Right. That’s Choice A. Choice B is millions of people being slaughtered by Dreadgods because she stays. I’m saying Choice A is better than Choice B. You’re saying I’m wrong. Explain the moral equivalence between the two and why Choice B would be preferable.
I mean that was what the Abidan were doing with Ozriel (just on a cosmic scale, reap singular worlds to stop them from infecting the larger wayverse) and people vastly side with him. People will always value those they see and who they like more.
No one is saying that choice a isn't better than choice b. All they're saying is that choice a sucks for Miara.
And nobody is disagreeing with that. It’s just that the fact it sucks is irrelevant when compared to the alternative. All the other people are just as important as she is.
You're arguing a point literally nobody is making. Nobody is saying "Aw, she didn't ask for this, she shouldn't have to ascend. Let the others die." Literally nobody.
lol why is it so hard to process that for some reason? As if you can't feel sad for someone who has to do something shitty, and still think they have to do the shitty thing.
> Explain the moral equivalence between the two and why Choice B would be preferable. No one said those things.
How so? That’s what happens when a Monarch stays. It’s literally the entire plot of the last book. By saying you want Miara to stay, you’re saying that her staying is better than her going, so that this is better than her potential slight discomfort. Why exactly is it that you think Lindon wants to make her leave?
> By saying you want Miara to stay Alright bro, you keep on fighting them shadow people I'm just gonna go over here and have a discussion with people who don't weirdly jump to conclusions and put words in my mouth.
Her power is a inheritence, so there could possibly be a way for her to relinquish her cultivation as a monarch.
Yeah, that would be the best option imo.
Or Lindon could end up just taking it.
She really gets the shorter end of the stick on the entire story huh, from basically getting sat down by Eithan and will prob get it done again on Waybound.
Most of the 'good' Monarchs are victims. It's easy for something as strong as Ozriel to say the system is broken because he's one of the few people that legitimately wields enough power to do something about. For normal run of mill Monarchs the system is what ensures their descendants aren't overrun by enemies. The system isn't perfect but unless you have the power to overpower 7 other monarchs it's good enough to establish a level of security and safety for your loved ones and followers.
Right. The only reason Eithan is able to make these moves is because of how much he knows and how capable he is. It's natural for the Monarchs to keep away from touching the potentially volatile dreadgods and labyrinth situation and strive for an equilibrium. Is it good? No. Is it understandable? Yes.
Is it good compared to what? The United States is probably as good a government as we've ever had. Objectively speaking while better than anything else that came before but ultimately it's probably objectively pretty bad compared to some hypothetical theoretical government can be envisioned by some 4th dimensional entity. Pretty much most of the criticisms Ethan had with Cradle can be applied to us today except it's through capitalism instead of raw power. In the biggest pandemic in modern history the rich got richer and everyone else got poorer. Sounds a lot like Ethan disliking how Monarchs hoard power when it could be given to those who need it most. Should we tear down the USA government and start over? For discussion insert whatever modern government you think is the best. It's easy for us to see the flaws of a fictional government but some one from Cradle would be able to see the flaws in ours just as easily. We're just used to our everyday hypocrisies so we accept them more readily. This is the Nirvana fallacy. Perfect is always the enemy of good. For most of us, good is good enough. Everything always has flaws and there's always an argument to tear it down and start over. But you'll never get it perfect anyway so you can tear down that new thing too.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. The only two "good" Monarchs we see are Emriss and the 8ME. Emriss because she's contributing something like 1/8th of the Hunger aura that shows up in Cradle is but is single-handedly controlling something like 1/4 of the problem. She's a net benefit, and clearly working the problem. And the 8ME members don't contribute to the problem at all, though I wonder if they might in the instants they're focusing all their power and acting as a Monarch. Either way, the others are doing it 24/7 for such selfless reasons as: • I don't want to be near the bottom of the food chain - Northstrider • Maybe my people would be safer and happier if I ascended, but they're already relatively safe and happy and I'd have to give up all my stuff - Shen • Fuck you - Sesh • My mom told me to - Sha Miara • Fuck that dragon - Malice • And fuck you too now that he's gone - also Malice
Well, thus far, as someone who had the mantle of Monarch foisted onto her, I don't begrudge Sha Miara's decision to stay. But the strength of her character will be determined by the choices she makes in Waybound. My gut tells me that she will choose to ascend after making preparations for her clan.
Malice, Sha Miara and Northstrider ultimately stay to protect their faction and other allied factions. But to do so they endanger Cradle as a whole. This is like Singer's Drowning Child thought experiment. We all do what we can to take care of our families and provide some level of comfort. But ultimately any amount of excess luxury comes at a steep price. If you take out your family to Chipotle to splurge a little and spend $100 you are tacitly declaring that a single meal for your family is preferable to feeding 6 starving children for a month. Ultimately that's the choice Northstrider, Malice and Sha Miara make. They will allow their allies and loved ones to flourish even if that means other people elsewhere have to suffer. We're honestly no better than they are. We're historically wealthy. We throw away things other people in the world are literally dying to have.
Well, she has had a life of total privilege, albeit shorter than most monarchs, but given her circumstances, she was never going to really have a normal or full childhood. She would still be a monarch at 12, regardless of Lindon and Co blowing it all up. Sure, she doesn't get to live hundreds of years wielding massive power, but the whole system is a trap, as shown by the other monarchs. They justify their continued existences because of the dreadgods and maintaining balance with the other monarchs. You could say that her being forced to ascend would be a fresh start without any of the political obligations of being a monarch. In a way, that would be like getting a chance at living a "normal" life as an actual teenager.
That's probably the most positive way of looking at it, yeah.
Minor nitpick, but given the amount of emphasis people are putting on it in this thread, it feels worth mentioning that she's not twelve. She was described as fifteen or sixteen as of Wintersteel. Also I expect she is quite aware of the relationship between Monarchs and hunger madra, given that she appears to have the collective experiences of her ancestor monarchs to draw upon. Not to mention that it's stated that it is impossible for a Monarch not to know, as it takes active resistance not to ascend.
>Minor nitpick, but given the amount of emphasis people are putting on it in this thread, it feels worth mentioning that she's not twelve. She was described as fifteen or sixteen as of Wintersteel. That's fair. She was 12 when she inherited the mantle of Monarch, which was around the start of the series. You're probably right in that she knows the connection, but I don't really blame her for not ascending, when the likes of Malice, Shen and Northstrider who should all know better, also choose not to do so.
Yeah i mean she is consistently shown to be in over her head and generally sympathetic. If i had to guess i think she will willingly ascend as long as lindon and co. can promise that her people will be kept safe.
I agree with you to some extent, but i also think ascension could be great for her. She is bored and lonely. She is a kid and she answers to virtually no one. If she were to ascend, there's a chance she may actually find friends and can fight.
Yeah, you make a good point. This might be the thing she needs but it's a rough hand to be dealt. Could definitely be worse though, haha
Honestly, I feel bad for anyone who inherited the monarch power in the Sha line It's a small moment but when Sha Miara is talking with Emriss her power is shouting at her that Emriss can be trusted, I may be looking into it too much but it could mean that she is a slave to the instincts of her predecessors If the previous monarchs really were a slave to their power that makes Sha Miara's situation even worse, because at least the previous monarchs would presumably have been warned about this aspect but she wasn't, she would've been told that it's best for the family and forced to accept.
>If the previous monarchs really were a slave to their power that makes Sha Miara's situation even worse, because at least the previous monarchs would presumably have been warned about this aspect but she wasn't, she would've been told that it's best for the family and forced to accept. Yeah. She's a kid strapped to a rocket. Barely had an opportunity to form her own identity before she gained the Avatar Spirit.
With her power being passed on repeatedly I feel like there might be a way for her to release it but I have no idea what level that would put her at.
See, that actually is a loophole because what happens when she dies post-ascension? Does a random Sha clan member suddenly become a Monarch or ascend?
You're assuming the gang succeeds. I've been having a bit of anxiety about that time Will said plot armor stops protecting the main characters in the final book.
Fair. I'd be surprised if the gang *didn't* succeed one way or another.
I think she’ll probably just join the gang
In Cradle, as in the real world, there are many "real victims" because of how lots of things are wrong with the world. I suppose Sha Miara is one as well, in some ways, less so in others. I think ascending will probably be... good...? for her? Ascension isn't that terrible, probably she'd be able to take some time off to relax.
I would not be surprised if she were the only monarch who could avoid ascending if she chose. We don't know the full process and capability of the Heaven's Wish technique. It's possible she could give up her authority while retaining her Herald's body or give up her Herald's body while retaining her Sage icons. The previous uses of Heaven's Wish appear to have been near total transfer of power and authority, but do we know that it would have to be that way?
I actually kind of agree. I was thinking the same thing.
I mean if she ascends she suddenly gets to do whatever she wants so...
No. Fuck the privileged ojou-sama. If you think about it, the Sha family is the MOST responsible for the hunger problem, because they have been raising Monarchs for millennia.
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She *is* quite close to Shen...
Closer to 17 years old, actually. She was 12 in Unsouled and 15 in Uncrowned.
S1 tells Lindon that monarchs know what staying does to Cradle. Monarchs have to fight the natural order to stay. On that account, I do not feel bad for forcing her ascension. That she is forced to take up the monarch role for the 9CC at such a young age and missing out a childhood I do feel bad for. But the dice roll for many in Cradle is far worse than a pampered princess having to step up before her time. And she had plenty family of support, apparently as opposed to doing it solo. When I look at her circumstances and compare that to Lindon's or Yerin's, she was given everything that they fought tooth and nail for. It is hard to drum up a lot of sympathy for her situation
Honestly, many other people have said similar things, but the way you've phrased it, I agree wholeheartedly.
I don't think she's a victim. She's part of an ancient lineage of Monarchs who refuse to ascend. Even before the Dreadgods, hunger was a problem She has a chance to ascend and finally let Cradle rest from the tides of Dreadbeasts that have plagued it for time immemorial
I imagine aside from Emriss she will be another monarch likely to ascend without much of a fight
Yeah. I actually expect Emriss to be the last to ascend because she's working with them already.
Her status of unique and so she could be a key to a solution.
Do you have any ideas of how?
Her magic is all souly and stuff. I drk it just seems right to me
Hahaha, fair enough.
I can kinda agree here with a bit more though.... Being the kid of a monarch they wouldn't really get a childhood regardless of parental ascension, death, or anything similar.
Mercy is in a similar boat.
Indeed. I've always had a growing dislike of Malice. The way she treats all her children and her people is just so appalling.
> She didn't really do anything to deserve it too. Except that she did. Like, she doesn't seem to be actively malicious, and you can definitely make an argument for her immaturity and lack of political training. But ultimately she's causing Hunger aura and thereby empowering the Dreadgods. And she's actively resisting ascension. *And* it was said that it would be impossible for a Monarch *not* to understand the problem... which makes me think we're probably going to get a closer look at the mechanics in Waybound. It sucks she never got to really be a kid, but that's also not an excuse to stay and contribute to the Dreadgod problem. She can go be a kid in Sanctum where she'll be lower on the relative power scale.
When grown men and women with millennia of experience seem to be refusing to ascend, I don't expect a kid who's just been made Monarch to have the nerve and mindset to ascend. Besides, she's probably contending with some sort of familial duty imprinted on the Heaven's Wish technique to stay and be with the clan. Also dealing with familial expectations as a kid. So yeah, she chose to stay but it's not as incriminating to me as, say, the likes of Northstrider, Malice or Shen.