I always thought those theories were unrealistic. The gap between monarch and judge seems at least as wide as the gap between monarch and foundation.
I've not seen too many people criticise the ending on that basis though which is good. Definitely a very tiny minority.
After seeing what monarchs and whatever Lindon is can do to some low level Abidan and Vroshir I'm starting to think they skip a few steps and maybe they're gold to monarch instead but of course the story can't end there...how else can we have more Lindon and co books in the future if they end on top? Sure it worked as a frame tale for Cradle but an entire Judge story would be kinda meh.
I kinda wish Blue and Orthos got to go all the way. I do think the team was intended to parallel the Abdidan in their roles (not go all the way to judge) but Yerrin going straight reaper and Blue not being able to show an icon yet makes it hard to place them confidently.
I get that, but we needed them to not advance so Lindon could power down with at least part of the team present. I'm hoping they got to advance in the heavens, but the divisions seem to be a different progression system than what was on cradle.
I thought lindon would end up on the level of a judge when he ascends but was wrong about that.
Yes generally a monarch is like a copper to a judge except oz.
He ascended on the level of a judge. So i assumed lindon would have aswell with eithan raising him from 0 to the top.
I wonder if lindon was judge level when he still had all the hunger aura on cradle after the last dreadgods death because a weakened version of himself was a class 2 fiend.
He didn’t actually. Oz wasn’t Judge level on ascension, nor did he join the Abidan immediately upon ascending. He was just *very* compatible for all but *one* division, and spent a few years just chilling on Sanctum before joining the Spiders.
He did join the abidan immediatley, it wouldve been mentioned if he didnt. As we get all the major plotpoints of his sacred artist journey in his records.
In his records In reaper, after his ascension, its said he could inherit any of the mantles except suriels once he done the compatability tests which is done immedietly when you join the abidan.
All the time he spent with the abidan learning,being a monk,joining the spiders was because he wanted to be compatible with suriel.
No he didn't. He was frustrated by the fact that he had no compatibility with the Phoenix Division and spent a bunch of time trying to change himself enough to qualify before giving up and joining the Spiders.
From Reaper
"He learned the arts of many worlds, took on ancient riddles, repaired governments and relationships. He lived for a time as a pacifist monk wandering the streets of Sanctum"
He did all of this before officially joining the Abidan.
I think there might be some confusion as to the difference between Abidan controlled worlds and The Abidan as an Organization. The Organization is made up of the 7 Divisions and Oz did t join any until he joined the Spiders. Yes he still lived on Sanctum, but he wasn't Abidan any more than just a dude living in Vroshir territory is really Vroshir without fighting for them and their goals.
>"He learned the arts of many worlds, took on ancient riddles, repaired governments and relationships. He lived for a time as a pacifist monk wandering the streets of Sanctum"
The paragraph before this says he worked closely with the phoenix division but couldnt join them.
It was said also the abidan didnt know what to do with him because he could join any division excpet suriels. Why would it be said they dont know what to do with someone whos not even part of the abidan. Why would he take compatibility tests aswell if hes not part of them.
Its clear he was part of the abidan but not under any division.
I guess I can see how you are reading that, it just doesn't follow for me. What does make sense is Oz ascending, finding out there is something that he isn't the best in, and dedicating the next chunk of his life towards trying to perfect it.
What division of Abidan do you think let's their agents spend years as pacifist monks, learning art, and solving riddles? He was taking actions to try to align himself with Restoration at his own behest. Not the Abidan.
What could they even do to oz? He had unprecedented talent so ofcourse they'd placate him and let him go and learn stuff and not work.
He was a potentially the next gen judge so his privillages were different.
I know he was taking actions to align with restoration on his own initiative.
It was never implied that Oz ascended with the power equal to a judge. And we don't know how many years it has been since his Ascension and his fight with the fiend.
I can see one line that might have confused people and led them to believe that.
"He had maximum potential in six of the seven Divisions. It quickly became clear that he could inherit the Mantle of any Judge."
I think some people may have taken that to mean he could have *immediately* inherited the mantles.
Yeah, mostly seemed like wishful thinking that would break the integrity of the Willverse if Will were to make it happen, but lots of fans relish in wishful thinking but it’s pretty harmless.
You’re wrong about an important detail.
An Archlord would probably be a Copper equivalent to the Abidan, and Archlords *can* ascend. This gets mentioned repeatedly.
A *Monarch* is a strain on Cradle. Even Heralds and Sages are half ascended.
So really, a Monarch is probably closer to a Gold, maybe even a True Gold.
Our main team tends to punch above their weight, so them getting set up as Reapers as soon as they ascend lends some credibility to this theory.
You wouldn’t send *Coppers* to fix broken worlds.
People in the Lord stages? Maybe. But that still leaves a big gap between the work they’re doing and Judge level work. In the same way there’s a huge gap between Underlord and Monarch.
You kinda do (that's the point...you can't send someone too powerful).
Lindon smacked down Li Markouth who gained a lot of power after ascending so he was probably well on his way in their power rankings and in just a short time Fury was saying anyone less than 2 star wolf isn't worth his time (or maybe Lindon's time).
They *don’t* send freshly ascended Archlords though. (Archlord being the lowest tier that can Ascend)
They send *Monarchs* personally raised and prepared for the role by Death himself.
Just because a Monarch isn’t a Judge, doesn’t make them on par with a Copper. There’s a lot more subtly to the power system then I feel like you guys are acknowledging.
I don't know what you mean by "you guys" here. Fury starts off as an Adept (which isn't a term for a beginner) and I pointed out he warned Lindon anyone not at least two star hound isn't worth his time.
I'm just saying Executors lose their ability to be Executors (or reapers) if they get too heavy so the gang probably can't advance far and keep doing that job.
Are you sure about them getting too heavy? Because throughout the series Suriel is shown saving millions in various iterations just fine. She literally saved Lindon, and she’s the conceptually heaviest of them all.
Early on Suriel is either completely reversing time (so no change to the planet's actual fate), ptotecting an Abidan outpost instead of a full iterationa, cleaning up an iteration they can't save, and finally forcing an iteration (Vesper) to fail faster (even though Lindon saves it at the end).
She is also always showing up to defend the iterations from other outside influences and specifically admits she couldn't do what Eithan did and go live on Cradle (even veiled in disguise) since she isn't from there.
Saving Lindon was also a disaster but that's mostly because Ozriel found him. Saving Lindon was so insignificant it didn't change Cradle's fate until Eithan got involved.
What the judges can't easily do (outside of copying Ozriel's trick and going to their birthplaces) is change fate in a stable way (while allegedly executors could).
My understanding is that the limitation you mention is because of the Eldari pact, not their power level. They reach that level of power through the pact, but as we see with the likes of the Mad King that’s not the only way to get to judge level power.
I don't think they reach their power level *through* the pact though.
I think of it like the Geneva Convention. They are lawful-good, and have thus decided to abide by these laws to not commit warcrimes or drastically mess up other worlds. The pact doesn't give them power, it's just a set of rules that they follow. They each reach their judge-power separately or through other Abidan means, while following the Pacts rules.
From the wiki
> Eldari Pact: A binding Abidan contract. An ancient agreement drafted by the first generation Abidan Judge, Makiel, Hound of Fate, and agreed upon between the original founding members of the Court of Seven Judges. This Pact both increases and restricts the powers of the Abidan. This pact is the tool that allows the Abidan Judges to control the power of the Way as they do.
This isn’t right. They fail because they see the futility of it. The crew is unique in that they are grounded, work together, and won’t let that happen to themselves.
Ozriel can't just step into any world and use his powers with Fate to fix it even if he is grounded and has a team worthy of him now. Executors and Reapers work by not being too powerful/heavy. The gang won't stop advancing so eventually lesser Reapers will have to be the ones going into worlds and they'll be doing something on a larger scale.
No, the reason is that causing deviations to an Iterations natural fate causes corruption, and so Ozriel can’t just fly in and fix everything with his god level power. Ozriel also can’t because of the Eldari Pact. People outside of the Pact must use a fine touch to fix the fate of the world while producing minimal corruption. This is the only thing said about it. There is never a mention of their “grounding” and “weight”. That is purely for the Dreadgods, as the Dreadgods were too significant but still an inherent part of the iteration.
The mad king was an executor and he's as strong as a judge so I don't think they'll be to powerful to descend and I could be wrong but iam pretty sure lindon wasn't able to ascend not because he had to much power but because to much of his power was hunger witch is a corruption that ties him to cradle
yeah the gang has at least 5 more star rankings to gain in power before they can become a judge.
and like Suriel said they are just barely out of the cradle, it would be like electing a todler to a mayor-president/king/queen position. just aint going to happen took Ozriel learning and mastering the magic system of 42 other worlds to get to the judge level.
I read that more as a desire to de-escalate and recruit warring against the Suriel connection more than concern over whether or not they could kill a fresh ascendant.
Pretty sure it isn't a binary situation and there definitely are intentional parallels with the Abidan. Will decided not to take Orthos and Little Blue all the way (and anything they can do Lindon probably can) but he definitely set up the team to balance out similarly to the Abidan.
Mercy's arc (not to mention manifesting the one icon out of Eithan's reach) definitely makes her their phoenix even though she doesn't focus purely on restoration. Ziel is clearly their titan and Dross is their spider though he could be a hound too.
Yerrin is less sure (especially after manifesting the death icon) but despite being a herald she probably has the biggest spatial transfer feats (not to mention a signature ability that strikes everywhere at once). She also looks to the Fox when determining if she will become a reaper.
Orthos is their wolf (mostly because he fits little else and maybe not because he's the best) and Blue is their cleanser (ie Ghost candidate).
Lindon can do it all. Maybe not quite to Ozriel's levels but he's balanced. In a way he is on Eithan's ideal path in the same way Mercy was on Malice's.
Also, even then it isn't simple. Ozriel was a candidate for 6 judge positions (first choice for five) and then just made his own so of course his candidates will be high ranked in multiple divisions.
That's what happens when you take funny things Will says in passing on a release stream to heart. Things are going to change according to narrative, and most of it is just flavor text for worldbuilding.
I didnt expect Lindon to ascend as as judge or something, but i Still feel that the "Paths of Heaven" thing at the beginning of the book was completely left aside and with the series concluded i feel the series left too much of the Abidan side of the story in the dark. WE KNOW that there is so much to KNOW there is so muuuuuch there, but instead we were left with almost nothing. We know the history of the Abidan is in the labyrinth but instead we got literally 0 background from the first court of 7. We dont even know what the fuck is a mantle right now, or what the fuck is the 8ME.
For me it feels like if not now , when will we learn about these things? We going to need to wait another 10 books of ANOTHER series to learn? Because The Captain is really not about abidan stuff.
I feel like the main purpose of the Paths of Heaven was that Will had to find a way to bend the rules of Cradle. Advancing as quickly as the team did is literally insane. Lindon did in 7 years what took Suriel longer than 30. Will fully established these facts but also needed a way to give more weight to the Icons the crew would be manifesting. Particularly given how some people want to claim that certain things came out of nowhere. Will wanted Yerin to have the Death Icon, and while I personally feel that would have been fine just going off of the rest of the series, its nice to be able to point at Yerin meditating at the Death Door as part of that process.
You simply have to accept that this subreddit is filled with people who fanboy Lindon over every other element of storytelling, or other characters. Should have seen the reaction when Yerin beat Lindon in Uncrowned, people were having breakdowns because their favorite character didn't win the fight.
Its a genre filled with self-insert power fantasies, and even if Cradle isn't one of them, the attitude Leaks through in the community. I remember seeing people theorizing that Lindon would ascend to judge level instantly after ascending to help out Ozriel lol.
People were mad because Lindon lost? I thought Yerin earned that win, and it was good storytelling. Good development for Lindon too.
Yeah I saw some of those theories too. Part of my post is a response to that line of thinking.
I hear ya.
I think there's a little difference between Creation versus Building/Smithing, not a lot, but enough to not get a Creation mantle just from a smithing icon. But it's a bit of a semantics/language issue too.
I'm a big Creation theorist and I strongly suspect it will come into play way, way down the line. I never thought it was at all likely to happen in Cradle. I don't get the point of this post though honestly. Theorizing was always part of the fun of Cradle. No hate for not agreeing with a theory but why make a hate post about other people having fun dude? Especially now that it's over and done with.
I wouldn’t rule out the Mantles at some point in the future just because they are Reapers now. In a possible sequel series. I still haven’t given up hope on Lindon becoming Adriel after a while as an Abidan in said sequel. So sue me. I agree with your overall assessment of Cradle the series, though.
I can see it being a thing, CENTURIES in the future. Eithan was playing Cradle on cheat mode, and he could do a similar thing with the Reapers but his influence can only go so far. They all need to walk their own path now.
No, what I'm talking about is how everyone was lining up each of the gang for their own mantle by series end. Each of them has many decades to go before they approach anything resembling a mantle, and very few of them fit cleanly anyway.
Agreed in terms of Cradle, of course. But I still hold out hope that the entire gang gets a mantle in a sequel as well. Ozriel dies tragically and Yeirin inherits his mantle. Orthos fits as a Wolf while Ziel fits as a Titan. Mercy as a Spider, Little Blue as a Ghost are more of a leap but they might move in those directions. Suriel and Zakariel stick around as normal and the Makiel replacement ends up a pivotal character (assuming Mercy is a Spider there). It’s definitely a leap/premature, but it’s still fun to speculate.
You’re right. I was relieved that it didn’t turn into him ascending and then becoming a judge. That would have not made any sense at all.
Dare I say it I don’t think lindons creation icon was deserved either. Considering what we knew about icons and how to manifest them It felt a little cheap to me that he manifested it. The only explanation I could come up with that made a bit of sense was that crafting the dread god weapons carried such significance that it basically forced him to do it but I don’t think he was really that skilled in creation without dross nor was it really a big part of his story besides building some launcher constructs and other bits and bobs
It felt more like the rounding out of the theme of creation and destruction than anything else.
It is significant to him.
Ever since he was a boy he wanted to receive the hammer icon and be a soulsmith. His mother was a soulsmith, he is the descendant of the soulsmiths who worked in the labyrinth and eventually created the dreadgods, he is the apprentice of one of Cradle's greatest soulsmiths in history, he received that master's soulsmith inheritance, and has been basically soulsmithing obsessively since he became a copper.
Not only that, he crafted the only set of dreadgod weapons ever made. The most significant weapons ever created in Cradle, besides Penance, as far as we know. He also made a literal sacred hammer built for soulsmithing which resonated with his multiple madra types after learning of the significance of a hammer to soulsmithing in Reaper.
Dross helped him yes, but he started his soulsmithing journey without him, and grew on his own when Dross was damaged after Bloodline. Dross is more like a super drudge for him.
What else do you need to be a hammer sage?
I don’t agree. I think the dreadgod weapons point is correct but everything else for me felt too weak.
His mother being a soulsmith had nothing to do with his journey. I feel like sage was built up to be such a significant thing to have happen and it feltlike in this book it was just not really treated with the weight it should have.
It was cool but ultimately for me His creation icon felt like it was more for us as a reader than story continuity. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I think I agree with the person you replied to. I get your point, but Lindon has been creating stuff basically since the beginning, from Fisher Gesha on. His launchers, his tinkering with Skysworn armor, constructs while point hunting (he even set up his own shop), his hammer, the Midnight Spear (whatever happened to that, anyway?).
In some respects, I think a case could have been made for several books running that he was a more likely candidate for the Creation icon than the Void, though that changed as the series went on.
I think when you combine that with the Dreadgod set, he qualified.
It seems to me achieving that sort of thing isn't a matter of how much you craft, but rather what you craft and its quality. I also wonder if it's easier to manifest a second icon in general once you're at the power level that he was at, but I'm less sure about that. If so, that's a factor.
I also think it's a long way from manifesting the Creation icon to the missing Judge, but that's perhaps another discussion and more to the "wishful thinking" aspect of the OP.
Still, like I said, I get your point, and I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.
Bits and Bobs?!?!?!?! My brother in the Way, he created a collection of the most powerful artifacts that the world has ever seen. He has been working towards being a Soulsmith his entire life. Him manifesting the creation icon is one of the most obvious things to ever happen in the series. There most likely isn't another person alive on Cradle that deserves that icon more than Lindon.
>I don’t think he was really that skilled in creation without dross
I mean, he played a big part in creating Dross. He also created a path, a sect, a ton of high level equipment even before he started using Dreadgod material, as well as a time-compressed pocket world and then all of the aforementioned Dreadgod weapons as well as more versions of Dross. He also received Osmanthus Arelius' soulsmithing inheritance which would likely increase his connection to the icon.
He was also just constantly using his authority over the void icon in ways that actually resulted in creation/restoration. I think it makes sense.
Lindon manifesting the Creation Icon before ascending acts as a tease for a possible sequel. If anyone expected Lindon to go to Judge level in one book, they haven’t been paying attention.
I felt like Will did right in “feelings” for Lindon that could eventually be construed as a potential Creation Mantle. They way he felt when he’s be creating something or destroying something and the feeling like something else was just out of reach. I know it’s easier to assume icons, but I think it left it open enough that we could think he could be a candidate for a potential Creation Judge in the far future.
I agree they weren't going to end up as judges...
...except, for one thing. That 8th tunnel in the labyrinth, carved by Ozmanthus. He did that while still pre-ascension (as far as we know), and it set him up to eventually become the Reaper. So looking at the gang for eventual Mantles (not immediate ones), is pretty fair game because there's a precedent.
Lindon is killing a class 2 fiend by the end of the book; he’s wayyyyy stronger than the average newly ascended monarch. I agree he’s not judge level but he’s not anywhere near as far off as you’re making out.
Lindon is way stronger than immediately after his ascension by then. I'm pretty sure he couldn't scorch half a world with Blackflame even at the height of his dreadgod power, but it's explicitly mentioned in the last chapter than he can then. That last chapter must have taken place significantly in the future.
Judges, even a single judge, can destroy entire planets (not iterations, but planets) and restore them. By the epilogue, I don't think Lindon could do the same.
Never really expected them to take on those roles in the cradle series, but also didn't expect makiel doing what he did, I assumed the loss of a lot of the abidan and setting up for a rebuild in an abidan series, but it did go a different direction, I did like the glimpse into Reaper tasks we did get though.
I always thought those theories were unrealistic. The gap between monarch and judge seems at least as wide as the gap between monarch and foundation. I've not seen too many people criticise the ending on that basis though which is good. Definitely a very tiny minority.
After seeing what monarchs and whatever Lindon is can do to some low level Abidan and Vroshir I'm starting to think they skip a few steps and maybe they're gold to monarch instead but of course the story can't end there...how else can we have more Lindon and co books in the future if they end on top? Sure it worked as a frame tale for Cradle but an entire Judge story would be kinda meh. I kinda wish Blue and Orthos got to go all the way. I do think the team was intended to parallel the Abdidan in their roles (not go all the way to judge) but Yerrin going straight reaper and Blue not being able to show an icon yet makes it hard to place them confidently.
I get that, but we needed them to not advance so Lindon could power down with at least part of the team present. I'm hoping they got to advance in the heavens, but the divisions seem to be a different progression system than what was on cradle.
I thought lindon would end up on the level of a judge when he ascends but was wrong about that. Yes generally a monarch is like a copper to a judge except oz. He ascended on the level of a judge. So i assumed lindon would have aswell with eithan raising him from 0 to the top. I wonder if lindon was judge level when he still had all the hunger aura on cradle after the last dreadgods death because a weakened version of himself was a class 2 fiend.
He didn’t actually. Oz wasn’t Judge level on ascension, nor did he join the Abidan immediately upon ascending. He was just *very* compatible for all but *one* division, and spent a few years just chilling on Sanctum before joining the Spiders.
He did join the abidan immediatley, it wouldve been mentioned if he didnt. As we get all the major plotpoints of his sacred artist journey in his records. In his records In reaper, after his ascension, its said he could inherit any of the mantles except suriels once he done the compatability tests which is done immedietly when you join the abidan. All the time he spent with the abidan learning,being a monk,joining the spiders was because he wanted to be compatible with suriel.
No he didn't. He was frustrated by the fact that he had no compatibility with the Phoenix Division and spent a bunch of time trying to change himself enough to qualify before giving up and joining the Spiders. From Reaper "He learned the arts of many worlds, took on ancient riddles, repaired governments and relationships. He lived for a time as a pacifist monk wandering the streets of Sanctum" He did all of this before officially joining the Abidan. I think there might be some confusion as to the difference between Abidan controlled worlds and The Abidan as an Organization. The Organization is made up of the 7 Divisions and Oz did t join any until he joined the Spiders. Yes he still lived on Sanctum, but he wasn't Abidan any more than just a dude living in Vroshir territory is really Vroshir without fighting for them and their goals.
>"He learned the arts of many worlds, took on ancient riddles, repaired governments and relationships. He lived for a time as a pacifist monk wandering the streets of Sanctum" The paragraph before this says he worked closely with the phoenix division but couldnt join them. It was said also the abidan didnt know what to do with him because he could join any division excpet suriels. Why would it be said they dont know what to do with someone whos not even part of the abidan. Why would he take compatibility tests aswell if hes not part of them. Its clear he was part of the abidan but not under any division.
I guess I can see how you are reading that, it just doesn't follow for me. What does make sense is Oz ascending, finding out there is something that he isn't the best in, and dedicating the next chunk of his life towards trying to perfect it. What division of Abidan do you think let's their agents spend years as pacifist monks, learning art, and solving riddles? He was taking actions to try to align himself with Restoration at his own behest. Not the Abidan.
What could they even do to oz? He had unprecedented talent so ofcourse they'd placate him and let him go and learn stuff and not work. He was a potentially the next gen judge so his privillages were different. I know he was taking actions to align with restoration on his own initiative.
It was never implied that Oz ascended with the power equal to a judge. And we don't know how many years it has been since his Ascension and his fight with the fiend.
I can see one line that might have confused people and led them to believe that. "He had maximum potential in six of the seven Divisions. It quickly became clear that he could inherit the Mantle of any Judge." I think some people may have taken that to mean he could have *immediately* inherited the mantles.
Yeah, mostly seemed like wishful thinking that would break the integrity of the Willverse if Will were to make it happen, but lots of fans relish in wishful thinking but it’s pretty harmless.
You’re wrong about an important detail. An Archlord would probably be a Copper equivalent to the Abidan, and Archlords *can* ascend. This gets mentioned repeatedly. A *Monarch* is a strain on Cradle. Even Heralds and Sages are half ascended. So really, a Monarch is probably closer to a Gold, maybe even a True Gold. Our main team tends to punch above their weight, so them getting set up as Reapers as soon as they ascend lends some credibility to this theory. You wouldn’t send *Coppers* to fix broken worlds. People in the Lord stages? Maybe. But that still leaves a big gap between the work they’re doing and Judge level work. In the same way there’s a huge gap between Underlord and Monarch.
You kinda do (that's the point...you can't send someone too powerful). Lindon smacked down Li Markouth who gained a lot of power after ascending so he was probably well on his way in their power rankings and in just a short time Fury was saying anyone less than 2 star wolf isn't worth his time (or maybe Lindon's time).
They *don’t* send freshly ascended Archlords though. (Archlord being the lowest tier that can Ascend) They send *Monarchs* personally raised and prepared for the role by Death himself. Just because a Monarch isn’t a Judge, doesn’t make them on par with a Copper. There’s a lot more subtly to the power system then I feel like you guys are acknowledging.
I don't know what you mean by "you guys" here. Fury starts off as an Adept (which isn't a term for a beginner) and I pointed out he warned Lindon anyone not at least two star hound isn't worth his time. I'm just saying Executors lose their ability to be Executors (or reapers) if they get too heavy so the gang probably can't advance far and keep doing that job.
Are you sure about them getting too heavy? Because throughout the series Suriel is shown saving millions in various iterations just fine. She literally saved Lindon, and she’s the conceptually heaviest of them all.
Early on Suriel is either completely reversing time (so no change to the planet's actual fate), ptotecting an Abidan outpost instead of a full iterationa, cleaning up an iteration they can't save, and finally forcing an iteration (Vesper) to fail faster (even though Lindon saves it at the end). She is also always showing up to defend the iterations from other outside influences and specifically admits she couldn't do what Eithan did and go live on Cradle (even veiled in disguise) since she isn't from there. Saving Lindon was also a disaster but that's mostly because Ozriel found him. Saving Lindon was so insignificant it didn't change Cradle's fate until Eithan got involved. What the judges can't easily do (outside of copying Ozriel's trick and going to their birthplaces) is change fate in a stable way (while allegedly executors could).
My understanding is that the limitation you mention is because of the Eldari pact, not their power level. They reach that level of power through the pact, but as we see with the likes of the Mad King that’s not the only way to get to judge level power.
I don't think they reach their power level *through* the pact though. I think of it like the Geneva Convention. They are lawful-good, and have thus decided to abide by these laws to not commit warcrimes or drastically mess up other worlds. The pact doesn't give them power, it's just a set of rules that they follow. They each reach their judge-power separately or through other Abidan means, while following the Pacts rules.
From the wiki > Eldari Pact: A binding Abidan contract. An ancient agreement drafted by the first generation Abidan Judge, Makiel, Hound of Fate, and agreed upon between the original founding members of the Court of Seven Judges. This Pact both increases and restricts the powers of the Abidan. This pact is the tool that allows the Abidan Judges to control the power of the Way as they do.
Huh, I stand corrected. Fair enough. I haven't dug into the wiki at all, just the books and some of the extra fights and things.
This isn’t right. They fail because they see the futility of it. The crew is unique in that they are grounded, work together, and won’t let that happen to themselves.
Ozriel can't just step into any world and use his powers with Fate to fix it even if he is grounded and has a team worthy of him now. Executors and Reapers work by not being too powerful/heavy. The gang won't stop advancing so eventually lesser Reapers will have to be the ones going into worlds and they'll be doing something on a larger scale.
No, the reason is that causing deviations to an Iterations natural fate causes corruption, and so Ozriel can’t just fly in and fix everything with his god level power. Ozriel also can’t because of the Eldari Pact. People outside of the Pact must use a fine touch to fix the fate of the world while producing minimal corruption. This is the only thing said about it. There is never a mention of their “grounding” and “weight”. That is purely for the Dreadgods, as the Dreadgods were too significant but still an inherent part of the iteration.
Conceptual weight is mentioned multiple times as a problem...in like half of the Abidan and Mad King scenes.
The other guy is right. It isn’t because of conceptual weight. It is because of the Eldari Pact. That is all.
The mad king was an executor and he's as strong as a judge so I don't think they'll be to powerful to descend and I could be wrong but iam pretty sure lindon wasn't able to ascend not because he had to much power but because to much of his power was hunger witch is a corruption that ties him to cradle
The Mad King wasn't as an executor...otherwise with his own world backing him and bonded to a fiend he'd just destroy them.
yeah the gang has at least 5 more star rankings to gain in power before they can become a judge. and like Suriel said they are just barely out of the cradle, it would be like electing a todler to a mayor-president/king/queen position. just aint going to happen took Ozriel learning and mastering the magic system of 42 other worlds to get to the judge level.
Lindon is definitely bigger than a toddler. Li Markouth ascended as a toddler, grew a bit, and then got smacked down by pre-ascension Lindon.
The Silverlord also seemed wary of fighting Lindon
I read that more as a desire to de-escalate and recruit warring against the Suriel connection more than concern over whether or not they could kill a fresh ascendant.
Pretty sure it isn't a binary situation and there definitely are intentional parallels with the Abidan. Will decided not to take Orthos and Little Blue all the way (and anything they can do Lindon probably can) but he definitely set up the team to balance out similarly to the Abidan. Mercy's arc (not to mention manifesting the one icon out of Eithan's reach) definitely makes her their phoenix even though she doesn't focus purely on restoration. Ziel is clearly their titan and Dross is their spider though he could be a hound too. Yerrin is less sure (especially after manifesting the death icon) but despite being a herald she probably has the biggest spatial transfer feats (not to mention a signature ability that strikes everywhere at once). She also looks to the Fox when determining if she will become a reaper. Orthos is their wolf (mostly because he fits little else and maybe not because he's the best) and Blue is their cleanser (ie Ghost candidate). Lindon can do it all. Maybe not quite to Ozriel's levels but he's balanced. In a way he is on Eithan's ideal path in the same way Mercy was on Malice's. Also, even then it isn't simple. Ozriel was a candidate for 6 judge positions (first choice for five) and then just made his own so of course his candidates will be high ranked in multiple divisions.
I never thought the books would cover what happened after they ascended I mean the books are called cradle for a reason
That's what happens when you take funny things Will says in passing on a release stream to heart. Things are going to change according to narrative, and most of it is just flavor text for worldbuilding.
I've always figured they'd take up judge positions after several centuries of being Reapers.
That or make their own mantles, maybe both. Some inherit, some create.
I didnt expect Lindon to ascend as as judge or something, but i Still feel that the "Paths of Heaven" thing at the beginning of the book was completely left aside and with the series concluded i feel the series left too much of the Abidan side of the story in the dark. WE KNOW that there is so much to KNOW there is so muuuuuch there, but instead we were left with almost nothing. We know the history of the Abidan is in the labyrinth but instead we got literally 0 background from the first court of 7. We dont even know what the fuck is a mantle right now, or what the fuck is the 8ME. For me it feels like if not now , when will we learn about these things? We going to need to wait another 10 books of ANOTHER series to learn? Because The Captain is really not about abidan stuff.
I’m pretty sure Will has said he’s gonna have another Lindon focused series in the future. It just won’t be for a while.
Literally said that.
I feel like the main purpose of the Paths of Heaven was that Will had to find a way to bend the rules of Cradle. Advancing as quickly as the team did is literally insane. Lindon did in 7 years what took Suriel longer than 30. Will fully established these facts but also needed a way to give more weight to the Icons the crew would be manifesting. Particularly given how some people want to claim that certain things came out of nowhere. Will wanted Yerin to have the Death Icon, and while I personally feel that would have been fine just going off of the rest of the series, its nice to be able to point at Yerin meditating at the Death Door as part of that process.
It was just underused. It was used but so little that it didnt make a difference.
You simply have to accept that this subreddit is filled with people who fanboy Lindon over every other element of storytelling, or other characters. Should have seen the reaction when Yerin beat Lindon in Uncrowned, people were having breakdowns because their favorite character didn't win the fight. Its a genre filled with self-insert power fantasies, and even if Cradle isn't one of them, the attitude Leaks through in the community. I remember seeing people theorizing that Lindon would ascend to judge level instantly after ascending to help out Ozriel lol.
People were mad because Lindon lost? I thought Yerin earned that win, and it was good storytelling. Good development for Lindon too. Yeah I saw some of those theories too. Part of my post is a response to that line of thinking.
I hear ya. I think there's a little difference between Creation versus Building/Smithing, not a lot, but enough to not get a Creation mantle just from a smithing icon. But it's a bit of a semantics/language issue too.
Cap /s
I'm a big Creation theorist and I strongly suspect it will come into play way, way down the line. I never thought it was at all likely to happen in Cradle. I don't get the point of this post though honestly. Theorizing was always part of the fun of Cradle. No hate for not agreeing with a theory but why make a hate post about other people having fun dude? Especially now that it's over and done with.
I wouldn’t rule out the Mantles at some point in the future just because they are Reapers now. In a possible sequel series. I still haven’t given up hope on Lindon becoming Adriel after a while as an Abidan in said sequel. So sue me. I agree with your overall assessment of Cradle the series, though.
I can see it being a thing, CENTURIES in the future. Eithan was playing Cradle on cheat mode, and he could do a similar thing with the Reapers but his influence can only go so far. They all need to walk their own path now. No, what I'm talking about is how everyone was lining up each of the gang for their own mantle by series end. Each of them has many decades to go before they approach anything resembling a mantle, and very few of them fit cleanly anyway.
Agreed in terms of Cradle, of course. But I still hold out hope that the entire gang gets a mantle in a sequel as well. Ozriel dies tragically and Yeirin inherits his mantle. Orthos fits as a Wolf while Ziel fits as a Titan. Mercy as a Spider, Little Blue as a Ghost are more of a leap but they might move in those directions. Suriel and Zakariel stick around as normal and the Makiel replacement ends up a pivotal character (assuming Mercy is a Spider there). It’s definitely a leap/premature, but it’s still fun to speculate.
You’re right. I was relieved that it didn’t turn into him ascending and then becoming a judge. That would have not made any sense at all. Dare I say it I don’t think lindons creation icon was deserved either. Considering what we knew about icons and how to manifest them It felt a little cheap to me that he manifested it. The only explanation I could come up with that made a bit of sense was that crafting the dread god weapons carried such significance that it basically forced him to do it but I don’t think he was really that skilled in creation without dross nor was it really a big part of his story besides building some launcher constructs and other bits and bobs It felt more like the rounding out of the theme of creation and destruction than anything else.
It is significant to him. Ever since he was a boy he wanted to receive the hammer icon and be a soulsmith. His mother was a soulsmith, he is the descendant of the soulsmiths who worked in the labyrinth and eventually created the dreadgods, he is the apprentice of one of Cradle's greatest soulsmiths in history, he received that master's soulsmith inheritance, and has been basically soulsmithing obsessively since he became a copper. Not only that, he crafted the only set of dreadgod weapons ever made. The most significant weapons ever created in Cradle, besides Penance, as far as we know. He also made a literal sacred hammer built for soulsmithing which resonated with his multiple madra types after learning of the significance of a hammer to soulsmithing in Reaper. Dross helped him yes, but he started his soulsmithing journey without him, and grew on his own when Dross was damaged after Bloodline. Dross is more like a super drudge for him. What else do you need to be a hammer sage?
I don’t agree. I think the dreadgod weapons point is correct but everything else for me felt too weak. His mother being a soulsmith had nothing to do with his journey. I feel like sage was built up to be such a significant thing to have happen and it feltlike in this book it was just not really treated with the weight it should have. It was cool but ultimately for me His creation icon felt like it was more for us as a reader than story continuity. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I think I agree with the person you replied to. I get your point, but Lindon has been creating stuff basically since the beginning, from Fisher Gesha on. His launchers, his tinkering with Skysworn armor, constructs while point hunting (he even set up his own shop), his hammer, the Midnight Spear (whatever happened to that, anyway?). In some respects, I think a case could have been made for several books running that he was a more likely candidate for the Creation icon than the Void, though that changed as the series went on. I think when you combine that with the Dreadgod set, he qualified. It seems to me achieving that sort of thing isn't a matter of how much you craft, but rather what you craft and its quality. I also wonder if it's easier to manifest a second icon in general once you're at the power level that he was at, but I'm less sure about that. If so, that's a factor. I also think it's a long way from manifesting the Creation icon to the missing Judge, but that's perhaps another discussion and more to the "wishful thinking" aspect of the OP. Still, like I said, I get your point, and I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.
Thanks for the thoughtful and respectful response. Sometimes I find if I comment here with unpopular opinions people Hate it haha.
Bits and Bobs?!?!?!?! My brother in the Way, he created a collection of the most powerful artifacts that the world has ever seen. He has been working towards being a Soulsmith his entire life. Him manifesting the creation icon is one of the most obvious things to ever happen in the series. There most likely isn't another person alive on Cradle that deserves that icon more than Lindon.
>I don’t think he was really that skilled in creation without dross I mean, he played a big part in creating Dross. He also created a path, a sect, a ton of high level equipment even before he started using Dreadgod material, as well as a time-compressed pocket world and then all of the aforementioned Dreadgod weapons as well as more versions of Dross. He also received Osmanthus Arelius' soulsmithing inheritance which would likely increase his connection to the icon. He was also just constantly using his authority over the void icon in ways that actually resulted in creation/restoration. I think it makes sense.
Lindon manifesting the Creation Icon before ascending acts as a tease for a possible sequel. If anyone expected Lindon to go to Judge level in one book, they haven’t been paying attention.
I felt like Will did right in “feelings” for Lindon that could eventually be construed as a potential Creation Mantle. They way he felt when he’s be creating something or destroying something and the feeling like something else was just out of reach. I know it’s easier to assume icons, but I think it left it open enough that we could think he could be a candidate for a potential Creation Judge in the far future.
The point is improvement always, and doing it without being lonely.
Monarch is more like high iron or low jade not foundation or copper. Remember even Arch Lords can make it under their own power
I agree they weren't going to end up as judges... ...except, for one thing. That 8th tunnel in the labyrinth, carved by Ozmanthus. He did that while still pre-ascension (as far as we know), and it set him up to eventually become the Reaper. So looking at the gang for eventual Mantles (not immediate ones), is pretty fair game because there's a precedent.
Lindon is killing a class 2 fiend by the end of the book; he’s wayyyyy stronger than the average newly ascended monarch. I agree he’s not judge level but he’s not anywhere near as far off as you’re making out.
Lindon is way stronger than immediately after his ascension by then. I'm pretty sure he couldn't scorch half a world with Blackflame even at the height of his dreadgod power, but it's explicitly mentioned in the last chapter than he can then. That last chapter must have taken place significantly in the future. Judges, even a single judge, can destroy entire planets (not iterations, but planets) and restore them. By the epilogue, I don't think Lindon could do the same.
Never really expected them to take on those roles in the cradle series, but also didn't expect makiel doing what he did, I assumed the loss of a lot of the abidan and setting up for a rebuild in an abidan series, but it did go a different direction, I did like the glimpse into Reaper tasks we did get though.
They don't have to inherit a mantle - I think focusing on their (multiple?) areas of aptitude is reasonable though.
Coming back to this since I have 1 hour left but don't want to read this until I'm done