Keep in mind, throw up the same comparative of Defense when Hill was with KC vs without.
The D was practically carrying this team in spite of the offense last season and really came into their own in 2022.
PM didn’t have to put up ridiculous stats because the D was so porous.
The good thing the D will be a top 10 defense next season. But i can optimistically see the offense being way more explosive.
That combo is what the rest of the league is afraid of.
That seems to be missing the point. OP is not saying we should not have traded Hill. Clearly that worked out for both sides just fine. OP is saying that with our new WR talent we may see a resurgence of Mahomes (coming off a career worst season) to elite offensive numbers again, which is a very fair point, and something to be excited about. Mahomes being able to put up historical passing numbers while we still field an elite defense should make this a fantastic season.
Exactly. This is not the flex this guy thinks it is. One SB win with him, two SB wins without him. They have used the money that would’ve gone to Tyreek well. Defense is much better, Special teams are excellent, solid running game and Mahomes is still lethal in the clutch. Tyreek’s Dolphins? One and done x2. He can blow love up Tua’s ass all he wants but Tyreek knows Mahomes is the GOAT.
And one mvp with and one without. Yeah his down field numbers have been bad, but he's had to completely change his game to take.underneath stuff because we either haven't had a down field threat or teams have explicitly taken it away because their chances of beating us hinge on keeping the score under about 24
Very true, but it can't be denied how Reek could peel the top off defenses. We need to get back to being a quick-strike offense that can score at will, regardless of how many rings we win or don't win.
I think even that is being too harsh to Pat. Look at how dominant he became throwing short. All this shows is how he beat teams throwing to Tyreek vs how he beat teams without Tykeek
No, I agree; i think we're arguing semantics. People have said in the thread that this shows Pat was better with Tyreek; my point is more that Pat is equally fantastic with or without him
Well ya he doesn’t become worse at the position. But with Hill the offense was more dangerous. We knew that when we traded him though because it saved us so much money and gained us enough draft capital that losing a huge piece allowed us to build other places.
I have a hard time with this. A new defense was born to deal with him. That defense broke Josh Allen the following year after the 2-high safety look got popular. I almost wanna say it broke burrow too.
2-high safety isn't new, it's just that defenses had to start spamming it because it was the only thing even remotely slowing KC down.
But that context is definitely important in these numbers, because tyreek had elite speed and downfield adjustment.
Mahomes throws a great ball, obviously, but it's not humanly possible to drop a ball onto an exact spot 20 yards down field repeatedly. Mahomes' job is to get it to within a couple feet of the right space and then the receiver's job is to adjust their spot and timing to get there at the right time and place. Tyreek was our best receiver at adjusting to the ball. The lack of down field catching talent hurt mahomes' numbers as much as defenses explicitly taking that look away from him.
There are no easy answers for the offense we're running now though. Short passes and yards after the catch. Scheme and talent. you can take that away if you want to, but then you're sacrificing the long stuff which mahomes is great at. Even without an elite pass catcher he's goign to crush you with 3 or 4 of those a game if you let him.
I think leadership plays a big role and it's effect on other receivers. Nobody will ever convince me that D-Rob and Sammy Watkins were elite receivers, but when they saw Reek doing the amazing shit he was doing, they elevated their game to get some of that action. We need a real leader with genuine talent at the WR1 position, and then the WR2 thru WR4 guys will step up as well and Pat can start slinging it deep and often again.
Totally agree. I'm not that savy so my bad on thinking 2 high was new. The most I heard about deep ball tracking last year was about how Tyreek was uniquely good at it and Arrowhead Stadium makes it uniquely hard to track
Also a reason to be excited that Worthy is good at tracking the ball in some of the draft blurbs I read.
Yeah, two high shell coverage was not new and it's a known way to stop deep passing but it has a drawback which is lightening the box and leaving under stuff open.
But we didn't have a great run game to take advantage of the light box nor did we have an offense accustomed to underneath passing. We developed both within half a season.
Point taken --- but when there's 13 seconds left in a divisional playoff game and we need "that dude" to get us within FG range to give us any shot of winning --- call me crazy but I want a guy like Reek out there
You can extrapolate to make it year by year.
Idk why people are wanting to fight the idea of hill being an elite receiver. It doesn't diminish mahomes being an elite passer. It just shows they elevated each other.
No one is fighting that Hill was a good receiver. The evidence is that Pat can win with all types of receivers. Hill left and the Chiefs have kept on winning.
Idk why ppl still care, and he’s still my favorite (or second favorite) receiver . No shit he was elite: that’s the reason the team got so many resources from trading him to build up one of the best defenses in the league. Not like he walked.
It obviously worked out for the Chiefs, and Tyreek got more money, and even greater recognition as a top receiver, in a worse situation. For a receiver, I’d say it worked out for him too. They’re judged on numbers, not rings
I promise you’ll like it. Might take a while to warm up to it, but the grass won’t hurt you fam. Go ahead and touch it. Brush up on those communication skills
Hill was a cheat code with Mahomes and it made for the most exciting offenses I’ve ever seen from the Chiefs.
Both are great players and both are doing great without the other
The top line numbers on that chart are bullshit, and entirely misleading.
2022-2024? The 2024 season hasn't happened yet. They are comparing 4 seasons to 2 seasons.
I am as happy as anyone that we got Worthy, and hope that opens up the deep game for us again (although look at what happened to that game in 2021 WITH Hill).
Let's not forget, though, that Pat, uhm, won the FUCKING MVP AWARD WITHOUT TYREEK in 2022. The 2023 regular season was an anomaly, with historically bad WR play. He and the whole offense are likely to be better just based on regression to the mean, let alone accounting for the addition of Brown and Worthy.
Just say no to clickbait bullshit.
Hill wasn't the only difference and with ot without hill his game would have changed. Teams knew what to do, sure hill is good enough to get away but any great QB evolves. Also we weren't forced to bomb it out because our defense couldn't stop shit.
Speed is nothing without three things.
1. The ability to track the ball and adjust laterally while at top speed.
2. The ability to track the ball and accelerate or slow down at top speed.
3. The ability to catch the ball with your hands and not rely on your body.
MVS couldn't move laterally at all and had no ability to accelerate further once at his top speed. MVS also has mediocre hands. Cheetah was brilliant at this and always had another gear he could access when he needed to.
Hardman can move laterally but couldn't track the ball with his body or catch with his hands. Ball had to be pretty much right on target.
Speed is nice but give me a guy who can track the ball any day over some straight line speed guy. Hopefully they can keep Worthy healthy and Brown will step up as well. I still think they need one more vet WR on a one year deal for the games when Rice is out. But once we have Rice, Kelce, Worthy, Brown and Pacheco on the field this offense will be deadly.
Good post. Shows how Mahomes adjusted to the cast he had and still won. I think going big on over the top targets with Hollywood and X were strategic moves based on this logic. Mahomes was able to make do, now we give him actual threats - the best is yet to come!
I need a source for those stats. They seem off. But let’s say they are accurate, Back to Back championships….hilarious haters. Legitimately think those stats are not right.
You're missing the point --- we lost Hill but we got chances to get another younger, faster Hill
Joe Montana had a great receiver named Dwight Clark and won two rings with him --- coulda said "we don't need another Dwight" but they drafted a guy named Jerry Rice in 1985 and things worked out pretty well for them
People need to get over that guy already. We've won 2 Superbowls without him, and will likely win more. The stats of how they happened are irrelevant. It's a testament to all involved that they were able to adapt and keep winning.
Hill's departure forced Mahomes to become a more well rounded QB early in his career. And he had to adapt not just because he lost his most dangerous weapon, but because the other 31 teams had enough film on him to limit his deep options. I think if you asked any coach who they'd rather face, 2021 Mahomes or 2024 Mahomes, they'd choose 2021.
Not sure I can agree with ya. Teams had plenty of game film on Mahomes and Reek by 2021, but they seemed unstoppable anyway. I love being that cocky. It puts fear into teams.
So, yeah it would be really good to get some recieving talent. It would be better to get somebody who forced teams to choose between doubling said Reciever and doubling Kelce.
It's not that Mahomes CAN'T throw those deep balls, it's that our recievers the last two seasons are a part of our team we basically won *in spite of* as opposed to *because of*.
However, Mahomes has become the same sort of "1st downs are inevitable" machine that Brady was. We do need to adjust our offense because we are stagnating in the second half way to much. However, it's like Mahomes talent has gone anywhere.
The real point of this post is stats can be construed to make any great player look bad, especially with a generational QB who can lead his team to SB wins throwing bombs, throwing screens, throwing upright, throwing sideways, be a gun slinger, be a game manager, etc and that, thankfully, when you do have a QB like that you play any way that specific year needs you to play and not risk success (despite offseason concerns and misplaced hype).
If Worthy and Brown, at least as a combo, can get us anywhere near what Tyreek gave us then we will be amazing. I think Mahomes has really grown these last few seasons as a QB learning how to read the defenses better and take what they give him. If you look at the second chart, the only numbers that are better are the short passes. It's clear towards the end of Hill's time with us that Mahomes was really forcing it to him a lot, and I think that's a big reason why we lost against the Bengals in the AFC championship game. Now that Mahomes has experience both with and without Tyreek, he could be absolutely disgusting with some actual weapons. Combine the best of both of these charts are Mahomes is unstoppable.
What I find most fascinating is how he's still elite in the intermediate range (10-20 yards). That's also probably a Kelce stat. But yeah most QB numbers are dependent on their help. It's why we see teams trading for elite wide receivers like Diggs and AJ Brown to help their rookie contract QBs.
I mean, what worked before was having both. Kelce with super sure hands kind jogging into the hole while Reek boat raced the opponents secondary.
Then pucl your poison. Try and double Kelce and leave Hill open for highlight reel plays, or let Kelce have the ball in space with a full hea of steam.
So what you're saying is: With Hill, we were Superbowl winners. Without Hill, we were Superbowl winners.
Without Hill the Chiefs are undefeated in the postseason
That is an awesome stat!
So what you're saying is: With Hill, we were Superbowl winners. Without Hill, we were **two time** Superbowl winners.
Keep in mind, throw up the same comparative of Defense when Hill was with KC vs without. The D was practically carrying this team in spite of the offense last season and really came into their own in 2022. PM didn’t have to put up ridiculous stats because the D was so porous. The good thing the D will be a top 10 defense next season. But i can optimistically see the offense being way more explosive. That combo is what the rest of the league is afraid of.
God bless Spags.
That seems to be missing the point. OP is not saying we should not have traded Hill. Clearly that worked out for both sides just fine. OP is saying that with our new WR talent we may see a resurgence of Mahomes (coming off a career worst season) to elite offensive numbers again, which is a very fair point, and something to be excited about. Mahomes being able to put up historical passing numbers while we still field an elite defense should make this a fantastic season.
Exactly. This is not the flex this guy thinks it is. One SB win with him, two SB wins without him. They have used the money that would’ve gone to Tyreek well. Defense is much better, Special teams are excellent, solid running game and Mahomes is still lethal in the clutch. Tyreek’s Dolphins? One and done x2. He can blow love up Tua’s ass all he wants but Tyreek knows Mahomes is the GOAT.
Well, special teams was certainly not excellent most of the 2021-2022 season.
And one mvp with and one without. Yeah his down field numbers have been bad, but he's had to completely change his game to take.underneath stuff because we either haven't had a down field threat or teams have explicitly taken it away because their chances of beating us hinge on keeping the score under about 24
Smokin' Joe won two Super Bowls without Jerry Rice -- so you're saying getting Rice was a waste of time?
Interesting comparison. There were so many other variables during these timelines tho.
Very true, but it can't be denied how Reek could peel the top off defenses. We need to get back to being a quick-strike offense that can score at will, regardless of how many rings we win or don't win.
\*regardless\*?!!!!
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! "Regardless of how many rings we win." FFS. Rings are the only fucking point. FOH with this nonsense.
You’re telling me a QB will have better numbers when throwing to one of the most talented receivers of this generation?
Wild concept, but the numbers seem to lean that way 😆
I think even that is being too harsh to Pat. Look at how dominant he became throwing short. All this shows is how he beat teams throwing to Tyreek vs how he beat teams without Tykeek
There is nothing wrong with recognizing his numbers were better when Hill was here. Brady’s were better when he had Moss.
No, I agree; i think we're arguing semantics. People have said in the thread that this shows Pat was better with Tyreek; my point is more that Pat is equally fantastic with or without him
Well ya he doesn’t become worse at the position. But with Hill the offense was more dangerous. We knew that when we traded him though because it saved us so much money and gained us enough draft capital that losing a huge piece allowed us to build other places.
I have a hard time with this. A new defense was born to deal with him. That defense broke Josh Allen the following year after the 2-high safety look got popular. I almost wanna say it broke burrow too.
2-high safety isn't new, it's just that defenses had to start spamming it because it was the only thing even remotely slowing KC down. But that context is definitely important in these numbers, because tyreek had elite speed and downfield adjustment. Mahomes throws a great ball, obviously, but it's not humanly possible to drop a ball onto an exact spot 20 yards down field repeatedly. Mahomes' job is to get it to within a couple feet of the right space and then the receiver's job is to adjust their spot and timing to get there at the right time and place. Tyreek was our best receiver at adjusting to the ball. The lack of down field catching talent hurt mahomes' numbers as much as defenses explicitly taking that look away from him. There are no easy answers for the offense we're running now though. Short passes and yards after the catch. Scheme and talent. you can take that away if you want to, but then you're sacrificing the long stuff which mahomes is great at. Even without an elite pass catcher he's goign to crush you with 3 or 4 of those a game if you let him.
Yeah, it was really noticeable how many times he went deep to MVS and missed because he turned the wrong way.
I think leadership plays a big role and it's effect on other receivers. Nobody will ever convince me that D-Rob and Sammy Watkins were elite receivers, but when they saw Reek doing the amazing shit he was doing, they elevated their game to get some of that action. We need a real leader with genuine talent at the WR1 position, and then the WR2 thru WR4 guys will step up as well and Pat can start slinging it deep and often again.
I loved Sammy, he would always manage to snatch up balls that were inches from being in the dirt.
Say wasn't elite but he was very good. Availability was his problem not talent.
Totally agree. I'm not that savy so my bad on thinking 2 high was new. The most I heard about deep ball tracking last year was about how Tyreek was uniquely good at it and Arrowhead Stadium makes it uniquely hard to track Also a reason to be excited that Worthy is good at tracking the ball in some of the draft blurbs I read.
Yeah, two high shell coverage was not new and it's a known way to stop deep passing but it has a drawback which is lightening the box and leaving under stuff open. But we didn't have a great run game to take advantage of the light box nor did we have an offense accustomed to underneath passing. We developed both within half a season.
Superbowls with Hill - 1 Superbowls without Hill - 2 Checkmate, Athiests.
Came to say this. Athiests.. **Gottem!**
Point taken --- but when there's 13 seconds left in a divisional playoff game and we need "that dude" to get us within FG range to give us any shot of winning --- call me crazy but I want a guy like Reek out there
This graphic looks like it was put together by a 10 year old that just discovered PowerPoint.
Impossible to read. I discredit it solely on the basis of formatting.
so much drop shadow... and why is it all-caps?
Probably an AI-generated graphic that a 4th-grader learned in school last week
I literally thought this might be the most trash graphic I’ve seen in ages
Why are we comparing two different lengths of time? I don’t think it tells the story they think.
You can extrapolate to make it year by year. Idk why people are wanting to fight the idea of hill being an elite receiver. It doesn't diminish mahomes being an elite passer. It just shows they elevated each other.
No one is fighting that Hill was a good receiver. The evidence is that Pat can win with all types of receivers. Hill left and the Chiefs have kept on winning.
Idk why ppl still care, and he’s still my favorite (or second favorite) receiver . No shit he was elite: that’s the reason the team got so many resources from trading him to build up one of the best defenses in the league. Not like he walked. It obviously worked out for the Chiefs, and Tyreek got more money, and even greater recognition as a top receiver, in a worse situation. For a receiver, I’d say it worked out for him too. They’re judged on numbers, not rings
Lol, ok
You coulda just left the downvote and said nothing if you had nothing to rebut
And you could have just upvoted if you had nothing to contribute. But here we are.
I was making conversation genius. Maybe try it outside sometime
Ok Lil bro.
I promise you’ll like it. Might take a while to warm up to it, but the grass won’t hurt you fam. Go ahead and touch it. Brush up on those communication skills
Hill was a cheat code with Mahomes and it made for the most exciting offenses I’ve ever seen from the Chiefs. Both are great players and both are doing great without the other
Most impressive stat that was left out of this. SB record with Hill 1-1. SB record without Hill 2-0
More accurate stat: Mahomes with average or good O-Line in Super Bowls: 3-0 Mahomes with decimated O-Line in Super Bowls: 0-1
Mahomes MVPs With Hill: 1 Without Hill: 1
The top line numbers on that chart are bullshit, and entirely misleading. 2022-2024? The 2024 season hasn't happened yet. They are comparing 4 seasons to 2 seasons. I am as happy as anyone that we got Worthy, and hope that opens up the deep game for us again (although look at what happened to that game in 2021 WITH Hill). Let's not forget, though, that Pat, uhm, won the FUCKING MVP AWARD WITHOUT TYREEK in 2022. The 2023 regular season was an anomaly, with historically bad WR play. He and the whole offense are likely to be better just based on regression to the mean, let alone accounting for the addition of Brown and Worthy. Just say no to clickbait bullshit.
1 💍/4 || 2💍/2
The fact this is true, and yet Mahomes is still the QB1 of the League and continues to win Superbowls is astonishing.
The most important stat: with Hill - 1 SB. Without Hill - 2 SB.
Defense adjustments with different offensive schemes explains all here
Nothing is easier to read that white on white.
Hill wasn't the only difference and with ot without hill his game would have changed. Teams knew what to do, sure hill is good enough to get away but any great QB evolves. Also we weren't forced to bomb it out because our defense couldn't stop shit.
God I fucking love watching Mahomes play for the chiefs. Lol
Speed is nothing without three things. 1. The ability to track the ball and adjust laterally while at top speed. 2. The ability to track the ball and accelerate or slow down at top speed. 3. The ability to catch the ball with your hands and not rely on your body. MVS couldn't move laterally at all and had no ability to accelerate further once at his top speed. MVS also has mediocre hands. Cheetah was brilliant at this and always had another gear he could access when he needed to. Hardman can move laterally but couldn't track the ball with his body or catch with his hands. Ball had to be pretty much right on target. Speed is nice but give me a guy who can track the ball any day over some straight line speed guy. Hopefully they can keep Worthy healthy and Brown will step up as well. I still think they need one more vet WR on a one year deal for the games when Rice is out. But once we have Rice, Kelce, Worthy, Brown and Pacheco on the field this offense will be deadly.
Good post. Shows how Mahomes adjusted to the cast he had and still won. I think going big on over the top targets with Hollywood and X were strategic moves based on this logic. Mahomes was able to make do, now we give him actual threats - the best is yet to come!
I need a source for those stats. They seem off. But let’s say they are accurate, Back to Back championships….hilarious haters. Legitimately think those stats are not right.
Ok. So? We don’t have Hill. Stop fuckin talking about Hill. Get over the Hill.
You're missing the point --- we lost Hill but we got chances to get another younger, faster Hill Joe Montana had a great receiver named Dwight Clark and won two rings with him --- coulda said "we don't need another Dwight" but they drafted a guy named Jerry Rice in 1985 and things worked out pretty well for them
Are you guys ever gonna fucken stop with this. 2 seasons without Hill, 2 Super Bowls. The discussion is over.
I always want the best weapons for Mahomes. Call me stupid, but I'm weird like that.
People need to get over that guy already. We've won 2 Superbowls without him, and will likely win more. The stats of how they happened are irrelevant. It's a testament to all involved that they were able to adapt and keep winning.
There's more going on here than Hill
With Hill we were a top 2 offense with the bums we had last year fringe 10
OP’s point is that Hollywood and Worthy were good additions
`Super Bowl wins:` `With Hill (2017-2021) 1` `Without Hill (2022-2023) 2` Whats your point?
Hill's departure forced Mahomes to become a more well rounded QB early in his career. And he had to adapt not just because he lost his most dangerous weapon, but because the other 31 teams had enough film on him to limit his deep options. I think if you asked any coach who they'd rather face, 2021 Mahomes or 2024 Mahomes, they'd choose 2021.
Not sure I can agree with ya. Teams had plenty of game film on Mahomes and Reek by 2021, but they seemed unstoppable anyway. I love being that cocky. It puts fear into teams.
So, yeah it would be really good to get some recieving talent. It would be better to get somebody who forced teams to choose between doubling said Reciever and doubling Kelce. It's not that Mahomes CAN'T throw those deep balls, it's that our recievers the last two seasons are a part of our team we basically won *in spite of* as opposed to *because of*. However, Mahomes has become the same sort of "1st downs are inevitable" machine that Brady was. We do need to adjust our offense because we are stagnating in the second half way to much. However, it's like Mahomes talent has gone anywhere.
Yawn….
This chart is also wildly misleading and cherry picks what it uses to build a narrative
Who’s Hill?
I'm so fucking sick of these with Hill vs without. Dude isn't walking through our doors for the 3rd year in a row now.
The real point of this post is stats can be construed to make any great player look bad, especially with a generational QB who can lead his team to SB wins throwing bombs, throwing screens, throwing upright, throwing sideways, be a gun slinger, be a game manager, etc and that, thankfully, when you do have a QB like that you play any way that specific year needs you to play and not risk success (despite offseason concerns and misplaced hype).
If Worthy and Brown, at least as a combo, can get us anywhere near what Tyreek gave us then we will be amazing. I think Mahomes has really grown these last few seasons as a QB learning how to read the defenses better and take what they give him. If you look at the second chart, the only numbers that are better are the short passes. It's clear towards the end of Hill's time with us that Mahomes was really forcing it to him a lot, and I think that's a big reason why we lost against the Bengals in the AFC championship game. Now that Mahomes has experience both with and without Tyreek, he could be absolutely disgusting with some actual weapons. Combine the best of both of these charts are Mahomes is unstoppable.
What I find most fascinating is how he's still elite in the intermediate range (10-20 yards). That's also probably a Kelce stat. But yeah most QB numbers are dependent on their help. It's why we see teams trading for elite wide receivers like Diggs and AJ Brown to help their rookie contract QBs.
lol you forgot 2 Super Bowls
Our best deep threat the last 2 seasons is a white boy
A white boy who looked awfully slow in 2023 compared to 2022
He looked like a big rig rumbling along. Nothing really stopping it.
Yeah I guess. I'd rather have a speed demon who nobody can catch in a race to the endzone.
I mean, what worked before was having both. Kelce with super sure hands kind jogging into the hole while Reek boat raced the opponents secondary. Then pucl your poison. Try and double Kelce and leave Hill open for highlight reel plays, or let Kelce have the ball in space with a full hea of steam.
I blame it on the Nagy. Downvote away
Blame what? Winning 2 Superbowls?
Nagy wasn't OC in the first year without Hill, y'know...