It’s easy when you don’t pay attention and there’s no clear trail, I agree with that
However, in this gentleman’s case (in the article), it does seem he relied on his “knowing the park” which he…clearly didn’t
I don’t think K&L would make the same assumption about their surroundings
Honestly, people who think it is impossible to get lost in such locations have no clue what they are talking about. They look at a map think everything is so logical and easy. I have been in the army and I am a reasonably experienced hiker. People get lost under a lot less difficult conditions than this. Sometimes all you need is straying off course for 5 meters and you’re lost.
I will have to politely disagree: the fact that nature was so overgrown or impenetrable ***outside*** of the trail path, speaks against they just ventured *into* it, no?…
We know they ventured in. We already know it. It’s not me saying that will change the fact. They went into it and died there; whether on their own or foul play.
Plus it wasn’t overgrown, it is untouched rainforest. That is how it is always.
You said in the initial comment that Google Earth view suggests it’s easy to lose that trail
I think it’s not easy to lose that trail as walking off that trail would be hampered by overgrown jungle and difficulty of terrain
So, I agree, ***something*** other than losing the trail and getting lost, made them get off the trail
Google Earth doesn’t suggests, it shows. Go on google earth.
It is deep rainforest and if you click on the little person it will show you the areas where there is image. You can see the photos people who hiked there took. It is jungle jungle.
Easy to get lost not because they may have wondered off into impenetrable parts but because they kept going and at some point it becomes confusing to find where they came from. It is not like the paths are marked and well kept; it usually is just commonly used and thus overstepped or has a path that allows for passing but not necessarily created for it and it doesn’t mean that it is easy to spot.
I don’t belong to either team “lost” or “faul play”. I know both are possible and this case just makes my heart hurt for them.
I did watch several videos of people walking the trail
As a hiker, I didn’t see how you can just “walk into jungle” by mistake, the path walked by locals for years seems straightforward to follow, at least to paddocks
But that’s not even the “lost” theory per se: people theorize the girls followed the *quebrada* to look for the waterfall and then got lost
If that was the case, they could have just walked back along the same *quebrada*, after they found the waterfall or didn’t find it
Yes it’s very sad because the families were probably left with many questions (as we have them in discussion forums since) and if the investigation was more thorough, probably there would have been less doubts left about “official version”
The trail and the forest itself is [so easy to get lost they even put markers on the pictures online 🤣](https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g298424-d19882255-Reviews-Sendero_El_Pianista-Boquete_Chiriqui_Province.html)
I’ve hiked in the rainforest before. I consider it super easy to get lost. You see one thing when you walk through towards one direction, when you turn around you see a completely different thing and it is confusing.
I don’t know what the quebrada means in this case. I know what the word means but not in relation to that trail.
Indeed, it is so confusing, all the mismatched details and all the different characters at play here. I don’t know what to think.
To me the most haunting thing is how long they were there alive and no one found them.
*Quebrada 1* is a first stream they crossed (pic 508), it’s a Spanish word for a brook/stream, as I understand it
I don’t think our discussion is about ***general*** possibility of getting lost in rainforest, or anywhere else for that matter
I think our discussion is about ***this particular trail*** AND under the weather conditions on that day
I never hiked on rainforest trails but I’ve hiked a lot in both forested as well as rocky mountain areas, both with well marked trails, and no-trails, where you have to navigate to your destination and back by topo-map in your head and cairns only:) And I did it solo many times. Several hikers-both local and tourists-went missing in my area but their bodies were always found a few days later, nearby the trail/path.
In all death cases, it was either slip&fall, or fall caused by medical distress (heatstroke, for example). I got “lost” twice myself (I put it in parentheses coz it wasn’t that dramatic, I didn’t have to spend the night coz I found my way before the sunset:), once due to snow blizzard covering the trail, and once by hiking with someone who - like a subject of this article - “knew” the way:) Lesson learned here:)
So, those are some of my experiences. I don’t want to make this comment a novel:) but maybe next time i’ll share my thoughts, feelings, and actions when for a few hours I *did* think it could turn into overnighter:) It wasn’t turning off my phone, Ill tell u that much
I agree with you, not being found is very puzzling in the context of “official scenario” as it would have appeared they hiked almost *parallel* to the trail (since the shorts were found close to 2nd bridge, the bridge ***on the trail***)
I would like to learn more about you rainforest hiking, can you share some of your experiences?…
No. My point was absolutely how much people, specially tourists, underestimate the beast that a rainforest really is and how easy it is to get lost there.
Coming from a small country, where a walk in a forest trail is a part of daily life and the forests look copy paste of the same tree until the eye can see.
I can totally see them underestimating how big and confusing the terrain is and being overwhelmed. The weather conditions of the day were fine, as far as I understood.
If you have done it before, you are already more experienced than most. And being lucky to find the way back or make the an important decision of turning around and what not at the correct time.
I don’t have too many histories to share. I was never alone and even in a group, following a map there were parts that were unclear about where was the correct “trail”. There was a trail but no markings or signage. It is always an adventure of braving the surroundings and the environment. If we had gotten lost we would have been in big big trouble and the area was so vast we could have gone unfound.
I don’t have much more to say about it, other than it taught me not to underestimate it.
I don’t think anyone questions people can get lost
I got lost twice… for a little bit, then found my way
I think people question K&L’s getting lost as the simple and singular explanation for their demise…
So that happened just next to Silicon Valley… wow!
Yeah, conditions in June there might be rather similar to conditions in Boquete. He survived 10 days drinking water from a creek and that is what I would expect the girls did. And his main issue was hypothermia. Again, expected. The girls were two, so the risk from hypothermia is much lower than for shirtless individuals, but certainly not negligible. It remains all a mystery.
https://paulkirtley.co.uk/2010/hypothermia/
Have you read all of the things you must do once you become hypothermic — to not die? People get hypothermia in large groups, well prepared and clothed correctly all the time. The fact that there were two of them means absolutely nothing without a sleeping bag (and this would have only been marginally helpful) …but it would explain why they were lying next to each other in the night photos.
The girls were in tank tops…honestly, not much better than shirtless (as far as hypothermia is concerned).
“Sweating can cause hypothermia, a condition that occurs when the body loses heat faster than it can produce. Hypothermia can happen in very cold temperatures, but it can also occur in cool temperatures above 40°F if someone becomes chilled from sweat, rain, or being in cold water for a long time.”
They would not have had ways to dry off well, if at all in the humidity of the jungle.
Of course it does. My hair constantly gets soaked through at least one 4 fingers from scalp on hot days or extreme exercise. To the point that it takes ages to dry back again.
That is your SCALP sweating…not your HAIR. The night photos were taken at night, she’d likely cooled down and her hair was dry at that point. We also do not (clearly) see scalp in the photo.
And it’s unlikely they were exercising or walking around much beyond the first few days. No food. No energy.
Well, my shirt doesn’t sweat either but it does get soaked with sweat, same as hair. My point is not to discuss if hair has sweat glands. Ofc it doesn’t.
But that doesn’t destroy the possibility of wet, sticky, dirty hair. The length may be cleaner but since we don’t know which part we are seeing, we can assume it isnt the scalp behind it.
We know hair can get wet and dry out. It can even get wet again. It can dry again too. What’s your point?
It was dry in the photo. Her hair was either A. Never wet B. Wet and then dried out C. Dry because it was not raining, she wasn’t in water and she wasn’t sweating in the middle of the night when the photo was taken. D. She was no longer living in the photo and the dead don’t sweat.
You responded to another person that hair doesn’t sweat. Indeed it doesn’t but it gets sweaty.
I agree with your point that in the middle of the night she probably wasnt sweating but that doesn’t mean it didn’t before and depending on the temperature it could still be sticky humid and dirty from it. Which is what the other person was asking about.
Has it been established she was dead in the hair photo? I missed that somehow.
Nope. That’s why I gave you A. B. C. D. Those are the options. I said hair doesn’t sweat because that person asked me why her hair is dry when I stated previously that it’s hard to dry off in a humid/damp jungle but i meant in general obviously — you go through bouts of being sweaty and bouts of drying off. The hair is dry, because hair in itself doesn’t sweat and could also have not been sticky, damp or dirty at that point:) Pretty straightforward.
Also, people are different — you sound very sweaty, maybe she wasn’t?
You sound like an exceptionally sweaty person so maybe don't project that. K+L never appear as sweaty people despite hiking all day uphill in the humid heat.
Hahaha I will comment as I see fit. If you don’t like it move on.
People sweat, specially on a tropical climate. Making conclusions off a few photos they took to look good doesn’t guarantee your conclusions are correct. Stop being ridiculous.
On the other hand locals been complaining in the comments, saying something does not add up to this man's story as it is near impossible to get lost where he was.
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13561269/Hiker-alive-lost-California-mountains-reveals-survived.html#comments](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13561269/Hiker-alive-lost-California-mountains-reveals-survived.html#comments)
I assume it is because, from a behind-the-computer point of view, things often seem simpler or easier. Perhaps the majority of people base their judgment on their own perspective and are quick to form conclusions.
Right and it’s perhaps a lot of folks who’ve never experienced the unrelenting ways of nature. Or been hiking for that matter. There are a lot of walking paths that can appear easy but no one usual ever prepares for anything going wrong. This is why day hikes are actually the most dangerous.
I just knew somebody was gonna post this story and the picture of that guy to try to prove that the girls were lost. I get it, we get it.People have survived out in the wilderness and the jungle for days on end.But again that has absolutely no bearing on the evidence of this case.
Well I did add that I don’t agree with the lost scenario, but I still posted it.
I thought it was interesting to apply what happened this hiker to K&L in a lost scenario. Of course people been lost, found, survived, but also something more nefarious may have happened too to K&L. And this being a somewhat similar event to what K&L may have faced, what they might have done for 8 days to survive, their condition, etc
Whether we are camp lost or camp foul play, none of us here can prove it so I don’t get the divide in this group. If you find something to discuss, share it, that’s the point of why we’re here.
It confirms people usually are found close to or in vicinity of where they got lost. In his case, he was found although he didn’t even tell anyone where he was going!
That’s why the fact K&L 1. weren’t found anywhere near the area of searches, and 2. the bone fragments were found miles away, is confounding
You can’t apply what happened in this case to K&L because a man alone doesn’t face the same dangers that a woman alone does. Or two women for the sake of the discussion.
“He was quickly found with the help of a sniffer dog.
Of course, if he had been kidnapped and murdered, he wouldn’t be found, nor would the evidence of murder. Maybe one could leave his backpack and some of his bones (where you cant determine absolutely anything) after a few weeks while completely disposing of everything else. Then we could say that he got lost and had an accident.
I agree. Even if hikers/their bodies are not immediately found, ***when*** found, they are not miles & miles away from the search area
Even if we assume the fast flowing, raising in wet seasons, river waters carried the bodies that far, it’s astounding ***both*** bodies’ fragments are found close to one another. That defies probability:)
This is a sniffer dog and search team going through terrain that had just been 97% burned a few years prior. I’m sure the underbrush was NOTHING compared to a lush jungle.
Did anyone discuss the possibility of one of them snapping and hurting the other one in a frenzied state of anger, anxiety? i never saw any discussion about this but it happens.
Getting lost in the wilderness just seems so very easy to do that I find it by far the hardest thing to rule out in this case.
It’s easy when you don’t pay attention and there’s no clear trail, I agree with that However, in this gentleman’s case (in the article), it does seem he relied on his “knowing the park” which he…clearly didn’t I don’t think K&L would make the same assumption about their surroundings
Honestly, people who think it is impossible to get lost in such locations have no clue what they are talking about. They look at a map think everything is so logical and easy. I have been in the army and I am a reasonably experienced hiker. People get lost under a lot less difficult conditions than this. Sometimes all you need is straying off course for 5 meters and you’re lost.
One look at the trail they were in on google earth and one can understand how easy it is to get lost.
I will have to politely disagree: the fact that nature was so overgrown or impenetrable ***outside*** of the trail path, speaks against they just ventured *into* it, no?…
We know they ventured in. We already know it. It’s not me saying that will change the fact. They went into it and died there; whether on their own or foul play. Plus it wasn’t overgrown, it is untouched rainforest. That is how it is always.
You said in the initial comment that Google Earth view suggests it’s easy to lose that trail I think it’s not easy to lose that trail as walking off that trail would be hampered by overgrown jungle and difficulty of terrain So, I agree, ***something*** other than losing the trail and getting lost, made them get off the trail
Google Earth doesn’t suggests, it shows. Go on google earth. It is deep rainforest and if you click on the little person it will show you the areas where there is image. You can see the photos people who hiked there took. It is jungle jungle. Easy to get lost not because they may have wondered off into impenetrable parts but because they kept going and at some point it becomes confusing to find where they came from. It is not like the paths are marked and well kept; it usually is just commonly used and thus overstepped or has a path that allows for passing but not necessarily created for it and it doesn’t mean that it is easy to spot. I don’t belong to either team “lost” or “faul play”. I know both are possible and this case just makes my heart hurt for them.
I did watch several videos of people walking the trail As a hiker, I didn’t see how you can just “walk into jungle” by mistake, the path walked by locals for years seems straightforward to follow, at least to paddocks But that’s not even the “lost” theory per se: people theorize the girls followed the *quebrada* to look for the waterfall and then got lost If that was the case, they could have just walked back along the same *quebrada*, after they found the waterfall or didn’t find it Yes it’s very sad because the families were probably left with many questions (as we have them in discussion forums since) and if the investigation was more thorough, probably there would have been less doubts left about “official version”
The trail and the forest itself is [so easy to get lost they even put markers on the pictures online 🤣](https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g298424-d19882255-Reviews-Sendero_El_Pianista-Boquete_Chiriqui_Province.html) I’ve hiked in the rainforest before. I consider it super easy to get lost. You see one thing when you walk through towards one direction, when you turn around you see a completely different thing and it is confusing. I don’t know what the quebrada means in this case. I know what the word means but not in relation to that trail. Indeed, it is so confusing, all the mismatched details and all the different characters at play here. I don’t know what to think. To me the most haunting thing is how long they were there alive and no one found them.
*Quebrada 1* is a first stream they crossed (pic 508), it’s a Spanish word for a brook/stream, as I understand it I don’t think our discussion is about ***general*** possibility of getting lost in rainforest, or anywhere else for that matter I think our discussion is about ***this particular trail*** AND under the weather conditions on that day I never hiked on rainforest trails but I’ve hiked a lot in both forested as well as rocky mountain areas, both with well marked trails, and no-trails, where you have to navigate to your destination and back by topo-map in your head and cairns only:) And I did it solo many times. Several hikers-both local and tourists-went missing in my area but their bodies were always found a few days later, nearby the trail/path. In all death cases, it was either slip&fall, or fall caused by medical distress (heatstroke, for example). I got “lost” twice myself (I put it in parentheses coz it wasn’t that dramatic, I didn’t have to spend the night coz I found my way before the sunset:), once due to snow blizzard covering the trail, and once by hiking with someone who - like a subject of this article - “knew” the way:) Lesson learned here:) So, those are some of my experiences. I don’t want to make this comment a novel:) but maybe next time i’ll share my thoughts, feelings, and actions when for a few hours I *did* think it could turn into overnighter:) It wasn’t turning off my phone, Ill tell u that much I agree with you, not being found is very puzzling in the context of “official scenario” as it would have appeared they hiked almost *parallel* to the trail (since the shorts were found close to 2nd bridge, the bridge ***on the trail***) I would like to learn more about you rainforest hiking, can you share some of your experiences?…
No. My point was absolutely how much people, specially tourists, underestimate the beast that a rainforest really is and how easy it is to get lost there. Coming from a small country, where a walk in a forest trail is a part of daily life and the forests look copy paste of the same tree until the eye can see. I can totally see them underestimating how big and confusing the terrain is and being overwhelmed. The weather conditions of the day were fine, as far as I understood. If you have done it before, you are already more experienced than most. And being lucky to find the way back or make the an important decision of turning around and what not at the correct time. I don’t have too many histories to share. I was never alone and even in a group, following a map there were parts that were unclear about where was the correct “trail”. There was a trail but no markings or signage. It is always an adventure of braving the surroundings and the environment. If we had gotten lost we would have been in big big trouble and the area was so vast we could have gone unfound. I don’t have much more to say about it, other than it taught me not to underestimate it.
I don’t think anyone questions people can get lost I got lost twice… for a little bit, then found my way I think people question K&L’s getting lost as the simple and singular explanation for their demise…
Who said that it is impossible? It’s even possible to accidentally drown in your own bathroom.
Do you think that was my point?
Nope. Just saying
So that happened just next to Silicon Valley… wow! Yeah, conditions in June there might be rather similar to conditions in Boquete. He survived 10 days drinking water from a creek and that is what I would expect the girls did. And his main issue was hypothermia. Again, expected. The girls were two, so the risk from hypothermia is much lower than for shirtless individuals, but certainly not negligible. It remains all a mystery.
https://paulkirtley.co.uk/2010/hypothermia/ Have you read all of the things you must do once you become hypothermic — to not die? People get hypothermia in large groups, well prepared and clothed correctly all the time. The fact that there were two of them means absolutely nothing without a sleeping bag (and this would have only been marginally helpful) …but it would explain why they were lying next to each other in the night photos. The girls were in tank tops…honestly, not much better than shirtless (as far as hypothermia is concerned). “Sweating can cause hypothermia, a condition that occurs when the body loses heat faster than it can produce. Hypothermia can happen in very cold temperatures, but it can also occur in cool temperatures above 40°F if someone becomes chilled from sweat, rain, or being in cold water for a long time.” They would not have had ways to dry off well, if at all in the humidity of the jungle.
How are the Hair from Kris so clean and Dry compared to his if the Jungle make it hard to dry things ? :/
Hair doesn’t sweat :/
Of course it does. My hair constantly gets soaked through at least one 4 fingers from scalp on hot days or extreme exercise. To the point that it takes ages to dry back again.
That is your SCALP sweating…not your HAIR. The night photos were taken at night, she’d likely cooled down and her hair was dry at that point. We also do not (clearly) see scalp in the photo. And it’s unlikely they were exercising or walking around much beyond the first few days. No food. No energy.
Well, my shirt doesn’t sweat either but it does get soaked with sweat, same as hair. My point is not to discuss if hair has sweat glands. Ofc it doesn’t. But that doesn’t destroy the possibility of wet, sticky, dirty hair. The length may be cleaner but since we don’t know which part we are seeing, we can assume it isnt the scalp behind it.
We know hair can get wet and dry out. It can even get wet again. It can dry again too. What’s your point? It was dry in the photo. Her hair was either A. Never wet B. Wet and then dried out C. Dry because it was not raining, she wasn’t in water and she wasn’t sweating in the middle of the night when the photo was taken. D. She was no longer living in the photo and the dead don’t sweat.
You responded to another person that hair doesn’t sweat. Indeed it doesn’t but it gets sweaty. I agree with your point that in the middle of the night she probably wasnt sweating but that doesn’t mean it didn’t before and depending on the temperature it could still be sticky humid and dirty from it. Which is what the other person was asking about. Has it been established she was dead in the hair photo? I missed that somehow.
Nope. That’s why I gave you A. B. C. D. Those are the options. I said hair doesn’t sweat because that person asked me why her hair is dry when I stated previously that it’s hard to dry off in a humid/damp jungle but i meant in general obviously — you go through bouts of being sweaty and bouts of drying off. The hair is dry, because hair in itself doesn’t sweat and could also have not been sticky, damp or dirty at that point:) Pretty straightforward. Also, people are different — you sound very sweaty, maybe she wasn’t?
You sound like an exceptionally sweaty person so maybe don't project that. K+L never appear as sweaty people despite hiking all day uphill in the humid heat.
Hahaha I will comment as I see fit. If you don’t like it move on. People sweat, specially on a tropical climate. Making conclusions off a few photos they took to look good doesn’t guarantee your conclusions are correct. Stop being ridiculous.
dont be so alarmed plz
Have been trying… 😅
Really don’t get the lost scenario. Kids, people have went missing in the jungle before and don’t turn into bones after a month or two.
Yes they do. Once a body dies…it will become bones in two weeks. Add in torrential rain, humidity, rivers, jungle animals, insects and vultures.
On the other hand locals been complaining in the comments, saying something does not add up to this man's story as it is near impossible to get lost where he was. [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13561269/Hiker-alive-lost-California-mountains-reveals-survived.html#comments](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13561269/Hiker-alive-lost-California-mountains-reveals-survived.html#comments)
I read that he is partially blind as well. Of course people say “it’s impossible” all the time, that still doesn’t make it impossible.
I assume it is because, from a behind-the-computer point of view, things often seem simpler or easier. Perhaps the majority of people base their judgment on their own perspective and are quick to form conclusions.
Right and it’s perhaps a lot of folks who’ve never experienced the unrelenting ways of nature. Or been hiking for that matter. There are a lot of walking paths that can appear easy but no one usual ever prepares for anything going wrong. This is why day hikes are actually the most dangerous.
I just knew somebody was gonna post this story and the picture of that guy to try to prove that the girls were lost. I get it, we get it.People have survived out in the wilderness and the jungle for days on end.But again that has absolutely no bearing on the evidence of this case.
Well I did add that I don’t agree with the lost scenario, but I still posted it. I thought it was interesting to apply what happened this hiker to K&L in a lost scenario. Of course people been lost, found, survived, but also something more nefarious may have happened too to K&L. And this being a somewhat similar event to what K&L may have faced, what they might have done for 8 days to survive, their condition, etc Whether we are camp lost or camp foul play, none of us here can prove it so I don’t get the divide in this group. If you find something to discuss, share it, that’s the point of why we’re here.
It confirms people usually are found close to or in vicinity of where they got lost. In his case, he was found although he didn’t even tell anyone where he was going! That’s why the fact K&L 1. weren’t found anywhere near the area of searches, and 2. the bone fragments were found miles away, is confounding
You can’t apply what happened in this case to K&L because a man alone doesn’t face the same dangers that a woman alone does. Or two women for the sake of the discussion.
[удалено]
Why would they get angry?
“He was quickly found with the help of a sniffer dog. Of course, if he had been kidnapped and murdered, he wouldn’t be found, nor would the evidence of murder. Maybe one could leave his backpack and some of his bones (where you cant determine absolutely anything) after a few weeks while completely disposing of everything else. Then we could say that he got lost and had an accident.
I agree. Even if hikers/their bodies are not immediately found, ***when*** found, they are not miles & miles away from the search area Even if we assume the fast flowing, raising in wet seasons, river waters carried the bodies that far, it’s astounding ***both*** bodies’ fragments are found close to one another. That defies probability:)
This is a sniffer dog and search team going through terrain that had just been 97% burned a few years prior. I’m sure the underbrush was NOTHING compared to a lush jungle.
bullshit, totally different situation.
Yes but there are a lot of similarities too.
Did anyone discuss the possibility of one of them snapping and hurting the other one in a frenzied state of anger, anxiety? i never saw any discussion about this but it happens.