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i bought my car for 5k, but it was worth 8k according to fair value. DMV sees that discrepancy and thinks i’m skirting taxes. i got a quote from a body shop to account for the price difference and they said, oh cool, nevermind then.
It's not unrealized gains that are the issue. It's the way they use unrealized gains as collateral, how they use dividends to perpetually exploit companies for growth pushing them further and further into cannibalizing themselves for profit. There's so much more wrong here than taxing unrealized gains. That would just fuck everyone currently trying to get ahead playing their game.
Leveraged buyouts are especially fucked. This is where capitalists will purchase a business with loans, using the companies assets they are purchasing as collateral on the loan.
I still don't understand why it's not totally illegal.
If unrealized gains start getting taxed I'm gonna be pissed. Lol I have so many tiny little holdings that added all together being taxed and giving me absolutely no money currently, would equal to a lot of taxes. Screw that. Just stop people from being allowed to use stocks as collateral.
I don't want to be that guy, but actually there aren't. Without a tax on capital (or a very heavy tax on inheritance), we will continue to see a rising concentration of wealth. There is no other way around it, and it's not that complicated to see why: return on capital is greater than growth. That is to say, those with capital will always get more capital, and disproportionately to those with less capital, and those who acquire their capital through normal income will always be outpaced (on average) by those with income from capital. If humans didn't die, this would end by one person owning the world... and since inheritance isn't (generally) taxed, we're effectively seeing exactly that. Tax wealth, or seize inheritance. There's no other way out.
The inheritance piece needs to be approached with caution. As Boomers and GENX age, inheritance may be the only legit chance that many millennials and Gen Z have for home ownership. I agree with taxing those that are handing down 10+ figure empires, but getting taxed out the ass because grandma left you a 2 bedroom house that hasn’t had significant maintenance since the 1980s is only going to hurt those that may actually be getting on level footing for once.
The estate tax used to be paid on estates of $5m+. Now that figure is $10m+. I think it can be brought back to $5m without completely wiping out grandma’s assets - if she hasn’t already leveraged them to the hilt on reverse mortgages and elder care.
there are plenty of other ways around it, taxing capital itself will just result in moving it to tax havens. instead of just adding taxes (which will get undone later), why not change the mechanisms that concentrate that capital?
Why? Normal people already get taxed on unrealized value through home ownership and property taxes. The rich would actually be getting a better deal: instead of paying tax on the total value, they’d pay only on the value increase for the year. I wish my homeownership tax was only based on how much the house appreciated!
besides, where else would you place the tax burden? No matter where you put it, they’ll just convert it to capital and claim zero. Income? I don’t earn money, I’m paid in stocks. Real estate? I don’t own it, my LLC does. Transactions? I didn’t buy the yacht, I traded it for 500 financial derivatives that require a research team to evaluate.
Sorry, I didn't realize I made gains, being that they were unrealized. Is it okay if I pay unrealized taxes with unrealized money to cover the difference?
Well the problem is that for these billionaires, the money is not unrealized.
They take loans and lines of credit by putting up their assets/stocks as collateral.
You can call it a "loan" but that's the cash they use to perpetually grow their wealth when their initial line of credit was only 100 million to begin with.
I was replying to someone saying "unrealized gains" which is different than getting taxed on the base principle cost like property taxes.
An effective wealth tax would have to address international markets, and private equity to not just hit retirees
retirees sometimes have a house but little liquid assets so increasing taxes on property makes them mad. More affordable housing would address people's homes being their indirect savings account.
Increasing taxes in one country leads to capital flight and using shell companies in other jurisdictions with more favorable tax law. see panama papers hiding the owner.
Basically without global agreements taxes don't really effect the top 0.1% and the middle class ends up paying a higher percentage.
when you buy a car here you bring in the title transfer slip and on it you declare how much you paid for it. you then pay tax on that amount, rolled into the registration fee. income taxes is different because you are compiling and declaring all your varied incomes and then paying based on that. not all of our income necessarily gets reported by employers so the state relies on us to properly declare it. essentially it’s a means to maximise tax revenue by capturing as much of the cash based economy as possible.
My father in law wrote me a receipt of purchase for $1 on a truck he sold me for $10k and the clerk didn't bat an eye. I tried to give her a dollar and she pulled some change out of her own pocket and paid my tax herself lol.
More so them trying to get people who are committing fraud. X sells Y a car for $10k. Y gets the title and a receipt saying they paid $1k. When they register the car, they only have to pay taxes on the $1k the receipt states they paid.
Taxing a vehicle multiple times is fraud.
Tax was paid when it was originally sold new.
Taxing every transaction after that fact is double dipping.
Some vehicles if they change hands enough have more taxes paid on them than the original value of the vehicle.
Taxes are paid when transactions happen. That's the nature of taxes, whether it's a sales tax, income tax, or an inheritance tax. Money and goods/ services change hands, and the government takes its cut. A change in title is no different, car ownership was exchanged for money.
The same dollar being spent over and over from consumer to business back to buy more product etc will eventually become worthless because of how many times its taxed when changing hands. No wonder we have such crazy inflation.
Eh, current inflation is mostly [profit taking by corporations](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/27/inflation-corporate-america-increased-prices-profits) . You're essentially being stolen from, not because corporations wouldn't have made money, but because they would have made slightly less. These extra dollars being funneled to corporations largely go to stock buybacks, meaning it's a direct wealth transfer from the poorest Americans [to the richest.](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-own-a-record-89percent-of-all-us-stocks.html)
You have to pay state tax on vehicles yearly in the US. That's why people try to scam the system and get it registered at a lower point of sale. This decreases the yearly tax owed.
Where I live, they *expect* you to lie, I remember my brother bought a car, I told him to say he paid $200 for it (guy's a friend of a friend, he said he would have rolled with it), but he was scared of being caught so he reported the real price ($14k), lady at the county clerk office was like, "I'm just gonna write down $4k (about the price of a used Miata in this area)" lol.
But holy shit, that $14k was worth it, this thing was a 2000 5 speed with **12,000 miles on it!** It looked like it hardly seen the sun and the guy who had it first changed the oil every 2,500 miles. Thing runs like a top.
One time I went to register a car that I had bought for $2700 and when I handed over the bill of sale, the dmv clerk said “oh honey I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see this and we’re gonna go with the KBB value of $600.”
She was cool.
Edit: before anybody asks why the fuck I spent $2700 on a $600 car - it was a Nissan 240sx. If you know anything about the market for those cars, you should understand lol.
I do not know about the market for those cars, whats the reason?
I come from the Harry Crews school of thought on vehicles, so my dumb self doesn't know how to do anything but maintain the tool I require.
Basically a bunch of fuckin morons (myself included) have inflated the ever loving shit out of the values because they’re one of the OG drift car platforms. “Drift tax” is unfortunately a very real thing.
To expand, they got popular as a tuner car because they are typically rear wheel drive, were relatively inexpensive, lots of parts available, and the drivetrain is solid. As more and more became tuner cars and got trashed and they got older and older, there aren't very many that are in good condition and unmodified.
Their demand hasn't really gone down as new young people get into tuning so price goes up. Then COVID happened and prices are made up so if you have one you can ask wherever you want for it and someone will pay it
Oh I won't get into the damn thing to save my life. Those little go karts scare the hell out of me, plus I feel like an origami doll getting in and out of them. My family, all short people (*Randy Newman music intensifies*), hate my truck for similar size based issues. My uncle, 6'8", drives a miata, no idea how he does it, though much like the Tootsie Roll Pop, I will unfortunately never know the answer.
People do lie about the price they paid for their vehicles all the time, in order to minimize the taxes they pay on the vehicle. I'm not saying that's what the person with the food truck was doing, but when amount claimed differs greatly from the estimated true value of the vehicle, they have a reason to be suspicious.
Not really. I'm sure there would be a lot of people around lying about their vehicle costs if they didn't. Where I am we don't even report the cost. It's all based on a valuation similar to Kelly Blue Book.
No, what's ridiculous are all the fees they come up with. It's total bullshit. They should lie. I commend them for lying. Fuck those fees and fuck the government for financially raping everyone, in every way they possibly can.
Property tax. His friend probably bought it and fixed it up, then once they were ready to put it on the road the dmw valued it much higher than it cost him or he could sell it for. This jacks up the property tax that needs paid to register it
What's wild is that they will always disagree with what your insurance calls the car worth; insurance wanted to write it off a dent and a mirror on a 15 year old car for 2.6k or 1500 owner repair and service ontario was trying to tell me buying the car off my friend would value it at 6k (making the tax alone more than the repairs it actually needed)
DMV attempted to charge me $100 more in taxes in 2021 than I paid in 2020 because of their over inflated estimates. When I pointed this out because I meticulously kept my reciepts, they dropped it to $5 under the price I paid in 2020.
I bought a Subaru for $1500. The lady at the dmv said that the book value was $4300 and wanted to know why I got “such a deal on it.” I said “you can get a car for that cheap too! Just buy a car with a dead transmission and then repair it yourself!”
That shut her up.
Are they saying that's what it cost or that's what it's worth? Where I live they don't care about what you paid for it, the look up the value of it and that's the number you pay tax on to register it.
DMV can say whatever they want. A signed bill of sale is all they can go off of. If I want to sell a brand new Lamborghini to my cousin for $259.75 or a 2004 Honda Accord for 259,750.00, I'm allowed to do that.
Yes, but what if I just don’t pay my taxes? You ever thought about that, numbers boy! I bet it’s super easy to get away with and nobody ever goes to jail for it even if caught! I’m immortal!
Here in Washington they have a known value for a vehicle. If my purchase is within $xx of that value, i pay tax on that (so if they say $10k, and I paid between $9-11k I pay tax on 10k)
If my purchase was outside of that “reasonable” range, I have to get a form signed by me and the seller that states why (Buyer/Seller Declaration of Value”
$10k car, I paid 5k because of bad paint/transmission/blood spray on ceiling/etc and then I pay tax on the actual paid value.
It's a tax scam. They're claiming an overvaluation on the property in order to demand more property taxes. Resident will need to hire an attorney and take the county to court or they'll be on the hook for additional annual taxes.
Late stage capitalism doing what it do. Nothing to see here, pay your scammed taxes and move on. And if you get stopped on the road with cash on the way to pay those taxes, and you get pulled over and the cops charge *your money* with a crime and confiscate it, also, nothing to see here. Late stage capitalism doing what it do.
My grandfather got taxed off family farm land back in the 90s as the state was taxing based on either the amount he was making with the land or the amount they estimated he should be making with the land (it wasn’t an active farm anymore).
The tax bill forced him to sell to a suspiciously well connected real estate developer for far less than it was really worth.
Only consolation price was the house and carriage house (barn fell over in a heavy snow storm) on the land was as old as the USA itself so he couldn’t tear it down to build his subdivision. Had to get approval for everything and keep the old house. He ended up adding to it to connect the carriage house and farm house into one big building, spent extra to keep it all historic society kosher, then chopped up the back acreage into some kinda ugly ass subdivision.
No one on our end got “rich” from it and none of us get to bring our kids or reflect on our family’s agricultural roots through all the history that was stored in that basement and on that land.
Anyways, yeah. Usually when weird shit like this is being taxed hard there is some scummy developer behind the curtains doing deals with whoever sets the millage to force old people to leave so they can make millions more.
I highly recommend anyone and everyone to get their properties privately appraised to fight their taxes. A lot of times you are assessed way above value due to the way counties calculate assessment. This is absurd
The most unfortunate thing was the time I nearly caught my barn on fire with a paper sky lantern that went wonky. It would have been terrible but thankfully it didn’t happen to me. It would be an awful and preventable accident.
Oh exactly! I mean it certainly was an accident but gosh I would have felt terrible if I’d burned down my barn. I’m sure anyone could make that mistake though, so I would never shame anyone if this happened because it nearly happened to me.
It's a whole racket here in Jackson County. My girlfriend owns her home and her property value went up 48% in a year. There's currently an appeal process and class action lawsuit because of the assessments.
Theres so many more screen shots I could post to here from the community FB groups. Every single day I see exactly what youre describing- property value just skyrocketing and the people are so anxious. Im glad to hear SOMETHING is happening from it. Im not holding my breath. I dont understand how this can just…happen.
It's pretty scary stuff! She's currently at an appeals workshop that looks to have a pretty huge turnout. Apparently there's decent news coverage at the event as well, so there might be some actual coverage on what's going on.
A link about the workshop:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kctv5.com/2023/06/27/tax-appeal-workshop-location-changed-tuesday-due-overwhelming-response/%3foutputType=amp
[Here’s a 250 square foot shed for sale on Long Island for about $600k.](https://www.reddit.com/r/longisland/comments/14kgbak/i_grew_up_still_live_on_the_east_endso_its_hard/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
yes, in this case most likely to get their new stadium built for the KC Royals. But even in general, it's how they force the current owners to sell when they want the property.
So yes, capitalists are lobbying for higher property taxes.
Yes.
The fewer private citizens that own their own homes and property means more opportunities for the upper level of capitalists and corporations to own and monetize those homes and properties.
Or have you not been watching the housing market?
No, gentrification is when a working class part of town is being targeted by new middle class people moving in. They can affoard to buy homes and raise rents, which prices out the original working class low income folks, who most often are renter. They get pushed out of their trendy neighbourhoods by a more wealthy, usually white people by making it impossible to affoard to rent there anymore.
This also pushes out small local buissnesses in favour of trendy brand store chains and restaurants, that the original people can't affoard to use.
Side note - the useful stores tend to go away, replaced by little boutique places that are some trust-fund kid's hobby store that they open for two hours a day to sell "local crafts".
Yeah, that's great good for you, but I'd rather have the old butcher shop, drug store and hardware store back, please.
Sadly it is always happening, almost everywhere. And cityplanners and many other people see it as a good thing. They only see less "riff raff", less crime, more services and nicer stores coming in. Only a few gives a fuck about the peoole that are being pushed out.
What irritates me the most, is how many don't even realize that they are gentrifying. They are some edjucated young couples with some cash and good jobs, who how ever may not affoard to live in the city centre and don't want to leave for the suburbs. So they see the lower cost of living areas and put up shop there. They might even be trying to find some 'authentic city vibes' and the culture of those areas. It's like appropriation, they come in, displace the old and turn it into the areas they often left because of higher cost of living. And then in comes Starbucks on every corner. And god forbid, the endless "short term rental" buissnesses like Airbnb, or as I like to call them, the leeches.
I don't think it's that malicious in reality though obviously has shitty consequences. It typically starts with a city trying to fix a part of town that is falling apart and few businesses survive. They attract outside investors who improve the commercial real estate in the area and then the improvements drive more demand which is what allows them to price rent at higher rates.
Those improvements wouldn't happen otherwise. Even if the city just made improvements themselves, which they couldn't, demand would increase because it is now a nicer area. Thus pricing people out anyways
So nothing can be done and it's good, at least a neutral sideneffect, that to spruce up some areas, the poor get pushed out?
It is just as malicious as it sounds. Those people lose homes and need to move further away, into areas with less job prospects. Food and banking deserts. Into further poverty. And that should just be accepted as a price for improving neighbourhoods? It doesn't need to be that way. Alot can be done to improve livinareas and not push out residents at the same time.
The improvement would be to raise wages and make better jobs more accessible to the poor. But as I said, if you fix up buildings and streets, which is what cities do, it will price people out even if you kick nobody out.
Although this isn't gentrification, it does feel like a close cousin.
When property taxes go up, anyone who doesn't have the income to maintain those expenses will essentially get shoved out of their house. And then since so many homes are being bought up by real estate companies that rent them out, owning a home will eventually become entirely unattainable *even in low population areas*.
Shoe box sized houses selling for $500k won't just be a coastal city thing, it'll become the norm even in the Midwest. At least at this rate.
you are just describing symptoms of bigger systemic housing injustice, the middle class isn't targeting anything, everyone just wants a place they can afford to live
I live in Oak Grove. My house doubled in value because Jackson County did a drive by exterior assessment of the value. Gotta get that new Royals stadium downtown...
I am very involved in my neighborhood association part of Jackson county. One of our residents taxes increased by 300%, another by 237%, another by 120% and another by 98%. These are just some of them I know and the reason is just these BS appraisals. The only reason they are appraising so high is the real estate housing prices bubble. None of these home owners have been able to make any improvements to their houses. We are in one of the poorest neighborhoods. It’s heartbreaking not to know how to help. I’m still a renter because we can’t afford to buy. What’s worse, of these houses I listed, 2 of them have roofs that poor water when it rains. Holes in the walls from the outside. Plumbing problems. Possibly foundation problems. They are on waiting lists for assistance to try and get them fixed because they can’t fix them. But their value has increased by 300 and 237 percent?
There's a reason California voters passed Prop 13 decades ago, to reign in this kind of inflated assessments. Propositions in California, when passed by direct vote, are changes to the Constitution, meaning our Senate/Assembly are hamstrung in changing it, though they've certainly tried. (Now they've added "fees" to try and get around it, mostly successfully)
Might be time for some Prop 13 in states that abuse their property tax rates and assessments.
Why are they acting like trump. If the city is responsible for the damage it’s worth $1,000, if it’s for tax assessment purposes it’s worth $35,000. Based on the comps of course /s
It is insane and it's only gonna get worse, because the assholes who set prices are out of touch with reality, and we are too meek to or busy with the grind to check them.
If the land is worth enough wouldn't it pretty much be the worth of the taxes? I own a townhouse in a populated area with barely a backyard and it adds it to the value. Does this county do differently?
Detroit did this for *years*. Back in the mid 90's, the house I grew up in was on the market for $6000 (yeah, it was in a shitty neighborhood), and the city assessed it at $60,000 (for tax purposes, of course). We tried telling the assessor that the house was on the market for 10% of the assessed value *and it wasn't selling*. He laughed and said he heard that from a lot of people. We ended up giving the house away to a contractor.
This is something antilandlord crowd seems to miss. Unless owner is a multimilionere, this is how owner are fucked by the system. We're in this shit together, we are supposed to loose everything and be happy about it.
Just today, my country dropped a hidden tax basicaly increasing taxes by 30%. Just so.
It was unbearable before, now it makes sense to just sell it all and move to a SEA country for early retirement of booze and drugs, becasue fuck anybody under 100 million worth.
antilandlord people aren't angry at owners because they ''own'' the place they live in...
antilanlord peoples are angry because landlord own buildings they don't live in!
Not assholes that behave like bottom of the barrel scum? Cause, seriosuly, I was blissfully unaware how much freedom landlord have in US. Morality aside, jfc, it's just bad practice to be such an ass as stories describe.
Why would anyone buy a property for which they had to pay taxes on a 35k shed. Owning property isn’t sunshine and rainbows if the property you own is valueless and the assessor has been tasked with extracting as much cash from you as possible
Oh no boo hoo a property owner who has seen her networth skyrocket is crying because she has to pay the tax on that. Maybe stop eating so much barista made coffee and drinking so much avocado toast and you'd be able to afford your property tax. Or just sell the land so some housing can be built on it.
OR has a law that taxable value can't increase more than 3% in a year.
Unfortunately, it can decrease in a year to market rate, so it only goes one way.
Also it means that pay rates for civil employees don't keep up with local housing prices, as rent goes up faster than the tax base.
But it's designed to correct these kinds of issues.
Even if it was a 35k dollar shed... whoes business is that besides her? Why does she have to prove what she has on HER property, that she owns... if she had a shed made of gold what of it?
And then on the other end of the spectrum, county appraisers usually undervalue larger, more valuable homes compared to what they sell for on the market.
Would enjoy it if property taxes were based on the owner's ability to pay not market speculation. Its dumb how a person can be systematically pushed off their land.
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I know someone opening a food truck They bought the truck for $14k and got it fixed DMV says they are lying and that it actually cost them $49k
Wouldn’t they have receipts?
i bought my car for 5k, but it was worth 8k according to fair value. DMV sees that discrepancy and thinks i’m skirting taxes. i got a quote from a body shop to account for the price difference and they said, oh cool, nevermind then.
And yet, the idea that rich people might ever have to pay taxes on unrealized gains is just too damn much.
It's not unrealized gains that are the issue. It's the way they use unrealized gains as collateral, how they use dividends to perpetually exploit companies for growth pushing them further and further into cannibalizing themselves for profit. There's so much more wrong here than taxing unrealized gains. That would just fuck everyone currently trying to get ahead playing their game.
Leveraged buyouts are especially fucked. This is where capitalists will purchase a business with loans, using the companies assets they are purchasing as collateral on the loan. I still don't understand why it's not totally illegal.
Well that's capitalism for ya
[удалено]
If unrealized gains start getting taxed I'm gonna be pissed. Lol I have so many tiny little holdings that added all together being taxed and giving me absolutely no money currently, would equal to a lot of taxes. Screw that. Just stop people from being allowed to use stocks as collateral.
There are plenty of better places to tax the rich than unrealized gains.
I don't want to be that guy, but actually there aren't. Without a tax on capital (or a very heavy tax on inheritance), we will continue to see a rising concentration of wealth. There is no other way around it, and it's not that complicated to see why: return on capital is greater than growth. That is to say, those with capital will always get more capital, and disproportionately to those with less capital, and those who acquire their capital through normal income will always be outpaced (on average) by those with income from capital. If humans didn't die, this would end by one person owning the world... and since inheritance isn't (generally) taxed, we're effectively seeing exactly that. Tax wealth, or seize inheritance. There's no other way out.
The inheritance piece needs to be approached with caution. As Boomers and GENX age, inheritance may be the only legit chance that many millennials and Gen Z have for home ownership. I agree with taxing those that are handing down 10+ figure empires, but getting taxed out the ass because grandma left you a 2 bedroom house that hasn’t had significant maintenance since the 1980s is only going to hurt those that may actually be getting on level footing for once.
The estate tax used to be paid on estates of $5m+. Now that figure is $10m+. I think it can be brought back to $5m without completely wiping out grandma’s assets - if she hasn’t already leveraged them to the hilt on reverse mortgages and elder care.
0$ should be the actual figure. Force them to prove this fake meritocracy of them. Invest the money on public education, healthcare and housing.
Zero is ridiculous. That’s the poor and middle class not being able to leave ANYTHING to their kids, not just rich people.
there are plenty of other ways around it, taxing capital itself will just result in moving it to tax havens. instead of just adding taxes (which will get undone later), why not change the mechanisms that concentrate that capital?
What tax lol
Why? Normal people already get taxed on unrealized value through home ownership and property taxes. The rich would actually be getting a better deal: instead of paying tax on the total value, they’d pay only on the value increase for the year. I wish my homeownership tax was only based on how much the house appreciated! besides, where else would you place the tax burden? No matter where you put it, they’ll just convert it to capital and claim zero. Income? I don’t earn money, I’m paid in stocks. Real estate? I don’t own it, my LLC does. Transactions? I didn’t buy the yacht, I traded it for 500 financial derivatives that require a research team to evaluate.
How about nobody pays taxes on unrealized gains?
Sorry, I didn't realize I made gains, being that they were unrealized. Is it okay if I pay unrealized taxes with unrealized money to cover the difference?
Well the problem is that for these billionaires, the money is not unrealized. They take loans and lines of credit by putting up their assets/stocks as collateral. You can call it a "loan" but that's the cash they use to perpetually grow their wealth when their initial line of credit was only 100 million to begin with.
Would they get tax credits for unrealized losses?
Your portfolio is a house. You pay property tax on your house every year. If your house value goes down, you pay less tax.
I was replying to someone saying "unrealized gains" which is different than getting taxed on the base principle cost like property taxes. An effective wealth tax would have to address international markets, and private equity to not just hit retirees
How is it different, or rather, why can't it be treated similarly? What is the difficulty in addressing international markets and retirees?
retirees sometimes have a house but little liquid assets so increasing taxes on property makes them mad. More affordable housing would address people's homes being their indirect savings account. Increasing taxes in one country leads to capital flight and using shell companies in other jurisdictions with more favorable tax law. see panama papers hiding the owner. Basically without global agreements taxes don't really effect the top 0.1% and the middle class ends up paying a higher percentage.
Ur tax system is so bizarre, why is it the responsibility of the citizen to report taxes and not the state
when you buy a car here you bring in the title transfer slip and on it you declare how much you paid for it. you then pay tax on that amount, rolled into the registration fee. income taxes is different because you are compiling and declaring all your varied incomes and then paying based on that. not all of our income necessarily gets reported by employers so the state relies on us to properly declare it. essentially it’s a means to maximise tax revenue by capturing as much of the cash based economy as possible.
My father in law wrote me a receipt of purchase for $1 on a truck he sold me for $10k and the clerk didn't bat an eye. I tried to give her a dollar and she pulled some change out of her own pocket and paid my tax herself lol.
More so them trying to get people who are committing fraud. X sells Y a car for $10k. Y gets the title and a receipt saying they paid $1k. When they register the car, they only have to pay taxes on the $1k the receipt states they paid.
Taxing a vehicle multiple times is fraud. Tax was paid when it was originally sold new. Taxing every transaction after that fact is double dipping. Some vehicles if they change hands enough have more taxes paid on them than the original value of the vehicle.
Taxes are paid when transactions happen. That's the nature of taxes, whether it's a sales tax, income tax, or an inheritance tax. Money and goods/ services change hands, and the government takes its cut. A change in title is no different, car ownership was exchanged for money.
>Taxes are paid when transactions happen. This guy ain't never been to a yard sale
Y'all aren't paying taxes from yard sales?
The same dollar being spent over and over from consumer to business back to buy more product etc will eventually become worthless because of how many times its taxed when changing hands. No wonder we have such crazy inflation.
Eh, current inflation is mostly [profit taking by corporations](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/27/inflation-corporate-america-increased-prices-profits) . You're essentially being stolen from, not because corporations wouldn't have made money, but because they would have made slightly less. These extra dollars being funneled to corporations largely go to stock buybacks, meaning it's a direct wealth transfer from the poorest Americans [to the richest.](https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/the-wealthiest-10percent-of-americans-own-a-record-89percent-of-all-us-stocks.html)
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It's pretty appalling to me that in ostensibly a socialist sub that garbage is +45 or so. "Taxation is crime" is a fucking wild take to me.
You have to pay state tax on vehicles yearly in the US. That's why people try to scam the system and get it registered at a lower point of sale. This decreases the yearly tax owed.
State tax here on vehicles is assessed by the state based on the value of the vehicle, not anything anyone paid.
The vehicle is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, at least in a free market.
What does that matter? I’m confused who cares what the dmv says? Its not their right
Some states base vehicle registration fees on initial purchase price or DMV estimation IIRC
But to say a person is lying ab price? Thats ridiculous
Initial sale price is searchable via VIN, the gov will always get their cash
Yeah but u can lie ab that too😂 did it w my car
Where I live, they *expect* you to lie, I remember my brother bought a car, I told him to say he paid $200 for it (guy's a friend of a friend, he said he would have rolled with it), but he was scared of being caught so he reported the real price ($14k), lady at the county clerk office was like, "I'm just gonna write down $4k (about the price of a used Miata in this area)" lol. But holy shit, that $14k was worth it, this thing was a 2000 5 speed with **12,000 miles on it!** It looked like it hardly seen the sun and the guy who had it first changed the oil every 2,500 miles. Thing runs like a top.
One time I went to register a car that I had bought for $2700 and when I handed over the bill of sale, the dmv clerk said “oh honey I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see this and we’re gonna go with the KBB value of $600.” She was cool. Edit: before anybody asks why the fuck I spent $2700 on a $600 car - it was a Nissan 240sx. If you know anything about the market for those cars, you should understand lol.
I do not know about the market for those cars, whats the reason? I come from the Harry Crews school of thought on vehicles, so my dumb self doesn't know how to do anything but maintain the tool I require.
Basically a bunch of fuckin morons (myself included) have inflated the ever loving shit out of the values because they’re one of the OG drift car platforms. “Drift tax” is unfortunately a very real thing.
To expand, they got popular as a tuner car because they are typically rear wheel drive, were relatively inexpensive, lots of parts available, and the drivetrain is solid. As more and more became tuner cars and got trashed and they got older and older, there aren't very many that are in good condition and unmodified. Their demand hasn't really gone down as new young people get into tuning so price goes up. Then COVID happened and prices are made up so if you have one you can ask wherever you want for it and someone will pay it
Drift tax lol
Good luck, brother. Every time I tried to spin a ton, I got 2 turns and - bam - it would fall over. I hope she lasts longer than 2 trips to the store.
Oh I won't get into the damn thing to save my life. Those little go karts scare the hell out of me, plus I feel like an origami doll getting in and out of them. My family, all short people (*Randy Newman music intensifies*), hate my truck for similar size based issues. My uncle, 6'8", drives a miata, no idea how he does it, though much like the Tootsie Roll Pop, I will unfortunately never know the answer.
Gift from my brother 10 bucks and a pack of cigs
"and he doesn't even smoke!"
People do lie about the price they paid for their vehicles all the time, in order to minimize the taxes they pay on the vehicle. I'm not saying that's what the person with the food truck was doing, but when amount claimed differs greatly from the estimated true value of the vehicle, they have a reason to be suspicious.
Not really. I'm sure there would be a lot of people around lying about their vehicle costs if they didn't. Where I am we don't even report the cost. It's all based on a valuation similar to Kelly Blue Book.
It's not ridiculous when you realize how many people lie about the sale price to avoid paying their fees.
No, what's ridiculous are all the fees they come up with. It's total bullshit. They should lie. I commend them for lying. Fuck those fees and fuck the government for financially raping everyone, in every way they possibly can.
Hey, that’s not fair! They don’t get *everyone*
Property tax. His friend probably bought it and fixed it up, then once they were ready to put it on the road the dmw valued it much higher than it cost him or he could sell it for. This jacks up the property tax that needs paid to register it
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What's wild is that they will always disagree with what your insurance calls the car worth; insurance wanted to write it off a dent and a mirror on a 15 year old car for 2.6k or 1500 owner repair and service ontario was trying to tell me buying the car off my friend would value it at 6k (making the tax alone more than the repairs it actually needed)
DMV attempted to charge me $100 more in taxes in 2021 than I paid in 2020 because of their over inflated estimates. When I pointed this out because I meticulously kept my reciepts, they dropped it to $5 under the price I paid in 2020.
Taxes. DMV falsely inflates the price, causing the owner to pay more in personal property taxes each year. It's literally State sponsored fraud.
Excise tax. Does not everyone have that?
They're taxing you on the value of the car, not what you paid for it. What gets paid is irrelevant.
Taxes
DMV goes by blue book, even if it’s wildly different than reality
I bought a Subaru for $1500. The lady at the dmv said that the book value was $4300 and wanted to know why I got “such a deal on it.” I said “you can get a car for that cheap too! Just buy a car with a dead transmission and then repair it yourself!” That shut her up.
Bring it to Vermont. Google Vermont Loophole
Holy hell
Are they saying that's what it cost or that's what it's worth? Where I live they don't care about what you paid for it, the look up the value of it and that's the number you pay tax on to register it.
DMV can say whatever they want. A signed bill of sale is all they can go off of. If I want to sell a brand new Lamborghini to my cousin for $259.75 or a 2004 Honda Accord for 259,750.00, I'm allowed to do that.
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Yes, but what if I just don’t pay my taxes? You ever thought about that, numbers boy! I bet it’s super easy to get away with and nobody ever goes to jail for it even if caught! I’m immortal!
>just don’t pay my taxes >immortal There are only two things everyone must do in life...
Be gay and do crime?
Here in Washington they have a known value for a vehicle. If my purchase is within $xx of that value, i pay tax on that (so if they say $10k, and I paid between $9-11k I pay tax on 10k) If my purchase was outside of that “reasonable” range, I have to get a form signed by me and the seller that states why (Buyer/Seller Declaration of Value” $10k car, I paid 5k because of bad paint/transmission/blood spray on ceiling/etc and then I pay tax on the actual paid value.
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Lol, no that was meant as a example. But yes, my assumption in writing that example was suicide.
She should try to sell it to the county for $35k. I’m sure they’ll buy it because that’s what it’s worth right?
You joke but when the property is eventually sold, that shed will be worth 50k. That’s the housing market her generation has created.
No not the land it’s on, just the shed.
Making improvements to land raises the value of the land as a function of the initial value of the land.
This! Thank you!
Its not, this is kc, the shed is worth 1k.
You do see the shed she’s pointing at right?
Give um' a discount, 25,000 sounds fair.
It's a tax scam. They're claiming an overvaluation on the property in order to demand more property taxes. Resident will need to hire an attorney and take the county to court or they'll be on the hook for additional annual taxes.
Late stage capitalism doing what it do. Nothing to see here, pay your scammed taxes and move on. And if you get stopped on the road with cash on the way to pay those taxes, and you get pulled over and the cops charge *your money* with a crime and confiscate it, also, nothing to see here. Late stage capitalism doing what it do.
34k and it's a deal
Where the hell is this?
Raytown, MO. Not exactly extravagant living. This county has been dealing with these kind of tax increases hard.
My grandfather got taxed off family farm land back in the 90s as the state was taxing based on either the amount he was making with the land or the amount they estimated he should be making with the land (it wasn’t an active farm anymore). The tax bill forced him to sell to a suspiciously well connected real estate developer for far less than it was really worth. Only consolation price was the house and carriage house (barn fell over in a heavy snow storm) on the land was as old as the USA itself so he couldn’t tear it down to build his subdivision. Had to get approval for everything and keep the old house. He ended up adding to it to connect the carriage house and farm house into one big building, spent extra to keep it all historic society kosher, then chopped up the back acreage into some kinda ugly ass subdivision. No one on our end got “rich” from it and none of us get to bring our kids or reflect on our family’s agricultural roots through all the history that was stored in that basement and on that land. Anyways, yeah. Usually when weird shit like this is being taxed hard there is some scummy developer behind the curtains doing deals with whoever sets the millage to force old people to leave so they can make millions more.
Thanks. They may have to challenge that in court
Property tax increases have been sharply increasing over the past 2 years nation wide. Guess what else goes up in tandem? Property insurance.
Not in california, prop 13 is the best and worst law in the country at the same time
I highly recommend anyone and everyone to get their properties privately appraised to fight their taxes. A lot of times you are assessed way above value due to the way counties calculate assessment. This is absurd
How else is the government supposed to pay for stuff? Like all those corporate tax breaks?
They’ll have to reel in the spending on cold brews and avocado toast I guess. Tots and pears.
Got to pay for those stadium updates somehow
City doesn’t even have enough money to have police traffic unit
Sounds like Missouri in general, or the Midwest, really.
Wouldn't they be initiated at the County level? (No idea about MO really)
Raytown is a suburb of Kansas City. Both are in Jackson county
Jackson County, Missouri (KC area) We all got fucked on property taxes this year. It's chaos here.
“Ma’am, we can confirm this shack is worth 35k, just look at the Zestimate.”
"Yeah we just made it up. What're youuuuu gonna do about it?"
Time to get an insurance policy at the county rate and hope it doesn’t catch on fire.
That would have been unfortunate.
The most unfortunate thing was the time I nearly caught my barn on fire with a paper sky lantern that went wonky. It would have been terrible but thankfully it didn’t happen to me. It would be an awful and preventable accident.
I am glad you were safe I hope no one else gets ideas!
Oh exactly! I mean it certainly was an accident but gosh I would have felt terrible if I’d burned down my barn. I’m sure anyone could make that mistake though, so I would never shame anyone if this happened because it nearly happened to me.
Does she rent it out for $1700 a month to pay the tax man?
It's a whole racket here in Jackson County. My girlfriend owns her home and her property value went up 48% in a year. There's currently an appeal process and class action lawsuit because of the assessments.
Theres so many more screen shots I could post to here from the community FB groups. Every single day I see exactly what youre describing- property value just skyrocketing and the people are so anxious. Im glad to hear SOMETHING is happening from it. Im not holding my breath. I dont understand how this can just…happen.
It's pretty scary stuff! She's currently at an appeals workshop that looks to have a pretty huge turnout. Apparently there's decent news coverage at the event as well, so there might be some actual coverage on what's going on. A link about the workshop: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kctv5.com/2023/06/27/tax-appeal-workshop-location-changed-tuesday-due-overwhelming-response/%3foutputType=amp
https://www.kctv5.com/2023/06/27/tax-appeal-workshop-location-changed-tuesday-due-overwhelming-response/ De-AMPed that for you.
[Here’s a 250 square foot shed for sale on Long Island for about $600k.](https://www.reddit.com/r/longisland/comments/14kgbak/i_grew_up_still_live_on_the_east_endso_its_hard/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Hyper-capitalism is nothing if not insatiably predatory.
How does the government over-taxing it's citizens have anything to do with capitalism?
Do you… do you think the government isn’t bought and paid for by capitalists, in order to protect their profits and interests?
Do you think capitalists are lobbying for higher property taxes?
yes, in this case most likely to get their new stadium built for the KC Royals. But even in general, it's how they force the current owners to sell when they want the property. So yes, capitalists are lobbying for higher property taxes.
Yes. The fewer private citizens that own their own homes and property means more opportunities for the upper level of capitalists and corporations to own and monetize those homes and properties. Or have you not been watching the housing market?
It sucks that housing values go up because of the stuff around them, not necessarily the house itself.
Ludicrous system.
What about the Ja Rule system?
Also rife with fraud
We most definitely need to hear from Ja on this.
Could somebody please find Ja Rule?
Thas fraud!
shy long mourn teeny direction practice pause library escape outgoing -- mass edited with redact.dev
is this what gentrification means?
No, gentrification is when a working class part of town is being targeted by new middle class people moving in. They can affoard to buy homes and raise rents, which prices out the original working class low income folks, who most often are renter. They get pushed out of their trendy neighbourhoods by a more wealthy, usually white people by making it impossible to affoard to rent there anymore. This also pushes out small local buissnesses in favour of trendy brand store chains and restaurants, that the original people can't affoard to use.
Side note - the useful stores tend to go away, replaced by little boutique places that are some trust-fund kid's hobby store that they open for two hours a day to sell "local crafts". Yeah, that's great good for you, but I'd rather have the old butcher shop, drug store and hardware store back, please.
Brooklyn in a nutshell over the past 15-20 years
Sadly it is always happening, almost everywhere. And cityplanners and many other people see it as a good thing. They only see less "riff raff", less crime, more services and nicer stores coming in. Only a few gives a fuck about the peoole that are being pushed out. What irritates me the most, is how many don't even realize that they are gentrifying. They are some edjucated young couples with some cash and good jobs, who how ever may not affoard to live in the city centre and don't want to leave for the suburbs. So they see the lower cost of living areas and put up shop there. They might even be trying to find some 'authentic city vibes' and the culture of those areas. It's like appropriation, they come in, displace the old and turn it into the areas they often left because of higher cost of living. And then in comes Starbucks on every corner. And god forbid, the endless "short term rental" buissnesses like Airbnb, or as I like to call them, the leeches.
I don't think it's that malicious in reality though obviously has shitty consequences. It typically starts with a city trying to fix a part of town that is falling apart and few businesses survive. They attract outside investors who improve the commercial real estate in the area and then the improvements drive more demand which is what allows them to price rent at higher rates. Those improvements wouldn't happen otherwise. Even if the city just made improvements themselves, which they couldn't, demand would increase because it is now a nicer area. Thus pricing people out anyways
So nothing can be done and it's good, at least a neutral sideneffect, that to spruce up some areas, the poor get pushed out? It is just as malicious as it sounds. Those people lose homes and need to move further away, into areas with less job prospects. Food and banking deserts. Into further poverty. And that should just be accepted as a price for improving neighbourhoods? It doesn't need to be that way. Alot can be done to improve livinareas and not push out residents at the same time.
The improvement would be to raise wages and make better jobs more accessible to the poor. But as I said, if you fix up buildings and streets, which is what cities do, it will price people out even if you kick nobody out.
Rural people a mile into the country: first time?
Although this isn't gentrification, it does feel like a close cousin. When property taxes go up, anyone who doesn't have the income to maintain those expenses will essentially get shoved out of their house. And then since so many homes are being bought up by real estate companies that rent them out, owning a home will eventually become entirely unattainable *even in low population areas*. Shoe box sized houses selling for $500k won't just be a coastal city thing, it'll become the norm even in the Midwest. At least at this rate.
Yup. It is speeding up and coming for us all. Can't wait to see who cracks first: the desperate masses or the owning few.
you are just describing symptoms of bigger systemic housing injustice, the middle class isn't targeting anything, everyone just wants a place they can afford to live
As someone who has been dealing with gentrification in NYC for 15+ years, very good job summing that up
No but Gentrification will affect the houses price so you were close
I live in Raytown. Some of these houses aren't even worth $35K but somehow this shed is. Thanks government
I live in Oak Grove. My house doubled in value because Jackson County did a drive by exterior assessment of the value. Gotta get that new Royals stadium downtown...
If that’s true, wow.
The tinny house effect. Now, any 'shed' can double as a house. Houses are taxed more than sheds.
It’s literally taking every bit of my will not to immigrate out of the U.S. and then I see shit like this. It’s a fucking shed.
And insurance forces you to cover it for $60k.
I am very involved in my neighborhood association part of Jackson county. One of our residents taxes increased by 300%, another by 237%, another by 120% and another by 98%. These are just some of them I know and the reason is just these BS appraisals. The only reason they are appraising so high is the real estate housing prices bubble. None of these home owners have been able to make any improvements to their houses. We are in one of the poorest neighborhoods. It’s heartbreaking not to know how to help. I’m still a renter because we can’t afford to buy. What’s worse, of these houses I listed, 2 of them have roofs that poor water when it rains. Holes in the walls from the outside. Plumbing problems. Possibly foundation problems. They are on waiting lists for assistance to try and get them fixed because they can’t fix them. But their value has increased by 300 and 237 percent?
There's a reason California voters passed Prop 13 decades ago, to reign in this kind of inflated assessments. Propositions in California, when passed by direct vote, are changes to the Constitution, meaning our Senate/Assembly are hamstrung in changing it, though they've certainly tried. (Now they've added "fees" to try and get around it, mostly successfully) Might be time for some Prop 13 in states that abuse their property tax rates and assessments.
Prop 13 is a mixed bag tho. There needs to be some middle ground.
Agreed. It's not perfect. I'm thinking, as you do, that there's got to be a better way.
Fucking boomers
Why are they acting like trump. If the city is responsible for the damage it’s worth $1,000, if it’s for tax assessment purposes it’s worth $35,000. Based on the comps of course /s
It is insane and it's only gonna get worse, because the assholes who set prices are out of touch with reality, and we are too meek to or busy with the grind to check them.
She says that now but when the property is sold the shed will be worth 50k
I'd pay 50k for that tiny home fixer upper!
Whats absolutely insane is that this is a screenshot of a Facebook post of an article, not even the article
The only way that shed is worth $35k is if there's a $34k hooker sitting in it!
Half the price that my parents bought a house for in the 90s
If the land is worth enough wouldn't it pretty much be the worth of the taxes? I own a townhouse in a populated area with barely a backyard and it adds it to the value. Does this county do differently?
Check your insurance policy for your home, your shed is a % of the value of home
KCMO has to pay for that new airport, womens' soccer stadium, new Royals stadium, street car / light rail expansion for the 2026 FIFA cup somehow.
Gas can costs $10
Even Kansas City getting expensive, and I'm moving there Lemme guess gettin priced out there am I?
how many bubbles must we burst
Friends house in Jackson County was 30k last year and this year its 90k...in one of the worst neighborhoods...IN ONE YEAR IT TRIPLED
Detroit did this for *years*. Back in the mid 90's, the house I grew up in was on the market for $6000 (yeah, it was in a shitty neighborhood), and the city assessed it at $60,000 (for tax purposes, of course). We tried telling the assessor that the house was on the market for 10% of the assessed value *and it wasn't selling*. He laughed and said he heard that from a lot of people. We ended up giving the house away to a contractor.
This is something antilandlord crowd seems to miss. Unless owner is a multimilionere, this is how owner are fucked by the system. We're in this shit together, we are supposed to loose everything and be happy about it. Just today, my country dropped a hidden tax basicaly increasing taxes by 30%. Just so. It was unbearable before, now it makes sense to just sell it all and move to a SEA country for early retirement of booze and drugs, becasue fuck anybody under 100 million worth.
antilandlord people aren't angry at owners because they ''own'' the place they live in... antilanlord peoples are angry because landlord own buildings they don't live in!
Not assholes that behave like bottom of the barrel scum? Cause, seriosuly, I was blissfully unaware how much freedom landlord have in US. Morality aside, jfc, it's just bad practice to be such an ass as stories describe.
Why doesn't she just sell it?
Its a taxes thing, not necessarily what you can get out of it.
Why would anyone buy a property for which they had to pay taxes on a 35k shed. Owning property isn’t sunshine and rainbows if the property you own is valueless and the assessor has been tasked with extracting as much cash from you as possible
Oh no boo hoo a property owner who has seen her networth skyrocket is crying because she has to pay the tax on that. Maybe stop eating so much barista made coffee and drinking so much avocado toast and you'd be able to afford your property tax. Or just sell the land so some housing can be built on it.
What are you on?
The states, counties, cities, are all rackets now. They've lost sight of what maintains their existence.
100K in San Diego
OR has a law that taxable value can't increase more than 3% in a year. Unfortunately, it can decrease in a year to market rate, so it only goes one way. Also it means that pay rates for civil employees don't keep up with local housing prices, as rent goes up faster than the tax base. But it's designed to correct these kinds of issues.
Nickle n dime ya
Even if it was a 35k dollar shed... whoes business is that besides her? Why does she have to prove what she has on HER property, that she owns... if she had a shed made of gold what of it?
And then on the other end of the spectrum, county appraisers usually undervalue larger, more valuable homes compared to what they sell for on the market.
Missouri again
I don't understand. Its just a shed.
Would enjoy it if property taxes were based on the owner's ability to pay not market speculation. Its dumb how a person can be systematically pushed off their land.
What even is their basis in 35x'ing the value of a shit-shack like that? Like come on.
I just used the word you used (that rhymes with inane) in a post in this sub and was told it was grounds for binning and deleted