I think most of us here enjoy the practice of law (i.e., research, motion practice, collaborating with peers, etc…), but what makes it suck for most is the multitude of bad actors along the way (ill-tempered OC, canned/meritless arguments and objections, needless delays, petty discovery disputes, unreasonable clients who think they own you, arrogant/stupid judges, overly demanding managing attorneys, insubordinate/bossy paralegals, and the list goes on).
Totally hear you on that annoying parts. But I've come to view them as just a part of the job. That's the part I get paid for - most of the fun stuff, I'd do for free. But if I am going to tolerate some ill tempered opp counsel yelling at me like a douche, there better be some money in it for me.
My story is similar and my area of expertise is T&E.
The law can accommodate so many skill sets. Compare me with a criminal defense attorney or an environmental attorney or someone who does appellate work and we might as well be talking about different professions.
I always scratch my head when people say they don’t like being lawyers. Most likely they just don’t like the area they started with.
It hard to change practices - I’ve largely disliked litigation but would know how to change. The only thing I have enjoyed in 30 years of practice are large cases with complex expert issues. The legal aspects of cases and client relations I have no interest in. I enjoy the factual investigation, the preparation of deposition of experts and delving into the areas of expert testimony. Unfortunately I do mostly commercial work where this isn’t prevalent.
Yeah. I also think that a lack of mentoring is a major issue. Most people are thrown into the lion's den and have no clue what the heck is going on. The people above them might mean to mentor them but are too darn busy and under too much pressure to actually teach them. So young lawyers are in a very scary position at the very start of their career when some learning and nurturing would do them a ton of good.
What type of Law lets you do the parts you like, like arguing, outsmarting etc. this gives me hope. What are the main specialities for that type of thing. And if you have any other related information I’d seriously appreciate it. Thanks
Just curious what you find enjoyable about plaintiff's side employment law? I am phasing out of doing this work because I find the clients it attracts (hypersensitive types, primarily) to be exhausting and the highly technical nature of many "penalty" type claims to present poorly in terms of jury optics. These are also uninsured claims, which means that many small and even mid size employers will be judgment proof, which has led to issues on past cases where I've put in a lot of hours only to get stiffed. Are you doing mainly class action type work? I could see that as having greater upside potential.
Frequently the defendants are large employers that are self-insured. Money is no issue.
Most of our cases are Title VII or ADA discrimination, and it's a very straightforward story that the jury understands. Going through the EEOC is a pain, but it's really just a six-month speed bump before filing the complaint.
And it's fun because it's all the same as PI litigation but instead of crash reports and medical records the discovery is all workplace drama.
That part of it is cool. Plus we get to actually help people. There are definitely a lot of annoying people who call us thinking they have claims, but we've gotten better at weening those out.
That would seem fun to argue, especially getting into physical and mental health disabilities at workplaces. I was thinking the other day that if I restarted my law career I'd probably do something like plaintiff-side employment law. I wouldn't be able to mentally take PD work and admire the hell out of people who do, but I could handle something like plaintiff-side employment law.
Employment law is not rocket science. You could probably have get a good enough fundamental understanding and enough solid forms within 1 week of CLE courses and digging up forms on pacer.
Reading your initial post which didn't say specifically what area of law and which side of the bar you were on…I knew you were a plaintiff's attorney. Practicing on the plaintiff side is so much more fun and less stress for whatever reason.
Not really... Every lawsuit requires mostly the same shit. Dealing with non-responsive opposing counsel, chasing down witnesses, chasing discovery.
These things don’t just poof disappear in certain litigation specialties. Painting this rosy picture of just doing the enjoyable parts of a lawsuit is just doing a disservice to young lawyers.
100% agree re federal court. They allow for waaaay less shenanigans. But I also view non-responsive opposing counsel, chasing discovery, etc. as part of the job. Some of it has to be kind of hard/annoying. Plus, I don't take any of that stuff personally any more (100% turnaround from me 10 years ago - thank you therapy!).
Annoying people are a part of doing business in the service industry. I've found so long as I am very good about making sure MY CLIENTS are not annoying people, I do ok.
I love my legal career as well. I focus my practice in a very narrow area: construction transactional. I draft agreements between owners / developers and contractors (typically).
I help get big projects built. I see projects that meaningfully impact peoples’ lives years before they become public knowledge. The cool thing: my clients invite me to tour those projects right before they open.
I also get to drive past completed projects, point them out to my kids, and say: I helped make that happen!
Holy moses, I have exactly the opposite reasons for loving being a lawyer, and it's hilarious that we're basically doing the same job.
I don't much care about the work or meeting the clients or outsmarting my adversaries or any of that. I just like the paycheck. But after spending the last decade or so following my dreams and having them all crash and burn, a decent sized steady paycheck is pretty fucking nice.
I do the work in front of me. Quickly and hopefully well. Put in my time. Go home. Do it again the next day. Then every 2 weeks I get a check that gives me a hope of a future I'll actually be able to afford in Los Angeles that's not living out of a van on the outskirts of Palmdale.
I thought being miserable was part of the job and I was lucky to be at a firm doing complex office work. Switched to public defense after a few years. The massive increase in job satisfaction was worth every cent of the substantial pay cut.
seriously. going to court is fun but around the 10 year mark, even the hardcore litigators don't like going to court anymore.
Thank you covid for zoom court.
I really appreciate you posting this. I also happen to love practicing law. I started 100% commercial litigation, and I transitioned my practice to add transactional work and mediation. I’m now about 60% litigation and 40% transactional/mediation work. I love the mix, and I love practicing law. Glad to know others feel the same!
Like you, I hated being a lawyer for the first 5-7 years. When I left biglaw, I decided that while money was important, happiness was more important. I took a huge paycut. Now, I am 7 years removed from biglaw, and I both like my practice and get paid fairly. So glad you found something that works for you!
Yeah, biglaw is a weird grind. I think I ended up there as a momentum thing. I was competitive to get into college, same thing for law school. And when I was in law school, the competitive thing was to get a job at a big law firm (and/or a clerkship - which I can go on and on about too). So I wound up at a big firm and was proud of myself.
Firm itself was fine, but I was not a good fit at all. Frankly, I wasn't a great fit at any large law firm, I just did not realize it until much later.
As a lawyer having graduated a while ago, your post gives me some hope. As a first gen female lawyer in Asia in often find myself wrestling with the legal profession and I am unable to break fresh ground, which I'll admit is due to my own shortcomings, inaction nd circumstances.
I was on a longterm internship with a boutique law firm doing purely litigation, it alot was going on, and somewhere I chickened out because a certain senior associate told me "I wasn't good enough" or "it's not my cup of tea"
That year Covid hit and was unable to find myself a job. I took independent practice from home and represented 2-3 clients in Court. Not to mentioned a dishonest bribe judge and the looks of their betrayal. However, that was it, and for some reason I came from a place of "I am too young (25-26) to be doing this and I need more experience"
I found myself a job at a small law firm, doing litigation and corporate work - IP and Startup (atleast that's what they called them). In the first two months itself, I could not see myself at this place, I was definitely met with hostility and dismissal not only from the Partner but my collegues as well despite my every effort. Found that office to lack humility, culture and cultivation. After all the partner had a office help hold their bags, bring them water and stir their coffee. Somewhere, the partner didn't have faith in my ability and value me....and she got mad when I brought it up.
At the interview itself I made myself very clear with my area of litigation practice with no experience in corporate work. I did good work with documentation but I couldn't see myself doing it as much. In 8 months I was terminated because I didn't match their qualification criteria and ideally it was a mistake to hire me despite the vacancy having specifics of 3-4 years with lit-corporate experience. I cannot get over the fact, I was terminated because the partner she doesn't have the time to mentor and needs a handson person. Honestly, all she did was watch tiktok...but she would BS clients and they would believe her with closed eyes.
Now 6 months, I interviewed for with a small time litigation lawyer, who called me inexperienced to argue in court despite the credible judgement I had in my name in my independent practice. I cannot get myself to work under somebody, I love the autonomy and independence. I would love to get in to standing counsel practice and do some independent litigation, but I keep saying I lack the elaborate experience and exposure, I am 28 now and to my family its not practical with no stability and security and a messy resume. To relatives I am not respected. And to pursue litigation in my country where the area is completely male dominated and most females my age leave the proffession to get married and join inhouse roles. Its also low on money if you cant find ground.
I interviewed for a inhouse role a while back in IP and the interviewer said the job is going to be mundane, and its all crucial documentation with only another person to look over...I got cold feet 🥶. I said may be I need to build character and learn different aspect to have edge but then Im finding myself difficult to wrap my head around it. Though I shouldn't be dismissive without trying.
Somewhere, I feel its not about me, its about how past employers, potential employees make me feel. I like that litigation is exhilarating but most say it comes with no family time. I am also a creative person. I dont have that straight headedness of a corporate lawyer.
I find myself oscillating with what do I really do? I find myself in a bitter experiences...Idk I'd really just like some money to go on a international solo trip that will give me clarity. Id love some court counsel practice...yet i go and forth with nows not may be time...now im having self confidence and commitment issues...now i need more experience and need to explore avenues....now im here and my friends have moved to austrailia and canada...and im here with my parents...should i have done a finance degree instead"
I'd love to come to terms....I constantly think of the time I represented in court...did all that research...and replies...loved that. Law is so diverse...its like shades of grey and not all black and white!
I agree with you but from a different perspective. I’m the General Counsel for my company, and I love it. Sure, there are some crazy times and extensive work off hours being on call, but I love serving as the resource for almost any question from any department, and I love having a seat at the table for the big deals/issues. I have been a trusted confidant for 3 CEOs and our Board Chair. I also love being a part of/having a say in creating the strategy/culture for the company. Of course, the money is comfortable too.
Private practice life was just ok. I agree with you in that I loved some aspects (I loved drafting and winning big motions, thrived on depositions, and enjoyed the gamesmanship/strategy of mediations). I didn’t enjoy the rainmaking aspect, which is truly how you get ahead. I could schmooze like everyone else, but I didn’t like the “We are great friends…would you throw me a couple cases?” It felt too fake for me, as I’d rather be genuine friends with my peers instead of having an ulterior business motive.
To this day, I only retain attorneys for matters where they exhibit the same fanaticism I had in my cases/deals as a young associate. I knew everything about my cases, when the deadlines were, and all the key facts because I immersed myself in them. All too often, I encounter attorneys going through the motions in my matters, and they don’t receive additional work from me.
I should disclaim that my dad was a lawyer too, so I can’t imagine doing anything else. I feel extremely fortunate to be where I am, as I was an above average undergrad, top 25th percentile from a 2nd tier law school, and didn’t have a lawyer job directly after law school.
Thank you for this.
I love helping people! I was recently reminded why I am in immigration law after receiving the sweetest message from one of my recently granted asylum seekers.
You're a psychopath and I hate you.
J/k good for you. Maybe your truth will become my truth. Or maybe it'll be a light at the end of a tunnel that keeps me striving in this field until I just can't take it anymore.
There's something that you can do with your lawyer skill set. If you're unhappy in your job, it could be from a lot of reasons. Use this time to figure out what you do and don't like - and get fucking paid to figure that out! And when you start to get that figured out - look for people who are successful doing what you want to do. Ask questions ... go their way.
I think most of us here enjoy the practice of law (i.e., research, motion practice, collaborating with peers, etc…), but what makes it suck for most is the multitude of bad actors along the way (ill-tempered OC, canned/meritless arguments and objections, needless delays, petty discovery disputes, unreasonable clients who think they own you, arrogant/stupid judges, overly demanding managing attorneys, insubordinate/bossy paralegals, and the list goes on).
Totally hear you on that annoying parts. But I've come to view them as just a part of the job. That's the part I get paid for - most of the fun stuff, I'd do for free. But if I am going to tolerate some ill tempered opp counsel yelling at me like a douche, there better be some money in it for me.
Plaintiff employment bar represent. Fighting for employee and minority rights and wages in federal court isn't a bad way to spend a career.
Any tips on transitioning out of public defense into this type of work? I’m ready for a change, but I want to keep fighting for the little guy.
My story is similar and my area of expertise is T&E. The law can accommodate so many skill sets. Compare me with a criminal defense attorney or an environmental attorney or someone who does appellate work and we might as well be talking about different professions. I always scratch my head when people say they don’t like being lawyers. Most likely they just don’t like the area they started with.
It hard to change practices - I’ve largely disliked litigation but would know how to change. The only thing I have enjoyed in 30 years of practice are large cases with complex expert issues. The legal aspects of cases and client relations I have no interest in. I enjoy the factual investigation, the preparation of deposition of experts and delving into the areas of expert testimony. Unfortunately I do mostly commercial work where this isn’t prevalent.
Practice area is the biggest reason why people hate or love being a lawyer.
Yeah. I also think that a lack of mentoring is a major issue. Most people are thrown into the lion's den and have no clue what the heck is going on. The people above them might mean to mentor them but are too darn busy and under too much pressure to actually teach them. So young lawyers are in a very scary position at the very start of their career when some learning and nurturing would do them a ton of good.
I agree. A big blame should land on law schools. They don’t prepare graduates for the actual practice of law.
What type of Law lets you do the parts you like, like arguing, outsmarting etc. this gives me hope. What are the main specialities for that type of thing. And if you have any other related information I’d seriously appreciate it. Thanks
plaintiff-side employment law
Just curious what you find enjoyable about plaintiff's side employment law? I am phasing out of doing this work because I find the clients it attracts (hypersensitive types, primarily) to be exhausting and the highly technical nature of many "penalty" type claims to present poorly in terms of jury optics. These are also uninsured claims, which means that many small and even mid size employers will be judgment proof, which has led to issues on past cases where I've put in a lot of hours only to get stiffed. Are you doing mainly class action type work? I could see that as having greater upside potential.
Frequently the defendants are large employers that are self-insured. Money is no issue. Most of our cases are Title VII or ADA discrimination, and it's a very straightforward story that the jury understands. Going through the EEOC is a pain, but it's really just a six-month speed bump before filing the complaint. And it's fun because it's all the same as PI litigation but instead of crash reports and medical records the discovery is all workplace drama.
That part of it is cool. Plus we get to actually help people. There are definitely a lot of annoying people who call us thinking they have claims, but we've gotten better at weening those out.
That would seem fun to argue, especially getting into physical and mental health disabilities at workplaces. I was thinking the other day that if I restarted my law career I'd probably do something like plaintiff-side employment law. I wouldn't be able to mentally take PD work and admire the hell out of people who do, but I could handle something like plaintiff-side employment law.
Employment law is not rocket science. You could probably have get a good enough fundamental understanding and enough solid forms within 1 week of CLE courses and digging up forms on pacer.
Reading your initial post which didn't say specifically what area of law and which side of the bar you were on…I knew you were a plaintiff's attorney. Practicing on the plaintiff side is so much more fun and less stress for whatever reason.
Same, plaintiff-side employment litigation and absolutely love my job.
love this.
Not really... Every lawsuit requires mostly the same shit. Dealing with non-responsive opposing counsel, chasing down witnesses, chasing discovery. These things don’t just poof disappear in certain litigation specialties. Painting this rosy picture of just doing the enjoyable parts of a lawsuit is just doing a disservice to young lawyers.
Being in federal court makes almost all that stuff better
100% agree re federal court. They allow for waaaay less shenanigans. But I also view non-responsive opposing counsel, chasing discovery, etc. as part of the job. Some of it has to be kind of hard/annoying. Plus, I don't take any of that stuff personally any more (100% turnaround from me 10 years ago - thank you therapy!). Annoying people are a part of doing business in the service industry. I've found so long as I am very good about making sure MY CLIENTS are not annoying people, I do ok.
I’m fond of saying that 90% of my job is trying to get other people (OC, judges) to do their job.
OC got offended when I accused him of treating the FRCP as optional. When he was treating the FRCP as optional.
It do be like that sometimes.
Fair
Any tips on transitioning out of public defense into this type of work? I’m ready for a change, but I want to keep fighting for the little guy.
solving puzzles to try to help people is a lot of fun
I love my legal career as well. I focus my practice in a very narrow area: construction transactional. I draft agreements between owners / developers and contractors (typically). I help get big projects built. I see projects that meaningfully impact peoples’ lives years before they become public knowledge. The cool thing: my clients invite me to tour those projects right before they open. I also get to drive past completed projects, point them out to my kids, and say: I helped make that happen!
Holy moses, I have exactly the opposite reasons for loving being a lawyer, and it's hilarious that we're basically doing the same job. I don't much care about the work or meeting the clients or outsmarting my adversaries or any of that. I just like the paycheck. But after spending the last decade or so following my dreams and having them all crash and burn, a decent sized steady paycheck is pretty fucking nice. I do the work in front of me. Quickly and hopefully well. Put in my time. Go home. Do it again the next day. Then every 2 weeks I get a check that gives me a hope of a future I'll actually be able to afford in Los Angeles that's not living out of a van on the outskirts of Palmdale.
This is a totally valid and reasonable way to approach it. We need to normalize thus more in our profession. We work to live.
Well said. I agree with both of you.
I thought being miserable was part of the job and I was lucky to be at a firm doing complex office work. Switched to public defense after a few years. The massive increase in job satisfaction was worth every cent of the substantial pay cut.
Blink twice if someone made you type this out against your will
Readers: "Give the OP some time . . . . . "
It sounds like OP is at least 8 years into practice, past the 7-year itch. Should be fine.
I'm sorry.... what is OP?
Original Poster
seriously. going to court is fun but around the 10 year mark, even the hardcore litigators don't like going to court anymore. Thank you covid for zoom court.
I really appreciate you posting this. I also happen to love practicing law. I started 100% commercial litigation, and I transitioned my practice to add transactional work and mediation. I’m now about 60% litigation and 40% transactional/mediation work. I love the mix, and I love practicing law. Glad to know others feel the same!
Like you, I hated being a lawyer for the first 5-7 years. When I left biglaw, I decided that while money was important, happiness was more important. I took a huge paycut. Now, I am 7 years removed from biglaw, and I both like my practice and get paid fairly. So glad you found something that works for you!
Yeah, biglaw is a weird grind. I think I ended up there as a momentum thing. I was competitive to get into college, same thing for law school. And when I was in law school, the competitive thing was to get a job at a big law firm (and/or a clerkship - which I can go on and on about too). So I wound up at a big firm and was proud of myself. Firm itself was fine, but I was not a good fit at all. Frankly, I wasn't a great fit at any large law firm, I just did not realize it until much later.
I am 5 years post-bar and I fucking hate it. How do I know if I should stick it out or change careers
Do you like ANYTHING about what you do? What made you want to go to law school? What do you do now?
As a lawyer having graduated a while ago, your post gives me some hope. As a first gen female lawyer in Asia in often find myself wrestling with the legal profession and I am unable to break fresh ground, which I'll admit is due to my own shortcomings, inaction nd circumstances. I was on a longterm internship with a boutique law firm doing purely litigation, it alot was going on, and somewhere I chickened out because a certain senior associate told me "I wasn't good enough" or "it's not my cup of tea" That year Covid hit and was unable to find myself a job. I took independent practice from home and represented 2-3 clients in Court. Not to mentioned a dishonest bribe judge and the looks of their betrayal. However, that was it, and for some reason I came from a place of "I am too young (25-26) to be doing this and I need more experience" I found myself a job at a small law firm, doing litigation and corporate work - IP and Startup (atleast that's what they called them). In the first two months itself, I could not see myself at this place, I was definitely met with hostility and dismissal not only from the Partner but my collegues as well despite my every effort. Found that office to lack humility, culture and cultivation. After all the partner had a office help hold their bags, bring them water and stir their coffee. Somewhere, the partner didn't have faith in my ability and value me....and she got mad when I brought it up. At the interview itself I made myself very clear with my area of litigation practice with no experience in corporate work. I did good work with documentation but I couldn't see myself doing it as much. In 8 months I was terminated because I didn't match their qualification criteria and ideally it was a mistake to hire me despite the vacancy having specifics of 3-4 years with lit-corporate experience. I cannot get over the fact, I was terminated because the partner she doesn't have the time to mentor and needs a handson person. Honestly, all she did was watch tiktok...but she would BS clients and they would believe her with closed eyes. Now 6 months, I interviewed for with a small time litigation lawyer, who called me inexperienced to argue in court despite the credible judgement I had in my name in my independent practice. I cannot get myself to work under somebody, I love the autonomy and independence. I would love to get in to standing counsel practice and do some independent litigation, but I keep saying I lack the elaborate experience and exposure, I am 28 now and to my family its not practical with no stability and security and a messy resume. To relatives I am not respected. And to pursue litigation in my country where the area is completely male dominated and most females my age leave the proffession to get married and join inhouse roles. Its also low on money if you cant find ground. I interviewed for a inhouse role a while back in IP and the interviewer said the job is going to be mundane, and its all crucial documentation with only another person to look over...I got cold feet 🥶. I said may be I need to build character and learn different aspect to have edge but then Im finding myself difficult to wrap my head around it. Though I shouldn't be dismissive without trying. Somewhere, I feel its not about me, its about how past employers, potential employees make me feel. I like that litigation is exhilarating but most say it comes with no family time. I am also a creative person. I dont have that straight headedness of a corporate lawyer. I find myself oscillating with what do I really do? I find myself in a bitter experiences...Idk I'd really just like some money to go on a international solo trip that will give me clarity. Id love some court counsel practice...yet i go and forth with nows not may be time...now im having self confidence and commitment issues...now i need more experience and need to explore avenues....now im here and my friends have moved to austrailia and canada...and im here with my parents...should i have done a finance degree instead" I'd love to come to terms....I constantly think of the time I represented in court...did all that research...and replies...loved that. Law is so diverse...its like shades of grey and not all black and white!
I agree with you but from a different perspective. I’m the General Counsel for my company, and I love it. Sure, there are some crazy times and extensive work off hours being on call, but I love serving as the resource for almost any question from any department, and I love having a seat at the table for the big deals/issues. I have been a trusted confidant for 3 CEOs and our Board Chair. I also love being a part of/having a say in creating the strategy/culture for the company. Of course, the money is comfortable too. Private practice life was just ok. I agree with you in that I loved some aspects (I loved drafting and winning big motions, thrived on depositions, and enjoyed the gamesmanship/strategy of mediations). I didn’t enjoy the rainmaking aspect, which is truly how you get ahead. I could schmooze like everyone else, but I didn’t like the “We are great friends…would you throw me a couple cases?” It felt too fake for me, as I’d rather be genuine friends with my peers instead of having an ulterior business motive. To this day, I only retain attorneys for matters where they exhibit the same fanaticism I had in my cases/deals as a young associate. I knew everything about my cases, when the deadlines were, and all the key facts because I immersed myself in them. All too often, I encounter attorneys going through the motions in my matters, and they don’t receive additional work from me. I should disclaim that my dad was a lawyer too, so I can’t imagine doing anything else. I feel extremely fortunate to be where I am, as I was an above average undergrad, top 25th percentile from a 2nd tier law school, and didn’t have a lawyer job directly after law school.
Same. Yeah there are parts that suck but I love the challenge. Me against the government.
You said you decided to switch course. What exactly did that look like?
I went from working defense side at a big law firm, to going solo and representing mostly plaintiffs.
Oh wow. This is exactly what I want to do. Good for you.
Thank you for this. I love helping people! I was recently reminded why I am in immigration law after receiving the sweetest message from one of my recently granted asylum seekers.
thank yous are sooooo rare. Good for you!
This has to be a fake post
You're a psychopath and I hate you. J/k good for you. Maybe your truth will become my truth. Or maybe it'll be a light at the end of a tunnel that keeps me striving in this field until I just can't take it anymore.
There's something that you can do with your lawyer skill set. If you're unhappy in your job, it could be from a lot of reasons. Use this time to figure out what you do and don't like - and get fucking paid to figure that out! And when you start to get that figured out - look for people who are successful doing what you want to do. Ask questions ... go their way.