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It’s exceedingly common in Illinois comp defense and in GL. It is somewhat (but not really) mitigated by the fact that everyone here seems to be billing more hours than they actually work. I wish I had that problem
The way you do it is by making billing your first job rather than your legal work. Remember that anything that takes less than a full six minutes is still billed at the full six minutes. So, if you send 10 emails that take 1 minute to write, but can be billed at a .1, you’ve got an hour of work for 10 minutes of time. It is a horrible way to live, but that’s the way it works.
The great irony is so many rules actually require advanced knowledge of the split itself, not just that it rounds up. Yet so many agreements exclude this despite it being commonly joked about (probably because clients would challenge it). The opinions vary by state, but most involve windshield time or court room waiting time and double billing, which match a lot closer to emails than people realize.
Many years ago, I was writing appeals for a comp defense firm that represented a major auto manufacturer. It was not unusual for our guys to show up at the Comp Bureau on a morning with 4 files, all set for pretrials. Prep and appear at pretrial hearing was billed at 3 hours, times four files equals 12 hours billed by lunchtime. The client was fine with it, partly because our deal with them provided for set hours per service and the fact that our hourly rate was less than half of what anyone else was charging.
Just charge by the task, like doctors do. Instead of lying about spending 3 hours at a hearing, just bill $1000 for a hearing. It would cut down on administrative work and 0.1 time entries while also reflecting the actual value of services provided.
CA. I want to try and shed some light on 2400 billable hrs.
Based on some stories I heard about insurance defense from law school friends, they’d bill 1/1.5 hr for going through medical records but really it takes them 10-15 minutes to find all the info they need. This is common practice.
But probably b/c insurance companies and law firms have agreed price ranges, the only way for junior associates to bring in the minimum revenue to stay with the firm is to bill on average 2400 hrs regardless of assignment types. I’d think it’s the same for work comp defense firms.
Nah, it’s fraud. It’s also unethical. And the second there is a slip up on a fees case the other way to private counsel somebody is making a very interesting witness recording for future cles.
If you take 2+ hours to review medical records b/c you’re inexperienced/careless/unskillful/involved in a uniquely difficult and complex case, insurance company still pays 1/1.5 hr fee for your review of the medical records. Also, the prices are generally discounted/adjusted so it’s hard to say there is fraud at play when insurance companies knowingly enter into agreements with law firms.
If you want to make this argument, give the rates you assume. I don’t discount my juniors extra time (until crazy), that’s built into their lower rate. Me going 6x my actual rate time for a value is a fuck ton more in my pocket than my junior losing 1/6 their actual rate time. That’s not even at all, unless of course I bill a fraction of the juniors rate.
Let’s say I work for you as a freshly hired 1st year associate with two years of civil litigation. I have a plaintiff’s medical record of 200 pgs, which is typical. You and an insurance company (client) negotiated $500 per medical records review (1 hour). But in all honesty I take 1.5 hrs for a good reason (and I will and do get better gradually). You’re telling me you’re gonna bill the client $750 regardless and let me bill full 1.5 hrs? On top of that, you’d fight the client for me? If so, you’re a good boss. I’d work for you.
I work neither in workers comp nor insurance defense.
No I’m just showing why that’s bullshit as an argument that it’s ethical and fair. Sure, true flat rates that are templates do average that way, the record, which absolutely is unique per person, can’t be.
I only deal with them when they tie into normal litigation. They hate it when I poke their bills and refuse to let them poke mine (and get mad when I defend that yes, I can state my junior is as good as they and deserves the same pay. Why? Because his motion beat your response). I won’t bill that way, will actually respect my juniors and colleagues (again, it’s built into rate to try to be fair), and happily fight clients too (rarely for long, it’s not difficult once I sit down and explain what’s up). Come to Ohio, happy to chat.
One day, one day I will have attorneys fees against me from an insurance counsel, and I will enjoy grilling them on each and every single entry (they’ve done to me before, but mine never were unethical).
Being on the plaintiff side in IL myself, don’t shy away from comp. I thought the same thing as you when I was in law school. I wanted the big pi cases, the jury trials, “real” court. I do all that, but half my caseload is comp, and babysitting the medical treatment of a career ending injury for a union tradesman is the easiest 70k fee you’ll ever make. It’s easy work if you know how to do it, and it does more than just keep the lights on.
You’re honestly living my dream doing both. My main fear is that I will never learn “traditional” court due to being locked in comp.
I am increasingly having problems morally with some of the work i’m doing. I wanted to help people. Not this
I feel you. I did worker’s comp defense for two years and I just couldn’t do it anymore. It’s the only thing I’ve done in my legal career that truly felt immoral.
Unless you want to spend your career in WC I would get out. It is a very niche practice and the skillset mostly lends itself to more WC and not much else. If you don’t like it and don’t want to stay for the long haul I would definitely suggest getting into a general practice firm for a broadened skillset. While you’re still new to the profession, this is still fixable. Once you hit 3-4 years in WC it’s going to be harder to market yourself. People may disagree, there will probably be people who got out at 3 or 4 years just fine, but I believe that’s the exception. I’ve seen multiple firms I’ve worked for decline to interview career WC attorneys because they don’t have the skillset that a general practice firm is looking for 3-4 years in, and if they’re hiring a year 4 attorney they aren’t expecting to teach the basics.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. As long as you’re making the moves, something will click eventually. I think you’re wise to recognize this as a possibility, and this early in your career you can absolutely change the direction.
I actively try to keep my WC practice lower so that I don't get pigeon holed. I would strive for positions where it's not exclusively WC, like a plaintiff's firm that's a mix, you can use your experience to get the foot in the door for the job with your experience, and then gain the experience on the traditional lit side. If you're under 3 years at this job I wouldn't worry too much about it though, there are a lot of transferable skills. I lateralled completely from criminal to civil at my 3 year mark, no issues with that.
I worked as a paralegal in WC and all I did was medical chrons. As an attorney, I vowed to not go into WC. I had a few offers from attorneys I had met that did both but mostly WC and I declined for the exact same reasons you stated. You are actually at a good time to get out! Do not take another WC job. Unfortunately, you will probably face that the firms that handle lit will probably low ball you..but one good thing you may have going for yourself is that you have probably taken dr. deps so that IS a useful skill in premises work.
If you can afford a paycut, take any job you can get doing litigation. It is possible! I know a guy who started in the State's Attorney's Office then WC then liability..
I made the jump from comp to General lit after 2.5 years in a comp firm. It can be done. Just hammer those trial by fire skills.
I hate this new job more than the comp job but, you know, it is what it is.
Trust me when I tell you that the knowledge of medical terminology as well as the ability to examine and cross-examine medical experts that you get from comp is eventually going to make you very marketable. Hang in there.
2400 billable requirement is ludicrous. That type of figure is literally impossible unless you bill 12 hours per day for 6 days each week.
Don’t be so scared of jumping ship to plaintiff side comp. No billable hours, so you won’t be taken advantage of in that way. Just throw around applications to all associate positions posted on Indeed and LinkedIn, because literally anything is better than 2400 billables. (1900 is a fair amount, 1950 is the norm and doable)
Yeah but you gotta account do holidays, being sick, etc. it’s easy to say I only need to bill 40 hours a week and then you get a stomach bug and you gotta make it up.
Where are you located in IL? I work at PL firm that is currently looking for an attorney in our PI group. You'd most likely be going WC along with other types. Dm if you'd prefer that.
Welcome to /r/LawyerTalk! A subreddit where lawyers can discuss with other lawyers about the practice of law. Be mindful of [our rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lawyertalk/about/rules) BEFORE submitting your posts or comments as well as [Reddit's rules](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) (notably about sharing identifying information). We expect civility and respect out of all participants. Please source statements of fact whenever possible. If you want to report something that needs to be urgently addressed, please also message the mods with an explanation. Note that **this forum is NOT for legal advice**. Additionally, if you are a non-lawyer (student, client, staff), this is NOT the right subreddit for you. **This community is exclusively for lawyers**. We suggest you delete your comment and go ask one of the many other legal subreddits on this site for help such as (but not limited to) r/lawschool, r/legaladvice, or r/Ask_Lawyers. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lawyertalk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I stopped reading at “2400 billable requirement.” How…how is that possible?
It’s exceedingly common in Illinois comp defense and in GL. It is somewhat (but not really) mitigated by the fact that everyone here seems to be billing more hours than they actually work. I wish I had that problem
The way you do it is by making billing your first job rather than your legal work. Remember that anything that takes less than a full six minutes is still billed at the full six minutes. So, if you send 10 emails that take 1 minute to write, but can be billed at a .1, you’ve got an hour of work for 10 minutes of time. It is a horrible way to live, but that’s the way it works.
The great irony is so many rules actually require advanced knowledge of the split itself, not just that it rounds up. Yet so many agreements exclude this despite it being commonly joked about (probably because clients would challenge it). The opinions vary by state, but most involve windshield time or court room waiting time and double billing, which match a lot closer to emails than people realize.
Fuck man. The legal profession is really weird sometimes
Many years ago, I was writing appeals for a comp defense firm that represented a major auto manufacturer. It was not unusual for our guys to show up at the Comp Bureau on a morning with 4 files, all set for pretrials. Prep and appear at pretrial hearing was billed at 3 hours, times four files equals 12 hours billed by lunchtime. The client was fine with it, partly because our deal with them provided for set hours per service and the fact that our hourly rate was less than half of what anyone else was charging.
I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just call it a flat fee, rather than submit a bill that contains objectively false information?
My bet is they tried that and some of the denser clients assumed "flat fee" meant "do as little work as possible on your case."
Just charge by the task, like doctors do. Instead of lying about spending 3 hours at a hearing, just bill $1000 for a hearing. It would cut down on administrative work and 0.1 time entries while also reflecting the actual value of services provided.
CA. I want to try and shed some light on 2400 billable hrs. Based on some stories I heard about insurance defense from law school friends, they’d bill 1/1.5 hr for going through medical records but really it takes them 10-15 minutes to find all the info they need. This is common practice. But probably b/c insurance companies and law firms have agreed price ranges, the only way for junior associates to bring in the minimum revenue to stay with the firm is to bill on average 2400 hrs regardless of assignment types. I’d think it’s the same for work comp defense firms.
So you’re saying that the business model is predicated on widespread fraud?
More like working within the bounds of the contract
Move to strike as nonresponsive.
Very funny, Jon from Rhode Island
Nah, it’s fraud. It’s also unethical. And the second there is a slip up on a fees case the other way to private counsel somebody is making a very interesting witness recording for future cles.
If you take 2+ hours to review medical records b/c you’re inexperienced/careless/unskillful/involved in a uniquely difficult and complex case, insurance company still pays 1/1.5 hr fee for your review of the medical records. Also, the prices are generally discounted/adjusted so it’s hard to say there is fraud at play when insurance companies knowingly enter into agreements with law firms.
If you want to make this argument, give the rates you assume. I don’t discount my juniors extra time (until crazy), that’s built into their lower rate. Me going 6x my actual rate time for a value is a fuck ton more in my pocket than my junior losing 1/6 their actual rate time. That’s not even at all, unless of course I bill a fraction of the juniors rate.
Let’s say I work for you as a freshly hired 1st year associate with two years of civil litigation. I have a plaintiff’s medical record of 200 pgs, which is typical. You and an insurance company (client) negotiated $500 per medical records review (1 hour). But in all honesty I take 1.5 hrs for a good reason (and I will and do get better gradually). You’re telling me you’re gonna bill the client $750 regardless and let me bill full 1.5 hrs? On top of that, you’d fight the client for me? If so, you’re a good boss. I’d work for you. I work neither in workers comp nor insurance defense.
No I’m just showing why that’s bullshit as an argument that it’s ethical and fair. Sure, true flat rates that are templates do average that way, the record, which absolutely is unique per person, can’t be. I only deal with them when they tie into normal litigation. They hate it when I poke their bills and refuse to let them poke mine (and get mad when I defend that yes, I can state my junior is as good as they and deserves the same pay. Why? Because his motion beat your response). I won’t bill that way, will actually respect my juniors and colleagues (again, it’s built into rate to try to be fair), and happily fight clients too (rarely for long, it’s not difficult once I sit down and explain what’s up). Come to Ohio, happy to chat.
That sounds like comp defense to me, yeah.
One day, one day I will have attorneys fees against me from an insurance counsel, and I will enjoy grilling them on each and every single entry (they’ve done to me before, but mine never were unethical).
They’re billing two files when they’re in mediations.
I came to write the same exact thing. 2400? GTFO. Move on. Now.
Pro tip: if you don't hit your (quite ridiculous) requirement, you don't have to give the money back.
Being on the plaintiff side in IL myself, don’t shy away from comp. I thought the same thing as you when I was in law school. I wanted the big pi cases, the jury trials, “real” court. I do all that, but half my caseload is comp, and babysitting the medical treatment of a career ending injury for a union tradesman is the easiest 70k fee you’ll ever make. It’s easy work if you know how to do it, and it does more than just keep the lights on.
You’re honestly living my dream doing both. My main fear is that I will never learn “traditional” court due to being locked in comp. I am increasingly having problems morally with some of the work i’m doing. I wanted to help people. Not this
I feel you. I did worker’s comp defense for two years and I just couldn’t do it anymore. It’s the only thing I’ve done in my legal career that truly felt immoral.
Unless you want to spend your career in WC I would get out. It is a very niche practice and the skillset mostly lends itself to more WC and not much else. If you don’t like it and don’t want to stay for the long haul I would definitely suggest getting into a general practice firm for a broadened skillset. While you’re still new to the profession, this is still fixable. Once you hit 3-4 years in WC it’s going to be harder to market yourself. People may disagree, there will probably be people who got out at 3 or 4 years just fine, but I believe that’s the exception. I’ve seen multiple firms I’ve worked for decline to interview career WC attorneys because they don’t have the skillset that a general practice firm is looking for 3-4 years in, and if they’re hiring a year 4 attorney they aren’t expecting to teach the basics.
This is exactly my fear. I’m looking with little success right now
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. As long as you’re making the moves, something will click eventually. I think you’re wise to recognize this as a possibility, and this early in your career you can absolutely change the direction.
I’m definitely trying. Job hunting while trying to bill 2400 a year is definitely taking its toll
You have a lengthy runway before you get fired. Act your wage.
I actively try to keep my WC practice lower so that I don't get pigeon holed. I would strive for positions where it's not exclusively WC, like a plaintiff's firm that's a mix, you can use your experience to get the foot in the door for the job with your experience, and then gain the experience on the traditional lit side. If you're under 3 years at this job I wouldn't worry too much about it though, there are a lot of transferable skills. I lateralled completely from criminal to civil at my 3 year mark, no issues with that.
Started last june. Still under a year. I’m definitely looking.
I worked as a paralegal in WC and all I did was medical chrons. As an attorney, I vowed to not go into WC. I had a few offers from attorneys I had met that did both but mostly WC and I declined for the exact same reasons you stated. You are actually at a good time to get out! Do not take another WC job. Unfortunately, you will probably face that the firms that handle lit will probably low ball you..but one good thing you may have going for yourself is that you have probably taken dr. deps so that IS a useful skill in premises work. If you can afford a paycut, take any job you can get doing litigation. It is possible! I know a guy who started in the State's Attorney's Office then WC then liability..
I made the jump from comp to General lit after 2.5 years in a comp firm. It can be done. Just hammer those trial by fire skills. I hate this new job more than the comp job but, you know, it is what it is.
Trust me when I tell you that the knowledge of medical terminology as well as the ability to examine and cross-examine medical experts that you get from comp is eventually going to make you very marketable. Hang in there.
Making a mental note of this for future interviews. Thank you very much
2400 billable requirement is ludicrous. That type of figure is literally impossible unless you bill 12 hours per day for 6 days each week. Don’t be so scared of jumping ship to plaintiff side comp. No billable hours, so you won’t be taken advantage of in that way. Just throw around applications to all associate positions posted on Indeed and LinkedIn, because literally anything is better than 2400 billables. (1900 is a fair amount, 1950 is the norm and doable)
12 hours a day, 6 days each week is 3,744 hours. 2,400 hours is 46 hours per week.
Yeah but you gotta account do holidays, being sick, etc. it’s easy to say I only need to bill 40 hours a week and then you get a stomach bug and you gotta make it up.
I'll be leaving a Plaintiff's PI job in Illinois shortly, turns out I hate civil lit. Shoot me a DM, I'll try to hook you up if you're interested.
Messaged!
>2400 billable requirement You should do extremely unkind things to your boss
You are not locked in at all to W/C defense at this time. Even if you stayed twenty years, you’d still be able to leave.
Why do you hate WC (outside of your current insane billing requirement)?
Where are you located in IL? I work at PL firm that is currently looking for an attorney in our PI group. You'd most likely be going WC along with other types. Dm if you'd prefer that.