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"Statutory holiday entitlement as per the Working Time (1998) Regulations" might move them onto the next person on the list if they're looking to cancel leave.
Return to work online form after been off with a cold.
Had to answer "Did you go to the GP" ("No") and "Reason" because the fields were mandatory (yet in the UK you can self-certify for 7 days)
So I put something like "It would be futile, there are currently no anti-virals for rhinoviruses at this time" and submitted it.
Was told sometime later there's no need to be so sardonic or something, but the reason remained valid and remained in the system afaik. š
I think this is the best answer here. I mean you don't have to put anything in that section, leave it blank every time, but this response is a subtle middle finger too. Like it a lot.
Just put something generic like "personal time" or "annual leave". Not illegal to ask but equally not illegal to refuse to answer or give a non-answer.
Not a lawyer. Ive not come across that before - it seems quite odd as she is entitled for the holiday time, whatās being planned for that time is irrelevant and a personal matter. As an interim stepā¦Could she simply state the reason is ātime offā or ātime to relaxā?
Maybe your dying gran could accompany you to the dick 'n' slide...
But to get back to the legal question, there's nothing illegal in asking you for that information (and they may use it in prioritising who gets leave if lots of people ask for the same days and the business can't sustain it; leave requests can be denied - though it's much fairer to say "first come first serve". This thread alone is demonstrating quite well what happens if the employer is using value judgemebts about what the time is used for; suddenly, EVERYONE has a dying relative or some other made-up reason)
That said, if OP doesn't want to say, they aren't legally obligated to, and I'd doubt any disciplinary action could be brought against them for failure to disclose.
Employer has to either allow holidays OR tell OP when they are having their holidays (as long as sufficient notice is given), OR pay them out if untaken because the company could not accommodate requests.
Legally, there's nothing wrong with asking for this info, but likewise, there's no legal obligation to fall in line.
Edit: re-read and know it's OPs sister. I'm not editing the entire post to reflect it because I'm lazy and it's not all that important to the advice given.
Itās possible the information is being used to determine whose holiday to approve. Time to relax sounds easier to convince someone to give up than a booked holiday away.
OPās sister should ask what the information is used for.
I think itās maybe more like who can I phone and ask to come in if someone calls in sick. Nonetheless she can tell them what she wants and block their bosses number for the week.
>Itās possible the information is being used to determine whose holiday to approve. Time to relax sounds easier to convince someone to give up than a booked holiday away.
In my opinion, it should never be up to a people manager to determine which annual leave request is more āworthyā based on how the person is spending their time off. Thatās not the people managers concern.
If someone books a holiday before getting the annual leave approved then that is, quite frankly, stupid planning.
It's not that ridiculous really. Sometimes an employer just can't give everyone leave at the same time if everyone tries to book the same weeks. Obviously if someone has booked a week off because they're moving house then it's more reasonable to ask someone who has a week off with no plans to move their leave.
Surely itās first come first serve? If two people wanted the same week off, Iād approve whoever asked first. I wouldnāt sit there and choose which one I think has a better reason for time off.
Have you been in a management position? There are people that will book all the key dates for the year off in January essentially blocking those dates for the rest of the team what do you then do when your team is pissed off?
Edit: downvote me if you want but if you read the replies you will see it isnāt as simple as this person is making out. You canāt simply set up an annual leave system based on first come first served it doesnāt work.
I am in a management position. Obviously within reason. You can still decline holiday requests. I had one person who wanted to book every Monday of the summer holidays off in January but I declined some of them because otherwise no one else could have a full week off in summer. What I meant is, if someone books a week off in July in February to stay home and do nothing, then someone comes along at the end of June and goes āOh weāve found a cheap holiday for that week in July so I want to book annual leave,ā you couldnāt cancel the original personās holidays because you might think the next person has a better reason lol.
At my old job someone tried to use his entire holiday entitlement by booking every Friday afternoon off and in the end we got told we had to take a two week block off at some point in the year to stop people doing stuff like that
So basically no itās not first come first served then? What if they had a good reason to book all the Mondays off?
What if that other person has booked every week of school break off to sit around and do nothing before all the parents in your team have?
It still is, but within reason. If your holidays means nobody else at all can have any holidays during school breaks, then it wouldnāt be approved. If the parents think those weeks are so important then they need to be booking them first. Again what I mean is, if someone asks for a week in July to do nothing, it would be approved. I wouldnāt let it sit there and then wait for someone else to ask for that week off for a family holiday and approve theirs instead because itās for a better reason. Likewise I wouldnāt approve one thatās already been booked and then cancel it because I think the next personās reason is better. Itās still FCFS on that basis. Just donāt be a dick about your holidays lol. Plus if someone has Christmas off one year, Iād give others the opportunity before allowing them to book it every year.
I have been in management role and did FC,FS that could be booked once the yearly entitlement reset. But, on the holiday calendar, I would have red dot days/blocks that consisted of our busiest periods and red square "key dates".
For busy periods there was no holiday granted for anyone.
For red squares which was mostly Xmas/NYE and school/bank holidays (service industry, so we were open 365), I would open those dates for AL for a week, two months before. And if there was more than one request, then anyone who had been granted AL for the same period in the preceding two years were automatically refused in favour of those who hadn't. If there was still more people requesting than we could allow absent, I would give the requesters two days to see if they can come to some agreement over the disputed time between themselves. If they couldn't come to an agreement after 48hrs? All requests denied.
It might not be anywhere near a perfect system. But after getting shafted with 5 consecutive Xmas days/NYE because the person I took over from would hoard the "key dates" to herself and her best mate, it was what seemed fairest way to give everyone (including new starters, who usually got totally screwed on holiday ) a chance.
Yeah thatās pretty much where I ended up with my team blackout periods etc, was just trying to point out that first come first serve doesnāt work as you will always get someone that attempts to game the system.
What if its one person has a parental funeral to attend, and the other just fancied some time off on a random day?
A decent manager would look to get the just some time off person to move plans over the dead parent person regardless who booked it 1st.
Edit- managers don't get the final say on staff numbers. You can only work with the resources you are given
If somebody has a funeral then I would just let them go. I wouldnāt bother the other person about cancelling their leave. If you canāt afford to have a second person be off for a day, youāre understaffed. What if someone was ill? You canāt ask someone on annual leave to cancel it on the day because someoneās ill.
Every employer has their own policy, both have pros and cons. First come first serve is the fairest in the sense that everyone has the same opportunity. However prioritising certain reasons isn't necessarily bad. If you needed to book a week off to take care of a family member who has to go for surgery then you'd be quite appreciative of your employer for prioritising that over someone who had booked the week off for a game coming out for example.
Then you end up with the boy who cried wolf. If every time you put in leave, you claim that another relative has just died then it's not going to take long for your employer to stop caring. Very quickly they'll start prioritising everyone else over you because you're trying to leverage fake sob stories. Then when a relative does die, you'll have no luck trying to get any compassionate leave.
So if someone had annual leave booked a few months in advance and then the week before, someone elseās relative goes into surgery, Iām supposed to just cancel the first personās annual leave? That would not happen. Person 2 is more than welcome to ask Person 1 to change their annual leave, but Person 1 is well within their rights to say no.
Well the employer would be entirely within their rights legally to cancel person 1s leave as long as they gave notice. Reasonable notice is considered to be the same length of time as the period of leave. If it's one day of leave, the only notice an employer legally has to provide is 24 hours.
It has to be for a legitimate reason but arguably giving someone else leave can be a valid reason. Particularly in cases like person 1 who is going to have to take care of someone who has just had surgery.
I think āa lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mineā applies here. If they are going to take the attitude that itās okay to cancel leave the boss considers their reason for time off less important, then anybody could theoretically be called back from leave because a colleague called in sick, for example, and their medical emergency was deemed more important than your holiday.
If you need to move house, you need to plan your moving date and book time off accordingly, and if you canāt get the leave, you reschedule the move or do it on a weekend. First come first served should always be the deciding factor on the *policy* even if in practice you can ask people if theyād mind exercising a bit of goodwill.
>could theoretically be called back from leave
Well not really because legally they have to provide reasonable notice to cancel leave. They can't cancel it mid leave. Even with first come first serve, they can still cancel your leave if they feel like it's necessary and there's nothing you can do. It doesn't matter if there's a prioritisation policy or first come first serve, your annual leave can still be cancelled if someone else says they've got a medical appointment and can't make certain days, if there's going to be a busy period, etc.
Not reasonable at all. When you book your leave for any reason it is totally unreasonable for your boss to move it. You will have made plans even if thatās just to relax.
Well unfortunately this is a legal advice sub. Employers are entirely within their right to cancel your leave and they only really have to give as much notice as the length of the leave. If you have a full week long holiday, they only have to give you a week's notice. That's reasonable in the legal sense as long as you're still able to take the rest of your leave at a different time in the year.
Legal or not, cancelling staff members already booked leave is a sure fire way to ensure that they either wonāt turn up and call in sick or will start spending every moment they can looking for another job.
Yes, and since legal advice, this taken from an employment lawyers advice;
When cancelling an employee's pre-booked leave, employers must have a legitimate business reason, such as a new critical deadline, increased workload, or unexpected staff absences. Employers should set out in their employees' contracts of employment the circumstances under which pre-booked leave can be cancelled and any associated conditions.
I doubt very much that that legitimate reason would be because someone else then decided they wanted to take a holiday at the same time.
It definitely could be a legitimate reason. The other individual may not be able to use the rest of their leave within the tax year due to their working schedule, they may be taking compassionate leave and it would be seen in a far worse light for an employer to force an employee to come to work after a death in the family, there are plenty of cases where someone else taking leave is a valid reason to cancel your leave. By getting employees to provide the reason for their leave, it allows the employer to weigh up whether or not it could be considered a legitimate reason.
Write: āfamily commitmentsā.
People at work have herd mentality to conform to dull stereotypes of what one should do with oneās leave time. They perceive āfamily commitmentsā as being more virtuous than, say, travel or adventure. In fact they are secretly jealous of anyone who does non-standard things in their leave time.
just start putting in weird reasons
- competing in semi finals of northern hemisphere paper airplane champions league
- forming a crew of blood thirsty sea dogs to raid the coast of france
- attempting to be first nudist to top of everest
- going to north korea to overthrow lil kim and take over as supreme leader
- going to see if stacey's mum really has it going on
> I feel that is illegal
Itās not illegal to ask, itās presumably (ahem!) so if thereās a clash the manager can use the reason to prioritise who get the time off.
If sheās uncomfortable sharing the info, she could just put the reason as say āmental health restā (employers are wary of messing with MH claims) and say after it was granted she was offered the opportunity to do XYZ, which she thought would help her MH.
Presumably their reasons to possess the data need to be appropriate in line with GDPR so although it might not be illegal to ask, it could be illegal to record the answer (I'm not taking a view on that as I've no idea)
It would not be illegal to record that data. But it would be a breach of GDPR if that information became available to people outside the need to know. Once you have put the reason on that application form , it becomes personal information that is probably covered under GDPR.
Your line manager can need to know, so they can judge whose leave to approve or cancel in a conflict, based on the reason for leave given. HR don't need to know but are often the legal keepers of information around leave.
If someone outside that, finds out why you are taking leave, it could be considered a breach of GDPR.
Itās illegal under GDPR to hold on to data you donāt have a reasonable need for. GDPR isnāt just about data breaches, it covers internal policies for data collection and retention. They could record the reasons for holiday time on paper in a locked safe that is never opened and still breach GDPR if they donāt have any use for the data.
Fair enough. But presumably they could justify keeping hold of the reason for the leave, until you have taken the leave. So that they could make a decision in the case of leave request conflicts.
Although I suspect that's not what's happening here.
GDPR only applies to the collecting and sharing of PID (Personally identifiable information; name, dob, NI number, phone/email etc)
And even so, if it's being asked for and given willingly (and not shared) there's no GDPR issue here.
Every employee shares their name and NI number with their employer and it's recorded. It just can't be shared except where relevant and necessary (E.G shared with the payroll administrator) or agreed by the person whose data it is.
GDPR is *not* limited to name, date of birth &c. Anything *identifying* a person is an important part of it, but [GDPR also applies to other data on that person](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/personal-information-what-is-it/what-is-personal-data/what-is-personal-data/#pd1).
Think of it this way (influenced by the old pre-GDPR data protection act): "Ā£1.49" doesn't identify anybody. But if "Ā£1.49" is printed on a bank statement which also has a name and account number &c then Ā£1.49 is personal data too. Eight cans of beer on a shelf aren't personal data, but if some retail database says that you, the customer, bought eight cans of beer - that's personal data too.
>And even so, if it's being asked for and given willingly (and not shared) there's no GDPR issue here.
It looks like you're referring to the concept of "consent", but this is wrong too. Consent is one of several lawful bases for handling personal information, but if somebody feels obliged to fill in a form from their employer that [may fall short of "consent"](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/consent/what-is-valid-consent/#what11). And in workplaces, consent is often not the best basis to use anyway.
This is very bad legal advice, but every day in r/legaladviceUK there's a new comment with a different, wrong, stupid interpretation of GDPR
It covers a lot more than that, it covers anything that can be used to create a composite ID. Additionally patient information is covered under stricter rules than basic id.
So one item in isolation may not be sufficient to identify an individual, but if combined with (for example) 2 other items which are of the same category and that allows you to resolve the data to an identifiable individual then they are classified as PII and have to be subjected to the same restrictions as other PII.
Just write Annual leave, Private appointment or some other wording that fills the box but leaves ir vague as possible.if she not comfortable.
And best bit. Its not a lie. It's accurate, it just lacks any contest or detail.
You followed their technicality but its worthless information.
āUsing statutory holidays as per uk employment lawsā or āpersonal need for annual leave ā
Absolutely no need to give any reasons why unless itās requested in an emergency and is such short notice that the employer is being seriously disadvantaged by the absence.
Theyāll get people giving sob stories about why they should get certain dates in order to gain preference or using them in order to guilt other staff into cancelling conflicting requests. I can hear it nowā¦.. āBut Stacey has 9 children and is a single parent so sheāll obviously need the Christmas period offā and āBob will be needing the whole summer holiday off because heās got to look after his terminally sick neighbours cousins grandchildrenā etc etc
I am currently in a managers position and our company policy is first come first serve we allow two people off at a time because we are a large team. What people are booking their holidays for is none of the mine or the companies concern thatās the way it should be.
NAL, I think the giveaway as to why they are asking is that your sister works for a major retailer. They will have a minimum staffing level. So they could use it to prioritise granting leave requests.
If lots of requests tick the 'high priority' check, then it may allow the managers to plan for using temporary or contract staff. But this is an expensive option for them.
The managers really don't want to refuse leave requests, it hits staff morale, retention rates, etc. So I can see why they have a legitimate reason to collect this data.
It may also help with data analysis to look for annual cycles of leave applications. For instance, younger parents needing to take leave for holiday and child care in the school holiday. It allows them to plan the cover for these periods.
Whilst 'management being dickheads' is not discounted from the reasons, there may be reasonable requirements for it.
But this also drops onto the transparency requirements under GDPR / DPA 2018. Management is required to be able to explain why particular data are stored or processed to show that there is a legitimate reason for that.
Your sister could just ask her stores Data Security Officer (or equivalent) for an explanation, and they MUST supply it. As I said, NAL, so I don't know the time frames involved that they must respond within.
As others have said, it'll be so they can prioritise leave, and probably contravene the likely first come first serve policy to favour their friends. Also as others have said, it's likely not illegal, but tell her to just put "mental health reset" and they're thick if they fuck with the policy then.
There's a lot of personal preferences and suggestions here but almost no LEGAL ADVICE.
NAL - I believe it's legal (law experts, chime in please??) and an employer can say the reason for this is to ensure that those who have paid for or have family commitments as examples are prioritised over those that want a weekend away for adventure. This is to support the need for appropriate staff scheduling and not to piss off staff that have paid in advance for things or have for example a medically mandatory surgical procedure.
If it's fair is a different question but this is practised across many employers.
NAL but I am an employer, we don't ask the reason but I may follow up the request (as I have done this week) with "I am unable to authorise Friday X holiday at this moment in time as Bob has this date already booked off, could I offer you the Friday before or the Friday after?" And then I find out it's for a date specific event, so then I explain as Bob has it already booked off unless Bob moves their holiday or we have someone trained up to their level before the date I can't authorise that specific date. It may turn out Bob just saw some dates in the diary avaliable and chose them for time off.
We're a small business but a larger company might use the holiday reason as a short cut to juggle holiday dates around, as someone else has said "family commitments" covers a wide enough scope without too many follow up questions.
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It's fairly standard practice in my experience.
It's not illegal to ask and the employee is under no obligation to disclose anything.
If I book holiday for important family events, booked travel or any other non negotiable time off I put the reason in. If it's not particularly important I just say holiday.
Itās not illegal but if she works for a big retailer itās probably against policy. Is there someone she can anonymously report it to? Can she call her union?
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Could it be they allow time off for say bereavement leave etc and just want to capture that so employees are taking the time off under the correct allocation. An entry of annual leave should suffice.
People may be unaware there is a bereavement leave allowance and managers could let them know not to use up annual leave when other allowances are thereā¦
Just a thought
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We have to sign a statutory declaration when we have 2 days off sick without a doctors certificate. Some people worry about it. I just put "I was sick on this date" and sign it. It's pretty simple to give very little detail. Just put "Time Off" and be done with it.
As someone who used to run a rota for almost 100 people, this info can be extremely helpful in giving leave etc as you know what things are ānon negotiableā in terms of life events. Eg my wedding etc. it was never mandatory and people could add info if they wanted. I suspect this might be why they are asking here.
I should also add on a regular the leave was allocated on a FCFS basis unless there was some sort of compelling note about a wedding or something.
I NAL but I donāt think itās illegal to ask employees plans for leave.
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NAL "rest and relaxation". There you go job done. It sounds like some crazy way that they could "maybe" juggle peoples chosen dates around by saying "Well you haven't booked anything". But R&R covers every concievable base. It could be at home in the garden or at the top of mount Everest. The question has been answered. I would only object if they wanted to dig deeper by asking for further information/clarification.
Tbf, most work places do time off based on how many people would remain at work. In my team, we can't have more than 40% of the team off at any time. Putting down the reason for the AL might help them decide who gets it off. I .e. someone asking for a week off to relax, no holiday booked Vs someone wanting to attend a family members wedding?
I don't think it's that bizarre
Not the correct way to determine/prioritise time off ā¦ should always be first come first served. Not who your manager thinks has the most deserving reason.
Exactly, which is why I would say something like 'overseas travel, already booked'. If you're just chilling at home they might feel justified in calling you in to cover an absence or calling to ask a question.
As a manager who has in the past had to sort out annual leave, I don't think it's my place to decide whether one reason is more 'worthy' than another. Is going to a family wedding more worthy than going to a concert or football match? Is running a marathon more worthy than wanting to see your kids school play? Should I decide that people who don't have school age children should not be allowed to take leave during school holidays to accomodate those who do? If someone wants a few days off to celebrate their birthday, is that more worthy than someone who's celebrating their wedding anniversiry? Should my decision rest on whether the birthday/anniversiry is a 'special' one?
If you take the approach of deciding whos request is more important, you could, potentially, have Equality concerns, for example if any of the requests are linked to religious festivals.
First come, first served. If there is a conflict I asked if anyone had any flexibility as a way of resolving it, but I didn't try to judge whose reason was more important.
My work did this but it was optional. It helped if too many people requested the same day. If someone had a trip booked and someone else was just using up remaining days they could offer the person with no plans payment on lieu or ask to move days.
They probably want to know what it is so that if X has a doctor's appointment or foreign holiday and Y has day off walking dog, they will ask Y to cover a shift/cancel their holiday first
Could be annoying if you end up having your holiday moved, but the idea is that everyone gets considered surely?
As others have said I'm sure it's not illegal to ask and I'm sure your sister could say whatever she likes in response
Everyone saying just say holiday forgets the employer can cancel your leave with correct notice and can even specify which days you can take if they so please, so I wouldn't kick up a fuss, just leave it it's a problem
I have never been asked to give a specific reason 'except' for if I request any time in December off. It's the busiest time of the year where I work and they do grant it in exceptional circumstances such as attending a wedding or something like that. I feel this is reasonable tbh, I get others might not. Rest of the year they don't give a toss and just grant it. Without a given exceptional reason they will decline it during that one month citing "needs of the business"
Annual leave is your legal right. You legally have X amounts of days off per year. Yes, there can be discretion as to when you can take this. Ie some businesses are busier at Christmas so, leave at that time might not be possible. Likewise, if every single staff member wants a certain week off, the employer is going to allow that.
So, if it's a business period and the manger is trying to prioritise staff for important things (example someone is getting married they have a real good argument for expecting leave at that time, over so and so wanting paint their kitchen)
But, asling people to document the reasons for leave? Thats a level of nosy I've never heard of. Standard policy for leave would be to document sick leave or annual leave. I would say either your manager or a previous manager brought it in on their own doing.
If this is a big franchise they will definitely have a HR department. Contact them to query why this is being asked and documented.
The forms at my work have the same box, "reason for leave request". I usually put a joke or something that I know will make the person reading it laugh.
Where I work we all know what everyone inc the boss is doing or where they are going during their time off because we all talk about ours when looking, get destination tips good and bad, are we odd?
I would find it odd if people didn't talk about it beforehand.
I believe holidays can legally be cancelled by employers with two weeks notice.plus one day . Seems cruel but I'm not sure if they would be forced to compensate pre booked package holidays etc
The employer should have rules in place about how many people can be off at any time. And have rules about how much leave staff can be booked during "premium holiday time", i.e. School hols, Christmas. If more people want to have leave than can be accommodated it's names in a hat time. First come first served causes bad feeling. What about a new starter? They end up with the dregs.
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"Statutory holiday entitlement as per the Working Time (1998) Regulations" might move them onto the next person on the list if they're looking to cancel leave.
Return to work online form after been off with a cold. Had to answer "Did you go to the GP" ("No") and "Reason" because the fields were mandatory (yet in the UK you can self-certify for 7 days) So I put something like "It would be futile, there are currently no anti-virals for rhinoviruses at this time" and submitted it. Was told sometime later there's no need to be so sardonic or something, but the reason remained valid and remained in the system afaik. š
I like your style
I think this is the best answer here. I mean you don't have to put anything in that section, leave it blank every time, but this response is a subtle middle finger too. Like it a lot.
Just put something generic like "personal time" or "annual leave". Not illegal to ask but equally not illegal to refuse to answer or give a non-answer.
Not a lawyer. Ive not come across that before - it seems quite odd as she is entitled for the holiday time, whatās being planned for that time is irrelevant and a personal matter. As an interim stepā¦Could she simply state the reason is ātime offā or ātime to relaxā?
Thereās nothing preventing her from lying. Or giving a reason that isnāt perfectly accurate. āAnnual leaveā is Ā a reasonĀ
Reason: āI donāt want to work during this time periodā
I'd put "Relaxation and to unwind".
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Maybe your dying gran could accompany you to the dick 'n' slide... But to get back to the legal question, there's nothing illegal in asking you for that information (and they may use it in prioritising who gets leave if lots of people ask for the same days and the business can't sustain it; leave requests can be denied - though it's much fairer to say "first come first serve". This thread alone is demonstrating quite well what happens if the employer is using value judgemebts about what the time is used for; suddenly, EVERYONE has a dying relative or some other made-up reason) That said, if OP doesn't want to say, they aren't legally obligated to, and I'd doubt any disciplinary action could be brought against them for failure to disclose. Employer has to either allow holidays OR tell OP when they are having their holidays (as long as sufficient notice is given), OR pay them out if untaken because the company could not accommodate requests. Legally, there's nothing wrong with asking for this info, but likewise, there's no legal obligation to fall in line. Edit: re-read and know it's OPs sister. I'm not editing the entire post to reflect it because I'm lazy and it's not all that important to the advice given.
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I just put "holiday" as the reason for my holiday request. No one has challenged it so far!
As it is asking about hopes, rather than plans, you could hope, say, to win the lottery during your holiday.
Itās possible the information is being used to determine whose holiday to approve. Time to relax sounds easier to convince someone to give up than a booked holiday away. OPās sister should ask what the information is used for.
I think itās maybe more like who can I phone and ask to come in if someone calls in sick. Nonetheless she can tell them what she wants and block their bosses number for the week.
Which is of course illegal to do.
The employer phoning people on leave or not answering your bosses phone call?
Phoning them to ask if they can come in if someone is sick is illegal? They can't force you, but surely they can ask, right?
>Itās possible the information is being used to determine whose holiday to approve. Time to relax sounds easier to convince someone to give up than a booked holiday away. In my opinion, it should never be up to a people manager to determine which annual leave request is more āworthyā based on how the person is spending their time off. Thatās not the people managers concern. If someone books a holiday before getting the annual leave approved then that is, quite frankly, stupid planning.
Well, a lot of people might book trips further in advance than they can book annual leave
Reason āN/Aā
Thatās what I put on my forms at work.
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It's not that ridiculous really. Sometimes an employer just can't give everyone leave at the same time if everyone tries to book the same weeks. Obviously if someone has booked a week off because they're moving house then it's more reasonable to ask someone who has a week off with no plans to move their leave.
Surely itās first come first serve? If two people wanted the same week off, Iād approve whoever asked first. I wouldnāt sit there and choose which one I think has a better reason for time off.
This right here ^^^^
Have you been in a management position? There are people that will book all the key dates for the year off in January essentially blocking those dates for the rest of the team what do you then do when your team is pissed off? Edit: downvote me if you want but if you read the replies you will see it isnāt as simple as this person is making out. You canāt simply set up an annual leave system based on first come first served it doesnāt work.
I am in a management position. Obviously within reason. You can still decline holiday requests. I had one person who wanted to book every Monday of the summer holidays off in January but I declined some of them because otherwise no one else could have a full week off in summer. What I meant is, if someone books a week off in July in February to stay home and do nothing, then someone comes along at the end of June and goes āOh weāve found a cheap holiday for that week in July so I want to book annual leave,ā you couldnāt cancel the original personās holidays because you might think the next person has a better reason lol.
At my old job someone tried to use his entire holiday entitlement by booking every Friday afternoon off and in the end we got told we had to take a two week block off at some point in the year to stop people doing stuff like that
So basically no itās not first come first served then? What if they had a good reason to book all the Mondays off? What if that other person has booked every week of school break off to sit around and do nothing before all the parents in your team have?
It still is, but within reason. If your holidays means nobody else at all can have any holidays during school breaks, then it wouldnāt be approved. If the parents think those weeks are so important then they need to be booking them first. Again what I mean is, if someone asks for a week in July to do nothing, it would be approved. I wouldnāt let it sit there and then wait for someone else to ask for that week off for a family holiday and approve theirs instead because itās for a better reason. Likewise I wouldnāt approve one thatās already been booked and then cancel it because I think the next personās reason is better. Itās still FCFS on that basis. Just donāt be a dick about your holidays lol. Plus if someone has Christmas off one year, Iād give others the opportunity before allowing them to book it every year.
I have been in management role and did FC,FS that could be booked once the yearly entitlement reset. But, on the holiday calendar, I would have red dot days/blocks that consisted of our busiest periods and red square "key dates". For busy periods there was no holiday granted for anyone. For red squares which was mostly Xmas/NYE and school/bank holidays (service industry, so we were open 365), I would open those dates for AL for a week, two months before. And if there was more than one request, then anyone who had been granted AL for the same period in the preceding two years were automatically refused in favour of those who hadn't. If there was still more people requesting than we could allow absent, I would give the requesters two days to see if they can come to some agreement over the disputed time between themselves. If they couldn't come to an agreement after 48hrs? All requests denied. It might not be anywhere near a perfect system. But after getting shafted with 5 consecutive Xmas days/NYE because the person I took over from would hoard the "key dates" to herself and her best mate, it was what seemed fairest way to give everyone (including new starters, who usually got totally screwed on holiday ) a chance.
That sounds like the fairest way to do it. At my old place those with kids got preference, which was infuriating.
Yeah thatās pretty much where I ended up with my team blackout periods etc, was just trying to point out that first come first serve doesnāt work as you will always get someone that attempts to game the system.
What if its one person has a parental funeral to attend, and the other just fancied some time off on a random day? A decent manager would look to get the just some time off person to move plans over the dead parent person regardless who booked it 1st. Edit- managers don't get the final say on staff numbers. You can only work with the resources you are given
If somebody has a funeral then I would just let them go. I wouldnāt bother the other person about cancelling their leave. If you canāt afford to have a second person be off for a day, youāre understaffed. What if someone was ill? You canāt ask someone on annual leave to cancel it on the day because someoneās ill.
Every employer has their own policy, both have pros and cons. First come first serve is the fairest in the sense that everyone has the same opportunity. However prioritising certain reasons isn't necessarily bad. If you needed to book a week off to take care of a family member who has to go for surgery then you'd be quite appreciative of your employer for prioritising that over someone who had booked the week off for a game coming out for example.
Except that everyone suddenly has a dying relative, if the employer is making value judgements about time off requests.
Then you end up with the boy who cried wolf. If every time you put in leave, you claim that another relative has just died then it's not going to take long for your employer to stop caring. Very quickly they'll start prioritising everyone else over you because you're trying to leverage fake sob stories. Then when a relative does die, you'll have no luck trying to get any compassionate leave.
So if someone had annual leave booked a few months in advance and then the week before, someone elseās relative goes into surgery, Iām supposed to just cancel the first personās annual leave? That would not happen. Person 2 is more than welcome to ask Person 1 to change their annual leave, but Person 1 is well within their rights to say no.
Well the employer would be entirely within their rights legally to cancel person 1s leave as long as they gave notice. Reasonable notice is considered to be the same length of time as the period of leave. If it's one day of leave, the only notice an employer legally has to provide is 24 hours.
Assumedly for good business reason, not to give someone else holidays instead?
It has to be for a legitimate reason but arguably giving someone else leave can be a valid reason. Particularly in cases like person 1 who is going to have to take care of someone who has just had surgery.
I think āa lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mineā applies here. If they are going to take the attitude that itās okay to cancel leave the boss considers their reason for time off less important, then anybody could theoretically be called back from leave because a colleague called in sick, for example, and their medical emergency was deemed more important than your holiday. If you need to move house, you need to plan your moving date and book time off accordingly, and if you canāt get the leave, you reschedule the move or do it on a weekend. First come first served should always be the deciding factor on the *policy* even if in practice you can ask people if theyād mind exercising a bit of goodwill.
>could theoretically be called back from leave Well not really because legally they have to provide reasonable notice to cancel leave. They can't cancel it mid leave. Even with first come first serve, they can still cancel your leave if they feel like it's necessary and there's nothing you can do. It doesn't matter if there's a prioritisation policy or first come first serve, your annual leave can still be cancelled if someone else says they've got a medical appointment and can't make certain days, if there's going to be a busy period, etc.
Not reasonable at all. When you book your leave for any reason it is totally unreasonable for your boss to move it. You will have made plans even if thatās just to relax.
Well unfortunately this is a legal advice sub. Employers are entirely within their right to cancel your leave and they only really have to give as much notice as the length of the leave. If you have a full week long holiday, they only have to give you a week's notice. That's reasonable in the legal sense as long as you're still able to take the rest of your leave at a different time in the year.
Legal or not, cancelling staff members already booked leave is a sure fire way to ensure that they either wonāt turn up and call in sick or will start spending every moment they can looking for another job.
Yes, and since legal advice, this taken from an employment lawyers advice; When cancelling an employee's pre-booked leave, employers must have a legitimate business reason, such as a new critical deadline, increased workload, or unexpected staff absences. Employers should set out in their employees' contracts of employment the circumstances under which pre-booked leave can be cancelled and any associated conditions. I doubt very much that that legitimate reason would be because someone else then decided they wanted to take a holiday at the same time.
It definitely could be a legitimate reason. The other individual may not be able to use the rest of their leave within the tax year due to their working schedule, they may be taking compassionate leave and it would be seen in a far worse light for an employer to force an employee to come to work after a death in the family, there are plenty of cases where someone else taking leave is a valid reason to cancel your leave. By getting employees to provide the reason for their leave, it allows the employer to weigh up whether or not it could be considered a legitimate reason.
Write: āfamily commitmentsā. People at work have herd mentality to conform to dull stereotypes of what one should do with oneās leave time. They perceive āfamily commitmentsā as being more virtuous than, say, travel or adventure. In fact they are secretly jealous of anyone who does non-standard things in their leave time.
just start putting in weird reasons - competing in semi finals of northern hemisphere paper airplane champions league - forming a crew of blood thirsty sea dogs to raid the coast of france - attempting to be first nudist to top of everest - going to north korea to overthrow lil kim and take over as supreme leader - going to see if stacey's mum really has it going on
> I feel that is illegal Itās not illegal to ask, itās presumably (ahem!) so if thereās a clash the manager can use the reason to prioritise who get the time off. If sheās uncomfortable sharing the info, she could just put the reason as say āmental health restā (employers are wary of messing with MH claims) and say after it was granted she was offered the opportunity to do XYZ, which she thought would help her MH.
Presumably their reasons to possess the data need to be appropriate in line with GDPR so although it might not be illegal to ask, it could be illegal to record the answer (I'm not taking a view on that as I've no idea)
It would not be illegal to record that data. But it would be a breach of GDPR if that information became available to people outside the need to know. Once you have put the reason on that application form , it becomes personal information that is probably covered under GDPR. Your line manager can need to know, so they can judge whose leave to approve or cancel in a conflict, based on the reason for leave given. HR don't need to know but are often the legal keepers of information around leave. If someone outside that, finds out why you are taking leave, it could be considered a breach of GDPR.
Itās illegal under GDPR to hold on to data you donāt have a reasonable need for. GDPR isnāt just about data breaches, it covers internal policies for data collection and retention. They could record the reasons for holiday time on paper in a locked safe that is never opened and still breach GDPR if they donāt have any use for the data.
Fair enough. But presumably they could justify keeping hold of the reason for the leave, until you have taken the leave. So that they could make a decision in the case of leave request conflicts. Although I suspect that's not what's happening here.
GDPR only applies to the collecting and sharing of PID (Personally identifiable information; name, dob, NI number, phone/email etc) And even so, if it's being asked for and given willingly (and not shared) there's no GDPR issue here. Every employee shares their name and NI number with their employer and it's recorded. It just can't be shared except where relevant and necessary (E.G shared with the payroll administrator) or agreed by the person whose data it is.
GDPR is *not* limited to name, date of birth &c. Anything *identifying* a person is an important part of it, but [GDPR also applies to other data on that person](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/personal-information-what-is-it/what-is-personal-data/what-is-personal-data/#pd1). Think of it this way (influenced by the old pre-GDPR data protection act): "Ā£1.49" doesn't identify anybody. But if "Ā£1.49" is printed on a bank statement which also has a name and account number &c then Ā£1.49 is personal data too. Eight cans of beer on a shelf aren't personal data, but if some retail database says that you, the customer, bought eight cans of beer - that's personal data too. >And even so, if it's being asked for and given willingly (and not shared) there's no GDPR issue here. It looks like you're referring to the concept of "consent", but this is wrong too. Consent is one of several lawful bases for handling personal information, but if somebody feels obliged to fill in a form from their employer that [may fall short of "consent"](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/consent/what-is-valid-consent/#what11). And in workplaces, consent is often not the best basis to use anyway. This is very bad legal advice, but every day in r/legaladviceUK there's a new comment with a different, wrong, stupid interpretation of GDPR
It covers a lot more than that, it covers anything that can be used to create a composite ID. Additionally patient information is covered under stricter rules than basic id. So one item in isolation may not be sufficient to identify an individual, but if combined with (for example) 2 other items which are of the same category and that allows you to resolve the data to an identifiable individual then they are classified as PII and have to be subjected to the same restrictions as other PII.
The employees name associated with medical information does fall under gdpr.
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Just write Annual leave, Private appointment or some other wording that fills the box but leaves ir vague as possible.if she not comfortable. And best bit. Its not a lie. It's accurate, it just lacks any contest or detail. You followed their technicality but its worthless information.
āUsing statutory holidays as per uk employment lawsā or āpersonal need for annual leave ā Absolutely no need to give any reasons why unless itās requested in an emergency and is such short notice that the employer is being seriously disadvantaged by the absence. Theyāll get people giving sob stories about why they should get certain dates in order to gain preference or using them in order to guilt other staff into cancelling conflicting requests. I can hear it nowā¦.. āBut Stacey has 9 children and is a single parent so sheāll obviously need the Christmas period offā and āBob will be needing the whole summer holiday off because heās got to look after his terminally sick neighbours cousins grandchildrenā etc etc
UK law employers can cancel annual leave with notice
I am currently in a managers position and our company policy is first come first serve we allow two people off at a time because we are a large team. What people are booking their holidays for is none of the mine or the companies concern thatās the way it should be.
NAL, I think the giveaway as to why they are asking is that your sister works for a major retailer. They will have a minimum staffing level. So they could use it to prioritise granting leave requests. If lots of requests tick the 'high priority' check, then it may allow the managers to plan for using temporary or contract staff. But this is an expensive option for them. The managers really don't want to refuse leave requests, it hits staff morale, retention rates, etc. So I can see why they have a legitimate reason to collect this data. It may also help with data analysis to look for annual cycles of leave applications. For instance, younger parents needing to take leave for holiday and child care in the school holiday. It allows them to plan the cover for these periods. Whilst 'management being dickheads' is not discounted from the reasons, there may be reasonable requirements for it. But this also drops onto the transparency requirements under GDPR / DPA 2018. Management is required to be able to explain why particular data are stored or processed to show that there is a legitimate reason for that. Your sister could just ask her stores Data Security Officer (or equivalent) for an explanation, and they MUST supply it. As I said, NAL, so I don't know the time frames involved that they must respond within.
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As others have said, it'll be so they can prioritise leave, and probably contravene the likely first come first serve policy to favour their friends. Also as others have said, it's likely not illegal, but tell her to just put "mental health reset" and they're thick if they fuck with the policy then.
There's a lot of personal preferences and suggestions here but almost no LEGAL ADVICE. NAL - I believe it's legal (law experts, chime in please??) and an employer can say the reason for this is to ensure that those who have paid for or have family commitments as examples are prioritised over those that want a weekend away for adventure. This is to support the need for appropriate staff scheduling and not to piss off staff that have paid in advance for things or have for example a medically mandatory surgical procedure. If it's fair is a different question but this is practised across many employers.
NAL but I am an employer, we don't ask the reason but I may follow up the request (as I have done this week) with "I am unable to authorise Friday X holiday at this moment in time as Bob has this date already booked off, could I offer you the Friday before or the Friday after?" And then I find out it's for a date specific event, so then I explain as Bob has it already booked off unless Bob moves their holiday or we have someone trained up to their level before the date I can't authorise that specific date. It may turn out Bob just saw some dates in the diary avaliable and chose them for time off. We're a small business but a larger company might use the holiday reason as a short cut to juggle holiday dates around, as someone else has said "family commitments" covers a wide enough scope without too many follow up questions.
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It's fairly standard practice in my experience. It's not illegal to ask and the employee is under no obligation to disclose anything. If I book holiday for important family events, booked travel or any other non negotiable time off I put the reason in. If it's not particularly important I just say holiday.
My boss tells me off when I put a reason for leave down. Until I explained that otherwise I would t remember what itās fir
Itās not illegal but if she works for a big retailer itās probably against policy. Is there someone she can anonymously report it to? Can she call her union?
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Could it be they allow time off for say bereavement leave etc and just want to capture that so employees are taking the time off under the correct allocation. An entry of annual leave should suffice. People may be unaware there is a bereavement leave allowance and managers could let them know not to use up annual leave when other allowances are thereā¦ Just a thought
Yep, my work has a similar system. Thereās different types of leave to choose, so the system is asking for that rather than specific details.
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We have to sign a statutory declaration when we have 2 days off sick without a doctors certificate. Some people worry about it. I just put "I was sick on this date" and sign it. It's pretty simple to give very little detail. Just put "Time Off" and be done with it.
an unusual ask, but they can put down anything they want such as skydiving, balloon trips etc, does not need to be true
"MYOB* Event" would be the correct response. *Mind Your Own Business
As someone who used to run a rota for almost 100 people, this info can be extremely helpful in giving leave etc as you know what things are ānon negotiableā in terms of life events. Eg my wedding etc. it was never mandatory and people could add info if they wanted. I suspect this might be why they are asking here. I should also add on a regular the leave was allocated on a FCFS basis unless there was some sort of compelling note about a wedding or something. I NAL but I donāt think itās illegal to ask employees plans for leave.
NAL. She can write down, exercising her statutory right for annual leave and as per her contract. If trouble persists, flag HR.
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NAL "rest and relaxation". There you go job done. It sounds like some crazy way that they could "maybe" juggle peoples chosen dates around by saying "Well you haven't booked anything". But R&R covers every concievable base. It could be at home in the garden or at the top of mount Everest. The question has been answered. I would only object if they wanted to dig deeper by asking for further information/clarification.
Tbf, most work places do time off based on how many people would remain at work. In my team, we can't have more than 40% of the team off at any time. Putting down the reason for the AL might help them decide who gets it off. I .e. someone asking for a week off to relax, no holiday booked Vs someone wanting to attend a family members wedding? I don't think it's that bizarre
Not the correct way to determine/prioritise time off ā¦ should always be first come first served. Not who your manager thinks has the most deserving reason.
Exactly, which is why I would say something like 'overseas travel, already booked'. If you're just chilling at home they might feel justified in calling you in to cover an absence or calling to ask a question.
As a manager who has in the past had to sort out annual leave, I don't think it's my place to decide whether one reason is more 'worthy' than another. Is going to a family wedding more worthy than going to a concert or football match? Is running a marathon more worthy than wanting to see your kids school play? Should I decide that people who don't have school age children should not be allowed to take leave during school holidays to accomodate those who do? If someone wants a few days off to celebrate their birthday, is that more worthy than someone who's celebrating their wedding anniversiry? Should my decision rest on whether the birthday/anniversiry is a 'special' one? If you take the approach of deciding whos request is more important, you could, potentially, have Equality concerns, for example if any of the requests are linked to religious festivals. First come, first served. If there is a conflict I asked if anyone had any flexibility as a way of resolving it, but I didn't try to judge whose reason was more important.
We've got a box to fill out on ours, I just put "annual leave" in it.
Well, that's easy. My holiday is for 'not being at work'.
My work did this but it was optional. It helped if too many people requested the same day. If someone had a trip booked and someone else was just using up remaining days they could offer the person with no plans payment on lieu or ask to move days.
They probably want to know what it is so that if X has a doctor's appointment or foreign holiday and Y has day off walking dog, they will ask Y to cover a shift/cancel their holiday first Could be annoying if you end up having your holiday moved, but the idea is that everyone gets considered surely? As others have said I'm sure it's not illegal to ask and I'm sure your sister could say whatever she likes in response Everyone saying just say holiday forgets the employer can cancel your leave with correct notice and can even specify which days you can take if they so please, so I wouldn't kick up a fuss, just leave it it's a problem
I have never been asked to give a specific reason 'except' for if I request any time in December off. It's the busiest time of the year where I work and they do grant it in exceptional circumstances such as attending a wedding or something like that. I feel this is reasonable tbh, I get others might not. Rest of the year they don't give a toss and just grant it. Without a given exceptional reason they will decline it during that one month citing "needs of the business"
Annual leave is your legal right. You legally have X amounts of days off per year. Yes, there can be discretion as to when you can take this. Ie some businesses are busier at Christmas so, leave at that time might not be possible. Likewise, if every single staff member wants a certain week off, the employer is going to allow that. So, if it's a business period and the manger is trying to prioritise staff for important things (example someone is getting married they have a real good argument for expecting leave at that time, over so and so wanting paint their kitchen) But, asling people to document the reasons for leave? Thats a level of nosy I've never heard of. Standard policy for leave would be to document sick leave or annual leave. I would say either your manager or a previous manager brought it in on their own doing. If this is a big franchise they will definitely have a HR department. Contact them to query why this is being asked and documented.
The forms at my work have the same box, "reason for leave request". I usually put a joke or something that I know will make the person reading it laugh.
Where I work we all know what everyone inc the boss is doing or where they are going during their time off because we all talk about ours when looking, get destination tips good and bad, are we odd? I would find it odd if people didn't talk about it beforehand.
I believe holidays can legally be cancelled by employers with two weeks notice.plus one day . Seems cruel but I'm not sure if they would be forced to compensate pre booked package holidays etc
The employer should have rules in place about how many people can be off at any time. And have rules about how much leave staff can be booked during "premium holiday time", i.e. School hols, Christmas. If more people want to have leave than can be accommodated it's names in a hat time. First come first served causes bad feeling. What about a new starter? They end up with the dregs.