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Got kicked out when I was younger.
Was old enough, but it would've been around the challenge 21 push if I'm not mistaken so young enough to be asked.
Already had a drink, but on 2nd round was asked for ID. Didn't have it on me, staff got manager who said you have to leave. Went down stairs to the other bar but got tapped on the shoulder.
Bouncer at the front said he wouldn't have let me in with ID'ing if it was him.
Was literally him that let me in the clown.
Sounds like the staff did their job, and you took the piss trying it on going to the other bar instead of leaving a licenced premises when asked to do so.
Not sure how being of legal age, and having already been served a drink prior, is taking the piss because of 1 bar staff.
They would have already broken their license when they served me the first drink.
The point that you glossed over, is the bouncer who said he wouldn't have let me in from the start, was literally the one who let me in without asking for ID.
It's a busy bar with typically 3 bouncers at the front you have to get by initially.
But you be you with your aggressive response because I went to the other bar first lol.
Not being able to produce ID when asked to is the issue. Doesn't matter if you're of age and have already been served any number of times.
You were asked to leave, and instead of doing so, you just went to the other bar, presumably hoping to continue being served.
It's a busy bar with 3 bouncers. Of course, they're not going to remember every face, and occasionally, people either slip through or are given the benefit of the doubt. Especially likely if you are of age, as you said you were.
Door staff didn't think you particularly looked under 18, so let you in. The first bar staff didn't think you looked under 18, so let you buy a drink. All good so far.
The second bar staff has thought your age looked questionable, so asked you to provide some form of ID. Perfectly fine for them to do. It doesn't mean anyone up to this point has done their job incorrectly.
You, as a customer, have failed to provide ID when requested. This is where they have a duty to stop serving you, and potentially have to have you removed from the premises depending on their licence restrictions.
You've failed to comply with that request and have "gone to the other bar" refusing to leave the premises when asked to do so. Those are the issues here.
It's irrelevant that you were let in, irrelevant that you were served, irrelevant what the door staff said. Nothing they did was against the law or their licence. Your behaviour, however, was. So yes, you were taking the piss when you chanced it at the other bar instead of leaving.
Again, you be you.
This whole chain was about the bouncer who was adamant they wouldn't have let me in, despite the fact they (and 2 others) had let me in. Nothing to do with regonising me again after.
Keep doing your aggressive rant over something so little for whatever kicks your after, you won't be entertained and I won't bite lol.
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With the DVLA licence check online as someone commented below. There is an equivalent for the NI one, but I think you’ve got to be registered online already for it.
This document will hopefully help you and many others here…
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf
Under the Guidance for Doorstaff
Legally, only a PC can legitimately seize suspected fake ID.
Doorstaff can ask to keep hold of it. If you agree great, but to physically say I’m seizing this… is not a legal move by a door supervisor.
NAL.
As far as I'm aware they need to give it to the police as soon as reasonably possible. So tell them that and take a seat somewhere. Ask for some tap water and wait or go home.
If they refuse to give you your ID back or provide it to the police, call 101 and report your personal property being taken from you and give as much information as you can. Time. Date. Location. Description of the person who took it (name if you know it). The reason they gave. Why you were there. Anything you may have done. Absolutely EVERYTHING.
As soon as you can record all of this whilst it's still fresh in your memory, because you will be asked about it.
There's no need to be accusatory, or to tell whoever took your ID. In fact, don't tell anyone except the police.
As an aside to this, when talking to the police, mention that it's real and you want your property back. Then mention that there could be a breach of the peace of they don't attend.
Yeah that was kind of my (sarcastic) point. It's utterly stupid to suggest that the person who has had their personal property taken off them has to prove who they are to get it back
It's a moronic statement.
If you don't drive? If you don't have a passport?
If all you've got is a Citizen Card and that gets taken off you by some random bouncer... You're fucked.
My advice is to ALWAYS get a provisional license, even if you have no intention of driving.
Citizencard is the single biggest faked ID we see in the industry, I think my fake id draw in the office currently has over 200 in that we’ve acquired since January of this year
Uhh... So I'm theory that is fine but your license can be taken away for many number of reasons.
I personally am fully at fault here and don't dispute it, but I was driving over the limit and had to turn my licence in. I don't get it back for at least two years.
I'm ok with that. Luckily I didn't harm anyone and I was arrested. That's a GOOD THING. It was my fault, but I'm just giving you an example.
My passport is a different issue. I've lived in a lot of countries, I've travelled a lot, but as I've got older I've kind of settled where I am and don't want to move around the world anymore, so I've not updated my passport.
I can fully see how someone having their only form of Id taken from them could be a royal pain in the bum.
Gonna second this one
If my license gets taken from me my only course of action is to show them a photo of the exact same licence on Yoti
I have no other ID, I’ve never left the country, I was born here, so I have no passport or citizen card
I had a young scot card when I was In high school… but that was 15 years, many hair cuts, and 30kg’s ago 😂 so it’s useless now
So if someone takes my license… I have nothing else 👀
I don’t have a paper copy of my license because I’m not 500 years old, and if you think I’m going to take my passport and give it to a bouncer that just essentially stole my driving licence, you’re mistaken.
The DVLA website only shows the number of points and what vehicles you can drive, it doesn’t have a photo or age.
Paper counterparts were abolished in 2015 and have no legal status. DVLA advice is to destroy it if you still have one. Pretty concerning if you’re been managing bars for 10 years and are so misinformed, on numerous counts!
Errr, sorry, you're wrong.
Page 29.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/false-id-guidance
You should record it, then leave it for the police to collect or take it to the station. The onus absolutely isn't on the person who's ID you stole.
I'm a personal licence holder and you're straight up wrong.
They should be handed over to the police, and having a drawer full of other people's personal documents really shouldn't be something to brag about.
Or alternatively the venue should not seize it - what power do they have to do so? It is not drugs, it is a *suspected* fake ID, but until that is determined I should think there is a risk of liability (albeit probably never tested because it’s simply not worth it).
I understand the reasoning and premise overall, but it is immensely frustrating that people are put in this position, in particular when for a lot of people their driving licence is their primary / only form of photo identification;
"OK we have confiscated your proof of ID. Just show us some proof of ID and you can have it back"
In addition to what everyone else has said, lodge a complaint with the SIA (presuming the bouncer was licensed).
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/security-industry-authority/about/complaints-procedure
The SIA request they’re seized and handed to police. On the occasions that you’ve seized ID have police turned up to check it or does a member of staff have to take it to a police station?
idk why people have downvoted you for this. This is typically what happens even with drugs for some venues its kept in a drug box and everything is logged and recorded then its at the polices discretion when they will collect it. A big night club in Manchester or London they might come once a week a little social club in Leeds is going to be less often.
Hahaha, don't be naive, the venue staff/bouncers are taking the drugs themselves or selling them to other people.
Go ask a bouncer who has had a few drinks on their day off and they will brag to you about how they do it.
Have you been taught how to check a driving licence number is valid? The numbers are mostly specific to the licence and it also shows it they are male or female
If they suspect it as being fake, they seize it. They’re advised to do this by their employers. It’s a pain in the ass and everyone complains about it.
You can contact the police, but it’s going to be their lowest priority.
I’d take their advice, return when they open the following day or before they close tonight with some further proof of your identity. It can be a passport, you can verify your driving license on the DVLA website and show them this. If you’re a university student, maybe they’d accept your student ID.
Ultimately there is no way around this, leave a review about the venue, complain via their social media and advise others of your experience.
It’s probably not theft because it would need to be dishonest and also the counterfactual thief would need to have an intention to permanently deprive the victim of the property. You might struggle on both points in the scenario of door staff taking what they believe to be a fake ID, especially if they have a genuine (but mistaken) belief that they have a power (or an obligation) to do the same.
The civil law / fort law would seem to be more relevant.
Okay, if u/Liquidfoxx22 says "as soon as is reasonably possible" and u/rabid-fox is saying "As soon as practical" as a normal person, I'd just like to understand what the difference, if any, is between these two?
To me, they both mean the same thing.
Is there some fancy legal mumbo-jumbo which says there's a difference?
Something can be possible but not practical E.G calling the police everytime you find drugs vs locking it away securely in a drug box and handing it over at the end of the night. It's an important distinction particularly when writing a witness statement.
You’re missing the word ‘reasonably’ - that completely changes the sentence and does mean the commenter is correct in pointing out those two sentences are the same.
I was taught by a police defence lawyer he said something like reasonably practical is better because if you end up in court and say you did something as soon as reasonably possible they can grill you easier on that. Of course its all semantics but they love semantics when they have nothing else they can use. consistency is more important.
As soon as reasonably possible:
Taking into consideration the circumstances, do it as soon as possible but allow for delays if doing it as soon as possible might not be convenient.
It’s a matter for the police as them having possession of your genuine ID without consent is extremely suspicious.
You can see how this could lead to identity theft (I know it’s literally theft of your ID, but I mean in a legal sense) which is fraudulently impersonating you in order to obtain loans etc.
Thats not true Dishonest appropriation of property does not apply here as its not dishonest.
Under common law you can seize property to prevent a crime so we can take IDs providing they are believed to be fake, altered or not belonging to the person using them. It is a crime to use a fake ID to purchase alcohol you can get up to 10 years in prison (Section 25 of the Identity Cards act 2006)
You follow a similar process as drug seizure in this instance so you would seize it, log it and store in a safe place till it can be handed to the police although if you are working in a busy city centre the chances are a bobby will be walk*ing past and you can just hand it off to him. It should still be logged in an incident report.*
You can detain someone till the police arrive for an indictable offence (or intention to commit one) however this is not usually practical so its only really done for serious violent crimes or shoplifting. The other exception is people working in healthcare settings will often be required to detain people to prevent harm to themselves or others. If we detained every drug dealer trying to get into a nightclub we'd end up putting ourselves in a lot of danger.
"You can detain someone till the police arrive for an indictable offence (or intention to commit one)..."
Ooh, not quite. You can detain someone if you believe they are committing a crime, or a crime has been committed and you believe they've done it.
There is no right to arrest for intention to commit a crime. However, you can use reasonable force to prevent commission of a crime. What is reasonable however is very context-specific - you cannot fashion it into a right to arrest someone you think intends to commit an offence. Otherwise the police would just be arresting every wrong 'un for intending to commit crimes.
Holding someone to prevent them assaulting someone is fine. Performing a citizen's arrest because you think they will commit a crime isn't.
I understand many who work in hospitality and security are saying they're completely within their rights to do this, never worked in either industries so I'll take your word for it . My question is do you have to give a receipt or some form of paperwork to acknowledge the receipt of the ID confiscation, obviously the staff member suspects it maybe fake, so to counter that it maybe real so there must be some form of liability in regards to incorrectly confiscating a legit ID. It sounds like a very grey area.
The DVLA provides pretty black and white guidance on what to do and not do with your license in regards to preventing identity theft, I would imagine handing your license over to some civilian in a nightclub just because they said so doesn't come under that guidance.
Indeed it is. But only if they suspect it of being a fake or they suspect you are not the person it belongs too.
Publicans can do this also, I've done it in the past.
They are then supposed to hand it over to the police at a later date.
Legally they are not allowed to physically seize it.
They have to ask for it.
Only a PC can legally confiscate suspected fake ID.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf
The relevant paragraph in that document is at page 26:
> Only certain categories of person (for example, a police constable) have legal powers to seize false ID. However,
any member of staff presented with false ID may ask for it to be handed over. Further, they may advise
the individual that if they fail to hand over the false ID, the police may be called to investigate the possible
commission of an offence relating to the use of the false ID.
I had a citizen card from college (free photo id you get at college) and it was a valid form of ID and went to a club for my 20th or 21st birthday and I was asked if I was foreign and what the card was ??? Like tf
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Is it a crime in progress if the police/licensing authorities have advised doorstaff to confiscate ID that they believe to be fake or used fraudulently?
Also unsure that it would meet the definition of theft as I doubt it would meet the criteria of depriving the owner permanently.
Confiscating someone’s ID is definitely with intent to deprive them of it permanently.
Also, if I tell you to commit a crime it’s still a crime even if I’m Sunak or Charles.
If you're handing it over to plod then there is no intention to permanently deprive. If it's genuine, it gets returned. If it's not theirs in the first place, you've done the actual owner a favour and they get it returned.
In reality you never actually own your passport, it remains the property of the govt so they can cancel it/ask for its return at any time. That being the case if I take it away from you and hand it to the old bill because I believe it's not you, technically I haven't deprived the owner.
Not sure about driving licenses but I suspect that they probably fall under the same or similar guidance.
And whilst I take on board what you're saying about following orders not being defence to a crime, in this case there's no crime committed.
I think it's been confirmed by people on the thread that IDs are not routinely handed over to the police in a ti.ely manner. Which to my mind should be within 48 hours.
There’s no way to know the mind of the employee unless they tell you. Until it’s confirmed what timeframe you’d be able to retrieve the ID from a police station, I would be calling 999 to report your property as being stolen.
At that moment in time, it can be themft since they do not have the legal authority to confiscate, especially not legal with personal data it. They could also be in breach of GDPR should they pass it on to other members of staff or take a picture of it.
Same as when you go for car rental or any other thing when they need a copy of your license or ID. They have to first ask for permission before they copy it.
Eh, it is a crime if the ID isn’t fake though.
You’ve got to be super careful with this sort of thing. If you seize someone’s legitimate identity documents, that they need, which cost them money, you’re depriving them of their lawful possessions.
Even if the accused have a reason, the facts remain the same. The legal and valid ID was not theirs to seize and they made a mistake in their initial assessment.
Who are you to say it’s not a crime? What would you be saying if your genuine identity documents were stolen from you by an idiot?
Only if the intent is to permanently deprive, which, if it's being handed to the police, it isn't. Police would check the legitimacy of the ID and return it to the rightful owner, hence they haven't been permanently deprived of it, just temporarily inconvenienced.
The thing is you have no way of knowing. Door staff are a law unto themselves. People in this very thread have confirmed it’s unlikely the police would be asked to check that night, it would just get thrown in a pile. Especially if, when asked, door staff are vague or misleading in how to get the ID returned.
So it’s absolutely reasonable to get the police involved.
DS shouldn’t be seizing lawful ID. Bottom line. They should only be seizing when they know for certain it’s a dud.
There is no permanace requirement for theft, taking unlawful possession is the line-crossing point. In this case door staff member was in minority of peers believing the ID to be fake thereby failing the reasonable cause to hold test that might protect them from prosecution.
Think about the situation if it had to be permanent deprivation. Every theft case would end at the point of the defendants' statement "I thought it was Ok to borrow and was gonna give it back - I only caused temporary inconvenience". Admittedly there is little public benefit under current priorities to prosecute door staff for temporary confiscation of ID so likely just a stern word from the local Police liason office.
Are you even a lawyer or professional
spouting this? “Only if the intent was to permanently deprive” have you heard yourself.
Just sanity check yourself, are you saying I can go take someones passport in the street, as long as I intended to give it them back at some undetermined future time?!
Yes - that would be a civil matter.
There is, quite clearly in the theft act, a requirement for permanent deprivation.
Practically, if someone did that, how would you know they were going to give it back? It would be treated as a theft and you’d likely be arrested.
In the theoretical world where you can climb into someone’s brain to establish mens rea then the prosecution would fail. That’s not the world we live in though, and I imagine most courts / jury would not believe you.
Or, how about this, you‘re on holiday in the UK and the "confiscated" (i.e. stolen by the bouncer) document is the only ID you have on you and is the same ID you used to enter the country.
They could drive. You don't need to have the driving licence on you to drive a car. Their card might have been seized but the police can check your licence without seeing it and legally you have 7 days to produce it if requested when stopped by the police.
For a lot of items part of checking if it is legitimate is how it feels, the weight and material it’s made from, there are parts that are embossed on certain items, and also there are holograms that have different images at different angles.
So people like to touch, feel and rotate ID as part of checking it.
Yes we do have also holograms etc like almost all IDs.
Maybe it’s not popular in Poland to get fake id when you underage now when Im thinking about this bc I don’t know anyone who got one
What’s the legal basis for this though? Is there case law? Statutory provision?
Appreciating that “seizing” (not a word that I think is appropriate because it implies clearly lawful grounds to do so) fake ID by those without having a specific statutory power to seize them is unlikely to be a criminal offence, but do you know of any case law that can be used by door staff as a shield against an allegation a civil action?
Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 covers the use of ID and misrepresentation
Edit: also Identity Documents Act 2010, Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981
SIA make it clear that evidence should be confiscated and passed to the police at the earliest opportunity. In much the same way as they would confiscate drugs or other illegal substances.
The SIA isn’t law though, so you can’t rely on “the SIA process told me to” as a justification for committing what otherwise might be a civil offence. FA 2006, IDA 2010 and FCA 1981 don’t provide for any person powers of seizure.
I get what you’re saying about drugs and I think it’s a useful comparison *in the case where the ‘seized’ ID is, in fact, fraudulent*. In reality I can’t see anyone bringing a civil claim to recover illicit drugs.
Whereas someone who has *legitimate* ID which is seized (due to error or some other reason) is a category difference to someone who has a fraudulent or counterfeit ID. Where does the door staff stand in that case? Presumably s/he attracts the risk of civil liability (a theoretical question, because you would need to consider what loss the complainant has actually suffered if they get it back shortly thereafter, but notwithstanding an important question as to powers). If the complainant, for example, trespassed then to go and recover their unlawfully seized ID, where do they stand? Can door staff use force in purported self defence if the complainant uses force to recover their unlawfully seized ID?… it raises these questions that have practical implication.
Given this is a legal advice sub there seems to be a lot of people suggesting ID can be seized without much actual legal authority.
I mean the Government produced a whole load of documents and posters promoting the fact that door staff will confiscate suspected fraudulent ID. They produced documents telling door staff what to do when presented with suspected fraudulent ID, which includes asking for it to be handed over.
*asking* for it to be handed over is massively different to *seizing* it without consent. Could you link the guidance issued to the SIA? I’m not particularly interested in the ‘marketing’ stuff that they issue in public information campaigns because that’s not guidance that’s issued to those seeking to seize items and there is, naturally, a motive to give the *impression* (to the wider public) that SIA licensed door staff can legally seize items - even if they can’t. The guidance issued to SIA practitioners would be more interesting as, presumably, HMG would show some caution in having absolute statements that there is a power to seize suspected fake ID without consent of the owner.
In these circumstances government guidance doesn’t offer a legal defence a legal justification.
If I were seizing suspected fake IDs I’d want either a statutory provision (ideally) or, absent that, some case law or judgment which suggests there is a common law power to do so. None exists, to my knowledge. But I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
A UK bank refused to retain my stolen passport that someone was trying to use to open a fake account having replaced the photo (badly).
They called me on the contact number to ask some questions - establishing that the person at the counter in front of them was not me - and they sent me a photocopy of my passport with someone else’s photo in.
The Bank said their policy was that no law existed to allow them to seize ID even if they believe it was fake, and police had advised they must return it to the “alleged” criminal.
Fake or not, unless it is believed to be stolen surely it is considered to be the property of the person presenting it- thus removing to hand to police seems overzealous? Photo of ID and person and reporting that fees more appropriate surely?
So if the ID is believed to be fake, then it would by definition NOT be owned by the official company…? Just be of concern to them? Or is the idea that it’s being held on the basis it’s a potential infringement of copyright?
Don't know! I was addressing the case of a real ID. I guess it it's fake then an offence may have been committed, so perhaps that gives them some power to take it.
Yes they would. Most bouncers are power tripping bastards. My mate has been head doorman plenty and he often had mates (has asked me but I refused, not my kind of job) work the doors without licenses.
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Just as an aside, if it’s a driving licence you can easily prove it’s genuine online.
Nothing bouncers like more than being proven wrong with facts and logic.
Theyll say thanks by introducing you to the pavement
Got kicked out when I was younger. Was old enough, but it would've been around the challenge 21 push if I'm not mistaken so young enough to be asked. Already had a drink, but on 2nd round was asked for ID. Didn't have it on me, staff got manager who said you have to leave. Went down stairs to the other bar but got tapped on the shoulder. Bouncer at the front said he wouldn't have let me in with ID'ing if it was him. Was literally him that let me in the clown.
Sounds like the staff did their job, and you took the piss trying it on going to the other bar instead of leaving a licenced premises when asked to do so.
Not sure how being of legal age, and having already been served a drink prior, is taking the piss because of 1 bar staff. They would have already broken their license when they served me the first drink. The point that you glossed over, is the bouncer who said he wouldn't have let me in from the start, was literally the one who let me in without asking for ID. It's a busy bar with typically 3 bouncers at the front you have to get by initially. But you be you with your aggressive response because I went to the other bar first lol.
Not being able to produce ID when asked to is the issue. Doesn't matter if you're of age and have already been served any number of times. You were asked to leave, and instead of doing so, you just went to the other bar, presumably hoping to continue being served. It's a busy bar with 3 bouncers. Of course, they're not going to remember every face, and occasionally, people either slip through or are given the benefit of the doubt. Especially likely if you are of age, as you said you were. Door staff didn't think you particularly looked under 18, so let you in. The first bar staff didn't think you looked under 18, so let you buy a drink. All good so far. The second bar staff has thought your age looked questionable, so asked you to provide some form of ID. Perfectly fine for them to do. It doesn't mean anyone up to this point has done their job incorrectly. You, as a customer, have failed to provide ID when requested. This is where they have a duty to stop serving you, and potentially have to have you removed from the premises depending on their licence restrictions. You've failed to comply with that request and have "gone to the other bar" refusing to leave the premises when asked to do so. Those are the issues here. It's irrelevant that you were let in, irrelevant that you were served, irrelevant what the door staff said. Nothing they did was against the law or their licence. Your behaviour, however, was. So yes, you were taking the piss when you chanced it at the other bar instead of leaving.
Again, you be you. This whole chain was about the bouncer who was adamant they wouldn't have let me in, despite the fact they (and 2 others) had let me in. Nothing to do with regonising me again after. Keep doing your aggressive rant over something so little for whatever kicks your after, you won't be entertained and I won't bite lol.
Calm down Ricky.
Not if it’s a Northern Ireland licence. NI doesn’t use the same check digit system as GB licences.
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kinda the whole Protestant thing is the rejection of the idea of the papacy lmao
It's easy to prove a licence number is genuine, this doesn't provide any details to check against the physical licence however
How
https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence
With the DVLA licence check online as someone commented below. There is an equivalent for the NI one, but I think you’ve got to be registered online already for it.
This document will hopefully help you and many others here… https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf Under the Guidance for Doorstaff Legally, only a PC can legitimately seize suspected fake ID. Doorstaff can ask to keep hold of it. If you agree great, but to physically say I’m seizing this… is not a legal move by a door supervisor.
NAL. As far as I'm aware they need to give it to the police as soon as reasonably possible. So tell them that and take a seat somewhere. Ask for some tap water and wait or go home. If they refuse to give you your ID back or provide it to the police, call 101 and report your personal property being taken from you and give as much information as you can. Time. Date. Location. Description of the person who took it (name if you know it). The reason they gave. Why you were there. Anything you may have done. Absolutely EVERYTHING. As soon as you can record all of this whilst it's still fresh in your memory, because you will be asked about it. There's no need to be accusatory, or to tell whoever took your ID. In fact, don't tell anyone except the police.
As an aside to this, when talking to the police, mention that it's real and you want your property back. Then mention that there could be a breach of the peace of they don't attend.
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Really? That's absurd. I can't prove my ID is real without my ID.
It's bollocks. Page 29. The licensed premises should be turning them over to the police. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/false-id-guidance
Yeah that was kind of my (sarcastic) point. It's utterly stupid to suggest that the person who has had their personal property taken off them has to prove who they are to get it back It's a moronic statement.
Do you have a Paper copy of your license? Passport? I’m pretty sure you can also use the DVLA website to get the information.
If you don't drive? If you don't have a passport? If all you've got is a Citizen Card and that gets taken off you by some random bouncer... You're fucked.
My advice is to ALWAYS get a provisional license, even if you have no intention of driving. Citizencard is the single biggest faked ID we see in the industry, I think my fake id draw in the office currently has over 200 in that we’ve acquired since January of this year
Uhh... So I'm theory that is fine but your license can be taken away for many number of reasons. I personally am fully at fault here and don't dispute it, but I was driving over the limit and had to turn my licence in. I don't get it back for at least two years. I'm ok with that. Luckily I didn't harm anyone and I was arrested. That's a GOOD THING. It was my fault, but I'm just giving you an example. My passport is a different issue. I've lived in a lot of countries, I've travelled a lot, but as I've got older I've kind of settled where I am and don't want to move around the world anymore, so I've not updated my passport. I can fully see how someone having their only form of Id taken from them could be a royal pain in the bum.
Gonna second this one If my license gets taken from me my only course of action is to show them a photo of the exact same licence on Yoti I have no other ID, I’ve never left the country, I was born here, so I have no passport or citizen card I had a young scot card when I was In high school… but that was 15 years, many hair cuts, and 30kg’s ago 😂 so it’s useless now So if someone takes my license… I have nothing else 👀
What if they don't believe the second ID is real either? Can they keep that too?
Simple, just go home and get a 3rd ID to convince the bouncer…
I don’t have a paper copy of my license because I’m not 500 years old, and if you think I’m going to take my passport and give it to a bouncer that just essentially stole my driving licence, you’re mistaken. The DVLA website only shows the number of points and what vehicles you can drive, it doesn’t have a photo or age.
And because paper counterparts were abolished in 2015… This bar manager has no idea what they’re talking about.
Paper counterparts were abolished in 2015 and have no legal status. DVLA advice is to destroy it if you still have one. Pretty concerning if you’re been managing bars for 10 years and are so misinformed, on numerous counts!
Errr, sorry, you're wrong. Page 29. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/false-id-guidance You should record it, then leave it for the police to collect or take it to the station. The onus absolutely isn't on the person who's ID you stole.
I'm a personal licence holder and you're straight up wrong. They should be handed over to the police, and having a drawer full of other people's personal documents really shouldn't be something to brag about.
Your personal should be revoked then shouldn't it
Or alternatively the venue should not seize it - what power do they have to do so? It is not drugs, it is a *suspected* fake ID, but until that is determined I should think there is a risk of liability (albeit probably never tested because it’s simply not worth it).
I understand the reasoning and premise overall, but it is immensely frustrating that people are put in this position, in particular when for a lot of people their driving licence is their primary / only form of photo identification; "OK we have confiscated your proof of ID. Just show us some proof of ID and you can have it back"
In addition to what everyone else has said, lodge a complaint with the SIA (presuming the bouncer was licensed). https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/security-industry-authority/about/complaints-procedure
Im a door supervisor, depends on the venue. Police advise us to seize fake ID. If its a genuine mistake contact the venue or police.
The SIA request they’re seized and handed to police. On the occasions that you’ve seized ID have police turned up to check it or does a member of staff have to take it to a police station?
Its the police that normally come although the Head Door Supervisor normally deals with all that stuff at the end of the night
They go in a pile, maybe once every year or two a officer will show up and pick them up, or we throw them away.
idk why people have downvoted you for this. This is typically what happens even with drugs for some venues its kept in a drug box and everything is logged and recorded then its at the polices discretion when they will collect it. A big night club in Manchester or London they might come once a week a little social club in Leeds is going to be less often.
Hahaha, don't be naive, the venue staff/bouncers are taking the drugs themselves or selling them to other people. Go ask a bouncer who has had a few drinks on their day off and they will brag to you about how they do it.
Because in peoples minds the same guys that don't have time to attend a stabbing think they have the time to pop to every club a few times a week.
Yeah more or less we have one that was donated we use for training though.
Have you been taught how to check a driving licence number is valid? The numbers are mostly specific to the licence and it also shows it they are male or female
Where is the power of seizure derived from? Act and section please?
If they suspect it as being fake, they seize it. They’re advised to do this by their employers. It’s a pain in the ass and everyone complains about it. You can contact the police, but it’s going to be their lowest priority. I’d take their advice, return when they open the following day or before they close tonight with some further proof of your identity. It can be a passport, you can verify your driving license on the DVLA website and show them this. If you’re a university student, maybe they’d accept your student ID. Ultimately there is no way around this, leave a review about the venue, complain via their social media and advise others of your experience.
Isn't that theft?
Yes, it is.
It’s probably not theft because it would need to be dishonest and also the counterfactual thief would need to have an intention to permanently deprive the victim of the property. You might struggle on both points in the scenario of door staff taking what they believe to be a fake ID, especially if they have a genuine (but mistaken) belief that they have a power (or an obligation) to do the same. The civil law / fort law would seem to be more relevant.
no
They have to hand it over to police as soon as is reasonably possible.
As soon as practical we are taught
Okay, if u/Liquidfoxx22 says "as soon as is reasonably possible" and u/rabid-fox is saying "As soon as practical" as a normal person, I'd just like to understand what the difference, if any, is between these two? To me, they both mean the same thing. Is there some fancy legal mumbo-jumbo which says there's a difference?
Something can be possible but not practical E.G calling the police everytime you find drugs vs locking it away securely in a drug box and handing it over at the end of the night. It's an important distinction particularly when writing a witness statement.
You’re missing the word ‘reasonably’ - that completely changes the sentence and does mean the commenter is correct in pointing out those two sentences are the same.
I was taught by a police defence lawyer he said something like reasonably practical is better because if you end up in court and say you did something as soon as reasonably possible they can grill you easier on that. Of course its all semantics but they love semantics when they have nothing else they can use. consistency is more important.
Based on your post that is being followed up on, you evidently love semantics as well. Maybe you should be a lawyer :)
As soon as possible: do it now. As soon as practicable: do it when it becomes convenient as will not distract from other tasks.
But he said “as soon as *reasonably* possible*
As soon as *reasonably* possible: do it when convenient.
As soon as reasonably possible: Taking into consideration the circumstances, do it as soon as possible but allow for delays if doing it as soon as possible might not be convenient.
It’s a matter for the police as them having possession of your genuine ID without consent is extremely suspicious. You can see how this could lead to identity theft (I know it’s literally theft of your ID, but I mean in a legal sense) which is fraudulently impersonating you in order to obtain loans etc.
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You’re incorrect
Thats not true Dishonest appropriation of property does not apply here as its not dishonest. Under common law you can seize property to prevent a crime so we can take IDs providing they are believed to be fake, altered or not belonging to the person using them. It is a crime to use a fake ID to purchase alcohol you can get up to 10 years in prison (Section 25 of the Identity Cards act 2006) You follow a similar process as drug seizure in this instance so you would seize it, log it and store in a safe place till it can be handed to the police although if you are working in a busy city centre the chances are a bobby will be walk*ing past and you can just hand it off to him. It should still be logged in an incident report.* You can detain someone till the police arrive for an indictable offence (or intention to commit one) however this is not usually practical so its only really done for serious violent crimes or shoplifting. The other exception is people working in healthcare settings will often be required to detain people to prevent harm to themselves or others. If we detained every drug dealer trying to get into a nightclub we'd end up putting ourselves in a lot of danger.
"You can detain someone till the police arrive for an indictable offence (or intention to commit one)..." Ooh, not quite. You can detain someone if you believe they are committing a crime, or a crime has been committed and you believe they've done it. There is no right to arrest for intention to commit a crime. However, you can use reasonable force to prevent commission of a crime. What is reasonable however is very context-specific - you cannot fashion it into a right to arrest someone you think intends to commit an offence. Otherwise the police would just be arresting every wrong 'un for intending to commit crimes. Holding someone to prevent them assaulting someone is fine. Performing a citizen's arrest because you think they will commit a crime isn't.
What’s the common law power of seizure for a member of the public for *suspected* fake ID?
I understand many who work in hospitality and security are saying they're completely within their rights to do this, never worked in either industries so I'll take your word for it . My question is do you have to give a receipt or some form of paperwork to acknowledge the receipt of the ID confiscation, obviously the staff member suspects it maybe fake, so to counter that it maybe real so there must be some form of liability in regards to incorrectly confiscating a legit ID. It sounds like a very grey area. The DVLA provides pretty black and white guidance on what to do and not do with your license in regards to preventing identity theft, I would imagine handing your license over to some civilian in a nightclub just because they said so doesn't come under that guidance.
Even if it’s fake they can’t “confiscate” it from you, it’s just theft of property. Get police out.
Indeed it is. But only if they suspect it of being a fake or they suspect you are not the person it belongs too. Publicans can do this also, I've done it in the past. They are then supposed to hand it over to the police at a later date.
Legally they are not allowed to physically seize it. They have to ask for it. Only a PC can legally confiscate suspected fake ID. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7aeb7ee5274a319e77ba66/False_ID_guidance.pdf
The relevant paragraph in that document is at page 26: > Only certain categories of person (for example, a police constable) have legal powers to seize false ID. However, any member of staff presented with false ID may ask for it to be handed over. Further, they may advise the individual that if they fail to hand over the false ID, the police may be called to investigate the possible commission of an offence relating to the use of the false ID.
So the trick is not to hand it over and wait for police to verify if they are called?
I had a citizen card from college (free photo id you get at college) and it was a valid form of ID and went to a club for my 20th or 21st birthday and I was asked if I was foreign and what the card was ??? Like tf
They should have contacted the police. And you should have contacted the police. Go file a police report now.
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A stunning use of the emergency line.
You're advised to call 999 to report a crime in progress, such as theft of your ID.
Is it a crime in progress if the police/licensing authorities have advised doorstaff to confiscate ID that they believe to be fake or used fraudulently? Also unsure that it would meet the definition of theft as I doubt it would meet the criteria of depriving the owner permanently.
Confiscating someone’s ID is definitely with intent to deprive them of it permanently. Also, if I tell you to commit a crime it’s still a crime even if I’m Sunak or Charles.
If you're handing it over to plod then there is no intention to permanently deprive. If it's genuine, it gets returned. If it's not theirs in the first place, you've done the actual owner a favour and they get it returned. In reality you never actually own your passport, it remains the property of the govt so they can cancel it/ask for its return at any time. That being the case if I take it away from you and hand it to the old bill because I believe it's not you, technically I haven't deprived the owner. Not sure about driving licenses but I suspect that they probably fall under the same or similar guidance. And whilst I take on board what you're saying about following orders not being defence to a crime, in this case there's no crime committed.
I think it's been confirmed by people on the thread that IDs are not routinely handed over to the police in a ti.ely manner. Which to my mind should be within 48 hours.
There’s no way to know the mind of the employee unless they tell you. Until it’s confirmed what timeframe you’d be able to retrieve the ID from a police station, I would be calling 999 to report your property as being stolen.
Doesn’t matter if police have stupidly advised bouncers to break the law. It’s still breaking the law.
At that moment in time, it can be themft since they do not have the legal authority to confiscate, especially not legal with personal data it. They could also be in breach of GDPR should they pass it on to other members of staff or take a picture of it. Same as when you go for car rental or any other thing when they need a copy of your license or ID. They have to first ask for permission before they copy it.
If it meant that person couldnt drive due to not having a licence then yes or was going on holiday soon and didnt have a passport yes
Not in the slightest. An absolutely ridiculous use of an overstretched service.
Sorry, but 999 is also for “crime in progress” not just life/limb emergencies. This is clearly within the expected parameters of the service provided.
Yes but my point is that DS confiscating ID that they believe to be fake or not belonging to whoever's presenting it is not a crime.
Eh, it is a crime if the ID isn’t fake though. You’ve got to be super careful with this sort of thing. If you seize someone’s legitimate identity documents, that they need, which cost them money, you’re depriving them of their lawful possessions. Even if the accused have a reason, the facts remain the same. The legal and valid ID was not theirs to seize and they made a mistake in their initial assessment. Who are you to say it’s not a crime? What would you be saying if your genuine identity documents were stolen from you by an idiot?
Only if the intent is to permanently deprive, which, if it's being handed to the police, it isn't. Police would check the legitimacy of the ID and return it to the rightful owner, hence they haven't been permanently deprived of it, just temporarily inconvenienced.
The thing is you have no way of knowing. Door staff are a law unto themselves. People in this very thread have confirmed it’s unlikely the police would be asked to check that night, it would just get thrown in a pile. Especially if, when asked, door staff are vague or misleading in how to get the ID returned. So it’s absolutely reasonable to get the police involved. DS shouldn’t be seizing lawful ID. Bottom line. They should only be seizing when they know for certain it’s a dud.
There is no permanace requirement for theft, taking unlawful possession is the line-crossing point. In this case door staff member was in minority of peers believing the ID to be fake thereby failing the reasonable cause to hold test that might protect them from prosecution. Think about the situation if it had to be permanent deprivation. Every theft case would end at the point of the defendants' statement "I thought it was Ok to borrow and was gonna give it back - I only caused temporary inconvenience". Admittedly there is little public benefit under current priorities to prosecute door staff for temporary confiscation of ID so likely just a stern word from the local Police liason office.
Theft Act 1968 disagrees with you. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft
It’s literally in the definition of theft…
Are you even a lawyer or professional spouting this? “Only if the intent was to permanently deprive” have you heard yourself. Just sanity check yourself, are you saying I can go take someones passport in the street, as long as I intended to give it them back at some undetermined future time?!
Yes - that would be a civil matter. There is, quite clearly in the theft act, a requirement for permanent deprivation. Practically, if someone did that, how would you know they were going to give it back? It would be treated as a theft and you’d likely be arrested. In the theoretical world where you can climb into someone’s brain to establish mens rea then the prosecution would fail. That’s not the world we live in though, and I imagine most courts / jury would not believe you.
You are 100% wrong. It’s a theft in progress. Definitely would be calling 999.
Think you need to look up the definition of theft. I've linked it for you further down.
Blame the person who takes a valid ID away from someone then.
You don't need to be in possession of your driving licence to drive a car and "I'm going on holiday soon" is not an emergency.
Or, how about this, you‘re on holiday in the UK and the "confiscated" (i.e. stolen by the bouncer) document is the only ID you have on you and is the same ID you used to enter the country.
They could drive. You don't need to have the driving licence on you to drive a car. Their card might have been seized but the police can check your licence without seeing it and legally you have 7 days to produce it if requested when stopped by the police.
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For a lot of items part of checking if it is legitimate is how it feels, the weight and material it’s made from, there are parts that are embossed on certain items, and also there are holograms that have different images at different angles. So people like to touch, feel and rotate ID as part of checking it.
Yes we do have also holograms etc like almost all IDs. Maybe it’s not popular in Poland to get fake id when you underage now when Im thinking about this bc I don’t know anyone who got one
I know other countries do. I’m just explaining one of the reasons people expect to hold it as part of verifying if it is legitimate.
It is not mandatory to have, let alone carry, ID in the UK. It maybe that we don't respect an ID card because of this.
They do not have the right to take your ID. If they refuse to return it call the police.
Except if it is reasonably believed to be fake, it can be held and passed to the police at a later point in time (as soon as when practical/possible).
What’s the legal basis for this though? Is there case law? Statutory provision? Appreciating that “seizing” (not a word that I think is appropriate because it implies clearly lawful grounds to do so) fake ID by those without having a specific statutory power to seize them is unlikely to be a criminal offence, but do you know of any case law that can be used by door staff as a shield against an allegation a civil action?
Section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 covers the use of ID and misrepresentation Edit: also Identity Documents Act 2010, Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 SIA make it clear that evidence should be confiscated and passed to the police at the earliest opportunity. In much the same way as they would confiscate drugs or other illegal substances.
The SIA isn’t law though, so you can’t rely on “the SIA process told me to” as a justification for committing what otherwise might be a civil offence. FA 2006, IDA 2010 and FCA 1981 don’t provide for any person powers of seizure. I get what you’re saying about drugs and I think it’s a useful comparison *in the case where the ‘seized’ ID is, in fact, fraudulent*. In reality I can’t see anyone bringing a civil claim to recover illicit drugs. Whereas someone who has *legitimate* ID which is seized (due to error or some other reason) is a category difference to someone who has a fraudulent or counterfeit ID. Where does the door staff stand in that case? Presumably s/he attracts the risk of civil liability (a theoretical question, because you would need to consider what loss the complainant has actually suffered if they get it back shortly thereafter, but notwithstanding an important question as to powers). If the complainant, for example, trespassed then to go and recover their unlawfully seized ID, where do they stand? Can door staff use force in purported self defence if the complainant uses force to recover their unlawfully seized ID?… it raises these questions that have practical implication. Given this is a legal advice sub there seems to be a lot of people suggesting ID can be seized without much actual legal authority.
I mean the Government produced a whole load of documents and posters promoting the fact that door staff will confiscate suspected fraudulent ID. They produced documents telling door staff what to do when presented with suspected fraudulent ID, which includes asking for it to be handed over.
*asking* for it to be handed over is massively different to *seizing* it without consent. Could you link the guidance issued to the SIA? I’m not particularly interested in the ‘marketing’ stuff that they issue in public information campaigns because that’s not guidance that’s issued to those seeking to seize items and there is, naturally, a motive to give the *impression* (to the wider public) that SIA licensed door staff can legally seize items - even if they can’t. The guidance issued to SIA practitioners would be more interesting as, presumably, HMG would show some caution in having absolute statements that there is a power to seize suspected fake ID without consent of the owner. In these circumstances government guidance doesn’t offer a legal defence a legal justification. If I were seizing suspected fake IDs I’d want either a statutory provision (ideally) or, absent that, some case law or judgment which suggests there is a common law power to do so. None exists, to my knowledge. But I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
A UK bank refused to retain my stolen passport that someone was trying to use to open a fake account having replaced the photo (badly). They called me on the contact number to ask some questions - establishing that the person at the counter in front of them was not me - and they sent me a photocopy of my passport with someone else’s photo in. The Bank said their policy was that no law existed to allow them to seize ID even if they believe it was fake, and police had advised they must return it to the “alleged” criminal.
Fake or not, unless it is believed to be stolen surely it is considered to be the property of the person presenting it- thus removing to hand to police seems overzealous? Photo of ID and person and reporting that fees more appropriate surely?
Most IDs remain the property of the issuing agency. It's in the small print
So if the ID is believed to be fake, then it would by definition NOT be owned by the official company…? Just be of concern to them? Or is the idea that it’s being held on the basis it’s a potential infringement of copyright?
Don't know! I was addressing the case of a real ID. I guess it it's fake then an offence may have been committed, so perhaps that gives them some power to take it.
To be clear op.....it was fake wasn't it? Bouncers aren't going to confiscate your ID on mere suspicion.
Yes they would. Most bouncers are power tripping bastards. My mate has been head doorman plenty and he often had mates (has asked me but I refused, not my kind of job) work the doors without licenses.
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And your point is what? In case you hadn't noticed, this is /r/LegalAdviceUK/
Do you know the procedure in Switzerland?
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