As an ex Hearthstone player, this is how I managed to understand some cards.
Even if we take it further, it’s a 9/9 can only do one action, so if he takes down another character, it’s not ‘worth’ the trouble giving that the ‘meta’ is full of characters with ‘low’ stats and banishing a 2/1 with a Chernabog feels weird.
Yup. Until there’s a card that lets you distribute attack across multiple targets his 9 attack will be unnecessary. He’s overkill against 99% of characters
It's still a 3 quester that is essentially immune to combat. If you can get that for <5 ink, it's a pretty solid card, which doesn't seem all that crazy. It's starting to show up in lists as a 1 or 2 of.
He's great as a 1- or 2-of in a character-heavy deck. Excellent late-game top-deck. But before that, he's not inkable and can brick your hand. So more than 2 tends to cause more issues than it solves, unless you have ways to get him out of the hand again.
I have tried to play test this on pixel born and I cannot tell you how many times I have pulled him before AWNW or with AWNW, completely negating the play 😭
And in AWNW decks! Some Steelsong top8 decks are running him as a one of since, in combination with 4-drop amber hades, you will never run out of cards.
There are so many ways to remove cards with ways other than challenging that by the time Chernabog comes out he's either being banished or bounced back into your hand before he even gets a chance to quest.
"Dies to removal" isn't usually a great argument against a card's competitive viability. Presenting threats that demand answers is how you win the game. Yes, sometimes they get answered, other times they win you the game.
This is facts, every card is removable so bringing that up does nothing to argue the cards value. I personally believe this card could be better but that’s the fun of the game. It might be strong and could win tournaments against the right decks in other decks it might just be useless. It’s all theory crafting. I saw sapphire was never making top 8 in tournaments until recently it showed up as a number 1 and 2 contester. The theory crafting is always so early and by the time metas develop bam new expansion
In this case though, when he enters he clears your graveyard so if he enters for 0 and gets bounced to hand, he now costs 9. So no interaction with amethyst for bouncing it which is a shell where he could have had a good impact, basically removing a character or location before being bounced and replayed.
Dies to removal matters when something doesn't have an on play ability. If you're spending a ton of ink to play something that has to wait a turn to do something, then you're essentially wasting a turn to do nothing in a removal heavy meta.
Very few high cost characters that don't do anything on play are played because of that reason
From my experience using him, it’s takes a a bit to get him out and direct removal/bounce gets him off the board pretty quick so he doesn’t feel worth the cost
I faced him in two or three different decks at my locals.
He fits well in midrange decks. He’s too slow for Agro and doesn’t exactly fit the theme of steelsongs. He’s definitely playable though
I actually quite like him in steelsong due to AWNW. The card loads your graveyard, making him often cost literally 0 ink, and your wheels mean you're relatively likely to draw him later on. It's so great to play a wheel and then cast a 0 ink Chernabog.
If you can get him out early via AWNW, etc he can be very strong. Mid/Late game you dont really want to be shuffling your weak cards back into your deck.
Steel also has a bunch of looting effects, so getting him down to 4 or 5 ink is doable with the right build and you can always pitch him early if you need to.
I have an Amber/Steel deck that plays all 1 and 2 drop characters except for Pongo, Lucky, Shift Queen, and Chernabog.
This allows you to aggressively quest with your 2 (and in the case of Piglet, 3) lore characters, then use Pongo and Lucky as a way to draw more gas while leaving up Chernabog as a cheap beater should your stuff get removed or you needed to start challenging your opponent's things. I can't say how good this is in general, but I've placed in the top 4 with it at my LGS the last few times I've played.
Ruby/Amethyst is still a tough match up, but I've found it isn't entirely unwinnable.
I've seen some Steelsong that play 1. As late game draw you can potentially play him for free after so many AWNWs, shuffle chars back into deck to help keep you from decking yourself out, recycle key cards like robins, queens, tinks. At stage of the game if opponent can't deal with him, next turn he kills anything or quests for 3 which could mean winning
I use exactly 1 in my Lantern steelsong. He's come in clutch a few games getting me the win. Don't want to see him early game, and if you mulligan into him at the start he's basically a wasted card in hand waiting to be AWNW'ed away. But when you do top deck into him mis to lategame it's a amazing feeling watch your opponent squirm. Also works as a anti-mill tool.
He is a brick early game and a mediocre character late game. He's only strong if it can be cheated out very early, before Tremaine, Be Prepared, Maleficent Dragon, Hades, Let It Go, World's Greatest Criminal Mind destroy your late game wincon
I run 2, should probably consider lowering to 1, for an epic Mufasa target or late game play essentially for free with the character heavy deck.
Kind of forces direct removal or a Be Prepared, but is pretty slow and can clog up your hand if you draw it at the start
It isn’t right for my current decks because it’s uninkable, and it directly conflicts with cards like Hades Lord of the Underworld. It’s not a bad card and it’s seen some top cut play in notable tournaments, but it’s a tricky compromise
My friend played him at a low cost, and then I bounced him with Genie in my next turn. So he became incredibly expensive to play again the next turn since all his banished characters returned to his deck. I think it’s because of stuff like this.
The quickest way to cheat him out, to the best of my knowledge, is Amber/Steel aggro. Cards like Simba - Future King, Cinderella - Knight in Training, and The Huntsman have abilities that draw 1 then discard 1, so you can start filling your sidcard up from turn 1, even if they're not banishing your characters.
You'd have to like play Pluto turn one then turn 2 play 3 1 cost cards and then turn 3 play friends on the other side off Cinderella and play more low costs. Probably super inconsistent
None of that helps Chernabog, who needs them to be in the discard pile, not on the board. Unless you're going to somehow stack your deck to AWNW a bunch of characters, there's no efficient way to get cards into the discard pile.
The big problem is that the dominant Amber deck is SteelSong, which wants to play like a zillion uninkables already. Chernabog does fit into their New World game plan and is a cool, big body to try to take over the game with in the late game but they just can't make room in their uninkables consistently, even if they could make a card slot pretty easily.
I love Cherbanog but, it gets fully countered by red. They will play be prepared and then lady tremaine on it and destroy it. And since Red is dominant right now and has a high usage rate, you have to adjust to that. But yes, against other decks it does fairly well. IMO I don’t know what color would work best with him. At first I tried emerald for card draw discard and that worked ok, but I’m not sure what would work best atm
I put him in a red/yellow villain deck where I wanna throw people out with Most diabolical scheme and know I'll be able to pull him and play him mid game.
You're right that cheating cards out is strong, which is why singing songs, shifting characters, and things like Lantern are so strong. However, Chernabog has the downside of being literally unplayable if he can't be cheated out AND he's uninkable. I reckon if he was inkable we'd see a few copies on go wide decks. Maybe if there is more discard synergy in future sets big 'Bog will see a resurgence.
I have him in my super Agro deck. I run two copies and mulligan if he’s in my opening hand.
He’s purely there for if I start running out of steam , or get grab your swords’d cos by that point I’ve lost a lot of one/two ink costs that his cost is one or two (if not free)
I’ve won two games where they board wiped me at 15-16 lore and he’s managed to push me over to 20
I think he’s only worth it in a few situations, and certainly not 4 copies.
That's what I was thinking also. I'm new and I'm looking to make my first real deck and I want to do super aggro but it seems like that isn't a very good strategy since the best decks have a lot of removal
he's decent in hyper aggro decks, as you tend to get your board wiped with Swords and Be Prepared. after that, he's out and a menace.
but he's not really played in a ton of decks
Mickey Trumpet and Chernabog can have him out on Turn 4/5 consistently (even better with Big Goof). I have had Big Goof and Chernabog both out by Turn 5 multiple times.
I could see a Ruby/Amber shell that is built around Rock Star Stitch and cheap characters to trigger card draw with the late game play to Be Prepared and play him for free. But in the current meta this would never work. Gonna be too small to be able to trade into steelsong or Tamatoa. And firing off Be Prepared on turn 7 is gonna put you so far behind that questing for 3 won’t be enough.
If his ETB was removed and ability was “Exert: Shuffle all characters from your discard into your deck. You gain 1 lore for each character shuffled this way.” he would be worth building around. Would also make cards with effects like It Calls Me more important. But as is he’s just a discounted strictly worse Goofy - Knight for a Day (that also doesn’t see play).
Cost reduction by itself is nothing. I’m pretty sure you’ve seen plenty of cost-reducing cards that are trash. Reliably reducing cost on game-winning cards is what makes a great card.
Chernabog’s cost reduction is unreliable since there are few direct to discard support (whole new world, 1-cost simba, etc), is itself good (worth around 7 ink imo) but not game-winning, and also vulnerable to removal.
It's because of the second ability if mill becomes a thing in Lorcana he will see play. Like if you get some low drops and end of shuffling those back in you are just as likely to get those, as opposed to something that could be more useful.
As a runeterra player he is basically like one of the cycle cards that are like 14 costs with cost reduction. Some are good some aren’t. I’ve found him to be a good wheel answer in my stitch aggro deck as a one of. Brutal top deck when you don’t need him so I can only really justify running 1 copy
Insanely bad to have 2 in one hand, and also bad early game you only want him mid to late game.
Many decks can easily justify a 1x and it’s a great 1x, very few decks can justify a 2x and basically none any more than that.
Getting him out cheaply, or even free, isn't all that difficult or rare.
But he struggles to make a difference singularly. He has great stats, but it's not like he's going to wipe the opponent's board clear.
Similarly, it will take him 7 turns of questing on his own to secure a win, making him a big body with little threat of turning a game around, and he offers no protection to your other cards, except as a mild deterrent. Lastly, he dies to any removal cards.
I run exactly 1 Chernabog in my Yellow/Purple villain deck. It runs multiple copies of a lot of the better lower cost villains, 3 shift Hades, and several one offs of the higher cost villains as sort of late game wild cards that catch my opponents off guard and Chernabog works pretty well for that. . Because lots of guys on my board makes Hades stronger, a lot of my weaker villains get picked off pretty easily/quickly which usually leads me to being able to get him out pretty cheaply. He’s not really my endgame, so it’s not the end of the world if I don’t play him. Is this deck any good for competitive? I wouldn’t know since I mostly play “kitchen table Lorcana” with my friends, but probably not. Either way, it’s a pretty fun deck imo.
I have a list that I have developed that I THINK would be good. The gameplan is essentially to use steel draw/discard effects that are cheap (Simba, Cinderella, The Huntsman) combine with cheap high lore characters (Aladdin, Wendy, sleepy) that are fine just getting demolished, and then using Lucky to refuel, the hope is that you are playing a Chernabog AND something else on turn 5. You use the digging to find AWNW, Chernabog, and the secret finisher of 99 Puppies with a full board (Lucky + 99 puppies can go berserk with really just 3 ready characters.
I am a fairly competitive MTG player, but I have played zero competitive Lorcana because I’m trying to cool it on jamming a bunch of games so that I am not leagues ahead of my very casual play group. So… this is probably a crap deck but from my experience with other TCGs (made legend in Heathstone back in like 2015, lol), it SEEMS like it should be good.
He's kinda just okay. If you want to cheat him early he requires a decent amount of build around to load discard early. When he comes into play he doesn't really do anything other than quest for 3. Many other meta top end cards either do something on entering play or serve as an engine to take over the game. So essentially he's a high effort card with little upside compared to other threats.
You just need to have the right deck for him. You have to remember that he doesn't just win the game as soon as he is on the board. I play him in one of my decks and the main issue I have is getting him out in time to make a difference.
In hs, cheating out a 9/9 is strong because it can take out half your opponents health if unchecked. In lorcana, chernabog only quests for 3
As an ex Hearthstone player, this is how I managed to understand some cards. Even if we take it further, it’s a 9/9 can only do one action, so if he takes down another character, it’s not ‘worth’ the trouble giving that the ‘meta’ is full of characters with ‘low’ stats and banishing a 2/1 with a Chernabog feels weird.
Yup. Until there’s a card that lets you distribute attack across multiple targets his 9 attack will be unnecessary. He’s overkill against 99% of characters
9 strength against a big location like McDuck Manor or Tiana's Palace is real nice though
True dat!
It's still a 3 quester that is essentially immune to combat. If you can get that for <5 ink, it's a pretty solid card, which doesn't seem all that crazy. It's starting to show up in lists as a 1 or 2 of.
He's great as a 1- or 2-of in a character-heavy deck. Excellent late-game top-deck. But before that, he's not inkable and can brick your hand. So more than 2 tends to cause more issues than it solves, unless you have ways to get him out of the hand again.
My favorite use for him so far is in steelsong as AWNW fills your discard and propels you through your deck.
I have tried to play test this on pixel born and I cannot tell you how many times I have pulled him before AWNW or with AWNW, completely negating the play 😭
And in AWNW decks! Some Steelsong top8 decks are running him as a one of since, in combination with 4-drop amber hades, you will never run out of cards.
There are so many ways to remove cards with ways other than challenging that by the time Chernabog comes out he's either being banished or bounced back into your hand before he even gets a chance to quest.
"Dies to removal" isn't usually a great argument against a card's competitive viability. Presenting threats that demand answers is how you win the game. Yes, sometimes they get answered, other times they win you the game.
This is facts, every card is removable so bringing that up does nothing to argue the cards value. I personally believe this card could be better but that’s the fun of the game. It might be strong and could win tournaments against the right decks in other decks it might just be useless. It’s all theory crafting. I saw sapphire was never making top 8 in tournaments until recently it showed up as a number 1 and 2 contester. The theory crafting is always so early and by the time metas develop bam new expansion
In this case though, when he enters he clears your graveyard so if he enters for 0 and gets bounced to hand, he now costs 9. So no interaction with amethyst for bouncing it which is a shell where he could have had a good impact, basically removing a character or location before being bounced and replayed.
Dies to removal matters when something doesn't have an on play ability. If you're spending a ton of ink to play something that has to wait a turn to do something, then you're essentially wasting a turn to do nothing in a removal heavy meta. Very few high cost characters that don't do anything on play are played because of that reason
From my experience using him, it’s takes a a bit to get him out and direct removal/bounce gets him off the board pretty quick so he doesn’t feel worth the cost
I faced him in two or three different decks at my locals. He fits well in midrange decks. He’s too slow for Agro and doesn’t exactly fit the theme of steelsongs. He’s definitely playable though
I actually quite like him in steelsong due to AWNW. The card loads your graveyard, making him often cost literally 0 ink, and your wheels mean you're relatively likely to draw him later on. It's so great to play a wheel and then cast a 0 ink Chernabog.
He also helps to stop you decking out against other Steel wheel decks - Mirror matches or Sapphire Steel :)
That’s fair
If you can get him out early via AWNW, etc he can be very strong. Mid/Late game you dont really want to be shuffling your weak cards back into your deck.
Steel also has a bunch of looting effects, so getting him down to 4 or 5 ink is doable with the right build and you can always pitch him early if you need to. I have an Amber/Steel deck that plays all 1 and 2 drop characters except for Pongo, Lucky, Shift Queen, and Chernabog. This allows you to aggressively quest with your 2 (and in the case of Piglet, 3) lore characters, then use Pongo and Lucky as a way to draw more gas while leaving up Chernabog as a cheap beater should your stuff get removed or you needed to start challenging your opponent's things. I can't say how good this is in general, but I've placed in the top 4 with it at my LGS the last few times I've played. Ruby/Amethyst is still a tough match up, but I've found it isn't entirely unwinnable.
I've seen some Steelsong that play 1. As late game draw you can potentially play him for free after so many AWNWs, shuffle chars back into deck to help keep you from decking yourself out, recycle key cards like robins, queens, tinks. At stage of the game if opponent can't deal with him, next turn he kills anything or quests for 3 which could mean winning
I play one in my deck and have played him late game for nothing, he can be pretty clutch
It'll be my 101st card in my Dalmatian Deck.
I use exactly 1 in my Lantern steelsong. He's come in clutch a few games getting me the win. Don't want to see him early game, and if you mulligan into him at the start he's basically a wasted card in hand waiting to be AWNW'ed away. But when you do top deck into him mis to lategame it's a amazing feeling watch your opponent squirm. Also works as a anti-mill tool.
He is a brick early game and a mediocre character late game. He's only strong if it can be cheated out very early, before Tremaine, Be Prepared, Maleficent Dragon, Hades, Let It Go, World's Greatest Criminal Mind destroy your late game wincon
It clogs the deck if you play more than 1 imo
I run 2, should probably consider lowering to 1, for an epic Mufasa target or late game play essentially for free with the character heavy deck. Kind of forces direct removal or a Be Prepared, but is pretty slow and can clog up your hand if you draw it at the start
It isn’t right for my current decks because it’s uninkable, and it directly conflicts with cards like Hades Lord of the Underworld. It’s not a bad card and it’s seen some top cut play in notable tournaments, but it’s a tricky compromise
It gets played as a 1 of in Mufasa oops all characters decks.
My friend played him at a low cost, and then I bounced him with Genie in my next turn. So he became incredibly expensive to play again the next turn since all his banished characters returned to his deck. I think it’s because of stuff like this.
Because there still isn't a way to quickly fill the graveyard with characters. Once we can play him on turn 3, he may see play.
The quickest way to cheat him out, to the best of my knowledge, is Amber/Steel aggro. Cards like Simba - Future King, Cinderella - Knight in Training, and The Huntsman have abilities that draw 1 then discard 1, so you can start filling your sidcard up from turn 1, even if they're not banishing your characters.
Amber/Emerald can turn turn three it on a perfect draw and turn four it semi-reliably for the record. The turn three line kinda sucks though.
AWNW does a pretty good job of it, which is why he's starting to show up in steelsong lists.
You'd have to like play Pluto turn one then turn 2 play 3 1 cost cards and then turn 3 play friends on the other side off Cinderella and play more low costs. Probably super inconsistent
None of that helps Chernabog, who needs them to be in the discard pile, not on the board. Unless you're going to somehow stack your deck to AWNW a bunch of characters, there's no efficient way to get cards into the discard pile.
The big problem is that the dominant Amber deck is SteelSong, which wants to play like a zillion uninkables already. Chernabog does fit into their New World game plan and is a cool, big body to try to take over the game with in the late game but they just can't make room in their uninkables consistently, even if they could make a card slot pretty easily.
I love Cherbanog but, it gets fully countered by red. They will play be prepared and then lady tremaine on it and destroy it. And since Red is dominant right now and has a high usage rate, you have to adjust to that. But yes, against other decks it does fairly well. IMO I don’t know what color would work best with him. At first I tried emerald for card draw discard and that worked ok, but I’m not sure what would work best atm
I put him in a red/yellow villain deck where I wanna throw people out with Most diabolical scheme and know I'll be able to pull him and play him mid game.
You're right that cheating cards out is strong, which is why singing songs, shifting characters, and things like Lantern are so strong. However, Chernabog has the downside of being literally unplayable if he can't be cheated out AND he's uninkable. I reckon if he was inkable we'd see a few copies on go wide decks. Maybe if there is more discard synergy in future sets big 'Bog will see a resurgence.
I had mother knows best played on him and vowed to never play it again
I have him in my super Agro deck. I run two copies and mulligan if he’s in my opening hand. He’s purely there for if I start running out of steam , or get grab your swords’d cos by that point I’ve lost a lot of one/two ink costs that his cost is one or two (if not free) I’ve won two games where they board wiped me at 15-16 lore and he’s managed to push me over to 20 I think he’s only worth it in a few situations, and certainly not 4 copies.
That's what I was thinking also. I'm new and I'm looking to make my first real deck and I want to do super aggro but it seems like that isn't a very good strategy since the best decks have a lot of removal
he's decent in hyper aggro decks, as you tend to get your board wiped with Swords and Be Prepared. after that, he's out and a menace. but he's not really played in a ton of decks
Mickey Trumpet and Chernabog can have him out on Turn 4/5 consistently (even better with Big Goof). I have had Big Goof and Chernabog both out by Turn 5 multiple times.
I could see a Ruby/Amber shell that is built around Rock Star Stitch and cheap characters to trigger card draw with the late game play to Be Prepared and play him for free. But in the current meta this would never work. Gonna be too small to be able to trade into steelsong or Tamatoa. And firing off Be Prepared on turn 7 is gonna put you so far behind that questing for 3 won’t be enough. If his ETB was removed and ability was “Exert: Shuffle all characters from your discard into your deck. You gain 1 lore for each character shuffled this way.” he would be worth building around. Would also make cards with effects like It Calls Me more important. But as is he’s just a discounted strictly worse Goofy - Knight for a Day (that also doesn’t see play).
Cost reduction by itself is nothing. I’m pretty sure you’ve seen plenty of cost-reducing cards that are trash. Reliably reducing cost on game-winning cards is what makes a great card. Chernabog’s cost reduction is unreliable since there are few direct to discard support (whole new world, 1-cost simba, etc), is itself good (worth around 7 ink imo) but not game-winning, and also vulnerable to removal.
If he had ward you would see it run the meta
He's starting to show up in a lot of lists as a 1 of. I think people have been sleeping on this card a bit.
It's because of the second ability if mill becomes a thing in Lorcana he will see play. Like if you get some low drops and end of shuffling those back in you are just as likely to get those, as opposed to something that could be more useful.
As a runeterra player he is basically like one of the cycle cards that are like 14 costs with cost reduction. Some are good some aren’t. I’ve found him to be a good wheel answer in my stitch aggro deck as a one of. Brutal top deck when you don’t need him so I can only really justify running 1 copy
Insanely bad to have 2 in one hand, and also bad early game you only want him mid to late game. Many decks can easily justify a 1x and it’s a great 1x, very few decks can justify a 2x and basically none any more than that.
There's a lot of removal in the game as well, yes he hits for a lot but he still also has to survive after you play him
Getting him out cheaply, or even free, isn't all that difficult or rare. But he struggles to make a difference singularly. He has great stats, but it's not like he's going to wipe the opponent's board clear. Similarly, it will take him 7 turns of questing on his own to secure a win, making him a big body with little threat of turning a game around, and he offers no protection to your other cards, except as a mild deterrent. Lastly, he dies to any removal cards.
I run exactly 1 Chernabog in my Yellow/Purple villain deck. It runs multiple copies of a lot of the better lower cost villains, 3 shift Hades, and several one offs of the higher cost villains as sort of late game wild cards that catch my opponents off guard and Chernabog works pretty well for that. . Because lots of guys on my board makes Hades stronger, a lot of my weaker villains get picked off pretty easily/quickly which usually leads me to being able to get him out pretty cheaply. He’s not really my endgame, so it’s not the end of the world if I don’t play him. Is this deck any good for competitive? I wouldn’t know since I mostly play “kitchen table Lorcana” with my friends, but probably not. Either way, it’s a pretty fun deck imo.
I have a list that I have developed that I THINK would be good. The gameplan is essentially to use steel draw/discard effects that are cheap (Simba, Cinderella, The Huntsman) combine with cheap high lore characters (Aladdin, Wendy, sleepy) that are fine just getting demolished, and then using Lucky to refuel, the hope is that you are playing a Chernabog AND something else on turn 5. You use the digging to find AWNW, Chernabog, and the secret finisher of 99 Puppies with a full board (Lucky + 99 puppies can go berserk with really just 3 ready characters. I am a fairly competitive MTG player, but I have played zero competitive Lorcana because I’m trying to cool it on jamming a bunch of games so that I am not leagues ahead of my very casual play group. So… this is probably a crap deck but from my experience with other TCGs (made legend in Heathstone back in like 2015, lol), it SEEMS like it should be good.
He's kinda just okay. If you want to cheat him early he requires a decent amount of build around to load discard early. When he comes into play he doesn't really do anything other than quest for 3. Many other meta top end cards either do something on entering play or serve as an engine to take over the game. So essentially he's a high effort card with little upside compared to other threats.
He a bum!
He’s great in tournament.
Dies to removal. It's a hard control format.
I run 1 or 2 in my yellow green stitch pridelands deck since if I fail to discard their boardwipes big boi shuffles them back in.
You just need to have the right deck for him. You have to remember that he doesn't just win the game as soon as he is on the board. I play him in one of my decks and the main issue I have is getting him out in time to make a difference.