Those who have been to Europe and used the metro in Paris for understand that this will make a massive difference. It just needs to have police enforcement and they need to be willing to arrest people who try any shit to sneak past.
I agree with this. Metro cannot function as a homeless shelter, we should just build homeless shelters. It needs to function as a clean, safe, reliable form of transportation, for low income people and for everyone else. Homeless people should be able to use the metro to go places just like anyone else, and in fact most homeless people also want the trains to be clean and safe.
Yes, people will hop over gates and find other ways to get on. But you would be really surprised at how much just a little bit of added inconvenience can deter bad actors.
It’s pretty common sense. Fair evaders need to be arrested, as in taken to the station and booked so the experience is maximally disprutive to their day.
Smoking in the train should be an automatic arrest, selling merchandise in the train should be automatic arrest and then banned for a month from the system.
But it seems like the powers that be would rather accommodate the people who abuse the system rather then the fare paying ridership
Yeah, even assuming the cops were gung-ho about doing Metro fare enforcement all day, which they obviously aren't, there's not enough of em to spend all day doing fare enforcement.
It’s like speeding though. Cops don’t follow every car around or say there’s not enough of us to do that so let’s give up. They set up a few speed traps to keep people in check. People need to have the fear that it might happen.
They don’t even really have to do shit. I just want to see them at the stations, that will deter a lot violent crime, and quite a bit of the fare dodging. Give me a police presence at the station and actually functional turnstiles.
Go to any other country, or places like Chicago and you’ll see nice gates that you can’t get through without a valid ticket. I don’t understand why LA has these shitty ass gates. Nobody needs to be checking fares. Just make people pay, and have the cops there to deter or intervene if there is violent crime
Does anyone know what you are supposed to do when you have a Metrolink ticket? It says you get free transfers onto Metro rail. What I do is just go around the turnstiles. If they install proper ones I wouldn't know what to do.
They have free fares for low income, it’s called the LIFE program as mentioned above. This is about stopping crime, sleepers, shitters, and meth heads.
So I had dinner with a police officer the other night and he explained the following:
There is a police force for public transport specifically, however it’s run super thin so the force is mostly overtime volunteers which is unreliable. Police officers won’t volunteer for OT for this as it’s actually dangerous to them vs doing OT patrolling in an explorer. As such, it’s practically useless
Its weird how common sense measures devolve into some weird politic about classism or racism, or anti homeless grand standing.
We need to enforce fairs. Thats it
I mean bro I think LAPD could just not buy an extra helicopter or a new fleet of cruisers and patrol the metro instead. They get billions man I don’t think they necessarily need more to police the metro just reallocate
Actually, in my experience (and I’ve had plenty of law enforcement contact in my life), LA County Sheriffs act like a gang and LAPD are consistently more professional. And you want to watch out for the small city police, I.e. Culver City, Beverly Hills, and Redondo.
I've always thought the criteria to be part of law enforcement should be raised to higher standards. Waaaayyy to many bullies and thick-headed people end up getting these jobs.
This is what’s turning people against the left. I’m a lifelong left voter, but I’m sitting here hearing about these backlashes when anyone says we need to enforce cracking down on breaking the rules. Like, what?
They'll point to how minorities are using the metro the most and then say they are arresting too many minorities. At no point do the two thoughts connect and turn into critical thinking.
The people that fight against fare enforcement usually have "bigotry of low expectation" vibe.
We live in LA, you can't throw a rock without hitting a minority. We are glorious and sprawling melting pot. The statistics are being manipulated and weaponized.
If they cared about people not being able to afford the fare, we can easily give everyone making under a certain amount a free fare pass. And then revoke that pass if necessary. We make nothing from the metro. We can continue making nothing from the poorest that have to ride it everyday while making the experience safer and more pleasant.
*"This is extremely difficult. We're not one to decide who's at fault here between the elderly, metro, and tax paying citizens. So after much intellectual debate between our council, we have decided to INCREASE untraced homeless services in the budget while reducing elderly care spending, cutting public transport funding, law enforcement, and using those budget savings to increase sales taxes on everyone for future homeless services."*
* LA City/County Goons
It sounds easy in theory, but it is unclear how much it really helps in practice. NYC is one recent example. They increased overtime spending on NYPD officers in the subway from $4m in 2022 to $155m in 2023 and the end result was a drop in crime of only 2%. Plus some crime like assaults and burglaries actually went up, so it isn't even clear that the 2% drop is anything but year-to-year variance.
https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-overtime-pay-in-the-subway-went-from-4-million-to-155-million-this-year
“Active police presence” is easy to say, but hard to do well—if you’re just trading mentally ill people rarely killing people for cops killing people (fruitville station) it’s not a solution
The solution to this one would be adding glass in between the platform and the tracks like they have in Asian countries.
In America anybody can push someone or jump themselves onto the tracks. Doesn't matter if they enforce fares or have a police presence. Have to make it impossible.
People have been asking NYC to install those for quite some time, but the city said it’s just too expensive. From a business standpoint they did the typical cold calculus of: cost of installation > cost of a few human lives. In their eyes, until people start getting shoved onto the rails in higher frequency, they’re unlikely to care.
nope. Asian culture is too different than ours. People behave and you wont see crazy people out because its severely socially unacceptable to act like that in public, unlike here.
Glass would only be a slight deterrent, would not solve the problem here.
We could also try housing the homeless. Just a thought. Maybe there wouldn't be so much hate if we didn't force people to suffer a life of constant indignity for being unable or unwilling to work.
We can house them in jail, or a mandatory treatment program. First off it’s fundamentally unjust to give housing to vagrants when people who work have to pay, and secondly you are encouraging more homeless to migrate from around the country if you make their lives easier. Vancouver in Canada tried encouraging drug users with a safe injection site now every junkie in Canada goes to Vancouver and there is like thousands of OD deaths a year
lol. Okay…
So, what happens when a crazy looking hobo walks onto a bus and the driver tells them they have to pay?
You think they just say “ok thanks” and get off the bus without causing a scene?
Because that’s not how things will play out.
Okay. So now we want the drivers to taser the hobos? And what happens when the taser doesn’t do anything but piss off the hobo through the 27 layers of clothing they’re wearing?
You really think these things just automatically stop someone in their tracks?
You don’t think pepper spraying someone in an enclosed space is a terrible idea?
Once they started requiring fare again they only allowed front door boarding. They weren't letting people in without paying fare. Bunch of angry ass drivers complaining because people didn't want to pay to get on anymore after being free for almost 2 years.
Yeah, the motorcoach operators shouldn’t open the door for dude that looks totally deranged.
It’s challenging because there’s not really a social contract much anymore… And I believe that many rank-and-file METRO employees do not want to be singled out on social media or some other form and shamed and blasted for denying boarding to somebody that is X, Y, Z
So, what happens if the door is opened for non-deranged people at that stop?
If there’s one deranged person and a bunch of normies, do the drivers just leave the normies behind to miss work?
Hah, only if you have an Apple phone. Metro could integrate with Google Pay like our peer transit agencies to allow Android users access to the same convenience, but instead we have proprietary bloatware that doesn't even work half the time.
Exactly. Convenient or not, criminals aren't going to pay the fare either way.
That's why the credit card system of paying for rides directly with your card is such a godsend and helpful
I don't ride the Metro often (I live in OC) but I took the C Line from Aviation to Norwalk last week. After trying to pay with card at the machine (nope), downloading the app (wasn't accepting credit card payments at the time) and having only $2 in my wallet instead of $3.75 I just said fuck it and hopped the turnstile to make the train. It just seems super dated as a system and deterred me, someone who supports public transit wholeheartedly, from paying.
Who is doing the enforcing? My dad used to drive for Metro. When he tried to enforce fares, he’d get threatened, berated, and sometimes assaulted by the passenger. Sure he had a button he could press to call the police, but that entailed him having to sit there at his own risk until the police showed up to deal with the situation, which put him (and the other passengers) at risk. I don’t blame him for choosing not to deal with that and instead just let people through.
I drive for Metro currently, we don’t enforce. Fares. It’s in your driver rule book to not enforce fares. It’s in our rules to not even quote the fare unless the pa announcer thing is broken or if someone asks.
>Who is doing the enforcing?
The gates.
* [Are BART's new 7-foot fare gates working to deter evaders? Here's what agency says ](https://abc7news.com/bart-new-fare-gates-evasion-west-oakland-station-bay-area-public-transportation/14301931/)
And then Metro police to mop up the ones who squeak through. But the gates need to be the primary point of defense. It's why castles had walls. Castles also needed defensive troops, but the walls meant you needed a lot fewer defenders to achieve the same results.
Motorcoach operators and a transit operators are the ones who bear the brunt of these issues the most. Word up to your father for doing a great service for the county.
It is so challenging because many people do not want to stand up to an insane person who is unhinged… And then there are also people who will take the side of saying that everybody should be on the METRO for free… But those are people who likely have never had to sit next to someone who is deranged and soaked in urine.
This is understandable on the bus. I've seen those POS cause a whole scene and refuse to leave even if the bus driver tries to kick them out.
For the trains, it's much easier. They used to do random checks at exits and all you'd have to do is tap your card on the device they were holding.
But...but...but that sounds dystopian. The leftists in America always tell us the Scandinavian countries are much more lenient on sanctioning criminals and public order offenders, or subjecting them to controls.
DC has a great system where you tap your card at the entrance gate before you board the train and tap your card again at the exit gate after arriving at your stop. There's a security guard booth at these entrance/exit gates to deal with turnstile jumpers. I was honestly amazed by how much more I liked their system compared to LA.
You are correct that this is much worse for bus drivers and there's no real good answer for that aside from increasing patrols on bus routes.
Japan also has a completely different culture where honor is wildly important and Japan itself is basically an ethnostate. Everyone buys in for better or worse.
Tokyo and Washington, DC have the most efficiently run Metros I've ever been on, and I've ridden them all across the globe. We can learn a lot from them, if the powers that be here took a look.
Yeah see, unless this person is a danger, they’re not supposed to be pulling over a bus and making a huge ordeal over it. Per Metro. If you wanna harass people for fare (aka DEMANDING after the passenger asks for a ride), what do you expect people who are trying to get to their destination to do? Some routes in LA require four wheels. Can’t be putting peoples lives in danger by leaving them stranded, sorry.
I haven't taken the metro since before the pandemic so I don't know what it's like today but there used to be patrols to check people's tap cards and make sure they had paid. I think that may have been LASD deputies.
I would not be surprised if things have gone downhill since then, though.
Are you going to write a ticket for someone who can't afford $1.75? People complain about spending too much money on police and deputies with no safety improvement. They got rid of jaywalking tickets because they found out that police only ticketed minority people.
Yea, assuming 5 days a week, or 20 working days/month, that’s a 50% discount. Or $35/month. Extraordinarily cheap and affordable to anyone working minimum wage
First of all, it’s not.
Two rides a day, on each to work and back.
That’s enough for 10 days. Most people work at least 20 days a month.
Secondly, people have to shop or go meet friends or go to the doctor, etc…
What do you care?
Are poor people supposed to just sit at home and wait to die?
Yes. Because there are other ways to be able to pay a fare or get a pass if one is low income. Besides, LA Metro is the cheapest fair in the entire country by far.
People don't skip paying fares because they can't afford it, they do it because they don't want to pay it and there is basically no method of enforcing payment.
Metro's $1.75 is one of the CHEAPEST in the country, and there's also special programs for very low income folks (I'm talking double-digit free rides and fare capping). If you can't afford it beyond that, than unfortunately that's your problem.
METRO just needs to go take a look at how Deutsch Bahn and the local agencies keep things in check.
I had a conductor slap my feet with a clipboard to get them off of the seat.
Also had a conductor stand next to me as we approached the next station as I tried to play cute and say I thought my student zone pass was OK for this area… He probably escorted me off at a station to buy a ticket for the next train in an hour that was surrounded wheatfields 12 miles from my destination.
I didn’t play cute again.
You think people in The Netherlands have anywhere near the psychotic tendencies and hoboness or the same general proclivities towards altercations as Americans?
When I lived in Germany I took DB and regional train systems extensively and had very few problems. It's leaps and bounds better than the LA Metro, nowhere even close.
Yeah, potentially unfortunately… Dudes got soft egos here
It’s all about “societies eye“.
Like in Germany, there are plenty of recently arrived migrants from war torn countries and countries of extreme poverty in the Middle East and in Africa… but somehow, people don’t get hit by streetcars, don’t steal bicycles, and mostly not fare evade.
Quick Summary:
* They know 94% of crimes are committed by riders who don't have TAP cards, but the percentage of crime that is committed by fare evaders might be even higher since they don't check whether arrestees with TAP cards actually swiped them or have money on them.
* There's no way to determine what percentage of fare evaders end up committing crimes
* The current gates are easy to evade; peer agencies are installing more secure gates to avoid fare evasion, which we could do also.
* Enhancements like more lights, blocking off areas that are of no use to riders, and upgraded CCTV are being tested.
* At the North Hollywood station they're actively deploying employees to teach people how to sign up for TAP cards and educating people on how to use them, and they will study the effects for the next 90 days.
* A list of potential safety enhancements are given, along with the current penalties for crimes against transportation workers in California.
>94% of crimes are committed by riders who don't have TAP cards,
These are facts that need to be placed into Instagram posts and Facebook posts and uploaded everywhere and made viral until we have fare enforcement.
[This is the type of argument you’re going to be up against when you say stuff like that.](https://lbpost.com/news/black-riders-metro-bus-racial-profiling-long-beach/)
Man I hate the idea of more fare enforcement on principle, but if those numbers are even close to accurate then I can't argue against it. I look at NYC and how they arrest turnstile jumpers all the time, and spend thousands of dollars of taxpayer resources to arrest someone over a $2 fare evasion, and it makes my blood boil lmao they could just...make it free. But if people are out here getting killed and it could be prevented by that? Then yeah, worth it. I'm a little skeptical that cops would prevent anything violent though.
In NYC when they arrested fare evaders they went years without a single murder on the subway. Then they stopped enforcement and now there are subway murders. Seems like a good use of money.
> At the North Hollywood station they're actively deploying employees to teach people how to sign up for TAP cards and educating people on how to use them, and they will study the effects for the next 90 days.
This ought to go a long way, hopefully. I know a lot of these guys are illegally entering the Metro network and committing violent crimes because nobody showed them how to sign up for a TAP card.
96% of violent crime offenders didn't have a tap card holy shit. and whats crazy is they talk about spending money buying fare gates and no mention in those slides at least about how zero emergency exits aren't alarmed and people just walk through those all day. even if you had all that buttoned up people will just like hop the fence or walk along the track on the ground level light rail stations at least.
I’m more surprised that 4% of people committing violent crimes did have a tap card. If you’re the violent type, why draw the line at paying for the train?
And I actually got onto the Chinatown platform having NO IDEA I missed the Tap station. 2 escalators up I started looking around and had no idea I walked right by it.
It's still super easy to get on the SD trolley without tapping. There were a ton of people on the trolley that did not tap last time I took it and there wasn't anyone checking at all.
The metro will never be self-funded. It was never meant to be. Public transportation, public funding.
Subsidies got it built and keep it going. It's a necessary cost to the city.
That’s cute. Tokyos public transit is profitable. Mayor Tom Bradley almost made public transit in LA profitable until the Red Car network failed (for unrelated reasons). Profitability is the only way to sustain a public transit system AND keep it clean, reliable and usable by locals.
All this city needed to do was build a station at the airport and Dodgers Stadium and the whole system would’ve paid for itself.
Yay now all the criminals can ride the metro! (Fun fact, I bet most of them don't pay taxes) So now you're punishing ACTUAL working tax-paying citizens, nobody wins
Police stations are taxpayer funded. Try to assert your RIGHT to be in there and see where that gets you.
Our Metro system, despite all its faults, is rad, and should be respected. It's a priveledge to ride it, not a right. You have two legs, if you decide to forgo your priveleges to the sytem by disrespecting it or damaging it, nothing is stoppping you from walking to your destination.
I drove for metro for 15 years. 12 in south LA and 3 in the valley. Literally ANYONE can walk on the bus. Do you expect operators to risk their life for $2?
Oh you are right, they only make 25 cents per dollar. And then Spend 75 cents to enforce fair evasion. And that is only going to go up when they have their own police force.
this fare enforcement nonsense is being pushed by a few astroturfers. Its been a concentrated effort and its kind of comical to watch the fare enforcement theater going on and seeing Metro’s service everywhere else begin to suffer. Just wanting to steal Metro’s money and line their law enforcement pockets.
Same song and dance.
2019 was a good time for Metro to put in proper fare gates for the Blue Line. All that time just for marginal improvements. But hey we got some new signage!!
I've notice a lot more LEO activity both Metro and LAPD at the stations, but a lot of it is inconsistent with 15+ guys at one station and then 0 at another. They all seem to vanish at non-rush hour times.
I also see an obvious homeless just turn around and nope back onto the train when heading toward the gates when they see they are going to run into enforcement.
I've lived in Europe, East Asia, SF, and now LA (and visited NY many times). I've taken the metro in all those places and this is my opinion to make LA metro safer:
1. Enforce fares at the entrance, exit, AND inside the train. In NY you can't even enter without paying and the exits are blocked off with huge metal cages where you can only go one way. NY is more population dense yet there's less incidents than LA. Same with Europe - there's metro staff that check your tap card at random times with their tap technology. You get caught without tapping in, you get kicked off and face a fine. If people are worried this will negatively affect low income households, then provide a program that will subsidize low income household fares.
2. Put emergency call buttons (or alternatives). In Asia, they have emergency call buttons in every section of the train. If weirdos abuse the button, then instead put/advertise a number in every place, where you can text discreetly while pretending to use your phone to a central metro phone line. The operator can send units to that part of the train.
3. Also in Asia, there are cameras in every train so responders can see incidents in real time. It's a public area so everyone should expect to be on camera, for safety. People film others in public all the time anyways.
One idea I had was give people a heads up ahead of time, that way the honest people who legitimately can't afford fares can apply for the LIFE program.
Metro has been promoting their free and reduced fare programs for years. At this point if you're applying for it, it's on you. Instal real faregates on all rail stops starting with subways and enforce fares!
Have a guard/guards with batons or another physical assault weapon standing at the turnstiles to enforce fare. The only issue is people that complain when someone jumps and is beaten rightfully. Like - they had it coming.
Yeah and they need to be present either on the train or at ALL stations, not just the nicer ones; or hiding behind the first set of stairs staring at their phone like I've seen countless times.
This is what Phoenix Valley Metro does...they have security on trains.
Your tickets get checked, people are there. Felt safe. Lots of different types of people that would make me question getting on-board otherwise. Maybe it is time to learn from our neighboring states.
[https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/pages/downloads/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/2400358601-23-transit-security-fact-sheets\_english-v1\_ada\_sb.pdf](https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/pages/downloads/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/2400358601-23-transit-security-fact-sheets_english-v1_ada_sb.pdf)
100% fare enforcement or free tap cards for people experiencing financial hardship. But no one gets on without a card.
The majority of the people causing trouble on the metro would be too drugged up to figure out how to apply for the free card.
They just need a gate like every good metro system in the world. The fact you can just walk up to the train and get on without even hopping a turnstile is crazy.
Enforcing fares isn't just about preventing crime—it's about creating a fair and safe Metro for everyone. Let's make sure everyone pays their fair share to keep our transit system running smoothly.
Metro needs to take fare evasion seriously it's always the shit heads that don't pay up and everyone else has to suffer. Whether it's music blasting or tagging or just all around tomfoolery. When I see someone with no ticket they make up some lame excuse and enforcement tells them to have one next time.
Saw a bus the other day that had the marquee say the line number then next it said "have fair ready?" I'm sure it was a typo or glitch but it feels like that's the rules for riding metro.
I just spent a week in Chicago without a car, rode the blue, red, and green L trains and the Metra everywhere I needed to go, and never felt unsafe even late at night. And the train cars were mostly clean.
I will say that the elevators in the downtown train stations smelled like a ballpark trough urinal that went unflushed for a whole summer. Still, it’s way easier to hold my breath for a 30-second elevator ride than for a 30-minute subway ride.
5 years ago I was traveling in Amsterdam. I had purchased an AYCE transit pass that lasted 3 days or so.
This tram pulls up at the train station. Signs indicate that one should load into the rear car. I step in. There is an employee sitting at a customer service desk on the train! If you can't tag on then you need to figure out how to settle up ASAP !
[pic1](https://www.eurogunzel.com/2021/09/amsterdam-tram-customer-service-counter/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/a3xkbo/trams\_in\_amsterdam\_have\_a\_service\_agent\_that\_sits/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/a3xkbo/trams_in_amsterdam_have_a_service_agent_that_sits/)
Those who have been to Europe and used the metro in Paris for understand that this will make a massive difference. It just needs to have police enforcement and they need to be willing to arrest people who try any shit to sneak past.
I agree with this. Metro cannot function as a homeless shelter, we should just build homeless shelters. It needs to function as a clean, safe, reliable form of transportation, for low income people and for everyone else. Homeless people should be able to use the metro to go places just like anyone else, and in fact most homeless people also want the trains to be clean and safe. Yes, people will hop over gates and find other ways to get on. But you would be really surprised at how much just a little bit of added inconvenience can deter bad actors.
One month after they enforce fares you'll see activists claiming that it's anti-homeless discrimination.
They already are
It’s pretty common sense. Fair evaders need to be arrested, as in taken to the station and booked so the experience is maximally disprutive to their day. Smoking in the train should be an automatic arrest, selling merchandise in the train should be automatic arrest and then banned for a month from the system. But it seems like the powers that be would rather accommodate the people who abuse the system rather then the fare paying ridership
The half assed "checks" they currently do only ask you produce a tap card. They don't ever see if it even has money on it.
I mean like upgrading the turnstiles like BART is currently doing. It's a machine, not a person checking.
Yeah, even assuming the cops were gung-ho about doing Metro fare enforcement all day, which they obviously aren't, there's not enough of em to spend all day doing fare enforcement.
It’s like speeding though. Cops don’t follow every car around or say there’s not enough of us to do that so let’s give up. They set up a few speed traps to keep people in check. People need to have the fear that it might happen.
That doesn’t even work. See: any freeway.
They don’t even really have to do shit. I just want to see them at the stations, that will deter a lot violent crime, and quite a bit of the fare dodging. Give me a police presence at the station and actually functional turnstiles. Go to any other country, or places like Chicago and you’ll see nice gates that you can’t get through without a valid ticket. I don’t understand why LA has these shitty ass gates. Nobody needs to be checking fares. Just make people pay, and have the cops there to deter or intervene if there is violent crime
Does anyone know what you are supposed to do when you have a Metrolink ticket? It says you get free transfers onto Metro rail. What I do is just go around the turnstiles. If they install proper ones I wouldn't know what to do.
Increase fares and then enforce it.
I don't think punishing the large amount of low income people who rely on Metro to get them to their job and back is a good idea.
FYI LA Metro is by far the cheapest transit in the entire country.
Even cheaper when you consider most people just ride for free.
🆗
They have free fares for low income, it’s called the LIFE program as mentioned above. This is about stopping crime, sleepers, shitters, and meth heads.
Yeah, but increasing fares doesn't do anything to stop people who straight up don't pay them to begin with.
BART just had a homeless person murder an elderly woman by shoving her onto tracks. Fare enforcement combined with active police presence is necessary
So I had dinner with a police officer the other night and he explained the following: There is a police force for public transport specifically, however it’s run super thin so the force is mostly overtime volunteers which is unreliable. Police officers won’t volunteer for OT for this as it’s actually dangerous to them vs doing OT patrolling in an explorer. As such, it’s practically useless
It’s stupid how easy it is.
Its weird how common sense measures devolve into some weird politic about classism or racism, or anti homeless grand standing. We need to enforce fairs. Thats it
Yes, let’s spend more money on police so LAPD can set new candy crush records. You two are so smart!
Thanks for the intelligent discourse. I’m sure this has taken you far in life
I mean bro I think LAPD could just not buy an extra helicopter or a new fleet of cruisers and patrol the metro instead. They get billions man I don’t think they necessarily need more to police the metro just reallocate
But no one here suggested giving them more money...
The problem is our police aren't level headed responsible citizens. LAPD is basically a gang
If metro gets its own enforcement arm it would hopefully lead to more competent teams
Actually, in my experience (and I’ve had plenty of law enforcement contact in my life), LA County Sheriffs act like a gang and LAPD are consistently more professional. And you want to watch out for the small city police, I.e. Culver City, Beverly Hills, and Redondo.
I've always thought the criteria to be part of law enforcement should be raised to higher standards. Waaaayyy to many bullies and thick-headed people end up getting these jobs.
This is what’s turning people against the left. I’m a lifelong left voter, but I’m sitting here hearing about these backlashes when anyone says we need to enforce cracking down on breaking the rules. Like, what?
They'll point to how minorities are using the metro the most and then say they are arresting too many minorities. At no point do the two thoughts connect and turn into critical thinking. The people that fight against fare enforcement usually have "bigotry of low expectation" vibe. We live in LA, you can't throw a rock without hitting a minority. We are glorious and sprawling melting pot. The statistics are being manipulated and weaponized. If they cared about people not being able to afford the fare, we can easily give everyone making under a certain amount a free fare pass. And then revoke that pass if necessary. We make nothing from the metro. We can continue making nothing from the poorest that have to ride it everyday while making the experience safer and more pleasant.
Yeah but enforcing fares is done precisely to keep those people out and thus diminishing crime.
*"This is extremely difficult. We're not one to decide who's at fault here between the elderly, metro, and tax paying citizens. So after much intellectual debate between our council, we have decided to INCREASE untraced homeless services in the budget while reducing elderly care spending, cutting public transport funding, law enforcement, and using those budget savings to increase sales taxes on everyone for future homeless services."* * LA City/County Goons
It sounds easy in theory, but it is unclear how much it really helps in practice. NYC is one recent example. They increased overtime spending on NYPD officers in the subway from $4m in 2022 to $155m in 2023 and the end result was a drop in crime of only 2%. Plus some crime like assaults and burglaries actually went up, so it isn't even clear that the 2% drop is anything but year-to-year variance. https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-overtime-pay-in-the-subway-went-from-4-million-to-155-million-this-year
“Active police presence” is easy to say, but hard to do well—if you’re just trading mentally ill people rarely killing people for cops killing people (fruitville station) it’s not a solution
starting to notice some private security on bart, tbd if they do anything
The solution to this one would be adding glass in between the platform and the tracks like they have in Asian countries. In America anybody can push someone or jump themselves onto the tracks. Doesn't matter if they enforce fares or have a police presence. Have to make it impossible.
Weird how every time it’s been a mentally unhoused person
> Weird how every time it’s been a mentally unhoused person I agree we need to find homes for their brains
People have been asking NYC to install those for quite some time, but the city said it’s just too expensive. From a business standpoint they did the typical cold calculus of: cost of installation > cost of a few human lives. In their eyes, until people start getting shoved onto the rails in higher frequency, they’re unlikely to care.
nope. Asian culture is too different than ours. People behave and you wont see crazy people out because its severely socially unacceptable to act like that in public, unlike here. Glass would only be a slight deterrent, would not solve the problem here.
We could also try housing the homeless. Just a thought. Maybe there wouldn't be so much hate if we didn't force people to suffer a life of constant indignity for being unable or unwilling to work.
We can house them in jail, or a mandatory treatment program. First off it’s fundamentally unjust to give housing to vagrants when people who work have to pay, and secondly you are encouraging more homeless to migrate from around the country if you make their lives easier. Vancouver in Canada tried encouraging drug users with a safe injection site now every junkie in Canada goes to Vancouver and there is like thousands of OD deaths a year
Plenty available for those who want it. Have you ever actually interacted with them?
lol. Okay… So, what happens when a crazy looking hobo walks onto a bus and the driver tells them they have to pay? You think they just say “ok thanks” and get off the bus without causing a scene? Because that’s not how things will play out.
So just let people steal services?
lol
Taser
Okay. So now we want the drivers to taser the hobos? And what happens when the taser doesn’t do anything but piss off the hobo through the 27 layers of clothing they’re wearing?
Pepper spray and taser
You really think these things just automatically stop someone in their tracks? You don’t think pepper spraying someone in an enclosed space is a terrible idea?
Bus drivers weren't letting hobos on the bus during the pandemic. Don't see why they can't do it now.
The buses were basically free for a long time during the pandemic. No clue what you’re talking about. Most drivers were letting everyone on.
Once they started requiring fare again they only allowed front door boarding. They weren't letting people in without paying fare. Bunch of angry ass drivers complaining because people didn't want to pay to get on anymore after being free for almost 2 years.
lol. Coulda fooled me.
What busses were you talking about
I wasn’t this bad before…
NSS But it’s this bad now.
Yeah, the motorcoach operators shouldn’t open the door for dude that looks totally deranged. It’s challenging because there’s not really a social contract much anymore… And I believe that many rank-and-file METRO employees do not want to be singled out on social media or some other form and shamed and blasted for denying boarding to somebody that is X, Y, Z
So, what happens if the door is opened for non-deranged people at that stop? If there’s one deranged person and a bunch of normies, do the drivers just leave the normies behind to miss work?
And also make it even remotely convenient to pay for fares while they're at it.
What? It takes 10 seconds to add funds to my tap card using my Apple wallet. One of the few things Metro does right.
Hah, only if you have an Apple phone. Metro could integrate with Google Pay like our peer transit agencies to allow Android users access to the same convenience, but instead we have proprietary bloatware that doesn't even work half the time.
Or just get a tap card lol
Nobody cares about you green bubbles
Android has had native NFC for over 10 years. It took so long and yet there's still no proper integration.
Exactly. Convenient or not, criminals aren't going to pay the fare either way. That's why the credit card system of paying for rides directly with your card is such a godsend and helpful
I don't ride the Metro often (I live in OC) but I took the C Line from Aviation to Norwalk last week. After trying to pay with card at the machine (nope), downloading the app (wasn't accepting credit card payments at the time) and having only $2 in my wallet instead of $3.75 I just said fuck it and hopped the turnstile to make the train. It just seems super dated as a system and deterred me, someone who supports public transit wholeheartedly, from paying.
Ummmmm TAP cards??
One of the problems is drivers don’t want to enforce them as they may be attacked - which is sadly a real risk nowadays.
Who is doing the enforcing? My dad used to drive for Metro. When he tried to enforce fares, he’d get threatened, berated, and sometimes assaulted by the passenger. Sure he had a button he could press to call the police, but that entailed him having to sit there at his own risk until the police showed up to deal with the situation, which put him (and the other passengers) at risk. I don’t blame him for choosing not to deal with that and instead just let people through.
I drive for Metro currently, we don’t enforce. Fares. It’s in your driver rule book to not enforce fares. It’s in our rules to not even quote the fare unless the pa announcer thing is broken or if someone asks.
>Who is doing the enforcing? The gates. * [Are BART's new 7-foot fare gates working to deter evaders? Here's what agency says ](https://abc7news.com/bart-new-fare-gates-evasion-west-oakland-station-bay-area-public-transportation/14301931/) And then Metro police to mop up the ones who squeak through. But the gates need to be the primary point of defense. It's why castles had walls. Castles also needed defensive troops, but the walls meant you needed a lot fewer defenders to achieve the same results.
We need actual police patrols and officers who work the system. Not LAPD and sheriffs sitting in cars out front on their phones. It’s plain to see
Motorcoach operators and a transit operators are the ones who bear the brunt of these issues the most. Word up to your father for doing a great service for the county. It is so challenging because many people do not want to stand up to an insane person who is unhinged… And then there are also people who will take the side of saying that everybody should be on the METRO for free… But those are people who likely have never had to sit next to someone who is deranged and soaked in urine.
This is right, standing up would be largely thankless, potentially welcome backlash from the public, and likely put you in peril with someone unhinged
This is understandable on the bus. I've seen those POS cause a whole scene and refuse to leave even if the bus driver tries to kick them out. For the trains, it's much easier. They used to do random checks at exits and all you'd have to do is tap your card on the device they were holding.
This wouldn't work as well for busses, but for train stations you can have automated enforcement - aka hard to bypass fare gates.
In Stockholm if they see a person is drunk theyre not allowed to ride the subway
But...but...but that sounds dystopian. The leftists in America always tell us the Scandinavian countries are much more lenient on sanctioning criminals and public order offenders, or subjecting them to controls.
DC has a great system where you tap your card at the entrance gate before you board the train and tap your card again at the exit gate after arriving at your stop. There's a security guard booth at these entrance/exit gates to deal with turnstile jumpers. I was honestly amazed by how much more I liked their system compared to LA. You are correct that this is much worse for bus drivers and there's no real good answer for that aside from increasing patrols on bus routes.
The reason they have it like that though is because they charge by distance.
Tokyo does the same thing. I think it’s a good system. More than any other city, I was really amazed at how well they did public transportation.
Japan also has a completely different culture where honor is wildly important and Japan itself is basically an ethnostate. Everyone buys in for better or worse.
Tokyo and Washington, DC have the most efficiently run Metros I've ever been on, and I've ridden them all across the globe. We can learn a lot from them, if the powers that be here took a look.
15 year metro driver. Can confirm.
Yeah see, unless this person is a danger, they’re not supposed to be pulling over a bus and making a huge ordeal over it. Per Metro. If you wanna harass people for fare (aka DEMANDING after the passenger asks for a ride), what do you expect people who are trying to get to their destination to do? Some routes in LA require four wheels. Can’t be putting peoples lives in danger by leaving them stranded, sorry.
I haven't taken the metro since before the pandemic so I don't know what it's like today but there used to be patrols to check people's tap cards and make sure they had paid. I think that may have been LASD deputies. I would not be surprised if things have gone downhill since then, though.
This is exactly it, who is going to enforce it? Surely the drivers shouldn’t be asked to
Are you going to write a ticket for someone who can't afford $1.75? People complain about spending too much money on police and deputies with no safety improvement. They got rid of jaywalking tickets because they found out that police only ticketed minority people.
People who can’t afford metro qualify for its special low income program. They are not the issue
LIFE only gives you 20 or so free rides a month, one way, including transfers. So that only helps you for 10 days a month.
Yea, assuming 5 days a week, or 20 working days/month, that’s a 50% discount. Or $35/month. Extraordinarily cheap and affordable to anyone working minimum wage
And if you don’t work, why would you need that many rides?
Who says people on LIFE don’t work?
Again, that's enough rides to get to work.
First of all, it’s not. Two rides a day, on each to work and back. That’s enough for 10 days. Most people work at least 20 days a month. Secondly, people have to shop or go meet friends or go to the doctor, etc… What do you care? Are poor people supposed to just sit at home and wait to die?
Yes. Because there are other ways to be able to pay a fare or get a pass if one is low income. Besides, LA Metro is the cheapest fair in the entire country by far.
People don't skip paying fares because they can't afford it, they do it because they don't want to pay it and there is basically no method of enforcing payment.
Metro's $1.75 is one of the CHEAPEST in the country, and there's also special programs for very low income folks (I'm talking double-digit free rides and fare capping). If you can't afford it beyond that, than unfortunately that's your problem.
Enforce fares is what causes problems aswell
METRO just needs to go take a look at how Deutsch Bahn and the local agencies keep things in check. I had a conductor slap my feet with a clipboard to get them off of the seat. Also had a conductor stand next to me as we approached the next station as I tried to play cute and say I thought my student zone pass was OK for this area… He probably escorted me off at a station to buy a ticket for the next train in an hour that was surrounded wheatfields 12 miles from my destination. I didn’t play cute again.
lol. Comparing people in LA to the people of the Netherlands is a little apples and oranges, isn’t it?
They were comparing fare enforcement here to how other metro systems do it??
You think people in The Netherlands have anywhere near the psychotic tendencies and hoboness or the same general proclivities towards altercations as Americans?
I've no idea how the people in The Netherlands are.
[удалено]
Netherlands…?
I misread that. lol. I read it as Dutch. Hahaha
Deutsche Bahn is German, not Dutch
Yeah. I misread Deutsch as Dutch. Point still stands the same.
Wrong country Copernicus
Lol DB is notoriously bad, nothing to look up to. Sad how far it's fallen.
Still miles ahead of LA IME
When I lived in Germany I took DB and regional train systems extensively and had very few problems. It's leaps and bounds better than the LA Metro, nowhere even close.
Still a weird comparison. The equivalent of DB is Amtrak, which definitely doesn’t have a fare evasion problem.
Having officers with dogs also tends to focus the mind
> I had a conductor slap my feet with a clipboard to get them off of the seat. That would get you stabbed so quickly in LA.
Yeah, potentially unfortunately… Dudes got soft egos here It’s all about “societies eye“. Like in Germany, there are plenty of recently arrived migrants from war torn countries and countries of extreme poverty in the Middle East and in Africa… but somehow, people don’t get hit by streetcars, don’t steal bicycles, and mostly not fare evade.
Metro knows. This is their June presentation: https://x.com/numble/status/1807891252999843883
Quick Summary: * They know 94% of crimes are committed by riders who don't have TAP cards, but the percentage of crime that is committed by fare evaders might be even higher since they don't check whether arrestees with TAP cards actually swiped them or have money on them. * There's no way to determine what percentage of fare evaders end up committing crimes * The current gates are easy to evade; peer agencies are installing more secure gates to avoid fare evasion, which we could do also. * Enhancements like more lights, blocking off areas that are of no use to riders, and upgraded CCTV are being tested. * At the North Hollywood station they're actively deploying employees to teach people how to sign up for TAP cards and educating people on how to use them, and they will study the effects for the next 90 days. * A list of potential safety enhancements are given, along with the current penalties for crimes against transportation workers in California.
>94% of crimes are committed by riders who don't have TAP cards, These are facts that need to be placed into Instagram posts and Facebook posts and uploaded everywhere and made viral until we have fare enforcement.
[This is the type of argument you’re going to be up against when you say stuff like that.](https://lbpost.com/news/black-riders-metro-bus-racial-profiling-long-beach/)
Man I hate the idea of more fare enforcement on principle, but if those numbers are even close to accurate then I can't argue against it. I look at NYC and how they arrest turnstile jumpers all the time, and spend thousands of dollars of taxpayer resources to arrest someone over a $2 fare evasion, and it makes my blood boil lmao they could just...make it free. But if people are out here getting killed and it could be prevented by that? Then yeah, worth it. I'm a little skeptical that cops would prevent anything violent though.
In NYC when they arrested fare evaders they went years without a single murder on the subway. Then they stopped enforcement and now there are subway murders. Seems like a good use of money.
> Man I hate the idea of more fare enforcement on principle Why?!
> At the North Hollywood station they're actively deploying employees to teach people how to sign up for TAP cards and educating people on how to use them, and they will study the effects for the next 90 days. This ought to go a long way, hopefully. I know a lot of these guys are illegally entering the Metro network and committing violent crimes because nobody showed them how to sign up for a TAP card.
[I'm picking up your sarcasm.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mSd5t2n3ck)
96% of violent crime offenders didn't have a tap card holy shit. and whats crazy is they talk about spending money buying fare gates and no mention in those slides at least about how zero emergency exits aren't alarmed and people just walk through those all day. even if you had all that buttoned up people will just like hop the fence or walk along the track on the ground level light rail stations at least.
I’m more surprised that 4% of people committing violent crimes did have a tap card. If you’re the violent type, why draw the line at paying for the train?
Maybe the 4% were more crimes of opportunity? Or more reactionary?
plenty of people are stupid enough to argue with strangers and get into fights as grown adults
Some people have anger issues but are otherwise honest.
I can be a major Debbie Downer at times...
They had a card, they're not sure if they used it or if it even had money on it.
They probably didn’t get on the train with the intention of committing violence
When you apply for GR they give you a free bus pass.
I agree. So weird it's not policed. They can spend billions to make the metro, then fail so hard in running it.
Flashy things like announcing new trains is what gets them re-elected. Day to day maintenance and operations, unfortunately, does not.
Ok well I can't wait for the new trains!!
I mean some subway stations in NY literally can't be entered without proper fare due to the large gates blocking the way
And I actually got onto the Chinatown platform having NO IDEA I missed the Tap station. 2 escalators up I started looking around and had no idea I walked right by it.
stop expecting uniformed cops to do anything about it
They stand around away from the actual train and passengers 🤦♀️
i have only ever seen them at the street level or parked in a red zone in their cars scrolling instagram.
In San Diego they have officers in the metro and buses checking for fares and they remove passengers without fares.
It's still super easy to get on the SD trolley without tapping. There were a ton of people on the trolley that did not tap last time I took it and there wasn't anyone checking at all.
They don’t enforce fares because out of all the money Metro receives, paid fares account for 1%.
The fewer people who use Metro, the fewer people who are going to want to pay for Metro. All that tax money isn't endless.
What kind of idiotic commentary is this. Subsidies from the city won’t last forever. The metro needs to be sustainable on its own
The metro will never be self-funded. It was never meant to be. Public transportation, public funding. Subsidies got it built and keep it going. It's a necessary cost to the city.
That’s cute. Tokyos public transit is profitable. Mayor Tom Bradley almost made public transit in LA profitable until the Red Car network failed (for unrelated reasons). Profitability is the only way to sustain a public transit system AND keep it clean, reliable and usable by locals. All this city needed to do was build a station at the airport and Dodgers Stadium and the whole system would’ve paid for itself.
Maybe they can increase it if... ya know... they enforce the fares.
Taxpayer funded means the public has a RIGHT to ride. Fare or not.
Yay now all the criminals can ride the metro! (Fun fact, I bet most of them don't pay taxes) So now you're punishing ACTUAL working tax-paying citizens, nobody wins
All you downvote 🤡s know there is a bus riders union?
Should metro check criminal records before boarding?
Police stations are taxpayer funded. Try to assert your RIGHT to be in there and see where that gets you. Our Metro system, despite all its faults, is rad, and should be respected. It's a priveledge to ride it, not a right. You have two legs, if you decide to forgo your priveleges to the sytem by disrespecting it or damaging it, nothing is stoppping you from walking to your destination.
I drove for metro for 15 years. 12 in south LA and 3 in the valley. Literally ANYONE can walk on the bus. Do you expect operators to risk their life for $2?
Then what’s your solution to the increase in crime?
If the past 3 or 4 CEOs, the Sheriffs department and LAPD haven’t figured it out yet, do you expect me to tell you for free?
It costs more to enforce fares than they make on fares. Abolish fares.
No it does not. You can use passive enforcement, like actual fare gates, at extremely low cost like NYC.
Oh you are right, they only make 25 cents per dollar. And then Spend 75 cents to enforce fair evasion. And that is only going to go up when they have their own police force.
this fare enforcement nonsense is being pushed by a few astroturfers. Its been a concentrated effort and its kind of comical to watch the fare enforcement theater going on and seeing Metro’s service everywhere else begin to suffer. Just wanting to steal Metro’s money and line their law enforcement pockets. Same song and dance.
2019 was a good time for Metro to put in proper fare gates for the Blue Line. All that time just for marginal improvements. But hey we got some new signage!!
I've notice a lot more LEO activity both Metro and LAPD at the stations, but a lot of it is inconsistent with 15+ guys at one station and then 0 at another. They all seem to vanish at non-rush hour times. I also see an obvious homeless just turn around and nope back onto the train when heading toward the gates when they see they are going to run into enforcement.
an 'omeless
Metro needs to make it absolutely near impossible to get in/out the gates without fare.
I've lived in Europe, East Asia, SF, and now LA (and visited NY many times). I've taken the metro in all those places and this is my opinion to make LA metro safer: 1. Enforce fares at the entrance, exit, AND inside the train. In NY you can't even enter without paying and the exits are blocked off with huge metal cages where you can only go one way. NY is more population dense yet there's less incidents than LA. Same with Europe - there's metro staff that check your tap card at random times with their tap technology. You get caught without tapping in, you get kicked off and face a fine. If people are worried this will negatively affect low income households, then provide a program that will subsidize low income household fares. 2. Put emergency call buttons (or alternatives). In Asia, they have emergency call buttons in every section of the train. If weirdos abuse the button, then instead put/advertise a number in every place, where you can text discreetly while pretending to use your phone to a central metro phone line. The operator can send units to that part of the train. 3. Also in Asia, there are cameras in every train so responders can see incidents in real time. It's a public area so everyone should expect to be on camera, for safety. People film others in public all the time anyways.
Been screaming this from the rooftops for months! Thank you!!
One idea I had was give people a heads up ahead of time, that way the honest people who legitimately can't afford fares can apply for the LIFE program.
Metro has been promoting their free and reduced fare programs for years. At this point if you're applying for it, it's on you. Instal real faregates on all rail stops starting with subways and enforce fares!
You'd be surprised at how many people don't know about it. They should also work to advertise it more too.
I’ve been saying this for years.
Nah we just need LAPD to get outta the way and let real enforcement take over
Have a guard/guards with batons or another physical assault weapon standing at the turnstiles to enforce fare. The only issue is people that complain when someone jumps and is beaten rightfully. Like - they had it coming.
Yeah and they need to be present either on the train or at ALL stations, not just the nicer ones; or hiding behind the first set of stairs staring at their phone like I've seen countless times.
Yup. I agree!
Chinatown Metro train is wide open. Bums just chilling along stairs and getting free rides. Zero enforcement.
More fake news. Every day, Reddit users say how safe and clean the metro is.
This is what Phoenix Valley Metro does...they have security on trains. Your tickets get checked, people are there. Felt safe. Lots of different types of people that would make me question getting on-board otherwise. Maybe it is time to learn from our neighboring states. [https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/pages/downloads/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/2400358601-23-transit-security-fact-sheets\_english-v1\_ada\_sb.pdf](https://vulcan-production.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/pages/downloads/about/agency/fact-sheets-brochures/fact-sheets/2400358601-23-transit-security-fact-sheets_english-v1_ada_sb.pdf)
100% fare enforcement or free tap cards for people experiencing financial hardship. But no one gets on without a card. The majority of the people causing trouble on the metro would be too drugged up to figure out how to apply for the free card.
Fare enforcement disproportionately impacts certain groups so it is racist, ableist, classist and misogynistic.
I'm other countries you cannot get past the gate unless you pay a valid fare. Why can't we do this?
They just need a gate like every good metro system in the world. The fact you can just walk up to the train and get on without even hopping a turnstile is crazy.
The astroturfers are on this sub pushing this nonsense now lol.
Enforcing fares doesnt make any sense. Just have security moniter each stop
Enforcing fares isn't just about preventing crime—it's about creating a fair and safe Metro for everyone. Let's make sure everyone pays their fair share to keep our transit system running smoothly.
Metro needs to take fare evasion seriously it's always the shit heads that don't pay up and everyone else has to suffer. Whether it's music blasting or tagging or just all around tomfoolery. When I see someone with no ticket they make up some lame excuse and enforcement tells them to have one next time. Saw a bus the other day that had the marquee say the line number then next it said "have fair ready?" I'm sure it was a typo or glitch but it feels like that's the rules for riding metro.
I just spent a week in Chicago without a car, rode the blue, red, and green L trains and the Metra everywhere I needed to go, and never felt unsafe even late at night. And the train cars were mostly clean. I will say that the elevators in the downtown train stations smelled like a ballpark trough urinal that went unflushed for a whole summer. Still, it’s way easier to hold my breath for a 30-second elevator ride than for a 30-minute subway ride.
This is a random repost. I remember seeing this months ago and thinking it's dumb because the answer to safety isn't that simple... Never has been.
5 years ago I was traveling in Amsterdam. I had purchased an AYCE transit pass that lasted 3 days or so. This tram pulls up at the train station. Signs indicate that one should load into the rear car. I step in. There is an employee sitting at a customer service desk on the train! If you can't tag on then you need to figure out how to settle up ASAP ! [pic1](https://www.eurogunzel.com/2021/09/amsterdam-tram-customer-service-counter/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/a3xkbo/trams\_in\_amsterdam\_have\_a\_service\_agent\_that\_sits/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/a3xkbo/trams_in_amsterdam_have_a_service_agent_that_sits/)