"Hey client, sorry, but today was my last day. "Big Boss" fired me"
client: "Hi Big Boss, client here. Please cancel our contract per directly - as you effectively gutted the support line. kthkbay"
I doubt the big boss will risk it - if they are reasonably intelligent.
Seriously doubt one call center employee would cause a client to cancel their contract. Also doubt OP would have the opportunity to send this email bc when you’re fired, you’re generally marched out on the spot. Also doubt big boss would even do the firing himself; most companies have HR reps for that.
Not that this isn’t solid MC, but big boss can make decent arguments as to why what you did was unprofessional and damaged the account.
one call center employee? No.
But, if they already were on thin ice, and the person being let go was the only one holding it together?
I know a former employer did lose a major contract due to the "cultural differences" between an European understanding of 'urgent' and that of the call center in India..
I'm honestly not worried about him. I have contacted HR and he is technically no longer in my chain of command, and cannot fire me. He is in charge of all of our lines of business in making sure they meet metrics. He also no longer receives my performance reviews.
If he tries anything, I have been instructed to immediately call our head of HR.
Honestly a good point to bring up to the corporate rep. "I spend quite a bit of time dealing Big Boss's consistent interference and hamhanded attempts to build a case to get me fired. He is gunning for me constantly and it is wearying . I really enjoy the job and my boss but this is .....not tenable."
I've seen this happen. They make the company money, but are terrible at management and get moved around to "limit" the damage they can do.
They still end up driving good, valuable people away because of their BS.
Big corporate structures, pinch every penny from the best workers while idiots waste product and parts trying to solve problems they don't comprehend, I've often thrown out 200k worth of product on a shift because of operator or software errors, never an eye batted, looks for a little raise here and there to match responsibilities and you'd swear I was taking the money out of managements pockets
You probably *are* taking money from their pockets, different money buckets and all that. (Tossed product is the manufacturing bucket, pay is the management budget, and managers get bonuses for keeping the later down while the former affects them little to none at all.) If someone is in a position to care for the overall bottom line, they likely came from management (our employees are leeches!) and not manufacturing (it's all mumbo jumbo, so I'm not going to mess with it). Ah, corporate America.
I'm literally lining their pockets, but yeah the business unit managers cripple as much raises and bonuses as possible to penny pinch, fortunately I believe in karma, so either way you're paying 😁
I've had the reverse. Manager came from managing a manufacturing line, to our Tech Support Group.
They could not grasp the concept of supporting senior IT folks at our customer's sites. That it took time for figure out issues and creativity to solve the issues.
"You are not creators, just tech support."
I'm currently working for an insanely profitable privately owned company, it's been interesting watching management erode all employee goodwill to save money. Buy hey, Walmart makes a shitload of money and treats everyone like shit and it hasn't hurt their bottom line at all. And in their world, if you're making money, you're doing the right thing.
That’s what happens when accountants make operational decisions. They ruin operations and ruin the brand by trying to save a few dollars.
Boeing did this a few years ago by firing experienced American software developers and offshoring to $9 per hour low skilled Indian teams. They saved a couple $million. But two of the new 737 Max planes crashed due to software flaws and all those planes were grounded for months. Cost them several $billion.
Exactly. My company's CEO was really toxic, like OP's big boss. A couple months ago, our CFO flew back to MN in the middle of his family vacation in Japan, just to walk her out the door. That was a great day for everyone else in the company.
The best part is our head engineer, who really knows his stuff, took her place. His first month running things, our receivables literally quadrupled from her last month. 🤣
No kidding. I've read several such stories on here where the guy quit the bad company and got hired to do the parallel role for the company that contracted them. All of that inside dirt on their dodgy practices was gold. They couldn't hide anything from the good company or sweep anything under the rug.
Big Boss already is gunning for OP due to trying to throw them under the bus in front of the client, trying to block OP’s raise and interfere and change things when corporate has already said they’re doing well and always have. BB doesn’t realize they are quite likely setting themselves up to be fired and having OP move up the ladder because of it.
You are taking money out of Big Boss's bonus checks, and that's why he's trying to kill your overtime. But I'm guessing that the client knows this too, and will make sure Big Boss doesn't get it one way it another after how badly he screwed things up...
Why does big boss even have a KPI relating to overtime? I think it's because it infuriates managers that the peons under them can make a higher hourly wage than they do, even if only for a few hours a week. Companies that will happily spend tens of thousands on all kinds of bullshit will balk at $150 in overtime: it's the principle of the thing. And the principle is "fuck you, peasant."
I bet it's that big boss has a kpi related to profit, and big boss's big brain knows that if you spend less, then profit increases, and if you pay less overtime, you must be spending less.
Sometimes, the KPIs really are specific, and they're assigned by people even further from the front lines than Big Boss is. So Big Boss turns the dials he has access to, to get the specific numbers that the KPIs require, and total profit or efficiency be damned.
When you reward a specific metric, you can end up creating behaviors that weren’t intended. Like in this instances, BB is probably bonused against profit or maybe even some sort of overtime metric. Obviously profit is important to a company, makes sense to bonus off of it, but not if it ignores customer satisfaction. So if BB doesn’t have a metric in his bonus formula related to customer satisfaction, he’s going to do exactly what he did. Reduce hours, lower pay, deny raises, and in general be a nuisance to people trying to keep the customer happy.
Pay tied to metrics can be dangerous, people only have so many levers to pull.
I had a boss like this once. Didn’t really understand more than a few basic things, so had to ask questions about those things, set performance goals related to those things, etc. Just adds a needless layer of busywork on top of the real work.
My friend just very excitedly told me whoever their Big Boss was finally retired and now she gets to make the decisions without some old fart who doesn't understand modern day technology saying no to everything. Good leadership is so important.
You’re so close, just make the next connection. When management says “fuck you peasant”, or “hey great job making us record profits, while you worked yourself to the bone. Here’s some pizza”, or my personal favorite “were a family here, you don’t need a union” then it’s time to form a union.
Unions work when their members do
>Why does big boss even have a KPI relating to overtime?
A lot of time, it's because Wall Street demands big profit and noticeable growth forever, and your stock price will tank if you are merely steady-state profitable, and if you're already taking up your share of a saturated market, the only way to "grow" is to cut expenses (or play opex vs. capex games, which only works for so long).
Big boss should go big brain and just make his managers salaried employees. Offer a fair wage and then they can be there whenever they need to be without throwing off the budget, their wages are a set number. Problem solved.
Excellent job. F Big boss. And major kudos and corporate for supporting you.
It's bad enough when big boss makes a stupid demand but full assholery to then try and deny it.
Well played, but you need to get out of there ASAP.
Big Boss will knife you first chance he gets. You need to leave before that and feel free to say he and he alone is the reason you are leaving.
The going rate for your (and almost any) job is increasing far faster than internal raises. If you look around, you will likely find yourself a pay increase at a new company.
I'm serious. Get out of there before Big Boss figures out how to get you and he will get you eventually.
If you're not getting a 3% raise on average every year, the company is playing you for a dunce and not even keeping up with year over year inflation numbers.
Yep. I was a job hopper my whole career and that's how I got most of my "raises". I found that two years was a good timespan between job hunts. I'd work for a year or two, learn everything I could, and then poke my head up and see what the going rate was.
Towards the end of my career, I hit the upper limit of my trade and wages sort of hit a plateau so I stayed at my last few jobs much longer. Most employers, at least employers that you want to work for, don't really expect people to last much more than that. Or at least the hiring manager doesn't expect to be there that long themselves.
Yeah, job hopping is great. Hell, one day I got pissed off, pulled my truck into the shop at lunch, and loaded my toolbox in it. Then I parked it again, went back in, and sat down to read. I was making $1.50 more withing ten minutes of lunch break being over, and when they came out to ask me into a meeting in the breakroom I was pulling my welding sleeves up and putting my gloves on to get back to work...
> Big Boss began denying it, when my boss stepped in,
File an HR complaint ASAP. Lying in front of a customer is a serious issue that you want on record.
> Since then Big Boss has continued to try to interfere and change how I run my line, however every time so far, the Corporate Rep has had my back.
That sounds like retaliation, which is illegal in many places, but probably isn't provable on its own.
Start building your case now with HR (and keep personal copies) so that when Big Boss finally crosses the line, you have something to protect yourself with.
I have gone to HR. As of a few weeks ago I was placed outside of his responsibilities and he has no control over my employment or my performance.
I now answer only to my direct boss, and the client.
For sure. No matter what kind of target this makes OP, big boss is probably a subject of discussion during executive meetings lately. Especially since their corporate rep is involved, reporting in this case can only be seen as aiding the inevitable.
If he were my employee, I would be legally obligated to tell him to go to HR. California doesn't mess around when it comes to claims of retaliation. So if I even suspect it, and ignore it, I could both lose my job and be open to civil liability.
I wish high schools would teach workers rights. If I knew a fraction of what I know now back in my 20s I would be much, much better off. The stolen overtime alone would have been life changing back then.
>File an HR complaint ASAP. Lying in front of a customer is a serious issue that you want on record.
I'm going straight to hell for thinking like this, but I read "lying" as "lying down," which makes the phrase read much differently. I choose to believe that OP's big boss was lying in front of the customer, making an animalistic... erm... *presentation.*
Worse, the rest of the sentence still makes with that reading. That *is* a serious issue that should be on record, and filing an HR complaint is absolutely the correct response to it.
there's a military version of this: "Can I have that order in writing, sir?'
Any officer/boss hearing those words should stop wtf they are doing and REALLY think about how things will end.
they never do.
The absolute millisecond big boss lied and said he didn't have that policy, I'd say, "Retract that, tell the truth or I quit. I will not work for somebody who cannot own up to their mistakes."
I’d be very careful to document everything. The big boss man could be setting you up for a fall. People like that don’t like being made to look bad in front of anybody.
I wasn't really big boss, but I was moderately big boss. At that level, you have people reporting up to you where you don't know how to do their job. In that circumstance, telling them how to do their job is going to turn out badly.
Why did you agree to work for 1 hour, take a 6-hour lunch, then work for one more hour? That's one hell of a split shift. And split shifts are the worst because they interfere with your day just as much as if you had actually worked all the intervening hours, but with the added bonus that you don't even get paid for all that time that you couldn't use the way you needed to. Depending on this country or state you live in, that could also be illegal.
I would have been inclined to say, "let me know which two hours I'm most likely to be needed during, and I will come in and work those two hours," but I'm not taking a 6-hour lunch from a 2-hour shift.
When you cause clients problems, and there’s literally proof of it not just cap from a disgruntled employee- Dementus is now on their radar and id gamble they are gonna replace him soon. Maybe even give you the job.
This is important- FROM EXPERIENCE-If he tells you something say “ok will do but I’ll need an email outlining this discussion should I need to reference your request wanna make sure I don’t miss anything or there’s a misunderstanding”
Forward those emails to a private account too.
Bc when he does dumb shit you’ll have proof he initiated whatever failed policy and you can simply send it all to the rep who will send it up the chain. I’ve got two big shots fired this way
As someone who has worked in customer service, the only way not to overstay in a chat or phone call is to close the lines earlier. In my last position taking phone calls, I closed the line 10 minutes early because I had to transfer to a department and they used to hung up on me to avoid OT. The client and customer may hate this, so tell big boss that it is the only way to ensure zero overtime.
Our contract stipulates an exact closing time, and we must answer all calls and chats that come in prior to that time, so if we close and there are chats or calls waiting, we have to answer them.
This conflict of interest among decision making folks is very apparent in many customer centric companies.
The health and profitability of the company is surprisingly not the foremost concern of these people. Short term gains and their bonuses and RSUs are.
This often means coming up with hare-brained cost cutting measures that often negatively impact long term growth and health of the company but certainly boost the company top line for the short term. It does not even help with the bottom line and net profit some times. But a lot of bonuses are linked to efficiency and cost cutting measures so it does not matter if the company did not make money or lost customers.
As long as these folks get their bonuses they don’t care what happens to the company.
They really don’t have leadership capabilities necessary to hold the position they have. They are just greedy people who care only for themselves and move on.
I’m all for the malicious compliance, but like…you need to document your knowledge and save it somewhere that is easily accessible so you don’t have to be doing this stuff. That’s what management is. You aren’t paid for what you can do, you’re paid for what you know.
I have created several hundred pages of training manuals that range from concept level to incredibly depth for my team. They don't have to just go through me. The products we support are by far some of the most complicated consumer devices on the market, and are used with systems that can vary from simple to very complex. Even with access to all that information a new agent can still take a long time to become proficient, longer than most people spend at a call center. I have some excellent team members who almost never need my assistance, but it takes a long time to get there.
Well IMO that training material should be put into the hands of your installers and also used alongside a significant tech investment to automatically guide your agents through troubleshooting steps.
I’m also completely stumped as to what consumer product could possibly be so complex AND in such high demand that you and your team are overloaded with cases. These two things make me think the product(s) is (are) affordable…but I literally can’t think of anything that checks those boxes.
I’m not being accusatory here, just chit chatting.
A few things:
1) I do not work for the company that makes the products. I work for a call center with a contract with that company. I don't make any calls on what training installers get, but I can say that they have access to everything I have access to information wise, and we will gladly send any information they are not able to find.
2) Without getting too far into it. There are levels of complexity here. The products I work with are made to be integrated with a system of other products from other manufacturers. This can be as few as 1 other devices, or as many as 50+. They are able to be controlled via IP by 3rd party control systems.
3) You have probably seen some of our cheaper products in your local big box electronics store. They are unassuming, and the cheaper ones are generally less complex and much easier to work with.
4) Our Call Center is small. I work with a main team of just a handful of agents on the chat team. This isn't a call center where we have 50+ heads in at any given time. The staffing we normally have is generally enough to cover most of the year, except a few weeks around the holidays when our metrics take a dip. The week I mentioned was probably the craziest week I have ever had working here.
Corporate knows Big Boss shenanigans, yet this Big Boss is still there. That's the concerning part.
Sooner or later, Big Boss will find something to sabotage yours & your boss's position. Even if the Big Boss has to fabricate it.
The Client has no control over our employment except with agents on the lines due to conduct. They cannot get rid of him without pulling the nuclear option (we want him gone, or we are cutting your contract). He works for the company I work for, not the corporate rep of the client whom I work with.
Why don't they just make you a salaried employee? Just wondering. I understand the agents being hourly but they could just give you salary and incentive. It might suck for you but they wouldn't have to worry about overtime for you and it would make you prioritize limiting overtime for the staff because you'd want to get out of there.
Otherwise, good job handling the situation. I know how much of a pain it is to have big responsibilities but not allowed overtime. TBH it is sort of better to just be salaried. You end up having to work a little more but it is less of a hassle and you can have more flexibility when it is slow. Considering your experience, I'd rather just have a bonus or incentive and put more time and effort into reaching the goals because it sounds like you would blow them out of the water as long as they are reasonable.
Because of my seniority, I make more money hourly than I would salary before overtime. Dumb but they have different pay scales for hourly and salary, and I would be taking a decent pay cut.
I could probably negotiate, but I get full benefits, and the same PTO as our salary employees, plus paid OT (which really does not do much for me, but it's beer money for a Friday night out).
1. The author doesn't make enough money to qualify as exempt. For example, in California IT workers need to make at least 115K to be exempt.
2. The author refuses to accept a salary.
3. The author is on salary, and exempt, but logged hours still count against the profitability of the contract. <-- that's where I'm at
4. Overtime hours are billed to the client and the boss is worried that will make him look bad. <-- I've been there too
5. HR tracks overtime hours and it affects the bosses bonus. This can happen by itself or in conjunction with another reason.
> Why don't they just make you a salaried employee?
Why would OP *want* to be salaried? Salary employees they can just abuse as much as they like. 100 hour work weeks? Sure, they're salary!
Hell to the naw.
I've had bosses that have an ABSOLUTELY NO OVERTIME policy, and others that have the same, but it's no AVOIDABLE overtime. If you get a last minute customer on Friday afternoon, there's no way to burn the few minutes of OT.
Yeah, you rack up a few minutes past 8 hours each day, try your best to burn those off without violating the contract. If you end up with a little bit of OT at the end of the week, oh well. It's the cost of business. Is the customer happy? If yes, no big deal.
You know you have a big target on your back so time to make an exit plan. Be sure to mention on the side to corporate rep about how BB tried to block your raise and the you are job hunting because of it. Ask if they have anything open you might be qualified for.
Were your relationships with your team strained by this MC?
In similar situations, so long as I'm getting paid for my hours, and no one is yelling at me until I cry, I've been able to see that "this problem I'm dealing with isn't caused by someone taking their break, it's a symptom of resource issues for that expertise".
But when the pressure on me is increased, resentment does start to creep in even if I objectively agree with the slow-down.
No, there are 2 other people in similar positions that handle the 2 specific brands of the products we manufacture. They were there when I was gone, and my team already sometimes works when I am not present. Are they as good as me? Well I'm not gonna say they're not, but there is a reason I'm on the joint brand installer line.
The one week I was not helping with the close, and the extra lunch time I had to take was no different then when I go on vacation (I usually go on at least 2 week long vacations a year, if not more). I let them know when I'll be out and who to bring any questions or calls for assistance to.
I support my equals on their LOBs as well when they are gone.
If Big Boss keeps pushing it maybe you should be the onsite manager hired for client and client renegotiated the cost of the contract due to Big Boss requiring them to alter their active position to ensure their standards are met.
He's still telling himself he can interfere with you somehow?
That Big Bitch is the most spineless wimp at that entire company, sounds like. Can't a loser just learn when he's drowning in L's, and take one before they kill him? Because he's just making it worse and worse for himself repeatedly trying and failing to get you, and he's going to wind up destroying his whole career.
You go right ahead, Big Bitch. Pretend you still have authority. Pull out all the Jenga blocks and watch your entire facade and position crash.
OP's company is a service provider, so their client can dictate the terms of service since they are paying, especially if OP's company is billing the labor hours to the client and/or the client's business is a huge chunk of the company's revenue.
I wonder how they'll feel about Bad Boss when you inevitably leave because he has it out for you.
Be sure to specify why you're leaving.
I'm sure they'll love him after.
>Big Boss began denying it, when my boss stepped in, and was like, wait, I got an email about this. He pulls up the email Big Boss sent, and shares it on screen in the meeting.
>Client is pissed, and the Corporate Rep begins ripping Big Boss a new one on the phone. After Ripping into Big Boss, the Corp Rep speaks to me, telling me to accrue as many hours as needed to make sure my job is done, and that if my company wants to retain this line of business, Big Boss is not to interfere with my generally very successful management without consulting them and myself.
>Since then Big Boss has continued to try to interfere and change how I run my line, however every time so far, the Corporate Rep has had my back. They are extremely happy with my work, and know I do a great job. Heck, they even pushed through a large raise for me when Big Boss was blocking my Boss's attempts to get me more money.
This must be America. How on Earth was BB not under close examination after such a massive screw-up (combined with their own denial of fault)?
Why do redditors put tldrs at the END of posts? tldr = too long, don't read... in other words if you don't want to read the long story (which in this case was delightful; well done) then just read the tldr and move on.
If you're just gonna put it at the bottom, then call it a "re-cap", please. LOL
[TL;DR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL;DR) (Wikipedia)
Because tldr is actually "Too long, *didn't* read", even on the Wikipedia link you just posted. It's in past tense, referring to the text you have just skipped. It tends to assume that someone has started to read, then given up due to the length. When they then scroll to the bottom, there's a tldr waiting for them.
It also prevents people from mistakenly reading the tldr before the main story, which would ruin the pacing.
You need to look at getting a job at Corporate Place unless they get Big Boss fired. Big Boss will be gunning for you....best of luck
Big Boss will probably be gunning for both OP and his boss now.
"Hey client, sorry, but today was my last day. "Big Boss" fired me" client: "Hi Big Boss, client here. Please cancel our contract per directly - as you effectively gutted the support line. kthkbay" I doubt the big boss will risk it - if they are reasonably intelligent.
From someone in the corporate world wild assumption that someone won’t put ego above their job
A lot hang their ego on their job - you\`d think/hope/dream...
Yeah some people’s personality is their job and I pity them life is meant to be lived!
> if they are reasonably intelligent That "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there...
I know.. and i wonder if i should have used "if" or "intelligent" like this, instead of without the "" :)
> if they are reasonably intelligent. I think the story just posted shows that they aren't.
Your funny.
Their funny what?
> I doubt the big boss will risk it - if they are reasonably intelligent. Oh you sweet summer child.
Higher chance that client will instantly try to hire that guy. You can never have enough good managers
If One informs the largest client - then yes, good chance indeed.
*kthkbay* lmao that made me chuckle.
Reasonably, sometimes but bug boss can walk a fine line if keeping you there but sufficiently head wreaked
Seriously doubt one call center employee would cause a client to cancel their contract. Also doubt OP would have the opportunity to send this email bc when you’re fired, you’re generally marched out on the spot. Also doubt big boss would even do the firing himself; most companies have HR reps for that. Not that this isn’t solid MC, but big boss can make decent arguments as to why what you did was unprofessional and damaged the account.
one call center employee? No. But, if they already were on thin ice, and the person being let go was the only one holding it together? I know a former employer did lose a major contract due to the "cultural differences" between an European understanding of 'urgent' and that of the call center in India..
There’s no way one manager is the only one “holding it all together” and no way the client would view it that way.
Never know… sometimes bosses like to spit in their own faces.
I'm honestly not worried about him. I have contacted HR and he is technically no longer in my chain of command, and cannot fire me. He is in charge of all of our lines of business in making sure they meet metrics. He also no longer receives my performance reviews. If he tries anything, I have been instructed to immediately call our head of HR.
This is such a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing.
Awesome! I'm happy for you!
Corporate being aware of Big Boss shenanigans will prevent most damage, odds are BB is out first due to all this
> most damage When any job entails avoiding damage rather then helping the biz thrive, well.....
Honestly a good point to bring up to the corporate rep. "I spend quite a bit of time dealing Big Boss's consistent interference and hamhanded attempts to build a case to get me fired. He is gunning for me constantly and it is wearying . I really enjoy the job and my boss but this is .....not tenable."
Big boss is likely somebody's nephew
In that case they can shuffle him somewhere else as long as he's out of OP's hair
I've seen this happen. They make the company money, but are terrible at management and get moved around to "limit" the damage they can do. They still end up driving good, valuable people away because of their BS.
The “…not tenable.” ending is perfect. Fairly impressive how much that simple phrase can convey.
Big corporate structures, pinch every penny from the best workers while idiots waste product and parts trying to solve problems they don't comprehend, I've often thrown out 200k worth of product on a shift because of operator or software errors, never an eye batted, looks for a little raise here and there to match responsibilities and you'd swear I was taking the money out of managements pockets
You probably *are* taking money from their pockets, different money buckets and all that. (Tossed product is the manufacturing bucket, pay is the management budget, and managers get bonuses for keeping the later down while the former affects them little to none at all.) If someone is in a position to care for the overall bottom line, they likely came from management (our employees are leeches!) and not manufacturing (it's all mumbo jumbo, so I'm not going to mess with it). Ah, corporate America.
I'm literally lining their pockets, but yeah the business unit managers cripple as much raises and bonuses as possible to penny pinch, fortunately I believe in karma, so either way you're paying 😁
> fortunately I believe in karma Oh, sweet summer child.
I've had the reverse. Manager came from managing a manufacturing line, to our Tech Support Group. They could not grasp the concept of supporting senior IT folks at our customer's sites. That it took time for figure out issues and creativity to solve the issues. "You are not creators, just tech support."
I'm currently working for an insanely profitable privately owned company, it's been interesting watching management erode all employee goodwill to save money. Buy hey, Walmart makes a shitload of money and treats everyone like shit and it hasn't hurt their bottom line at all. And in their world, if you're making money, you're doing the right thing.
That’s what happens when accountants make operational decisions. They ruin operations and ruin the brand by trying to save a few dollars. Boeing did this a few years ago by firing experienced American software developers and offshoring to $9 per hour low skilled Indian teams. They saved a couple $million. But two of the new 737 Max planes crashed due to software flaws and all those planes were grounded for months. Cost them several $billion.
Exactly. My company's CEO was really toxic, like OP's big boss. A couple months ago, our CFO flew back to MN in the middle of his family vacation in Japan, just to walk her out the door. That was a great day for everyone else in the company.
For a moment there thought we worked at the same place, but as far as I know, no exec had been let go recently
The best part is our head engineer, who really knows his stuff, took her place. His first month running things, our receivables literally quadrupled from her last month. 🤣
With a Golden Parachute comp package.
[удалено]
No kidding. I've read several such stories on here where the guy quit the bad company and got hired to do the parallel role for the company that contracted them. All of that inside dirt on their dodgy practices was gold. They couldn't hide anything from the good company or sweep anything under the rug.
Big Boss already is gunning for OP due to trying to throw them under the bus in front of the client, trying to block OP’s raise and interfere and change things when corporate has already said they’re doing well and always have. BB doesn’t realize they are quite likely setting themselves up to be fired and having OP move up the ladder because of it.
It sounds like BB is family or networked, no firing expected.
I love how your boss busted out the email.I have receipts MF.
The corporate place is really putting themselves on the wrong side of co-employment law already.
Big boss already is.
With the client and corporate backing OP there ain’t much big boss can do to him
You are taking money out of Big Boss's bonus checks, and that's why he's trying to kill your overtime. But I'm guessing that the client knows this too, and will make sure Big Boss doesn't get it one way it another after how badly he screwed things up...
Why does big boss even have a KPI relating to overtime? I think it's because it infuriates managers that the peons under them can make a higher hourly wage than they do, even if only for a few hours a week. Companies that will happily spend tens of thousands on all kinds of bullshit will balk at $150 in overtime: it's the principle of the thing. And the principle is "fuck you, peasant."
I bet it's that big boss has a kpi related to profit, and big boss's big brain knows that if you spend less, then profit increases, and if you pay less overtime, you must be spending less.
Sometimes, the KPIs really are specific, and they're assigned by people even further from the front lines than Big Boss is. So Big Boss turns the dials he has access to, to get the specific numbers that the KPIs require, and total profit or efficiency be damned.
When you reward a specific metric, you can end up creating behaviors that weren’t intended. Like in this instances, BB is probably bonused against profit or maybe even some sort of overtime metric. Obviously profit is important to a company, makes sense to bonus off of it, but not if it ignores customer satisfaction. So if BB doesn’t have a metric in his bonus formula related to customer satisfaction, he’s going to do exactly what he did. Reduce hours, lower pay, deny raises, and in general be a nuisance to people trying to keep the customer happy. Pay tied to metrics can be dangerous, people only have so many levers to pull.
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I had a boss like this once. Didn’t really understand more than a few basic things, so had to ask questions about those things, set performance goals related to those things, etc. Just adds a needless layer of busywork on top of the real work.
My friend just very excitedly told me whoever their Big Boss was finally retired and now she gets to make the decisions without some old fart who doesn't understand modern day technology saying no to everything. Good leadership is so important.
Over time is a normal KPI. Accountants who don’t have ops experience make these decisions.
You’re so close, just make the next connection. When management says “fuck you peasant”, or “hey great job making us record profits, while you worked yourself to the bone. Here’s some pizza”, or my personal favorite “were a family here, you don’t need a union” then it’s time to form a union. Unions work when their members do
>Why does big boss even have a KPI relating to overtime? A lot of time, it's because Wall Street demands big profit and noticeable growth forever, and your stock price will tank if you are merely steady-state profitable, and if you're already taking up your share of a saturated market, the only way to "grow" is to cut expenses (or play opex vs. capex games, which only works for so long).
Big boss should go big brain and just make his managers salaried employees. Offer a fair wage and then they can be there whenever they need to be without throwing off the budget, their wages are a set number. Problem solved.
Followed all the rules, got it in writing and your boss backed you up to boot, awesome :)
Boss and client too
Handshakes and congratulations all around. Screw that one guy and his tomfoolery.
Excellent job. F Big boss. And major kudos and corporate for supporting you. It's bad enough when big boss makes a stupid demand but full assholery to then try and deny it.
Well played, but you need to get out of there ASAP. Big Boss will knife you first chance he gets. You need to leave before that and feel free to say he and he alone is the reason you are leaving. The going rate for your (and almost any) job is increasing far faster than internal raises. If you look around, you will likely find yourself a pay increase at a new company. I'm serious. Get out of there before Big Boss figures out how to get you and he will get you eventually.
If you're not getting a 3% raise on average every year, the company is playing you for a dunce and not even keeping up with year over year inflation numbers.
Yep. I was a job hopper my whole career and that's how I got most of my "raises". I found that two years was a good timespan between job hunts. I'd work for a year or two, learn everything I could, and then poke my head up and see what the going rate was. Towards the end of my career, I hit the upper limit of my trade and wages sort of hit a plateau so I stayed at my last few jobs much longer. Most employers, at least employers that you want to work for, don't really expect people to last much more than that. Or at least the hiring manager doesn't expect to be there that long themselves.
Yeah, job hopping is great. Hell, one day I got pissed off, pulled my truck into the shop at lunch, and loaded my toolbox in it. Then I parked it again, went back in, and sat down to read. I was making $1.50 more withing ten minutes of lunch break being over, and when they came out to ask me into a meeting in the breakroom I was pulling my welding sleeves up and putting my gloves on to get back to work...
> Big Boss began denying it, when my boss stepped in, File an HR complaint ASAP. Lying in front of a customer is a serious issue that you want on record. > Since then Big Boss has continued to try to interfere and change how I run my line, however every time so far, the Corporate Rep has had my back. That sounds like retaliation, which is illegal in many places, but probably isn't provable on its own. Start building your case now with HR (and keep personal copies) so that when Big Boss finally crosses the line, you have something to protect yourself with.
I have gone to HR. As of a few weeks ago I was placed outside of his responsibilities and he has no control over my employment or my performance. I now answer only to my direct boss, and the client.
Wonderful!
Congradulations!
Normally I would never advocate for involving HR but in OP's specific situation, a paper trail can only be helpful
Especially considering a major client stated *point blank* that Big Boss was close to losing the entire contract because of his bullshit.
For sure. No matter what kind of target this makes OP, big boss is probably a subject of discussion during executive meetings lately. Especially since their corporate rep is involved, reporting in this case can only be seen as aiding the inevitable.
It also has the added bonus of playing the ol' uno reverse card after Big Boss tried to throw OP under the bus.
If he were my employee, I would be legally obligated to tell him to go to HR. California doesn't mess around when it comes to claims of retaliation. So if I even suspect it, and ignore it, I could both lose my job and be open to civil liability. I wish high schools would teach workers rights. If I knew a fraction of what I know now back in my 20s I would be much, much better off. The stolen overtime alone would have been life changing back then.
>File an HR complaint ASAP. Lying in front of a customer is a serious issue that you want on record. I'm going straight to hell for thinking like this, but I read "lying" as "lying down," which makes the phrase read much differently. I choose to believe that OP's big boss was lying in front of the customer, making an animalistic... erm... *presentation.* Worse, the rest of the sentence still makes with that reading. That *is* a serious issue that should be on record, and filing an HR complaint is absolutely the correct response to it.
He could have just been taking a nap.
Screw that. I would have been like “nah, I’m enjoying getting out of here on time everyday. I’ll continue to not take ANY overtime”.
It’s always nice when management sees how smoothly everything is working and thinks to themselves, how can I fuck this up?
there's a military version of this: "Can I have that order in writing, sir?' Any officer/boss hearing those words should stop wtf they are doing and REALLY think about how things will end. they never do.
Big boss wants your neck. Watch out cuz he's a massive AH.
Good CYA. And good with someone to have your back.
Corp rep and client need to get big boss removed. He's the obvious problem.
The absolute millisecond big boss lied and said he didn't have that policy, I'd say, "Retract that, tell the truth or I quit. I will not work for somebody who cannot own up to their mistakes."
Good for you! Very glad to hear that your boss and the corporate rep have your back.
Dang, that's just perfect, and ended up great. Well done.
OP now walks around with a target on their back.
If he can't get OP, he will get OP's boss.
Sounds to me the underlying issue is not the overtime itself but the bus factor of 1. What happens if OP is on vacation?
I'm betting overtime hours negatively impact his bonus. And everyone knows, the Big Boss's bonus is the most important aspect of the business
I’d be very careful to document everything. The big boss man could be setting you up for a fall. People like that don’t like being made to look bad in front of anybody.
Upper manglement at its best.
I feel like I may be in the same company, as a field employee. Continue setting a good example as a Leader, and the rest will come naturally
I wasn't really big boss, but I was moderately big boss. At that level, you have people reporting up to you where you don't know how to do their job. In that circumstance, telling them how to do their job is going to turn out badly.
Watch your back….sounds like you have made an enemy
Why did you agree to work for 1 hour, take a 6-hour lunch, then work for one more hour? That's one hell of a split shift. And split shifts are the worst because they interfere with your day just as much as if you had actually worked all the intervening hours, but with the added bonus that you don't even get paid for all that time that you couldn't use the way you needed to. Depending on this country or state you live in, that could also be illegal. I would have been inclined to say, "let me know which two hours I'm most likely to be needed during, and I will come in and work those two hours," but I'm not taking a 6-hour lunch from a 2-hour shift.
Manglement again trying to justify their jobs and pay rather than list to worker.
Manglement trying to increase their bonus by cutting OT to the bone.
When you cause clients problems, and there’s literally proof of it not just cap from a disgruntled employee- Dementus is now on their radar and id gamble they are gonna replace him soon. Maybe even give you the job. This is important- FROM EXPERIENCE-If he tells you something say “ok will do but I’ll need an email outlining this discussion should I need to reference your request wanna make sure I don’t miss anything or there’s a misunderstanding” Forward those emails to a private account too. Bc when he does dumb shit you’ll have proof he initiated whatever failed policy and you can simply send it all to the rep who will send it up the chain. I’ve got two big shots fired this way
As someone who has worked in customer service, the only way not to overstay in a chat or phone call is to close the lines earlier. In my last position taking phone calls, I closed the line 10 minutes early because I had to transfer to a department and they used to hung up on me to avoid OT. The client and customer may hate this, so tell big boss that it is the only way to ensure zero overtime.
Our contract stipulates an exact closing time, and we must answer all calls and chats that come in prior to that time, so if we close and there are chats or calls waiting, we have to answer them.
Maybe stagger clock in, lunch, and clock out times, to cover calls that come in last minute.
Big Boss needs even more Special High Intensity Training.
Penny-pincher is going to lose a big client.
This conflict of interest among decision making folks is very apparent in many customer centric companies. The health and profitability of the company is surprisingly not the foremost concern of these people. Short term gains and their bonuses and RSUs are. This often means coming up with hare-brained cost cutting measures that often negatively impact long term growth and health of the company but certainly boost the company top line for the short term. It does not even help with the bottom line and net profit some times. But a lot of bonuses are linked to efficiency and cost cutting measures so it does not matter if the company did not make money or lost customers. As long as these folks get their bonuses they don’t care what happens to the company. They really don’t have leadership capabilities necessary to hold the position they have. They are just greedy people who care only for themselves and move on.
Big Boss needs to go stick his big head up his big ass
I’m all for the malicious compliance, but like…you need to document your knowledge and save it somewhere that is easily accessible so you don’t have to be doing this stuff. That’s what management is. You aren’t paid for what you can do, you’re paid for what you know.
I have created several hundred pages of training manuals that range from concept level to incredibly depth for my team. They don't have to just go through me. The products we support are by far some of the most complicated consumer devices on the market, and are used with systems that can vary from simple to very complex. Even with access to all that information a new agent can still take a long time to become proficient, longer than most people spend at a call center. I have some excellent team members who almost never need my assistance, but it takes a long time to get there.
Well IMO that training material should be put into the hands of your installers and also used alongside a significant tech investment to automatically guide your agents through troubleshooting steps. I’m also completely stumped as to what consumer product could possibly be so complex AND in such high demand that you and your team are overloaded with cases. These two things make me think the product(s) is (are) affordable…but I literally can’t think of anything that checks those boxes. I’m not being accusatory here, just chit chatting.
A few things: 1) I do not work for the company that makes the products. I work for a call center with a contract with that company. I don't make any calls on what training installers get, but I can say that they have access to everything I have access to information wise, and we will gladly send any information they are not able to find. 2) Without getting too far into it. There are levels of complexity here. The products I work with are made to be integrated with a system of other products from other manufacturers. This can be as few as 1 other devices, or as many as 50+. They are able to be controlled via IP by 3rd party control systems. 3) You have probably seen some of our cheaper products in your local big box electronics store. They are unassuming, and the cheaper ones are generally less complex and much easier to work with. 4) Our Call Center is small. I work with a main team of just a handful of agents on the chat team. This isn't a call center where we have 50+ heads in at any given time. The staffing we normally have is generally enough to cover most of the year, except a few weeks around the holidays when our metrics take a dip. The week I mentioned was probably the craziest week I have ever had working here.
Corporate knows Big Boss shenanigans, yet this Big Boss is still there. That's the concerning part. Sooner or later, Big Boss will find something to sabotage yours & your boss's position. Even if the Big Boss has to fabricate it.
The Client has no control over our employment except with agents on the lines due to conduct. They cannot get rid of him without pulling the nuclear option (we want him gone, or we are cutting your contract). He works for the company I work for, not the corporate rep of the client whom I work with.
Nah,I was meaning about the Big Boss, not the client.
Why don't they just make you a salaried employee? Just wondering. I understand the agents being hourly but they could just give you salary and incentive. It might suck for you but they wouldn't have to worry about overtime for you and it would make you prioritize limiting overtime for the staff because you'd want to get out of there. Otherwise, good job handling the situation. I know how much of a pain it is to have big responsibilities but not allowed overtime. TBH it is sort of better to just be salaried. You end up having to work a little more but it is less of a hassle and you can have more flexibility when it is slow. Considering your experience, I'd rather just have a bonus or incentive and put more time and effort into reaching the goals because it sounds like you would blow them out of the water as long as they are reasonable.
Because of my seniority, I make more money hourly than I would salary before overtime. Dumb but they have different pay scales for hourly and salary, and I would be taking a decent pay cut. I could probably negotiate, but I get full benefits, and the same PTO as our salary employees, plus paid OT (which really does not do much for me, but it's beer money for a Friday night out).
1. The author doesn't make enough money to qualify as exempt. For example, in California IT workers need to make at least 115K to be exempt. 2. The author refuses to accept a salary. 3. The author is on salary, and exempt, but logged hours still count against the profitability of the contract. <-- that's where I'm at 4. Overtime hours are billed to the client and the boss is worried that will make him look bad. <-- I've been there too 5. HR tracks overtime hours and it affects the bosses bonus. This can happen by itself or in conjunction with another reason.
> Why don't they just make you a salaried employee? Why would OP *want* to be salaried? Salary employees they can just abuse as much as they like. 100 hour work weeks? Sure, they're salary! Hell to the naw.
How do we get big boss fired?
Not. Get him hired somewhere else.
Remember this OP, when you are in a position to protect and positively impact your employees.... just pay it forward.
I've had bosses that have an ABSOLUTELY NO OVERTIME policy, and others that have the same, but it's no AVOIDABLE overtime. If you get a last minute customer on Friday afternoon, there's no way to burn the few minutes of OT. Yeah, you rack up a few minutes past 8 hours each day, try your best to burn those off without violating the contract. If you end up with a little bit of OT at the end of the week, oh well. It's the cost of business. Is the customer happy? If yes, no big deal.
Fire Big Boss.
Those overtime hours should have been calculated at Time and a Half if this is the US, if I'm not mistaken.
You know you have a big target on your back so time to make an exit plan. Be sure to mention on the side to corporate rep about how BB tried to block your raise and the you are job hunting because of it. Ask if they have anything open you might be qualified for.
Wonderful hr long story
Are you by chance based in Michigan?
reading these is cathartic as hell. Love to see it.
This is *beautiful*.
Were your relationships with your team strained by this MC? In similar situations, so long as I'm getting paid for my hours, and no one is yelling at me until I cry, I've been able to see that "this problem I'm dealing with isn't caused by someone taking their break, it's a symptom of resource issues for that expertise". But when the pressure on me is increased, resentment does start to creep in even if I objectively agree with the slow-down.
No, there are 2 other people in similar positions that handle the 2 specific brands of the products we manufacture. They were there when I was gone, and my team already sometimes works when I am not present. Are they as good as me? Well I'm not gonna say they're not, but there is a reason I'm on the joint brand installer line. The one week I was not helping with the close, and the extra lunch time I had to take was no different then when I go on vacation (I usually go on at least 2 week long vacations a year, if not more). I let them know when I'll be out and who to bring any questions or calls for assistance to. I support my equals on their LOBs as well when they are gone.
Thanks for sharing some of the bigger picture of how that expertise is spread across your workplace :)
I salute you OP, well done
Very nice. You run a good ship and work at a better callcenter than I did.
Sounds like corporate also wants him gone
You should be da big bada boss
Ah, middle manglement desperately trying to justify their existence.
It's always the Big Boss. I have the same experiences with every workplace.
I have this elaborate petty idea in my mind, of you going to night school just so you can get the credentials to take his job. But good job so far.
Do you or someone you know have anybody in the business network that can offer the big boss a new job?
If Big Boss keeps pushing it maybe you should be the onsite manager hired for client and client renegotiated the cost of the contract due to Big Boss requiring them to alter their active position to ensure their standards are met.
In CA I believe that what he had you doing to avoid OT is illegal. How about where you are? Back pay/fines owed?
The beatings will cuntinue until morale improves.
This is prime example why you document everything and make backups. Well done OP!
He's still telling himself he can interfere with you somehow? That Big Bitch is the most spineless wimp at that entire company, sounds like. Can't a loser just learn when he's drowning in L's, and take one before they kill him? Because he's just making it worse and worse for himself repeatedly trying and failing to get you, and he's going to wind up destroying his whole career. You go right ahead, Big Bitch. Pretend you still have authority. Pull out all the Jenga blocks and watch your entire facade and position crash.
WOW 🤯😏👏
How does big boss still have a boss?
OP's company is a service provider, so their client can dictate the terms of service since they are paying, especially if OP's company is billing the labor hours to the client and/or the client's business is a huge chunk of the company's revenue.
I wonder how they'll feel about Bad Boss when you inevitably leave because he has it out for you. Be sure to specify why you're leaving. I'm sure they'll love him after.
>Big Boss began denying it, when my boss stepped in, and was like, wait, I got an email about this. He pulls up the email Big Boss sent, and shares it on screen in the meeting. >Client is pissed, and the Corporate Rep begins ripping Big Boss a new one on the phone. After Ripping into Big Boss, the Corp Rep speaks to me, telling me to accrue as many hours as needed to make sure my job is done, and that if my company wants to retain this line of business, Big Boss is not to interfere with my generally very successful management without consulting them and myself. >Since then Big Boss has continued to try to interfere and change how I run my line, however every time so far, the Corporate Rep has had my back. They are extremely happy with my work, and know I do a great job. Heck, they even pushed through a large raise for me when Big Boss was blocking my Boss's attempts to get me more money. This must be America. How on Earth was BB not under close examination after such a massive screw-up (combined with their own denial of fault)?
You talked about internal policies in front of a client? That was an instant termination at a couple of places I worked at.
You’re a manager that gets OT? You’re not salaried? Good story
It's more likely than you would think.
Why do redditors put tldrs at the END of posts? tldr = too long, don't read... in other words if you don't want to read the long story (which in this case was delightful; well done) then just read the tldr and move on. If you're just gonna put it at the bottom, then call it a "re-cap", please. LOL [TL;DR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL;DR) (Wikipedia)
Because tldr is actually "Too long, *didn't* read", even on the Wikipedia link you just posted. It's in past tense, referring to the text you have just skipped. It tends to assume that someone has started to read, then given up due to the length. When they then scroll to the bottom, there's a tldr waiting for them. It also prevents people from mistakenly reading the tldr before the main story, which would ruin the pacing.
[удалено]
MC: No management OT. Result: It blew up the relationship with the client and they almost lost them.
Tl;dr