BPD is comparable to being perpetually submerged in a pool of boiling water.
I suspect that I have a cluster B disorder. I wouldn't inflict those attachment issues to my worst enemy.
If I saw a borderline having an abandonment breakdown, I'd grimace in horror. Knowing the feeling of what they're going through in that moment.
“When not in crisis” is the key phrase here.
I love my partner with BPD to the ends of the universe. That doesn’t stop him from tearing me down and saying cruel hurtful things over some shit he made up in his own head and can’t be reasoned out of.
this was me for 18 years. What really drove me nuts was the projection. That and the walking on eggshells—because really, some kind of crisis was weekly.. Not just made up shit to justify a teardown—but accusations around shit she’d done and would then justify or deny or twist into me attacking her when all I was doing was pointing it out.
I still feel bad for her a decade later, but man—one you fall in love with “not bpd;” theirs is nothing I miss about it.
This is specifically why I’m waiting to date until my symptoms are better. I don’t think it’s right for me to project my issues onto another person, particularly the people I love dearly. I have quiet BPD so my symptoms manifest differently from traditional to where I internalize a lot of my issues, but irregardless, I want what’s best for myself and my future partner. BPD typically goes into remission too, so there’s no excuse for someone to not acknowledge their actions or try to improve.
I think the capacity to “own it” and put any effort into managing it, is huge.
Profoundly, if it’s a thing you can see or and put effort into, then most of the world can adapt too. It’s not like anyone is perfect.
I look at what kept me coming back or burn out my own empathy or escalate in toxic ways, and I get glimpses of my own and that’s on me to manage in my later relationships.
That one was both toxic and beyond repair tho, because only one of us could see or own anything, apologize or try to change. And projecting those things back was also crazy-making. She full on believes “all I do is blame her for everything” and all i was really doing was wondering what I could have said or done differently. Ahh well.
Oh my... sorry but this just sounded so eerily familiar.. I think I did this same thing to my ex.. not intentionally.. but the things I'd believe were things like the whole thing was a setup and someone paid her to be with me and do horrible things to me, and she would just completely shut me out if I'd start saying things like that.. and idk why my brain comes to these conclusions.. it just maths everything all the time, and if something doesn't add up or make sense, then my brain will already have an answer solved using some math equations that I have no conscious understanding of. And so my ex always thought that I was doing horrible things to her and messing with her head by saying stuff like that, through my own hurt feelings and confusion.. I never could understand why she would think I was horrible to her when from my perspective, I basically dedicated my entire existence to being with her 24/7 and making sure she always had everything she could ever want or need.. and being there to listen to her when she needed someone to talk to.. that was always so important to me to be there for her, and it felt like it was all for nothing when she would have to basically 'break up with me' whenever she wanted to go 'do things' with other guys for free drugs... even though I always had the means to get her whatever she wanted 24/7/365. So her choosing to do that is what first keyed my brain off that maybe she was hurting me on purpose because she would always come back... So when I'd make a big deal about it and express how hurt I was, she would take back her apologies and turn cold to me, but it never occurred to me that the reason she was being cold towards me was because how horrible I would feel from what she would do basically made me absolutely unbearable to be around at all. And I'd be like that for weeks at a time. I just thought that the whole initial apology was fake because of how uncaring she would be after she would be completely drained from my behavior... oh man I just overshared like a mfer and I can't even follow where I'm going with that so I'm gonna hop off right here sorry about that 😅. Anyways, I clearly have some things to figure out myself and what you wrote like made me have several realizations I'd never had before. So I think I was trying to explain each one of my realizations in hopes maybe the information could help you in your situation or something like that. Anyways I'm done now sorry
List some of your realizations. Try to make sense of each one being more self aware. If you can afford it, find a good therapist, you may have to go through several therapist before you find one who will connect with you and help you grow. I spent years choosing challenging guys, not seeing the ways I create chaos and intensify the drama, which I swore I did not want in my relationships. Once I finally began to see my self, my childhood trauma, my bpd mother, my own bpd tendencies, my patterns—my choices and actions became more clear to me.
My oversharing: I was awesome in so many ways, even confident, my lack of self worth and my only ever knowing unhealthy chaotic relationships rooted most of my drama—well, this was life changing for me. Every healthy relationship I have ever managed to experience was short lived because of me. I never realized how a good thing, a healthy relationship, scared me because all I have ever known was chaotic and difficult relationships. No wonder I self medicated and gave so much of myself to undeserving men. No wonder I would only “Love” the men I wasn’t likely ever going to marry. Good chemistry, good sex valued over responsible and selfless love.
For so long, I felt like a fraud, so many seen me as the ideal woman/lover/partner. Although, I could be ideal; inside I didn’t feel worthy and I knew I was a hot mess in relationships.
I hope these words help you or someone ✌🏼
quiet pwBPD here. (for those unfamiliar, that just basically means that I lash out at myself, not others.). Can I just tell you how relieved I am to read these comments when i saw the name of the sub I was expecting it just be a rant about how all people w BPD are evil and abusive as i see so often on Reddit and it’s just so refreshing to see the empathy displayed here especially as BPD is usually a trauma based illness.
I just wanted to say thank you and I hope your having a great day.
Being abandoned by my "mother" over and over again. She would leave for a week to do drugs, having no idea where she was and would randomly reappear. I was a child.
This happened constantly. Also, choosing her drug dealing boyfriends over my own safety and comfort.
I remember being in 3rd grade slowly walking back home from school, feeling literal depressed dread.
The second i got home, I'd rush through my homework and bolt over to my friend David's house. It's not fun watching your "mother" being put into a headlock and being told to run and get help.
It was a combination of that and verbal abuse, along with being in preschool and having the shit beat out of me by my "mother's" ex husband when she wasn't home. My "mother" saw the red streaks on my body and told him to "stop doing that" but stayed with him anyways.
It was bad enough that he apologized to me about a few years ago.
The absolute cold brick wall of emotional distance from my "mother" is ineffable. It leaves an attachment "vacuum" inside of you ready to fully consume someone willing to give you an emotional bond.
Sever that or leave you after that and, well, you can imagine the hell ripped out of your body. It's the greatest high you ever feel just to be stripped of it is like a heroin withdrawal.
I spent 3 days with a girl, only 3 days where she mirrored me and I let my guard down. I spent over half a year in boiling water over her basically dropping me suddenly right after I felt that heroine high. Can you imagine feeling the best thing you've ever felt & not even getting a sip more after tasting it for only an hour long movie? (Which was when it truly kicked in.)
I was buzzing with oxytocin for months. As in, literally a buzzing feeling just from one movie. All of my mental health problems were cured during that feeling at the movie.
I lost it, I thought I'd never be the same again. I almost killed myself, was using benzodiazepines to help, and tattooed my face because I had always wanted one and was certain I was going to suicide so it didn't matter.
But I'm feeling better now, thankfully. It almost happened again. I didn't catch this one girl getting under my skin and my eyes dilated and I felt it coming back on. My brain feeling on fire again. I was terrified.
I got out of that, came back, spoke to her again, she said she did like me but thought I was involved with my ex still so she got rid of the feelings and didn't want to date me.
I left social media for 6 weeks and for the first time was cutting myself for "never being good enough." Came back and saw she didn't message me even once.
That made it easier finally deleting her for my mental health after realizing the stress of not knowing if she was going to still pay attention to me wasnt going away. Saw it slip once when she hopped out of my story midway through and then I cut it off. I truly hope for the best for her though.
Again, I feel better now. Better in a way I didn't think I'd find again. I avoid attachments now to keep myself sane and protect my happiness.
I really relate. Parental abuse, mother abandonment and all. I often wonder if I have BPD. I understand this feeling very well of being in boiling water. After my first love I couldn’t trust anyone and it took me 8 years to even consider a relationship again.
500ml water bottle.
2 teaspoons cayenne pepper powder.
Mix.
Shake and sip.
Always shake, always sip.
It isn't digestion that makes it work, it is maximum surface area exposure of capsaicin upon your skin.
Anyhow about 5 minutes, under 10. You'll get 1 of 2 things.
Endorphins release in body and mind/emotions.
Endorphins release only in body.
I'd say do it no more than every third day for consistency of euphoric release.
It is a euphoric relaxation of the heart and mind. I suggest listening to some relaxing music while doing it.
It is just maximizing the affect of spiciness.
It wl taste gross.
At least once you'll think " wtf...am I just drinking spicy water?".
Also, I should probably look into that. That euphoric high you get is from abandonment trauma huh? I get that anytime I love someone, but I intentionally don't let such feelings arise in me anymore. I don't let the spark form. Only I fill myself. It's sad but yah. Took a long time to learn to not want anyone in a real way. Hm. Dunno if that makes sense.
BIG EDIT.
This is a sly why of producing endorphins. Endorphins are released via pain or adequate physical stress. Capsaicin is interpreted as pain by the body. Lol. It Is a sly way of getting a very important chemical release that helps is break out of our funk in troubling times. It also is why you may not feel pain at first when physical injury happens. I've used it both as s physical pain killer and as a way to "feel better" emotionally. < 3
Thank you for writing this out. I've only read about the disorder before, but that gives no real explanation of what it's actually like in the head of someone dealing with it. This was very enlightening, and I'm glad you're doing so much better than before. I was taught that its one of the hardest disorders to manage, and this really helps explain why.
Glad I could help.
Just to emphasize the severity of it, I have thought about this many times:
If someone said go through that again or surgerically remove your pinky toe, I'm giving the toe.
I would much rather be temporarily thrown in a campfire than deal with that shit again. It literally feels like your brain is burning from cortisol.
The thing about burns is, you can see them healing.
There are few things as terrifying as not knowing if you're going to make it out of the pain you're feeling. Not knowing if you're stuck like that.
Take the toe.
While I know I'm not at the same level, I definitely relate to being done with letting other people close. When you keep giving trust to people that just abuse it, it gets downright impossible to expect anything better in the future. I, too, would choose the toe.
I have BPD and one time my therapist compared it to being born with no skin. The same stimulus that might not even make a “normal” person bat an eye cuts deeply into our nerves and is insanely painful. We have no emotional protection
You're welcome and I'm sorry you suffer from it too but do know living a good life is something we can achieve. Never lose hope and do know time does heal. I truly believe that if I made it out of what I made it out of, face tattoo as a survival badge, I have confidence that others can too. Hang in there your life is worth it, you are worth it, find magic in memories, in moments, in the small things. When and where you can ♡
The abandonment has gotten to a point where when my brother died recently, I tried to comfort my SIL by telling her "at least he didn't just leave because he doesn't love us anymore" apparently that's not as helpful as I thought it was
“Comparable to being perpetually submerged in water” hit home for me. I don’t think people understand that it’s not only mental draining but physically painful too
That last part is something I think about often. I even told my friend, people can see wounds and have an idea. But they can't see ours. I'm also a diagnosed bipolar. I'm very proud of myself for making it this far.
It’s a fine line though. Yes, I have compassion for them but I still can’t have that allow me to let my guard down. Regardless why they are manipulative doesn’t have anything to do with how potentially hurtful their manipulation can be. Now, some have put in the work and keep manipulation down considerably. That makes keeping and maintaining boundaries much easier. However, no level of empathy should determine where those boundaries are.
I also have compassion for narcissists. They too feel like shit about themselves and filled with insecurities too. Again, the boundaries need to be the same.
Yep, boundaries are the key. People with BPD need others to model healthy boundaries for them, so addressing it as such can be helpful and healing. They may react negatively, but maintaining healthy consistent boundaries will help them in the long run, even if it seems to hurt them in the short term.
as a person who has bpd (although i am less and less identifying with the symptoms as traits inherent to me and as ive been on my healing process i sometimes dont identify with some of the traits at all) who has primarily been in relationships with other mentally ill people/ people who have bpd as well, i finally hit a wall for myself where i couldn’t justify my behaviors because i had been on the receiving end of them so many times where i would be compassionate and understanding because i knew what it was like and how they were feeling. i knew that they weren’t doing it because they didn’t love me or didn’t care or that their primary aim was to hurt me. i knew and sometimes wrestle with even now - knowing deeply that someone i loved so much couldn’t stop hurting me or engaging in psychological abuse tactics with me because it was their best, unskillful attempt at reaching me and trying to feel heard or not alone.
but as hard as i or anyone could try, there isn’t a way to fill that void unless you are willing to embark on that journey and meet your own pain. for me, i felt forced to confront all of my people pleasing behaviors (my bpd was always more internalized although i did still lash out occasionally) and i had moved through some of the most emotionally excrutiating years of my life when my relationship with two people i loved very much (and who both had bpd) exploded. to me it was so clear that their codependency was toxic, dysfunctional and abusive, but i held out hope that we could heal together if we just learned the tools and kept trying. i was really hurt and felt both abandoned and betrayed while i was being split on and felt like their relationships to me were entirely fabricated and they didn’t know me at all. it was finally this big role reversal for me where i had primarily been in relationships where i was the pursuer and the ‘needy’ one and moving really unconsciously and unskillfully. but this time, i was on the receiving end of verbal and psychological abuse because this person i loved very much saw me as a threat because i stopped giving into appeasing them whenever they were unhappy because they saw that as evidence that i cared and more and more i was seeing that as a sign that i wasnt in an autonomous relationship. i wanted things to get better and more healthy *because* i cared about the relationship, not because i wanted to hurt them.
it was a mirror for me in seeing how much i normalized codependency and was engaging in it myself as a balm for my own attachment wounding. my grief took me through a long and long time coming healing arc of really sitting with what was inside me and self education on what therapy modalities are actually effective in general but also especially for people with cluster b disorders, ocd, cptsd, and learning how to cultivate habits and rewire/ deepen my relationship with my body where my trauma was really stored.
i had to learn that just because i can have compassion and understanding for someone else’s destructive behaviors and even learn new skills in trying to meet them that i also was allowed to have boundaries and not tolerate those behaviors because they deeply affected me, and also ultimately because i wouldnt tolerate them from others i also couldnt tolerate them from myself. i resolved to learn how to communicate my needs and know my needs and learn how to express myself in relationships and not just hold onto my volatile feelings until i exploded. i needed to learn how to develop my capacity for rejection or perceived abandonment and betrayal and learn how to be curious and ask questions and challenge the black and white thinking that no one cares or that it just made sense that people left or disregarded me. its life work and an ongoing process, but even just a year of deepening and developing my desire to attend to my inner world and hurt parts has made a huge difference. its been a little over two years since my relationship that triggered all of this ended (with efforts to try to fix things over the course of that year really going south) and. i am definitely *not* all recovered or something by any means. but holding myself accountable to my own growth is possible. just because the severity of the pain i feel and have felt was immense - doesn’t mean how i treated people i have hurt in the past was okay. it was my best unskilled attempt at communicating, and i could learn and get better. and i did, and i keep going and trying again and seeing what works. other people with bpd can too. maybe all of this was my way of proving to myself that i didnt deserve to be treated the way i was - i dont know. but growing is possible and recognizing where you messed up and actually working on yourself so people don’t have to make excuses for your behavior is possible too. sometimes the motivation is rock bottom, but hey.
edit: fixed a grammar mistake for legibility
I read this twice, and there is no way known I can articulate how much I appreciate you writing this. Our backgrounds are different, but we share a common thread with those three letters - although I agree with what you also said, that I feel less and less identified by them. My BPD has been, something. There are times I look back on my younger self, and want to hug him (although he wouldn’t like it) - and say “it’s okay, dig a little deeper, and you’ll find what you need to heal”. The way you speak of healing and self discovery, I beyond relate to. Thank you, for writing this. If you’d be up for it, I’d be happy to chat.
Every. single. person. on this planet. has a valid explanation for their misbehavior. That never makes it justified. Threatening suicide is in the top 3 worst things you can do to another human being. I have zero tolerance.
I agree people have to take responsibility for their behaviours, but people with cluster B personality disorders do not really know they have a disorder - all personality disorders are ego-syntonic.
You can make a case they should go to therapy, but they are also in denial about their disorder - so it’s very difficult for some of them to get better.
I have BPD and I’m painfully hyper aware of my issues and my disorder. It quite literally eats you from the inside out. There’s no one who absolutely hates themselves more than someone who has BPD.
Heavy on the last part. I’ll never forget the dread I felt after the diagnosis. And since then it’s like this guilt that is carried with me that just lingers. It’s awful 😞
My ex threatened suicide a number of times, she said she'd abandon her kids and go kill herself. Leaving me in the house with her kids, from a different father I should add.
I called her bluff and she changed her tune. Lost all respect after that.
Stupidly stayed, and she upped her game.
When I tried to go home, and she wanted me to stay. She battered her arm, which already had issues, off the kitchen counter, causing intense pain for her.
Being a good partner I had to return.
Stupid me.
Is this bpd ?
With all due respect to actual diagnoses of BPD, Im entering the chat to mention that women are often misdiagnosed with BPD when in fact its Autism with high masking tendencies.
I think no one needs sympathy, they need to be seen for their humanity regardless of labels.
Perhaps sympathy was not the best word then. I wrote out that post quite fast and perhaps should have chosen my words more carefully. The definition of sympathy here is ‘understanding between people; common feeling’.
I didn’t know about the misdiagnosis of BPD that could be masked autism. Thank you for the information.
No worries, I appreciate you being open for discussion. Sympathy to me means people watch from outside and there’s pity involved. The BPD experience is chronic emptiness. Staying alive while not having a reason to. No way they can tolerate sympathy alone. Compassion, empathy yes. Empathy means I don’t have to have walked in your shoes to see your experience as valid and meaningful. That’s what BPD wants and needs.
Yes, great points. When I was in training there was a really good analogy I was told about sympathy and empathy. If someone is down the bottom of a well, sympathy is looking down shouting to them that you understand their pain, but empathy is going down and sitting with them and their pain.
And yes, sympathy can connote pity, and pity is kind of looking down on people. Nietzsche actually said pity was a form of contempt 😬
Thanks again for your insights 👍🏻
I have a borderline ex. I didn’t know what bpd was (always assumed it stood for bi polar) and when we split it seemed like this big scary narcissist thing (based off some evidence I think she might of been comorbid covert npd if that matters). I mean some of the things this person did were truly awful, traumatic and made little to no sense, which only made my own healing more difficult. However the more I learned about bpd, the more I felt bad for her, like bpd has to truly suck and she’s just stuck being like that.
I mean she self harms, stays with guys who have don’t do basic things for her, she talked about one of her exes who like violated her consent a lot and she didn’t even realize it was a consent violation, she throws away guys that put the effort into building a real relationship with her because she needs the excitement of something new and the easiest way to forget her abandonment issues is to abandon, has a need for attention to the point that she does things like posts pictures of her getting gang banged on the internet. Doesn’t sound like a great life.
Yeah so I never had any of that. In my situation I was in a poly relationship with her. Her other partner was pretty pathetic. Like 40 something year old unemployed guy. I think they started dating when he was 38 and she was 24 give or take a year. He brought her around dungeons and did some really messed up things to her, degrading things like cain her boobs in front of an audience (we're talking like black and blue marks). Its odd, for the two years I was with her she rarely ever said a good thing about him, it was a lot of bad things. It got to the point where I was like she's either not telling the truth or this guy is who I think he is. It's pretty sad because looking back on it he 100% groomed her, I mean what grown man takes a girl fresh out of college to a dungeon and does shit like that. I don't know if they're still together or if she figured it out, but i imagine if she did figure it out I'd get hoovered. Live and learn tho right?
Sorry you went through that though. Its a completely shattering experience most people don't understand unless they went through it.
I was raised by a BPD mother and, almost inevitably, married a woman with BPD. I lost almost 20 years to lies, manufactured drama, suicide threats, rage, and manipulation. I escaped 10 years ago, but I doubt I'll ever truly heal from the chaos.
I don't hate my ex, and I genuinely hope that she can find some version of peace. That said, I am grateful, every day of my life, that I never have to interact with her again.
I now approach the whole cluster B issue with a different perspective. I call it "The vicious Three Legged Dog." I can feel compassion. I can feel sorrow for their situation, but I'll be fucked if I'll get close enough to pet them.
Most abusers are just unwell and have emotional issues to work out Most manipulators are also just trying to get their needs met in a male-adaptive way
If we should have empathy for BPD then we should also have empathy for NPD or abusers who come from abusive households or literally most abusive people who aren’t actual psychopaths
The idea is that you need to work on your shit and that having trauma doesnt excuse you from abusing others
I was borderline abusive to my kids because I had untreated postpartum anxiety and childhood trauma. I had compassion for myself in admitting I was being abusive, its tough having no support and a severely disabled kid with two teens to manage as well. Doesnt change the fact that it was damaging to my children and my responsibility to fix and it didnt negate the idea that I needed to make amends with my children and do what I could to help them after I had taken the time to get myself better. I am still doing all I can to help them for what they went through having a mentally ill mother, I would never expect them to have empathy for me in this instance. They have always been good to me, it is my responsibility to show empathy for them for what I put them through
Yes, it is a way to get their needs met, but it sometimes results in them doing extremely abusive things to other people and yes, that includes manipulation. Just because you can understand why they do it doesn't mean you should tolerate it. I try to avoid people with BPD because they cause a lot of stress and toxicity in the lives of people around them. That's why I usually say they need to spend many years in therapy before they have significant relationships, because they're not good for the people around them.
Oh I completely agree - I’ve worked clinically with several BPD clients and their behaviour was outrageous. The most difficult clients you can work with.
I’m not saying their behaviour should be tolerated, it was just a post to make people aware of the deep insecurity and pain that underpins their troublesome behaviour.
The problem is they externalize their inner torment and cause permanent damage and epigenetic trauma to their victims, and innocent bystander. I have not met a single bpd or npd who was able to be consistent in maintaining active recovery they end up slipping and doing vile things to those they claim to love the most. I hope there will be advancements in the future to actually make them safe to associate with, I had a horrible tragic childhood but I never chose to externalize my suffering or lost the ability to self assess. I find this rhetoric to pity them and have empathy alarming because people reading this may be convinced to stay with their pd partners because they feel compassion for them and they love them despite their evil tendencies even if they come from a place of childhood wounding, they are still vile and cruel when they are triggered, I have permanent physical and mental scars from these broken dangerous arrested development selfish people. It’s not worth it y’all you deserve a healthy adult relationship. Go to therapy to address whatever codependency and weak boundaries let you get sucked in by them and live and be free of toxicity. Life is too short to be a pseudo parent for broken people who refuse or are incapable to do the work to heal and grow.
Thank you for working with BPD clients, not everyone takes them. I even knew a practitioner who said he didn't because "Fuck those people, they're terrible people"
Yes, my supervisor advised against it too.
They consider it too hard work, too professionally dangerous.
But I found it incredibly rewarding and probably grew as much as my client.
Maybe one day my exwife will meet someone like you. I had to cut her off 4 years ago, the abuse was going to kill me. She hurts everyone around her and has been diagnosed with bipolar and bpd by 4 different doctors but still denies it. Knowing what she went through made me sympathetic... but she just used that against me. It's hard knowing that they have been damaged but at some point you have to judge people on their actions.
Wow, that seems extreme. But yeah, there's a reason most therapists don't want them or narcissists as clients.
I also sort of think a lot of therapists just aren't willing to put that kind of work in for little reward (who can blame them?) Unless the client is wealthy, they're going to be very difficult and it likely won't pay off.
I agree. Sounds like OP is trying to justify their toxic partner’s (or their own) emotionally abusive actions. All of what OP described IS emotional abuse, no matter what kind of personality disorder the abuser has.
Yes, it's very severe emotional abuse and it's not okay to let it go. We all have needs but getting your needs met like that requires pushback because other people have needs as well.
I don't like this new trend of trying to romanticize people with BPD. It's still a very severe disorder when it results in someone acting this way.
Perhaps you are explaining WHY they manipulate, but that doesn't mean it's not manipulation. That doesn't mean it's not toxic for people exposed to it.
People with BPD don’t manipulate others to control them or benefit from it; it’s more of a subconscious behavior from emptiness in some emotional area. That’s just my guess though from what I’ve seen, I had an ex girlfriend with BPD and it just seemed like when she did try and manipulate me, it was either to make sure I don’t leave her (she had abandonment issues) or it was to make sure she wasn’t going to be hurt it someway. It was sad but toxic for me personally so I couldn’t stay with her and watch her drown anymore but I can’t fix anyone so I had to make a choice for me.
I'm a retired therapist, and you nailed it. And any of you licensed mental health practitioners who refuse to work with people with BPD, you don't belong in the business. Folks with BPD who are refused treatment based on this diagnosis, please report these doctors, nurses, and therapists to their licensing boards.
and i’m a current psychotherapist. you’re telling me the 1st year licensees or interns should be given patients with ptsd with severe dissociative symptoms? strongly disagree.
maybe a different topic, but i actually think this is a big problem in the field. no, not every clinician is equally qualified, educated, or adept to the same level in every diagnosis, and patients should be aware of this- for their sake, because it is our job to make sure they get the care that they deserve, even if that means referring out for HLOC. same can be said for any PD. there are clinicians who frankly are not educated enough and/or do not have the experience to fulfill our duty for adequate care. i find it dangerous and harmful to suggest otherwise, specifically those who are in need of adequate care. i can’t tell you the amount of times i witnessed this firsthand working in nonprofit CMCs. it’s unprofessional and a disservice to the people who arguably need consistent specialized treatment the most. Unless the clinician is under seriously stellar supervision- absolutely not.
this is precisely why i am so protective of my patients who are from more vulnerable populations. they tend to be the ones that minimal experience clinicians use to “try xyz diagnosis out” and practice a poorly understood modality they only read about.
this is actually a very well known measure within our ethics guidelines. can we blame the equity of our masters/clinical programs ? maybe. lack of adequate supervision? sure. i would. but we all know at least 1/3rd of what we learn is on our own accord post grad. and that’s not a given. there are clinicians out here claiming to effectively treat BPD fully unaware of the research behind treatment efficacy. it is absolutely more harmful to the patient than not. refer out.
Thank you for this post! I've been reading so much negativity coming from Reddit about BPD. Being somebody who has BPD it does not feel good, pretty triggering tbh.
This one was really nice to read though.
My husband is diagnosed BPD, along with 4 other diagnoses. We have been together for 32 years and we deeply and truly love each other. It's not always been easy, but it's worth it. There are people out there who will understand you, and why you do and say certain things and will love you through it.
Two of my best (but also worst) GFs have it. I don’t look down on women with it. I didn’t know much about it with the first, but I was able to be much more sympathetic, patient, and provide validation for the second. That relationship was stable for about 2 years because of that. Also, she was pretty self-aware and would accept constructive criticism regarding her thoughts and decisions. Ultimately, she has major trust issues and at some point split, demonized, and then cheated. My patience and understanding evaporated pretty quickly when I realized what she was doing, especially after she started stonewalling about this stuff.
Still, I try to remind myself that it’s not entirely her fault. So, I don’t just think of her as another untrustworthy ex. Now if a woman has BPD and isn’t willing to admit to or work on it, I don’t want anything to do with her. I don’t need that kind of chaos, drama, and negativity in my life.
We really shouldn’t demonize people with a mental illness or disorder. We’ve all got something and none of us want to be put in a category because of it. It’s still our responsibility to take care of ourselves and not inflict our problems on others.
Thank you for not demonizing people who struggle with mental illness. There is nothing worse than already hating yourself, constantly feeling guilt, shame, embarrassment, and depression in a constant rapid cycle, struggling with rumination or intrusive thoughts, dissociating, and then to have someone throw it back in your face about how you are such an awful person and a psychopath for struggling with mental illness. It's never an excuse for actions and behaviors, but sometimes mentally ill people don't realize what they are doing because their reality is so different. A little compassion for people goes a very long way. You are a very good person.
I had such a traumatic childhood because of my BPD mom. And I love her and understand the WHY of her behavior. That doesn't make any of what I went through okay. Abuse is still abuse. And you can rephrase and reframe the word manipulation any way you like, but at the end of the day, you can call a turd a rose, but it's still gonna smell bad.
My ex ex gf is diagnosed w bpd and then I strongly suspect my subsequent gf after her had npd
I would describe them as extremely similar personality types, both having like this way of coming across really sweet and innocent, the main difference was my ex w bpd hated herself and the other one I suspect npd was obsessed with herself
The npd one was also a lot more manipulative and calculated in her manipulation, so interestingly despite npd being 8 years younger than bpd I would say bpd is a lot more innocent (23 and 31 today)
Both loved to be in control of everything at all times and both did the voluntary over sharing of red flags up front that only people on this spectrum seem to do
Yea, having bpd sucks, but I'm not going to pretend we are good people either. I agree with your point and living with bpd is torture but I also understand why people can't or don't want to handle our bullshit.
If someone with BPD isn’t in active therapy, classes and groups then they are dangerous and cannot be trusted. Under no circumstances let them into your life or near your loved ones.
Unfortunately there is a lot of truth to that.
Read some of the comments here, a guy with BPD pretty much agreed with what you said.
This is a terrible affliction though, these people are ill and find it almost impossible to control their destructive behaviours. I really hope they get the help they need.
My boyfriend took off with no explanation last night and stole my phone. I called him repeatedly for 18 hours. Gave up and had the cops get it from him. He said he didn't know why he did it. Last week he changed his relationship status to engaged to some random girl. Said he did it to see if I cared. Not sure if I will date another person with BPD again.
idk. i have BPD and before treatment i was a literal menace to society and basically a relationship terrorist. yea, it was due to my mental illness, but it shouldn’t be excused. there are a lot of people who have this disorder but are not diagnosed and do not wish to be diagnosed and we just label them as assholes.
its painfully ironic though because all i want is to be close to people and i know my behaviors are doing everything to keep people away.
i lost all of my relationships and spent six months in a mental health facility. i was an alcoholic and being reckless and impulsive. didn’t go to work, yelled at customer service reps, being obnoxious on public transit, etc. i was a true asshole.
i got medicated and focused on myself. i’m not perfect but i have some close friends and i might even be ready to date after the three years since my last relationship.
Glad you got help. And yes, it is ironic that when you desperately want connection and affection you can behave in ways that drive people away.
Self awareness is the way out of this - keep it up and well done 👍🏻
I have borderline avoidant personality disorder, it's not about me but the way that is environmentally surrounding i am not sure of borderline disorders there are variations of such and a scope of many types, I recognize my weakness and strive to confront
Everyone can be toxic. Some personality traits or PTSD or live experiences can make it even more so! Like have a bad relationship or being insecure can make you a bad partner.
Same goes for adhd, and cluster B. Cluster b deff gets a bad wrap. It's a lot harder for them. Buuut. They are in charge of themselves. If they are not actively working on themselves to be better and not hurt others- they need to fuck off.
I was diagnosed with bipolar, and I realized, while it's not my fault I never asked for it, jt can cause a lot of issues for me and those around me. I need to make sure I'm in therapy, on meds and sleep. Other wise.... I don't deserve shit. But even then, not everyone can handle me. Mostly my adhd symptoms. And that's ok. I can't handle people who need constant reassurance. Nothing wrong with me or them.
They can be very abusive, but they change their behaviors with professional help. It takes a lot of time, work, and patience for the person with bpd and their loved ones. People with bpd are capable of being in a loving relationship.
Mate, I can relate. I am terrified of abandonment too and I ruined an 18 year marriage by my provocative draining behaviour. It’s almost like I ‘beat her to the punch’. But there was no fight. It was all in my head.
Fear of abandonment is BPD is so amplified that I don’t think a lot of people can relate.
Im glad you’re in therapy though and I hope things work out 👍🏻
It’s tough but there’s somebody for everyone. I have dated or been married to 3 people with bpd. It is literally attractive to me without even knowing that before hand. Just stay positive, go to therapy and make sure to use the tools you learn so you don’t spiral or get destructive to the people close to you
It’s hard to describe how bad it feels to have it. Like, the physical pain aspect of it. I am numb to a lot of physical harm like bruises, cuts, etc, but being anxious *hurts* my chest.
I feel like I can’t breathe when I’m highly emotional, I get so shaky I’m unable to drive or function, it’s exhausting to have your nervous system constantly firing. I sleep for 16 hours a day sometimes and 4 others because it’s impossible to sleep with my heart beating so fast.
I’m lucky to have a very passive partner who won’t enable me but I wouldn’t wish this disorder on my worst enemy. (I have never threatened self harm or anything of that sort and have overcome most “manipulative” tendencies before my current one.)
You're right. People with BPD often struggle with emotional regulation and intense fear of abandonment. Their behaviors, while intense, often stem from a place of deep-seated insecurity and a need for connection. Here's a short take on BPD:
* **Emotional Dysregulation:** Difficulty managing emotions, leading to intense mood swings, anger, or sadness.
* **Unstable Relationships:** BPD can make it hard to maintain healthy relationships due to fear of abandonment and turbulent emotions.
* **Fear of Abandonment:** People with BPD may go to great lengths to avoid perceived abandonment, even resorting to manipulation.
* **Impulsive Behaviors:** BPD can lead to risky or impulsive behaviors like substance abuse, self-harm, or reckless spending.
Great, thanks ☺️
Add in splitting as well. That is a very intense one for relationships. Idealisation and denigration. People are split in a black and white way so they are either the best person ever or the devil.
Wow! I have severe abandonment issues from childhood. My mom would constantly leave me and my sisters alone for days sometimes weeks while she went out and got her fix. We would literally go from door to door asking for food bc we didn't have any. Mind you I'm not even 6 and my oldest sister was 8. I would steal money out of my mom's purse so I could go to the laundry mat 1 1/2 miles from my house to get food from the vending machine. Thank god for the woman who called cps.
I was taken from my mom and placed with my nanny which is my dad's mom. I had no idea who they were because I never met them. After 1 head I was placed with my dad but after completing a school head he took me back to my nanny's and dropped me off in the middle of the night. I tried for years and years to have a relationship with my dad but he disowned me because my husband is black and I'm white. He passed away in 2022 from Covid.
I've attempted suicide 4 times within the last few years. I've grown a bunch but since I have went through so much I also have suffered a great deal mentally.
“Just a desperate unskilled attempt”
Why does nobody think it’s a problem? Doesn’t everyone else also need to get their needs met? Why do some people get to throw a hissy fit, treat people like shit, intentionally manipulate people and then say it’s “just ‘manipulation’ “ as if because you struggle it’s nbd?
My ex who had BPD was just SO unbelievably selfish that he couldn’t grasp that spreading misery to me and treating me like crap lying and manipulating was not only not helping him get his needs met but was also ruining my life?? What gives him that right? He needs to stick his ass in therapy and stay there.
I personally have bipolar.
I’ve been sticking to meds and trying new ones until I got it right for years.
I’ve stuck with therapy for *years*
Why shouldn’t he have done those things?
I have taken accountability for the fact that if I don’t take care of my problems not only is it bad for me but it also hurts the people who love me.
Why do (some) people with BPD not care? This is why the disorder has such a horrible reputation because so many people simply want to say oh I have a mental health problem it’s not my fault.
Guess what? Your actions are still your fault just like mine are. It’s the not caring part that’s sick and twisted.
I have a friend that I'm now suspecting has BPD. They are frustrated with their work and living situation and it's been insane. They were talking about killing themselves for over a week. Cold shoulders, talking about how no one cares if they live or die - that they're going to be homeless ( they have substantial savings) it's constant. It's becoming apparent that they want me to " fix it," but it's nothing I can fix. Now I've been distancing myself for my own sanity and it's further proof to them that I don't care.
I dated a girl and didn't know what BPD was. One day I came across it mentioned and looked it up. Bingo! It all just immediately clicked. She fit almost every single symptom. Especially the fits of rage over seemingly small things.
Being manipulative, even to get your emotional needs met, is still scummy.
People with bpd are not children, and need to be held to the same standard of accountability as any other adult, when it comes to abusive behaviors.
I dated someone with BPD...two months felt like 8 exhausting years. It was emotionally exhausting and yes she was quite manipulative. Was it solely out of desperation, insecurity, blah blah...yes likely so? I don't care, manipulation is manipulation regardless of the reason. I went into the relationship having sympathy I came out still with sympathy but knowing that it takes a special person to be with someone who has bpd. Maybe it was just her but she was just SO MUCH and was going to destroy my mental health. The projection, blaming, insecurity, mood swings...holy shit.
Yeah, I’ve heard this from a lot of people. You get ‘compassion fatigue’. Objectively you can see they might be a decent person just damaged, but they damage you so much that… well, you know.
Absolutely. Compassion fatigue is currently something I suffer from. She was a wonderful girl when she was at base level. Super beautiful too. Smart, appeared to be successful...I had a hard time understanding why she was single until I realized why. I wish I were strong enough to show her something different than what she's used to but I had to look out for my own well being. I hope she got help.
It’s good you can say kind things about her and keep your objectivity about this. Read some of the comments here - people can end up holding a lot of anger and resentment.
People are more than their mental health and we are all human. Don't get me wrong though, it took me a good minute to calm down and be able to look at the situation objectively.
its not just fatigue, its the constant reward of more abuse and accusations for trying your damnedest.
i hope my ex finally got the help she needs, but very thankful to be past that chapter. she was bad to me but wasnt bad at her core.
thank you for this. there have been times i have resorted to the tactics you mentioned in the midst of really bad episodes and thought that i am really a nasty person with bad intentions but i know i just love way too hard and everything gets messy … its pure desperation and nothing else , the idea of manipulation means some pre-calculation is involved right… anyway thank you for this deeply compassionate comment , it touched me
No problem 😌
You have just made me think actually. BPD ‘manipulation’ is unskilled because it’s not premeditated, as you say. That explains it. If it was premeditated it would be more sophisticated, but it’s born out of impulsive desperation.
Wow. Great insight.
Thanks!
Pretty sure my dad has bpd, he was a fantastic supportive dad who really cared, but any hint of independence or ‘giving lip’ and violent rage sometimes with extreme violence would come out of nowhere. Then he would be all sweet and pretend it never happened.
I have disorganised attachment and cptsd, so I really understand the feelings people with bpd have but I do not get into a rage and hurt people. Bpd and npd are just trying to get their needs met But their lack accountability and inability to learn from their mistakes. Which makes relationships harmful to everyone who loves them.
Yeah, it’s tragic really.
It’s hard to feel sympathy with someone who has hurt you, and it’s complicated trying to work out if the person with BPD, NPD or whatever is responsible for their actions.
They need help, but being in denial means they don’t see there is a problem, and then there is no motivation to find a solution.
Some do, and they have shared their stories on this post. And I’ve massive respect that they are addressing their issues. All cluster B disorders are disastrous for everyone concerned.
I suspect I have BPD. My partner of 2 years has meant the world to me. However, I have hurt him far too much where I have hurt his self esteem. I didn’t mean to say things in the moment, I often tell myself don’t say it don’t say it but can’t seem to help it. He grew resentment towards me and finally left. I miss them so much and wish I could have solved my issues sooner. Now I’m left to deal with the guilt and shame that I hurt someone I truly love so much. I wish I could go back in time and change that. Ik leaving me was the best decision for them in terms of their own mental health.
I think my ex has BPD. I was so clueless, I wish I could have been a better boyfriend but I had no idea.
I think she realized she had it as well during our messy break up. I feel guilty at times but my mental health was suffering trying to keep us together.
Any tips with regards with dating someone who could possibly have it?
I have little sympathy for bpd. I have tons of empathy for their childhood, I have zero patience for the self created drama and chaos they choose to create as adults. As well as for using their diagnos as an excuse for all the harm they cause. Often they refuse to do therapy
This, this 100%. My worst BPD breakdowns with “bad behavior” were all a direct result of my ex abusing me or manipulating me *first.* She’d accuse me of being another manipulative borderline, when the only time I would do any of those behaviors is when she spent hours literally hand crafting a series of triggers. The breakdowns I had after her were all straight, pure panic. Threatening myself was, in my mind at the time, the literal only thing I could do because it felt like nothing else showed how serious I was about how badly I was panicking.
Yea it's true, I have bpd and have tried my best to approach every situation with the upmost cognitive flexibility so that I can change my personality but people who have no clue what bpd is will confidently say it's a form of narcissism which really made me think I was a narcissist for a while. I know people will see bpd and think that I'm trying to garner sympathy but I'm not. Although I have bpd there isn't someone that I've really hurt since I was very young like 13 years old.
It’s great you have that awareness and know you have to be aware of your behavioural patterns.
I mean, we all have to in a way, we go into social situations/relationships and have to conduct ourselves in an appropriate way, it’s just harder for some people.
Yeah it still sucks to be dating someone with it. Wouldn’t want to have anyone else ever go through that. While not from bad intention it’s still manipulative and sucks to be stuck in.
Everybody has a seemingly valid reason for their poor behavior. Every abuser, manipulator, etc is trying to get their needs/wants met in an unproductive way. If we should have sympathy for people with BPD, there's no reason that sympathy shouldn't extend to narcissists or other abusers. I have none left to give. Abuse is still abuse. My last long-term ex was what I call a "walking cluster b platter". I saw a lot of BPD traits, but she was diagnosed with NPD and ASPD. Her manipulation was far from unskilled and she had moments of admitting to exactly what she did and why with no remorse. Imagine Alex Forrest from Fatal Attraction (who my ex completely sympathized with by the way), Nellie Oleson from Little House on the Prairie, and Anna Delvey from Inventing Anna rolled into one person and you have my ex. Anyone who comes across her would change their tune on sympathy and "unskilled attempts".
cPTSD and BPD here. Currently doing EMDR with my therapist. I’m finding as we “process” each of my traumas thru EMDR, that my reactivity, my BPD, lessens. The key is realizing that I’m triggered and removing my self from the situation to go deal with my feelings.
Bpd is also a spectrum. Ppl can have mild bpd and feel fairly calm most of the time then there are people who have severe bpd who can become violent and then everything in between. Also everyone is on a different journey, lots of people going to therapy or doing workbooks to try to help themselves and some people who have no idea they even have it or can't afford to get help.
I have BPD and this feels very accurate. I honestly felt like I was on fire all of the time when I was out of control. I'm very open about how I think I was a genuinely horrific person and I would never blame anyone who had to deal with me if they just deeply hate me for how I was. It took so much work and therapy, years upon years of just identifying the mass amount of toxic traits in me and then realizing I really could change them. I still work every single day to make sure I'm being considerate and understanding of others. It's extremely important to me now to not upset others or make people uncomfortable. That wasn't who I was, and it wasn't who I wanted to keep being. Having the diagnosis really helped. Knowing there was a reason I was so awful made me confront the line between being traumatized and being an asshole.
That’s amazing. The opposite of acting in bad faith.
I know how difficult it is to deal with BPD symptoms. It shows people can change and control personality disorders if they’re motivated enough.
All the best 👍🏻
Thank you, honestly I just really appreciate your compassion on the topic. I try very hard to show people that it's just another way of being out of control, hell some people with BPD (me included) have actual delusions and reality breaks much like schizophrenia! But having the tools and the motivation to *want* to use them goes such a long way.
I'm much more lucky than the average person who gets a BPD diagnosis, though. I have to give credit to the fact that I've been in therapy since I was four years old (for something unrelated) and they were able to identify when I started showing more intense mental illnesses. I got early intervention and started building tools before I was even technically being looked at for the BPD diagnosis. I had a hard time, and did indeed reject help for a while (teen years, you think you know it all right?), but having that basis in therapy led me back on track faster than most BPD sufferers. It pains me to know that there are people out there who are so deeply not okay and don't even realize there's something actually wrong with them.
Yes, a lot of people are suffering because they don’t have a diagnosis or know there is something wrong with the way they perceive themselves and other people.
Often these people (if female) are just labelled ‘bunny boilers’ - and I did read somewhere that the character Glenn Close played in the film Fatal Attraction was scripted as having BPD.
I practiced as a psychoanalyst for over 10 years and worked with a few BPD clients. Yes, they can be challenging, idealising you one minute and denigrating you the next - threatening to harm themselves if you didn’t see them immediately etc.. but it was all part of this terrible disorder.
It was ultimately immensely rewarding to work with these clients and see them gradually improve. Especially when they were as motivated and committed to change as you obviously are.
I’m so sorry for the events you’ve lived through that may have caused this diagnosis. And I have to say that I’m so proud of you for the hard work you’ve put into yourself!
My best friend is borderline and became self aware a couple of years ago. She’s really struggling with it along with self sabotaging behaviours, but she’ll still do what she can to be there for me when I’ve needed her. I will always be there when she needs me, too! She’s fiercely loving, and an absolute best friend. I hate the stigma you guys face. I wish the absolute best for you!
People with BPD, the driving force for them is fear of being abandoned. When people remember this, you can easily deconstruct why they do everything from a place of fear and not from a place to hurt others in purpose.
This doesn’t excuse the ones who intentionally are consciously aware of this and utilize it to do things that are harmful, it’s a very, very, very, very tiny pool of people who most likely have a wrong diagnosis and are not BPD… it does happen.
But people forget these four cluster B types noticing fears:
• NPD: fear of being unloved/forgotten
• BPD: fear of being abandoned
• HPD: fear of being unwanted/ignored
• ASPD: fear of being controlled
Easier to understand how they operate, makes sense what creates the behavior they do.
If you’ve met and been involved with anyone that has the diagnosis then you wouldn’t be posting this. BPD is an acronym for evil. Just not sure of the details. Haha
Correct me if I’m misreading you, but it sounds like you’re saying that because their manipulation is motivated by other factors, it’s somehow not manipulation (since you put it in quotes).
That’s not how the world works. Even though they might have reasons to manipulate which are beyond their control, it’s still manipulation. For example. If someone were to sneeze while driving and it caused her to kill a pedestrian, she still killed somebody. Motivation or mental dysfunction does not change the results of the actions.
I have reserved sympathy, but within context of the results, any sympathy is quite limited, and completely unengaged with the cluster B person. The older I get, the happier I feel to wrap all of that in a package I call “other peoples problems”, never to be opened!
Nah, it’s an adult tantrum. Maybe if someone is undiagnosed and isn’t aware, but if someone who has been diagnosed with BPD and is actively refusing treatment decides to have a go at you, oh boyo that is just abuse.
Hey, I'm someone with BPD hello hello 👋
I've put in 13 years of non-therapy mindfulness that transitioned my explosions to implosions in effort to rationalize past transgressions with more compassion. It's a long time coming that dragged people in my closest circle but I have apologized for the harm I've done. Since I'm imploding now, the hurt I give to others is by isolating myself and keeping them at arms distance which, is just *slightly* better imo. I give all that tmi context because I know what it's like to lash out or completely implode until your insides are decaying but I also empathize with what it's like to be on the receiving end to someone who isolates for days on end and terrified that they're dead in their room or to see your loved one go through life as a smiling zombie, clearly dead inside but fully functioning. I'm (finally) in therapy since the start of this year.
Imo, it's a tragedy to call people with pd's irredeemable monsters who are only out to do harm but I can't necessarily blame others for that perception, especially if they've been badly hurt by someone with pd. But such generalized beliefs are what makes the world go 'round sometimes, because yeah, if I met another BPD who was in the midst of violence or abuse even if it was an abandonment breakdown, I'd try to save myself first to keep another traumatic event from happening to me. Those who are affected by pd's should receive un-demonized help AND support from fellow non-clinical humans because we are people who need a village the most but they (including myself) should also expect that people will distance themselves from us because of the harm we can legitimately bring.
But ofc, the dichotomy is hard to sit with in people who have a PD and those who don't. So the least I can do is just tell my perceptive to mitigate some demonization without falling to into being fetishized.
I wish it wasn't the case tho, that I could live life not controlled by the fears perpetuated by bpd and that others wouldn't demonize people like me just for having BPD bc wow, those "Stay away from them, they're bad people" YouTube comments are HURTFUL when I put in the research lol.
But it is what it is, lemonade out of lemons.
I had a roommate who was BPD and she was super manipulative had all us other roommates running around for her and doing things for her and she wasn’t even appreciative. She lived a hectic life and needed everyone helping her out and she was bitchy to us but then when she’d need something she was all nice out of the blue. She would date men for like a few months really intensely then break up with then. Had tons of different careers she was gonna do then would quickly change her mind. Lived all over the country and would abandon housing situations and people super fast.
I believe my younger sister has BPD. I was parentified by my parents. I took the brunt of the physical and emotional abuse, while she was the golden child. Despite that I never blamed her or felt jealousy and we were always very close. Since she was a teen though she has had emotional outbursts at me, laugh at my feelings, project blame and anger for her life being how it is, threaten to kill herself because I “don’t help her.” She also makes constant comments about how I’m “soooo perfect.” She constantly seeks validation, and I was often her biggest cheerleader. I started to notice that when I accomplished something she would withhold any congratulations. She also posts constant sexual stuff on social media to get attention. It triggers me tbh because my mom constantly put us in horrible situations because she was chasing men. I chose to leave my family and hometown and get an education and focus on a career, while she started having kids at 18. I’ve been no contact with her for awhile. It’s heartbreaking to lose my sister, but I cannot be the object of her angry projections anymore. I know why she does what she does, but her pain is not more important than my own.
Some people with BPD are aware of it and while not making the best decisions they are willing to try their best and I can sympathize with that. However not all of them are like that. My ex has BPD and instead of trying to have her emotional needs met in a even kind of reasonable way would instead insist that I literally read her mind and that I should know when something is a problem BEFORE it is a problem. She would use her BPD and her autism as a shield to deflect any responsibility and say she is completely unable to just state what is wrong or what she wants. People who use these disorders at weapons and shields or as a way to manipulate like she did constantly dont deserve the sympathy.
I see what you’re saying. Some people act in bad faith. Ultimately we have a responsibility to play the hand we were dealt. It’s very frustrating when people get a diagnosis and then use it as an excuse to act out.
We are what we do with what’s been done to us.
I’ve had them in my life, currently living with a bpd person. She doesn’t know it. What’s most difficult and frustrating is 1. She doesn’t think she has it. 2. Dealing with her and the abuse is a normal occurrence. 3. Correcting her behavior just leads to more abuse, reactance. 4. I’ve come to the point where I just let her win reinforcing her bad behavior.
Her - ‘Hurtful statement’ Me - “ok thanks”
otherwise,
Her ‘Hurtful Statement’ Me- “that’s not kind, I don’t feel great when you talk to me like this.” Her - “that sucks, stop being sensitive” or “grow up” etc
Which shows extreme lack of empathy. Just like anything in life you need to try, and the fact that someone who is aware of having bpd doesn’t actively get better is NOT an excuse. I’ve had terrible traumatic events happen in my life, but I’m constantly growing and learning to try and be better.
This girl in particular has had nothing happen, and has always had people reinforce her bad behavior.
Sounds like she is in denial.
Until she accepts she has a problem she will never change - obviously.
That’s one of the main problems with personality disorders, they are ego-syntonic, they don’t know they have a problem. Which is a problem in itself.
She was the reason I learned everything I know now about the other. But the fact that I was discarded just as I was about to have a prolonged conversation about All the odd things happening, she had a rage moment and blamed me for her kids dysfunction... We were only together for an intense 4 months. Although now I'm entering the hardest phase of individuation, also the discard may have been my golden ticket, but you never grow if you never face your fears. Why would anyone choose lifetimes of being "dead whilst alive". Pathetic and abusive people. Especially considering the success rates of those who do a few mere years of therapy and more purposefully, inner work/self work. Karma is passing your traumas on to others.
Oh gotcha, I hadnt seen your other post.
It definitely is easy to feel bad for them, because they do things to themselves. And are their own worst enemies. But then again when you start pitying them, is when youre more vulnerable to a dagger in the back. My ex had bpd and I still pity her, although she was extremely manipulative and tried to do everything she could to destroy me. Pity from a great distance is definitely preferable. So I agree it can make you feel more sympathetic.
I mean sure but that’s probably true of most people who do unacceptable things to meet their needs so I don’t understand how this is unique in any way here
I suppose I’m just pointing out a distinction between different kinds of manipulation. You can consciously manipulate an old lady out of her life savings or manipulate your partner to do what you want.
But people with BPD lose control and often have huge shame and guilt over their actions.
I agree the end result is the same, but more understanding of their unconscious uncontrollable impulse to hurt others will hopefully humanise them a bit more.
I think you should focus more on the last thing you just said and be wary of enabling. It’s very a thin line.
I think the distinction here is more about how directly you’re primed to empathize with certain motivations.
Yeah they have huge shame and guilt, know it’s wrong and then do it again but somebody we seem to prefer that to a psychopathic person that did something less wrong because we can’t see ourselves in them as much. Even empathy can be narcissism in disguise.
I think you have stumbled onto the worthwhile point that some behaviours can be reliable and specific.
I don’t think we should necessarily strive to be less compassionate in any case—understanding is important. But let’s not allow our misguided empathy to enable people to continually engage in behaviours that harm other people. That’s never okay, and there’s no unique set of reasons that change that. Firmness and directness can be invaluable here. It needs to be made clear that certain behaviours just aren’t going to fly but we should also make it clear that we want to help people find another way to meet their needs where we can
Dunno why that popped up but people who are willing to manipulate and can't be responsible for it deserve no sympathy or understanding.
The only two options if you choose to have these people in your life is hold them absolutely accountable for their behavior and be willing to leave, or just cut them out right away and save time.
Oh I didn’t mean to offend anyone with this post - just to flag up the pain and vulnerability behind what some people think is just horrible behaviour.
More power to you and it’s great you reflected on your situation and sought professional help - it takes a lot of courage to do that - huge respect ✊
I suppose we all manipulate to a degree. Albert Camus once said ‘Charm is a way to get the answer yes without directly asking for anything’.
We manipulate to get ahead in our jobs, to get others to do what we want etc. But that’s different from a desperate need to get our emotional needs met.
Yeah. I spent most of my life believing that people were constantly strategizing to achieve particular outcomes (I am more cerebral and tend to think about my life this way). It's been a shock to realize that most people are just desperately trying to get their emotional needs met. Just flailing around trying whatever might work.
Love the quote!
Yeah, I think when you can see the vulnerability at the core of most people and the bungled strategies they unconsciously employ to get their needs met, it really changes how you fell about others - and then how you relate to them. It’s a very powerful insight.
Glad you liked the quote 😉👍🏻
Not neccesarily. There are some very manipulative people with BPD that isnt as innocent as you say, and not to mention, you could say any sort of manipulation from a cluster b personality disorder is that way. It's all to get their emotional needs met and often happens reflexually. Even npd is like that. It's exactly how you described alot of the time. People just reacting to their emotions and trying to save their image of themselves in their head, following strong emotions.
NPD is another one, you’re right. Being manipulative to gain attention and narcissistic supply.
Ultimately all cluster B personalities need to be understood as damaged individuals, not innately bad people.
Imagine your partner is stuck in a never ending attempt to gaslight you and whether or not they are good enough at that to bend your reality.... They gaslight themselves in the same move.
As far as I catagorize things, BPD folks have a hard time distinguishing from events they imagined from events that actually occured, a journal would probably help if the person was willing.
But Id definetly have an easier time trusting a schizophrenic and place a BPD sufferer on the same trust level as a crackhead.
Its a very easy way to be accused of sexual assault from someone you may have only seen once.
My brother has lost everything because of BPD. (Plus drugs which he didn’t touch until his mid 40’s)
Only our mum has not given up on him. I had to pull away for my own mental health sake. Being near him feels like being in a dark thunderstorm. My parents are in their late 70’s and he makes their life a living hell. I feel helpless that I can’t do anything to help.
When he is calm he will give his life to help a stranger.
yes, manipulation doesn’t always mean what everyone automatically thinks, however all of those things are very damaging and aren’t something anyone should have to go through, just because their partner has a mental illness. i was like that before i knew what BPD was; now i’ve researched the shit out of it, and anything that seemingly works for others, i apply to my life and try my best. i’ve acknowledged that those are manipulation tactics, i wasn’t even aware at the time! i just thought “i have big emotions and i can’t handle this anymore”. but that’s not fair to our partners, our friends, or our family
I’ve had friends with BPD. Both were charismatic when first meeting them. But both of them had some serious substance abuse issues and would habitually burn all their bridges every six months. They’d threaten self harm, gaslight people when they did something shitty, would launch smear campaigns against people who called them out, get shit faced and start fights, etc.
I get that they are in a ton of mental pain pretty much constantly. But for my own mental health I had to cut ties. And everyone they ended up replacing me with did the same. It doesn’t matter what their intentions were - bottom line is that they were extremely toxic and self destructive. They both forced me into a codependent relationship where I felt obligated to keep them alive and out of harms way. And all they’d do in return is lie, guilt trip, and shame me. They always brought drama and chaos wherever they went. For the time I was friends with them - it was constant hell. It got to the point where I was constantly under so much stress I got a stomach ulcer. Those two ended up replacing me with the next fresh batch of enablers after about six months. And now they are either ostracized or no contact with everybody on campus. One of them was even banned from every bar in town for creeping on women and instigating fights.
I get that their mental illness is debilitating, and I wouldn’t wish that kind of chronic agony onto anybody. But that doesn’t mean we should not hold these people accountable. They know something is very wrong and yet neither of them took mental health help seriously.
What you're describing is, in fact, manipulation, it's just manipulation you can understand and reason through.
If I'm close to someone drowning, and their wild thrashing breaks my nose, my nose is still broken, I have been struck, it didn't hurt less because they had a good reason.
"but this ‘manipulation’ is usually just a desperate, unskilled attempt to get their emotional needs met - giving unreasonable ultimatums, threatening suicide, self harm etc."
Still manipulation.
From the perspective of an outsider, the person they are manipulating and abusing, does it really matter? My ex would cry to me about how their parent or others would always accuse her of doing certain behaviors in an attempt to manipulate them or to make them feel bad. It achieved the same result so what does the intent behind it really matter when it happens over and over?
If I programmed a robot to do the same thing would you really care that it doesn't mean it? Just because they aren't aware of the behavior doesn't make it okay. There's the saying how we judge ourselves by our intent and others by their actions, as if this is a bad thing and should be stopped. There's a good reason we do it, and people with BPD are at the top of the list as to why. Who cares if they have a good reason for being a shitty, manipulative person when you have to put up with them being a shitty, manipulative person regardless?
BPD CAN be treated and has a success rate of over 90%, there really isn't an excuse for it anymore.
BPD is an explanation but don't let it be used as a shield to defend bad behavior.
Oh no, I’m not saying it’s not manipulation, it most certainly is. We all manipulate to a degree, it’s just that people with BPD are really bad at it. Their crude strategies are incredibly troublesome and draining.
I was just making the point that their manipulation comes from a place of deep insecurity, not just because they are deliberately horrible people.
Be very careful. If you are a codependent, this will not end well. Maintain very strict boundaries.
The BPD rollercoaster is not a recommended ride at this amusement park called earth.
If you really want to know more, read ‘walking on eggshells’ and visit website groups for those who are in and/or survived a relationship with someone who is borderline.
BPD is comparable to being perpetually submerged in a pool of boiling water. I suspect that I have a cluster B disorder. I wouldn't inflict those attachment issues to my worst enemy. If I saw a borderline having an abandonment breakdown, I'd grimace in horror. Knowing the feeling of what they're going through in that moment.
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“When not in crisis” is the key phrase here. I love my partner with BPD to the ends of the universe. That doesn’t stop him from tearing me down and saying cruel hurtful things over some shit he made up in his own head and can’t be reasoned out of.
this was me for 18 years. What really drove me nuts was the projection. That and the walking on eggshells—because really, some kind of crisis was weekly.. Not just made up shit to justify a teardown—but accusations around shit she’d done and would then justify or deny or twist into me attacking her when all I was doing was pointing it out. I still feel bad for her a decade later, but man—one you fall in love with “not bpd;” theirs is nothing I miss about it.
This is specifically why I’m waiting to date until my symptoms are better. I don’t think it’s right for me to project my issues onto another person, particularly the people I love dearly. I have quiet BPD so my symptoms manifest differently from traditional to where I internalize a lot of my issues, but irregardless, I want what’s best for myself and my future partner. BPD typically goes into remission too, so there’s no excuse for someone to not acknowledge their actions or try to improve.
I think the capacity to “own it” and put any effort into managing it, is huge. Profoundly, if it’s a thing you can see or and put effort into, then most of the world can adapt too. It’s not like anyone is perfect. I look at what kept me coming back or burn out my own empathy or escalate in toxic ways, and I get glimpses of my own and that’s on me to manage in my later relationships. That one was both toxic and beyond repair tho, because only one of us could see or own anything, apologize or try to change. And projecting those things back was also crazy-making. She full on believes “all I do is blame her for everything” and all i was really doing was wondering what I could have said or done differently. Ahh well.
17 years. She drained me and ended up lea ingredients me... thank god.
Oh my... sorry but this just sounded so eerily familiar.. I think I did this same thing to my ex.. not intentionally.. but the things I'd believe were things like the whole thing was a setup and someone paid her to be with me and do horrible things to me, and she would just completely shut me out if I'd start saying things like that.. and idk why my brain comes to these conclusions.. it just maths everything all the time, and if something doesn't add up or make sense, then my brain will already have an answer solved using some math equations that I have no conscious understanding of. And so my ex always thought that I was doing horrible things to her and messing with her head by saying stuff like that, through my own hurt feelings and confusion.. I never could understand why she would think I was horrible to her when from my perspective, I basically dedicated my entire existence to being with her 24/7 and making sure she always had everything she could ever want or need.. and being there to listen to her when she needed someone to talk to.. that was always so important to me to be there for her, and it felt like it was all for nothing when she would have to basically 'break up with me' whenever she wanted to go 'do things' with other guys for free drugs... even though I always had the means to get her whatever she wanted 24/7/365. So her choosing to do that is what first keyed my brain off that maybe she was hurting me on purpose because she would always come back... So when I'd make a big deal about it and express how hurt I was, she would take back her apologies and turn cold to me, but it never occurred to me that the reason she was being cold towards me was because how horrible I would feel from what she would do basically made me absolutely unbearable to be around at all. And I'd be like that for weeks at a time. I just thought that the whole initial apology was fake because of how uncaring she would be after she would be completely drained from my behavior... oh man I just overshared like a mfer and I can't even follow where I'm going with that so I'm gonna hop off right here sorry about that 😅. Anyways, I clearly have some things to figure out myself and what you wrote like made me have several realizations I'd never had before. So I think I was trying to explain each one of my realizations in hopes maybe the information could help you in your situation or something like that. Anyways I'm done now sorry
List some of your realizations. Try to make sense of each one being more self aware. If you can afford it, find a good therapist, you may have to go through several therapist before you find one who will connect with you and help you grow. I spent years choosing challenging guys, not seeing the ways I create chaos and intensify the drama, which I swore I did not want in my relationships. Once I finally began to see my self, my childhood trauma, my bpd mother, my own bpd tendencies, my patterns—my choices and actions became more clear to me. My oversharing: I was awesome in so many ways, even confident, my lack of self worth and my only ever knowing unhealthy chaotic relationships rooted most of my drama—well, this was life changing for me. Every healthy relationship I have ever managed to experience was short lived because of me. I never realized how a good thing, a healthy relationship, scared me because all I have ever known was chaotic and difficult relationships. No wonder I self medicated and gave so much of myself to undeserving men. No wonder I would only “Love” the men I wasn’t likely ever going to marry. Good chemistry, good sex valued over responsible and selfless love. For so long, I felt like a fraud, so many seen me as the ideal woman/lover/partner. Although, I could be ideal; inside I didn’t feel worthy and I knew I was a hot mess in relationships. I hope these words help you or someone ✌🏼
quiet pwBPD here. (for those unfamiliar, that just basically means that I lash out at myself, not others.). Can I just tell you how relieved I am to read these comments when i saw the name of the sub I was expecting it just be a rant about how all people w BPD are evil and abusive as i see so often on Reddit and it’s just so refreshing to see the empathy displayed here especially as BPD is usually a trauma based illness. I just wanted to say thank you and I hope your having a great day.
Really sorry to hear that - do you have any idea where the attachment issues stemmed from? You don’t have to answer if that is too personal.
Being abandoned by my "mother" over and over again. She would leave for a week to do drugs, having no idea where she was and would randomly reappear. I was a child. This happened constantly. Also, choosing her drug dealing boyfriends over my own safety and comfort. I remember being in 3rd grade slowly walking back home from school, feeling literal depressed dread. The second i got home, I'd rush through my homework and bolt over to my friend David's house. It's not fun watching your "mother" being put into a headlock and being told to run and get help. It was a combination of that and verbal abuse, along with being in preschool and having the shit beat out of me by my "mother's" ex husband when she wasn't home. My "mother" saw the red streaks on my body and told him to "stop doing that" but stayed with him anyways. It was bad enough that he apologized to me about a few years ago. The absolute cold brick wall of emotional distance from my "mother" is ineffable. It leaves an attachment "vacuum" inside of you ready to fully consume someone willing to give you an emotional bond. Sever that or leave you after that and, well, you can imagine the hell ripped out of your body. It's the greatest high you ever feel just to be stripped of it is like a heroin withdrawal. I spent 3 days with a girl, only 3 days where she mirrored me and I let my guard down. I spent over half a year in boiling water over her basically dropping me suddenly right after I felt that heroine high. Can you imagine feeling the best thing you've ever felt & not even getting a sip more after tasting it for only an hour long movie? (Which was when it truly kicked in.) I was buzzing with oxytocin for months. As in, literally a buzzing feeling just from one movie. All of my mental health problems were cured during that feeling at the movie. I lost it, I thought I'd never be the same again. I almost killed myself, was using benzodiazepines to help, and tattooed my face because I had always wanted one and was certain I was going to suicide so it didn't matter. But I'm feeling better now, thankfully. It almost happened again. I didn't catch this one girl getting under my skin and my eyes dilated and I felt it coming back on. My brain feeling on fire again. I was terrified. I got out of that, came back, spoke to her again, she said she did like me but thought I was involved with my ex still so she got rid of the feelings and didn't want to date me. I left social media for 6 weeks and for the first time was cutting myself for "never being good enough." Came back and saw she didn't message me even once. That made it easier finally deleting her for my mental health after realizing the stress of not knowing if she was going to still pay attention to me wasnt going away. Saw it slip once when she hopped out of my story midway through and then I cut it off. I truly hope for the best for her though. Again, I feel better now. Better in a way I didn't think I'd find again. I avoid attachments now to keep myself sane and protect my happiness.
I’m sorry you experienced this. I wish I could take child you and make you feel safe. All the best to you, friend.
Thank you I really appreciate it
I really relate. Parental abuse, mother abandonment and all. I often wonder if I have BPD. I understand this feeling very well of being in boiling water. After my first love I couldn’t trust anyone and it took me 8 years to even consider a relationship again.
I'm sorry you went through it. Yeah I'm just done dating. I love myself more that now. I refuse to put myself in harms way again.
the cptsd sub welcomes you any time, even if you do feel a stability you've never felt! i love inspirational stories about healing.
Thank you sm
😔 Such a tragic story - but I’m glad you feel better now.
Thank you!
500ml water bottle. 2 teaspoons cayenne pepper powder. Mix. Shake and sip. Always shake, always sip. It isn't digestion that makes it work, it is maximum surface area exposure of capsaicin upon your skin. Anyhow about 5 minutes, under 10. You'll get 1 of 2 things. Endorphins release in body and mind/emotions. Endorphins release only in body. I'd say do it no more than every third day for consistency of euphoric release. It is a euphoric relaxation of the heart and mind. I suggest listening to some relaxing music while doing it. It is just maximizing the affect of spiciness. It wl taste gross. At least once you'll think " wtf...am I just drinking spicy water?". Also, I should probably look into that. That euphoric high you get is from abandonment trauma huh? I get that anytime I love someone, but I intentionally don't let such feelings arise in me anymore. I don't let the spark form. Only I fill myself. It's sad but yah. Took a long time to learn to not want anyone in a real way. Hm. Dunno if that makes sense. BIG EDIT. This is a sly why of producing endorphins. Endorphins are released via pain or adequate physical stress. Capsaicin is interpreted as pain by the body. Lol. It Is a sly way of getting a very important chemical release that helps is break out of our funk in troubling times. It also is why you may not feel pain at first when physical injury happens. I've used it both as s physical pain killer and as a way to "feel better" emotionally. < 3
I feel this through and through. Doing all I can to change my perspectives on old ideas. 🤍
Thank you for writing this out. I've only read about the disorder before, but that gives no real explanation of what it's actually like in the head of someone dealing with it. This was very enlightening, and I'm glad you're doing so much better than before. I was taught that its one of the hardest disorders to manage, and this really helps explain why.
Glad I could help. Just to emphasize the severity of it, I have thought about this many times: If someone said go through that again or surgerically remove your pinky toe, I'm giving the toe. I would much rather be temporarily thrown in a campfire than deal with that shit again. It literally feels like your brain is burning from cortisol. The thing about burns is, you can see them healing. There are few things as terrifying as not knowing if you're going to make it out of the pain you're feeling. Not knowing if you're stuck like that. Take the toe.
While I know I'm not at the same level, I definitely relate to being done with letting other people close. When you keep giving trust to people that just abuse it, it gets downright impossible to expect anything better in the future. I, too, would choose the toe.
As someone with it that is a good way to explain it.
I have BPD and one time my therapist compared it to being born with no skin. The same stimulus that might not even make a “normal” person bat an eye cuts deeply into our nerves and is insanely painful. We have no emotional protection
as a borderline thank you for being so validating 🥺
You're welcome and I'm sorry you suffer from it too but do know living a good life is something we can achieve. Never lose hope and do know time does heal. I truly believe that if I made it out of what I made it out of, face tattoo as a survival badge, I have confidence that others can too. Hang in there your life is worth it, you are worth it, find magic in memories, in moments, in the small things. When and where you can ♡
The abandonment has gotten to a point where when my brother died recently, I tried to comfort my SIL by telling her "at least he didn't just leave because he doesn't love us anymore" apparently that's not as helpful as I thought it was
“Comparable to being perpetually submerged in water” hit home for me. I don’t think people understand that it’s not only mental draining but physically painful too
That last part is something I think about often. I even told my friend, people can see wounds and have an idea. But they can't see ours. I'm also a diagnosed bipolar. I'm very proud of myself for making it this far.
I was diagnosed with BPD in my early 20s. I also just had a baby so I’m dealing with PPD as well. It’s tough. But I keep going for my girls
It’s a fine line though. Yes, I have compassion for them but I still can’t have that allow me to let my guard down. Regardless why they are manipulative doesn’t have anything to do with how potentially hurtful their manipulation can be. Now, some have put in the work and keep manipulation down considerably. That makes keeping and maintaining boundaries much easier. However, no level of empathy should determine where those boundaries are. I also have compassion for narcissists. They too feel like shit about themselves and filled with insecurities too. Again, the boundaries need to be the same.
Yep, boundaries are the key. People with BPD need others to model healthy boundaries for them, so addressing it as such can be helpful and healing. They may react negatively, but maintaining healthy consistent boundaries will help them in the long run, even if it seems to hurt them in the short term.
as a person who has bpd (although i am less and less identifying with the symptoms as traits inherent to me and as ive been on my healing process i sometimes dont identify with some of the traits at all) who has primarily been in relationships with other mentally ill people/ people who have bpd as well, i finally hit a wall for myself where i couldn’t justify my behaviors because i had been on the receiving end of them so many times where i would be compassionate and understanding because i knew what it was like and how they were feeling. i knew that they weren’t doing it because they didn’t love me or didn’t care or that their primary aim was to hurt me. i knew and sometimes wrestle with even now - knowing deeply that someone i loved so much couldn’t stop hurting me or engaging in psychological abuse tactics with me because it was their best, unskillful attempt at reaching me and trying to feel heard or not alone. but as hard as i or anyone could try, there isn’t a way to fill that void unless you are willing to embark on that journey and meet your own pain. for me, i felt forced to confront all of my people pleasing behaviors (my bpd was always more internalized although i did still lash out occasionally) and i had moved through some of the most emotionally excrutiating years of my life when my relationship with two people i loved very much (and who both had bpd) exploded. to me it was so clear that their codependency was toxic, dysfunctional and abusive, but i held out hope that we could heal together if we just learned the tools and kept trying. i was really hurt and felt both abandoned and betrayed while i was being split on and felt like their relationships to me were entirely fabricated and they didn’t know me at all. it was finally this big role reversal for me where i had primarily been in relationships where i was the pursuer and the ‘needy’ one and moving really unconsciously and unskillfully. but this time, i was on the receiving end of verbal and psychological abuse because this person i loved very much saw me as a threat because i stopped giving into appeasing them whenever they were unhappy because they saw that as evidence that i cared and more and more i was seeing that as a sign that i wasnt in an autonomous relationship. i wanted things to get better and more healthy *because* i cared about the relationship, not because i wanted to hurt them. it was a mirror for me in seeing how much i normalized codependency and was engaging in it myself as a balm for my own attachment wounding. my grief took me through a long and long time coming healing arc of really sitting with what was inside me and self education on what therapy modalities are actually effective in general but also especially for people with cluster b disorders, ocd, cptsd, and learning how to cultivate habits and rewire/ deepen my relationship with my body where my trauma was really stored. i had to learn that just because i can have compassion and understanding for someone else’s destructive behaviors and even learn new skills in trying to meet them that i also was allowed to have boundaries and not tolerate those behaviors because they deeply affected me, and also ultimately because i wouldnt tolerate them from others i also couldnt tolerate them from myself. i resolved to learn how to communicate my needs and know my needs and learn how to express myself in relationships and not just hold onto my volatile feelings until i exploded. i needed to learn how to develop my capacity for rejection or perceived abandonment and betrayal and learn how to be curious and ask questions and challenge the black and white thinking that no one cares or that it just made sense that people left or disregarded me. its life work and an ongoing process, but even just a year of deepening and developing my desire to attend to my inner world and hurt parts has made a huge difference. its been a little over two years since my relationship that triggered all of this ended (with efforts to try to fix things over the course of that year really going south) and. i am definitely *not* all recovered or something by any means. but holding myself accountable to my own growth is possible. just because the severity of the pain i feel and have felt was immense - doesn’t mean how i treated people i have hurt in the past was okay. it was my best unskilled attempt at communicating, and i could learn and get better. and i did, and i keep going and trying again and seeing what works. other people with bpd can too. maybe all of this was my way of proving to myself that i didnt deserve to be treated the way i was - i dont know. but growing is possible and recognizing where you messed up and actually working on yourself so people don’t have to make excuses for your behavior is possible too. sometimes the motivation is rock bottom, but hey. edit: fixed a grammar mistake for legibility
I read this twice, and there is no way known I can articulate how much I appreciate you writing this. Our backgrounds are different, but we share a common thread with those three letters - although I agree with what you also said, that I feel less and less identified by them. My BPD has been, something. There are times I look back on my younger self, and want to hug him (although he wouldn’t like it) - and say “it’s okay, dig a little deeper, and you’ll find what you need to heal”. The way you speak of healing and self discovery, I beyond relate to. Thank you, for writing this. If you’d be up for it, I’d be happy to chat.
Every. single. person. on this planet. has a valid explanation for their misbehavior. That never makes it justified. Threatening suicide is in the top 3 worst things you can do to another human being. I have zero tolerance.
I agree people have to take responsibility for their behaviours, but people with cluster B personality disorders do not really know they have a disorder - all personality disorders are ego-syntonic. You can make a case they should go to therapy, but they are also in denial about their disorder - so it’s very difficult for some of them to get better.
I have BPD and I’m painfully hyper aware of my issues and my disorder. It quite literally eats you from the inside out. There’s no one who absolutely hates themselves more than someone who has BPD.
Heavy on the last part. I’ll never forget the dread I felt after the diagnosis. And since then it’s like this guilt that is carried with me that just lingers. It’s awful 😞
My ex threatened suicide a number of times, she said she'd abandon her kids and go kill herself. Leaving me in the house with her kids, from a different father I should add. I called her bluff and she changed her tune. Lost all respect after that. Stupidly stayed, and she upped her game. When I tried to go home, and she wanted me to stay. She battered her arm, which already had issues, off the kitchen counter, causing intense pain for her. Being a good partner I had to return. Stupid me. Is this bpd ?
With all due respect to actual diagnoses of BPD, Im entering the chat to mention that women are often misdiagnosed with BPD when in fact its Autism with high masking tendencies. I think no one needs sympathy, they need to be seen for their humanity regardless of labels.
Perhaps sympathy was not the best word then. I wrote out that post quite fast and perhaps should have chosen my words more carefully. The definition of sympathy here is ‘understanding between people; common feeling’. I didn’t know about the misdiagnosis of BPD that could be masked autism. Thank you for the information.
No worries, I appreciate you being open for discussion. Sympathy to me means people watch from outside and there’s pity involved. The BPD experience is chronic emptiness. Staying alive while not having a reason to. No way they can tolerate sympathy alone. Compassion, empathy yes. Empathy means I don’t have to have walked in your shoes to see your experience as valid and meaningful. That’s what BPD wants and needs.
Yes, great points. When I was in training there was a really good analogy I was told about sympathy and empathy. If someone is down the bottom of a well, sympathy is looking down shouting to them that you understand their pain, but empathy is going down and sitting with them and their pain. And yes, sympathy can connote pity, and pity is kind of looking down on people. Nietzsche actually said pity was a form of contempt 😬 Thanks again for your insights 👍🏻
I have a borderline ex. I didn’t know what bpd was (always assumed it stood for bi polar) and when we split it seemed like this big scary narcissist thing (based off some evidence I think she might of been comorbid covert npd if that matters). I mean some of the things this person did were truly awful, traumatic and made little to no sense, which only made my own healing more difficult. However the more I learned about bpd, the more I felt bad for her, like bpd has to truly suck and she’s just stuck being like that. I mean she self harms, stays with guys who have don’t do basic things for her, she talked about one of her exes who like violated her consent a lot and she didn’t even realize it was a consent violation, she throws away guys that put the effort into building a real relationship with her because she needs the excitement of something new and the easiest way to forget her abandonment issues is to abandon, has a need for attention to the point that she does things like posts pictures of her getting gang banged on the internet. Doesn’t sound like a great life.
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Yeah so I never had any of that. In my situation I was in a poly relationship with her. Her other partner was pretty pathetic. Like 40 something year old unemployed guy. I think they started dating when he was 38 and she was 24 give or take a year. He brought her around dungeons and did some really messed up things to her, degrading things like cain her boobs in front of an audience (we're talking like black and blue marks). Its odd, for the two years I was with her she rarely ever said a good thing about him, it was a lot of bad things. It got to the point where I was like she's either not telling the truth or this guy is who I think he is. It's pretty sad because looking back on it he 100% groomed her, I mean what grown man takes a girl fresh out of college to a dungeon and does shit like that. I don't know if they're still together or if she figured it out, but i imagine if she did figure it out I'd get hoovered. Live and learn tho right? Sorry you went through that though. Its a completely shattering experience most people don't understand unless they went through it.
I was raised by a BPD mother and, almost inevitably, married a woman with BPD. I lost almost 20 years to lies, manufactured drama, suicide threats, rage, and manipulation. I escaped 10 years ago, but I doubt I'll ever truly heal from the chaos. I don't hate my ex, and I genuinely hope that she can find some version of peace. That said, I am grateful, every day of my life, that I never have to interact with her again. I now approach the whole cluster B issue with a different perspective. I call it "The vicious Three Legged Dog." I can feel compassion. I can feel sorrow for their situation, but I'll be fucked if I'll get close enough to pet them.
Most abusers are just unwell and have emotional issues to work out Most manipulators are also just trying to get their needs met in a male-adaptive way If we should have empathy for BPD then we should also have empathy for NPD or abusers who come from abusive households or literally most abusive people who aren’t actual psychopaths The idea is that you need to work on your shit and that having trauma doesnt excuse you from abusing others I was borderline abusive to my kids because I had untreated postpartum anxiety and childhood trauma. I had compassion for myself in admitting I was being abusive, its tough having no support and a severely disabled kid with two teens to manage as well. Doesnt change the fact that it was damaging to my children and my responsibility to fix and it didnt negate the idea that I needed to make amends with my children and do what I could to help them after I had taken the time to get myself better. I am still doing all I can to help them for what they went through having a mentally ill mother, I would never expect them to have empathy for me in this instance. They have always been good to me, it is my responsibility to show empathy for them for what I put them through
If you make the (bad) decision to engage just be careful, codependency is a very real thing.
Yes, it is a way to get their needs met, but it sometimes results in them doing extremely abusive things to other people and yes, that includes manipulation. Just because you can understand why they do it doesn't mean you should tolerate it. I try to avoid people with BPD because they cause a lot of stress and toxicity in the lives of people around them. That's why I usually say they need to spend many years in therapy before they have significant relationships, because they're not good for the people around them.
Oh I completely agree - I’ve worked clinically with several BPD clients and their behaviour was outrageous. The most difficult clients you can work with. I’m not saying their behaviour should be tolerated, it was just a post to make people aware of the deep insecurity and pain that underpins their troublesome behaviour.
The problem is they externalize their inner torment and cause permanent damage and epigenetic trauma to their victims, and innocent bystander. I have not met a single bpd or npd who was able to be consistent in maintaining active recovery they end up slipping and doing vile things to those they claim to love the most. I hope there will be advancements in the future to actually make them safe to associate with, I had a horrible tragic childhood but I never chose to externalize my suffering or lost the ability to self assess. I find this rhetoric to pity them and have empathy alarming because people reading this may be convinced to stay with their pd partners because they feel compassion for them and they love them despite their evil tendencies even if they come from a place of childhood wounding, they are still vile and cruel when they are triggered, I have permanent physical and mental scars from these broken dangerous arrested development selfish people. It’s not worth it y’all you deserve a healthy adult relationship. Go to therapy to address whatever codependency and weak boundaries let you get sucked in by them and live and be free of toxicity. Life is too short to be a pseudo parent for broken people who refuse or are incapable to do the work to heal and grow.
I so agree with this.
Thank you for working with BPD clients, not everyone takes them. I even knew a practitioner who said he didn't because "Fuck those people, they're terrible people"
Yes, my supervisor advised against it too. They consider it too hard work, too professionally dangerous. But I found it incredibly rewarding and probably grew as much as my client.
Maybe one day my exwife will meet someone like you. I had to cut her off 4 years ago, the abuse was going to kill me. She hurts everyone around her and has been diagnosed with bipolar and bpd by 4 different doctors but still denies it. Knowing what she went through made me sympathetic... but she just used that against me. It's hard knowing that they have been damaged but at some point you have to judge people on their actions.
That sounds like a painful experience. I'm glad you've protected yourself. I also hope she can admit her problems and find a compassionate therapist
Wow, that seems extreme. But yeah, there's a reason most therapists don't want them or narcissists as clients. I also sort of think a lot of therapists just aren't willing to put that kind of work in for little reward (who can blame them?) Unless the client is wealthy, they're going to be very difficult and it likely won't pay off.
I agree. Sounds like OP is trying to justify their toxic partner’s (or their own) emotionally abusive actions. All of what OP described IS emotional abuse, no matter what kind of personality disorder the abuser has.
Yes, it's very severe emotional abuse and it's not okay to let it go. We all have needs but getting your needs met like that requires pushback because other people have needs as well. I don't like this new trend of trying to romanticize people with BPD. It's still a very severe disorder when it results in someone acting this way.
Perhaps you are explaining WHY they manipulate, but that doesn't mean it's not manipulation. That doesn't mean it's not toxic for people exposed to it.
People with BPD don’t manipulate others to control them or benefit from it; it’s more of a subconscious behavior from emptiness in some emotional area. That’s just my guess though from what I’ve seen, I had an ex girlfriend with BPD and it just seemed like when she did try and manipulate me, it was either to make sure I don’t leave her (she had abandonment issues) or it was to make sure she wasn’t going to be hurt it someway. It was sad but toxic for me personally so I couldn’t stay with her and watch her drown anymore but I can’t fix anyone so I had to make a choice for me.
I'm a retired therapist, and you nailed it. And any of you licensed mental health practitioners who refuse to work with people with BPD, you don't belong in the business. Folks with BPD who are refused treatment based on this diagnosis, please report these doctors, nurses, and therapists to their licensing boards.
and i’m a current psychotherapist. you’re telling me the 1st year licensees or interns should be given patients with ptsd with severe dissociative symptoms? strongly disagree. maybe a different topic, but i actually think this is a big problem in the field. no, not every clinician is equally qualified, educated, or adept to the same level in every diagnosis, and patients should be aware of this- for their sake, because it is our job to make sure they get the care that they deserve, even if that means referring out for HLOC. same can be said for any PD. there are clinicians who frankly are not educated enough and/or do not have the experience to fulfill our duty for adequate care. i find it dangerous and harmful to suggest otherwise, specifically those who are in need of adequate care. i can’t tell you the amount of times i witnessed this firsthand working in nonprofit CMCs. it’s unprofessional and a disservice to the people who arguably need consistent specialized treatment the most. Unless the clinician is under seriously stellar supervision- absolutely not. this is precisely why i am so protective of my patients who are from more vulnerable populations. they tend to be the ones that minimal experience clinicians use to “try xyz diagnosis out” and practice a poorly understood modality they only read about. this is actually a very well known measure within our ethics guidelines. can we blame the equity of our masters/clinical programs ? maybe. lack of adequate supervision? sure. i would. but we all know at least 1/3rd of what we learn is on our own accord post grad. and that’s not a given. there are clinicians out here claiming to effectively treat BPD fully unaware of the research behind treatment efficacy. it is absolutely more harmful to the patient than not. refer out.
Thank you for this post! I've been reading so much negativity coming from Reddit about BPD. Being somebody who has BPD it does not feel good, pretty triggering tbh. This one was really nice to read though.
My husband is diagnosed BPD, along with 4 other diagnoses. We have been together for 32 years and we deeply and truly love each other. It's not always been easy, but it's worth it. There are people out there who will understand you, and why you do and say certain things and will love you through it.
Two of my best (but also worst) GFs have it. I don’t look down on women with it. I didn’t know much about it with the first, but I was able to be much more sympathetic, patient, and provide validation for the second. That relationship was stable for about 2 years because of that. Also, she was pretty self-aware and would accept constructive criticism regarding her thoughts and decisions. Ultimately, she has major trust issues and at some point split, demonized, and then cheated. My patience and understanding evaporated pretty quickly when I realized what she was doing, especially after she started stonewalling about this stuff. Still, I try to remind myself that it’s not entirely her fault. So, I don’t just think of her as another untrustworthy ex. Now if a woman has BPD and isn’t willing to admit to or work on it, I don’t want anything to do with her. I don’t need that kind of chaos, drama, and negativity in my life. We really shouldn’t demonize people with a mental illness or disorder. We’ve all got something and none of us want to be put in a category because of it. It’s still our responsibility to take care of ourselves and not inflict our problems on others.
Thank you for not demonizing people who struggle with mental illness. There is nothing worse than already hating yourself, constantly feeling guilt, shame, embarrassment, and depression in a constant rapid cycle, struggling with rumination or intrusive thoughts, dissociating, and then to have someone throw it back in your face about how you are such an awful person and a psychopath for struggling with mental illness. It's never an excuse for actions and behaviors, but sometimes mentally ill people don't realize what they are doing because their reality is so different. A little compassion for people goes a very long way. You are a very good person.
I had such a traumatic childhood because of my BPD mom. And I love her and understand the WHY of her behavior. That doesn't make any of what I went through okay. Abuse is still abuse. And you can rephrase and reframe the word manipulation any way you like, but at the end of the day, you can call a turd a rose, but it's still gonna smell bad.
It's still manipulation. Most manipulation stems from one insecurity or another.
My ex ex gf is diagnosed w bpd and then I strongly suspect my subsequent gf after her had npd I would describe them as extremely similar personality types, both having like this way of coming across really sweet and innocent, the main difference was my ex w bpd hated herself and the other one I suspect npd was obsessed with herself The npd one was also a lot more manipulative and calculated in her manipulation, so interestingly despite npd being 8 years younger than bpd I would say bpd is a lot more innocent (23 and 31 today) Both loved to be in control of everything at all times and both did the voluntary over sharing of red flags up front that only people on this spectrum seem to do
Yea, having bpd sucks, but I'm not going to pretend we are good people either. I agree with your point and living with bpd is torture but I also understand why people can't or don't want to handle our bullshit.
If someone with BPD isn’t in active therapy, classes and groups then they are dangerous and cannot be trusted. Under no circumstances let them into your life or near your loved ones.
Unfortunately there is a lot of truth to that. Read some of the comments here, a guy with BPD pretty much agreed with what you said. This is a terrible affliction though, these people are ill and find it almost impossible to control their destructive behaviours. I really hope they get the help they need.
My boyfriend took off with no explanation last night and stole my phone. I called him repeatedly for 18 hours. Gave up and had the cops get it from him. He said he didn't know why he did it. Last week he changed his relationship status to engaged to some random girl. Said he did it to see if I cared. Not sure if I will date another person with BPD again.
Really sorry to hear that. I’m sure it’s incredibly difficult to date someone with BPD.
First and last time...lasted two months... multiple arguments over very simple human respect.
idk. i have BPD and before treatment i was a literal menace to society and basically a relationship terrorist. yea, it was due to my mental illness, but it shouldn’t be excused. there are a lot of people who have this disorder but are not diagnosed and do not wish to be diagnosed and we just label them as assholes. its painfully ironic though because all i want is to be close to people and i know my behaviors are doing everything to keep people away. i lost all of my relationships and spent six months in a mental health facility. i was an alcoholic and being reckless and impulsive. didn’t go to work, yelled at customer service reps, being obnoxious on public transit, etc. i was a true asshole. i got medicated and focused on myself. i’m not perfect but i have some close friends and i might even be ready to date after the three years since my last relationship.
Glad you got help. And yes, it is ironic that when you desperately want connection and affection you can behave in ways that drive people away. Self awareness is the way out of this - keep it up and well done 👍🏻
Having an excess of sympathy for a cluster-B has its own word: codependent
Codependents often like the feeling of being needed and show some narcissistic traits too.
True, my stepmom is one.
‘’Cluster B Milkshake’’ on youtube pointed this out and it made me self aware of my issues.
This! And know how I know? That was ME! I was codependent! Not anymore though. Oh heeeeelllllll no.
I’m still on my way out, unfortunately…
I have borderline avoidant personality disorder, it's not about me but the way that is environmentally surrounding i am not sure of borderline disorders there are variations of such and a scope of many types, I recognize my weakness and strive to confront
If a person is untreated with this I won't even have them in my life..
Everyone can be toxic. Some personality traits or PTSD or live experiences can make it even more so! Like have a bad relationship or being insecure can make you a bad partner. Same goes for adhd, and cluster B. Cluster b deff gets a bad wrap. It's a lot harder for them. Buuut. They are in charge of themselves. If they are not actively working on themselves to be better and not hurt others- they need to fuck off. I was diagnosed with bipolar, and I realized, while it's not my fault I never asked for it, jt can cause a lot of issues for me and those around me. I need to make sure I'm in therapy, on meds and sleep. Other wise.... I don't deserve shit. But even then, not everyone can handle me. Mostly my adhd symptoms. And that's ok. I can't handle people who need constant reassurance. Nothing wrong with me or them.
They can be very abusive, but they change their behaviors with professional help. It takes a lot of time, work, and patience for the person with bpd and their loved ones. People with bpd are capable of being in a loving relationship.
There is definitely a social component missing in those with BPD, but it isn’t an excuse. We all have things we must overcome.
Manipulation is manipulation. There is no justification for it or anything that makes it okay or sympathetic.
my mate has this allegedly and he just skitzes out at the tiniest argument or debate lmao impossible to chill with him
All manipulation is a desperate attempt to get needs met. If people had the patience and compassion to wait they wouldnt need to manipulate.
Manipulation is a strategy. People with BPD have the strategy of a four year old.
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Mate, I can relate. I am terrified of abandonment too and I ruined an 18 year marriage by my provocative draining behaviour. It’s almost like I ‘beat her to the punch’. But there was no fight. It was all in my head. Fear of abandonment is BPD is so amplified that I don’t think a lot of people can relate. Im glad you’re in therapy though and I hope things work out 👍🏻
It’s tough but there’s somebody for everyone. I have dated or been married to 3 people with bpd. It is literally attractive to me without even knowing that before hand. Just stay positive, go to therapy and make sure to use the tools you learn so you don’t spiral or get destructive to the people close to you
It’s hard to describe how bad it feels to have it. Like, the physical pain aspect of it. I am numb to a lot of physical harm like bruises, cuts, etc, but being anxious *hurts* my chest. I feel like I can’t breathe when I’m highly emotional, I get so shaky I’m unable to drive or function, it’s exhausting to have your nervous system constantly firing. I sleep for 16 hours a day sometimes and 4 others because it’s impossible to sleep with my heart beating so fast. I’m lucky to have a very passive partner who won’t enable me but I wouldn’t wish this disorder on my worst enemy. (I have never threatened self harm or anything of that sort and have overcome most “manipulative” tendencies before my current one.)
You're right. People with BPD often struggle with emotional regulation and intense fear of abandonment. Their behaviors, while intense, often stem from a place of deep-seated insecurity and a need for connection. Here's a short take on BPD: * **Emotional Dysregulation:** Difficulty managing emotions, leading to intense mood swings, anger, or sadness. * **Unstable Relationships:** BPD can make it hard to maintain healthy relationships due to fear of abandonment and turbulent emotions. * **Fear of Abandonment:** People with BPD may go to great lengths to avoid perceived abandonment, even resorting to manipulation. * **Impulsive Behaviors:** BPD can lead to risky or impulsive behaviors like substance abuse, self-harm, or reckless spending.
Great, thanks ☺️ Add in splitting as well. That is a very intense one for relationships. Idealisation and denigration. People are split in a black and white way so they are either the best person ever or the devil.
Wow! I have severe abandonment issues from childhood. My mom would constantly leave me and my sisters alone for days sometimes weeks while she went out and got her fix. We would literally go from door to door asking for food bc we didn't have any. Mind you I'm not even 6 and my oldest sister was 8. I would steal money out of my mom's purse so I could go to the laundry mat 1 1/2 miles from my house to get food from the vending machine. Thank god for the woman who called cps. I was taken from my mom and placed with my nanny which is my dad's mom. I had no idea who they were because I never met them. After 1 head I was placed with my dad but after completing a school head he took me back to my nanny's and dropped me off in the middle of the night. I tried for years and years to have a relationship with my dad but he disowned me because my husband is black and I'm white. He passed away in 2022 from Covid. I've attempted suicide 4 times within the last few years. I've grown a bunch but since I have went through so much I also have suffered a great deal mentally.
Really sorry to hear about the suicide attempts. What an awful experience to go through.
“Just a desperate unskilled attempt” Why does nobody think it’s a problem? Doesn’t everyone else also need to get their needs met? Why do some people get to throw a hissy fit, treat people like shit, intentionally manipulate people and then say it’s “just ‘manipulation’ “ as if because you struggle it’s nbd? My ex who had BPD was just SO unbelievably selfish that he couldn’t grasp that spreading misery to me and treating me like crap lying and manipulating was not only not helping him get his needs met but was also ruining my life?? What gives him that right? He needs to stick his ass in therapy and stay there. I personally have bipolar. I’ve been sticking to meds and trying new ones until I got it right for years. I’ve stuck with therapy for *years* Why shouldn’t he have done those things? I have taken accountability for the fact that if I don’t take care of my problems not only is it bad for me but it also hurts the people who love me. Why do (some) people with BPD not care? This is why the disorder has such a horrible reputation because so many people simply want to say oh I have a mental health problem it’s not my fault. Guess what? Your actions are still your fault just like mine are. It’s the not caring part that’s sick and twisted.
I have a friend that I'm now suspecting has BPD. They are frustrated with their work and living situation and it's been insane. They were talking about killing themselves for over a week. Cold shoulders, talking about how no one cares if they live or die - that they're going to be homeless ( they have substantial savings) it's constant. It's becoming apparent that they want me to " fix it," but it's nothing I can fix. Now I've been distancing myself for my own sanity and it's further proof to them that I don't care.
I dated a girl and didn't know what BPD was. One day I came across it mentioned and looked it up. Bingo! It all just immediately clicked. She fit almost every single symptom. Especially the fits of rage over seemingly small things.
Wouldn’t wish a GF with BPD on my worst enemy 😔
Working with BPD clients, they have said they wouldn’t wish this disorder on their worst enemy. So everyone is affected by this condition.
Being manipulative, even to get your emotional needs met, is still scummy. People with bpd are not children, and need to be held to the same standard of accountability as any other adult, when it comes to abusive behaviors.
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I dated someone with BPD...two months felt like 8 exhausting years. It was emotionally exhausting and yes she was quite manipulative. Was it solely out of desperation, insecurity, blah blah...yes likely so? I don't care, manipulation is manipulation regardless of the reason. I went into the relationship having sympathy I came out still with sympathy but knowing that it takes a special person to be with someone who has bpd. Maybe it was just her but she was just SO MUCH and was going to destroy my mental health. The projection, blaming, insecurity, mood swings...holy shit.
Yeah, I’ve heard this from a lot of people. You get ‘compassion fatigue’. Objectively you can see they might be a decent person just damaged, but they damage you so much that… well, you know.
Absolutely. Compassion fatigue is currently something I suffer from. She was a wonderful girl when she was at base level. Super beautiful too. Smart, appeared to be successful...I had a hard time understanding why she was single until I realized why. I wish I were strong enough to show her something different than what she's used to but I had to look out for my own well being. I hope she got help.
It’s good you can say kind things about her and keep your objectivity about this. Read some of the comments here - people can end up holding a lot of anger and resentment.
People are more than their mental health and we are all human. Don't get me wrong though, it took me a good minute to calm down and be able to look at the situation objectively.
its not just fatigue, its the constant reward of more abuse and accusations for trying your damnedest. i hope my ex finally got the help she needs, but very thankful to be past that chapter. she was bad to me but wasnt bad at her core.
This is also true. No one should stand for abuse, ever. A lot of times these situations do turn into exactly that. Abuse.
BPD is a painful way to live.
Yes, agreed. The manipulation isn't necessarily motivated by material or predatory motivations, as would be the case with someone with ASPD.
thank you for this. there have been times i have resorted to the tactics you mentioned in the midst of really bad episodes and thought that i am really a nasty person with bad intentions but i know i just love way too hard and everything gets messy … its pure desperation and nothing else , the idea of manipulation means some pre-calculation is involved right… anyway thank you for this deeply compassionate comment , it touched me
No problem 😌 You have just made me think actually. BPD ‘manipulation’ is unskilled because it’s not premeditated, as you say. That explains it. If it was premeditated it would be more sophisticated, but it’s born out of impulsive desperation. Wow. Great insight. Thanks!
That seems important. The lack of premeditation, or the reactive nature of it.
Pretty sure my dad has bpd, he was a fantastic supportive dad who really cared, but any hint of independence or ‘giving lip’ and violent rage sometimes with extreme violence would come out of nowhere. Then he would be all sweet and pretend it never happened. I have disorganised attachment and cptsd, so I really understand the feelings people with bpd have but I do not get into a rage and hurt people. Bpd and npd are just trying to get their needs met But their lack accountability and inability to learn from their mistakes. Which makes relationships harmful to everyone who loves them.
Yeah, it’s tragic really. It’s hard to feel sympathy with someone who has hurt you, and it’s complicated trying to work out if the person with BPD, NPD or whatever is responsible for their actions. They need help, but being in denial means they don’t see there is a problem, and then there is no motivation to find a solution. Some do, and they have shared their stories on this post. And I’ve massive respect that they are addressing their issues. All cluster B disorders are disastrous for everyone concerned.
I suspect I have BPD. My partner of 2 years has meant the world to me. However, I have hurt him far too much where I have hurt his self esteem. I didn’t mean to say things in the moment, I often tell myself don’t say it don’t say it but can’t seem to help it. He grew resentment towards me and finally left. I miss them so much and wish I could have solved my issues sooner. Now I’m left to deal with the guilt and shame that I hurt someone I truly love so much. I wish I could go back in time and change that. Ik leaving me was the best decision for them in terms of their own mental health.
I think my ex has BPD. I was so clueless, I wish I could have been a better boyfriend but I had no idea. I think she realized she had it as well during our messy break up. I feel guilty at times but my mental health was suffering trying to keep us together. Any tips with regards with dating someone who could possibly have it?
I have little sympathy for bpd. I have tons of empathy for their childhood, I have zero patience for the self created drama and chaos they choose to create as adults. As well as for using their diagnos as an excuse for all the harm they cause. Often they refuse to do therapy
This, this 100%. My worst BPD breakdowns with “bad behavior” were all a direct result of my ex abusing me or manipulating me *first.* She’d accuse me of being another manipulative borderline, when the only time I would do any of those behaviors is when she spent hours literally hand crafting a series of triggers. The breakdowns I had after her were all straight, pure panic. Threatening myself was, in my mind at the time, the literal only thing I could do because it felt like nothing else showed how serious I was about how badly I was panicking.
Yea it's true, I have bpd and have tried my best to approach every situation with the upmost cognitive flexibility so that I can change my personality but people who have no clue what bpd is will confidently say it's a form of narcissism which really made me think I was a narcissist for a while. I know people will see bpd and think that I'm trying to garner sympathy but I'm not. Although I have bpd there isn't someone that I've really hurt since I was very young like 13 years old.
It’s great you have that awareness and know you have to be aware of your behavioural patterns. I mean, we all have to in a way, we go into social situations/relationships and have to conduct ourselves in an appropriate way, it’s just harder for some people.
Yeah it still sucks to be dating someone with it. Wouldn’t want to have anyone else ever go through that. While not from bad intention it’s still manipulative and sucks to be stuck in.
Refusing to take responsibility for their actions and perpetually playing the victim are also a symptoms of BPD
Everybody has a seemingly valid reason for their poor behavior. Every abuser, manipulator, etc is trying to get their needs/wants met in an unproductive way. If we should have sympathy for people with BPD, there's no reason that sympathy shouldn't extend to narcissists or other abusers. I have none left to give. Abuse is still abuse. My last long-term ex was what I call a "walking cluster b platter". I saw a lot of BPD traits, but she was diagnosed with NPD and ASPD. Her manipulation was far from unskilled and she had moments of admitting to exactly what she did and why with no remorse. Imagine Alex Forrest from Fatal Attraction (who my ex completely sympathized with by the way), Nellie Oleson from Little House on the Prairie, and Anna Delvey from Inventing Anna rolled into one person and you have my ex. Anyone who comes across her would change their tune on sympathy and "unskilled attempts".
BPD also makes people vulnerable to manipulation when they swing from hate back to love
That’s a good point. The splitting. From denigration to idealisation. I’d never thought of that.
cPTSD and BPD here. Currently doing EMDR with my therapist. I’m finding as we “process” each of my traumas thru EMDR, that my reactivity, my BPD, lessens. The key is realizing that I’m triggered and removing my self from the situation to go deal with my feelings.
‘The truth sets you free - but not before it’s done with you’ All the best 👍🏻
Bpd is also a spectrum. Ppl can have mild bpd and feel fairly calm most of the time then there are people who have severe bpd who can become violent and then everything in between. Also everyone is on a different journey, lots of people going to therapy or doing workbooks to try to help themselves and some people who have no idea they even have it or can't afford to get help.
I have BPD and this feels very accurate. I honestly felt like I was on fire all of the time when I was out of control. I'm very open about how I think I was a genuinely horrific person and I would never blame anyone who had to deal with me if they just deeply hate me for how I was. It took so much work and therapy, years upon years of just identifying the mass amount of toxic traits in me and then realizing I really could change them. I still work every single day to make sure I'm being considerate and understanding of others. It's extremely important to me now to not upset others or make people uncomfortable. That wasn't who I was, and it wasn't who I wanted to keep being. Having the diagnosis really helped. Knowing there was a reason I was so awful made me confront the line between being traumatized and being an asshole.
That’s amazing. The opposite of acting in bad faith. I know how difficult it is to deal with BPD symptoms. It shows people can change and control personality disorders if they’re motivated enough. All the best 👍🏻
Thank you, honestly I just really appreciate your compassion on the topic. I try very hard to show people that it's just another way of being out of control, hell some people with BPD (me included) have actual delusions and reality breaks much like schizophrenia! But having the tools and the motivation to *want* to use them goes such a long way. I'm much more lucky than the average person who gets a BPD diagnosis, though. I have to give credit to the fact that I've been in therapy since I was four years old (for something unrelated) and they were able to identify when I started showing more intense mental illnesses. I got early intervention and started building tools before I was even technically being looked at for the BPD diagnosis. I had a hard time, and did indeed reject help for a while (teen years, you think you know it all right?), but having that basis in therapy led me back on track faster than most BPD sufferers. It pains me to know that there are people out there who are so deeply not okay and don't even realize there's something actually wrong with them.
Yes, a lot of people are suffering because they don’t have a diagnosis or know there is something wrong with the way they perceive themselves and other people. Often these people (if female) are just labelled ‘bunny boilers’ - and I did read somewhere that the character Glenn Close played in the film Fatal Attraction was scripted as having BPD. I practiced as a psychoanalyst for over 10 years and worked with a few BPD clients. Yes, they can be challenging, idealising you one minute and denigrating you the next - threatening to harm themselves if you didn’t see them immediately etc.. but it was all part of this terrible disorder. It was ultimately immensely rewarding to work with these clients and see them gradually improve. Especially when they were as motivated and committed to change as you obviously are.
I’m so sorry for the events you’ve lived through that may have caused this diagnosis. And I have to say that I’m so proud of you for the hard work you’ve put into yourself! My best friend is borderline and became self aware a couple of years ago. She’s really struggling with it along with self sabotaging behaviours, but she’ll still do what she can to be there for me when I’ve needed her. I will always be there when she needs me, too! She’s fiercely loving, and an absolute best friend. I hate the stigma you guys face. I wish the absolute best for you!
Wait until you people realize NPD is also just an unconscious defense mechanism to get your needs met
People with BPD, the driving force for them is fear of being abandoned. When people remember this, you can easily deconstruct why they do everything from a place of fear and not from a place to hurt others in purpose. This doesn’t excuse the ones who intentionally are consciously aware of this and utilize it to do things that are harmful, it’s a very, very, very, very tiny pool of people who most likely have a wrong diagnosis and are not BPD… it does happen. But people forget these four cluster B types noticing fears: • NPD: fear of being unloved/forgotten • BPD: fear of being abandoned • HPD: fear of being unwanted/ignored • ASPD: fear of being controlled Easier to understand how they operate, makes sense what creates the behavior they do.
Love this.
I have BPD, & I’ve never manipulated anyone. I’m painfully honest. I can do without what I can’t get.
If you’ve met and been involved with anyone that has the diagnosis then you wouldn’t be posting this. BPD is an acronym for evil. Just not sure of the details. Haha
The ends do not justify the means, nor do the means accomplish the goal. No sympathy from this guy.
Correct me if I’m misreading you, but it sounds like you’re saying that because their manipulation is motivated by other factors, it’s somehow not manipulation (since you put it in quotes). That’s not how the world works. Even though they might have reasons to manipulate which are beyond their control, it’s still manipulation. For example. If someone were to sneeze while driving and it caused her to kill a pedestrian, she still killed somebody. Motivation or mental dysfunction does not change the results of the actions. I have reserved sympathy, but within context of the results, any sympathy is quite limited, and completely unengaged with the cluster B person. The older I get, the happier I feel to wrap all of that in a package I call “other peoples problems”, never to be opened!
Nah, it’s an adult tantrum. Maybe if someone is undiagnosed and isn’t aware, but if someone who has been diagnosed with BPD and is actively refusing treatment decides to have a go at you, oh boyo that is just abuse.
Agreed. They are then acting in bad faith. My post is about people with ego-syntonic BPD.
Hey, I'm someone with BPD hello hello 👋 I've put in 13 years of non-therapy mindfulness that transitioned my explosions to implosions in effort to rationalize past transgressions with more compassion. It's a long time coming that dragged people in my closest circle but I have apologized for the harm I've done. Since I'm imploding now, the hurt I give to others is by isolating myself and keeping them at arms distance which, is just *slightly* better imo. I give all that tmi context because I know what it's like to lash out or completely implode until your insides are decaying but I also empathize with what it's like to be on the receiving end to someone who isolates for days on end and terrified that they're dead in their room or to see your loved one go through life as a smiling zombie, clearly dead inside but fully functioning. I'm (finally) in therapy since the start of this year. Imo, it's a tragedy to call people with pd's irredeemable monsters who are only out to do harm but I can't necessarily blame others for that perception, especially if they've been badly hurt by someone with pd. But such generalized beliefs are what makes the world go 'round sometimes, because yeah, if I met another BPD who was in the midst of violence or abuse even if it was an abandonment breakdown, I'd try to save myself first to keep another traumatic event from happening to me. Those who are affected by pd's should receive un-demonized help AND support from fellow non-clinical humans because we are people who need a village the most but they (including myself) should also expect that people will distance themselves from us because of the harm we can legitimately bring. But ofc, the dichotomy is hard to sit with in people who have a PD and those who don't. So the least I can do is just tell my perceptive to mitigate some demonization without falling to into being fetishized.
Great - you are a shining example of how insight and courageous effort can control this awful condition.
I wish it wasn't the case tho, that I could live life not controlled by the fears perpetuated by bpd and that others wouldn't demonize people like me just for having BPD bc wow, those "Stay away from them, they're bad people" YouTube comments are HURTFUL when I put in the research lol. But it is what it is, lemonade out of lemons.
That’s why I made this post. To try and get people to have a bit more understanding and compassion for this condition.
I had a roommate who was BPD and she was super manipulative had all us other roommates running around for her and doing things for her and she wasn’t even appreciative. She lived a hectic life and needed everyone helping her out and she was bitchy to us but then when she’d need something she was all nice out of the blue. She would date men for like a few months really intensely then break up with then. Had tons of different careers she was gonna do then would quickly change her mind. Lived all over the country and would abandon housing situations and people super fast.
I believe my younger sister has BPD. I was parentified by my parents. I took the brunt of the physical and emotional abuse, while she was the golden child. Despite that I never blamed her or felt jealousy and we were always very close. Since she was a teen though she has had emotional outbursts at me, laugh at my feelings, project blame and anger for her life being how it is, threaten to kill herself because I “don’t help her.” She also makes constant comments about how I’m “soooo perfect.” She constantly seeks validation, and I was often her biggest cheerleader. I started to notice that when I accomplished something she would withhold any congratulations. She also posts constant sexual stuff on social media to get attention. It triggers me tbh because my mom constantly put us in horrible situations because she was chasing men. I chose to leave my family and hometown and get an education and focus on a career, while she started having kids at 18. I’ve been no contact with her for awhile. It’s heartbreaking to lose my sister, but I cannot be the object of her angry projections anymore. I know why she does what she does, but her pain is not more important than my own.
Some people with BPD are aware of it and while not making the best decisions they are willing to try their best and I can sympathize with that. However not all of them are like that. My ex has BPD and instead of trying to have her emotional needs met in a even kind of reasonable way would instead insist that I literally read her mind and that I should know when something is a problem BEFORE it is a problem. She would use her BPD and her autism as a shield to deflect any responsibility and say she is completely unable to just state what is wrong or what she wants. People who use these disorders at weapons and shields or as a way to manipulate like she did constantly dont deserve the sympathy.
I see what you’re saying. Some people act in bad faith. Ultimately we have a responsibility to play the hand we were dealt. It’s very frustrating when people get a diagnosis and then use it as an excuse to act out. We are what we do with what’s been done to us.
I’ve had them in my life, currently living with a bpd person. She doesn’t know it. What’s most difficult and frustrating is 1. She doesn’t think she has it. 2. Dealing with her and the abuse is a normal occurrence. 3. Correcting her behavior just leads to more abuse, reactance. 4. I’ve come to the point where I just let her win reinforcing her bad behavior. Her - ‘Hurtful statement’ Me - “ok thanks” otherwise, Her ‘Hurtful Statement’ Me- “that’s not kind, I don’t feel great when you talk to me like this.” Her - “that sucks, stop being sensitive” or “grow up” etc Which shows extreme lack of empathy. Just like anything in life you need to try, and the fact that someone who is aware of having bpd doesn’t actively get better is NOT an excuse. I’ve had terrible traumatic events happen in my life, but I’m constantly growing and learning to try and be better. This girl in particular has had nothing happen, and has always had people reinforce her bad behavior.
Sounds like she is in denial. Until she accepts she has a problem she will never change - obviously. That’s one of the main problems with personality disorders, they are ego-syntonic, they don’t know they have a problem. Which is a problem in itself.
She was the reason I learned everything I know now about the other. But the fact that I was discarded just as I was about to have a prolonged conversation about All the odd things happening, she had a rage moment and blamed me for her kids dysfunction... We were only together for an intense 4 months. Although now I'm entering the hardest phase of individuation, also the discard may have been my golden ticket, but you never grow if you never face your fears. Why would anyone choose lifetimes of being "dead whilst alive". Pathetic and abusive people. Especially considering the success rates of those who do a few mere years of therapy and more purposefully, inner work/self work. Karma is passing your traumas on to others.
55f…I was diagnosed 25 years ago. Thank you for seeing us as people and not monsters 🫶🏻
I posted about about NPD yesterday and how it was unfair the lack of compassion for this personality disorder there was. Totally agree with you.
Oh gotcha, I hadnt seen your other post. It definitely is easy to feel bad for them, because they do things to themselves. And are their own worst enemies. But then again when you start pitying them, is when youre more vulnerable to a dagger in the back. My ex had bpd and I still pity her, although she was extremely manipulative and tried to do everything she could to destroy me. Pity from a great distance is definitely preferable. So I agree it can make you feel more sympathetic.
Someone's mental illness is not an excuse to be a pos
I suppose it’s not really an excuse- it’s not done on purpose, it’s an uncontrollable emotional oitburst
I mean sure but that’s probably true of most people who do unacceptable things to meet their needs so I don’t understand how this is unique in any way here
I suppose I’m just pointing out a distinction between different kinds of manipulation. You can consciously manipulate an old lady out of her life savings or manipulate your partner to do what you want. But people with BPD lose control and often have huge shame and guilt over their actions. I agree the end result is the same, but more understanding of their unconscious uncontrollable impulse to hurt others will hopefully humanise them a bit more.
I think you should focus more on the last thing you just said and be wary of enabling. It’s very a thin line. I think the distinction here is more about how directly you’re primed to empathize with certain motivations. Yeah they have huge shame and guilt, know it’s wrong and then do it again but somebody we seem to prefer that to a psychopathic person that did something less wrong because we can’t see ourselves in them as much. Even empathy can be narcissism in disguise. I think you have stumbled onto the worthwhile point that some behaviours can be reliable and specific. I don’t think we should necessarily strive to be less compassionate in any case—understanding is important. But let’s not allow our misguided empathy to enable people to continually engage in behaviours that harm other people. That’s never okay, and there’s no unique set of reasons that change that. Firmness and directness can be invaluable here. It needs to be made clear that certain behaviours just aren’t going to fly but we should also make it clear that we want to help people find another way to meet their needs where we can
BPD can be simply diagnosed on the highway system, those that do not use cruise control… here is your sign.
Dunno why that popped up but people who are willing to manipulate and can't be responsible for it deserve no sympathy or understanding. The only two options if you choose to have these people in your life is hold them absolutely accountable for their behavior and be willing to leave, or just cut them out right away and save time.
i have no sympathy for the devil
We aren’t all like that… some of us took the time to put in the work, years of therapy and self reflection so that we dont manipulate or hurt others.
Oh I didn’t mean to offend anyone with this post - just to flag up the pain and vulnerability behind what some people think is just horrible behaviour. More power to you and it’s great you reflected on your situation and sought professional help - it takes a lot of courage to do that - huge respect ✊
😔
Like almost all manipulation
I suppose we all manipulate to a degree. Albert Camus once said ‘Charm is a way to get the answer yes without directly asking for anything’. We manipulate to get ahead in our jobs, to get others to do what we want etc. But that’s different from a desperate need to get our emotional needs met.
Yeah. I spent most of my life believing that people were constantly strategizing to achieve particular outcomes (I am more cerebral and tend to think about my life this way). It's been a shock to realize that most people are just desperately trying to get their emotional needs met. Just flailing around trying whatever might work. Love the quote!
Yeah, I think when you can see the vulnerability at the core of most people and the bungled strategies they unconsciously employ to get their needs met, it really changes how you fell about others - and then how you relate to them. It’s a very powerful insight. Glad you liked the quote 😉👍🏻
Not neccesarily. There are some very manipulative people with BPD that isnt as innocent as you say, and not to mention, you could say any sort of manipulation from a cluster b personality disorder is that way. It's all to get their emotional needs met and often happens reflexually. Even npd is like that. It's exactly how you described alot of the time. People just reacting to their emotions and trying to save their image of themselves in their head, following strong emotions.
NPD is another one, you’re right. Being manipulative to gain attention and narcissistic supply. Ultimately all cluster B personalities need to be understood as damaged individuals, not innately bad people.
Imagine your partner is stuck in a never ending attempt to gaslight you and whether or not they are good enough at that to bend your reality.... They gaslight themselves in the same move. As far as I catagorize things, BPD folks have a hard time distinguishing from events they imagined from events that actually occured, a journal would probably help if the person was willing. But Id definetly have an easier time trusting a schizophrenic and place a BPD sufferer on the same trust level as a crackhead. Its a very easy way to be accused of sexual assault from someone you may have only seen once.
My brother has lost everything because of BPD. (Plus drugs which he didn’t touch until his mid 40’s) Only our mum has not given up on him. I had to pull away for my own mental health sake. Being near him feels like being in a dark thunderstorm. My parents are in their late 70’s and he makes their life a living hell. I feel helpless that I can’t do anything to help. When he is calm he will give his life to help a stranger.
yes, manipulation doesn’t always mean what everyone automatically thinks, however all of those things are very damaging and aren’t something anyone should have to go through, just because their partner has a mental illness. i was like that before i knew what BPD was; now i’ve researched the shit out of it, and anything that seemingly works for others, i apply to my life and try my best. i’ve acknowledged that those are manipulation tactics, i wasn’t even aware at the time! i just thought “i have big emotions and i can’t handle this anymore”. but that’s not fair to our partners, our friends, or our family
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And yet that is actual manipulation so…
It's also been described as "free ticket to be an asshole'.............
I’ve had friends with BPD. Both were charismatic when first meeting them. But both of them had some serious substance abuse issues and would habitually burn all their bridges every six months. They’d threaten self harm, gaslight people when they did something shitty, would launch smear campaigns against people who called them out, get shit faced and start fights, etc. I get that they are in a ton of mental pain pretty much constantly. But for my own mental health I had to cut ties. And everyone they ended up replacing me with did the same. It doesn’t matter what their intentions were - bottom line is that they were extremely toxic and self destructive. They both forced me into a codependent relationship where I felt obligated to keep them alive and out of harms way. And all they’d do in return is lie, guilt trip, and shame me. They always brought drama and chaos wherever they went. For the time I was friends with them - it was constant hell. It got to the point where I was constantly under so much stress I got a stomach ulcer. Those two ended up replacing me with the next fresh batch of enablers after about six months. And now they are either ostracized or no contact with everybody on campus. One of them was even banned from every bar in town for creeping on women and instigating fights. I get that their mental illness is debilitating, and I wouldn’t wish that kind of chronic agony onto anybody. But that doesn’t mean we should not hold these people accountable. They know something is very wrong and yet neither of them took mental health help seriously.
What you're describing is, in fact, manipulation, it's just manipulation you can understand and reason through. If I'm close to someone drowning, and their wild thrashing breaks my nose, my nose is still broken, I have been struck, it didn't hurt less because they had a good reason.
"but this ‘manipulation’ is usually just a desperate, unskilled attempt to get their emotional needs met - giving unreasonable ultimatums, threatening suicide, self harm etc." Still manipulation.
From the perspective of an outsider, the person they are manipulating and abusing, does it really matter? My ex would cry to me about how their parent or others would always accuse her of doing certain behaviors in an attempt to manipulate them or to make them feel bad. It achieved the same result so what does the intent behind it really matter when it happens over and over? If I programmed a robot to do the same thing would you really care that it doesn't mean it? Just because they aren't aware of the behavior doesn't make it okay. There's the saying how we judge ourselves by our intent and others by their actions, as if this is a bad thing and should be stopped. There's a good reason we do it, and people with BPD are at the top of the list as to why. Who cares if they have a good reason for being a shitty, manipulative person when you have to put up with them being a shitty, manipulative person regardless? BPD CAN be treated and has a success rate of over 90%, there really isn't an excuse for it anymore. BPD is an explanation but don't let it be used as a shield to defend bad behavior.
All I can say is if you have BPD do not attempt a relationship with anyone that has ADHD or AuDHD
Oh no, I’m not saying it’s not manipulation, it most certainly is. We all manipulate to a degree, it’s just that people with BPD are really bad at it. Their crude strategies are incredibly troublesome and draining. I was just making the point that their manipulation comes from a place of deep insecurity, not just because they are deliberately horrible people.
If you kept that exact same sentiment in the post, but switched bpd to Narcissism, or ASPD, would you still feel the same?
Be very careful. If you are a codependent, this will not end well. Maintain very strict boundaries. The BPD rollercoaster is not a recommended ride at this amusement park called earth. If you really want to know more, read ‘walking on eggshells’ and visit website groups for those who are in and/or survived a relationship with someone who is borderline.