SD: *Looks at profits*,
“Mmmm naaahhhh! See Darkhawk your problem is, you’re too useful. You get shit done, you own Arishem decks like a champ, and you don’t even whine about it! Unlike someone else in the room…”
It's popular because it's fun, not because it's particularly strong. I started climbing after it came out using the same non-Arishem deck I was struggling with before its release. Between Darkhawk and Cassandra Nova coming out soon, Arishem isn't a real issue in the meta.
Arishem is undoubtedly a really strong card though, especially in conquest. Conquest kinda requires decks to be hyper consistent, and the best deck adding 12 RANDOM cards to your deck is the complete opposite. That alone should say how strong the card and decks are.
The extra energy is so crazy. Not only are you ahead in tempo just by adding a card in your deck (how crazy is that? You are rewarded just by owning the card) but you can do weird combos not possible with normal decks. The other day I played 3 black widow cards starting from turn 2; black widow, black widow, abs man. Tell me how do you even counter that, I'm ahead in tempo and the opponent lost 50% of their draws that match and 1/4 of their board space. This is one example of the wild shit arishem can do.
Hot take here: he's not fun, **for me** before I get skewered by a hundred pitchforks. Neither playing it or against. I'm not hating or complaining, I think it's just not for me and I hope is presence in the game goes down when the novelty wears off.
Tried some shells with him - Darkhawk/rocks, High Evo, mill, pure tech, Loki, even auto generated decks around one card and swap something for Arishem - and it's just bullshit random go. When I win with it I feel like I completely fleeced my opponent, when I lose because I got a bunch of random shit that doesn't synergise I wonder why the fuck wouldn't I play the archetype I built around without him.
Playing against him on a Gold conquest is fucking taxing. 7 or 8 rounds of guessing what the fuck he generated this round is not fun for me.
Glad you're all having fun, but I really dislike this card in its current state.
> Playing against him on a Gold conquest is fucking taxing. 7 or 8 rounds of guessing what the fuck he generated this round is not fun for me.
Be aggressive in snapping with him, this is the kind of card where you go big or go home in conquest.
Arishem is basically a ramp deck you play at the start of the match hence why it is fun. play a 5 cost card on 4, 6 cost on 5 and whatever cards you can vomit on 6.
Seems overall quite data driven, the one thing I agree on from this subs opinion is for SD to show when Arishem is in the opponents deck, to make it easier for new players and clearer what to expect
Is it really that hard to tell? They play a card they shouldn't have the energy for yet or they play cards that don't fit a theme. I know it's hard to ask people to use their brains.
Yep every game you have to go out of your way and do it. And if you don't know to look you won't even think to check.
Why not just display it by default?
I agree an indicator would be good. For this and Thanos. It's not fun clicking an avatar every game to see the opponent's card count. Hell, I think we should also see the opponent's energy each turn too. It's not fun counting up energy drain/gain. It just slows down what is supposed to be a fast game.
It’s sad because most of the people complaining are the people who don’t pick him up. Plus he likely won’t be in a spotlight again til Christmas which will annoy people too.
He’s fun. Draft mode’s gonna be a hit when it comes.
Doesn't matter if he feels bad to lose to. That's not me speaking, I think he has annoying spikes but he hits lows too. If people don't like playing against it, it's not about the power. Alioth taught us that.
He is 75% winrate ita safe to sat EVERYONE HAS HIM. You aren't special by playing a card that gets value just by existing. He is op and they will have to tone him down. Even if he is not op you have to agree a 75% play rate card is not healthy for any game
I didn’t mind playing against him, I’m just annoyed playing against him every game. I’ve played 40 matches today and all but 3 were against arishem decks.
And when you do get matched against him, they'll inevitably hit their Rogue, Skrull, and Blob all just to rub it in your face.
I'm trying a surprise Tribunal Darkhawk deck with Cosmo to protect my Ongoing lane to try to pull out some surprise wins against people playing him. I had a match earlier where my opponent Blobbed, Abs Manned for a second Blob, and of course also had their Legion to shut off Onslaught Citadel.
I did grab Arishem though, and in fairness, he is very fun to play.
There are definitely some crazy combos with him. If you get quinjet and Loki out you’re just playing the same deck as your opponent with 1 extra energy and-2 cost on all cards
So I'm going to make a counterpoint using a Hearthstone card. Prince Renathal. Hearthstone decks normally contain 30 cards and starting health is 30, and when the Murders of Castle Nathria expansion was released, he was the free card to promote the set, which allowed players to add an additional 10 cards to their deck as the cost to start the game at 40 health. The card itself was a 3 cost 3/4, so it's a vanilla card like Cyclops with that upside and downside of extra cards for extra health. He was beyond popular so much that the Blizzard Dev Team had to nerf his health gain to an extra 5 health instead of 10 just to make people stop auto including him in every deck.
So just because a card is fun and it seems more like a meme style card, if it becomes too popular, there is always a chance it'll see a nerf.
So if Arishem sees like a 60-70% play rate across all decks weeks after his release, he'll likely get a nerf of adding 15-20 cards rather than 12 to lower his consistency, in hopes of lowering his play rate.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they still nerfed it to be more in line with fun level on the other archetypes. I’d rather they do more cool things to up the fun, seems like every fun update they take Angela, kitty pride and Loki out back and pull their limbs off and stick them back on in all the wrong places.
I don't know. I think in the last year, Snap has grown more and more stale and tedious to play because a lot of the top meta decks aren't actually fun. They're just busted, linear combos that you either play or counter if you want to be competitive.
Arishem feels like you're playing an entirely different game, and I feel engaged with all the decision making, and oddly, based on the RNG of the cards you draw, I feel like I have way more agency in figuring out what I'm going to do from turn to turn. With decks like Hela and Destroy, it's like you're just a robot going down a flow-chart. "Did I draw this? Do that." I feel like actual thought and skill are now involved to see what you can make of the random pile you drew.
Nerfing Arishem *down* to the 'fun-level' of other archetypes would be to just throw in the trash a card that has rejuvenated the game for many people, and would be super-depressing. Imagine nerfing an average win-rate card because it's too fun.
You are right, I just don’t know how many arishams SD can make happen with current team. I wish it was like this at least every couple months. I still love high evo and Galactus.
Yep, exactly this. Having played a good chunk of Arishem and played counter-Arishem decks, the counter decks are WAY more consistent, even against non-Arishem opponents. I have had some amazing Arishem plays...but I've also had a lot of dead hands.
yeah it’s win rate is skewed because the loki/darkhawk build is probably an A tier build by itself but it self counters and hard counters other arishem. In a week or two it’s playrate will drop and so will its win rate as a result
Honestly I don’t agree. If you’re a good player then Arishem is phenomenal! The opponent cannot read your plays at all. They don’t know your next card! In infinite ladder that means everything. Climbed from 90-100 without sweat.
Ahhh, I was thinking about how Binding of Isaac has a 0-4 "Item Quality" stat for its hundreds of items. Items with a higher quality were less likely to appear in most circumstances.
He means like the Hela nerf that took place. Hela’s revived cards have a -2 to power. Similarly, cards Arishem makes could have a -1 power modifier added to them
It's relative I'm sure. As a randomly generated card there are tons that are good in dedicated decks that aren't good randomly. Think Mr. Negative or cerebro.
Ooh, that kind of works from a lore perspective too. Like the Celestials only mess with lower life-forms in their experiments so they only have a cache of less-powerful cards.
That would open up the deck building for Arishem players because they'll NEED those higher-series cards to be competitive.
I'll still end up dying to Ari-generated Doc Ock every damn time, though, lol
Jesus, the deck is already pretty inconsistent with the quality of cards it gives you. Actively making it *less* consistent would be awful. Why you'd go out of your way to make the most fun card...the most fun *anything* Snap has done in a long time... unplayable is beyond me.
If it had some kind of crazy win-rate, I could see it, but it's an average deck at best when it comes to winning. Literally the only justification for nerfing it would be: "The card is just too much fun!"
It’s not strong. Here’s some random with a turn advantage - good luck.
Gives you space to load a lot of counter cards and hope Arishem covers the rest, but you can’t depend on anything. After fighting a dozen of these decks, they should be left alone until new card drops break the universe.
He's definitely viable that's all I'm sure about right now.
In the short term it's really hard to judge since everyone is playing him.
I have certainly had a lot of games early on in my testing where he just gave me terrible cards back to back and I had nothing but junk.
From raw numbers I think on average it's fine, even on the good draws I wasn't regularly beating out any of the real heavy hitters you would expect.
That's the thing. First of all he is op but let's pretend he's not. A card like arishem being viable and top deck is not healthy for the game. Let's say you disagree with that too. How about his 75% winrate? This is not healthy for any game. They'll have to touch him and soon
I dont think arishems getting nerfed any time soon. If they ever need to reduce his strength, they'd probably buff darkhawk e.g. a little bit.
In addition to this, we're getting cassandra nova soon who's essentially going to be another arishem hard counter
Darkhawk is already a great hard counter. I snap on turn 1 against him because darkhawk mystique or darkhawk Zola is a 2 card combo that’s super consistent to draw and beats him 90% of the time.
Arishem is in a great place and feels really fresh. That’s the reason everyone’s playing him right now. But I’d be surprised if he stays in the meta 1-2 weeks from now.
Run Crystal and Magik. Run Nico and don’t be afraid to burn a card for the draw spell.
You can even run Howard/jubilee/Ironlad if ya want cause you literally only need dark hawk/mystique/Zola in your deck to win so you actually get a ton of flexibility.
Best deck I’ve been using is a negative deck surprisingly. But I’d like to try running some sort of junk package to guarantee a safe lane for me to hawk/zola. Haven’t fucked with it though
The mention of card quality suggests the effect is potentially not entirely random. I hope we don't go the route of esoteric game information.
Could also mean they limit the pool with card text. So change it to 0-3 cost cards or something explicit. Could also just mean a Loki or Valentina like effect where they modify cost or power.
Edit: hela got the negative power nerf not loki
I do have Blob, Loki and Mockingbird (Darkhawk forever eludes me) and I'm still dependent on RNG to help. I'd say in my last 20 games I've seen Blob once? More often than not my hand is full of the random cards, and I win some and lose some based on that RNG -- which is why Arishem is fine (and fun) the way he is.
Arishem is an absolute crapshoot in terms of the power, cost, and playability of the cards you get from him. It’s fun chaos, but very far from being controllably OP. There’s little to no reason to *ever* nerf him, imo. Can’t we just have fun things for fun’s sake in this freaking game?
100%. It's insane that it's not even the weekend and people are flagging down devs to be like, "What'll you do if he proves to be too dominant?!"
It's been a few days! He's everywhere because he's something fresh in a game that's been anything but. He's also insanely RNG dependent, which is why you get the extra energy. I've won games in fun ways and I've lost plenty to regular decks because RNG went against me, bonus energy or not.
As mentioned, he's a crapshoot that can go either way like any deck. His popularity will die down once the Deadpool season begins and people start realizing he's not some auto-win design that some of these posts make him out to be.
Arishem is so much fun for me, I get bored easily of playing my proven infinite decks, this card adds so much fun factor.
I get beat playing this card, it’s not op imo. I get so tired of people always whining for a nerf within a few days of release… wish some people would just get over it… people will find ways to balance the meta.
IMO the upside of +1 energy from deckbuilding isn't completely offset by the downside of random cards in your deck, but it's close. If someone figures out how to mitigate the downside a little further it might need correction, but for now it seems fine even tho it's def. a tier one series 5 card.
If someone figures out a reliable way to draw Loki every game, watch out.
Everyone keeps mentioning Loki but I just took him out of my deck and so have many top players in Snap like Lamby, even when facing Loki Arishem decks they dont do anything with my cards.
Loki seems like cope for the deck, hes cool but not needed at all
Loki’s main reason for popularity at the moment is because like dark hawk, he’s pretty much a hard counter against Arishem decks. You get all the general good stuff they were hoping to out tempo you with for the exact same cost and sometimes cheaper if you also choose to run quinjet, he also helps break parity in the mirror because of that.
I can see that, may also be why he doesnt really work against me tho, my Arishem deck is running more "niche" cards Mbacku, Sunspot,etc only good hits are Mockingbird and Blob?
Im mostly relying on random card generation with decent cheap cards surrounding it
Loki/Arishem is a flavor of Arishem. It's really more a Loki deck which is why you see Coulson and Fury also added to that hand. In my estimation, it also works best with Cable/Mirage and/or Agent 13/Maria Hill in it, because Arishem can play their cards too fast sometimes, leaving their hand empty.
There are other flavors of Arishem that don't rely on Loki so much. You can certainly run Darkhawk/Blob/Mystique without Loki.
i thought i was going crazy.. since taking loki out of my deck i’ve had much more consistency, climbed from 58,000 to 30,000 between last night and this morning
yeah, everyone knew it would be big, but holy shit its massive not gonna lie
makes me wonder how much of a disadvantage high evo is having to leavce energy behind, even if that energy gives small buffs elsewhere, if playing with +1 energy and a bunch of random garbage is that strong, playing with -1 energy and small buffs in some cards must not be as strong as it seemed
The turn 5 galatus without wave or psylocke. Or loki -cost. Basically with arishem immediately they play turn 2 game at start meanwhile without arishem they just 1 turn behind.
I would only think he will get nerfed if his play rate remains high. SD wants ppl to play different decks cus it’s more fun in the long run.
My thought IF he gets nerf, instead of your 12 cards, you might get only 6 or 9 of them and the rest is random. Or possibly nerf quinjet interactions.
Not getting less random cards, you’re get more at the cost of your starting deck - before Arishem adds his cards. Maybe at the beginning of the game, you lose 3 or 6 of your cards from your starting deck and get like 15 or 18 random cards. Gives less of a chance to get blob, phasto or rogue or whatever ppl throw in to boost it.
Arishem play rate has decrease since Tuesday. I think SD going to wait and see.
Unpredictability and +1 Energy are the core mechanics of Arishem, the +12 shuffled cards is great but as the pool increases, so does Arishem's risk of use.
**TL;DR: Arishem user feels its fine, believes that adjusting the cards that work with it instead to ease the benefit of +1 energy will be the course.**
I see a few avenues based on how they would like to adjust Arishem's performance:
Unpredictability is an important aspect of a card game, psychologically affecting your opponent is important and needs to be treated fairly in a card's view.
If the community understands a certain card is oppressive, it will affect them, its a lucky shot if agent 13 produces Loki, whom we know is particularly strong and is obviously being looked at for performance because of its ability to swing games. Feel free to replace Loki with whatever card you hate to play against.
12 iterations of agent 13 for my opponent's deck without board real estate being compromised is daunting. Most of us have gotten comfortable checking our opponents deck size, rolling our eyes at what seems to be Agatha, slightly more wary if we see Thanos. Quick calculations if the deck we use can counter or overwhelm it and if its worth our time/effort to play the match. Lots of things follow this and are important to either gaining or losing a player's focus in a competitive card game.
There are arguments to be had if this should be something the devs should alleviate but remaining calm under pressure is also a form of skill, so it swings both ways on players to be responsible for how they play, even when it hurts being on the losing side.
Using Arishem, the unpredictability of your opponent being unable to read your deck archetype is another benefit, and in my experience using it (take with 1-8 grains of salt), is a much higher weighted benefit so long as you are playing against less experienced players. More variation in what to counter or what to expect and its easier for your opponent to lose track of your playstyle and are more prone to mistakes, which is an immense benefit to any "Best-of-\_\_\_\_\_" type of play we may have.
This is my own personal benefit, as I enjoy playing decks that leave my opponent guessing, regardless of my win/loss ratio and because of the nature of this game, I will win more than I lose so long as I keep playing. I believe this is an important distinction to make because it plays into a direct objective: Player retention
**To adjust unpredictability:** the card could lose the range of other card generation, such as excluding other big bad labelled cards, or in the worst case scenario, have a specified pool of cards Arishem can generate.
Continued below:
Energy is a much larger umbrella of benefits and issues.
Having +1 energy is an immediate effect on playstyle in general, and if it weren't for the balance of +12 random cards except Kang in the deck, it would powercreep deck building entirely so this is an important thing to factor.
Every card needs to be able to access conditions to play itself otherwise you've wasted a deck slot. +1 Energy means Arishem can be played on 6. It is the lesser option of accessibility and is an easier avenue to adjust in the future than say, always forcing a turn 7 to guarantee 7 energy to benefit only Arishem at face value, with the negatives being elongated games and lets not pretend the community wants that. Because this is polarizing and will sweep deck construction of every archetype in preparation for a possible and sometimes inevitable turn 7.
**A nuclear option on adjustment could be "Arishem costs less per card generated currently in play"** or some similar text to imply that the more randomly generated cards produced by Arishem that are on the field, the cheaper he is to play, freely allowing Arishem to cost 6 or less, but at the obvious expense of removing the +1 max energy.
24 effective cards with a 6 energy cap is much worse in this regard without a considerable number of those being cost reduction focused, reducing the effectiveness of the flavor of the archetype in the first place, which is the randomness and all encompassing access, thereby significantly reducing card usage and quite possibly killing the card entirely.
Another possibility is "Cards generated by Arishem cannot have their costs reduced or increased", adding more text to a card is rarely a positive as conditions get awkward and simplified descriptions being replaced with keywords wherever possible is important. This does pose a problem, however, as an almost free Mobius for your opponent means you've now eliminated the inclusion of Ravonna, Pixie, Sera, Phastos (50% effectiveness maximum on a good day), Mr Negative, Zabu, and whatever cost modifying cards I forgot, in your deck and if they were generated, are now dead draws for you, and those cards by nature have low power. This is less impactful compared to the nuclear option, but an issue nonetheless until the card pool is so large it no longer matters, but by then I imagine the game has changed almost entirely.
**The likely adjustment**, is a first wave of card introductions that, after the scheduled release of archetype enhancing cards rolls out (spiders and the like), would be to add more accessible cards for disruption, both for the opponent and oneself:
More rocks in the deck
Cards that, when played, destroy/discard a random or condition targeted card in your deck
Cards that, when drawn, prevent an opponent from *playing more than one card that turn similar to sandman*
Cards that, when drawn, prevent an opponent from *drawing next turn similar to widow's bite*
Cards that, when drawn, are immediately played if there is available space (most likely with negative or 0 power)
Cards that, when drawn, cause your opponent to lose energy the next turn
Increasing the pool of double edged or self inflicting cards will hamper the effectiveness of the pool for Arishem, they also increase the power of junk and viper focused decks, and to be honest are not a bad idea as a collection filler so long as there are not too many released in a row or player sentiment will decline into the negative.
**An ineffectual adjustment**, would be to remove the energy addition completely, and buffing Arishem's personal stats. Similar to the power increase on High Evolutionary, Arishem isn't a card we would like to play unless we have to. 7 power is useable but we never want to see it at 7 cost. 6/9 is a common statline that again barely benefits but would be slightly more effective if it was the singular option left to play. As card complexity and flexibility increases, the worse this adjustment is in comparison.
Continued further
**Another more likely adjustment**, would be the targeting of cards that have high amounts of synergy with Arishem, especially those that compensate for the archetype's core weaknesses, cost and random draw
11 out of 23 remaining cards are still within the player's control.
Cards that would typically lead themselves to be considered for a deck like this would be:
Cards that increase power of your other cards with loose conditions for benefit: America Chavez, Forge, Okoye, Shuri, Blue Marvel
Cards that reduce your costs: Quinjet, Pixie, Wave, Mr Negative, Sera
Cards that play from the deck: M'Baku, Jubilee, Iron Lad, Lockjaw, Blink
Cards that I believe would be targeted:
Quinjet, stat change from 1/2 -> 1/0 feels like a weak adjustment but 0 power from an ongoing you want to keep on the board hurts no matter where you put it without compensation.
Phastos, stat change from 3/3 -> 2/1 while removing the -1 cost form the effect and reducing the +2 power to +1 power.
Loki, power reduction from 4/5 to 4/3 or 4/2, and the clarification of adding to your hand instead of transforming to bring back dependence on Collector for additional power and allowing Quinjet and other similar cost reduction cards to be almost required to make the card more difficult to use in general, while being a buff to widow's bite and whatever future card addition prevention cards will be released.
An adjustment would likely be to limit the transformation/addition to 3 cards while maintaining statline.
---------
Until the dust settles, we won't know how they want to adjust Arishem, because both options listed by either adding more cards or reducing card quality are broad enough that they can ultimately not matter.
Play usage is going to be up because its new, +1 energy is powerful, and a new archetype always raises the skill floor of the playerbase (playerbase meeting the floor and being able to reach the ceiling is irrelevant).
Arishem is still going to struggle against the usual decks: consistent destroy, junk and disrupt, and a much luckier Arishem mirror.
Not only is there a card coming that abuses his effect.
There already is.
Darkhawk and Cassandra are gonna ruin that deck.
Cards like Goose is also incredibly good. Since most of them rely on 4+ cost cards.
While arishem can definetly be strong if he hits a good curve. It's all up to RNG.
You see their RNG/curve be solid turn 1-3/4 and they haven't snapped yet. It's an easy retreat.
In 2 months this is gonna be the next Loki. The "fun" card you add to some random decks overtime with newer cards.
I can’t imagine he will prove “too strong.” My win rate with him over the pat week has been 50% at best, due to the unpredictability of his generating mechanic. True, the extra energy point is a big advantage, but not overwhelming when you have no idea whAt is coming out of the draw pipe each turn.
Adding more cards would probably be the nerf, but it's also somewhat a buff in different ways? And vice versa.
I guess they would really need to specify what cards, at what cost will be generated, but even that could be too good.
Honestly don't know how they would go about nerfing Arishem without indirectly buffing him. But he is balanced. :/
I know this may get hate but if anything, Loki is the one that needs a nerf. Arishem is strong with the +1 energy since turn 1, but the worst case scenario is that your hand gets crowded with shitty stuff, then Loki comes in hand and steals a new set of synergy cards from the opponent, then you not only have more energy than your opponent, but also - 1 to a whole set of new cards, kinda over the top if you ask me.
I know everyone loves Loki, but he feels like Zabu or the old stones, the more they prolong the adjustment the more broken it'll become with every new deck.
Loki has hard counters in mobius and combo decks. If loki ever comes to a point where he is truly all you are seeing and you aren't playing a combo deck, throw in mobius and their chances of winning drastically decrease. If your deck can't accommodate that tech slot then you need to just play a combo deck (phoenix force, hela, tribunal, wong decks, etc.), because the odds of loki being able to make use of your cards effectively is much lower than yours. Again, this is only if he's really common, you always have the chance to run into a deck when it's off-meta that counters yours.
Just like any other top tier deck he cycles in-between being meta or not. This along with clear counters such as above makes him fine in my opinion.
This is why I’m spamming ravonna negative till play rates go down lol. You can usually go over the top of Blobs with good negative hits, Loki will never pull a good hand from you, and you get to include Darkhawk for free because even without synergy a flipped darkhawk is still huge even against normal decks.
loki is probably the only card in marvel snap that allows a higher form of skill ceilling, nerf it would outright kill the game for anyone that seeks that
maybe move is at that tier too, of "very high skill ceilling decks", but cant confirm
How exactly is Loki high skill ceiling? If you play the game fairly often and are familiar with the basic archetypes of different decks there’s no ceiling to his play.
Loki mirrors are stupid tho. Loki is his own counter; when he gets too prevalent everyone gets tired of playing 2-3 Lokis, four Qinjets, and 2 Coulson every game.
It's a fun stupid card that introduces chaos. The popularity will drop off once the new season starts. If and when I hit infinity I like to play random decks, this is the full random.
Thanos was changed because he was broken (design wise), not because people whined. And no shit he's not as good now - would be a pointless nerf if the card didn't become weaker, wouldn't it?
Chavez was too strong, but also, it's probably the funnest card in recent history, why wouldn't everybody play it? The meta isn't homogeneous because Arishem is a different game every time
I’m very curious what quality means. Would it be like “12 random cards from series 3”? Or maybe something like “twelve random cards with under 10 power”
I’m like 30% in Arishem mirrors because I was playing a fun build and didn’t do the whole Darkhawk/Blolb shenanigans.
I switch to playing Mr. negative teched for Arishem or Ravonna Athena decks also teched for Arishem. Had genuinely a 90% winrate, the archetype is very exploitable. It just feels oppressive because of first it being a new deck, first big Blob deck is a while so now everyone has to remember how to beat Blob, and lastly it is 75% of the meta. Of course it’ll feel bad to lose to Arishem because you play it so often that you remember almost all of your loses to the deck because that’s all that’s being played
Arishem has brought all the fun back to this game for me. It’s the draft mode I never knew I needed. It’s better than draft mode because I don’t know what I’m drawing next.
I love playing it in Conquest.
You know what I think is funny is that a lot of people seemed to think that Arishem would not be very good because of the randomness. I personally think it isn't overpowered but I'm glad it is definitely viable because it is a very fun card to play.
If they nerf Arishem I'm literally going to quit
yes he is good in conquest cause your opponent can't predict your cards every round but in normal games it's not that good it's just fun playing him
Reddit is full of garbage takes that’s what I’ve learned after joining a week ago. I think I was better off not knowing this sub existed. Besides news this sub is full of bad players with god awful takes.
Fun =/= Overpowered.
You’re not seeing Arishem because he’s overpowered. Not even the community data, for how limited it is, supports that notion. Glenn confirms the same that Arishem isn’t raising alarm internally either.
You’re seeing Arishem because he’s fun, random, a new archetype and the newest card released.
Every new card sees play in the first 1-2 weeks. Always will. Then they’ll taper off OR *rise* after their Spotlight week (which is indicative of them being problematic). Arishem also belongs to the same archetype-creating class of cards as High Evo, Loki, Zemo, Thanos, Mr. Negative etc. So sees an enduring play rate compared to standalone, archetype supporting or tech cards.
In all honesty, that would probably kill the card. Arishem's strength is letting you play ahead of curve. Part of the curve is how much power is an average value for any given cost. His downside is that he clogs your deck and you can't plan around what you get.
Reducing power means you aren't playing ahead of curve any more. Yes you are technically playing a 3 drop on turn 2 but now it's more similar in power to a good 2 drop that someone could just plan to have in their deck. If you ruin the benefit to the card there would be basically no reason to play an Arishem deck instead of just a normal meta deck with either an OP combo or just the best cards for each energy cost.
If they think he needs a nerf, I think they'll have to adjust the number of cards added. I can't see any other change working without completely ruining Arishem. Delaying the energy gain would also completely ruin him.
I agree it's too early to tell if he needs adjustment but I do still think it's easy enough to gauge what kind of adjustment would potentially work if needed and what kind would kill the card.
Messing with Arishem's only advantage (playing ahead of curve) is not going to be the way to nerf him if he ends up needing one. Messing with his disadvantage (clogging your deck) probably is. I think if anything the thing that seems too busted right now is that I tend to draw my own cards far more than I thought I would. So playing ahead of curve and still landing my own planned OP cards/combos does feel like it might end up being too good.
"Hey Google, what does adding an entire decks worth of randomized cards do for me?"
"According to common sense, you moron, you will have the potential to draw any tech card in the game randomly - how did you not know that already?"
Since earlier today I drew one of my deck and the rest arishem cards and all of them were one cost including 2 mbaku, up to turn 6 where I drew hulk I'm not sure how they can reduce quality. No hulk?
If he wasn't strong people wouldn't be playing him. There's plenty of "fun" cards in the game that saw no play because they don't win. Card's busted but it's okay, the nerf will come down and I'll be back to see what the defence force has to say.
Basically outing yourself that you don’t know how to have fun. I bet you’re one of those people that retreats in Infinite instead of playing the whole match.
It is fun, if you got to choose half the deck to begin with. Total random isn't fun, some slightly controlled randomness and chaos is super fun, it turns out. Also the +1 energy to lessen the sting of sometimes just totally bricked hands.
The gimmick of the card is to have a big random unreliable deck. This would make it that way.
Currently the card is way too reliable and opponents with Arishem seem to draw cards like Quinjet, Blob or Mockingbird pretty often.
I don't know about you, but I think a 4 drop being played on turn 2 is quite broken, even if it's a random one.
Mockingbird being free 9 power most of the time and Blob being almost guaranteed to win a location by himself is also quite powerful that very few decks can match.
Arishem decks also seem to run a lot of counters (or get random ones) to screw the opponent.
Probably in September - when they have to push other cards. Probably at first something around (like blob) and then cutting the synergy with Quinjet like the Stones for Thanos.
Before everyone freaks out, this is definitely not them saying they are going to nerf him. Just that internally they discuss what to do if they put something out and it ends up way busted in a way they didn't anticipate (Either too dominate or completely irrelevant).
Arishem has been out a few days. Players spent the first 48 hours thinking he was a bad meme, finding out he's actually quite good, building hard counter decks, then building decks that counter the counter decks that also play into Arishem.
The card had a 75% playrate due to curiosity and hype, which is going to warp a meta and not give valuable info on its strength. You'll know his true strength in a couple of weeks when players go back to other decks and there is data about how strong Arishem is into decks that aren't other Arishem decks, Darkhawk, or clog.
The first nerf to Arishem, if there needs to be one, should be dropping Darkhawk to series 3.
Honestly, best nerf idea I've seen.
Second Dinner, hire this dude!
SD: *Looks at profits*, “Mmmm naaahhhh! See Darkhawk your problem is, you’re too useful. You get shit done, you own Arishem decks like a champ, and you don’t even whine about it! Unlike someone else in the room…”
I like you
It's popular because it's fun, not because it's particularly strong. I started climbing after it came out using the same non-Arishem deck I was struggling with before its release. Between Darkhawk and Cassandra Nova coming out soon, Arishem isn't a real issue in the meta.
Arishem is undoubtedly a really strong card though, especially in conquest. Conquest kinda requires decks to be hyper consistent, and the best deck adding 12 RANDOM cards to your deck is the complete opposite. That alone should say how strong the card and decks are.
I think the surprise part in conquest helps a lot too. It’s the only deck that can surprise people after you’ve already played 3-4 games.
It's not about the 12 random cards. It's about the extra energy it provides lol
The extra energy is so crazy. Not only are you ahead in tempo just by adding a card in your deck (how crazy is that? You are rewarded just by owning the card) but you can do weird combos not possible with normal decks. The other day I played 3 black widow cards starting from turn 2; black widow, black widow, abs man. Tell me how do you even counter that, I'm ahead in tempo and the opponent lost 50% of their draws that match and 1/4 of their board space. This is one example of the wild shit arishem can do.
Aye but the other part of conquest is learning your opponents deck which Arishem plays into nicely.
How did I not realize this sooner
Hot take here: he's not fun, **for me** before I get skewered by a hundred pitchforks. Neither playing it or against. I'm not hating or complaining, I think it's just not for me and I hope is presence in the game goes down when the novelty wears off. Tried some shells with him - Darkhawk/rocks, High Evo, mill, pure tech, Loki, even auto generated decks around one card and swap something for Arishem - and it's just bullshit random go. When I win with it I feel like I completely fleeced my opponent, when I lose because I got a bunch of random shit that doesn't synergise I wonder why the fuck wouldn't I play the archetype I built around without him. Playing against him on a Gold conquest is fucking taxing. 7 or 8 rounds of guessing what the fuck he generated this round is not fun for me. Glad you're all having fun, but I really dislike this card in its current state.
> Playing against him on a Gold conquest is fucking taxing. 7 or 8 rounds of guessing what the fuck he generated this round is not fun for me. Be aggressive in snapping with him, this is the kind of card where you go big or go home in conquest.
Yes please. I hate when people try to leave as soon as I snap with Arishem deck. Double down your commitment to take down am Arishem deck.
Arishem is basically a ramp deck you play at the start of the match hence why it is fun. play a 5 cost card on 4, 6 cost on 5 and whatever cards you can vomit on 6.
Posted this exactly and got downvoted to hell and told marvel snap is not a skill based game lol
and yet people will complain and cry for nerfs and SD will listen
This sub is a loud minority and really hope the devs don't take much stock in what the idiots complain about here.
Seems overall quite data driven, the one thing I agree on from this subs opinion is for SD to show when Arishem is in the opponents deck, to make it easier for new players and clearer what to expect
Is it really that hard to tell? They play a card they shouldn't have the energy for yet or they play cards that don't fit a theme. I know it's hard to ask people to use their brains.
lol right?! It takes one second to tap an avatar and see they have a bunch of cards. 😱
But now you have to check every game. Wich is an unnecessary extra step.
it’s ONE click dude
Yep every game you have to go out of your way and do it. And if you don't know to look you won't even think to check. Why not just display it by default?
Or just check while you are muting them
>SD to show when Arishem is in the opponents deck, You can check your or your opponent's deck size any time. 20+ cards = Arishem.
I agree an indicator would be good. For this and Thanos. It's not fun clicking an avatar every game to see the opponent's card count. Hell, I think we should also see the opponent's energy each turn too. It's not fun counting up energy drain/gain. It just slows down what is supposed to be a fast game.
I’m doing my pet to drag the data down
It’s sad because most of the people complaining are the people who don’t pick him up. Plus he likely won’t be in a spotlight again til Christmas which will annoy people too. He’s fun. Draft mode’s gonna be a hit when it comes.
Doesn't matter if he feels bad to lose to. That's not me speaking, I think he has annoying spikes but he hits lows too. If people don't like playing against it, it's not about the power. Alioth taught us that.
He is 75% winrate ita safe to sat EVERYONE HAS HIM. You aren't special by playing a card that gets value just by existing. He is op and they will have to tone him down. Even if he is not op you have to agree a 75% play rate card is not healthy for any game
I didn’t mind playing against him, I’m just annoyed playing against him every game. I’ve played 40 matches today and all but 3 were against arishem decks.
It’s really just a nature of the game and the hype of the card. It was the same way when Hi Evo came out and now i barely see High Evo decks.
Well, they nerfed High Evo cards like 5 times in a row.
Start playing dark hawk. 20 games and none in sight
And when you do get matched against him, they'll inevitably hit their Rogue, Skrull, and Blob all just to rub it in your face. I'm trying a surprise Tribunal Darkhawk deck with Cosmo to protect my Ongoing lane to try to pull out some surprise wins against people playing him. I had a match earlier where my opponent Blobbed, Abs Manned for a second Blob, and of course also had their Legion to shut off Onslaught Citadel. I did grab Arishem though, and in fairness, he is very fun to play.
I’d love to, but I don’t have him.
Plan better next time
There are definitely some crazy combos with him. If you get quinjet and Loki out you’re just playing the same deck as your opponent with 1 extra energy and-2 cost on all cards
So I'm going to make a counterpoint using a Hearthstone card. Prince Renathal. Hearthstone decks normally contain 30 cards and starting health is 30, and when the Murders of Castle Nathria expansion was released, he was the free card to promote the set, which allowed players to add an additional 10 cards to their deck as the cost to start the game at 40 health. The card itself was a 3 cost 3/4, so it's a vanilla card like Cyclops with that upside and downside of extra cards for extra health. He was beyond popular so much that the Blizzard Dev Team had to nerf his health gain to an extra 5 health instead of 10 just to make people stop auto including him in every deck. So just because a card is fun and it seems more like a meme style card, if it becomes too popular, there is always a chance it'll see a nerf. So if Arishem sees like a 60-70% play rate across all decks weeks after his release, he'll likely get a nerf of adding 15-20 cards rather than 12 to lower his consistency, in hopes of lowering his play rate.
Never placed hearthstone. Did renathal have direct counters like Darkhawk and Cassandra Nova?
I wouldn’t be surprised if they still nerfed it to be more in line with fun level on the other archetypes. I’d rather they do more cool things to up the fun, seems like every fun update they take Angela, kitty pride and Loki out back and pull their limbs off and stick them back on in all the wrong places.
I don't know. I think in the last year, Snap has grown more and more stale and tedious to play because a lot of the top meta decks aren't actually fun. They're just busted, linear combos that you either play or counter if you want to be competitive. Arishem feels like you're playing an entirely different game, and I feel engaged with all the decision making, and oddly, based on the RNG of the cards you draw, I feel like I have way more agency in figuring out what I'm going to do from turn to turn. With decks like Hela and Destroy, it's like you're just a robot going down a flow-chart. "Did I draw this? Do that." I feel like actual thought and skill are now involved to see what you can make of the random pile you drew. Nerfing Arishem *down* to the 'fun-level' of other archetypes would be to just throw in the trash a card that has rejuvenated the game for many people, and would be super-depressing. Imagine nerfing an average win-rate card because it's too fun.
You are right, I just don’t know how many arishams SD can make happen with current team. I wish it was like this at least every couple months. I still love high evo and Galactus.
Yeah Arishem gets absolutely housed against pretty much all surfer decks, and any deck that runs both Shang-Chi and Shadow King.
A lot of players also do not care for priority either. Nor do they plan at least 2 turns ahead
Yep, exactly this. Having played a good chunk of Arishem and played counter-Arishem decks, the counter decks are WAY more consistent, even against non-Arishem opponents. I have had some amazing Arishem plays...but I've also had a lot of dead hands.
yeah it’s win rate is skewed because the loki/darkhawk build is probably an A tier build by itself but it self counters and hard counters other arishem. In a week or two it’s playrate will drop and so will its win rate as a result
Honestly I don’t agree. If you’re a good player then Arishem is phenomenal! The opponent cannot read your plays at all. They don’t know your next card! In infinite ladder that means everything. Climbed from 90-100 without sweat.
Tell me when you have ever seen a 75% popularity card having positive winrate and cube rate. Do you even know how high 75% is??????
"Reducing card quality" is interesting. Do cards have a hidden "Quality" stat currently?
I would think that’d mean they’d have like a -1 power qualifier or something rather than them tiering the random cards.
Luke Cage will just get added to the deck 😂
Ahhh, I was thinking about how Binding of Isaac has a 0-4 "Item Quality" stat for its hundreds of items. Items with a higher quality were less likely to appear in most circumstances.
I think -1 power would be a fine nerf tbh that I'd be happy with
He means like the Hela nerf that took place. Hela’s revived cards have a -2 to power. Similarly, cards Arishem makes could have a -1 power modifier added to them
It would be the same thing as Hela current. Add 12 random cards in your deck with -1 power
"Shuffle only 3 or 4 cost cards into your deck"
As a surfer player, oh yeah, it's all coming together
"Shuffle 12 cards in your deck and give them -1 power."
This would actually be a buff lmao
It's relative I'm sure. As a randomly generated card there are tons that are good in dedicated decks that aren't good randomly. Think Mr. Negative or cerebro.
I would assume that means more lower cost cards
Maybe only series 1-3 cards? Just an idea
Ooh, that kind of works from a lore perspective too. Like the Celestials only mess with lower life-forms in their experiments so they only have a cache of less-powerful cards. That would open up the deck building for Arishem players because they'll NEED those higher-series cards to be competitive. I'll still end up dying to Ari-generated Doc Ock every damn time, though, lol
Maybe he can shuffle rocks, squirrels and Ultron bots in or something to.
Jesus, the deck is already pretty inconsistent with the quality of cards it gives you. Actively making it *less* consistent would be awful. Why you'd go out of your way to make the most fun card...the most fun *anything* Snap has done in a long time... unplayable is beyond me. If it had some kind of crazy win-rate, I could see it, but it's an average deck at best when it comes to winning. Literally the only justification for nerfing it would be: "The card is just too much fun!"
This is the way -- random-include depending on win-rate or series-number is not elegant solution.
I was thinking more of "fixed 2 1-cost card, 2-cost,..." and so on.
It’s not too strong
It’s not strong. Here’s some random with a turn advantage - good luck. Gives you space to load a lot of counter cards and hope Arishem covers the rest, but you can’t depend on anything. After fighting a dozen of these decks, they should be left alone until new card drops break the universe.
He's definitely viable that's all I'm sure about right now. In the short term it's really hard to judge since everyone is playing him. I have certainly had a lot of games early on in my testing where he just gave me terrible cards back to back and I had nothing but junk. From raw numbers I think on average it's fine, even on the good draws I wasn't regularly beating out any of the real heavy hitters you would expect.
Yeah people are just salty it's not as weak as they'd expected
That's the thing. First of all he is op but let's pretend he's not. A card like arishem being viable and top deck is not healthy for the game. Let's say you disagree with that too. How about his 75% winrate? This is not healthy for any game. They'll have to touch him and soon
I dont think arishems getting nerfed any time soon. If they ever need to reduce his strength, they'd probably buff darkhawk e.g. a little bit. In addition to this, we're getting cassandra nova soon who's essentially going to be another arishem hard counter
Darkhawk is already a great hard counter. I snap on turn 1 against him because darkhawk mystique or darkhawk Zola is a 2 card combo that’s super consistent to draw and beats him 90% of the time. Arishem is in a great place and feels really fresh. That’s the reason everyone’s playing him right now. But I’d be surprised if he stays in the meta 1-2 weeks from now.
I’m having a blast playing him post infinite, but I doubt I will use him next week once the ladder resets
Exactly. I’ll experiment more when less people play him and focus on the next shiny card or pass card
Maybe for you. My Darkhawk hides on the bottom of my deck.
Run Crystal and Magik. Run Nico and don’t be afraid to burn a card for the draw spell. You can even run Howard/jubilee/Ironlad if ya want cause you literally only need dark hawk/mystique/Zola in your deck to win so you actually get a ton of flexibility. Best deck I’ve been using is a negative deck surprisingly. But I’d like to try running some sort of junk package to guarantee a safe lane for me to hawk/zola. Haven’t fucked with it though
It’s been 3 days guys… The ladder is slow flooded with mirrors and counter decks idk how anyone can draw a reasonable conclusion.
The mention of card quality suggests the effect is potentially not entirely random. I hope we don't go the route of esoteric game information. Could also mean they limit the pool with card text. So change it to 0-3 cost cards or something explicit. Could also just mean a Loki or Valentina like effect where they modify cost or power. Edit: hela got the negative power nerf not loki
It almost definitely means a Hela or Valentina effect, not some esoteric range of "bad cards"
I love my arishem deck... But it's so bad lol I've played probably 20-30 games and I'd guess I have a sub 35% win rate lol
Me too, but then again, I don't have Blob, Loki, Mockingbird, or Darkhawk, so I wasn't going to be winning a lot anyway
I do have Blob, Loki and Mockingbird (Darkhawk forever eludes me) and I'm still dependent on RNG to help. I'd say in my last 20 games I've seen Blob once? More often than not my hand is full of the random cards, and I win some and lose some based on that RNG -- which is why Arishem is fine (and fun) the way he is.
Arishem is the most fun I’ve had in a while, and also the lowest cube rate I’ve had in a while lol. It’s a blast to play, and super inconsistent.
This community is so weird. The cards been out for a few days and everyone is either calling for or speculating on potential nerfs.
Nah, it's not weird. Speculation about exciting new cards and their impact on the meta is canon for every card game to ever exist.
Discussing the card game in the card game discussion subreddit is SO WEIRD
Is it really that weird when the meta in Snap is so dynamic it can change twice in one week…? A few days can be a long time for this game
Its Not tho, it shows that they have more brainengagement to that than you
I don't think you get to speak when I saw you in two posts crying about him 😭
Especially when it came out alongside a hot location that greatly benefitted it. Let’s see how it performs without +5 mana.
Arishem is an absolute crapshoot in terms of the power, cost, and playability of the cards you get from him. It’s fun chaos, but very far from being controllably OP. There’s little to no reason to *ever* nerf him, imo. Can’t we just have fun things for fun’s sake in this freaking game?
100%. It's insane that it's not even the weekend and people are flagging down devs to be like, "What'll you do if he proves to be too dominant?!" It's been a few days! He's everywhere because he's something fresh in a game that's been anything but. He's also insanely RNG dependent, which is why you get the extra energy. I've won games in fun ways and I've lost plenty to regular decks because RNG went against me, bonus energy or not. As mentioned, he's a crapshoot that can go either way like any deck. His popularity will die down once the Deadpool season begins and people start realizing he's not some auto-win design that some of these posts make him out to be.
God it would be so funny if he just adds one of every card to your deck
Arishem is so much fun for me, I get bored easily of playing my proven infinite decks, this card adds so much fun factor. I get beat playing this card, it’s not op imo. I get so tired of people always whining for a nerf within a few days of release… wish some people would just get over it… people will find ways to balance the meta.
IMO the upside of +1 energy from deckbuilding isn't completely offset by the downside of random cards in your deck, but it's close. If someone figures out how to mitigate the downside a little further it might need correction, but for now it seems fine even tho it's def. a tier one series 5 card. If someone figures out a reliable way to draw Loki every game, watch out.
Everyone keeps mentioning Loki but I just took him out of my deck and so have many top players in Snap like Lamby, even when facing Loki Arishem decks they dont do anything with my cards. Loki seems like cope for the deck, hes cool but not needed at all
Loki’s main reason for popularity at the moment is because like dark hawk, he’s pretty much a hard counter against Arishem decks. You get all the general good stuff they were hoping to out tempo you with for the exact same cost and sometimes cheaper if you also choose to run quinjet, he also helps break parity in the mirror because of that.
I can see that, may also be why he doesnt really work against me tho, my Arishem deck is running more "niche" cards Mbacku, Sunspot,etc only good hits are Mockingbird and Blob? Im mostly relying on random card generation with decent cheap cards surrounding it
Loki/Arishem is a flavor of Arishem. It's really more a Loki deck which is why you see Coulson and Fury also added to that hand. In my estimation, it also works best with Cable/Mirage and/or Agent 13/Maria Hill in it, because Arishem can play their cards too fast sometimes, leaving their hand empty. There are other flavors of Arishem that don't rely on Loki so much. You can certainly run Darkhawk/Blob/Mystique without Loki.
i thought i was going crazy.. since taking loki out of my deck i’ve had much more consistency, climbed from 58,000 to 30,000 between last night and this morning
Same went from 60000 to 45000 after removing
Whats there to be too strong about? Its literally playing on random mode
Really hope they don’t nerf him best fun I’ve had in ages,
Maybe a light nerf if anything but I don't expect much since Cassandra Nova coming out in a few weeks should be a strong counter
Arishem is fine and fun, why nerfing him ? He is played a lot basically because it’s fun.
They can also make him start in the opening hand, reducing the amount of cards you'll see during a match
The starting +1 energy from turn 1 is actually big big advantage. No matter how much card add into the deck it still a buff.
yeah, everyone knew it would be big, but holy shit its massive not gonna lie makes me wonder how much of a disadvantage high evo is having to leavce energy behind, even if that energy gives small buffs elsewhere, if playing with +1 energy and a bunch of random garbage is that strong, playing with -1 energy and small buffs in some cards must not be as strong as it seemed
The turn 5 galatus without wave or psylocke. Or loki -cost. Basically with arishem immediately they play turn 2 game at start meanwhile without arishem they just 1 turn behind.
I would only think he will get nerfed if his play rate remains high. SD wants ppl to play different decks cus it’s more fun in the long run. My thought IF he gets nerf, instead of your 12 cards, you might get only 6 or 9 of them and the rest is random. Or possibly nerf quinjet interactions.
Nerfing quinjet interactions seems to be better since lowering the amount of random cards is kinda of a buff not a nerf.
Not getting less random cards, you’re get more at the cost of your starting deck - before Arishem adds his cards. Maybe at the beginning of the game, you lose 3 or 6 of your cards from your starting deck and get like 15 or 18 random cards. Gives less of a chance to get blob, phasto or rogue or whatever ppl throw in to boost it. Arishem play rate has decrease since Tuesday. I think SD going to wait and see.
Yeah an effect like, destroy the x top cards from your deck and shuffle 12 random would make him less consistent
Unpredictability and +1 Energy are the core mechanics of Arishem, the +12 shuffled cards is great but as the pool increases, so does Arishem's risk of use. **TL;DR: Arishem user feels its fine, believes that adjusting the cards that work with it instead to ease the benefit of +1 energy will be the course.** I see a few avenues based on how they would like to adjust Arishem's performance: Unpredictability is an important aspect of a card game, psychologically affecting your opponent is important and needs to be treated fairly in a card's view. If the community understands a certain card is oppressive, it will affect them, its a lucky shot if agent 13 produces Loki, whom we know is particularly strong and is obviously being looked at for performance because of its ability to swing games. Feel free to replace Loki with whatever card you hate to play against. 12 iterations of agent 13 for my opponent's deck without board real estate being compromised is daunting. Most of us have gotten comfortable checking our opponents deck size, rolling our eyes at what seems to be Agatha, slightly more wary if we see Thanos. Quick calculations if the deck we use can counter or overwhelm it and if its worth our time/effort to play the match. Lots of things follow this and are important to either gaining or losing a player's focus in a competitive card game. There are arguments to be had if this should be something the devs should alleviate but remaining calm under pressure is also a form of skill, so it swings both ways on players to be responsible for how they play, even when it hurts being on the losing side. Using Arishem, the unpredictability of your opponent being unable to read your deck archetype is another benefit, and in my experience using it (take with 1-8 grains of salt), is a much higher weighted benefit so long as you are playing against less experienced players. More variation in what to counter or what to expect and its easier for your opponent to lose track of your playstyle and are more prone to mistakes, which is an immense benefit to any "Best-of-\_\_\_\_\_" type of play we may have. This is my own personal benefit, as I enjoy playing decks that leave my opponent guessing, regardless of my win/loss ratio and because of the nature of this game, I will win more than I lose so long as I keep playing. I believe this is an important distinction to make because it plays into a direct objective: Player retention **To adjust unpredictability:** the card could lose the range of other card generation, such as excluding other big bad labelled cards, or in the worst case scenario, have a specified pool of cards Arishem can generate. Continued below:
Energy is a much larger umbrella of benefits and issues. Having +1 energy is an immediate effect on playstyle in general, and if it weren't for the balance of +12 random cards except Kang in the deck, it would powercreep deck building entirely so this is an important thing to factor. Every card needs to be able to access conditions to play itself otherwise you've wasted a deck slot. +1 Energy means Arishem can be played on 6. It is the lesser option of accessibility and is an easier avenue to adjust in the future than say, always forcing a turn 7 to guarantee 7 energy to benefit only Arishem at face value, with the negatives being elongated games and lets not pretend the community wants that. Because this is polarizing and will sweep deck construction of every archetype in preparation for a possible and sometimes inevitable turn 7. **A nuclear option on adjustment could be "Arishem costs less per card generated currently in play"** or some similar text to imply that the more randomly generated cards produced by Arishem that are on the field, the cheaper he is to play, freely allowing Arishem to cost 6 or less, but at the obvious expense of removing the +1 max energy. 24 effective cards with a 6 energy cap is much worse in this regard without a considerable number of those being cost reduction focused, reducing the effectiveness of the flavor of the archetype in the first place, which is the randomness and all encompassing access, thereby significantly reducing card usage and quite possibly killing the card entirely. Another possibility is "Cards generated by Arishem cannot have their costs reduced or increased", adding more text to a card is rarely a positive as conditions get awkward and simplified descriptions being replaced with keywords wherever possible is important. This does pose a problem, however, as an almost free Mobius for your opponent means you've now eliminated the inclusion of Ravonna, Pixie, Sera, Phastos (50% effectiveness maximum on a good day), Mr Negative, Zabu, and whatever cost modifying cards I forgot, in your deck and if they were generated, are now dead draws for you, and those cards by nature have low power. This is less impactful compared to the nuclear option, but an issue nonetheless until the card pool is so large it no longer matters, but by then I imagine the game has changed almost entirely. **The likely adjustment**, is a first wave of card introductions that, after the scheduled release of archetype enhancing cards rolls out (spiders and the like), would be to add more accessible cards for disruption, both for the opponent and oneself: More rocks in the deck Cards that, when played, destroy/discard a random or condition targeted card in your deck Cards that, when drawn, prevent an opponent from *playing more than one card that turn similar to sandman* Cards that, when drawn, prevent an opponent from *drawing next turn similar to widow's bite* Cards that, when drawn, are immediately played if there is available space (most likely with negative or 0 power) Cards that, when drawn, cause your opponent to lose energy the next turn Increasing the pool of double edged or self inflicting cards will hamper the effectiveness of the pool for Arishem, they also increase the power of junk and viper focused decks, and to be honest are not a bad idea as a collection filler so long as there are not too many released in a row or player sentiment will decline into the negative. **An ineffectual adjustment**, would be to remove the energy addition completely, and buffing Arishem's personal stats. Similar to the power increase on High Evolutionary, Arishem isn't a card we would like to play unless we have to. 7 power is useable but we never want to see it at 7 cost. 6/9 is a common statline that again barely benefits but would be slightly more effective if it was the singular option left to play. As card complexity and flexibility increases, the worse this adjustment is in comparison. Continued further
**Another more likely adjustment**, would be the targeting of cards that have high amounts of synergy with Arishem, especially those that compensate for the archetype's core weaknesses, cost and random draw 11 out of 23 remaining cards are still within the player's control. Cards that would typically lead themselves to be considered for a deck like this would be: Cards that increase power of your other cards with loose conditions for benefit: America Chavez, Forge, Okoye, Shuri, Blue Marvel Cards that reduce your costs: Quinjet, Pixie, Wave, Mr Negative, Sera Cards that play from the deck: M'Baku, Jubilee, Iron Lad, Lockjaw, Blink Cards that I believe would be targeted: Quinjet, stat change from 1/2 -> 1/0 feels like a weak adjustment but 0 power from an ongoing you want to keep on the board hurts no matter where you put it without compensation. Phastos, stat change from 3/3 -> 2/1 while removing the -1 cost form the effect and reducing the +2 power to +1 power. Loki, power reduction from 4/5 to 4/3 or 4/2, and the clarification of adding to your hand instead of transforming to bring back dependence on Collector for additional power and allowing Quinjet and other similar cost reduction cards to be almost required to make the card more difficult to use in general, while being a buff to widow's bite and whatever future card addition prevention cards will be released. An adjustment would likely be to limit the transformation/addition to 3 cards while maintaining statline. --------- Until the dust settles, we won't know how they want to adjust Arishem, because both options listed by either adding more cards or reducing card quality are broad enough that they can ultimately not matter. Play usage is going to be up because its new, +1 energy is powerful, and a new archetype always raises the skill floor of the playerbase (playerbase meeting the floor and being able to reach the ceiling is irrelevant). Arishem is still going to struggle against the usual decks: consistent destroy, junk and disrupt, and a much luckier Arishem mirror.
Eyy that's me
I started playing a Darkhawk deck as soon as Arishem dropped and went from 85 to Infinite within a day. If anything he seems too easy to counter.
Yup. And just wait till Cassandra comes out in a couple months. If the card doesn't change, he'll have 2 direct counters.
No clue how powerful he is if all everyone does is play Arishem mirror matches and shove Darkhawk in any old deck to hard counter.
This is SD we're talking about after all. They'll most likely just hit Quinjet again and call it a day.
On Reveal: your next 1-cost card that didn’t start in your deck costs (1) less (but not less than 1).
The card hasn't even been out for a week. Give it time, people.
So you’re saying the developers can do anything?
Not only is there a card coming that abuses his effect. There already is. Darkhawk and Cassandra are gonna ruin that deck. Cards like Goose is also incredibly good. Since most of them rely on 4+ cost cards. While arishem can definetly be strong if he hits a good curve. It's all up to RNG. You see their RNG/curve be solid turn 1-3/4 and they haven't snapped yet. It's an easy retreat. In 2 months this is gonna be the next Loki. The "fun" card you add to some random decks overtime with newer cards.
Arishem has been a mega fun card, I spend a lot of turns not able to spend all my energy, and it’s an auto lose vs darkhawk mystique.
I can’t imagine he will prove “too strong.” My win rate with him over the pat week has been 50% at best, due to the unpredictability of his generating mechanic. True, the extra energy point is a big advantage, but not overwhelming when you have no idea whAt is coming out of the draw pipe each turn.
Adding more cards would probably be the nerf, but it's also somewhat a buff in different ways? And vice versa. I guess they would really need to specify what cards, at what cost will be generated, but even that could be too good. Honestly don't know how they would go about nerfing Arishem without indirectly buffing him. But he is balanced. :/
He is fine as is.
I know this may get hate but if anything, Loki is the one that needs a nerf. Arishem is strong with the +1 energy since turn 1, but the worst case scenario is that your hand gets crowded with shitty stuff, then Loki comes in hand and steals a new set of synergy cards from the opponent, then you not only have more energy than your opponent, but also - 1 to a whole set of new cards, kinda over the top if you ask me. I know everyone loves Loki, but he feels like Zabu or the old stones, the more they prolong the adjustment the more broken it'll become with every new deck.
Loki has hard counters in mobius and combo decks. If loki ever comes to a point where he is truly all you are seeing and you aren't playing a combo deck, throw in mobius and their chances of winning drastically decrease. If your deck can't accommodate that tech slot then you need to just play a combo deck (phoenix force, hela, tribunal, wong decks, etc.), because the odds of loki being able to make use of your cards effectively is much lower than yours. Again, this is only if he's really common, you always have the chance to run into a deck when it's off-meta that counters yours. Just like any other top tier deck he cycles in-between being meta or not. This along with clear counters such as above makes him fine in my opinion.
This is why I’m spamming ravonna negative till play rates go down lol. You can usually go over the top of Blobs with good negative hits, Loki will never pull a good hand from you, and you get to include Darkhawk for free because even without synergy a flipped darkhawk is still huge even against normal decks.
loki is probably the only card in marvel snap that allows a higher form of skill ceilling, nerf it would outright kill the game for anyone that seeks that maybe move is at that tier too, of "very high skill ceilling decks", but cant confirm
How exactly is Loki high skill ceiling? If you play the game fairly often and are familiar with the basic archetypes of different decks there’s no ceiling to his play.
Loki mirrors are stupid tho. Loki is his own counter; when he gets too prevalent everyone gets tired of playing 2-3 Lokis, four Qinjets, and 2 Coulson every game.
Maybe reduce the max hand size to 6?
Dumbest comment on the thread hands down....
Not anymore. 😘
It's a fun stupid card that introduces chaos. The popularity will drop off once the new season starts. If and when I hit infinity I like to play random decks, this is the full random.
Was struggling to hit infinite all season. With arishem went from 81 to infinite in two nights
So lame people calling for a nerf already. Look what they did to Thanos? He’s not nearly as good now
Thanos was changed because he was broken (design wise), not because people whined. And no shit he's not as good now - would be a pointless nerf if the card didn't become weaker, wouldn't it?
Which would we be the buff? Generating more or fewer cards?
SD doesn't nerf cards only because they're strong, but sometimes just because they're played too often or are in too many decks; like my gal Chavez.
Chavez was too strong, but also, it's probably the funnest card in recent history, why wouldn't everybody play it? The meta isn't homogeneous because Arishem is a different game every time
Wonder if the generated cards are messing with play rate/win rate stats. I’d guess they can separate them out but not 100% sure.
Reducing card quality? That would be wack.
I’m very curious what quality means. Would it be like “12 random cards from series 3”? Or maybe something like “twelve random cards with under 10 power”
Reducing card quality will just kill him instantly
It's lame cuz if something is uber popular they decided to change it, whether it was needed or not just to change stuff up
I’m like 30% in Arishem mirrors because I was playing a fun build and didn’t do the whole Darkhawk/Blolb shenanigans. I switch to playing Mr. negative teched for Arishem or Ravonna Athena decks also teched for Arishem. Had genuinely a 90% winrate, the archetype is very exploitable. It just feels oppressive because of first it being a new deck, first big Blob deck is a while so now everyone has to remember how to beat Blob, and lastly it is 75% of the meta. Of course it’ll feel bad to lose to Arishem because you play it so often that you remember almost all of your loses to the deck because that’s all that’s being played
I am baffled more people are not throwing a random-ass Darkhawk on their deck and racking easy wins vs Arishen.
All added cards have power reduced by 2, Hela style. Massive nerf honestly.
Bei reducing the quality they probably mean something like -1 Power, similar to Helas Nerf, right?
The agatha special. Am I the only one that feels that reducing the power of cards feels like a bad balancing act?
So basically, if people are having to much fun with him, they will just let him add trash cards only to the deck.
And everyone thought it was a "meme/fun deck"... now they whisper about a nerf.
Arishem has brought all the fun back to this game for me. It’s the draft mode I never knew I needed. It’s better than draft mode because I don’t know what I’m drawing next. I love playing it in Conquest.
DO. NOT. TOUCH. ARISHEM! Just kidding.
You know what I think is funny is that a lot of people seemed to think that Arishem would not be very good because of the randomness. I personally think it isn't overpowered but I'm glad it is definitely viable because it is a very fun card to play.
Damn we nerfing fun now? Can’t have anything.
I feel it’s perfectly balanced. Only a good player will make the most out of the 12 random cards AND use them to their advantage
If they nerf Arishem I'm literally going to quit yes he is good in conquest cause your opponent can't predict your cards every round but in normal games it's not that good it's just fun playing him
This card just fucking came out man lmao how is this dude already hitting this guy with questions about a nerf
Reddit is full of garbage takes that’s what I’ve learned after joining a week ago. I think I was better off not knowing this sub existed. Besides news this sub is full of bad players with god awful takes.
Fun =/= Overpowered. You’re not seeing Arishem because he’s overpowered. Not even the community data, for how limited it is, supports that notion. Glenn confirms the same that Arishem isn’t raising alarm internally either. You’re seeing Arishem because he’s fun, random, a new archetype and the newest card released. Every new card sees play in the first 1-2 weeks. Always will. Then they’ll taper off OR *rise* after their Spotlight week (which is indicative of them being problematic). Arishem also belongs to the same archetype-creating class of cards as High Evo, Loki, Zemo, Thanos, Mr. Negative etc. So sees an enduring play rate compared to standalone, archetype supporting or tech cards.
If they nerf him in the near future I'm really not gonna spend anymore money on this game
Im sure he will get the hela treatment, like -1 power for the cards or so
In all honesty, that would probably kill the card. Arishem's strength is letting you play ahead of curve. Part of the curve is how much power is an average value for any given cost. His downside is that he clogs your deck and you can't plan around what you get. Reducing power means you aren't playing ahead of curve any more. Yes you are technically playing a 3 drop on turn 2 but now it's more similar in power to a good 2 drop that someone could just plan to have in their deck. If you ruin the benefit to the card there would be basically no reason to play an Arishem deck instead of just a normal meta deck with either an OP combo or just the best cards for each energy cost. If they think he needs a nerf, I think they'll have to adjust the number of cards added. I can't see any other change working without completely ruining Arishem. Delaying the energy gain would also completely ruin him.
It’s just too premature for anyone to judge his power level given the meta environment
I agree it's too early to tell if he needs adjustment but I do still think it's easy enough to gauge what kind of adjustment would potentially work if needed and what kind would kill the card. Messing with Arishem's only advantage (playing ahead of curve) is not going to be the way to nerf him if he ends up needing one. Messing with his disadvantage (clogging your deck) probably is. I think if anything the thing that seems too busted right now is that I tend to draw my own cards far more than I thought I would. So playing ahead of curve and still landing my own planned OP cards/combos does feel like it might end up being too good.
Its fun that im down 1 energy the entire game and Arishem gets to run every tech card for free
Um, it doesn't run every tech card?
"Hey Google, what does adding an entire decks worth of randomized cards do for me?" "According to common sense, you moron, you will have the potential to draw any tech card in the game randomly - how did you not know that already?"
Don't be an asshole. There's no need for insults. What's wrong with your life that you need to insult strangers about a video game? Any =/= Every
Evades the point and obvious humor to feel insulted and try to gain sympathy. Yeah, my life is the problem. Lmao
Any=/=Every. Point stands.
Since earlier today I drew one of my deck and the rest arishem cards and all of them were one cost including 2 mbaku, up to turn 6 where I drew hulk I'm not sure how they can reduce quality. No hulk?
Let him add 18 cards instead of 12, the intention is for him to be fun and chaos, but the fact that its performing that well is probably a problem
If he wasn't strong people wouldn't be playing him. There's plenty of "fun" cards in the game that saw no play because they don't win. Card's busted but it's okay, the nerf will come down and I'll be back to see what the defence force has to say.
Basically outing yourself that you don’t know how to have fun. I bet you’re one of those people that retreats in Infinite instead of playing the whole match.
Making all cards random would be nice.
Absolutely no one would play “District X, but 24 now!”
But I thought you people were lying through your teeth about how it's "For the fun" - and not about him being complete bullshit?
It is fun, if you got to choose half the deck to begin with. Total random isn't fun, some slightly controlled randomness and chaos is super fun, it turns out. Also the +1 energy to lessen the sting of sometimes just totally bricked hands.
The gimmick of the card is to have a big random unreliable deck. This would make it that way. Currently the card is way too reliable and opponents with Arishem seem to draw cards like Quinjet, Blob or Mockingbird pretty often. I don't know about you, but I think a 4 drop being played on turn 2 is quite broken, even if it's a random one. Mockingbird being free 9 power most of the time and Blob being almost guaranteed to win a location by himself is also quite powerful that very few decks can match. Arishem decks also seem to run a lot of counters (or get random ones) to screw the opponent.
Probably in September - when they have to push other cards. Probably at first something around (like blob) and then cutting the synergy with Quinjet like the Stones for Thanos.
Honestly this makes me not want to get the card
Eff this guy
Cable is a better card than arishem, leave him alone!
I mean sure in ladder not too strong but him being the sole beta of conquest I think says a lot. May not be consistent but most definitely is strong.
Before everyone freaks out, this is definitely not them saying they are going to nerf him. Just that internally they discuss what to do if they put something out and it ends up way busted in a way they didn't anticipate (Either too dominate or completely irrelevant). Arishem has been out a few days. Players spent the first 48 hours thinking he was a bad meme, finding out he's actually quite good, building hard counter decks, then building decks that counter the counter decks that also play into Arishem. The card had a 75% playrate due to curiosity and hype, which is going to warp a meta and not give valuable info on its strength. You'll know his true strength in a couple of weeks when players go back to other decks and there is data about how strong Arishem is into decks that aren't other Arishem decks, Darkhawk, or clog.