It teaches you to know who you don’t wanna be as a leader. I worked for great leaders and people who should have been kicked out years before. You just learn and never become the shitty boss
The military justifies their behavior. I read about toxic leadership from military articles and such. They basically say, *this is bad, dont do it, but they're the reason things get done and therefore they climb the ladder sooner and we want them around*. Like...What a way to perpetuate toxic leadership cycle. You DONT have to be toxic to get things done.
Then they say 'don't call it toxic leadership' because it's offensive, so they use another term to take the accountability away but all it is a facade of what's really going on.
The main problem that comes from a metric driven line of work is that toxic leadership that accomplishes the mission is successful in the micro. In the macro it caused societal, cultural and retention problems.
We promote off accomplishment of the mission. Leading is hard. The other problem is that it's hard to quantify being a decent person because lazy people write ratings based off of how, "X made so many things happen compared to his peers." The other thing is that the military isn't just a job, at the end of the day our job is national defense from the desk jockey to the dude on the line and sometimes what we consider toxic is us just being too sensitive. But not always, as a private I thought one of my NCOs was the biggest prick ever, dude was constantly riding me and making sure I was the absolute best soldier I could be. When I was in Iraq and Afghanistan I finally understood what he meant by what he wanted from me. But he had the emotional intelligence to be able to explain the WHY to me. Too many leaders can't explain the WHY and if you can't do that do you actually understand the point of what we're doing or are you continuing the culture of toxic leadership.
>The main problem that comes from a metric driven line of work is that toxic leadership that accomplishes the mission is successful in the micro. In the macro it caused societal, cultural and retention problems.
I totally agree. The problem is that toxic leadership works pretty well in the short term. Then after a few years, people burn out, decide they hate the military, and leave. But there is no metric tying that back to the toxic leadership they were dealing with. That toxic leader has already PCSed to another location, and already been given credit for the success at their previous billet, with no accountability for leaving an epidemic of poor morale and low motivation in their wake.
If anyone says/thinks toxic leadership is offensive, you tell that lil baby buttercup to suck it the fuck up! Just like anyone else would in response to someone complaining about anything.
They aren't the reason things get done, it's usually that they're the only ones left standing after their shit leadership.
If you have 5 people who work a job, but 1 is so insufferable that the other 4 quit, you have no choice but the promote the last one standing.
Had to have been written by one of them. If anything I always kind of assumed a large portion of their toxicity came from understanding they had no idea what they were doing and so defaulted to being dickheads that created busy work for everyone.
They rose through the ranks because they knew who and how to brown nose.
>It teaches you to know who you don’t wanna be as a leader.
I wish everyone thought like this. When i was in the mentality was "i got fucked up all the time, so i cant wait to get promoted so I can fuck people up all the time."
The ones who learn always get out.
Good take. I did a career but at one point I wanted to get out because of leadership until I wise soul suggested that if I stayed in that I could be the leader that I would wanted to follow.
I can't speak about all the military, but the Army's biggest problem is they don't evaluate for leadership potential or problems early enough. Sure the BCAP is great, but battalion level is too late. A company grade officer can absolutely demolish units and people with minimal effort, and minimal scrutiny. The company level is where an officer can do the most damage when left unchecked, conversely it is also where they can do the most good.
I had a Battery commander who was rapid cycling bi-polar, within 5 minutes of lecturing me I was the worst lieutenant he had ever worked with and the best in the Battalion. He honestly broke my faith in the Army, in a way that never really recovered.
The army is a professional parent child relationship
You might be good but your mentor will put you down for screw ups and then tell you how good you are
Fun fact there is talk about implementing a Company commamder assessment program, should have a trial run this fy. Who knows how it’ll turn out tho 🤷♂️
Commercial world == corporate or private sector?
If so, I do come from that world and was privileged who I worked for/my career field before joining this world
When I was a private, working on helicopters we would be all cleaned up, parts tagged and put away by 1650. Leadership would disappear until 1830 for a “meeting” and come out and say “0630 PT”. I vowed that if I was ever in a leadership position I would not be that toxic leadership.
Fast forward:
I’m now a Sgt that has filled the gap in a flight platoon as a platoon Sgt, just until our new one showed up.
I see a 1630 “training meeting” on the schedule. My guys are all ready to leave and I said “keep your phones on you, if nothing changes I’ll see you here at the hangar for PT at 0630.
Top decides that 0630 PT is a ruck at the ski hill on post and that we should all be in BDU’s instead of PT gear at the hanger.
I use the alert roster and NOT ONE OF MY GODDAMN SOLDIERS ANSWERED THE PHONE.
0630, about five of the 20 in my platoon showed up. I saluted top and said “15 out of ranks 1sg.”
Fortunately, being in an aviation unit in Alaska at the time was akin to being in a bad national guard unit, so there were no real consequences to this.
The next time a meeting came out, I made them stay. I became that toxic leader, but only because my soldiers tried to fuck me.
I'm so sorry.
I heard the news our agents and commanders no longer have authority over assault cases as of this year, they are now handled by third-party agencies.
I've spoken to special agents in the military who would have handled those cases differently. Unfortunately, the commander or whomever would take over and be the one who made the last call.
Toxic leaders getting ranked up for allegedly getting shit done, that does not imply it is ethical, moral, and done well.
Go volunteer for one of those cooler units option 40 or SF or psyops…. What I did I couldn’t stand it wanted to be separated from it all and use that as your motivation to pass when shit gets hard haha do you want to serve under toxic ass holes or work with the pinnacle of mankind? But then great leadership ruined you too…. Then when you experience anything less it’s depressing. Also always going to be shit no matter where you go so even at the tip of the spear there will always be drama. Best of luck. I assumed you were in army if not in army look into other avenues other branches offer
I mean, ya. I just wanted to vent and hear other people's stories. I didnt post to hear advice or have anybody fix my problems/give advice. It is actually just the waiting game atm.
I experienced a lot of negative shit in the civilian world then one day I found a great company and a great boss and colleagues. I was very lucky. I won't speak to everyone in that company but my particular environment was beautiful to experience.
Then when I first joined the military, also great experience. I didn't experience the dark side in any of that, until I cross trained and now I unlocked pandoras box with this one unit, lol. It's temporary, maybe for almost a year to go until I move on again. I know there's going to be shit everywhere, thats envitable, and I've been cognizant and not living under a rock. My old assignments drama was funny and trivial. It wasn't toxic, though. The unit I am in now, I'm talking about *TOXIC*, like mental health down the drain, like, really scary dont trust anyone and keep to self.
I want bond with peeps on here who don't know me and I wanna shoot the shit with anons here to feel less alone. I think we call this 'coping'.
How long have you been in for? What’s your mos? I didn’t mean to preach sorry really just wanted explain how I got out of it. But then when I left my great leadership subpar leadership was even more stressful. Iv been on every end of the spectrum. To the point where I rage quit and walked away from a 6 figure job. now I’m back in school stating over at 36. So I get it.
I started going to behavioral health because I had an abusive team leader and a PSG who instigated and even encouraged it.
My team leader came up to me after I started, pull me aside and said "I dont care if you kill yourself. Ive had three other soldiers attempt suicide under me, and you will not be the last"
My entire chain of command was tracking because I told my BH psychiatrist, because ngl, after he said that I really did want to kill myself. Because i felt completely and utterly alone. I was being abused for well over a year(it was my first year and this was before the army got serious about shit like this) and it was just a breaking point for me.
He's still in the Army.
My husband has two weeks left In the army after being in for 8 years. He made SSG in 4.5 years and has never been in trouble.. he got attacked by two pit bulls the end of august with 16 puncture wounds and we took him to closest emergency room. He was late that day and they took his rank along with extra duty and no pay! It has ruined any positive feelings hw had left for the army.. although I know it’s not that big of a deal, who cares at the end of the day. It just has us leaving feeling really down.. the army HIs leaders
screwed him after 8 years we of investing our entire lives! So disheartening
Had a fantastic 10 years of AD Army - just great leaders-left for the USAFR -did 15 years- biggest mistake- the Air Farce had just terrible leadership. I had a heart attack and was in the hospital and got reprimanded by an O-6 for missing drill- btw my wife informed them. They demanded proof -even though I had a perfect record of literally everything-PT -attendance everything. When I emailed my chain my hospital records - I got another verbal reprimand for “not having planning well enough to inform them earlier” so not being able to tell the future. My entire 15 years was like that - almost every person above O-4 were azzclowns.
I had a very good experience with my initial leadership before PCSing to where I am now. I know they're there. I want to work on having more of them.
For now, who knows what the future holds (in my little corner of the world).
It’s fucked beyond repair at this point. No real leadership amongst any branch, regardless if they have high rank. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and just wading through trying to get to their end point.
I get it, but I think you just haven’t experienced the contrasting lives yet. Leadership is a learned skill. You are lucky to be in the military where you are surrounded by leadership at many levels. You are probably a leader at some level unless you’re brand new enlisted. Leadership doesn’t really exist much in the civilian world. There just isn’t a need for leadership in the civilian world much but there is a need for managers. A lot of people get those two confused because of the many overlapping scenarios. When you become a civilian you aren’t likely to ever experience leadership again unless you’re the coach for your kids sports team or you work for a visionary like Elon Musk. A visionary will lead you to support their vision and make it reality.
You have to understand the unique position you are in. You are surrounded by adults of various ages all thrown into leadership positions and learning leadership in real time. Leadership is learned by trial and error as well as teaching it and being taught it. The best leaders have years of experience going through the trial and errors stages where they learn from mistakes and constantly seek to improve their leadership. Over time the errors become fewer but never are eradicated. It’s why the older dogs like generals tend to be better than lieutenants. Initially as a new leader you are experimenting. You’re trying your own initial style, your taking into consideration and implementing what other leaders have said to do. You’re figuring out what works. You’re experiencing failures and self doubt and overcoming challenges. You also get to engage with all these leaders and experience their leadership. You see what it’s like as a leader and follower. You don’t realize it but you are being molded amongst everyone else who is being molded. Yes, some take better shape faster and it’s noticeable. Some old dogs have the old military mentality etc. but you’re getting to learn and experience leadership where most adults never even learn it at all and they become managers.
You’re in the best place to learn how to be the best leader you can be. Then when you leave that world that is military, leadership won’t even be relevant. It’s like obsolete after. Most civilians you meet will never be as good a leader as the people you’re complaining about. The ones you’re complaining about are often toxic yes, but all leaders are imperfect. You won’t be perfect either. When you get out you will be a better leader than all of your peers simply because you were in the military and experienced that leadership molding process to some extent. You’ll see managers who claim to be leaders and walk around so prideful with their head held high. You’ll see it and think back to the military and chuckle about how these so called “civilian leaders” would never be able to lead a band of brothers and sisters to run toward gunfire rather than away from it.
To embrace and move into the high threat area risking life, eye sight or limb rather than to seek safety. To put their life in jeopardy for something bigger than themselves and to increase the likelihood of their teammates surviving. Leadership for these extremes is unique in and of itself. On the battlefield when your initial reaction may be to take cover, hide and go internal, it might be that SSgt you hate so much the screams at you to wake the F*^% up and fire back. Some people need to be screamed at and some people need to be told it’s ok to cry just please fire back. You’ll look back and miss it like all these vets do. Then you’ll realize how special the military is and the person you’ve become.
The toxic leadership is under pressure not to have any of their members do stupid things
The people doing stupid things like DUi or fighting or whatever are the first ones to cry about being picked up from jail and how no one cares about them if they have to stay in jail
While they may be one of the first to cry, that doesn't address that actual problem. I've seen many great officers leave soley because they hate the toxic bs put on them.
the army is like any large mega corp
there are rules for safety, saving money, etc that many people at the bottom might not understand. workflow rules. processes for having work done between units.
I do IT and in larger companies things are very controlled and lots of red tape but we have less downtime issues than companies where people just make any change without going through the process. and the red tape way is faster and better in the end
My last employer it was all CYA and half my job was logging data to prove things weren't my fault. and the VP i reported to didn't make things better
my wife is a VP now and we both work remote and I hear her on her meetings all day and she deals with the civilian world of E4 mafia shammers as well. and then add the people that do things wrong on purpose because the right way takes an extra second
Leadership is an art
Its not an exact science that there is formula to follow
Leadership is about accomplishing the task/goal
Its not about how you feel about the leadership
They could do better
But leaders are people, not robots, with their different personalities
Thats why we have the Pattons, Eisenhowers, McArthurs, Bradleys, Montgomerys, Zhukovs, Chuikovs, Rommels
All of them are flawed? Some are Ruthless?
But they all accomplished their objectives
>McArthur
it was McArthur. he looked down on the japanese and left a big hole in his defenses that was a mountain. The Japanese climbed it and got behind the americans and that was it for the defense of the phillipines
so he escaped but his army had to surrender
Monty made plenty of bad decisions that lost entire big battles and got units wiped out. Some of the allied leaders hated working with him too
Patton slapped a soldier. Zhukov used plenty of human wave assaults like the russians are doing now
McArthur wasnt the only racist
Even that british general defending singapore had the same feelings against the japanese
Even Eisenhower
Commenting why McArthur accepted the title marshall from Philippine Prez "a banana republic"
the british invented the concept and tactics of carrier and land based aircraft in naval warfare and lost to the japanese fighting the way they invented while they fought the old way
He was unlucky i guess
Didnt he send his planes to look for japanese planes?
Then returned, refuel, had lunch
Thats the time the japanese planes caught them
How about if his planes were not bombed?
Army uses the term “leadership” too often. They will just write a person off based on technicalities for their own benefit. If you have a shitty peer that your nco likes, you’ll be compared to whatever it is that they’re doing. “Useless bs”. And while you had to miss boards because you’re more busy and dedicated to the act of leadership (lol) than they are, you get negative marks
The biggest issue with military leadership is the lack of consistency.
Leaders change every 2 to 3 years. Each new leader wants to be noticed, so they work hard to make sure that they do. The easiest way to do that is to change everything.
Two years later, new leader arrives, changes everything back.
Ive seen guys get into fist fights and get away with just a talking to while other guys have been put under investigation because of a he-said-she said scenario.
The military cares more about who you know than how good you are at your job.
saying “we care about you” while also standing outside in 95° weather for 30+ minutes in NWUS with people passing out and they said the same shit they did last week and the week before and refuse to do it over the 1mc.
I once had to explain to my CO that my OIC was trying to kill his dog because it was a cheaper than putting it a kennel for his summer vacation, and that's why my OIC's wife was hiding the dog at my soldier's house.
I gave up after that.
"Hey Sargeant, I never got my sign on bonus."
"Private, we got more important things to worry about. Now grab a broom and go to the motor pool"
I never got my sign-on bonus.
Oh god this brought back another memory. So I activated after 9/11 and got sent to warcom on Coronado island, San Dog. It was cool as shit, but I had an E=5 that was a complete ass kisser. He was ok as far as knowledge and trained me decently. Thing that got me was all about shortcuts and stuff to get things done faster and all. As soon as this fucker made E6 he came to me and was like hey remember all those shortcuts I told you, well dont do them anymore because I might get in trouble for it now so I will be monitoring you. I was like dude really. It was supposed to have been a 6 months activations, but it turned to almost 2 years. I was like dude I know wtf I am doing just go back to your desk. I was considering reenlisting too but that kind of put me off and I didn't extend the next time I was up. Oh wellz.
The difference between military and civilian leadership is military leadership is more likely to get you killed when they mess up. Look at what happened to the Israelis.
It teaches you to know who you don’t wanna be as a leader. I worked for great leaders and people who should have been kicked out years before. You just learn and never become the shitty boss
The military justifies their behavior. I read about toxic leadership from military articles and such. They basically say, *this is bad, dont do it, but they're the reason things get done and therefore they climb the ladder sooner and we want them around*. Like...What a way to perpetuate toxic leadership cycle. You DONT have to be toxic to get things done. Then they say 'don't call it toxic leadership' because it's offensive, so they use another term to take the accountability away but all it is a facade of what's really going on.
The main problem that comes from a metric driven line of work is that toxic leadership that accomplishes the mission is successful in the micro. In the macro it caused societal, cultural and retention problems. We promote off accomplishment of the mission. Leading is hard. The other problem is that it's hard to quantify being a decent person because lazy people write ratings based off of how, "X made so many things happen compared to his peers." The other thing is that the military isn't just a job, at the end of the day our job is national defense from the desk jockey to the dude on the line and sometimes what we consider toxic is us just being too sensitive. But not always, as a private I thought one of my NCOs was the biggest prick ever, dude was constantly riding me and making sure I was the absolute best soldier I could be. When I was in Iraq and Afghanistan I finally understood what he meant by what he wanted from me. But he had the emotional intelligence to be able to explain the WHY to me. Too many leaders can't explain the WHY and if you can't do that do you actually understand the point of what we're doing or are you continuing the culture of toxic leadership.
>The main problem that comes from a metric driven line of work is that toxic leadership that accomplishes the mission is successful in the micro. In the macro it caused societal, cultural and retention problems. I totally agree. The problem is that toxic leadership works pretty well in the short term. Then after a few years, people burn out, decide they hate the military, and leave. But there is no metric tying that back to the toxic leadership they were dealing with. That toxic leader has already PCSed to another location, and already been given credit for the success at their previous billet, with no accountability for leaving an epidemic of poor morale and low motivation in their wake.
If anyone says/thinks toxic leadership is offensive, you tell that lil baby buttercup to suck it the fuck up! Just like anyone else would in response to someone complaining about anything.
They aren't the reason things get done, it's usually that they're the only ones left standing after their shit leadership. If you have 5 people who work a job, but 1 is so insufferable that the other 4 quit, you have no choice but the promote the last one standing.
Had to have been written by one of them. If anything I always kind of assumed a large portion of their toxicity came from understanding they had no idea what they were doing and so defaulted to being dickheads that created busy work for everyone. They rose through the ranks because they knew who and how to brown nose.
>It teaches you to know who you don’t wanna be as a leader. I wish everyone thought like this. When i was in the mentality was "i got fucked up all the time, so i cant wait to get promoted so I can fuck people up all the time." The ones who learn always get out.
Good take. I did a career but at one point I wanted to get out because of leadership until I wise soul suggested that if I stayed in that I could be the leader that I would wanted to follow.
I can't speak about all the military, but the Army's biggest problem is they don't evaluate for leadership potential or problems early enough. Sure the BCAP is great, but battalion level is too late. A company grade officer can absolutely demolish units and people with minimal effort, and minimal scrutiny. The company level is where an officer can do the most damage when left unchecked, conversely it is also where they can do the most good. I had a Battery commander who was rapid cycling bi-polar, within 5 minutes of lecturing me I was the worst lieutenant he had ever worked with and the best in the Battalion. He honestly broke my faith in the Army, in a way that never really recovered.
The army is a professional parent child relationship You might be good but your mentor will put you down for screw ups and then tell you how good you are
Fun fact there is talk about implementing a Company commamder assessment program, should have a trial run this fy. Who knows how it’ll turn out tho 🤷♂️
Just wait until you set yourself up in the commercial world...
Commercial world == corporate or private sector? If so, I do come from that world and was privileged who I worked for/my career field before joining this world
*"I have an open door policy and if you ever fucking use it I'll have an article 15 for you before you leave my office"*
Oh my god, I hate that this happened to me. How to get on the shit list 101.
[удалено]
I mean... I appreciated his honesty lmao knew never to talk to that guy
When I was a private, working on helicopters we would be all cleaned up, parts tagged and put away by 1650. Leadership would disappear until 1830 for a “meeting” and come out and say “0630 PT”. I vowed that if I was ever in a leadership position I would not be that toxic leadership. Fast forward: I’m now a Sgt that has filled the gap in a flight platoon as a platoon Sgt, just until our new one showed up. I see a 1630 “training meeting” on the schedule. My guys are all ready to leave and I said “keep your phones on you, if nothing changes I’ll see you here at the hangar for PT at 0630. Top decides that 0630 PT is a ruck at the ski hill on post and that we should all be in BDU’s instead of PT gear at the hanger. I use the alert roster and NOT ONE OF MY GODDAMN SOLDIERS ANSWERED THE PHONE. 0630, about five of the 20 in my platoon showed up. I saluted top and said “15 out of ranks 1sg.” Fortunately, being in an aviation unit in Alaska at the time was akin to being in a bad national guard unit, so there were no real consequences to this. The next time a meeting came out, I made them stay. I became that toxic leader, but only because my soldiers tried to fuck me.
This is the truth man. Really difficult to say what causes what.
I had a hard time myself when I asked about lymes disease precautions and was instructed to not be drinking all them coronas with lime.
I've been physically assaulted by a Senior NCO, so yeah, I feel ya.
I'm so sorry. I heard the news our agents and commanders no longer have authority over assault cases as of this year, they are now handled by third-party agencies. I've spoken to special agents in the military who would have handled those cases differently. Unfortunately, the commander or whomever would take over and be the one who made the last call. Toxic leaders getting ranked up for allegedly getting shit done, that does not imply it is ethical, moral, and done well.
The realization hits that it's been 20 years and I am still fubar from the trust games that leadership ran.
Go volunteer for one of those cooler units option 40 or SF or psyops…. What I did I couldn’t stand it wanted to be separated from it all and use that as your motivation to pass when shit gets hard haha do you want to serve under toxic ass holes or work with the pinnacle of mankind? But then great leadership ruined you too…. Then when you experience anything less it’s depressing. Also always going to be shit no matter where you go so even at the tip of the spear there will always be drama. Best of luck. I assumed you were in army if not in army look into other avenues other branches offer
I mean, ya. I just wanted to vent and hear other people's stories. I didnt post to hear advice or have anybody fix my problems/give advice. It is actually just the waiting game atm. I experienced a lot of negative shit in the civilian world then one day I found a great company and a great boss and colleagues. I was very lucky. I won't speak to everyone in that company but my particular environment was beautiful to experience. Then when I first joined the military, also great experience. I didn't experience the dark side in any of that, until I cross trained and now I unlocked pandoras box with this one unit, lol. It's temporary, maybe for almost a year to go until I move on again. I know there's going to be shit everywhere, thats envitable, and I've been cognizant and not living under a rock. My old assignments drama was funny and trivial. It wasn't toxic, though. The unit I am in now, I'm talking about *TOXIC*, like mental health down the drain, like, really scary dont trust anyone and keep to self. I want bond with peeps on here who don't know me and I wanna shoot the shit with anons here to feel less alone. I think we call this 'coping'.
How long have you been in for? What’s your mos? I didn’t mean to preach sorry really just wanted explain how I got out of it. But then when I left my great leadership subpar leadership was even more stressful. Iv been on every end of the spectrum. To the point where I rage quit and walked away from a 6 figure job. now I’m back in school stating over at 36. So I get it.
I started going to behavioral health because I had an abusive team leader and a PSG who instigated and even encouraged it. My team leader came up to me after I started, pull me aside and said "I dont care if you kill yourself. Ive had three other soldiers attempt suicide under me, and you will not be the last" My entire chain of command was tracking because I told my BH psychiatrist, because ngl, after he said that I really did want to kill myself. Because i felt completely and utterly alone. I was being abused for well over a year(it was my first year and this was before the army got serious about shit like this) and it was just a breaking point for me. He's still in the Army.
My husband has two weeks left In the army after being in for 8 years. He made SSG in 4.5 years and has never been in trouble.. he got attacked by two pit bulls the end of august with 16 puncture wounds and we took him to closest emergency room. He was late that day and they took his rank along with extra duty and no pay! It has ruined any positive feelings hw had left for the army.. although I know it’s not that big of a deal, who cares at the end of the day. It just has us leaving feeling really down.. the army HIs leaders screwed him after 8 years we of investing our entire lives! So disheartening
That’s terrible. He should not have accepted NJP. Has he discussed with legal counsel options to undo this?
Had a fantastic 10 years of AD Army - just great leaders-left for the USAFR -did 15 years- biggest mistake- the Air Farce had just terrible leadership. I had a heart attack and was in the hospital and got reprimanded by an O-6 for missing drill- btw my wife informed them. They demanded proof -even though I had a perfect record of literally everything-PT -attendance everything. When I emailed my chain my hospital records - I got another verbal reprimand for “not having planning well enough to inform them earlier” so not being able to tell the future. My entire 15 years was like that - almost every person above O-4 were azzclowns.
Coming from amazing leaders to garbage ones...that was crushing.
I had a very good experience with my initial leadership before PCSing to where I am now. I know they're there. I want to work on having more of them. For now, who knows what the future holds (in my little corner of the world).
It’s fucked beyond repair at this point. No real leadership amongst any branch, regardless if they have high rank. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and just wading through trying to get to their end point.
I get it, but I think you just haven’t experienced the contrasting lives yet. Leadership is a learned skill. You are lucky to be in the military where you are surrounded by leadership at many levels. You are probably a leader at some level unless you’re brand new enlisted. Leadership doesn’t really exist much in the civilian world. There just isn’t a need for leadership in the civilian world much but there is a need for managers. A lot of people get those two confused because of the many overlapping scenarios. When you become a civilian you aren’t likely to ever experience leadership again unless you’re the coach for your kids sports team or you work for a visionary like Elon Musk. A visionary will lead you to support their vision and make it reality. You have to understand the unique position you are in. You are surrounded by adults of various ages all thrown into leadership positions and learning leadership in real time. Leadership is learned by trial and error as well as teaching it and being taught it. The best leaders have years of experience going through the trial and errors stages where they learn from mistakes and constantly seek to improve their leadership. Over time the errors become fewer but never are eradicated. It’s why the older dogs like generals tend to be better than lieutenants. Initially as a new leader you are experimenting. You’re trying your own initial style, your taking into consideration and implementing what other leaders have said to do. You’re figuring out what works. You’re experiencing failures and self doubt and overcoming challenges. You also get to engage with all these leaders and experience their leadership. You see what it’s like as a leader and follower. You don’t realize it but you are being molded amongst everyone else who is being molded. Yes, some take better shape faster and it’s noticeable. Some old dogs have the old military mentality etc. but you’re getting to learn and experience leadership where most adults never even learn it at all and they become managers. You’re in the best place to learn how to be the best leader you can be. Then when you leave that world that is military, leadership won’t even be relevant. It’s like obsolete after. Most civilians you meet will never be as good a leader as the people you’re complaining about. The ones you’re complaining about are often toxic yes, but all leaders are imperfect. You won’t be perfect either. When you get out you will be a better leader than all of your peers simply because you were in the military and experienced that leadership molding process to some extent. You’ll see managers who claim to be leaders and walk around so prideful with their head held high. You’ll see it and think back to the military and chuckle about how these so called “civilian leaders” would never be able to lead a band of brothers and sisters to run toward gunfire rather than away from it. To embrace and move into the high threat area risking life, eye sight or limb rather than to seek safety. To put their life in jeopardy for something bigger than themselves and to increase the likelihood of their teammates surviving. Leadership for these extremes is unique in and of itself. On the battlefield when your initial reaction may be to take cover, hide and go internal, it might be that SSgt you hate so much the screams at you to wake the F*^% up and fire back. Some people need to be screamed at and some people need to be told it’s ok to cry just please fire back. You’ll look back and miss it like all these vets do. Then you’ll realize how special the military is and the person you’ve become.
God I wish Elon had stuck to being a visionary. My stocks wouldn't have tanked.
The toxic leadership is under pressure not to have any of their members do stupid things The people doing stupid things like DUi or fighting or whatever are the first ones to cry about being picked up from jail and how no one cares about them if they have to stay in jail
It is significantly deeper than this
While they may be one of the first to cry, that doesn't address that actual problem. I've seen many great officers leave soley because they hate the toxic bs put on them.
“Take initiative” but “dont take initiative, conform”
the army is like any large mega corp there are rules for safety, saving money, etc that many people at the bottom might not understand. workflow rules. processes for having work done between units. I do IT and in larger companies things are very controlled and lots of red tape but we have less downtime issues than companies where people just make any change without going through the process. and the red tape way is faster and better in the end
LMAO. Get a civilian job and you will see the same thing.
My last employer it was all CYA and half my job was logging data to prove things weren't my fault. and the VP i reported to didn't make things better my wife is a VP now and we both work remote and I hear her on her meetings all day and she deals with the civilian world of E4 mafia shammers as well. and then add the people that do things wrong on purpose because the right way takes an extra second
But at least you can quit those situations.
Yea. You don't lose your fucking autonomy. You can just walk out, as simple as that.
I got lucky with my civilian job. And, I got lucky with my previous leadership before coming here
I've seen toxic leadership in both environments.
That is a empty vent. Be specific.. just making a broad accusation of toxic does nothing. Go see therapy and sort it all out.
Roger dodger!
Leadership is an art Its not an exact science that there is formula to follow Leadership is about accomplishing the task/goal Its not about how you feel about the leadership
When the only concern is accomplishing the task/goal, this is why toxic leaders continue.
They could do better But leaders are people, not robots, with their different personalities Thats why we have the Pattons, Eisenhowers, McArthurs, Bradleys, Montgomerys, Zhukovs, Chuikovs, Rommels All of them are flawed? Some are Ruthless? But they all accomplished their objectives
one of the above caused the capture of thousands of american soldiers because of his racist views
Who? Didnt they all have captured troops under them? McArthur left before his army surrendered in WW2 Korea?
>McArthur it was McArthur. he looked down on the japanese and left a big hole in his defenses that was a mountain. The Japanese climbed it and got behind the americans and that was it for the defense of the phillipines so he escaped but his army had to surrender Monty made plenty of bad decisions that lost entire big battles and got units wiped out. Some of the allied leaders hated working with him too Patton slapped a soldier. Zhukov used plenty of human wave assaults like the russians are doing now
McArthur wasnt the only racist Even that british general defending singapore had the same feelings against the japanese Even Eisenhower Commenting why McArthur accepted the title marshall from Philippine Prez "a banana republic"
the british invented the concept and tactics of carrier and land based aircraft in naval warfare and lost to the japanese fighting the way they invented while they fought the old way
He was unlucky i guess Didnt he send his planes to look for japanese planes? Then returned, refuel, had lunch Thats the time the japanese planes caught them How about if his planes were not bombed?
The entire military is Catch-22, just like the book.
Exactly
I had really good leadership and I had really bad leadership, but I never had just ok leadership.
> my experience with terrible leadership is a catch-22 I mean...
Army uses the term “leadership” too often. They will just write a person off based on technicalities for their own benefit. If you have a shitty peer that your nco likes, you’ll be compared to whatever it is that they’re doing. “Useless bs”. And while you had to miss boards because you’re more busy and dedicated to the act of leadership (lol) than they are, you get negative marks
The biggest issue with military leadership is the lack of consistency. Leaders change every 2 to 3 years. Each new leader wants to be noticed, so they work hard to make sure that they do. The easiest way to do that is to change everything. Two years later, new leader arrives, changes everything back.
Either you or the leader is going to rotate in a year. Sometimes you suck it up and take the long view.
Ive seen guys get into fist fights and get away with just a talking to while other guys have been put under investigation because of a he-said-she said scenario. The military cares more about who you know than how good you are at your job.
Combined with other factors, it makes you realize you're in a sitcom
saying “we care about you” while also standing outside in 95° weather for 30+ minutes in NWUS with people passing out and they said the same shit they did last week and the week before and refuse to do it over the 1mc.
I once had to explain to my CO that my OIC was trying to kill his dog because it was a cheaper than putting it a kennel for his summer vacation, and that's why my OIC's wife was hiding the dog at my soldier's house. I gave up after that.
"Hey Sargeant, I never got my sign on bonus." "Private, we got more important things to worry about. Now grab a broom and go to the motor pool" I never got my sign-on bonus.
Fuck sake. Love the entitlement shame
Oh god this brought back another memory. So I activated after 9/11 and got sent to warcom on Coronado island, San Dog. It was cool as shit, but I had an E=5 that was a complete ass kisser. He was ok as far as knowledge and trained me decently. Thing that got me was all about shortcuts and stuff to get things done faster and all. As soon as this fucker made E6 he came to me and was like hey remember all those shortcuts I told you, well dont do them anymore because I might get in trouble for it now so I will be monitoring you. I was like dude really. It was supposed to have been a 6 months activations, but it turned to almost 2 years. I was like dude I know wtf I am doing just go back to your desk. I was considering reenlisting too but that kind of put me off and I didn't extend the next time I was up. Oh wellz.
The difference between military and civilian leadership is military leadership is more likely to get you killed when they mess up. Look at what happened to the Israelis.