This is why Tuberville has been holding up appointments. In the event Trump wins he can install pre vetted flag officers who will be more likely to carry out this plan.
Which makes am assumption that the Rank and File of the Military would blindly follow orders to operate against the very population they are drawn from.
The Conservatives feared that shit when Clinton and Obama were in office. I'm not saying you're wrong about Tubby's agenda. I'm saying that O5 and below are very unlikely to follow those orders.
Every O-10 was once an O-5 who wanted to make O-6. I’m not too keen on finding out the hard way which career officers value their oath more than a promotion.
Any order on that scale is an obviously unlawful order. The US military is not a force to be used on its citizens, nor its domestic governments. There are pretty strict laws that forbid the deployment of active duty troops on US soil. All officers are taught this, and know this.
An order to defy these laws would be clearly against the oath to defend the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic. The only leeway here would be red states deploying national guard units on orders from their governor. In which case, regular military forces may then be authorized to intervene against a state, or *states*, trying to secede, in which case that state would no longer be part of the federation of states, and would not be protected by our federal laws.
2024-2025 is going to be a dangerous time for America. I believe that what we do here will decide the fate of the western world.
This we’ll defend.
I think you have a lot more faith in the durability of our institutions than I do. I do agree this decade is going to see unprecedented trouble though.
The US is a nation of laws. We have to believe in the institutions if we want to continue existing. Without that belief, what then do we have? These extremists *want* you to lose faith in the system. That way they can say “see.. it IS all bullshit, we were right!” And then you start questioning everything and they slowly grab more and more power.
Apathy is the danger here. We must vote and trust the systems we have been upholding for almost 300 years. No system is perfect, and there will always be corruption and bullshit within any government, but that doesn’t make these extremists right to stomp all over our flag and pretend that somehow the US is this lost cause to some shadow cabal that pulls the strings.
> An order to defy these laws would be clearly against the oath to defend the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
They will be given a justification for what is happening. It will be a questionable reason, but a reason with enough wiggle-room that they may feel more comfortable doing what they are told, what everyone around them is doing, than making a stand. If this comes to pass, I hope I'm wrong. . .but republicans have a history of giving questionable, but somehow acceptable, reasons for what they do, and people just go along. Throw in a non-negligible percentage of enlisted who vigorously support Trump, and I could see things going badly.
2024-25 IS a dangerous time, but I'm not sure, even if Trump is defeated, we will have done anything but delay the inevitable. Weaknesses have been exposed in our system, and we cannot fix it without the help of the people who seek to exploit them. It may take a few decades, but things are gonna break before they can be fixed - if they can be fixed. The civil war didn't happen overnight either.
Let me guess you don't support trump but you support Biden administration? Also most of the nation agree that we don't need the protection of federal laws as the federal government have become massively corrupt, so I think more of the active duty military will back the swon't. Suceeding outside of one's that wont, you'll see a collection that will fight against the tyranny and corruption of the federal government !
But not every O5 becomes an O10. There's a lot of Senatorial dick sucking involved in getting the first star, maintaining the current star and getting the next star. If you don't like the Legislative branch's involvement in the process push to change it. I see the policy as good but too easily abused.
If you think the guys to your left and right would willingly operate against American Citizen I feel sorry for you. Your unit sucked if that is true.
And your outlook on the matter seems pretty naive.
Everyone thinks they’re acting on behalf of the American people. If this shit goes hot, each side is going to fervently believe that they are acting in accordance with the US Constitution. There is no external authority who can dictate which side is correct and which side are the traitors, at least not until the smoke clears.
I've never met anyone in the Army who thinks acting against American Citizens is the right way to go. Hell man I don't even really like Civilians as a group that much and I don't even believe in conscription much less violations of Posse Cumitatis (at a minimum).
I think your view is pretty pessimistic and inexperienced with the population of the Military as a whole.
Would you operate against American Citizens? If the answer is "No" what makes you think you're that much different than the rest of us? You the "hero" of this story?
There were lots of veterans storming the Capitol during the January 6 coup attempt. One of them was shot and killed. Active duty service members are just as capable of selfishness and stupidity as everyone else. There’s no magic power in a military uniform that makes people do the right thing, because everyone is going to decide for themselves what the right thing is.
>VoteCast, an in-depth survey of more than 94,000 voters nationwide, showed that 59 percent of U.S. military veterans voted for Trump in the 2020 presidential election.
And *I’m* the one who needs perspective?
That's consistent with vets voting Republican for a long time. Actually, he hemoraghed some vet votes. https://news.gallup.com/poll/118684/military-veterans-ages-tend-republican.aspx
Yes, you need perspective. If who you voted for asked you to round up your candidates opponents, would you do it? How are you different?
Edit: 94k is less than 2% of the population. "In depth survey" my left nut.
I think some would. I was at JBLM a few years ago and there were several guys in my company who were like “man, I wish President Trump would order us up to Seattle to fuck up those losers in the CHAZ.”
There's a huge, cavernous difference between supporting a political candidate and following the immoral and illegal orders of same once in office.
If you can't make that distinction it makes me wonder how susceptible you are to the same influences from a candidate you support.
Note: To be clear I'm not a supporter of any current candidate or sitting politician based on their Party affiliation.
You say that as if getting your news from MSNBC and CNN give you any more insight into reality.
Would you follow orders to fight far right nationalists who want to overthrow the election?
What is the illegal order? If it's to enforce the law in cities with high crime, and it's given by a president declaring insurgency is it illegal? Or is it illegal to refuse? And do you expect privates to be able to figure it out with enough surety to jeopardize their freedom and careers by refusing orders?
Do I expect Privates to be able to figure out right from wrong? Yes. Privates aren't stupid. Nor are they unable to empathize. They also have Junior NCO's that are at their base good people and Senior NCO's that know the "real secrets" of caring for their Soldiers.
If you believe that in 4 years, IF (big if) Trump gets elected and he gets the Flag Officer's in place do you think the culture of the Military is going to go so far from where it is now that the "shooters" are going to engage American Civilians. I can't help you. The Military culture doesn't move that fast.
Totally agree. I swore to constitution and the people, not POTUS or whatever officers are above me(was a low grade O so different from Enlisted oath). It can get dicey legally but thats the hill I am willing to die on.
>Which makes am assumption that the Rank and File of the Military would blindly follow orders to operate against the very population they are drawn from.
Dude look at the history of the world. They almost always do. Militaries are top down hierarchal organizations not designed to foster independent thinking. People fall in line. Yes, even against their own people.
Dude. I guess we're just a bunch of robots. Can't think for ourselves...but...we can overide the core of our training to defend the Constitution? We spend almost 40 hours in our basic training learning about and being empowered to refuse unlawful orders.
Never had an original thought in my 25 years as a Military Professional. Never had to tell a leader that the course of action they were promoting would land them in jail, never had to refuse an order, never had to mitigate damage from a bad decision by leadership. Never had to make split second life altering decisions or come up with on the fly creative solutions to problems.
Guess my morals, ethics and humanity is completely supplanted by a will to serve my Overlords? What do you think I am? Taliban?
How do I know you never served a day?
Again, just look at world history. Militaries are constantly turned on their own people. Almost never do they take the people's side against a fascist government. Why would the US be any different?
I think Senator Tuberville definitely wants to be SECDEF under President Trump, but I don't think he's as forward-thinking as you're making him out to be.
Also, the very tactic he's using can be used against him and his pre-vetted picks.
Last, I see a lot of doom and gloom about "loyalist officers" being put into high places but I don't see it playing out. Every single flag officer and flag officer candidate has served across at least five administrations and none of them resigned or wavered in their performance just because someone they didn't like got elected. It's one thing to expect to see senior leadership that will hem and haw less about DEI, but it's another completely to expect to see senior leadership with enough personal loyalty to Donald Trump that they would sidestep their oath to the Constitution to start issuing or condoning illegal orders.
General Michael Flynn is an example of a general who would issue illegal orders without a second thought. I'd like to think he's the exception, but it's hard to say.
That sounds like he's moving from a civilian coup attempt like on Jan 6 to a military coup attempt.
He's literally telling you what he's intending. Believe him.
Despite everything I have a really hard time believing it would happen. Plenty of members from O10 to enlisted down to E2 I couldn't see going along with anything unlawful en masse. I could see some unlawful incidents occurring but not to the point of a military takeover.
It doesn’t need to be all the military. Hell, most coups involve a small portion of the military. There’s enough Trumptards in the military to make this feasible
Yes, but they would have to leave their current unit and congregate in the Trumptard unit. You just can't do that without the entire military breaking down and splintering into different factions. It wouldn't be a simple coup but would most likely end up in a full civil war.
That is sort of part of what was happening with Tuberville holding up promotions and Trump announcing Project 2025.
It worked with federal judges, it worked with supreme court appointments, now they are going to try it with the military.
Yeah that’s a possibility. There’s just too many to dismiss and then there will be neutral people who don’t want to rock the boat. I just think it’s more likely to happen than people give credit for.
Isn’t this exactly how Nazism rose to power? Many didn’t take it seriously, then people didn’t want to bother themselves/others so they never stepped in, then it was the dominant faction.
I feel like I did this in 2016. I voted for Hillary, but was reluctant. But in the back of mind, I thought “really how bad could it be?” Boy. Did I learn a lot.
It would be exceedingly hard to get them all together in one unit without the notice of others that have authority to stop it. Your best chance would be a national guard unit since members are from local communities, even then the big Army could crack down on that fast. There are still plenty of safeguards in place for this to not be a major threat. If it does become one it will be because the courts, Congress and the presidency have all been hijacked first. The courts are well on their way, so is the house. A major gate would be an attempt for POTUS to override the term limits for a third+ if he won.
Retired military here.
No it wouldn’t be difficult. Especially because there are a higher number of republicans in the armed forces than democrats. They believe they would be saving the country.
I appreciate why you think the way you do, but it’s wrong.
I disagree. Just being Republican is not enough. There are plenty of Republicans who stood against a lot of his efforts during his time in office and in attempts to use the military. I don't believe there are enough extremists who are in power who would actually do anything.
Like take any Washington area military command. Yeah the CO might be a Trumper and say let's go March down the street and do whatever. If it's actually illegal you know what's going to happen? His XO and the SGM are going to look at each other and put that fucker in a closet, and the XO will stand in while DOD quietly replaces him.
Let me say I genuinely hope you are right. Truly I do. But I don’t think you are. There are more than enough that will think they are “saving america” by following Trumps orders if he gets elected.
It’s not like troops don’t break the laws anyway. They will still smoke weed/do drugs/drink and drive/etc.
All it takes is enough incentive.
You don't need the whole military. Just enough traitors in the D.C. area to threaten Congress into capitulating.
If the entire flag/general and upper chain of command is telling private schumuckatelli to go act like a republican, too many are going to just follow orders out of fear or conditioning.
J6 wasn’t a coup attempt. There was never even a millisecond where continuity of government and authority was an issue. Stop overhyping it - it was a riot of idiots who scuffled with Capitol police at the Capitol building. If you really think Viking hat guy had a chance of overthrowing our government then you should be genuinely scared that at any moment the government could be overthrown by small group of people
If someone tries to rob me using a spork is a very bad attempt at robbery but that doesn't make it not an attempted robbery.
January 6th was an attempted coup, it was just a coup attempted by fucking idiots. We don't need to defend them as "just" a riot, their intent was to """stop the steal""" and ensure the American government remained in Trump's hands, election results be damned.
The actual riot wasn't the coup attempt. But they were step 1 of a coup attempt. Trump needed Pence to throw out electoral votes to disrupt the transfer of power, but Pence refused. That's why the mob showed up chanting hang Mike pence and brought a gallows. They were there to intimidate him and force him to follow the plan outlined in the Eastman memo. Google Eastman memo and it outlined how Trump could stay in power. It's all in black and white and it's why Eastman is on trial along with Trump.
Well in theory he could try to declare himself a dictator and then try to deploy the military to put down rebellions but I think that would be the start of a civil war.
Once he wins the election which I think is likely, he doesn't need to do anything.
I remember those fucking Navy Seals driving down I-95 in a military convoy with huge ass Trump flags, so don't think this is impossible if he wins again.
To the surprise of ABSOLUTELY BLOODY NO ONE. Seriously, who the fuck expected anything different from this greasy skidmark? Even his fan club knows what's up with this shit, though they for some baffling reason enjoy it.
Just for the the record. Any one with even a SHRED of proper education or academic credibility would NEVER EVER SAY “educate yourself” followed with a link from Wikipedia. You’re the guy that says “do your research” when your own research consist of a YouTube video that you searched with your own bias.
"Protect against all enemies, foreign and domestic."
The very top senior leadership would tell him to fuck off. It's one of the reasons we have the joint chiefs in Washington. They are a check valve on the executive branch.
>The very top senior leadership would tell him to fuck off.
And he'll keep firing people until he gets someone that says "yes"
Then the next layer will say no. They'll get fired until they're replaced with someone who says "yes"
And so on, until he gets enough in support, in conjunction with right wing terror groups in the US, to actually do something.
This is a man who is more than willing to break every norm to accumulate as much power as possible. He has literally tried to overthrow democracy once - he'll attempt to do so again. Saying that the "norms" are what will keep him in check completely misses the point, and the danger, Trump presents.
you can't do that either. the last secdef he had was snuck in for some legal reason that only existed at the time. every secretary and thousands of the top executive positions no one knows about are senate confirmation jobs
He needs the Senate to do that. And regardless of what we may think, I don't see the Senate Arms Committee supporting a military coup.
The President appoints the chairman. The Senate approves the chiefs, including candidates for chairman.
This assumes norms. Much of Trump's cabinet for his term was "acting" in the role, which does not require the Senate. This includes members of the joint chiefs.
Agreed. I suppose at the end of the day it really is about norms. What are rules, de facto or otherwise, if no one follows them? But there is a buffer built in with the officer and NCO corps. It is well within the moral and legal responsibility any of those people to refuse orders all the way down the chain of command beginning with the joint chiefs to the Battalion and Company commanders on the ground that would begin the coup. That's a lot of people failing their obligations for it to happen. I just don't see it.
But yes, I suppose there could be a way in a Tom Clancy kind of narrative.
As a retired military, I didn't know any of my fellow military who would follow orders to act against US citizens, short of controlling a riot to save lives.
Doesn’t change the fact that a portion of the military would readily follow those orders.
If a situation like that develops in a large scale it will be a lot uglier than everyone just refusing to do it.
I know quite a few who would jump at the chance to round up "Antifa" and "Traitorous Commies."
There's a lot of dumb chuds in the military. They aren't a majority, by any stretch of the imagination, but there are a lot of them.
Yeah there’s a lot of uncertainty over the insurrection clause and whether it’s self-executing or needs intervention from the senate.
Minnesota challenged it and the Supreme Court went “lol no we’re not deciding this”
By filing paper work to run for office. Also, several judges across the country already ruled he’s eligible. Last I’ve checked none of the cases are criminal. Just civil.
it's like everything else with him, he talks and talks and nothing becomes of it
you need rail to deploy tanks and that means getting permission from private rail companies. too many people would have to agree and do a lot of things to make it happen
Honestly I don't expect him to do shit more than deploy a few troops for the photo ops and so he can talk it up. He's not going to have them actually in any kind of battle. It'll be a repeat of the border deployment.
This is all pointless. To those talking about the Tuberville hold with flag officers, a little reminder. Officers DON'T DO SHIT, THEY PLAN SHIT! It's the enlisted that make plans happen, that turn intangibles to tangibles. Also, you think the enlisted give a shit about whose in office? Republican or Democrat, if either side tried this shit, you would see a lot of either sabotaged equipment or dead officers. We lived through Afghanistan and Iraq, were dealing with Ukraine and Russia, Israel and Iran. While we've tended business overseas, our home went to shit. There are still enough believers in the ranks that hold to the letter of the law and KNOW the law, if some shit came down, A LOT of Officers and fellow enlisted would find out just how fucking done some of us our with politicizing the military.
Posse fucking Commitatus boys.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#:~:text=The%20Posse%20Comitatus%20Act%20is,policies%20within%20the%20United%20States.
Read your own source, dipshit. The Insurrection Act is literally one of *four* explicit exceptions to Posse Comitatus.
As for "officers don't do shit," no. Officers have the power to *have power.* "On whose authority are you doing X?" almost always boils down to some GO, or someone delegated authority *from* a GO. And, usually, people trust the chain of command - they'll be suspect of orders or instructions coming from outside, but the threshold for doubting the authenticity or legally of orders coming through the chain is higher.
You give me an order to go into a major city, and I don't see a natural disaster or a state of emergency happening IN that city, I'm going to question why are we mobilizing. Officers have power? Only if their trusted, and trust for leadership is waning in the military right now in case you haven't noticed.
>state of emergency
"There are massive riots going on, and the governor requested we go in to back up the police and restore order."
>only if they're trusted
Or if those underneath them aren't confident enough in their suspicions to mutiny. Because that's what their power is - *legal authority,* and opposing that, whether you're right or not, puts you in a state of mutiny.
Doesn't matter if you don't trust your officers. You'll go into lockup first and questions resolve later.
That's my point "you'll go to the brig first". Do you realize how hard it is to get people to follow lawful legal orders that are common sense? 10 years ago, you gave an order and that was it. Now, I have to explain the WHY behind every order, and if I make a fuss up the chain, it's ignored or they side with the lower ranks. The wrong order comes down, and it won't be a mass revolt, it will be a simple "no", from A LOT of people. Can't mass mobilize if your unit strength gets cut by 30-50% by people who say no and take their chances. Wasn't it around 9-10K people that said no to the COVID vaccine? That also had long-term effects on our recruiting, it's not the PRIMARY recruiting problem, but it is an ancillary issue that people consider now.
I love how the press takes a brief comment out of a whole speech, attaches scary words to it, and redditors start losing their minds, as if Biden didn’t sign a bill in his very first year that allowed civilian police to call in the National Guard.
"Hints."
This is terrifying, but at least he will cut funding for veterans.
This is why Tuberville has been holding up appointments. In the event Trump wins he can install pre vetted flag officers who will be more likely to carry out this plan.
Which makes am assumption that the Rank and File of the Military would blindly follow orders to operate against the very population they are drawn from. The Conservatives feared that shit when Clinton and Obama were in office. I'm not saying you're wrong about Tubby's agenda. I'm saying that O5 and below are very unlikely to follow those orders.
Every O-10 was once an O-5 who wanted to make O-6. I’m not too keen on finding out the hard way which career officers value their oath more than a promotion.
I’m never putting my money on a majority in a group doing the right thing at high personal risk vs following orders
Any order on that scale is an obviously unlawful order. The US military is not a force to be used on its citizens, nor its domestic governments. There are pretty strict laws that forbid the deployment of active duty troops on US soil. All officers are taught this, and know this. An order to defy these laws would be clearly against the oath to defend the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic. The only leeway here would be red states deploying national guard units on orders from their governor. In which case, regular military forces may then be authorized to intervene against a state, or *states*, trying to secede, in which case that state would no longer be part of the federation of states, and would not be protected by our federal laws. 2024-2025 is going to be a dangerous time for America. I believe that what we do here will decide the fate of the western world. This we’ll defend.
I think you have a lot more faith in the durability of our institutions than I do. I do agree this decade is going to see unprecedented trouble though.
The US is a nation of laws. We have to believe in the institutions if we want to continue existing. Without that belief, what then do we have? These extremists *want* you to lose faith in the system. That way they can say “see.. it IS all bullshit, we were right!” And then you start questioning everything and they slowly grab more and more power. Apathy is the danger here. We must vote and trust the systems we have been upholding for almost 300 years. No system is perfect, and there will always be corruption and bullshit within any government, but that doesn’t make these extremists right to stomp all over our flag and pretend that somehow the US is this lost cause to some shadow cabal that pulls the strings.
> An order to defy these laws would be clearly against the oath to defend the US from all enemies, foreign and domestic. They will be given a justification for what is happening. It will be a questionable reason, but a reason with enough wiggle-room that they may feel more comfortable doing what they are told, what everyone around them is doing, than making a stand. If this comes to pass, I hope I'm wrong. . .but republicans have a history of giving questionable, but somehow acceptable, reasons for what they do, and people just go along. Throw in a non-negligible percentage of enlisted who vigorously support Trump, and I could see things going badly. 2024-25 IS a dangerous time, but I'm not sure, even if Trump is defeated, we will have done anything but delay the inevitable. Weaknesses have been exposed in our system, and we cannot fix it without the help of the people who seek to exploit them. It may take a few decades, but things are gonna break before they can be fixed - if they can be fixed. The civil war didn't happen overnight either.
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Which ones? What the fuck does that even mean? Stop sowing fear and doubt, and provide some evidence, otherwise shut up.
Let me guess you don't support trump but you support Biden administration? Also most of the nation agree that we don't need the protection of federal laws as the federal government have become massively corrupt, so I think more of the active duty military will back the swon't. Suceeding outside of one's that wont, you'll see a collection that will fight against the tyranny and corruption of the federal government !
But not every O5 becomes an O10. There's a lot of Senatorial dick sucking involved in getting the first star, maintaining the current star and getting the next star. If you don't like the Legislative branch's involvement in the process push to change it. I see the policy as good but too easily abused. If you think the guys to your left and right would willingly operate against American Citizen I feel sorry for you. Your unit sucked if that is true.
And your outlook on the matter seems pretty naive. Everyone thinks they’re acting on behalf of the American people. If this shit goes hot, each side is going to fervently believe that they are acting in accordance with the US Constitution. There is no external authority who can dictate which side is correct and which side are the traitors, at least not until the smoke clears.
I've never met anyone in the Army who thinks acting against American Citizens is the right way to go. Hell man I don't even really like Civilians as a group that much and I don't even believe in conscription much less violations of Posse Cumitatis (at a minimum). I think your view is pretty pessimistic and inexperienced with the population of the Military as a whole. Would you operate against American Citizens? If the answer is "No" what makes you think you're that much different than the rest of us? You the "hero" of this story?
There were lots of veterans storming the Capitol during the January 6 coup attempt. One of them was shot and killed. Active duty service members are just as capable of selfishness and stupidity as everyone else. There’s no magic power in a military uniform that makes people do the right thing, because everyone is going to decide for themselves what the right thing is.
"Lots" there's ~5 million Veterans. Get some perspective.
>VoteCast, an in-depth survey of more than 94,000 voters nationwide, showed that 59 percent of U.S. military veterans voted for Trump in the 2020 presidential election. And *I’m* the one who needs perspective?
That's consistent with vets voting Republican for a long time. Actually, he hemoraghed some vet votes. https://news.gallup.com/poll/118684/military-veterans-ages-tend-republican.aspx
Yes, you need perspective. If who you voted for asked you to round up your candidates opponents, would you do it? How are you different? Edit: 94k is less than 2% of the population. "In depth survey" my left nut.
You seem pretty naïve.
You seem to lack experience with the population we're discussing.
I think some would. I was at JBLM a few years ago and there were several guys in my company who were like “man, I wish President Trump would order us up to Seattle to fuck up those losers in the CHAZ.”
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There's a huge, cavernous difference between supporting a political candidate and following the immoral and illegal orders of same once in office. If you can't make that distinction it makes me wonder how susceptible you are to the same influences from a candidate you support. Note: To be clear I'm not a supporter of any current candidate or sitting politician based on their Party affiliation.
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This is a legitimate question. Do you know many Service Members and have you ever been deployed? I don't want to make any assumptions here.
You say that as if getting your news from MSNBC and CNN give you any more insight into reality. Would you follow orders to fight far right nationalists who want to overthrow the election?
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What is the illegal order? If it's to enforce the law in cities with high crime, and it's given by a president declaring insurgency is it illegal? Or is it illegal to refuse? And do you expect privates to be able to figure it out with enough surety to jeopardize their freedom and careers by refusing orders?
Do I expect Privates to be able to figure out right from wrong? Yes. Privates aren't stupid. Nor are they unable to empathize. They also have Junior NCO's that are at their base good people and Senior NCO's that know the "real secrets" of caring for their Soldiers. If you believe that in 4 years, IF (big if) Trump gets elected and he gets the Flag Officer's in place do you think the culture of the Military is going to go so far from where it is now that the "shooters" are going to engage American Civilians. I can't help you. The Military culture doesn't move that fast.
Totally agree. I swore to constitution and the people, not POTUS or whatever officers are above me(was a low grade O so different from Enlisted oath). It can get dicey legally but thats the hill I am willing to die on.
>Which makes am assumption that the Rank and File of the Military would blindly follow orders to operate against the very population they are drawn from. Dude look at the history of the world. They almost always do. Militaries are top down hierarchal organizations not designed to foster independent thinking. People fall in line. Yes, even against their own people.
Dude. I guess we're just a bunch of robots. Can't think for ourselves...but...we can overide the core of our training to defend the Constitution? We spend almost 40 hours in our basic training learning about and being empowered to refuse unlawful orders. Never had an original thought in my 25 years as a Military Professional. Never had to tell a leader that the course of action they were promoting would land them in jail, never had to refuse an order, never had to mitigate damage from a bad decision by leadership. Never had to make split second life altering decisions or come up with on the fly creative solutions to problems. Guess my morals, ethics and humanity is completely supplanted by a will to serve my Overlords? What do you think I am? Taliban? How do I know you never served a day?
Again, just look at world history. Militaries are constantly turned on their own people. Almost never do they take the people's side against a fascist government. Why would the US be any different?
Anyone else concerned with how quickly tuberville wanted to confirm the deputy commandant of the USMC?
I think Senator Tuberville definitely wants to be SECDEF under President Trump, but I don't think he's as forward-thinking as you're making him out to be. Also, the very tactic he's using can be used against him and his pre-vetted picks. Last, I see a lot of doom and gloom about "loyalist officers" being put into high places but I don't see it playing out. Every single flag officer and flag officer candidate has served across at least five administrations and none of them resigned or wavered in their performance just because someone they didn't like got elected. It's one thing to expect to see senior leadership that will hem and haw less about DEI, but it's another completely to expect to see senior leadership with enough personal loyalty to Donald Trump that they would sidestep their oath to the Constitution to start issuing or condoning illegal orders.
General Michael Flynn is an example of a general who would issue illegal orders without a second thought. I'd like to think he's the exception, but it's hard to say.
That sounds like he's moving from a civilian coup attempt like on Jan 6 to a military coup attempt. He's literally telling you what he's intending. Believe him.
Despite everything I have a really hard time believing it would happen. Plenty of members from O10 to enlisted down to E2 I couldn't see going along with anything unlawful en masse. I could see some unlawful incidents occurring but not to the point of a military takeover.
If he fills the vacancies caused by tuberville strategically over a few years he could create a decent loyalist cadre in the military.
It doesn’t need to be all the military. Hell, most coups involve a small portion of the military. There’s enough Trumptards in the military to make this feasible
Yes, but they would have to leave their current unit and congregate in the Trumptard unit. You just can't do that without the entire military breaking down and splintering into different factions. It wouldn't be a simple coup but would most likely end up in a full civil war.
That is sort of part of what was happening with Tuberville holding up promotions and Trump announcing Project 2025. It worked with federal judges, it worked with supreme court appointments, now they are going to try it with the military.
You navy guys are a trip. Go trim your stache and knock the water out of your ears.
And what was wrong with what I said? Or are you just whining?
Lol
So just whining.
I'm sorry that happened to you.
Yeah that’s a possibility. There’s just too many to dismiss and then there will be neutral people who don’t want to rock the boat. I just think it’s more likely to happen than people give credit for.
Isn’t this exactly how Nazism rose to power? Many didn’t take it seriously, then people didn’t want to bother themselves/others so they never stepped in, then it was the dominant faction. I feel like I did this in 2016. I voted for Hillary, but was reluctant. But in the back of mind, I thought “really how bad could it be?” Boy. Did I learn a lot.
I say it is more likely to happen than people think, but not at the scale the people wanting it to happen will expect. Not will it be pretty.
It would be exceedingly hard to get them all together in one unit without the notice of others that have authority to stop it. Your best chance would be a national guard unit since members are from local communities, even then the big Army could crack down on that fast. There are still plenty of safeguards in place for this to not be a major threat. If it does become one it will be because the courts, Congress and the presidency have all been hijacked first. The courts are well on their way, so is the house. A major gate would be an attempt for POTUS to override the term limits for a third+ if he won.
It's a good thing so many positions are left open at the highest levels then /S
Retired military here. No it wouldn’t be difficult. Especially because there are a higher number of republicans in the armed forces than democrats. They believe they would be saving the country. I appreciate why you think the way you do, but it’s wrong.
I disagree. Just being Republican is not enough. There are plenty of Republicans who stood against a lot of his efforts during his time in office and in attempts to use the military. I don't believe there are enough extremists who are in power who would actually do anything. Like take any Washington area military command. Yeah the CO might be a Trumper and say let's go March down the street and do whatever. If it's actually illegal you know what's going to happen? His XO and the SGM are going to look at each other and put that fucker in a closet, and the XO will stand in while DOD quietly replaces him.
Let me say I genuinely hope you are right. Truly I do. But I don’t think you are. There are more than enough that will think they are “saving america” by following Trumps orders if he gets elected. It’s not like troops don’t break the laws anyway. They will still smoke weed/do drugs/drink and drive/etc. All it takes is enough incentive.
You don't need the whole military. Just enough traitors in the D.C. area to threaten Congress into capitulating. If the entire flag/general and upper chain of command is telling private schumuckatelli to go act like a republican, too many are going to just follow orders out of fear or conditioning.
Even a small chunk can break a lot of shit before they get sat on. And that can leave us open to all sorts of nonsense.
Locker room talk
J6 wasn’t a coup attempt. There was never even a millisecond where continuity of government and authority was an issue. Stop overhyping it - it was a riot of idiots who scuffled with Capitol police at the Capitol building. If you really think Viking hat guy had a chance of overthrowing our government then you should be genuinely scared that at any moment the government could be overthrown by small group of people
If someone tries to rob me using a spork is a very bad attempt at robbery but that doesn't make it not an attempted robbery. January 6th was an attempted coup, it was just a coup attempted by fucking idiots. We don't need to defend them as "just" a riot, their intent was to """stop the steal""" and ensure the American government remained in Trump's hands, election results be damned.
Very well said.
The actual riot wasn't the coup attempt. But they were step 1 of a coup attempt. Trump needed Pence to throw out electoral votes to disrupt the transfer of power, but Pence refused. That's why the mob showed up chanting hang Mike pence and brought a gallows. They were there to intimidate him and force him to follow the plan outlined in the Eastman memo. Google Eastman memo and it outlined how Trump could stay in power. It's all in black and white and it's why Eastman is on trial along with Trump.
Well in theory he could try to declare himself a dictator and then try to deploy the military to put down rebellions but I think that would be the start of a civil war. Once he wins the election which I think is likely, he doesn't need to do anything.
He won't win the election. There is a long way to go yet. On most objective analyses Biden is actually doing a great job.
I remember those fucking Navy Seals driving down I-95 in a military convoy with huge ass Trump flags, so don't think this is impossible if he wins again.
Summary - he wants to use the US military against political rivals in the US because he's a fascist
To the surprise of ABSOLUTELY BLOODY NO ONE. Seriously, who the fuck expected anything different from this greasy skidmark? Even his fan club knows what's up with this shit, though they for some baffling reason enjoy it.
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Try educating yourself https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism
Just for the the record. Any one with even a SHRED of proper education or academic credibility would NEVER EVER SAY “educate yourself” followed with a link from Wikipedia. You’re the guy that says “do your research” when your own research consist of a YouTube video that you searched with your own bias.
"Protect against all enemies, foreign and domestic." The very top senior leadership would tell him to fuck off. It's one of the reasons we have the joint chiefs in Washington. They are a check valve on the executive branch.
>The very top senior leadership would tell him to fuck off. And he'll keep firing people until he gets someone that says "yes" Then the next layer will say no. They'll get fired until they're replaced with someone who says "yes" And so on, until he gets enough in support, in conjunction with right wing terror groups in the US, to actually do something. This is a man who is more than willing to break every norm to accumulate as much power as possible. He has literally tried to overthrow democracy once - he'll attempt to do so again. Saying that the "norms" are what will keep him in check completely misses the point, and the danger, Trump presents.
you can't do that either. the last secdef he had was snuck in for some legal reason that only existed at the time. every secretary and thousands of the top executive positions no one knows about are senate confirmation jobs
Except when the Senate can't confirm someone, the job is still filled by someone in an acting role. Much of Trump's cabinet was this.
He needs the Senate to do that. And regardless of what we may think, I don't see the Senate Arms Committee supporting a military coup. The President appoints the chairman. The Senate approves the chiefs, including candidates for chairman.
This assumes norms. Much of Trump's cabinet for his term was "acting" in the role, which does not require the Senate. This includes members of the joint chiefs.
Agreed. I suppose at the end of the day it really is about norms. What are rules, de facto or otherwise, if no one follows them? But there is a buffer built in with the officer and NCO corps. It is well within the moral and legal responsibility any of those people to refuse orders all the way down the chain of command beginning with the joint chiefs to the Battalion and Company commanders on the ground that would begin the coup. That's a lot of people failing their obligations for it to happen. I just don't see it. But yes, I suppose there could be a way in a Tom Clancy kind of narrative.
wew. who's feeling confident about the next elections? anyone?
As a retired military, I didn't know any of my fellow military who would follow orders to act against US citizens, short of controlling a riot to save lives.
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The guys I served with would see through that really fast.
What about the ones you didn’t serve with? There are millions of service members and prior service, and we aren’t a single-minded group of people.
Well, if any military member supports unconstitutional orders they're traitors.
Doesn’t change the fact that a portion of the military would readily follow those orders. If a situation like that develops in a large scale it will be a lot uglier than everyone just refusing to do it.
A not insignificant amount of people don't care so long as people they hate get hurt.
i'd say at least half the people I served with were Obama fans and side with the liberal and progressive views
you can't just invoke insurrection, there are conditions that have to be met
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what happens when there is no more money for the deployment?
Trump expanded the national debt like crazy. “To save the country” he’ll do whatever.
I know quite a few who would jump at the chance to round up "Antifa" and "Traitorous Commies." There's a lot of dumb chuds in the military. They aren't a majority, by any stretch of the imagination, but there are a lot of them.
Yes, but it will be _called_ controlling a riot to save lives.
Someone never heard of the Posse Comitatus Act before.
The Insurrection Act is a named exception to the Posse Comitatus Act.
Totally normal behavior. Nothing to do with fascism. /s
Please explain how he is still able to be a candidate for presidency?
Kiddy gloves. That's how. Also a strong lack of balls from judges and sheer stupidity and Trump simping from one particular judge.
Yeah there’s a lot of uncertainty over the insurrection clause and whether it’s self-executing or needs intervention from the senate. Minnesota challenged it and the Supreme Court went “lol no we’re not deciding this”
Minnesota should force their hand. Remove him from the ballot and let the supreme Court deliberate to overturn the action
That’s not how it works and would be unconstitutional. Terrible look and would be quickly overturned.
By filing paper work to run for office. Also, several judges across the country already ruled he’s eligible. Last I’ve checked none of the cases are criminal. Just civil.
Why do people think he’s constantly praising dictators and strongmen around the world? He wants to become one. He will try
Bro wtf are we doing? This is exactly how autocracies happen!
Lincoln did it. FDR did it. Bush Sr did it. Don’t see the difference.
Trump is part of the Democratic Party's conspiracy to destroy the Republican Party. It mainly involves letting them talk
it's like everything else with him, he talks and talks and nothing becomes of it you need rail to deploy tanks and that means getting permission from private rail companies. too many people would have to agree and do a lot of things to make it happen
The Union Pacific railroad donates heavily to the Republican party. I could see them going along with it.
you still need the union support and the people who drive the trains, etc
Honestly I don't expect him to do shit more than deploy a few troops for the photo ops and so he can talk it up. He's not going to have them actually in any kind of battle. It'll be a repeat of the border deployment.
Why do people talk as if the man is PRESIDENT??? This is bs.
This is all pointless. To those talking about the Tuberville hold with flag officers, a little reminder. Officers DON'T DO SHIT, THEY PLAN SHIT! It's the enlisted that make plans happen, that turn intangibles to tangibles. Also, you think the enlisted give a shit about whose in office? Republican or Democrat, if either side tried this shit, you would see a lot of either sabotaged equipment or dead officers. We lived through Afghanistan and Iraq, were dealing with Ukraine and Russia, Israel and Iran. While we've tended business overseas, our home went to shit. There are still enough believers in the ranks that hold to the letter of the law and KNOW the law, if some shit came down, A LOT of Officers and fellow enlisted would find out just how fucking done some of us our with politicizing the military. Posse fucking Commitatus boys. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#:~:text=The%20Posse%20Comitatus%20Act%20is,policies%20within%20the%20United%20States.
Read your own source, dipshit. The Insurrection Act is literally one of *four* explicit exceptions to Posse Comitatus. As for "officers don't do shit," no. Officers have the power to *have power.* "On whose authority are you doing X?" almost always boils down to some GO, or someone delegated authority *from* a GO. And, usually, people trust the chain of command - they'll be suspect of orders or instructions coming from outside, but the threshold for doubting the authenticity or legally of orders coming through the chain is higher.
You give me an order to go into a major city, and I don't see a natural disaster or a state of emergency happening IN that city, I'm going to question why are we mobilizing. Officers have power? Only if their trusted, and trust for leadership is waning in the military right now in case you haven't noticed.
>state of emergency "There are massive riots going on, and the governor requested we go in to back up the police and restore order." >only if they're trusted Or if those underneath them aren't confident enough in their suspicions to mutiny. Because that's what their power is - *legal authority,* and opposing that, whether you're right or not, puts you in a state of mutiny. Doesn't matter if you don't trust your officers. You'll go into lockup first and questions resolve later.
That's my point "you'll go to the brig first". Do you realize how hard it is to get people to follow lawful legal orders that are common sense? 10 years ago, you gave an order and that was it. Now, I have to explain the WHY behind every order, and if I make a fuss up the chain, it's ignored or they side with the lower ranks. The wrong order comes down, and it won't be a mass revolt, it will be a simple "no", from A LOT of people. Can't mass mobilize if your unit strength gets cut by 30-50% by people who say no and take their chances. Wasn't it around 9-10K people that said no to the COVID vaccine? That also had long-term effects on our recruiting, it's not the PRIMARY recruiting problem, but it is an ancillary issue that people consider now.
I once did shit. It was awful. I appreciate you doing shit for me.
I love how the press takes a brief comment out of a whole speech, attaches scary words to it, and redditors start losing their minds, as if Biden didn’t sign a bill in his very first year that allowed civilian police to call in the National Guard.
Not afraid. We can’t even intercept balloons in a timely manner.