Yeh but it’s still a HUGE stepping stone. Of course you could go the trade route. But even an education degree masters level in some states could drop you at 90k salary. And if it doesn’t benefit you, it will benefit your kids, higher educated parents usually set their kids up for a better life. They understand the education system and career path better than parents who have no clue how that system works or who never finished.
>The biggest thing is what you do with a degree. The degree itself doesn’t guarantee you a better life. It’s just a steeping stone on the way.
Especially if you pursued something 'that'd pay big money' but you barely even tolerate the field. Good, now you're among the least motivated people in a big money field, guess how many people are getting hired before you are?
Started realizing this recently. What is the point of pursuing a difficult field like computer science or software engineering if I'm just doing it for the money? I should be able to wake up in the morning and look forward to *something* about the job I go to.
As a software engineer I get this satisfaction, but if someone was studying and trying to get in the field for the money, without the core interest, these problems and puzzles probably won’t give that satisfaction.
If you aren’t excited about programming, it just means you aren’t good enough at it. The power you feel when you’re an expert is insane, like you can create whatever your heart desires.
Ah sorry, you misunderstand. I'm not a programmer to begin with, it's just been on my radar as a sort of, "Make lots of money doing a job everyone wants" kind of job, so I thought briefly about pursuing it.
Then I realized I need to focus on my strengths, and delve into careers that I know I can do well in and be happy about. CS isn't one of them.
Still, some day when I have time I'd like to dabble in coding or something, might be a fun little side thing.
People don’t realize that the degree is a tool to help you and not a guaranteed meal ticket. Somebody with a higher education and no experience is not starting at the same place as somebody with no higher education and no experience. It’s not even close.
There is a trend of some companies, especially tech, starting to remove a degree as an absolute requirement if the person has other real world experience. I’ve also met so many people 10+ years into their careers who went to college for something entirely different than what they are doing.
That’s true but I wonder if there’s something to the idea that the content of an undergrad degree is becoming less meaningful in jobs. Like I have a degree and a higher income but I’ve never directly used what I was taught in my major.
Specific knowledge, maybe not -- depends on the major and how directly applicable to a specific career it might be. But reading, writing, critical thinking skills? Exposure to a broader range of knowledge and information?
Sure, there are plenty of people who manage to bumble through college and come out roughly as clueless as they went in, but a lot of people apply themselves benefit greatly just from learning new things.
Communication skills are a big one, but I find that correlates more with people who are good at reading.
I've worked with lots of folks who didn't go to any sort of post-secondary and it's always easy to spot someone who was a big reader as a kid.
It's why I think reading is the single most important skill we can learn and refine. Everything else comes relatively easy to someone who can read well and comprehend what they're reading.
It's transferable skills. Has been for a while. That combined with who you are as a person. There's a lot you can do with some key skills (analytical, mathematical, computer, investigative, communication, and so forth), motivation and hard work. A degree provides the framework to develop key skills. So the degree is important, but people think about the value of degrees far too directly.
I have a family member that was VIP at a Fortune 500. Her admin asst had a dance degree. It doesn’t always matter what kind of degree only that have one
The knowledge truly doesn’t matter, companies and individuals within any industry use the degree as a barrier to weed out others. So even if you had the skill before, the degree is like a certification of trust that you will be professional, do your job, complete tasks on time etc. the lack of degree doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t do those things but the degree at least proves that you can.
It'll get lower every year. I'd genuinely like to see what the results are 20 years from now, will the average college graduate make more? Probably yes, but it won't be as much.
Yes, as well as the generic divide between manual jobs and thought jobs growing, with the former earning less in real terms and the latter requiring a degree in virtually all cases.
Yes, but you're not accounting for A.I. being able to take over a large chunk of the 'thought' jobs. I forsee A.I. taking over a lot of those jobs. Where as the more manual jobs those require full robots with a lot more moving parts and maintenance required.
I agree that some thought jobs (the ones that require limited thought) are vulnerable to AI. But these pale in comparison to the repetitive manual jobs that are not only vulnerable to AI, they’ve already been decimated by mere mechanization. The latter will continue to disappear at a much higher rate than thought jobs.
You're absolutely correct but information is more readily available than ever thanks to the internet and there is an ever growing industry of alternative education options. With the wealth gap continuously getting larger and the cost of traditional 4 year university skyrocketing way faster than the rate of inflation, I'm really curious to see what the education landscape will look like in a couple decades.
The problem is that the vast majority of people who barely cleared a high school diploma are absolutely not the people who are going to Google Search themselves into a better life either. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but broadly speaking, if you're not motivated to get an education, you're also not motivated to educate yourself.
You can try to argue 'Oh it's easier to access information, you don't even really need an education at all!' but there's a whole army of high school diploma fast food and Amazon delivery workers who are never going do better than what they have right now.
Information is a small part of college. A lot of the value is learning to study, manage time, network, think critically. Demonstrating an ability to persevere, rise above others, handle adversity. Personally I like to see that potential employees have the work ethic to do well in subjects they don’t like or think aren’t important.
I second this. Even if people have more non-degree paths to getting the same jobs, they will always take longer. Thus, a true "years of experience" comparison will always be dramatically in favor of those with degrees. At my company, an undergrad takes 4 years off the hiring requirements and a masters takes another 2. So, I was eligible to be hired at a more senior grad with 9 years of experience when it would have taken a non-degree 15. However, when you factor in that most of the early non-degree work is typically unrelated to the higher pay fields, it actually is more like 20 years of total work experience when I'm still at 9 with an MBA.
I've also noticed that I'm given slightly more opportunities for growth and development than my older peers because I have more career runway and therefore more chance at climbing the corporate ladder. Not saying this fact is fair, but it's the reality.
Indeed. Especially because all these hiring algorithms won’t even acknowledge your application/resume without a BA or higher if they’ve put that in as a requirement/preference.
Yep. I have a job I’m very proud of and am the top executive in the company, achieved without any college education. However if I want to increase my earning potential and retire with any money I really should graduate to lawyer or engineer in the same field, both obviously require degrees. I could actually get certified as an engineer in this field without a degree but that’s pretty unique to my industry so I won’t digress.
Now the impact of how expensive college has become is a whole other conversation.
I came here to say basically this. My job requires a minimum of a bachelor's degree. With a single bachelor's degree, I'm working in the field of my degree and starting salary is just under 6 figures. I'm also the in the least educated bracket in my department (Single BS degree). I'm working in my MS now which will give me the ability to get a promotion. About a third of the people I work with have PhDs another third have master's degree's and the rest have one or more bachelor's degree. (I work in aerospace)
While I agree anecdotal evidence is very limited broad degree views are also not the full picture either. The breakdown by industry/degree is a lot more useful.
All in all, using a degree to get a specific kind of job is highly effective. But getting a degree to get a degree (AKA go to college and “figure it out”) is a very bad idea that was pushed heavily in the 90’s-00’s
Not disagreeing with you, however I will state that those "career earnings" metrics are a trailing indicator
The income of a people who graduated college in the 70s, 80s, or 90s and comparing them to non college degree holders' income is not necessarily a good indicator of what the degree vs trade school earnings will be in 2030, 2040, or 2050.
In 1980 only 17% of the 25 and older population had a BS or higher. In 2019, it's 36%. Fact is the supply and demand has flipped and now BS holding employees are bidding each other down on salary more than BS desiring companies are bidding salaries up
Is the information you’re looking at controlling for just a degree?
If the average income of people that have a country club membership is 200k does joining a country club improve my long term income outlook?
The people that have degrees are typically going to have several other factors that make their long term earnings higher.
Typical studies of the impact of a degree will control for a number of confounding variables. The finding that a degree increases income is extremely robust, but the gap does seem to be shrinking.
The data is new enough and noisy enough that I wouldn't suggests it's clear (hence the "seems").
But importantly, the argument is focus on "return on investment" not merely the wage premium. So, it takes into account the rising costs of college.
Here are 2 sources, discussing 2 different studies. One supports the (slight) fall in ROI while the other suggests an increase in ROI.
https://www.businessinsider.com/college-is-still-a-good-investment-2019-6
https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivalegatt/2024/04/05/4-secrets-to-college-admissions-success/?sh=6e5dcbf51960
My starting annual salary as a chemical engineer was about $85k at age 22. I'd say that allowed me to network and volunteer more freely since I knew my basic needs were easily being met.
I'd say the leg up my parents gave me by helping me through college was the main factor in me finishing that degree, but I also worked my first job at 18 in one of the campus geological research facilities, then jumped to a biodiesel production lab, then got an internship at 20, then that company hired me after I graduated.
I also got scholarships to help me through college as well as the pay from those campus jobs. I knew some classmates who got jobs at the engineering library and basically got paid to do homework. People made it work.
But as I said, the networking was key...people hate on frats and sororities, but some fail to realize the lasting effects of being social. In order to do that you need to have your basic needs met...I went a non-Greek route but still made connections and those connections, Greek or not, are still some of my best friends over a decade later.
Absolutely this. Even in non-technical fields (poli sci major here) connections with faculty, potential employers via internships, access to career services resources and alumni networks, all those things are invaluable professionally if you bother to use them. My anecdata re: my "less successful" college friends is that they never actually bothered to use a lot of what they paid for -- never went to office hours, never applied for a research assistant position or similar, never went to career services or used other resources that are a huge part of the value your tuition pays for, and sort of just expected a job to materialize on graduation.
I also was non-Greek and met some of my best friends in college, though I'll say ultimate frisbee never did actually get me a job.
You’ll be surprised what country club memberships can do. I’ve met many idiots in lucrative jobs whose primary qualification is being the son of a country club friend.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are talking about peak earnings, where the trades do quite well. But if we're talking lifetime earnings, the trades probably fall behind, just because you physically can't do it when you're 70, and those defined benefit pensions our parents locked in are looong gone.
Which, now that I type it, doesn't really sound like much of a virtue. Oh yay, we *get* to work until we die, how lucky are we
I have a general Art degree, started as a call center rep at a bank, made connections and worked my way up to an analyst in Anti money laundering and terrorism financing. However, criminal justice degrees start near where I am at without having to do everything I did to get where I am at. So all depends on the field and employer. In my situation a degree didn’t matter but cost me 12 years of additional work with less pay than someone who is coming out of college with a degree in the field.
I'll second this obvious point.
I'm a self taught developer and it took me probably 5 years to find a job that didn't require all of my time (I value work life balance) to just get to a 50k paying salary. 10 years later and I'm making the upper average for a senior dev in my area... But essentially it took me MUCH longer to get a market rate than others who had a degree.
This notion that degrees are pointless is misguided imo.
Similar story for me. My job technically requires a master's degree, but I put in a decade of work to counteract that. I probably also don't get paid as much as someone with a masters, but I also don't have the added student loans.
You absolutely need a college degree for my field- undergrad minimum.
Imo there are too many people who go get a degree with no idea what they want to do and then they get some degree that has no earning potential. They should have an idea what they want to do and then go get a degree based on that.
I've always wanted to work in cyber security. So it's obvious that an IT degree was the way to go.
Yeah, but you were making $50K/year instead of spending it and not making nothing. So I’d bet you’re slightly better off than most of your educated peers long term.
On average, it balances out by the mid 30's and degree holders tend to go on to make more over the remaining 30 years of their career. So while it does tend to equate to a more economically rich entry to the work force, it tends to slow down much quicker and stagnate much longer.
There will always be edge cases, but statistically, it's not the case.
Same. Mine did absolutely nothing for me.
Thankfully, my second degree in accounting did the complete opposite. Before and after graduation, I have had recruiters non-stop asking me to interview for their jobs. Even today, I get 3-4 recruiters a month asking me to interview.
I'm an accountant as well, my degree is certainly how I got into the career. That cpa on the end of your name is why recruiters are going after you though. I wouldn't say it's required to have a good career, but it's needed to open a lot of doors in the management level or public side.
Of course, but not really for the reason of having a cpa as much as what having a cpa indirectly represents.
Most of the people I work with at any of my jobs haven’t been CPAs. I’m usually somewhat of a black sheep wherever I go, but I still get surrounded by people who are just as smart and hard working or many times smarter and more hardworking.
I’ll never actually use my cpa unless if I make it to CAO or CFO. The most I’ve used it in industry was a SOX auditor put a single sentence of “cpa designation indication of professional competency” for a singular control out of a 160+ control matrix. So, I basically haven’t used it at all, lol.
Having a cpa is just another recruiter flag for “highly motivated/highly experienced” much like having a degree used to be a flag for that.
But for every sociology job, there’s probably hundreds or thousands of applicants, and most of us were not putting out enough signals to get out the competition.
In accounting, starting out, there is almost no competition, so I got multiple internships and job offers without being a CPA.
A bit over a decade ago I was dating a girl long distance as she applied to med school. She ended up going to school in Atlanta and I considered moving there, but was concerned about my job prospects if I did. We broke up and glad I didn't move to Atlanta.
I've met alot of homeless stem majors down here, including engineering. I've seen people with multiple degrees and years of experience get stuck down here because they can't find a job. You'd be surprised how many people come down here with NOTHING lined up thinking it'll just be gravy, only to exhaust their savings and go right back up north lol.
I mean, there are jobs.....if you want to work at a warehouse or restaurant that is. Most white collar jobs go to people with connections, which leaves most jobs staffed by under qualified people who get by because they go to the same church or they smoke with someone high up on the weekends (yes I watched that literally happen at one company.....a company that you have to drug test to get in mind you lol)
I once talked to a guy under a bridge in Atlanta who claimed to be a Georgia Tech grad years before that point but just got addicted to heroin. During our conversation another homeless guy approached us and the Georgia Tech guy was like "don't give him anything, he's not even on drugs".
I'm a STEM major that also left Atlanta, even though I grew up around there. There are more opportunities in the smaller and cheaper midwestern city I'm in now.
I’m not sure I think degrees are pointless, but I would argue many degrees are more valuable than others. Degrees with direct job opportunities are where people need to target. Concept degrees are a tougher road because you’re going to have to get an employer to get on you more. That being said accounting should be one you can get in with. It’s a tough market out there but please keep applying. Your break is coming with a degree like accounting 🤞
Yea some jobs definitely require it I'm trying to get back in to get an education degree to teach math. I couldn't work in medical field lol I have the weakest stomach
If you have a bachelors degree already, you can probably start teaching full time while completing your degree requirements. Look up alternative certification, or emergency certification, or provisional certification or something similar in your school district - each one seems to call “teaching with a bachelors degree in a field other than education while completing education coursework” something different.
If your perspective is the only value in a degree is career earnings based the value of a degree is probably at its lowest point ever.
If you believe education and a degree has personal value in growth and understanding of the world then no it has a lot of value.
It says alot about society that we reduce every aspect of everything to your only value is being a worker or consumer.
In part even recognizing or questioning that is prerequisited by education.
So I fully agree with this part
>If you believe education and a degree has personal value in growth and understanding of the world then no it has a lot of value.
People should be viewing higher education in that light.
However given colleges charge upwards 6 figures to earn the degree, can you really blame people for looking at it in terms of return on investment?
Except higher education has been bastardized by the for profit motive behind it. Now LSU is known for its lazy river rather than its educational prowess. We need to stop the profit model privatization of public universities and start focusing on education rather than recreation
No argument here. College should be fun. God knows I enjoyed my time there. But I enjoyed my time "off campus" making friends, going to parties. Out side of the occasional gaming / LAN party in a computer lab (was a student IT worker so this was semi-sanctioned) on-campus was pretty dry.
I would argue that if people valued education for the sake of education more some of this other BS, like a lazy river apparently (I didn't know about that) would decrease. And MAYBE we could reduce some of the waste and bring down some of these high costs.
I had a friend that paid for college and the professors let me sit in class and learn for free.
I wasn’t a student. But I was cool and they let me chill there.
I obviously didn’t get a diploma.
But I think if people want to learn for free, the options are out there for those with ambition.
Personally I've always wanted to see schools drop all of the sports. Sure some of the big college level teams are profitable, but the vast majority are just a drain on the budgets. Maybe some system where the NFL/NBA/MLB sponsors the big state schools as a minor league. My university had a multimillion dollar stadium as a D3 school and I don't even want to know how much every student was paying for the athletic budget.
Yes, but not every college is 6 figures. That’s because we’ve attached college name to prestige/social status. We can detach and detangle this from education in of itself.
I'm not trying to say the current system isn't broken and need of correction. I AM trying to say the correction should NOT be the devaluing or reduction in people getting educations.
The past was built on labor. A very small number of educated people and a very large number of uneducated workers mostly in agriculture. Those days are GONE, I struggle to see a future where we return to that model and the global economy doesn't collapse.
I strongly believe the future is going to need an educated work force. The Boomers are leaving the work force whether hey want to or not. AI is probably not going to deliver what what the billionaire class expects. Even if we exclude innovation and growth we would need a lot of educated people just to maintain our current technology level going forward.
No, not trying to lay blame at all. But if I include every point and counter point no one would read my screen long screed.
However, I will argue that a LOT of people today do believe education only has value in career and earning. It's a point of fairly great conflict between me and and my boomer parents who try to talk me out of sending my daughter to college.
I would also argue that while college today is ridiculously expensive, it was also somewhat ridiculously cheap through the boomer and GenX years. So we probably have a somewhat skewed view. I would love to argue free higher education for all. But lets get real that's as likely as National Healthcare (in the US obviously). #American't
I mean, this is noble and everything, but the financial part is where pragmatism enters the chat.
It’s not like degrees are free (at least in the US)—if that were the case, we could pursue them solely for the pursuit of knowledge.
But the reality is, you could be making anywhere from a 50k-200k+ investment in a degree. ROI *has* to be a factor, unless you’re independently wealthy.
Exactly. I am learning about snakes. A place in Atlanta gives courses for as low as $350, and some you can use on a resume. Also, they have live handling seminars.
Lol I would be inclined to agree with you except the small teensy fact that most people have to go 5-6 figures in debt in order to get their degrees. So if they don’t make their money back on it with surplus then they’re swimming in poverty.
Growth and understanding of the world is nice but I can’t eat it or sleep under its roof.
Lots of people are in unsustainable student loan debt. For those individuals, giving more weight to the financial merits of a degree would be a good thing for their future health and welfare.
If someone is either already financially independent or willing to make significant sacrifices as a consumer, then yes, they need be less worried about the financial merits of degrees.
Everyone has their own perspective. I've always been curious, been a big reader, and been into learning. I believe there are many ways to learn- internet, books/libraries, workshops, etc. There's some amazing stuff in Cspan. For me, curiosity and learning isn't necessarily based on classrooms. If I really wanted just to learn, I can take a few courses and pay out of pocket or take out relatively small loans.
Students loans can really screw up someone's life.
In fact, schools are quite limiting. One chooses from a curriculum. There's no way it can accommodate every single interest. If i wanted to learn about cubism and then learn to sew and then learn some jazz, I could just go do it.
Not everyone is classroom oriented either. Student loans can stop someone from doing things they are actually interested in.
My friend went to a college and the professors there let me sit in a lot of classes for free. I got to learn for free!
I had a lot of fun, but because I wasn’t a student, I didn’t get a degree or access to any student resources. But I think a lot of people would hate college if it was free and they didn’t get a degree.
Not a lot of people like learning for the sake of learning :((
Your comment sounds like a nothing sandwich of words.
What is going to happen is we’ll end up like Japan struggling with hikikomori because of an influx of too many people with educated degrees are offing themselves because of not finding work/unrealistic social and family expectations of success.
You are already seeing this happen with Gen Z with high teen su1c1d3 rates. The only difference between Japan and U.S. is Japan lacks civil rights movements that we accomplished in the states and even then, we are still progressing.
You don't need a degree for growth or an understanding of the world, you need a degree to check a box for an online application so the AI reviewing the resumes can move on to the next round of do you have the key words we are looking for too. Degrees are worthless.
Every single successful person I know has a degree.
My life literally changed once I got an associates degree and changed AGAIN once I got a Bachelor's degree.
I make six figures as a single black male from a low income single mother household.
The odds were stacked against me and I sincerely feel they would've been worse had I never gotten
an education, it's literally put me in a position to earn even more.
The fallout from 2008 is still prevalent today in the white collar job sector and you have people with years of experience who clean up what would be “entry level” so it’s the chicken and egg game for those without experience but can’t get any because every job wants experience.
So what do these 22 years old do who can’t catch a break?
They are at Amazon, Starbucks, Walmart, the list goes on where they make under $25 an hour but their standard student loan payment is $300 plus a month.
And the longer these people stay in these types of roles the less likely it is they will ever land that entry level professional role where in todays cost of living environment you simply can not survive on $25 an hour in most areas without help.
Point being you could get a broad degree in psychology, business, etc.. 20 years ago and walk into most jobs and be able to develop technical skills on the job while you bartended your way through college…
Today kids need the degree, several specialized internships and it’s still a competitive landscape for these broad white collar jobs that don’t require a specific degree like nursing, attorney, etc…
It’s funny because many managers who demand these plug and play skills from day 1 were given the chance to develop technical skills on the job.
Then these same companies want to bitch about loyalty when all they do is poach instead of developing in house talent.
Generally speaking degrees are pointless today without connections or highly specialized internships because the barrier to entry is significantly higher than the generations previously.
I didn’t realize the severity of the problem until when I went to apply for internships and the internships were requiring previous internships 🤦♂️
There is just a lot of competition. The best performers who went to the top schools, got the best grades, and have the best internships are the ones getting hired.
That’s not because degrees are pointless, it’s because most people struggling aren’t the top of their field and there’s nothing left for them.
Whether or not a degree has any impact on your livelihood probably depends more so on what the degree is in rather than having an actual degree.
I see this sentiment a lot on this sub though: “We did everything they told us to do and now we have nothing”…and then OP got a Masters in Finger Painting or something.
This. I'm always a little surprised when people question whether degrees are worth it. I'm certainly not hiring any engineers without at least one (preferably two or three) of those, regardless of level. I've also never been in the position of applying for work outside my field because a key factor in choosing a major was "has a growing job market".
Thats the exception not the rule. It's like trying to hire a pipe fitter as a doctor without a degree just because they learned some basic medical skills. Generally...no thank you.
In my field, it's more of a legal requirement. I know there are some fields that play fast and loose with the word engineer, but civil is not one of them.
100% agree. I’m a licensed PE and too many people throw around the word “engineer” like writing code is the same as being the person that signs off on a bridge.
I'm a low voltage and security installer with a physics background. For me, having my degree I can understand interference and electrical components at their fundamental levels that makes my projects go smoothly vs my other colleges that learn through trial and error.
Knowing it doesn't work isn't the same thing as Knowing why it doesn't work. Having the experience and the fundamentals background makes you most efficient.
Right? My first degree was in network administration (hardware side of tech) and second is in nursing. Both has granted me a pretty decent living opportunity - moreso nursing than IT, but nevertheless...
I don't know how useful having a degree is as an advantage but I can tell you from experience that not having a degree is a hell of a disadvantage, especially if you're not suited for the fields most accessible to folks without degrees. I'm sure my application is automatically filtered out immediately because of the lack of degree, especially with shitty work history and no network. Wouldn't recommend.
Honestly I know more people that got into good-paying jobs thru connections/social circle/nepotism than people who got into good-paying jobs "with a degree alone" and no such similar connections
The old saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is still true even in the year 2024
Social skills/connections still reign supreme
The ideal situation is both. My roommate in college was a smart guy studying business. While everyone was working various jobs at the mall or whatever. He started volunteering and working at one of the nicer golf courses in the area. Officially he had a job as a dishwasher but would spend all day there hanging out with the other staff. After a few months he was helping organize charity tournaments for rich execs. Planning, cadying, etc. Through those connections he got into management for a large pharmaceutical and is doing very well for himself.
This is a unique case study. But if you don't have the "right" connections so to speak. There are ways to find them.
Anecdotal evidence, got my degree in finance with almost a 4.0 GPA and 5 honors and internships.
Took 3.5 years to any job in my field by just applying, never got an interview. Reached out to one contact and got an interview and a job at a white shoe firm almost instantly.
Take it from me, if you're in college right now just network. Learn from my mistakes, that's all that matters.
I (no degree) make more than most of my degreed peers, but also, I’ve been passed over by many HR departments while job hunting in the past due to my lack of a degree regardless of being overqualified for the positions I was applying for at the time.
So take what you will from that. I think it’s good to have the piece of paper, to check the box. It definitely opens doors for you that would have arbitrarily have been shut by some HR gatekeeper otherwise, but I don’t think there’s much value outside of that. It certainly hasn’t stopped me from creating a decent life for myself, and it’s saved me time and debt.
If you’re trying to get into STEM work, then it probably makes more sense.
Same boat. It's a checkbox. It's one that you can get by without and get very far without. But a new position, or a new company, and regardless of your career and known experience and reputation, it's like starting all over.
It's so much easier to have the box checked.
Highly depends on the field you go into. I have kids that are ages 15 down to 8 so been talking about this with the older kids.
The main part of it has been to find a career that you can probably do working for yourself.
It’s better to have a degree in the long term.
However, I’d argue the brand name matters more now. I received a degree from a no name small state school FGCU and it hasn’t really done much for me other than a checkbox on my resume.
My cousin went to NYU and received the same undergrad degree as me(Mathematics) and they easily get interviews simply because they have a degree from a well-known school.
Although a big problem in society is that we only think a narrow band of abilities is " valuable " and end up in a huge mess. See the STEM boom and people unable to realize you need to account for how society is affected
The problem is this: degrees just for the sake of having degrees. All at a crippling cost.
There’s some fields where a degree is a necessary investment and rightfully so…But other times it’s just checking an imaginary box. If a job requires “a four year degree” as in any degree, then you don’t need a degree.
The thing is to make good money today you not only need a degree, you also need to know the right people and have the right connections. Experience is a toss-up if you know the right people. Having really good social skills is so important.
The degree is less important than the tangible skillsets you get from earning it
If you earn a degree and you haven’t really picked up any kind of specialized skill except googling for info to cite in reports, then yeah, good luck finding a job
Going to school to get a degree you have no idea what to do with needs to die. That's why people don't use their degrees. They get one and then realize they don't want to or can't work in an area that will utilize it.
I waited to go to college until I knew what I wanted to do. Waiting until you're an independent adult is harder on school life because you often have to work through school. I just talked to my kids about all this. But it's honestly better than wasting your time and money on something you'll never use.
I'm with you on that, just go to school they said lmao. I feel like more people care about you getting the degree rather than the person putting in the work to do so.
Couldn't agree more.
I went to audio engineering school at 18 (certificate program, no degree) and tried my luck in the music production industry for 3 years until I realized only 1 in 10,000 actually make it.
I went back to school in my early 20s fresh from the failure of not being able to make my passion work. I started at community college and did an associates in psychology thinking that I'd be able to make something work with a close 2nd interest. It was a shock when I learned about the the career choices one could only get with a bachelor's and that years of additional schooling would have to happen to be successful. Even with a master's or Psy D, the field is pretty rough.
The good thing about community college though is that it is bare bones, so it was easy to transfer to almost anything. I transferred to the business school at a university and chose accounting as my major after taking the intro classes. Before choosing, I FINALLY decided to gather a clear picture of the job landscape and usefulness of the degree before actually declaring it.
It took my ass 3 tries to get it right, but I'm so thankful I actually pondered my last decision thoroughly and hard before going through with it (unlike the first two). It was really hard going through this at a less traditional age, but I like to think it built character. I ended up in a good spot anyways, just took me a little longer. But at least it is a useful place where my degree is paying off, and I have a lot of opportunity.
In short (sorry this is so much longer than I intended), being deliberate about your college decision / what you choose to study is much more important than just going to college at 18 because everyone else is doing so. Parents and/or schools need to teach kids early on about the weight of their decision, career paths, job availability within their field, and average salaries so that kids can make an informed decision. Otherwise, they generally pick something they are passionate about and accumulate debt that they can't get out of it. I wish it was the opposite and that those who have different skills and knowledge sets had more of a place. But we are all victims of capitalism and the economy in the end.
It depends on the field. As a teacher, I'd never be able to get a fixed teaching position without my MA degree. People without degrees are considered a cheap hire :/
One thing Ive found about people that cant find a job with a degree is they always fail to mention where they got it. A degree from Harvard will be much more recognizable and carry more weight than a degree from some unknown school. Not only that but the connections made at top schools will be much stronger and important for finding a job. It seems the people that say they have 3 degrees and still can’t find a job probably got those degree online or at low quality schools most of the time.
Yes and no.
Objectively, with the increase in numbers of college grads, a degree on its own has less value than ever. But that doesn’t touch on the fact particular degrees are worth significantly more than some while others are practically worthless.
It really depends on what you’re trying to do. Plenty of high earning STEM related roles consider a degree the price of entry, and without one you’re not even going to given the time of day. Others you can get by with experience or proof of self study, but even that is becoming less of a possibility nowadays. Software used to be the poster child this but there’s apparently a push for CS degrees in the field because they’re at least known quantities vs the flood of unqualified self-taught “developers” with lackluster performance.
Of course none of this really matters if you want to get into a trade, so there’s that too.
In my industry (cybersecurity), I’ll hire the guy that has a high school diploma and plays with a lab or goes and gets a certification over the person who goes to college for a degree in cybersecurity. The skill sets required for different things in my industry don’t necessarily require someone to spend 3-4 years of school classes to learn. A boot camp that costs $2500 for 5 days of heavy learning or a $400 - $1500 certification gives you base skills needed to understand some level of entry level concepts.
The problem I tend to see with folks that have college degrees (I have mine but meh), having been a hiring manager for 7-8 years now, is that they rarely have the skills to justify the salary that their school told them they should be earning. That high school diploma kid is offered $55,000/year and is happy to get it, puts tons of effort in, and spends his/her time learning outside of work to invest in themselves. The college kid with just as much knowledge and experience in the industry as the high school diploma wants $75,000 - $100,000 and is usually burned out and doesn’t want to do things outside the job to invest in themselves since they think that degree should’ve done that. I blame the messaging and marketing of schools.
College isn’t for everyone and, frankly, I’d rather see trade school and practical academies/vocational schools rise up with 3-12 month programs.
The tech industry is just different in that it evolves so much faster than other industries. Degree or not, you need to be constantly learning to keep up. I'm surprised that anyone with a related degree wouldn't know this
If anything, medicine is increasing their requirements.
Nursing is an excellent example; most states are requiring nurse practitioners to have a Doctoral level degree to match the education of the other team members that make similar decisions. ADN in nursing is falling out of favor as the only training one has. BS in pharmacy programs were phased out in 2000.
If a degree is pointless why do so many employers list a degree as part of the job requirements? A degree is important if you want to work in a white collar job. The problem is that the ROI of a degree is being crushed. The amount of people that have a degree skyrocketed, diluting its value. In addition, the cost of higher education is astronomical now. All of this results in making it a much poorer investment today than it was 50 years ago. A degree can still be valuable but you have get one that lands you into a lucrative field otherwise you might not get a good return on investment.
When I was hiring I would prefer someone with experience over someone with a degree. The position was for maintenance at a plant though. I’ve also helped hire supervisors and I lean towards work experience within the company rather than a degree.
My current job needs a degree IMO. There’s a lot of technical stuff and other personal skills that college taught me.
From where I sit in the engineering ranks, it’s what you know and what you DO with it that theres a growing split. I am seeing a TON of engineers both new grads and mid career who know fucking nothing useful in their discipline and have no practical experience. Like they start useless and stay useless. Combine that with the huge waves of abruptly retiring boomers who have done zero knowledge turnover after hoarding their knowledge and responsibility for decades, it’s become a lot harder TO learn the practical from someone who knows. It’s really bizarre. We have almost like a intellectual/skill recession in our industry.
So, back to degrees, you must have the degree to get in the door as an engineer, but WHAT you know specifically in practical real-world experience (which due to the aforementioned dynamics you must have drive and initiative to seek out) , and your political people skills to tolerate/navigate all the stupidity and chaos, those are the ones rapidly rising to the top in all ways. Anyway that is just what came to mind when I read your question.
I would say the degree is valuable in certain fields. There are jobs that require a 4 year degree where I work. My employer will also start you at a higher wage if you got over a 3.0 in college. This is not true for every job though.
This is always a fun topic. Broadly the answer is yes absolutely worth doing a degree.
Now the core reason is simply the fact we have moved to a knowledge economy. The broad range of skills gained from doing a degree means you are capable of completing modern jobs. Does this mean we are fairly compensated, absolutely not...
Beyond the economic need for skilled workers, the degree gives you a great experience, you engage with a topic that interests you to a high level, and you learn lifelong learning skills.
The lifelong learning has been an excellent skill. I ended up doing a undergrad degree in politics, a masters in economy, and an interdisciplinary PhD focusing on computer mediated communication of science. After all that I taught myself IT and ended up in a well paid DevOps job.
If your looking for degree = high pay then like many ideas about the workplace it is very much a dead idea (just like company loyalty or working your way up a company).
That said student loans has seriously been a headache. I left my undergrad with a debt of 21k... my current debt is 21k after a decade... at least the UK student loan system is pay of 9% of salary after a threshold is passed. The interest rate is also locked to a low % but we have seen that spike with inflation sky rocketing.
When I finished my degree we were in the 2008 financial crisis and you were lucky to get a retail job or a call centre job. The economy has not been great since which has helped the feeling that degrees are worthless. So I can sympathise with people feeling that way.
I have a bullshit degree and checking off the box of whether or not you have a Bachelor’s can immediately push your application through or send it into the abyss.
Stem fields benefit from having a degree. If your degree is projected to earn you less per year than it costs to get, after 3-5 years of experience, don't get it.
The value of the degree is still net-positive even though the social rarity of a person with a particular degree has gone down significantly. The key takeaway is to only get a particular degree/school/etc IF you can afford it. Don't put your education cost on your future self and hope that you'll one day pay it off. Make a financial plan BEFORE going for the degree.
It depends. I don’t have a four year and when I was looking for a “big girl job” there were a lot of large corporations that wouldn’t even look at me. I ended up landing a position at a smaller company with a couple hundred employees. I had to take a very low paying job, which was fine, and work my way up. I didn’t have a ton of experience but (and I’m not trying to toot my own horn) I’m a really hard working and I’m a pretty smart person.
It’s been over 3 years and it’s been a great ride so far.
Depends on what you plan to do with your life. People would say my psych degree is pointless bc you don’t make much money with it and you usually fill high stress case manager roles. I got it bc I’m pursuing grad school and need a masters to get the license I want.
It's supply and demand.
Since more people are getting degrees, it doesn't mean the demand for degree holders go up.
So now that more people have degrees they are worth less than before, obviously not all degrees are the same.
The problem is that people are dumb and think this means "you need a masters now"
Job interviews should be more about demonstrating skills, rather than showing up and pitching yourself and hiding behind credentials.
Degree has never been useful, it's your standing against competitions. Let's say good jobs go to top 10% of people, when only 10% of people get degrees, degree will signify them as good candidates for good jobs. When everyone has a degree, it no longer signifies such and lose its value. However degrees from top 10% of institutions are still useful, and good jobs still go to them. When everyone has a degree, get better degrees to stand out from the competition.
Economically useful for certified/licensed careers and if you can "spin" it towards something quasi-related, but back it up with skills (which were probably acquired outside the degree program). That's pretty much it these days.
For accounting, consider taking some quick certification programs on Coursera or LinkedIn Learning etc. that wasn't on your degree program you could apply during a job interview (probably some niche field in finance, business management, or ML/analytics) but don't let taking the class stall you from applying to jobs.
Depends. I dare say every job I apply to either having a degree is required or it has helped me immensely in standing out. Getting your first job or a job when you don’t have much experience is always frustrating and hellish because of the paradox of everyone wanting experience.
My suggestion? Apply anyway. The worst they can do is reject your application.
I don’t think degrees are worthless, but what I do see is a lot of people with bachelors degrees ending up working jobs that have no relation to the degree. I work in a law office (as support staff not an attorney ) and one of my coworkers has a bachelor’s in history. I have my bachelor’s in political science. A bachelor’s in politics science is kinda extremely useless unless you’re doing it to go to law school and to look good for that.
I think we have an issue of people getting degrees in things that don’t have a clear path to related jobs, but I still think college degrees help a lot.
Wishing you best of luck. I was so frustrated and angry and it really affected my mental health until I got my first entry level job in my field. The first job to get experience you need truly is the hardest to get hired for.
Depends on the career path. Some obviously need degrees with no getting around it.
It’s certainly possible to make a good living without one through trades, starting your own business, or even working your way up over time.
The unfortunate part is that many employers have put a degree requirement on jobs that don’t really need it barring people without one. It can make job hunting pretty hard with a degree, but the one you land because of it now may not actually pay enough to make it a worthwhile investment.
So in general, I’d say for the most part, yes you need one. But it’s not the ticket to upper middle class that we were lead to believe. You may get a job that requires a degree that barely pays enough to cover the loan payments.
A degree is a piece of paper. It means you can pass a test. If you can't convert what you learned to pass the test into every day life. It's worthless.
It really depends on the field and what you’re trying to do with your degree.
Some people just get a degree to have a degree and don’t really think through what they want to do with said degree.
It’s worse, you need more than a bachelors. Masters, postgraduate, doctorates, etc. Then you need internships, personal connections. The pickings are slim, and everything is more competitive.
Idk my wife has 2 degrees and her job keeps pressuring her to go back and get her masters. It would net us another 75k in debt and they are willing to give her a dollar raise once she gets it. Degrees are looking kind of like a scam from someone (me) who doesn't have one. But if you don't (like me) you get shoe horned into manual labor and that kind of sucks too.
Mostly. I know someone with two master’s, two certifications, loads of experience and $125k of debt, can’t turn a screwdriver or use a drill, and can’t even get a job waiting tables
Even if all your degree does is qualify you for an office job, you have to consider the lifestyle benefits that come along. Even if some white collar work isn’t paying a premium to more blue collar work, if the difference is marginal most would pick the office work. It’s one thing when you’re young, but as you hit your 40s and 50s more active/physical work will take its tool.
Personally I’d go office job, just so I can have more energy after work for kids/household stuff/leisure etc. There’s a lot of trade offs to balance and nuances to the whole thing. No one size fits all.
My degree as a symbol or piece of paper has never landed me a job, however, the skills I learned in college are useful every single day and are the reason I have a career in the field I studied.
I wouldn’t consider myself successful in my own way if I didn’t have a college degree. It’s about having the right college degree. I mean you can graduate with a degree in literature, French, liberal arts and the like, but don’t expect having these degrees will give you a high-paying salary compared to the ones who graduated majoring in STEM, medical or business/finance. The real problem is “following your dreams” isn’t all that promising anymore. There’s nothing wrong doing it if it is within the realm of reality. I mean what career pays top dollar for a degree in literature nowadays? Unless you become lucky like JK Rowling or George R R Martin, there’s nothing really below that level of success that can give you a decent career out of it apart from being a professor. The worst part, “following your dreams” by going to that expensive university to give you fancy bragging rights with a super fat student loan for a degree that doesn’t equate to a nice career. This is one of the paths that will have you stuck being a barista.
One of the biggest problems with college is how anti social students are.
Networking is really important. And your account professor is a fantastic networking hub for accounting careers.
Quality professors often have one foot in academia and the other foot in the business world and can easily be a bridge for ambitious students to cross from education to a career.
It’s not that college is pointless, but that college is two-fold. You get the diploma to prove competency. And you have the institutions to provide networking paths.
The people who just get degrees without networking are shooting themselves in the foot.
—-
Side note, companies often do years of experience as a barrier to reduce hundreds or thousands of applicants. Highly competitive jobs need ways to cull swarms of applicants.
Having networks can skip that process sometimes.
When I got my first degree, I just did prerequisites for grad school only. My job outside of school wasn't related, I barely volunteered, and as soon as I was done with class I rushed off campus to fart around and play video games or whatever. I did the bare minimum that was required to pass, and while it got me a degree I missed out on the real value of college.
My second degree, I majored in nursing, I networked heavily with faculty and local employers who stopped by to see us. I joined clubs, volunteered, went for straight A's, and worked a job to build my fundamental nursing skills while in school. As a result, when I graduated I had a robust network of people I could reach out to if needed, hiring managers trying to recruit me, and a TON of opportunity ahead of me.
I think the idea of "it's not the grades you make, it's the hands you shake" isn't 100% accurate, it's more like both are important as well as strategically taking opportunities available to you.
supply and demand.
cost of the degeree vs how much money you can make in your life time earnings
also there shouldn't just be one main route of education. the priority of shoveling as many people through college in the last 40 years was a mistake. we should have kept the primary 4 avenues for post secondary education
1.) university
2.) vocational schools
3.) apprenticeship
4.) company job training programs
Out of curiosity, when did you graduate from college? I am also an accountant. I graduated college in 2011, and the economy was still rebounding from the "great recession," so jobs were opening up, but I was competing with people who had been laid off, had plenty of experience, and were taking whatever they could get.
I eventually got my foot in the door, but it took a while to get there. I am a manager now and make very good money. You can use an accounting degree for literally anything in business as well.
Unfortunately a lot of companies still gatekeep the best positions behind degrees. I’ve seen a lot of qualified people get turned down for roles because they didn’t have the schooling.
My job flat out requires a graduate level degree (masters or PhD - you get paid more if you have the PhD).
I absolutely love my job and this line of work is why I pursued my degrees.
I just think that students should have a real tangible reason for getting a degree. I never view having spent time learning new things as time wasted. Learning is going to have a positive effect. It's up to the student to determine if that effect is worth it though.
The type of degree is increasing in significance.
Edit: conditional for those looking to leverage their degree for a well paying job. Eg my little bro works at a museum and is happy as a clam. He knew going into his field, he was pursuing happiness rather than money.
Here’s the thing there’s a lot of anecdotes in this thread but look up the average career earnings by education level. It’s pretty straightforward.
Yeah this is all you need to refute this. Outliers don’t matter and higher ed has a direct correlation to higher income.
The biggest thing is what you do with a degree. The degree itself doesn’t guarantee you a better life. It’s just a steeping stone on the way.
Yeh but it’s still a HUGE stepping stone. Of course you could go the trade route. But even an education degree masters level in some states could drop you at 90k salary. And if it doesn’t benefit you, it will benefit your kids, higher educated parents usually set their kids up for a better life. They understand the education system and career path better than parents who have no clue how that system works or who never finished.
>The biggest thing is what you do with a degree. The degree itself doesn’t guarantee you a better life. It’s just a steeping stone on the way. Especially if you pursued something 'that'd pay big money' but you barely even tolerate the field. Good, now you're among the least motivated people in a big money field, guess how many people are getting hired before you are?
Started realizing this recently. What is the point of pursuing a difficult field like computer science or software engineering if I'm just doing it for the money? I should be able to wake up in the morning and look forward to *something* about the job I go to.
You solve really difficult problems occasionally and get a sense of satisfaction having done so. Plus a nice bonus At least in my experience
As a software engineer I get this satisfaction, but if someone was studying and trying to get in the field for the money, without the core interest, these problems and puzzles probably won’t give that satisfaction.
[удалено]
If you aren’t excited about programming, it just means you aren’t good enough at it. The power you feel when you’re an expert is insane, like you can create whatever your heart desires.
Ah sorry, you misunderstand. I'm not a programmer to begin with, it's just been on my radar as a sort of, "Make lots of money doing a job everyone wants" kind of job, so I thought briefly about pursuing it. Then I realized I need to focus on my strengths, and delve into careers that I know I can do well in and be happy about. CS isn't one of them. Still, some day when I have time I'd like to dabble in coding or something, might be a fun little side thing.
People don’t realize that the degree is a tool to help you and not a guaranteed meal ticket. Somebody with a higher education and no experience is not starting at the same place as somebody with no higher education and no experience. It’s not even close.
There is a trend of some companies, especially tech, starting to remove a degree as an absolute requirement if the person has other real world experience. I’ve also met so many people 10+ years into their careers who went to college for something entirely different than what they are doing.
That’s true but I wonder if there’s something to the idea that the content of an undergrad degree is becoming less meaningful in jobs. Like I have a degree and a higher income but I’ve never directly used what I was taught in my major.
Specific knowledge, maybe not -- depends on the major and how directly applicable to a specific career it might be. But reading, writing, critical thinking skills? Exposure to a broader range of knowledge and information? Sure, there are plenty of people who manage to bumble through college and come out roughly as clueless as they went in, but a lot of people apply themselves benefit greatly just from learning new things.
I (degree holder) manage a company with employees who are mostly only high-school educated. The main thing I notice is the communication skills.
Communication skills are a big one, but I find that correlates more with people who are good at reading. I've worked with lots of folks who didn't go to any sort of post-secondary and it's always easy to spot someone who was a big reader as a kid. It's why I think reading is the single most important skill we can learn and refine. Everything else comes relatively easy to someone who can read well and comprehend what they're reading.
It's transferable skills. Has been for a while. That combined with who you are as a person. There's a lot you can do with some key skills (analytical, mathematical, computer, investigative, communication, and so forth), motivation and hard work. A degree provides the framework to develop key skills. So the degree is important, but people think about the value of degrees far too directly.
I’m a nurse and it’s a legal requirement to have a nursing degree from an accredited college. All depends on your field.
I have a family member that was VIP at a Fortune 500. Her admin asst had a dance degree. It doesn’t always matter what kind of degree only that have one
The knowledge truly doesn’t matter, companies and individuals within any industry use the degree as a barrier to weed out others. So even if you had the skill before, the degree is like a certification of trust that you will be professional, do your job, complete tasks on time etc. the lack of degree doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t do those things but the degree at least proves that you can.
Exactly what I came to say.
It'll get lower every year. I'd genuinely like to see what the results are 20 years from now, will the average college graduate make more? Probably yes, but it won't be as much.
Hard disagree, I expect that gap to accelerate.
The world is becoming more specialized and technical. It is definitely going to accelerate.
Yes, as well as the generic divide between manual jobs and thought jobs growing, with the former earning less in real terms and the latter requiring a degree in virtually all cases.
Yes, but you're not accounting for A.I. being able to take over a large chunk of the 'thought' jobs. I forsee A.I. taking over a lot of those jobs. Where as the more manual jobs those require full robots with a lot more moving parts and maintenance required.
I agree that some thought jobs (the ones that require limited thought) are vulnerable to AI. But these pale in comparison to the repetitive manual jobs that are not only vulnerable to AI, they’ve already been decimated by mere mechanization. The latter will continue to disappear at a much higher rate than thought jobs.
You're absolutely correct but information is more readily available than ever thanks to the internet and there is an ever growing industry of alternative education options. With the wealth gap continuously getting larger and the cost of traditional 4 year university skyrocketing way faster than the rate of inflation, I'm really curious to see what the education landscape will look like in a couple decades.
The problem is that the vast majority of people who barely cleared a high school diploma are absolutely not the people who are going to Google Search themselves into a better life either. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but broadly speaking, if you're not motivated to get an education, you're also not motivated to educate yourself. You can try to argue 'Oh it's easier to access information, you don't even really need an education at all!' but there's a whole army of high school diploma fast food and Amazon delivery workers who are never going do better than what they have right now.
Information is a small part of college. A lot of the value is learning to study, manage time, network, think critically. Demonstrating an ability to persevere, rise above others, handle adversity. Personally I like to see that potential employees have the work ethic to do well in subjects they don’t like or think aren’t important.
I second this. Even if people have more non-degree paths to getting the same jobs, they will always take longer. Thus, a true "years of experience" comparison will always be dramatically in favor of those with degrees. At my company, an undergrad takes 4 years off the hiring requirements and a masters takes another 2. So, I was eligible to be hired at a more senior grad with 9 years of experience when it would have taken a non-degree 15. However, when you factor in that most of the early non-degree work is typically unrelated to the higher pay fields, it actually is more like 20 years of total work experience when I'm still at 9 with an MBA. I've also noticed that I'm given slightly more opportunities for growth and development than my older peers because I have more career runway and therefore more chance at climbing the corporate ladder. Not saying this fact is fair, but it's the reality.
Indeed. Especially because all these hiring algorithms won’t even acknowledge your application/resume without a BA or higher if they’ve put that in as a requirement/preference.
lol. there is zero evidence to support this conclusion. Maybe if you’re talking about an art history degree.
Yep. I have a job I’m very proud of and am the top executive in the company, achieved without any college education. However if I want to increase my earning potential and retire with any money I really should graduate to lawyer or engineer in the same field, both obviously require degrees. I could actually get certified as an engineer in this field without a degree but that’s pretty unique to my industry so I won’t digress. Now the impact of how expensive college has become is a whole other conversation.
A degree by itself won't do much. I'm in IT and the ideal job candidates for us have a relevant degree, IT certifications and relevant experience.
I think median income by education path would be more accurate
I came here to say basically this. My job requires a minimum of a bachelor's degree. With a single bachelor's degree, I'm working in the field of my degree and starting salary is just under 6 figures. I'm also the in the least educated bracket in my department (Single BS degree). I'm working in my MS now which will give me the ability to get a promotion. About a third of the people I work with have PhDs another third have master's degree's and the rest have one or more bachelor's degree. (I work in aerospace)
It’s always the unemployed redditors that will preach a gospel to you that the higher education system is a joke and degrees are worthless
While I agree anecdotal evidence is very limited broad degree views are also not the full picture either. The breakdown by industry/degree is a lot more useful. All in all, using a degree to get a specific kind of job is highly effective. But getting a degree to get a degree (AKA go to college and “figure it out”) is a very bad idea that was pushed heavily in the 90’s-00’s
More specific data often is more helpful. Certain skills tend to be highly valued. It's why STEM degrees are pushed so hard
Not disagreeing with you, however I will state that those "career earnings" metrics are a trailing indicator The income of a people who graduated college in the 70s, 80s, or 90s and comparing them to non college degree holders' income is not necessarily a good indicator of what the degree vs trade school earnings will be in 2030, 2040, or 2050. In 1980 only 17% of the 25 and older population had a BS or higher. In 2019, it's 36%. Fact is the supply and demand has flipped and now BS holding employees are bidding each other down on salary more than BS desiring companies are bidding salaries up
Is the information you’re looking at controlling for just a degree? If the average income of people that have a country club membership is 200k does joining a country club improve my long term income outlook? The people that have degrees are typically going to have several other factors that make their long term earnings higher.
It may improve it because of the connections you make at the country club.
Typical studies of the impact of a degree will control for a number of confounding variables. The finding that a degree increases income is extremely robust, but the gap does seem to be shrinking.
Source on the gap shrinking? Data I have seen from the Federal Reserve and US Department of Commerce indicate the opposite.
The data is new enough and noisy enough that I wouldn't suggests it's clear (hence the "seems"). But importantly, the argument is focus on "return on investment" not merely the wage premium. So, it takes into account the rising costs of college. Here are 2 sources, discussing 2 different studies. One supports the (slight) fall in ROI while the other suggests an increase in ROI. https://www.businessinsider.com/college-is-still-a-good-investment-2019-6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/avivalegatt/2024/04/05/4-secrets-to-college-admissions-success/?sh=6e5dcbf51960
My starting annual salary as a chemical engineer was about $85k at age 22. I'd say that allowed me to network and volunteer more freely since I knew my basic needs were easily being met. I'd say the leg up my parents gave me by helping me through college was the main factor in me finishing that degree, but I also worked my first job at 18 in one of the campus geological research facilities, then jumped to a biodiesel production lab, then got an internship at 20, then that company hired me after I graduated. I also got scholarships to help me through college as well as the pay from those campus jobs. I knew some classmates who got jobs at the engineering library and basically got paid to do homework. People made it work. But as I said, the networking was key...people hate on frats and sororities, but some fail to realize the lasting effects of being social. In order to do that you need to have your basic needs met...I went a non-Greek route but still made connections and those connections, Greek or not, are still some of my best friends over a decade later.
Absolutely this. Even in non-technical fields (poli sci major here) connections with faculty, potential employers via internships, access to career services resources and alumni networks, all those things are invaluable professionally if you bother to use them. My anecdata re: my "less successful" college friends is that they never actually bothered to use a lot of what they paid for -- never went to office hours, never applied for a research assistant position or similar, never went to career services or used other resources that are a huge part of the value your tuition pays for, and sort of just expected a job to materialize on graduation. I also was non-Greek and met some of my best friends in college, though I'll say ultimate frisbee never did actually get me a job.
You’ll be surprised what country club memberships can do. I’ve met many idiots in lucrative jobs whose primary qualification is being the son of a country club friend.
I learned what median income meant in high school, guess that was lost in the sands of time. Double median income is a pretty definitive number…
Yeah, I think a lot of people are talking about peak earnings, where the trades do quite well. But if we're talking lifetime earnings, the trades probably fall behind, just because you physically can't do it when you're 70, and those defined benefit pensions our parents locked in are looong gone. Which, now that I type it, doesn't really sound like much of a virtue. Oh yay, we *get* to work until we die, how lucky are we
I don’t need your facts and figures derailing my narrative.
Trade schools are starting to overcome a simple 4 year bachelor degree. And, AI is going to impact college grads the most.
https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/07/26/which-u-s-workers-are-more-exposed-to-ai-on-their-jobs/#:~:text=Certain%20groups%20of%20workers%20have,to%20see%20the%20most%20exposure.
Don't assume causation from correlation! But yeah, in this case it seems pretty fair to assume at least some amount of causation.
I have a general Art degree, started as a call center rep at a bank, made connections and worked my way up to an analyst in Anti money laundering and terrorism financing. However, criminal justice degrees start near where I am at without having to do everything I did to get where I am at. So all depends on the field and employer. In my situation a degree didn’t matter but cost me 12 years of additional work with less pay than someone who is coming out of college with a degree in the field.
I'll second this obvious point. I'm a self taught developer and it took me probably 5 years to find a job that didn't require all of my time (I value work life balance) to just get to a 50k paying salary. 10 years later and I'm making the upper average for a senior dev in my area... But essentially it took me MUCH longer to get a market rate than others who had a degree. This notion that degrees are pointless is misguided imo.
Similar story for me. My job technically requires a master's degree, but I put in a decade of work to counteract that. I probably also don't get paid as much as someone with a masters, but I also don't have the added student loans. You absolutely need a college degree for my field- undergrad minimum.
Imo there are too many people who go get a degree with no idea what they want to do and then they get some degree that has no earning potential. They should have an idea what they want to do and then go get a degree based on that. I've always wanted to work in cyber security. So it's obvious that an IT degree was the way to go.
Yeah, but you were making $50K/year instead of spending it and not making nothing. So I’d bet you’re slightly better off than most of your educated peers long term.
On average, it balances out by the mid 30's and degree holders tend to go on to make more over the remaining 30 years of their career. So while it does tend to equate to a more economically rich entry to the work force, it tends to slow down much quicker and stagnate much longer. There will always be edge cases, but statistically, it's not the case.
So in other words, useless majors lead to degrees that are worth less and aren’t worth the time or money spent.
My sociology degree has done more for me than not having one would
Mine hasn't sadly lol, I've given up and just drive for uber eats now. Atlanta sucks......
Same. Mine did absolutely nothing for me. Thankfully, my second degree in accounting did the complete opposite. Before and after graduation, I have had recruiters non-stop asking me to interview for their jobs. Even today, I get 3-4 recruiters a month asking me to interview.
I'm an accountant as well, my degree is certainly how I got into the career. That cpa on the end of your name is why recruiters are going after you though. I wouldn't say it's required to have a good career, but it's needed to open a lot of doors in the management level or public side.
Of course, but not really for the reason of having a cpa as much as what having a cpa indirectly represents. Most of the people I work with at any of my jobs haven’t been CPAs. I’m usually somewhat of a black sheep wherever I go, but I still get surrounded by people who are just as smart and hard working or many times smarter and more hardworking. I’ll never actually use my cpa unless if I make it to CAO or CFO. The most I’ve used it in industry was a SOX auditor put a single sentence of “cpa designation indication of professional competency” for a singular control out of a 160+ control matrix. So, I basically haven’t used it at all, lol. Having a cpa is just another recruiter flag for “highly motivated/highly experienced” much like having a degree used to be a flag for that. But for every sociology job, there’s probably hundreds or thousands of applicants, and most of us were not putting out enough signals to get out the competition. In accounting, starting out, there is almost no competition, so I got multiple internships and job offers without being a CPA.
A bit over a decade ago I was dating a girl long distance as she applied to med school. She ended up going to school in Atlanta and I considered moving there, but was concerned about my job prospects if I did. We broke up and glad I didn't move to Atlanta.
I've met alot of homeless stem majors down here, including engineering. I've seen people with multiple degrees and years of experience get stuck down here because they can't find a job. You'd be surprised how many people come down here with NOTHING lined up thinking it'll just be gravy, only to exhaust their savings and go right back up north lol. I mean, there are jobs.....if you want to work at a warehouse or restaurant that is. Most white collar jobs go to people with connections, which leaves most jobs staffed by under qualified people who get by because they go to the same church or they smoke with someone high up on the weekends (yes I watched that literally happen at one company.....a company that you have to drug test to get in mind you lol)
I once talked to a guy under a bridge in Atlanta who claimed to be a Georgia Tech grad years before that point but just got addicted to heroin. During our conversation another homeless guy approached us and the Georgia Tech guy was like "don't give him anything, he's not even on drugs". I'm a STEM major that also left Atlanta, even though I grew up around there. There are more opportunities in the smaller and cheaper midwestern city I'm in now.
I worked in hospitality full time for years before using my degree. Still do now part time. No shame in gig work
[удалено]
That's BS
I’m not sure I think degrees are pointless, but I would argue many degrees are more valuable than others. Degrees with direct job opportunities are where people need to target. Concept degrees are a tougher road because you’re going to have to get an employer to get on you more. That being said accounting should be one you can get in with. It’s a tough market out there but please keep applying. Your break is coming with a degree like accounting 🤞
[удалено]
Yea some jobs definitely require it I'm trying to get back in to get an education degree to teach math. I couldn't work in medical field lol I have the weakest stomach
If you have a bachelors degree already, you can probably start teaching full time while completing your degree requirements. Look up alternative certification, or emergency certification, or provisional certification or something similar in your school district - each one seems to call “teaching with a bachelors degree in a field other than education while completing education coursework” something different.
If your perspective is the only value in a degree is career earnings based the value of a degree is probably at its lowest point ever. If you believe education and a degree has personal value in growth and understanding of the world then no it has a lot of value. It says alot about society that we reduce every aspect of everything to your only value is being a worker or consumer. In part even recognizing or questioning that is prerequisited by education.
So I fully agree with this part >If you believe education and a degree has personal value in growth and understanding of the world then no it has a lot of value. People should be viewing higher education in that light. However given colleges charge upwards 6 figures to earn the degree, can you really blame people for looking at it in terms of return on investment?
Except higher education has been bastardized by the for profit motive behind it. Now LSU is known for its lazy river rather than its educational prowess. We need to stop the profit model privatization of public universities and start focusing on education rather than recreation
No argument here. College should be fun. God knows I enjoyed my time there. But I enjoyed my time "off campus" making friends, going to parties. Out side of the occasional gaming / LAN party in a computer lab (was a student IT worker so this was semi-sanctioned) on-campus was pretty dry. I would argue that if people valued education for the sake of education more some of this other BS, like a lazy river apparently (I didn't know about that) would decrease. And MAYBE we could reduce some of the waste and bring down some of these high costs.
I had a friend that paid for college and the professors let me sit in class and learn for free. I wasn’t a student. But I was cool and they let me chill there. I obviously didn’t get a diploma. But I think if people want to learn for free, the options are out there for those with ambition.
Personally I've always wanted to see schools drop all of the sports. Sure some of the big college level teams are profitable, but the vast majority are just a drain on the budgets. Maybe some system where the NFL/NBA/MLB sponsors the big state schools as a minor league. My university had a multimillion dollar stadium as a D3 school and I don't even want to know how much every student was paying for the athletic budget.
Exactly, people aren’t going to college for self enrichment. They want a job.
Yes, but not every college is 6 figures. That’s because we’ve attached college name to prestige/social status. We can detach and detangle this from education in of itself.
I'm not trying to say the current system isn't broken and need of correction. I AM trying to say the correction should NOT be the devaluing or reduction in people getting educations. The past was built on labor. A very small number of educated people and a very large number of uneducated workers mostly in agriculture. Those days are GONE, I struggle to see a future where we return to that model and the global economy doesn't collapse. I strongly believe the future is going to need an educated work force. The Boomers are leaving the work force whether hey want to or not. AI is probably not going to deliver what what the billionaire class expects. Even if we exclude innovation and growth we would need a lot of educated people just to maintain our current technology level going forward.
No, not trying to lay blame at all. But if I include every point and counter point no one would read my screen long screed. However, I will argue that a LOT of people today do believe education only has value in career and earning. It's a point of fairly great conflict between me and and my boomer parents who try to talk me out of sending my daughter to college. I would also argue that while college today is ridiculously expensive, it was also somewhat ridiculously cheap through the boomer and GenX years. So we probably have a somewhat skewed view. I would love to argue free higher education for all. But lets get real that's as likely as National Healthcare (in the US obviously). #American't
I mean, this is noble and everything, but the financial part is where pragmatism enters the chat. It’s not like degrees are free (at least in the US)—if that were the case, we could pursue them solely for the pursuit of knowledge. But the reality is, you could be making anywhere from a 50k-200k+ investment in a degree. ROI *has* to be a factor, unless you’re independently wealthy.
There are other ways to 'learn about the world' without sinking g yourself in massive amounts of debt
Exactly. I am learning about snakes. A place in Atlanta gives courses for as low as $350, and some you can use on a resume. Also, they have live handling seminars.
Excellent perspective. Thank you for saying that.
> It says alot about society that we reduce every aspect of everything to your only value is being a worker or consumer. This is perfect
Lol I would be inclined to agree with you except the small teensy fact that most people have to go 5-6 figures in debt in order to get their degrees. So if they don’t make their money back on it with surplus then they’re swimming in poverty. Growth and understanding of the world is nice but I can’t eat it or sleep under its roof.
Lots of people are in unsustainable student loan debt. For those individuals, giving more weight to the financial merits of a degree would be a good thing for their future health and welfare. If someone is either already financially independent or willing to make significant sacrifices as a consumer, then yes, they need be less worried about the financial merits of degrees.
Everyone has their own perspective. I've always been curious, been a big reader, and been into learning. I believe there are many ways to learn- internet, books/libraries, workshops, etc. There's some amazing stuff in Cspan. For me, curiosity and learning isn't necessarily based on classrooms. If I really wanted just to learn, I can take a few courses and pay out of pocket or take out relatively small loans. Students loans can really screw up someone's life. In fact, schools are quite limiting. One chooses from a curriculum. There's no way it can accommodate every single interest. If i wanted to learn about cubism and then learn to sew and then learn some jazz, I could just go do it. Not everyone is classroom oriented either. Student loans can stop someone from doing things they are actually interested in.
My friend went to a college and the professors there let me sit in a lot of classes for free. I got to learn for free! I had a lot of fun, but because I wasn’t a student, I didn’t get a degree or access to any student resources. But I think a lot of people would hate college if it was free and they didn’t get a degree. Not a lot of people like learning for the sake of learning :((
Your comment sounds like a nothing sandwich of words. What is going to happen is we’ll end up like Japan struggling with hikikomori because of an influx of too many people with educated degrees are offing themselves because of not finding work/unrealistic social and family expectations of success. You are already seeing this happen with Gen Z with high teen su1c1d3 rates. The only difference between Japan and U.S. is Japan lacks civil rights movements that we accomplished in the states and even then, we are still progressing.
You don't need a degree for growth or an understanding of the world, you need a degree to check a box for an online application so the AI reviewing the resumes can move on to the next round of do you have the key words we are looking for too. Degrees are worthless.
Every single successful person I know has a degree. My life literally changed once I got an associates degree and changed AGAIN once I got a Bachelor's degree. I make six figures as a single black male from a low income single mother household. The odds were stacked against me and I sincerely feel they would've been worse had I never gotten an education, it's literally put me in a position to earn even more.
I second the medical degrees aren’t for looks. My job requires a masters degree and it wasn’t fluff.
The fallout from 2008 is still prevalent today in the white collar job sector and you have people with years of experience who clean up what would be “entry level” so it’s the chicken and egg game for those without experience but can’t get any because every job wants experience. So what do these 22 years old do who can’t catch a break? They are at Amazon, Starbucks, Walmart, the list goes on where they make under $25 an hour but their standard student loan payment is $300 plus a month. And the longer these people stay in these types of roles the less likely it is they will ever land that entry level professional role where in todays cost of living environment you simply can not survive on $25 an hour in most areas without help. Point being you could get a broad degree in psychology, business, etc.. 20 years ago and walk into most jobs and be able to develop technical skills on the job while you bartended your way through college… Today kids need the degree, several specialized internships and it’s still a competitive landscape for these broad white collar jobs that don’t require a specific degree like nursing, attorney, etc… It’s funny because many managers who demand these plug and play skills from day 1 were given the chance to develop technical skills on the job. Then these same companies want to bitch about loyalty when all they do is poach instead of developing in house talent. Generally speaking degrees are pointless today without connections or highly specialized internships because the barrier to entry is significantly higher than the generations previously. I didn’t realize the severity of the problem until when I went to apply for internships and the internships were requiring previous internships 🤦♂️
There is just a lot of competition. The best performers who went to the top schools, got the best grades, and have the best internships are the ones getting hired. That’s not because degrees are pointless, it’s because most people struggling aren’t the top of their field and there’s nothing left for them.
Whether or not a degree has any impact on your livelihood probably depends more so on what the degree is in rather than having an actual degree. I see this sentiment a lot on this sub though: “We did everything they told us to do and now we have nothing”…and then OP got a Masters in Finger Painting or something.
This. I'm always a little surprised when people question whether degrees are worth it. I'm certainly not hiring any engineers without at least one (preferably two or three) of those, regardless of level. I've also never been in the position of applying for work outside my field because a key factor in choosing a major was "has a growing job market".
My father passed the state engineering exams without a degree and worked for 40 years as a plant manager...
Thats the exception not the rule. It's like trying to hire a pipe fitter as a doctor without a degree just because they learned some basic medical skills. Generally...no thank you.
Yeah and how long ago was that?
Different time
Funny. I'm an engineer with no degree. Years of experience often trumps a degree.
In my field, it's more of a legal requirement. I know there are some fields that play fast and loose with the word engineer, but civil is not one of them.
100% agree. I’m a licensed PE and too many people throw around the word “engineer” like writing code is the same as being the person that signs off on a bridge.
I'm a low voltage and security installer with a physics background. For me, having my degree I can understand interference and electrical components at their fundamental levels that makes my projects go smoothly vs my other colleges that learn through trial and error. Knowing it doesn't work isn't the same thing as Knowing why it doesn't work. Having the experience and the fundamentals background makes you most efficient.
Right? My first degree was in network administration (hardware side of tech) and second is in nursing. Both has granted me a pretty decent living opportunity - moreso nursing than IT, but nevertheless...
If everyone was talented then no one would be. Apply that to a degree
I don't know how useful having a degree is as an advantage but I can tell you from experience that not having a degree is a hell of a disadvantage, especially if you're not suited for the fields most accessible to folks without degrees. I'm sure my application is automatically filtered out immediately because of the lack of degree, especially with shitty work history and no network. Wouldn't recommend.
Honestly I know more people that got into good-paying jobs thru connections/social circle/nepotism than people who got into good-paying jobs "with a degree alone" and no such similar connections The old saying "it's not what you know, it's who you know" is still true even in the year 2024 Social skills/connections still reign supreme
The ideal situation is both. My roommate in college was a smart guy studying business. While everyone was working various jobs at the mall or whatever. He started volunteering and working at one of the nicer golf courses in the area. Officially he had a job as a dishwasher but would spend all day there hanging out with the other staff. After a few months he was helping organize charity tournaments for rich execs. Planning, cadying, etc. Through those connections he got into management for a large pharmaceutical and is doing very well for himself. This is a unique case study. But if you don't have the "right" connections so to speak. There are ways to find them.
Anecdotal evidence, got my degree in finance with almost a 4.0 GPA and 5 honors and internships. Took 3.5 years to any job in my field by just applying, never got an interview. Reached out to one contact and got an interview and a job at a white shoe firm almost instantly. Take it from me, if you're in college right now just network. Learn from my mistakes, that's all that matters.
I (no degree) make more than most of my degreed peers, but also, I’ve been passed over by many HR departments while job hunting in the past due to my lack of a degree regardless of being overqualified for the positions I was applying for at the time. So take what you will from that. I think it’s good to have the piece of paper, to check the box. It definitely opens doors for you that would have arbitrarily have been shut by some HR gatekeeper otherwise, but I don’t think there’s much value outside of that. It certainly hasn’t stopped me from creating a decent life for myself, and it’s saved me time and debt. If you’re trying to get into STEM work, then it probably makes more sense.
Same boat. It's a checkbox. It's one that you can get by without and get very far without. But a new position, or a new company, and regardless of your career and known experience and reputation, it's like starting all over. It's so much easier to have the box checked.
Highly depends on the field you go into. I have kids that are ages 15 down to 8 so been talking about this with the older kids. The main part of it has been to find a career that you can probably do working for yourself.
It’s better to have a degree in the long term. However, I’d argue the brand name matters more now. I received a degree from a no name small state school FGCU and it hasn’t really done much for me other than a checkbox on my resume. My cousin went to NYU and received the same undergrad degree as me(Mathematics) and they easily get interviews simply because they have a degree from a well-known school.
Although a big problem in society is that we only think a narrow band of abilities is " valuable " and end up in a huge mess. See the STEM boom and people unable to realize you need to account for how society is affected
The problem is this: degrees just for the sake of having degrees. All at a crippling cost. There’s some fields where a degree is a necessary investment and rightfully so…But other times it’s just checking an imaginary box. If a job requires “a four year degree” as in any degree, then you don’t need a degree.
The thing is to make good money today you not only need a degree, you also need to know the right people and have the right connections. Experience is a toss-up if you know the right people. Having really good social skills is so important.
The degree is less important than the tangible skillsets you get from earning it If you earn a degree and you haven’t really picked up any kind of specialized skill except googling for info to cite in reports, then yeah, good luck finding a job
Going to school to get a degree you have no idea what to do with needs to die. That's why people don't use their degrees. They get one and then realize they don't want to or can't work in an area that will utilize it. I waited to go to college until I knew what I wanted to do. Waiting until you're an independent adult is harder on school life because you often have to work through school. I just talked to my kids about all this. But it's honestly better than wasting your time and money on something you'll never use.
I'm with you on that, just go to school they said lmao. I feel like more people care about you getting the degree rather than the person putting in the work to do so.
Couldn't agree more. I went to audio engineering school at 18 (certificate program, no degree) and tried my luck in the music production industry for 3 years until I realized only 1 in 10,000 actually make it. I went back to school in my early 20s fresh from the failure of not being able to make my passion work. I started at community college and did an associates in psychology thinking that I'd be able to make something work with a close 2nd interest. It was a shock when I learned about the the career choices one could only get with a bachelor's and that years of additional schooling would have to happen to be successful. Even with a master's or Psy D, the field is pretty rough. The good thing about community college though is that it is bare bones, so it was easy to transfer to almost anything. I transferred to the business school at a university and chose accounting as my major after taking the intro classes. Before choosing, I FINALLY decided to gather a clear picture of the job landscape and usefulness of the degree before actually declaring it. It took my ass 3 tries to get it right, but I'm so thankful I actually pondered my last decision thoroughly and hard before going through with it (unlike the first two). It was really hard going through this at a less traditional age, but I like to think it built character. I ended up in a good spot anyways, just took me a little longer. But at least it is a useful place where my degree is paying off, and I have a lot of opportunity. In short (sorry this is so much longer than I intended), being deliberate about your college decision / what you choose to study is much more important than just going to college at 18 because everyone else is doing so. Parents and/or schools need to teach kids early on about the weight of their decision, career paths, job availability within their field, and average salaries so that kids can make an informed decision. Otherwise, they generally pick something they are passionate about and accumulate debt that they can't get out of it. I wish it was the opposite and that those who have different skills and knowledge sets had more of a place. But we are all victims of capitalism and the economy in the end.
A lot of degrees are pointless and shouldnt have been offered from the start. And with their prices, it's predatory
Ignore the requirements. If someone shows up to an entry level job with half the HR fluff, they will scoff at the applicants salary expectations.
It depends on the field. As a teacher, I'd never be able to get a fixed teaching position without my MA degree. People without degrees are considered a cheap hire :/
One thing Ive found about people that cant find a job with a degree is they always fail to mention where they got it. A degree from Harvard will be much more recognizable and carry more weight than a degree from some unknown school. Not only that but the connections made at top schools will be much stronger and important for finding a job. It seems the people that say they have 3 degrees and still can’t find a job probably got those degree online or at low quality schools most of the time.
Yes and no. Objectively, with the increase in numbers of college grads, a degree on its own has less value than ever. But that doesn’t touch on the fact particular degrees are worth significantly more than some while others are practically worthless. It really depends on what you’re trying to do. Plenty of high earning STEM related roles consider a degree the price of entry, and without one you’re not even going to given the time of day. Others you can get by with experience or proof of self study, but even that is becoming less of a possibility nowadays. Software used to be the poster child this but there’s apparently a push for CS degrees in the field because they’re at least known quantities vs the flood of unqualified self-taught “developers” with lackluster performance. Of course none of this really matters if you want to get into a trade, so there’s that too.
Getting a degree just for the sake of having a degree is pointless.
In my industry (cybersecurity), I’ll hire the guy that has a high school diploma and plays with a lab or goes and gets a certification over the person who goes to college for a degree in cybersecurity. The skill sets required for different things in my industry don’t necessarily require someone to spend 3-4 years of school classes to learn. A boot camp that costs $2500 for 5 days of heavy learning or a $400 - $1500 certification gives you base skills needed to understand some level of entry level concepts. The problem I tend to see with folks that have college degrees (I have mine but meh), having been a hiring manager for 7-8 years now, is that they rarely have the skills to justify the salary that their school told them they should be earning. That high school diploma kid is offered $55,000/year and is happy to get it, puts tons of effort in, and spends his/her time learning outside of work to invest in themselves. The college kid with just as much knowledge and experience in the industry as the high school diploma wants $75,000 - $100,000 and is usually burned out and doesn’t want to do things outside the job to invest in themselves since they think that degree should’ve done that. I blame the messaging and marketing of schools. College isn’t for everyone and, frankly, I’d rather see trade school and practical academies/vocational schools rise up with 3-12 month programs.
The tech industry is just different in that it evolves so much faster than other industries. Degree or not, you need to be constantly learning to keep up. I'm surprised that anyone with a related degree wouldn't know this
Medical, engineering, and finance will always require degrees, but it is becoming less and less of a requirement.
By law, if you work in medicine, you must have a certain degree or cert.
If anything, medicine is increasing their requirements. Nursing is an excellent example; most states are requiring nurse practitioners to have a Doctoral level degree to match the education of the other team members that make similar decisions. ADN in nursing is falling out of favor as the only training one has. BS in pharmacy programs were phased out in 2000.
I'm not sure how it's becoming less of a requirement when many medical jobs are requiring masters degrees now vs a bachelors.
If a degree is pointless why do so many employers list a degree as part of the job requirements? A degree is important if you want to work in a white collar job. The problem is that the ROI of a degree is being crushed. The amount of people that have a degree skyrocketed, diluting its value. In addition, the cost of higher education is astronomical now. All of this results in making it a much poorer investment today than it was 50 years ago. A degree can still be valuable but you have get one that lands you into a lucrative field otherwise you might not get a good return on investment.
Recently, assumptions based on having a degree despite job history showing or stating I’m experienced in what was assumed when they hired me.
When I was hiring I would prefer someone with experience over someone with a degree. The position was for maintenance at a plant though. I’ve also helped hire supervisors and I lean towards work experience within the company rather than a degree. My current job needs a degree IMO. There’s a lot of technical stuff and other personal skills that college taught me.
I saw this 12 years ago so i never went. I had a tougher road than many of my peers but i found my way into a decent salary eventually
From where I sit in the engineering ranks, it’s what you know and what you DO with it that theres a growing split. I am seeing a TON of engineers both new grads and mid career who know fucking nothing useful in their discipline and have no practical experience. Like they start useless and stay useless. Combine that with the huge waves of abruptly retiring boomers who have done zero knowledge turnover after hoarding their knowledge and responsibility for decades, it’s become a lot harder TO learn the practical from someone who knows. It’s really bizarre. We have almost like a intellectual/skill recession in our industry. So, back to degrees, you must have the degree to get in the door as an engineer, but WHAT you know specifically in practical real-world experience (which due to the aforementioned dynamics you must have drive and initiative to seek out) , and your political people skills to tolerate/navigate all the stupidity and chaos, those are the ones rapidly rising to the top in all ways. Anyway that is just what came to mind when I read your question.
I would say the degree is valuable in certain fields. There are jobs that require a 4 year degree where I work. My employer will also start you at a higher wage if you got over a 3.0 in college. This is not true for every job though.
This is always a fun topic. Broadly the answer is yes absolutely worth doing a degree. Now the core reason is simply the fact we have moved to a knowledge economy. The broad range of skills gained from doing a degree means you are capable of completing modern jobs. Does this mean we are fairly compensated, absolutely not... Beyond the economic need for skilled workers, the degree gives you a great experience, you engage with a topic that interests you to a high level, and you learn lifelong learning skills. The lifelong learning has been an excellent skill. I ended up doing a undergrad degree in politics, a masters in economy, and an interdisciplinary PhD focusing on computer mediated communication of science. After all that I taught myself IT and ended up in a well paid DevOps job. If your looking for degree = high pay then like many ideas about the workplace it is very much a dead idea (just like company loyalty or working your way up a company). That said student loans has seriously been a headache. I left my undergrad with a debt of 21k... my current debt is 21k after a decade... at least the UK student loan system is pay of 9% of salary after a threshold is passed. The interest rate is also locked to a low % but we have seen that spike with inflation sky rocketing. When I finished my degree we were in the 2008 financial crisis and you were lucky to get a retail job or a call centre job. The economy has not been great since which has helped the feeling that degrees are worthless. So I can sympathise with people feeling that way.
I have a bullshit degree and checking off the box of whether or not you have a Bachelor’s can immediately push your application through or send it into the abyss.
Stem fields benefit from having a degree. If your degree is projected to earn you less per year than it costs to get, after 3-5 years of experience, don't get it.
Not pointless in finance
The value of the degree is still net-positive even though the social rarity of a person with a particular degree has gone down significantly. The key takeaway is to only get a particular degree/school/etc IF you can afford it. Don't put your education cost on your future self and hope that you'll one day pay it off. Make a financial plan BEFORE going for the degree.
It depends. I don’t have a four year and when I was looking for a “big girl job” there were a lot of large corporations that wouldn’t even look at me. I ended up landing a position at a smaller company with a couple hundred employees. I had to take a very low paying job, which was fine, and work my way up. I didn’t have a ton of experience but (and I’m not trying to toot my own horn) I’m a really hard working and I’m a pretty smart person. It’s been over 3 years and it’s been a great ride so far.
Depends on what you plan to do with your life. People would say my psych degree is pointless bc you don’t make much money with it and you usually fill high stress case manager roles. I got it bc I’m pursuing grad school and need a masters to get the license I want.
You do know you can still apply to thr position that say 2 years of experience and eventually find one that will give you a job right?
It's supply and demand. Since more people are getting degrees, it doesn't mean the demand for degree holders go up. So now that more people have degrees they are worth less than before, obviously not all degrees are the same. The problem is that people are dumb and think this means "you need a masters now" Job interviews should be more about demonstrating skills, rather than showing up and pitching yourself and hiding behind credentials.
Degree has never been useful, it's your standing against competitions. Let's say good jobs go to top 10% of people, when only 10% of people get degrees, degree will signify them as good candidates for good jobs. When everyone has a degree, it no longer signifies such and lose its value. However degrees from top 10% of institutions are still useful, and good jobs still go to them. When everyone has a degree, get better degrees to stand out from the competition.
Economically useful for certified/licensed careers and if you can "spin" it towards something quasi-related, but back it up with skills (which were probably acquired outside the degree program). That's pretty much it these days. For accounting, consider taking some quick certification programs on Coursera or LinkedIn Learning etc. that wasn't on your degree program you could apply during a job interview (probably some niche field in finance, business management, or ML/analytics) but don't let taking the class stall you from applying to jobs.
Depends. I dare say every job I apply to either having a degree is required or it has helped me immensely in standing out. Getting your first job or a job when you don’t have much experience is always frustrating and hellish because of the paradox of everyone wanting experience. My suggestion? Apply anyway. The worst they can do is reject your application. I don’t think degrees are worthless, but what I do see is a lot of people with bachelors degrees ending up working jobs that have no relation to the degree. I work in a law office (as support staff not an attorney ) and one of my coworkers has a bachelor’s in history. I have my bachelor’s in political science. A bachelor’s in politics science is kinda extremely useless unless you’re doing it to go to law school and to look good for that. I think we have an issue of people getting degrees in things that don’t have a clear path to related jobs, but I still think college degrees help a lot. Wishing you best of luck. I was so frustrated and angry and it really affected my mental health until I got my first entry level job in my field. The first job to get experience you need truly is the hardest to get hired for.
Depends on the career path. Some obviously need degrees with no getting around it. It’s certainly possible to make a good living without one through trades, starting your own business, or even working your way up over time. The unfortunate part is that many employers have put a degree requirement on jobs that don’t really need it barring people without one. It can make job hunting pretty hard with a degree, but the one you land because of it now may not actually pay enough to make it a worthwhile investment. So in general, I’d say for the most part, yes you need one. But it’s not the ticket to upper middle class that we were lead to believe. You may get a job that requires a degree that barely pays enough to cover the loan payments.
A degree is a piece of paper. It means you can pass a test. If you can't convert what you learned to pass the test into every day life. It's worthless.
It really depends on the field and what you’re trying to do with your degree. Some people just get a degree to have a degree and don’t really think through what they want to do with said degree.
It’s worse, you need more than a bachelors. Masters, postgraduate, doctorates, etc. Then you need internships, personal connections. The pickings are slim, and everything is more competitive.
Idk my wife has 2 degrees and her job keeps pressuring her to go back and get her masters. It would net us another 75k in debt and they are willing to give her a dollar raise once she gets it. Degrees are looking kind of like a scam from someone (me) who doesn't have one. But if you don't (like me) you get shoe horned into manual labor and that kind of sucks too.
Google "average salary by education level" and report back.
Mostly. I know someone with two master’s, two certifications, loads of experience and $125k of debt, can’t turn a screwdriver or use a drill, and can’t even get a job waiting tables
Well degrees are great if you go for electrician, dental hygiene, nursing. Etc just go to a technical college way better!
Even if all your degree does is qualify you for an office job, you have to consider the lifestyle benefits that come along. Even if some white collar work isn’t paying a premium to more blue collar work, if the difference is marginal most would pick the office work. It’s one thing when you’re young, but as you hit your 40s and 50s more active/physical work will take its tool. Personally I’d go office job, just so I can have more energy after work for kids/household stuff/leisure etc. There’s a lot of trade offs to balance and nuances to the whole thing. No one size fits all.
My degree as a symbol or piece of paper has never landed me a job, however, the skills I learned in college are useful every single day and are the reason I have a career in the field I studied.
I wouldn’t consider myself successful in my own way if I didn’t have a college degree. It’s about having the right college degree. I mean you can graduate with a degree in literature, French, liberal arts and the like, but don’t expect having these degrees will give you a high-paying salary compared to the ones who graduated majoring in STEM, medical or business/finance. The real problem is “following your dreams” isn’t all that promising anymore. There’s nothing wrong doing it if it is within the realm of reality. I mean what career pays top dollar for a degree in literature nowadays? Unless you become lucky like JK Rowling or George R R Martin, there’s nothing really below that level of success that can give you a decent career out of it apart from being a professor. The worst part, “following your dreams” by going to that expensive university to give you fancy bragging rights with a super fat student loan for a degree that doesn’t equate to a nice career. This is one of the paths that will have you stuck being a barista.
One of the biggest problems with college is how anti social students are. Networking is really important. And your account professor is a fantastic networking hub for accounting careers. Quality professors often have one foot in academia and the other foot in the business world and can easily be a bridge for ambitious students to cross from education to a career. It’s not that college is pointless, but that college is two-fold. You get the diploma to prove competency. And you have the institutions to provide networking paths. The people who just get degrees without networking are shooting themselves in the foot. —- Side note, companies often do years of experience as a barrier to reduce hundreds or thousands of applicants. Highly competitive jobs need ways to cull swarms of applicants. Having networks can skip that process sometimes.
When I got my first degree, I just did prerequisites for grad school only. My job outside of school wasn't related, I barely volunteered, and as soon as I was done with class I rushed off campus to fart around and play video games or whatever. I did the bare minimum that was required to pass, and while it got me a degree I missed out on the real value of college. My second degree, I majored in nursing, I networked heavily with faculty and local employers who stopped by to see us. I joined clubs, volunteered, went for straight A's, and worked a job to build my fundamental nursing skills while in school. As a result, when I graduated I had a robust network of people I could reach out to if needed, hiring managers trying to recruit me, and a TON of opportunity ahead of me. I think the idea of "it's not the grades you make, it's the hands you shake" isn't 100% accurate, it's more like both are important as well as strategically taking opportunities available to you.
A degree is a screener for most companies. You need one to even be considered for an interview.
supply and demand. cost of the degeree vs how much money you can make in your life time earnings also there shouldn't just be one main route of education. the priority of shoveling as many people through college in the last 40 years was a mistake. we should have kept the primary 4 avenues for post secondary education 1.) university 2.) vocational schools 3.) apprenticeship 4.) company job training programs
Out of curiosity, when did you graduate from college? I am also an accountant. I graduated college in 2011, and the economy was still rebounding from the "great recession," so jobs were opening up, but I was competing with people who had been laid off, had plenty of experience, and were taking whatever they could get. I eventually got my foot in the door, but it took a while to get there. I am a manager now and make very good money. You can use an accounting degree for literally anything in business as well.
Unfortunately a lot of companies still gatekeep the best positions behind degrees. I’ve seen a lot of qualified people get turned down for roles because they didn’t have the schooling.
My job flat out requires a graduate level degree (masters or PhD - you get paid more if you have the PhD). I absolutely love my job and this line of work is why I pursued my degrees. I just think that students should have a real tangible reason for getting a degree. I never view having spent time learning new things as time wasted. Learning is going to have a positive effect. It's up to the student to determine if that effect is worth it though.
There are very few fields that should be supported by a degree, everything else is a scam.
The type of degree is increasing in significance. Edit: conditional for those looking to leverage their degree for a well paying job. Eg my little bro works at a museum and is happy as a clam. He knew going into his field, he was pursuing happiness rather than money.
A degree isn't a substitute for intelligence. One must come with the other, but the other can stand on its own.