3 thoughts on this:
1) The timing of these extra details confirming Horst didn't want Griffin or Rivers as coach is awfully beneficial to Horst for distancing himself from the outcome of this team.
2) To say Horst spent "years of bolstering the roster around Giannis, the Bucks now have the second-oldest team in the league" but then to say Horst didn't want Rivers because he "has historically given playing time to declining veterans over deserving young talent" is rather disingenuous since Horst filled the roster with vets.
3) Despite this, it's probably accurate anyway, and the Bucks are in a rough spot asset-wise.
The worst part to me is that Horst didn't want Rivers but was forced into it by ownership - I can live with the rest but I'm not sure what anyone expects Horst to do if he's effectively been neutered by Haslam.
And I'll say it now, fuck Haslam because if Milwaukee ever loses the Bucks it's going to be him directly behind it - if anyone thinks he actually gives af about anything Milwaukee, I've got some prime real estate available in FL right on the water you'd be interested in.
I don't think the Bucks leave anytime soon. The team has become wildly popular and can survive off that for awhile. From a generational prospective, I'd argue that for the under 40 crowd in the Milwaukee area the Bucks are the most popular team not named the Packers.
Sure, but we know there will be a harsh hangover once this run finally does end (hopefully not for a few more years) when they won’t have any 1st rounders to build back up. It could be a rough second half of the decade and we’ll see how the fans support the Bucks then.
And Seattle loved the Sonics. All it takes is one owner determined to move the team.
The Bucks won’t go anywhere for the time being with the new stadium and the league making noise about expansion first, but there’s no guarantee. “The under 40 crowd” in the leagues smallest media market who happen to be interested in the team while they’re in the best stretch in 50 years is not as impressive of a selling point as it sounds.
Horst’s questionable personnel decisions fall on him, not ownership. He was lucky in the sense Giannis’s talent over shadowed them. He built an old roster. Jae, Serge, Cam, Pat, Malik (?), trading almost every draft choice. Jrue for Dame is still TBD. Jrue is doing in Boston what he did here. Dame is still great, but those legs get tired, and his shots suffer. Khris can’t play a season on worn out legs. Bobby has schizophrenic play. Some days phenomenal, to those days he can’t make multiple 3 footers-typically when it matters. Throwing a punch was inexcusable. His defense is not good. That ain’t ownership. Mike and Adrian and Doc’s cupboard was getting old and tired. Doc got more out of it last couple/few games than even thought possible. Playing Jackson and AJ more may have helped, but it wasn’t going to win more this year. Horst rode Giannis. He’s no GM god.
Jrue is definitely on the decline so it was a good move. He doesn’t look as good defensively but Bostons other players help cover that up. His offense in the playoffs has been just as bad if not worse than ever.
And the bucks need him to do a lot more than he does in Boston. With khris being constantly injured he'd have to be #2 scorer on this team (if they didn't do dame trade) and we've seen how that's gone. I think it made sense to go after dame as a 1a option next to giannis and not put as much pressure on khris to be healthy and produce at elite level which is unrealistic at his age.
Nah. Ownership didn't let Horst keep Brogdan. Even worse, ownership didn't let him sign PJ Tucker when we clearly needed him to run it back.
I'm not saying Horst is perfect but don't ignore ownership's meddling either, unless you're just an ownership apologist and if so, let's just agree to disagree because we'll never see eye-to-eye on this.
Brogdan is a good basketball player but he doesn't have that extra gear. Sure he'll put up decent numbers but losing him (and PJ) isn't the difference.
We clearly needed PJ in the Boston series -- do you not remember how undersized we were, especially without Middleton?? Not signing him was a terrible move, we were well-positioned to run it back with the '21 squad but ownership wouldn't pony up; meanwhile, PJ goes onto to have his last actually good season playing for Miami.
As for Brogdan, I don't know why you wouldn't say he didn't have an extra gear when he was clearly the best player besides Giannis in 2019 against Toronto after he came back from injury - not saying keeping him would have led to a chip but in hindsight it was a very shitty move imo.
Either way, larger point is people keep shitting Horst for actions he had no control over and while I can appreciate some of our fans doing damage control over KOC's reporting today, painting Horst like he was some kind of terrible GM is laughable - dude wasn't executive of the year with us for no reason lmao
Not surprised, comment was originally upvoted but all the ownership simps always come out en force later on. Always been that way tho, when I first joined the sub everyone was blaming Horst for Brogdan and when I posted the Lasry article where he told J-S it was his solely decision to trade him, I would still get downvoted lmao
Of course, on a larger level that's reddit as a whole - narrative over facts, always lmao
I'm pro Horst and yeah, too many cooks spoil the soup. I'd like to see the Bucks move forward in the playoffs but I also hope we keep Horst around and he finds us a big with similar qualities to Giannis.
Yeah this is Horst wanting to leave not being forced out. It’s clear the Bucks are in a tough spot between the age of the roster, lack of assets, and maxed out payroll. Not to mention being saddled with Doc for at least another couple of seasons.
Same but honestly now I'm just worried about Giannis even staying here...might be reading way too much into it but last game with Dame sitting nowhere near Giannis or the team was pretty weird to see and if there's one thing we all know, Dame's not the one stirring any drinks in the Bucks organization
They mentioned on the broadcast Dame was in the back due to his injury and not being able to move well/risk aggravating it worse while in the healing process.
[Wrong](https://www.nba.com/news/malcolm-brogdon-pacers-bucks-stayed)
Stop believing all the pro-ownership homer BS you read on here - will free your mind
He literally said he didn’t want to stay unless he was valued the same as the pacers valued him. His usage his first season on Indy was equal to Khris’ usage in Milwaukee. He never could have been the player he was for them, here.
He also demanded to play PG at the time, and we had a faster and better one that we had also just paid.
Didn’t think we valued him, wanted to play a position we didn’t see view him as, and wanted to start when we (and every team that has kept him healthy since) has seen him as a sixth man.
Just stop already - [it was all Lasry](https://twitter.com/eric_nehm/status/1180192630422028289/photo/2)
And also would appreciate if you'd stop stalking my comments - you're clearly 100% biased in favor of the hedge fund billionaires neutering our GM to the point shit like what happened today gets leaked to the media...and if you think it's good for the team we're seeing shit like this I hope you're never in a position of authority ever, anywhere
e: downvote in less than a minute - could gaf about reddit points but clearly ownership troll shills out large and in charge lmao
I’m not stalking your comments, I am just commenting on things on this thread, mostly where I disagree.
I certainly don’t find myself on the side of billionaires on a regular basis, but believing the sour grapes of a GM who wants to leave because he’s got no bullets left to fire is a strange place to convince yourself you are sticking it to the hedge fund crowd.
It seems we aren’t seeing this the same way, but I’m not meaning to follow you around.
I'm with you completely...
It just came to me... We send Horst and Doc to the Pistons for draft picks or some players. Problem solved! "It's almost too easy." :)
No need to sugar coat it. They’re our only assets on the oldest roster in the league. Dame’s gonna be 34 next year and Giannis 30. Gotta face the music at some point and hopefully it’s before the injuries kill their value.
Last time the bucks had someone as good as Giannis was 50 years ago. It might be 50 more years before it happens again, so maybe let's not get rid of him any earlier than he wants to leave
imo
We can have different opinions. I’m concerned that new ownership has hamstrung our GM so it’s hard to say what our best option is.
If Horst is making the decisions, then I trust him to make the right call. If Haslem is pulling the strings then we’re fucked either way.
It's not fun to talk about, but at some point this run is effectively over unless we get insanely lucky and land a star without a premium pick, someone drinks from the fountain of youth, or one of the young guys currently on the roster takes a huge leap. I think we have one more year, _maybe_ two where we can even be considered serious contenders.
We have no money for big signings in FA and no assets to reliably land talent through the draft. We can't even bottom out because every pick after next year is either unprotected or a swap with NO and then Portland until like 2031, including most of our seconds. We can either waste the tail end of GA's career or send him somewhere he can compete and kick start the rebuild with a king's ransom of picks and young players.
>To say Horst spent "years of bolstering the roster around Giannis, the Bucks now have the second-oldest team in the league"
Not to mention the lack of draft picks for years to come.
The good new is we have Giannis and Dame under contract for 3 years. Many of the vets won't be back next year and Brook is on an expiring. Giannis + Dame + Khris + the young Bucks is a solid foundation, plus we have our 1st and Blazers 2nd this year. We can make some moves but we're gonna probably have to part ways with Brook and/or Bobby.
brook helped bring us to contention in 2018 with bud and was our first real center who didn’t suck ass and spread the floor perfectly for giannis and then on was anchoring the defense inside with giannis. massive key to what we had to this point but he’s getting older and slower its sad
Fans like this can fuck off. Dudes pouring his fucking heart out and nearly single handedly carried us to a win with 4 players on the court with a crippled Dame. If we were able to do a basic function of a rebound we win. I get it with his injury history but at this point we ain't getting anything for him in return due to it. So there's no reason to just cut him loose cause when he is healthy he's great. Just so rare now but of the big 3 he's the only still standing when it matters most so
Yup and even tho this article confirms what many of us like me always thought what went down in the coach search, I still hate it.
Should add I'm also now absolutely believing the rumor that Giannis didn't want Nurse solely because of what Siakam and OG told him - there's a reason why players should never be prioritized over GMs and this season proves it, even if it's an all time great like Giannis.
e: grammar
I didn't even really want Nurse all that much and think he's a bit overrated, but it's hardcore cope to pretend that hiring him wouldn't be vastly preferable to what we've gotten ourselves into now. AG was a disaster, which we stupidly followed by signing Doc to a $40 million contract. If Horst leaves, that opens the door to Doc being given more personnel control since the ownership group clearly was enamored with him. Give me Nick Nurse and his annoying assholery over all this BS in a heartbeat.
Can we chill on the whole nurse would solve all our issues. Last time I checked, his team is also down 3-1 in the finals. They lost Embiid and their record fell just as quickly. Doc has his issues but rn he’s on the same level as nurse for me.
100%, and Giannis signed his extension *after* the coaching hire was made.
Imagine this year with Giannis and Dame not coming together perfectly, and add in the will-he-won’t-he extension talks hanging over our heads all fucking season.
Thank you lol this is all going to be leaked stuff phrased how ppl leaking it want.
It wasn’t binary on the coaching hires like that makes it out to be…
Horst is likely on the way out and, *if* this article is true, this is him protecting himself. However, a lot of the stuff in that article is full of shit. If Horst was against Doc because he mostly played vets, then why did he continuously trade away draft capital and give up players like Donte for fucking Serge Ibaka?
It's best for both sides to move on.
Bullshit. He could have drafted better, not traded for Serge or Crowder, found a way to keep Donte, he fucked up the Connaghton contract. He could have made a trade for an actual useful piece. There’s a lot he could have done
I thought Griff was a safe risk but am glad we didn't hire Nurse. Who is to say if we hired Atkinson, or even a Fernandez or \*Chris Quinn would things have been "better".
edit\*
You're talking about Quin Snyder. They're talking about Chris Quinn.
To be clear though, both would have been great options and better than the usual tired Doc, Atkinson, JVG, MDA etc memes
Right, I forgot about Snyder... I wanted someone from Spo's camp though. I think there is enough talent between Dame and Giannis to carry any coach and team to glory.
Nah, there's too many problems with the roster for many reasons. The best teams have multiple rotations with few holes and lots of versatility. This team doesn't. And Dame is very clearly not the same as before
Hiring a better coach definitely would've helped, though
Lmao yeah my bad I thought I read quinn snyder that's on me
Edit: Oh it was edited and originally just said quinn I'll call it a misunderstanding and rescind my admition of fault lol
The bad news, the ownership that didn’t like Gianni’s’ pick, or Horsts pick, are still the owners. They won’t want to fire Doc because he is their pick. Now the make Horst fall on the sword, and can put in a GM that does their bidding.
Shit show in Milwaukee
That’s great, Horsts picks were a guy that had one good playoff run and a bunch of mediocre seasons that the best player in team history didn’t want, and a guy who literally runs the same system we are still paying Bud not to run anymore.
fuck!! please get someone who can draft and won’t trade for only vets. thankful for horst but the man couldn’t draft worth dick and the jae trade was really bad or the donte trade. really acting like Giannis came in the office and held people hostage for Griff when its the gm’s job to make those decisions.
Horst vindicated. Obviously he could of made better moves around the edges but the HC debacle this year was the most debilitating thing to the team and he was on the right side of it and essentially screwed by ownership and Giannis.
Giannis you are a great player, but you aren’t a GM.
Vindicated by leaking that it's everyone's fault but his own? Everyone's fault but the person who's job it is to build the team? Folks that are skilled at passing the blame will always find themselves in situations where passing the blame is important (to them).
Horst vindicated based on what? Because of Nick Nurse? LMFAOOOOO Horst did nothing but spend time adding unathletic and old players to the team in the last 4 deadlines. Him not moving guys like Pat while also adding washed players like Jae, Torrey Craig, Gallo, Ingles, DJ Augustine, etc to rosters that were trying to win a championship is much worse then one stupid coaching decision.
It's honestly incredible that anybody would defend Horst in this situation. We've been making moves like this before Bud was gone and Halsam came in. Horst has been the one constant in that front office making these moves.
It's more on ownership and the team for giving Giannis that power. There's nothing wrong with taking his input but at the end of day you gotta make the best decision for the team. Not just put it on him. Giannis isn't the one actually hiring anyone.
Are we all just kind of ignoring the fact that Griffin made it to the finalists?
Like sometimes the way people talk about this makes me think they think Horst did his own search from scratch and Giannis was out there putting interviews together separately. Horst had a shortlist that included Adrian Griffin, Horst clearly believed in Adrian Griffin as well - otherwise he isn't on the shortlist. If Horst went into the last stage with exactly one head coach he liked, but put three names out there for Giannis and Khris to speak to and ask about, then he's a fucking idiot and I don't think he's a fucking idiot.
Also, just to agree with you, if you are asking a player for input and making your decision *solely* on that input then you're not doing your job as a GM.
Yeah but the 3 finalist narrative was also put out to the media by ownership, right? Not saying it isn't true but unless confirmed by Horst himself, everything after today now seems sus af about whatever truly happened last off season.
I don't understand what you think happened if you don't think the Bucks FO, like every single front office with every single off-season coaching search, narrowed a long list to a shorter one. And why would Horst ever call his own press conference to detail the coaching search?
If you don't think there were finalists, but do think Giannis wanted Adrian Griffin, how do you think Giannis got to that view? Was he doing his own coaching search?
That's not what I said tho, my point is the way things have been portrayed up until now were clearly misleading and regardless of Horst's pressers if you don't think he's carrying water for ownership over all else (including telling us the exact truth), I don't know what to tell you.
That is what you said though, you suggested that the information that there were three finalists (reported by numerous news breakers) was not true. So why do you think this coaching search was done completely differently to every other coaching search, and why do you think Giannis ended up liking Adrian Griffin?
Just because an exec obviously presents things in a way that aren't hostile to the ownership doesn't mean everything that has happened has been a lie good grief.
> and why do you think Giannis ended up liking Adrian Griffin?
You didn't hear about Siakam and OG's role?
> doesn't mean everything that has happened has been a lie good grief
Where did I say everything was a lie? Never said any absolutes like that, nor would I ever and again, what I'm saying is not to take everything Bucks FO/ownership says as gospel either and this news today certainly affirms that we shouldn't. Feel free to disagree but please don't completely misinterpret and try and re-frame the argument I'm actually making in doing so.
How did Giannis ever know who Adrian Griffin was *unless he was a finalist for the hire*?
If you genuinely don't believe such an obvious thing such as 'Jon Horst had a list of candidates and then narrowed that down to a shorter list of candidates for the last stage of the search' then I don't know what you could possibly *actually* think is true.
Again, show me where I ever argued exactly that? All I said is not to take that *or any* report as gospel either as we now know that there was *clearly* more going on behind the scenes than what's been portrayed to date. Not sure why you seem so hellbent on ignoring that perspective after I've explained it multiple times while also taking it so personally tbh.
e: actually, I see your other [post](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cg50cr/oconnor_league_sources_tell_me_theres_a_real/l1tublq/) on r/nba and it's safe to say we'll never see eye-to-eye on this
I really don't think it's that deep. They just let go of their long time coach who failed to adapt (aka McCarthy) and likely wanted someone long term to build and grow with Giannis. They had the proven candidate in Nurse, the unexperienced up and coming candidate in Griffin (like Lafluer he actually didn't have that great of a resume other than who he worked with) and honestly forgot the 3rd. But is that really that odd they tried Griffin? Giannis liked Griffin, they're looking to help revitalize their team so they took a risk. It failed, it happens. I don't think it's some weird, deep conspiracy kinda thing. Just made the wrong choice. Just could be questions about how he got that far if he was that bad to fire as a top seed in the East mid-season. Must be an insane interviewer or it's incompetence.
Let's also be fair, Nurse isn't exactly doing so hot either. And he's got his top 2 players actually playing and they're about to lose the exact same way the Bucks are but we're down our top 2.
> But is that really that odd they tried Griffin?
Considering how many times Griff has been interviewed over the past decade without getting hired ([many times](https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nba/bucks/2023/09/28/adrian-griffin-brings-authentic-positive-command-to-milwaukee-bucks-head-coaching-job/70911227007/) including with LAL in 2022 when Ham beat him out), yeah, it *absolutely is an outlier that we hired him* - I don't know where this narrative came in that Griff wasn't a tried commodity, he's been an assistant coach in the NBA for more than a decade who's applied for many head coaching jobs and we're the only team that took a chance despite our own GM not being on board; surely you can see what that's problematic af??
As for Nurse, yeah, I do think we should have hired him over Griff. But that said, I've also always argued we should have let Griff at least coach the entire year because we not only should we own the mistake, but also not rush into hiring his replacement - now that we know Horst wasn't on board with hiring Doc, it really seems like that would have been a better path forward because Doc would have still been available to interview this off season. But now? Ownership forced Horst's hand and we're stuck with Doc for the next 2 seasons at the least (or more if Giannis/Dame ask out this off season).
Anyway, I can totally appreciate your perspective but I hope you can agree ownership meddling like this is never a good thing.
If you have a player like Giannis, you HAVE to give him that sort of control over the franchise. Thanasis doesn't belong on an NBA roster, but he gets paid over $2M/year because his brother is Giannis and for literally no other reason.
You can absolutely and should give them say in certain matters. But if Griffin was that horrible of a candidate or you truly believe in another you have to make that call and trust it. Horst gave them 3 to talk to, Griffin had made it that far, and hindsight it's not like Nurse actually is doing well. He's about to lose the exact same way the Bucks are but his stars are playing. Just the putting all the blame on giannis or saying he hired him is beyond stupid.
Horst vindicated because a guy who can't even look at which of our players have actually been getting playing time this post season printed a leak from Horst?
Vindicated? Did Giannis build the roster of Methuselahs?
The “sources” back then were that Horst wanted Doc. Now the “sources” say Horst wanted another HC but the owners wanted Doc.
Players should never have power over roster making decisions. 99% of the time they're going to want to play with their besties regardless of whether they're trash or not. And most of the time they are
As a fan without any say in the decision making, almost can't help but laugh at this point. We had 2021, our one championship for every 50 years I guess. Fuck it, it was much less stressful being a fan in the Mike Redd/Andrew Bogut and T.J. Ford/Desmond Mason being lob city light era's
This all puta a bad taste in my mouth about Horst. its kinda his fault we had all these coaching changes that fucked us a bit and also his fault that we have a bunch of old injury prone vets. But okay see ya pal ✌️
So many delusional and emotional fans in here. Horst wasn't perfect, but especially in the last half decade, he tried to make the best out of everything.
Got Brook Lopez for the freeskis when the Lakers ditched him, got us jrue, immediately turned into a chip, flipped jrue for dame when we needed guard offense, a move no one saw coming, all the while doing his best to cater to his franchise player (which may have been the tipping point for us).
Frankly, if the reports are true, Giannis gotta hold this one. I would understand this if Horst was completely incompetent at his job, but the reality is that Horst was making the best with what he could and it came up big for us. Sometimes players just got to play and trust in their front office who has shown you they can make plays.
Proof positive that you should never just blindly listen to players no matter who they are.
If you get to the point where the star player doesn't have enough faith in the GM to do their jobs and make the moves that are in the best interest of the team then you should find a new GM.
Letting the player run things is among the worst things you can do.
Summary:
Horst wants Nick
Giannis wants Griffin
Griffin got sacked
Horst wants Kenny Atkinson
Giannis wants Doc
Horst see his insights and power dwindling
Horst was former staff of Detroit and is a Detroit local
Team filled with vets. Fresh draft players find it hard to play regular in Bucks culture. I would say bad growth culture.
My add: Giannis nepotism caused the team 1 extra spot
Giannis is my favorite player in any sport of all time, but i think he fucked us here. Not hiring nurse was such a massive mistake. Giannis plays the humble card but there have been several times this year where he’s shown his big ego and stubbornness (ballgate, not sitting out when partially injured, choosing Griffin) and it really messed up the team.
We need an alpha to come in and coach him up in more ways than one, if we want to win more shots at a title and less first round exits.
Embiid in the playoffs drops off hard (mentally soft and his foul baiting doesn’t work) but the sixers have a far less talented roster than the bucks. Nurse is absolutely a better coach than griffin and doc.
The bucks have far better….you for real? Put the regular season bucks to play as many games as the sixers did w/o the effort and the mentality that Giannis brings and see what happens. Our players were abysmal regular season and they are bad now except the youngs and Kris/Dame.
Giannis Dame Khris (when healthy) is like the best rated trio, vs embiid (playoff choker) and Maxey (he rules) and a below average supporting cast on the sixers. The bucks are v top heavy but still a far more talented playoff starting core. Nurse would have us playing much better and more consistent
I thought it was Docs fault that Sixers sucked last year and without him they would have won it all. Now with Nurse is Embiids? I’m confused.
Because Giannis carries worlds doesn’t make Nurse a good choice.
Embiid is a loser. Giannis is a winner but needs to improve a few things to get to the mountain top again. He needs an alpha coach or teammate to help overcome his stubbornness, which is like his only big flaw. Nurse would have possibly been that person — clearly griffin and doc aren’t it. I’m not a doc hater but he’s just an average coach at best.
Nurse wasn’t available. ESPN had reported at the time of the Griffin hire that Nurse was finalizing contract details with PHI while doing his first interview with the Bucks. We were contract leverage.
No, Nurse wasn't available only from the moment it was leaked Giannis didn't want him - it was only at that moment he (wisely) immediately retracted himself from consideration.
Bye, bye Jon Horst. One of the most clueless and lazy GM in the league. He'd rather point fingers and place the blame on others instead of taking ownership of the mess that he caused. He surrounded Giannis with slow, old, and unathletic players, and wants to point fingers at others even though he's the main architect behind this mess to begin with. If he really cared about Giannis' input he would've surrounded him with the kind of players Giannis likes. Even I know the kind of players Giannis likes based on his interviews and I don't work in the Bucks front office. Don't let the door hit you on your way out. Hope he takes Doc along with him to that job he has lined up in Detroit. I don't want to see both of them here next year. I don't care if Haslem has to pay four coaches as long as Doc is gone from this team. They better not make him the GM.
Bro he made plays to get the core together, adjusted to get Jrue, took feedback from org about doing something, then got Dame (surprised everyone). That’s legit. What isn’t legit is the AG hire
He’s constructed a roster where Pat Connaughton receives minutes (and would if they were fully healthy) on a 3 year 9 million a year contract. Jae Crowder for 5 second rounders. His two cardinal sins in a nutshell
>One of the most clueless and lazy GM in the league.
You *conveniently* left out the detail that he brought together the roster that WON THE BUCKS THEIR FIRST CHAMPIONSHIP IN OVER 50-YEARS.
C'mon, dude -- this is just revisionist, prisoner of the moment crap. Horst has made some questionable moves that didn't amount to much (the Donte for Ibaka trade still stings), but to insist he's the sole reason why the Bucks are in this predicament is ironically *clueless* and *lazy*.
I agree that he did a good job of assembling our championship roster, but since then he's failed to adjust. Teams only get older and always trading draft capital and assets away for washed up bench players over 30 (making us even older) was an indictment on his run as GM.
He was always more focused on being competitive for the next season, rather than making the right moves to ensure we are competitive with Giannis for years to come, and it caught up with him. The fact Giannis had to play so much towards the end of the season because the rest of the team couldn't keep up with younger teams is all that needs to be mentioned.
I think a prevailing inclination for Horst to seek out savvy vets for the roster to be competitive in the post-season wasn't necessarily misplaced, but the issue being that he targeted and eventually acquired vets whose level of play were well behind them with the only exception being PJ Tucker. This compounds the roster issues/holes because Horst used draft capital to get these vets and effectively hamstrung the Bucks' ability to acquire younger, upside players in the draft.
I feel the same way towards Horst as I do Bobby. I appreciate what he did for our championship run, but I’m ready to move on. Horst doesn’t value young players and picks enough, and I don’t want him dealing away all of the rest of our chances at getting younger just for washed vets.
I rather would’ve had someone else over Nurse, but the closer it got to the end, I was really pulling for him. I understand the desire to appease Giannis, but Giannis isn’t LeGM. We’ve seen his previous All-Star game line up selections and they weren’t very good. Although freakishly athletically gifted and hard working, his basketball IQ is quite average, and I wouldn’t have allowed him to have that much influence on picking the head coach.
Doc was one I never would’ve selected, but we’re stuck with him now, and I’m not sure who else we could’ve gone with. Could we really have selected Atkinson like that mid season? Seems odd…
Look, I love Giannis, but i’m not going to sit here and be delusional about a part of his game he clearly needs to improve on. Basketball IQ is one of his biggest short comings. The countless offensive fouls, driving through the lane out of control, not spamming pick and rolls to get open, lack of development of a post game, and 10-second FT violations… All of those things relate to his less than ideal basketball IQ. How? Because it shows a lack of understanding/awareness of the game around him.
Again, I love Giannis, but he’s not perfect. How many playoff games have we watched over the years where critical possessions end up in his hands and a charge is drawn? How many 10 second violations will it take for him to speed up his routine?
Idk how this is incorrect. Being a 2x MVP doesn't necessarily mean you have top tier basketball IQ. It's definitely one of Giannis shortcomings and if you actually watched the game (of basketball), it would be noticable.
He easily falls into traps whether it be barreling into walls and racking up offensive fouls, taking I'll advised shots (especially getting baited into shooting 3s) and can become pretty hot headed at times.
Doesn't mean he isn't a top 20 player all time potentially, just that he has his flaws like any other great.
Also, it's COULDN'T care less. By your semantics, it means you do care.
We could have had Griff or Prunty finish the season and get him lined up. You never know, Warriors might understand the guys ambitions and let him take an opportunity.
What we got was rumors they were getting Doc, then Doc showed up a week later.
Doc to become GM? Hopefully that way when we hire a new coach his current contact isn't just lighting money on fire (again).
I feel like if Horst leaves that would at least be some kind of positive to come, but who knows how Doc would be as GM.
My dude stop leaking BS Horst. You haven't made a single good move since the Jrue trade and even the moves before that one werent good.
All you have to do was look at Giannis and pair him with actual wing defenders.
You litterally lucked into Lopez signing for cheap because of a disaster in LA. You lucked out that Bobby found the love he wanted from the people in Milwaukee. What have you even done to help? The Jrue trade was the only W.
Jurys out on Dame, but its not looking promising. And you still fucking hired Doc. Stand on your fucking morals and walk away if ownership told you its Doc.
Have fun in Detroit. Without a Giannis onto carry the Geriatric Hospital you like to assemble.
Instead of whittling it down to 3 and asking Giannis. You should have whittled it down to 10 and asked Giannis to eliminate 2 or 3 and chosen from the rest yourself.
New GM coming in that gets his choice of head coach probably is best. Like let’s be honest, doc is not winning a ring again and is the most overrated coach in the nba
Can we please right the wrongs of last year and bring in Atkinson finally?
3 thoughts on this: 1) The timing of these extra details confirming Horst didn't want Griffin or Rivers as coach is awfully beneficial to Horst for distancing himself from the outcome of this team. 2) To say Horst spent "years of bolstering the roster around Giannis, the Bucks now have the second-oldest team in the league" but then to say Horst didn't want Rivers because he "has historically given playing time to declining veterans over deserving young talent" is rather disingenuous since Horst filled the roster with vets. 3) Despite this, it's probably accurate anyway, and the Bucks are in a rough spot asset-wise.
Not to say there isn't truth to it but it really does sound like a little damage control leak from Horst on the way out
The worst part to me is that Horst didn't want Rivers but was forced into it by ownership - I can live with the rest but I'm not sure what anyone expects Horst to do if he's effectively been neutered by Haslam. And I'll say it now, fuck Haslam because if Milwaukee ever loses the Bucks it's going to be him directly behind it - if anyone thinks he actually gives af about anything Milwaukee, I've got some prime real estate available in FL right on the water you'd be interested in.
I don't think the Bucks leave anytime soon. The team has become wildly popular and can survive off that for awhile. From a generational prospective, I'd argue that for the under 40 crowd in the Milwaukee area the Bucks are the most popular team not named the Packers.
Sure, but we know there will be a harsh hangover once this run finally does end (hopefully not for a few more years) when they won’t have any 1st rounders to build back up. It could be a rough second half of the decade and we’ll see how the fans support the Bucks then.
at least I can look forward to $15 Courtside seats again like giannis Rookie year when we won like 15 games.
I don't either and tbf I'm definitely dooming...that said, Haslam really doesn't inspire any positive feelings either
look what kind of trash haslem traded for in Cleveland... Haslem sucks as an owner
Haslem just sucks. I'm in Knoxville, what a shit show the whole Pilot fiasco was with the FBI raiding the company years ago
And Seattle loved the Sonics. All it takes is one owner determined to move the team. The Bucks won’t go anywhere for the time being with the new stadium and the league making noise about expansion first, but there’s no guarantee. “The under 40 crowd” in the leagues smallest media market who happen to be interested in the team while they’re in the best stretch in 50 years is not as impressive of a selling point as it sounds.
Horst’s questionable personnel decisions fall on him, not ownership. He was lucky in the sense Giannis’s talent over shadowed them. He built an old roster. Jae, Serge, Cam, Pat, Malik (?), trading almost every draft choice. Jrue for Dame is still TBD. Jrue is doing in Boston what he did here. Dame is still great, but those legs get tired, and his shots suffer. Khris can’t play a season on worn out legs. Bobby has schizophrenic play. Some days phenomenal, to those days he can’t make multiple 3 footers-typically when it matters. Throwing a punch was inexcusable. His defense is not good. That ain’t ownership. Mike and Adrian and Doc’s cupboard was getting old and tired. Doc got more out of it last couple/few games than even thought possible. Playing Jackson and AJ more may have helped, but it wasn’t going to win more this year. Horst rode Giannis. He’s no GM god.
Jrue is definitely on the decline so it was a good move. He doesn’t look as good defensively but Bostons other players help cover that up. His offense in the playoffs has been just as bad if not worse than ever.
yeah bashing horst for the dame trade is insane the roster *is* too old tho but dame younger than jrue lol
And the bucks need him to do a lot more than he does in Boston. With khris being constantly injured he'd have to be #2 scorer on this team (if they didn't do dame trade) and we've seen how that's gone. I think it made sense to go after dame as a 1a option next to giannis and not put as much pressure on khris to be healthy and produce at elite level which is unrealistic at his age.
Yep.
Nah. Ownership didn't let Horst keep Brogdan. Even worse, ownership didn't let him sign PJ Tucker when we clearly needed him to run it back. I'm not saying Horst is perfect but don't ignore ownership's meddling either, unless you're just an ownership apologist and if so, let's just agree to disagree because we'll never see eye-to-eye on this.
Brogdan is a good basketball player but he doesn't have that extra gear. Sure he'll put up decent numbers but losing him (and PJ) isn't the difference.
We clearly needed PJ in the Boston series -- do you not remember how undersized we were, especially without Middleton?? Not signing him was a terrible move, we were well-positioned to run it back with the '21 squad but ownership wouldn't pony up; meanwhile, PJ goes onto to have his last actually good season playing for Miami. As for Brogdan, I don't know why you wouldn't say he didn't have an extra gear when he was clearly the best player besides Giannis in 2019 against Toronto after he came back from injury - not saying keeping him would have led to a chip but in hindsight it was a very shitty move imo. Either way, larger point is people keep shitting Horst for actions he had no control over and while I can appreciate some of our fans doing damage control over KOC's reporting today, painting Horst like he was some kind of terrible GM is laughable - dude wasn't executive of the year with us for no reason lmao
getting downvoted but all of this is correct
Not surprised, comment was originally upvoted but all the ownership simps always come out en force later on. Always been that way tho, when I first joined the sub everyone was blaming Horst for Brogdan and when I posted the Lasry article where he told J-S it was his solely decision to trade him, I would still get downvoted lmao Of course, on a larger level that's reddit as a whole - narrative over facts, always lmao
I'm pro Horst and yeah, too many cooks spoil the soup. I'd like to see the Bucks move forward in the playoffs but I also hope we keep Horst around and he finds us a big with similar qualities to Giannis.
Horst doesn’t want to stay, this report is just further indication. He spent all our chips, so he’s looking for another game.
Yeah this is Horst wanting to leave not being forced out. It’s clear the Bucks are in a tough spot between the age of the roster, lack of assets, and maxed out payroll. Not to mention being saddled with Doc for at least another couple of seasons.
Same but honestly now I'm just worried about Giannis even staying here...might be reading way too much into it but last game with Dame sitting nowhere near Giannis or the team was pretty weird to see and if there's one thing we all know, Dame's not the one stirring any drinks in the Bucks organization
They mentioned on the broadcast Dame was in the back due to his injury and not being able to move well/risk aggravating it worse while in the healing process.
Brogdon didn’t want to stay. He wouldn’t be a sixth man for us, and was never any better than that.
[Wrong](https://www.nba.com/news/malcolm-brogdon-pacers-bucks-stayed) Stop believing all the pro-ownership homer BS you read on here - will free your mind
He literally said he didn’t want to stay unless he was valued the same as the pacers valued him. His usage his first season on Indy was equal to Khris’ usage in Milwaukee. He never could have been the player he was for them, here. He also demanded to play PG at the time, and we had a faster and better one that we had also just paid. Didn’t think we valued him, wanted to play a position we didn’t see view him as, and wanted to start when we (and every team that has kept him healthy since) has seen him as a sixth man.
Just stop already - [it was all Lasry](https://twitter.com/eric_nehm/status/1180192630422028289/photo/2) And also would appreciate if you'd stop stalking my comments - you're clearly 100% biased in favor of the hedge fund billionaires neutering our GM to the point shit like what happened today gets leaked to the media...and if you think it's good for the team we're seeing shit like this I hope you're never in a position of authority ever, anywhere e: downvote in less than a minute - could gaf about reddit points but clearly ownership troll shills out large and in charge lmao
I’m not stalking your comments, I am just commenting on things on this thread, mostly where I disagree. I certainly don’t find myself on the side of billionaires on a regular basis, but believing the sour grapes of a GM who wants to leave because he’s got no bullets left to fire is a strange place to convince yourself you are sticking it to the hedge fund crowd. It seems we aren’t seeing this the same way, but I’m not meaning to follow you around.
I'm confused has there been talk of the bucks moving? Didn't even think that was a consideration.
horst complaining about playing only vets like he hasn’t traded every young player we ever have. what was ibaka then or jae crowder??
Arguably, the Bucks have two great assets in GA and DL... I don't want to see those two leave, and neither does anyone else, but...
Yeah, I'd like to not think about moving them though, especially Giannis of course, lol.
I'm with you completely... It just came to me... We send Horst and Doc to the Pistons for draft picks or some players. Problem solved! "It's almost too easy." :)
No need to sugar coat it. They’re our only assets on the oldest roster in the league. Dame’s gonna be 34 next year and Giannis 30. Gotta face the music at some point and hopefully it’s before the injuries kill their value.
Last time the bucks had someone as good as Giannis was 50 years ago. It might be 50 more years before it happens again, so maybe let's not get rid of him any earlier than he wants to leave imo
We can have different opinions. I’m concerned that new ownership has hamstrung our GM so it’s hard to say what our best option is. If Horst is making the decisions, then I trust him to make the right call. If Haslem is pulling the strings then we’re fucked either way.
Heat gimme that Lillard package, ain’t too Proud to beg
It's not fun to talk about, but at some point this run is effectively over unless we get insanely lucky and land a star without a premium pick, someone drinks from the fountain of youth, or one of the young guys currently on the roster takes a huge leap. I think we have one more year, _maybe_ two where we can even be considered serious contenders. We have no money for big signings in FA and no assets to reliably land talent through the draft. We can't even bottom out because every pick after next year is either unprotected or a swap with NO and then Portland until like 2031, including most of our seconds. We can either waste the tail end of GA's career or send him somewhere he can compete and kick start the rebuild with a king's ransom of picks and young players.
I vote the latter. Real tough choices have to be made. Look at OKC as an example.
>To say Horst spent "years of bolstering the roster around Giannis, the Bucks now have the second-oldest team in the league" Not to mention the lack of draft picks for years to come.
The good new is we have Giannis and Dame under contract for 3 years. Many of the vets won't be back next year and Brook is on an expiring. Giannis + Dame + Khris + the young Bucks is a solid foundation, plus we have our 1st and Blazers 2nd this year. We can make some moves but we're gonna probably have to part ways with Brook and/or Bobby.
Letting go of those two is going to hurt... A lot. But the time has come.
brook will hurt but bobby is fine to leave. what does bruv ever do during the playoffs except against Phoenix?
Except in the finals is an absolutely crazy qualifier.
for sure but he was unplayable in the series before and after that. if we run into the suns in the finals again we are in luck i guess
Eh I feel the opposite. Gonna miss Bobby.
brook helped bring us to contention in 2018 with bud and was our first real center who didn’t suck ass and spread the floor perfectly for giannis and then on was anchoring the defense inside with giannis. massive key to what we had to this point but he’s getting older and slower its sad
Khris? He can go as well.
Fans like this can fuck off. Dudes pouring his fucking heart out and nearly single handedly carried us to a win with 4 players on the court with a crippled Dame. If we were able to do a basic function of a rebound we win. I get it with his injury history but at this point we ain't getting anything for him in return due to it. So there's no reason to just cut him loose cause when he is healthy he's great. Just so rare now but of the big 3 he's the only still standing when it matters most so
Horst, love ya, but if you didn’t have those powers, it’s probably best for both sides to move on
Yup and even tho this article confirms what many of us like me always thought what went down in the coach search, I still hate it. Should add I'm also now absolutely believing the rumor that Giannis didn't want Nurse solely because of what Siakam and OG told him - there's a reason why players should never be prioritized over GMs and this season proves it, even if it's an all time great like Giannis. e: grammar
Nurse is about to get bounced from the playoffs too...
Nurse is killing it in the playoffs, thank god you’re the couch owner and not the real one.
I didn't even really want Nurse all that much and think he's a bit overrated, but it's hardcore cope to pretend that hiring him wouldn't be vastly preferable to what we've gotten ourselves into now. AG was a disaster, which we stupidly followed by signing Doc to a $40 million contract. If Horst leaves, that opens the door to Doc being given more personnel control since the ownership group clearly was enamored with him. Give me Nick Nurse and his annoying assholery over all this BS in a heartbeat.
Can we chill on the whole nurse would solve all our issues. Last time I checked, his team is also down 3-1 in the finals. They lost Embiid and their record fell just as quickly. Doc has his issues but rn he’s on the same level as nurse for me.
Nurse also runs his guys into the ground.
Doc ran Giannis into the ground so that's not really an arguement.
Nurse is also a first team all NBA whiner and I'm glad I don't have to pretend I like him. Philly's the perfect place for him.
100%, and Giannis signed his extension *after* the coaching hire was made. Imagine this year with Giannis and Dame not coming together perfectly, and add in the will-he-won’t-he extension talks hanging over our heads all fucking season.
Playoffs not finals!
Fucking Jimmy Haslam. Kills everything he touches
Yeah I hated this as soon as it happened. Guaranteed to fuck things up. He is one of the absolute worst
No haslem no tax no dame.
Considering how much in that article is straight up wrong, I don't know how much stock I'd put into his reporting on this.
Thank you lol this is all going to be leaked stuff phrased how ppl leaking it want. It wasn’t binary on the coaching hires like that makes it out to be…
Horst is likely on the way out and, *if* this article is true, this is him protecting himself. However, a lot of the stuff in that article is full of shit. If Horst was against Doc because he mostly played vets, then why did he continuously trade away draft capital and give up players like Donte for fucking Serge Ibaka? It's best for both sides to move on.
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Let’s go through that team around him. Old, tired, slow.
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Bullshit. He could have drafted better, not traded for Serge or Crowder, found a way to keep Donte, he fucked up the Connaghton contract. He could have made a trade for an actual useful piece. There’s a lot he could have done
I thought Griff was a safe risk but am glad we didn't hire Nurse. Who is to say if we hired Atkinson, or even a Fernandez or \*Chris Quinn would things have been "better". edit\*
I wanted quinn awhile ago but he wasn't avaible this summer
He got an interview....
I'm pretty sure he signed with the hawks months before summer even started but perhaps I'm wrong
You're talking about Quin Snyder. They're talking about Chris Quinn. To be clear though, both would have been great options and better than the usual tired Doc, Atkinson, JVG, MDA etc memes
Right, I forgot about Snyder... I wanted someone from Spo's camp though. I think there is enough talent between Dame and Giannis to carry any coach and team to glory.
Nah, there's too many problems with the roster for many reasons. The best teams have multiple rotations with few holes and lots of versatility. This team doesn't. And Dame is very clearly not the same as before Hiring a better coach definitely would've helped, though
Lmao yeah my bad I thought I read quinn snyder that's on me Edit: Oh it was edited and originally just said quinn I'll call it a misunderstanding and rescind my admition of fault lol
The bad news, the ownership that didn’t like Gianni’s’ pick, or Horsts pick, are still the owners. They won’t want to fire Doc because he is their pick. Now the make Horst fall on the sword, and can put in a GM that does their bidding. Shit show in Milwaukee
That’s great, Horsts picks were a guy that had one good playoff run and a bunch of mediocre seasons that the best player in team history didn’t want, and a guy who literally runs the same system we are still paying Bud not to run anymore.
Or Doc will just be given more power...
Right get his input on drafts and trades. So Pat Bev was his guy, who else should be expect to show up?
Blake Griffen coming out of retirement.
What a nightmare season lol.
“league sources” giannis could “more or less..” pass
Limited resources be damned. This guy couldn't find one playable wing these last few years.
fuck!! please get someone who can draft and won’t trade for only vets. thankful for horst but the man couldn’t draft worth dick and the jae trade was really bad or the donte trade. really acting like Giannis came in the office and held people hostage for Griff when its the gm’s job to make those decisions.
Horst vindicated. Obviously he could of made better moves around the edges but the HC debacle this year was the most debilitating thing to the team and he was on the right side of it and essentially screwed by ownership and Giannis. Giannis you are a great player, but you aren’t a GM.
Vindicated by leaking that it's everyone's fault but his own? Everyone's fault but the person who's job it is to build the team? Folks that are skilled at passing the blame will always find themselves in situations where passing the blame is important (to them).
Horst vindicated based on what? Because of Nick Nurse? LMFAOOOOO Horst did nothing but spend time adding unathletic and old players to the team in the last 4 deadlines. Him not moving guys like Pat while also adding washed players like Jae, Torrey Craig, Gallo, Ingles, DJ Augustine, etc to rosters that were trying to win a championship is much worse then one stupid coaching decision.
It's honestly incredible that anybody would defend Horst in this situation. We've been making moves like this before Bud was gone and Halsam came in. Horst has been the one constant in that front office making these moves.
Thank you
It's more on ownership and the team for giving Giannis that power. There's nothing wrong with taking his input but at the end of day you gotta make the best decision for the team. Not just put it on him. Giannis isn't the one actually hiring anyone.
Are we all just kind of ignoring the fact that Griffin made it to the finalists? Like sometimes the way people talk about this makes me think they think Horst did his own search from scratch and Giannis was out there putting interviews together separately. Horst had a shortlist that included Adrian Griffin, Horst clearly believed in Adrian Griffin as well - otherwise he isn't on the shortlist. If Horst went into the last stage with exactly one head coach he liked, but put three names out there for Giannis and Khris to speak to and ask about, then he's a fucking idiot and I don't think he's a fucking idiot. Also, just to agree with you, if you are asking a player for input and making your decision *solely* on that input then you're not doing your job as a GM.
Yeah but the 3 finalist narrative was also put out to the media by ownership, right? Not saying it isn't true but unless confirmed by Horst himself, everything after today now seems sus af about whatever truly happened last off season.
I don't understand what you think happened if you don't think the Bucks FO, like every single front office with every single off-season coaching search, narrowed a long list to a shorter one. And why would Horst ever call his own press conference to detail the coaching search? If you don't think there were finalists, but do think Giannis wanted Adrian Griffin, how do you think Giannis got to that view? Was he doing his own coaching search?
That's not what I said tho, my point is the way things have been portrayed up until now were clearly misleading and regardless of Horst's pressers if you don't think he's carrying water for ownership over all else (including telling us the exact truth), I don't know what to tell you.
That is what you said though, you suggested that the information that there were three finalists (reported by numerous news breakers) was not true. So why do you think this coaching search was done completely differently to every other coaching search, and why do you think Giannis ended up liking Adrian Griffin? Just because an exec obviously presents things in a way that aren't hostile to the ownership doesn't mean everything that has happened has been a lie good grief.
> and why do you think Giannis ended up liking Adrian Griffin? You didn't hear about Siakam and OG's role? > doesn't mean everything that has happened has been a lie good grief Where did I say everything was a lie? Never said any absolutes like that, nor would I ever and again, what I'm saying is not to take everything Bucks FO/ownership says as gospel either and this news today certainly affirms that we shouldn't. Feel free to disagree but please don't completely misinterpret and try and re-frame the argument I'm actually making in doing so.
How did Giannis ever know who Adrian Griffin was *unless he was a finalist for the hire*? If you genuinely don't believe such an obvious thing such as 'Jon Horst had a list of candidates and then narrowed that down to a shorter list of candidates for the last stage of the search' then I don't know what you could possibly *actually* think is true.
Again, show me where I ever argued exactly that? All I said is not to take that *or any* report as gospel either as we now know that there was *clearly* more going on behind the scenes than what's been portrayed to date. Not sure why you seem so hellbent on ignoring that perspective after I've explained it multiple times while also taking it so personally tbh. e: actually, I see your other [post](https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1cg50cr/oconnor_league_sources_tell_me_theres_a_real/l1tublq/) on r/nba and it's safe to say we'll never see eye-to-eye on this
I really don't think it's that deep. They just let go of their long time coach who failed to adapt (aka McCarthy) and likely wanted someone long term to build and grow with Giannis. They had the proven candidate in Nurse, the unexperienced up and coming candidate in Griffin (like Lafluer he actually didn't have that great of a resume other than who he worked with) and honestly forgot the 3rd. But is that really that odd they tried Griffin? Giannis liked Griffin, they're looking to help revitalize their team so they took a risk. It failed, it happens. I don't think it's some weird, deep conspiracy kinda thing. Just made the wrong choice. Just could be questions about how he got that far if he was that bad to fire as a top seed in the East mid-season. Must be an insane interviewer or it's incompetence. Let's also be fair, Nurse isn't exactly doing so hot either. And he's got his top 2 players actually playing and they're about to lose the exact same way the Bucks are but we're down our top 2.
Right? Nurse has missed the playoffs almost as much as he has made them.
> But is that really that odd they tried Griffin? Considering how many times Griff has been interviewed over the past decade without getting hired ([many times](https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nba/bucks/2023/09/28/adrian-griffin-brings-authentic-positive-command-to-milwaukee-bucks-head-coaching-job/70911227007/) including with LAL in 2022 when Ham beat him out), yeah, it *absolutely is an outlier that we hired him* - I don't know where this narrative came in that Griff wasn't a tried commodity, he's been an assistant coach in the NBA for more than a decade who's applied for many head coaching jobs and we're the only team that took a chance despite our own GM not being on board; surely you can see what that's problematic af?? As for Nurse, yeah, I do think we should have hired him over Griff. But that said, I've also always argued we should have let Griff at least coach the entire year because we not only should we own the mistake, but also not rush into hiring his replacement - now that we know Horst wasn't on board with hiring Doc, it really seems like that would have been a better path forward because Doc would have still been available to interview this off season. But now? Ownership forced Horst's hand and we're stuck with Doc for the next 2 seasons at the least (or more if Giannis/Dame ask out this off season). Anyway, I can totally appreciate your perspective but I hope you can agree ownership meddling like this is never a good thing.
After the GM with one foot out the door puts out a press release disguised as breaking news, everything is sus af?
If you have a player like Giannis, you HAVE to give him that sort of control over the franchise. Thanasis doesn't belong on an NBA roster, but he gets paid over $2M/year because his brother is Giannis and for literally no other reason.
You can absolutely and should give them say in certain matters. But if Griffin was that horrible of a candidate or you truly believe in another you have to make that call and trust it. Horst gave them 3 to talk to, Griffin had made it that far, and hindsight it's not like Nurse actually is doing well. He's about to lose the exact same way the Bucks are but his stars are playing. Just the putting all the blame on giannis or saying he hired him is beyond stupid.
Horst vindicated because a guy who can't even look at which of our players have actually been getting playing time this post season printed a leak from Horst?
Vindicated? Did Giannis build the roster of Methuselahs? The “sources” back then were that Horst wanted Doc. Now the “sources” say Horst wanted another HC but the owners wanted Doc.
Players should never have power over roster making decisions. 99% of the time they're going to want to play with their besties regardless of whether they're trash or not. And most of the time they are
If anyone is vindicated, it's Bud. It should have been Horst who was canned last year.
If I was him I would definitely go. He'll have at least 5 years as GM there.
As a fan without any say in the decision making, almost can't help but laugh at this point. We had 2021, our one championship for every 50 years I guess. Fuck it, it was much less stressful being a fan in the Mike Redd/Andrew Bogut and T.J. Ford/Desmond Mason being lob city light era's
Horstshit from Horst. Fire the fucker
I’ll help him pack.
This all puta a bad taste in my mouth about Horst. its kinda his fault we had all these coaching changes that fucked us a bit and also his fault that we have a bunch of old injury prone vets. But okay see ya pal ✌️
So many delusional and emotional fans in here. Horst wasn't perfect, but especially in the last half decade, he tried to make the best out of everything. Got Brook Lopez for the freeskis when the Lakers ditched him, got us jrue, immediately turned into a chip, flipped jrue for dame when we needed guard offense, a move no one saw coming, all the while doing his best to cater to his franchise player (which may have been the tipping point for us). Frankly, if the reports are true, Giannis gotta hold this one. I would understand this if Horst was completely incompetent at his job, but the reality is that Horst was making the best with what he could and it came up big for us. Sometimes players just got to play and trust in their front office who has shown you they can make plays.
Remember when people said Haslam getting ownership steak won’t impact the team? This FO has looked like a dumpster fire since he got on board
He took the owners out for steak? He sounds like a nice dude actually
I mean he owns 25%. If this stuff is ownerships fault, it’s not just him we’re talking about.
He doesn't have that kind of power. People are looking for yet another scapegoat when the issue is Horst. Horst built the roster, not Halsam.
So, Haslem was awarded a steak for team ownership? I guess that's a nice consolation prize.
Proof positive that you should never just blindly listen to players no matter who they are. If you get to the point where the star player doesn't have enough faith in the GM to do their jobs and make the moves that are in the best interest of the team then you should find a new GM. Letting the player run things is among the worst things you can do.
We're gonna come back to this thread in a month and laugh and laugh as we hoist another trophy.
bull shit my ass, the only way hes taking that job is if bucks ownership sends him packing
Summary: Horst wants Nick Giannis wants Griffin Griffin got sacked Horst wants Kenny Atkinson Giannis wants Doc Horst see his insights and power dwindling Horst was former staff of Detroit and is a Detroit local Team filled with vets. Fresh draft players find it hard to play regular in Bucks culture. I would say bad growth culture. My add: Giannis nepotism caused the team 1 extra spot
Giannis is my favorite player in any sport of all time, but i think he fucked us here. Not hiring nurse was such a massive mistake. Giannis plays the humble card but there have been several times this year where he’s shown his big ego and stubbornness (ballgate, not sitting out when partially injured, choosing Griffin) and it really messed up the team. We need an alpha to come in and coach him up in more ways than one, if we want to win more shots at a title and less first round exits.
Where is Nurse’s team now? How are they doing? Because Knicks have folded them inside out.
Embiid in the playoffs drops off hard (mentally soft and his foul baiting doesn’t work) but the sixers have a far less talented roster than the bucks. Nurse is absolutely a better coach than griffin and doc.
The bucks have far better….you for real? Put the regular season bucks to play as many games as the sixers did w/o the effort and the mentality that Giannis brings and see what happens. Our players were abysmal regular season and they are bad now except the youngs and Kris/Dame.
Giannis Dame Khris (when healthy) is like the best rated trio, vs embiid (playoff choker) and Maxey (he rules) and a below average supporting cast on the sixers. The bucks are v top heavy but still a far more talented playoff starting core. Nurse would have us playing much better and more consistent
I thought it was Docs fault that Sixers sucked last year and without him they would have won it all. Now with Nurse is Embiids? I’m confused. Because Giannis carries worlds doesn’t make Nurse a good choice.
Embiid is a loser. Giannis is a winner but needs to improve a few things to get to the mountain top again. He needs an alpha coach or teammate to help overcome his stubbornness, which is like his only big flaw. Nurse would have possibly been that person — clearly griffin and doc aren’t it. I’m not a doc hater but he’s just an average coach at best.
Nurse record after became HC: 2019 Championship 2020 Conference semis 2021 nada 2022 first round exit 2023 nada 2024 you see where this is going.
Nurse wasn’t available. ESPN had reported at the time of the Griffin hire that Nurse was finalizing contract details with PHI while doing his first interview with the Bucks. We were contract leverage.
No, Nurse wasn't available only from the moment it was leaked Giannis didn't want him - it was only at that moment he (wisely) immediately retracted himself from consideration.
Bye, bye Jon Horst. One of the most clueless and lazy GM in the league. He'd rather point fingers and place the blame on others instead of taking ownership of the mess that he caused. He surrounded Giannis with slow, old, and unathletic players, and wants to point fingers at others even though he's the main architect behind this mess to begin with. If he really cared about Giannis' input he would've surrounded him with the kind of players Giannis likes. Even I know the kind of players Giannis likes based on his interviews and I don't work in the Bucks front office. Don't let the door hit you on your way out. Hope he takes Doc along with him to that job he has lined up in Detroit. I don't want to see both of them here next year. I don't care if Haslem has to pay four coaches as long as Doc is gone from this team. They better not make him the GM.
Bro he made plays to get the core together, adjusted to get Jrue, took feedback from org about doing something, then got Dame (surprised everyone). That’s legit. What isn’t legit is the AG hire
He’s constructed a roster where Pat Connaughton receives minutes (and would if they were fully healthy) on a 3 year 9 million a year contract. Jae Crowder for 5 second rounders. His two cardinal sins in a nutshell
>One of the most clueless and lazy GM in the league. You *conveniently* left out the detail that he brought together the roster that WON THE BUCKS THEIR FIRST CHAMPIONSHIP IN OVER 50-YEARS. C'mon, dude -- this is just revisionist, prisoner of the moment crap. Horst has made some questionable moves that didn't amount to much (the Donte for Ibaka trade still stings), but to insist he's the sole reason why the Bucks are in this predicament is ironically *clueless* and *lazy*.
I agree that he did a good job of assembling our championship roster, but since then he's failed to adjust. Teams only get older and always trading draft capital and assets away for washed up bench players over 30 (making us even older) was an indictment on his run as GM. He was always more focused on being competitive for the next season, rather than making the right moves to ensure we are competitive with Giannis for years to come, and it caught up with him. The fact Giannis had to play so much towards the end of the season because the rest of the team couldn't keep up with younger teams is all that needs to be mentioned.
I think a prevailing inclination for Horst to seek out savvy vets for the roster to be competitive in the post-season wasn't necessarily misplaced, but the issue being that he targeted and eventually acquired vets whose level of play were well behind them with the only exception being PJ Tucker. This compounds the roster issues/holes because Horst used draft capital to get these vets and effectively hamstrung the Bucks' ability to acquire younger, upside players in the draft.
Hammond was WAY more responsible for the championship than Horst
I feel the same way towards Horst as I do Bobby. I appreciate what he did for our championship run, but I’m ready to move on. Horst doesn’t value young players and picks enough, and I don’t want him dealing away all of the rest of our chances at getting younger just for washed vets.
I rather would’ve had someone else over Nurse, but the closer it got to the end, I was really pulling for him. I understand the desire to appease Giannis, but Giannis isn’t LeGM. We’ve seen his previous All-Star game line up selections and they weren’t very good. Although freakishly athletically gifted and hard working, his basketball IQ is quite average, and I wouldn’t have allowed him to have that much influence on picking the head coach. Doc was one I never would’ve selected, but we’re stuck with him now, and I’m not sure who else we could’ve gone with. Could we really have selected Atkinson like that mid season? Seems odd…
His basketball IQ is quite average lol The fucking internet man. Some of yall crack me up.
Look, I love Giannis, but i’m not going to sit here and be delusional about a part of his game he clearly needs to improve on. Basketball IQ is one of his biggest short comings. The countless offensive fouls, driving through the lane out of control, not spamming pick and rolls to get open, lack of development of a post game, and 10-second FT violations… All of those things relate to his less than ideal basketball IQ. How? Because it shows a lack of understanding/awareness of the game around him. Again, I love Giannis, but he’s not perfect. How many playoff games have we watched over the years where critical possessions end up in his hands and a charge is drawn? How many 10 second violations will it take for him to speed up his routine?
The guy on reddit telling me about a 2 time MVPs low basketball IQ. Post a fucking thesis bro. Could care less. Clown level shit.
Idk how this is incorrect. Being a 2x MVP doesn't necessarily mean you have top tier basketball IQ. It's definitely one of Giannis shortcomings and if you actually watched the game (of basketball), it would be noticable. He easily falls into traps whether it be barreling into walls and racking up offensive fouls, taking I'll advised shots (especially getting baited into shooting 3s) and can become pretty hot headed at times. Doesn't mean he isn't a top 20 player all time potentially, just that he has his flaws like any other great. Also, it's COULDN'T care less. By your semantics, it means you do care.
Please tell me more about your lack of knowledge of basketball. Carry on
You think he gives a shit about the All-Star team lineup beyond having fun with it? I'm not saying the guy is a future GM, but come on.
We could have had Griff or Prunty finish the season and get him lined up. You never know, Warriors might understand the guys ambitions and let him take an opportunity. What we got was rumors they were getting Doc, then Doc showed up a week later.
Very interesting.
Good
Bucks in 7
Doc to become GM? Hopefully that way when we hire a new coach his current contact isn't just lighting money on fire (again). I feel like if Horst leaves that would at least be some kind of positive to come, but who knows how Doc would be as GM.
My dude stop leaking BS Horst. You haven't made a single good move since the Jrue trade and even the moves before that one werent good. All you have to do was look at Giannis and pair him with actual wing defenders. You litterally lucked into Lopez signing for cheap because of a disaster in LA. You lucked out that Bobby found the love he wanted from the people in Milwaukee. What have you even done to help? The Jrue trade was the only W. Jurys out on Dame, but its not looking promising. And you still fucking hired Doc. Stand on your fucking morals and walk away if ownership told you its Doc. Have fun in Detroit. Without a Giannis onto carry the Geriatric Hospital you like to assemble. Instead of whittling it down to 3 and asking Giannis. You should have whittled it down to 10 and asked Giannis to eliminate 2 or 3 and chosen from the rest yourself.
Lol, my dude, I don't think Horst browses the Bucks subreddit.
Giannis doing us wrong with his choices. SMH.
New GM coming in that gets his choice of head coach probably is best. Like let’s be honest, doc is not winning a ring again and is the most overrated coach in the nba Can we please right the wrongs of last year and bring in Atkinson finally?