I knew I couldn't be the only one thinking this.
If Roger actually listens to this, I'm sure he's going to have a talk with Joey. He certainly wants Larson to come back next year, and if Larson does not get a waiver this year he's not going to.
Joey is secretly playing 3D chess to get fired from his contract because the Penske cars suck right now.
(Although now that the Indy 500, which is always priority #1 for Penske, is over, Team Penske may get serious trying to fix the Cup cars in time for the playoffs; they got to make it though).
Blaney still has a top-10 car every week. Cindric and Burton are pulling that team down. They need better guys in those cars yo get better feedback for the team as a whole.
I think that’s what makes this so clear cut for me that Larson deserves a waiver. Larson choosing to miss the Cup race aside, if you have someone that violated the rules to the point the sanctioning body decides to suspend you from a race and then still provides you a waiver, I think you pretty much are now obligated to provide just about anyone with a waiver.
I disagree. I think you have to have waivers for suspensions because otherwise you can't hand out a suspension without also handing out a championship disqualification and this actually ties NASCAR's hands quite a lot. Because I think you could argue that there's a lot of things that might be deserving of a suspension, but not from complete removal from the championship. But if there's no waiver then NASCAR will probably just never be able to suspend anyone (and they already don't hand out enough imo) because suddenly the punishment is so much bigger. Kyle is different because no one told Kyle he couldn't race. He just chose not to race.
That would have to be something really bad.
Right rearing someone is bad enough for a one week suspension, but I wouldn't flat out ban someone from the playoff for it.
It would basically have to be a criminal act or racing under the influence in my mind to justify a playoff ban.
Easy answer. You get your waiver, but your previous wins don’t count for the playoffs. You have to win another race to get in. This way it’s a much more impactful penalty but not a post season death sentence.
This is exactly right. Also, it wasn’t a decision made by the driver or team to not race. If he weren’t suspended, he would have raced, he just wasn’t allowed to. You have to give a waiver for that for the exact reason you mentioned… you otherwise can’t suspend someone without removing them from the championship race. Thats obviously a terrible situation to put your sport in.
Bc a penalty for something that happened in race shouldn’t affect one’s championship chances. That was never ever the intention of the waiver rule. Imagine getting sat out of an nfl game for a rule infringement and then you don’t get to play in playoff games or get a super bowl ring if your team wins it. That’s silly.
Agree or disagree but that's how the targeting rule in college football works if the penalty occurs in the second half of a game, the player could miss the first half of the next game which could be a playoff or championship game.
The suspension was to cost him a race, not cost him a shot at the championship. That’s why. NASCAR isn’t trying to penalize someone more than they have to. Yes he intentionally wrecked him. Bubba intentionally wrecked Larson at Vegas prior to that. Busch wrecked hornaday back in 2011. The simple fact is if they hadn’t given a waiver and Chase made the playoffs, he’d be ineligible. Is that fair to penalize someone a shot at a championship? No it’s not. Same goes for any of the other instances and any other drivers. Issuing a penalty or punishment of any kind during the season is not meant to hurt the drivers chances long term or else the punishment would state that.
Am I the only one who thinks this shouldn’t even be a discussion? Waivers have been handed out like candy over the years. Are you really going to draw the line here? You want to make the championship favorite suddenly ineligible now? For what?
“But but he skipped nascar!” Well that was not his intent ever. Plan was to be back in time for coke 600, he got put in a terrible position.
His penalty is already there, that he didn’t get any points for the race and lost his points lead. He’s going to be a race behind everyone now for the rest of the year, In my opinion that’s a lot on its own. There is zero precedent or reason to make your best driver in the entire sport suddenly ineligible.
If NASCAR was wise, they would just grant Kyle the waiver. Don’t hurt your sport because someone wanted to try the double.
I mean, they granted it for snowboarding once.
No, because the reason the rule exists in the first place is to prevent drivers from intentionally running one or a handful of races to get into the playoffs. They don't want a part-time driver eating up a spot.
None of the waivers granted had that situation. It's pretty clear.
Then they should make it if you miss races and you don't point your way in to the top 16 in points then you're not playoff eligible. Would solve that problem immediately. If someone has a family emergency or something they should be able to miss the race without having to worry about getting a waiver, they just have to work hard when they get back.
The rule can easily be improved without ruining the spirit by:
A) Requiring a driver finish a certain position or higher in points (the Kyle Busch rule)
B) Requiring a certain percentage of races to be attempted; you miss 2-4 races for "reasons" then that is what it is.
C) Each win offsets a race not attempted. Kyle Larson misses 1 race and wins 1 race? He's got to point in. Misses one and wins 2? The second one counts. Misses 1 and didn't win? Ineligible.
D) Declaring the championship about the Best Damn Stock Car Drivers and not caring about races ran. You win? You better find a ride for the final 10. You miss one of *those* races and we'll just assume you forfeited your eligibility, congrats to the dude who finished the season in 16th.
E) Old Points System
Okay, so get rid of the waiver and also get rid of the "win and you're in" bs and that solves both issues. You get in on points and that's it. Eliminates the part time driver hypothetical altogether.
In certain ways, sure, but they gave Chase a waiver when he missed a race because of a serious penalty. Kyle will obviously get one here (as he should).
Not to mention, the amount of media attention the double brings to NASCAR is massive. They absolutely benefitted from Larson running the double. It’s great for the sport, and should be encouraged. It’s not like he skipped to go fishing.
Why do people keep bringing up the snowboarding and suspensions?
As I understand the purpose of the waiver, it is so nobody chooses not to race on a given weekend. Chase did not have a choice. KFB didn't have a choice. Larson had a choice.
I'd honestly agree with everyone that NASCAR should grant it to avoid the controversy, but Larson doesn't deserve it. He point blank chose to race at a different race instead.
I would liken this more to a guy having a baby and missing the start of a race. It's just not worth the bad press to stick to the rules.
I’m with you on the waiver. Just avoid the bad optics. I personally think it’s good drivers try the double and helps the interest in both IndyCar and NASCAR (I actually wish more IndyCar drivers tried it but winning the Indy 500 is just so monumental).
It just sucks the waiver thing has come down to this.
Chase made a decision to get on a snowboard. Kyle made a decision to race in a feeder series race. I would liken this more to MLB/NFL crossover players who would finish the MLB season before playing on the gridiron. NFL wasn't going to keep those players out of the playoffs for making that decision.
Right. He intended to run both races. Nascar knew full and well what his intentions were. Regardless, HMS apparently hasn't put in the waiver request. There's no question. Nascar is granting the waiver when they get the request. The speculation is just stupid at this point.
Sure, that's a choice, and I think he made the right choice to run the 500. You only get so many chances to attempt whet he did. I hope he tries again next year. He clearly was very competitive when other drivers were wrecking their shit.
I also think his team suspected the weather would affect the Nascar race and he'd be good anyway. Most of us didn't expect the Charlotte race to be called when it did.
And I don't think there was ever a question by the team that he'd get a waiver if worst came to worst. It's a reasonable assumption.
Even if he had gotten in the car he *still* missed the race. Justin would have gone down in the record books as the driver of the 5 car for the 2024 Coke 600.
If you’re going to let your bias show, why wouldn’t you just bring up the suspension? I’m an Elliott fan and even I don’t agree he should have gotten one for that.
Dude didn’t mean to get injured. He did mean to wreck Hamlin. If you’re going to be a hater, at least do it well.
Elliot got injured living his life. A waiver for that is fine. Elliot wrecked somebody and got suspended for it. A waiver for that is fine. That was one less race Elliot could have used to win or point his way into the championship and that was the racing punishment. Missing out on a paycheck was the monetary punishment. Suspensions happen all the time in other sports and those athletes come back to their teams and compete for the championship at the end of the day.
Kenseth got a waiver for 2020 after missing four races at the start of the season, the entire 2019 season, and more than half of the 2018 season.
Why the fuck are we having this asinine argument about the integrity of the Playoffs? There is no integrity to Playoff waivers and there hasn't been for a long time.
Kenseth didn’t even choose that himself. Chase Elliott and Johnny Sauter choosing to be assholes and getting suspended, yet still getting waivers, is the best example of why this shouldn’t even be a debate. And it won’t be. Just feels like Nascar is just dragging this out for clicks and attention.
I’m an Elliott fan and even I’ll 100% agree with you.
I’ve borderline hated Larson in the past. I like him now, but just proving the point that I’m not some huge Larson fan.
And even I don’t understand how this is even a discussion.
I really thought that the eligibility was based on being declared for Cup points, and attempting to qualify for every race (which was in there in case an open team won a race, and then failed to qualify for a race if more than 40 cars showed up to the track as unlikely as both of those scenarios are).
It may have been an old version of an old Championship format, but I do remember seeing an infographic once upon a time, but the way search algorithms work it’s long been buried because of everyone writing about having to start all 26 races. However if that is how the rule is still written, then he might not even require a waiver, since he did qualify for the race, or they are still seeking clarification before submitting it.
> he might not even require a waiver, since he did qualify for the race
Denny Hamlin qualified for the 2014 Auto Club 400 at Fontana, but did not run the race due to a sinus infection. He needed a waiver to remain championship eligible.
It’s as clear as mud, but from the article from 2014, https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2014/01/30/nascar-announces-chase-for-the-sprint-cup-format-change/amp/ it is written like Denny didn’t even need a waiver.
It could be misinterpreted by the journalist, or JGR filled it out and NASCAR said, you didn’t have to, but we will approve it since you sent it in.
This is correct. I do not like Kyle Larson, he is my least favorite driver, but to not give him a waiver would be absolutely stupid, considering what they've given waivers for before. What Kyle did wasn't dumb, and some people have gotten waivers for being dumb.
I can't stand KL but doing the double draws in interest to NASCAR not just from Indycar fans but normies for who the 500 is the only motorsport they watch all year. Growing the sport is a good thing and for as much as I dislike Larson, he needs to be commended for doing just that. AND this is besides how the waivers have been handed out like candy for things like injury's sustained in off track recreational accidents.
It would be an extremely odd (and foolish) hill for nascar to die on with the waiver rule. Like you said, waivers have been handed out seemingly no questions asked for different scenarios in the past. I have no issue with him getting the waiver especially since the cause of him missing the “600 miles” was out of his control. NASCAR has received a lot of publicity from Larson doing this so punishing him would not do the sport any favors in terms of growth. Kind of a “no fun league” scenario if they don’t grant it
Im in the same boat. I have no idea how this is even a discussion.
I’m not even a Larson fan, and in the past, was a straight up Larson hater. But that’s only because I’m an Elliott fan, so go figure.
But the dude is undeniable. As you said, waivers have been handed out like candy. So how are you going to take a situation where a guy has single handedly put more eyeballs on two different series than they’ve had in years, and punish him for it? The amount of exposure that both NASCAR and IndyCar has gotten from this is immeasurable. A rising tide raises all ships. And you’re going to act like this is where we draw the line now?
I could understand if there was a precedent set. If NASCAR didn’t hand waivers out often. But even I’ll be the first to admit Elliott shouldn’t have gotten one after the Hamlin incident. The injury? Sure. But intentionally wrecking someone and getting suspended? Absolutely not. (As much as I was okay with the move because I agree with Elliott’s assessment that Hamlin pulls that whole “I’m going to run you high and make you lift” move too much.” But you made that decision and got suspended. You should be punished for it. But he gets one anyway.
Now we’re going to sit here and act like we have to draw a line in the sand with Larson for trying to do something that’s extremely positive for both sports? I just don’t get it. It’s not his fault it rained. It could be a once in a lifetime opportunity. Of course he stays.
And the ENTIRE point that I think needs to be highlighted here is that Larson has *already* been penalized for the decision, because he received zero points this week. That’s a huge penalty in itself. Which is the point. Sometimes these types of things carry a severe enough penalty naturally. You don’t need to ruin the guy’s entire year for trying to do something great.
What is that saying and teaching everyone? NASCAR doesn’t encourage its drivers giving themselves and the sport extra exposure? NASCAR doesn’t want arguably its greatest talent to show off his skills? They better not ever talk about any of Larson’s accolades again then. Don’t ever think about using the term “generational talent” ever again if that’s the case.
Just absurd man.
> Well that was not his intent ever.
At 3:00 PM eastern time on Sunday, that became his intent. He could have gotten on a plane and left Indy and made it to the 600 to start the race. He CHOSE not to do so.
Fix the points system and this never happens.
No one in Indycar with a legit shot at a championship would skip the 500 to run the 600 If the start times were flipped because missing a race probably costs them a title.
NASCAR's goofy ass playoffs allow for this choice to be made.
Or Lajoie. Or Hamlin. Just the side effect of podcasting?
Although the media at least loves Hamlin even if fans don't, they don't fawn on Joey like him. Oh look, Jenna took a shot at Joey for his opinion.
[https://twitter.com/JennaFryer/status/1795812584538456079](https://twitter.com/JennaFryer/status/1795812584538456079)
What a strange tweet lmao. A bigger thing occurring doesn't mean smaller things should just be pushed aside. If NASCAR can't put a little focus into a playoff waiver because a team is shutting down, maybe NASCAR needs some more competent people in charge.
Also, the snarky comment at the end is unbelievably unprofessional but people won't care because it's a driver they don't like.
Yeah. To be fair, Jenna does tend to post snarky/frivolous comments on social media, versus pretty professional articles. Maybe she was trying to prove [to this guy](https://twitter.com/gomtuu359/status/1793797161768944117) she doesn't "fangirl" Joey?
Every driver/crew chief/other person who knows more about the sport than the average redditor who says something the fans agree with is brave and we should listen to them and everyone who says something they disagree with is a NASCAR shill and toeing the company line
Not granting the waiver tells future drivers to not attempt the double.
Drivers attempting the double is a huge publicity boost to both NASCAR and Indycar.
Bingo there it is folks. Nascar is in the entertainment business and they need eye balls on screens watching races. Getting people to watch the Indy 500 then the coke 600 is enough of a bump to warrant the waiver especially since Kyle notified nascar well in advance.
Look, based on the rules that Nascar provides. No, he is not eligible. He didn't attempt the race, he didn't miss due to race related injury.
But when you ignore the rules, waiver to someone who gets injured from another sport, during vacation time on the slopes, getting suspended ect
Then you can't actually expect to enforce it now. You pass the waiver and alter the rules to fit what actually happens.
Nascar likes to play open ended with their own rules and now it puts them in a position. They need to just change the rule.
You cannot enforce it now at this point.
Yeah, it's been 20 years, and my interest in the sport has decreased every single one. The playoffs are a joke and that's not how racing works or should work. It makes the "regular season" feel almost entirely worthless.
I think what makes this tricky is Larson's decision to stay at Indy.
But I also think HMS just needs to apply for a waiver, and Larson would get one. So it's kind of on HMS right now.
Exactly. As Joey said Kyle chose the Indy 500 as more important than the Coke 600 on the day. He chose another series than the one he is fighting for a championship and was leading the points in. I think the pro waiver people especially guys like Gluck get way too emotional arguing the positives of the double outweighing any consequences and Kyle deserves the waiver. In the weeks leading up every one from HMS to Arrow-McLaren said if weather becomes an issue then Kyle will focus on the Coke 600 and Tony Kanaan will drive the 17. Then they backed off that as the forecast got worse.
My personal issue with this isn't that he stayed for Indy but that he stayed once it became obvious the 500 start time and full race meant he'd miss at least half of the 600. I understand those laps will be extremely beneficial to him being competitive next year but it doesn't sit right with me from a competition perspective for NASCAR.
if harrison burton, or some other driver below the top 25 or even top 30 in points, had lucked into a win at Talladega, and then chose to run Indy 500 instead of Coke 600 i think this conversation is very different.
I think an interesting added rule could be that you can get in on points without a waiver. So if Larson is still in the top 16 even after missing a race he should qualify. But if you're not granted a waiver you can't qualify through a win.
That would also make NASCARs decision to not grant a waiver easier because they aren't full on barring someone from the playoffs by not granting.
That's the problem with the playoffs. In a system where only points count, Kyle Larson would simply have one race with 0 points and would have to deal with that. He could make up for that one race with a good performance.
It's important to remember that in the first three decades of NASCAR, only a few drivers competed in all races of a season and it did happen every now and then that a driver still won the championship.
This waiver rule is unnecessary.
I do respect Mr. Logano's opinion here but let's not forget that this entire scenario of needing waivers is due to NASCAR running a Mickey Mouse championship format. Season long points where missing a race like this might make or break you will make a team think twice on the decision. I would still stay in Indy if I am Larson/Hendrick in that scenario.
He's right, but personally I'd keep my mouth shut about it.
I hope Larson gets a waiver, because I have zero belief he realized what was actually gonna happen. Gotta be a miscommunication. But I can see where it makes NASCAR look bad, if they grant it and then deny some driver with less star power.
There's a 100% chance that NASCAR gives Larson a waiver. Might as well lock and delete every thread that brings it up until it happens at this point. We are all wasting ur time .
Roger intentionally delayed Indy so Larson would miss Charlotte and eliminate him from the playoffs.
\*hands out tin foil hats and watches chaos ensue\*
If the Indy 500 and coke 600 were scheduled for the same time and he just skipped NASCAR for IndyCar, I’d agree he shouldn’t get a waiver. But that was never the intention.
He chose the Indy 500 over the Coke 600. He had the chance to fly to Charolette to start once he knew the Indy 500 was going to be delayed for 4 hours.
To play devils advocate, that is exactly what he did. Due to rain, the races were scheduled at the same time (as far as his schedule allowed) and he picked the Indy 500 over the Coke 600.
Any driver that got injured not in a cup car chose those races over nascar. You can get hurt in a race car so if you cared about nascar you would make sure you couldn’t get injured in another series. Just because they were at the same time doesn’t mean other drivers didn’t make the same choice.
Intention in this case was Larson decided to choose the Indy 500. Kyle Larson has a full time career in the NASCAR Cup Series. The rule states a driver must compete in all 36 races to be eligible to run the Championship. Larson wasn't injured, Larson didn't get suspended for a race, Larson CHOOSE to race in the Indy 500.
Who cares?
No really, who fucking cares??
The rule is there to prevent cherry picking. That's not what Larson is doing. The only reason you'd so blatantly defy the spirit of the rule is because you want to disqualify a competitor.
I was mindblown when I saw he's sitting outside the top 16 right now, I just assumed he was chilling around that 10th-12th range like Blaney.
Starting to think I'm gonna regret picking him to make the Championship 4 in my predictions pool lmao
I’ve always assumed the point of the rule was really to make sure that something like SVG making the playoffs last year because he won the street race didn’t happen. That NASCAR didn’t want to leave open the possibility of a part time driver qualifying for the playoffs because they won one race. I never thought they were trying to be strict on obvious full time drivers missing one or maybe even a few races for whatever circumstances. Injuries should obviously qualify for a waiver. Suspensions feel weirder but I feel like if they were strict on no waivers for suspensions then they would just not suspend drivers when their actions merited a suspension. And in this instance where the intent was always to run the race and only weather screwed it up it seems obvious to grant the waiver. What Larson was doing was beneficial to NASCAR, to penalize him for it would be stupid.
Maybe the waiver should be he has to qualify again so he would need to win or be in on points.
In my opinion missing a race shouldn't ruin your chances but also the argument he didn't choose Indy over NASCAR is just B's and wrong he did.
Seems super simple to me.
If you are good enough to beat everybody else and still make the playoffs while missing an entire race...
You deserve to be in. That's it. End of discussion.
(And people whining about this should drive faster)
I wish they would get rid of the waiver rule all together. If a driver is good enough to make the playoffs without racing in a few races they deserve to make the playoffs.
I disagree slightly only because of the current rules. A win gets you in at this point. If I win the Daytona 500 and decide to skip a few races here and there because I'm already locked in...that's a bad look.
Well then a win shouldn't get you in.
I've never understood points/championships being assigned to a driver. A driver is part of a team. The points/wins should be assigned to the car number. Driver that started most races at that team is the only one eligible to race post season races, unless injured.
That’s why you make it so a driver has to be in the top 25 in points to be able to win and in (A number high enough that not even Kyle Busch got there in 2015, he easily cleared top 30 and now there’s no limit). Sure it would hurt the Lajoie’s and Haley’s of the world but so what missing one race isn’t gonna kill you and if you have to miss 9 that sucks for you
Get rid of the series points declarations and all that red tape. Stop making so you need a PhD to understand the rules. All of this easily be streamlined
Oh I agree with you on most of it. I think the declaration thing is something that should be kept though. Only reason is I like people like Kyle Busch running in Truck and Xfinity races, but I don't want to see him having an outsized influence on the championship by taking points too many points and wins away from people that are running those series full time.
As a competitor and someone who probably doesn’t have interest in running the 500, this makes sense.
But the eyes that Larson brought to both sports is massive. Give him the damn waiver and move on.
In some ways I hope Larson doesn't get a waiver and channels that energy into having a 1998 Gordon style season just to throw shade on the mickey mouse championship format the series has.
And we get a split championship where the 5 wins the owners championship.
It would be hilarious if this is the year Denny finally wins the drivers championship, and it's got a huge asterisk next to it.
If Larson gets No Waiver he should just Call NASCAR's bluff and announce that at contracts end he is taking his ass to INDY to attempt a career there. I am sure INDY would welcome the additional viewers and cameras on their sport.
He's won on road courses, so I don't want to be confused with that one idiot from F1 who says he can't turn right.
But as an oval sprint car racer at heart, I don't think he'd want to run a road and street race majority schedule .
If anything, he can just go trophy hunting. He can run the NASCAR races he wants, run the oval races in Indycar, 24 hours of Daytona, full sprint car schedule.
I wouldn't mind seeing that tbh
Championships in NASCAR don't mean shit, he isn't anywhere near good enough on road courses to be a contender in IndyCar's championship (he's good, but not Alex Palou good), and he's always expressed interest in doing more dirt races. Seems like a win for every series, too. A little Larson goes a long way.
NASCAR really has kinda fucked themselves. In the past NASCAR has given out waivers for little to no good reason, fined drivers for “Actions detrimental to Stock Car Racing” and then manipulated the rules whenever they feel like it. But the second that someone does something that gets eyes on both NASCAR and Indycar NASCAR feels like the rules they made up and chose to ignore suddenly matter? If they don’t give Larson a waiver it’s a crock of shit. Everyone knows the 36 race rule is bullshit because nascar keeps giving out waivers to make it worthless.
Waivers shouldn’t be a big deal. The goal shouldn’t be to keep your regular drivers from competing. It should be (and seems to be in practice) a low barrier to keep people like SVG last year from showing up to 1 race and taking a playoff spot from a season regular.
I love how everybody just casually doesnt bring up the fact that Chase Elliott got a waiver after attempting murder on Denny Hamlin at Charlotte last year. Out of all scenarios, you would think that one would constitute no waiver.
He should be given a waiver but it should not mean that anyone can just go run some other random race and skip a NASCAR race when they want. I could definitely see some drivers wanting to skip Atlanta, Daytona, or Dega races.. and that cannot be allowed to happen frequently/easily.. nor do I think NASCAR would grant waivers in that scenario.
NASCAR has a provision in their rules that allows for a team to test if they have a significant driver running a Cup race for the first time.. someone like SVG or Kimi. They've got to have the same flexibility on waivers IMO. I really think they could look at it on a case-by-case basis. What Kyle did was great for NASCAR IMO. One of NASCAR's drivers went to the Indy 500 and was very competitive.
If there comes a time where we have like 3, 4, or 5 drivers attempting to run Indy then ok lets shut that down somehow. Until then, just give Larson the waiver and lets move on.
I am the most casual of fans. Larsen running the 500 has piqued my interest more than almost anything else this year. This did not hurt nascar, quite the opposite.
He’s the wrong messenger for a lot of you, but he’s right.
And no, I don’t think Elliott should’ve gotten his last year either.
It’s called being a professional.
Hate to break it to Joey, but Larson out ain't gonna cut it, with the way he's been running this year.
In all seriousness, I think this is just Joey's sincer opinion.
He's always been bothered by NASCAR not enforcing their rules or enforcing them consistently.
I've heard him say something like "I just want NASCAR to be consistent (when they apply rules differently for people)!!!" about 15 times over the years.
Is it really? The rules are you have to run every race. If something full on prevents you from running every race like an injury or suspension then it makes sense you get a waiver but this is literally he just wanted to do something else. Like at this point you should just change the rule because what could someone do that wouldn't earn them a waiver.
The argument could be made that Kyle Busch priortized another series, got hurt, missed a third of the races, received a waiver and won the 2015 Cup championship.
Right or wrong, waivers are also given to drivers suspended for actions on track. It's also obvious that Larson intended to run the 600. Not giving him a waiver would be a terrible look, and any crossover with Indycar is over. Would probably piss off Chevrolet, and Penske too for that matter.
I still agree with Larry Mac on Sirius the other day that he will get it, and it's not even a conversation.
Yes but 2, 3, or 4 wrongs don't make a right. Just because NASCAR was wrong before doesn't mean they should be wrong now .
I want him to get the waiver but by the letter of law he really shouldn't.
NASCAR needs to give him the waiver but then change the policy to eliminate the grey area.
Definitely - the majority of waivers they've granted have been pretty bogus. But changing now would be a really bad look.
Hopefully with the new agreement with the teams they can define what qualifies for a waiver better (and stop granting waivers for suspensions!).
It’s the fucking Indy 500. “It sets a bad precedent” crowd is full of shit. There is no other race on Earth a driver is skipping out on NASCAR for (in part because F1 would never allow a driver to compete at Monaco). Stop cooking up ridiculous hypotheticals like dirt races or entire other sports events in the future (Larson missed a dirt race in the series *he owns* for the Iowa tire test yesterday) and be honest. If you are upset with Kyle Larson, you are being a snob, plain and simple. You are being no better than the likes of the F1 community (obviously not all, but it’s the stereotype). And you would likely never have to make a choice half as difficult as the one Larson and Hendrick made on Sunday, Joey…
Might be an out of pocket opinion but the bigger issue here is the whole "win and you're in" playoff system. If we must have the playoffs, I think 2011-2013 had it right: Top 12 drivers instead of 16, with the top 10 in points making it and two wildcard spots of drivers with wins that are still in the top 20. That way, there's no need for waivers or any BS like that. If you're good enough to win and stay in the Top 20 in points, even if you miss a race or two, then so be it.
I just don't understand why a waiver discussion is even needed if you still finish in the cut off in points to qualify for the playoffs? I know a waiver is needed for those who get a win to qualify based on that requirement, without enough points to their name.
I don’t even understand why this is even a discussion. It brings so much to Nascar to have more eyes on the sport, and that is exactly what doubles always does. If it gets people talking about Nascar, and turning on Nascar, it’s a good thing. Anything that any of the racers do to positively effect the sport should be encouraged.
(Copied from a comment I made elsewhere)
One thing’s for sure, half of the population will think NASCAR are idiots, whether they grant the waiver (Why don’t they follow the rules?!? InCoNsIsTeNcY!!!1!!!), or don’t (they marketed the hell out of this and probably got a large swath of new viewers/fans from the IndyCar world, why aren’t they granting the waiver?!?).
My own personal opinion is that since it’s somewhat-uncharted territory, they should grant the waiver but do so with a very clear “we’re not going to grant one for something like this ever again, if you miss the NASCAR race because you raced somewhere else on the same day, tough luck, no waiver.”
NASCAR has really painted themselves in a corner huh? If they give him a waiver it goes against the spirit of their own rules, but if they dont give him a waiver it goes against the precedent they’ve set with past incidents
Tbh I feel like the win and in system that necessitates this whole waiver debacle is broken in the first place. I think NASCAR should just ditch it altogether, force everyone to point their way into the playoffs, and just make race wins be worth more points to incentivize racing for the win. That way, you prevent back markers from winning at a plate track and then sitting out the rest of the year.
He's right though. The way NASCAR should be handing out waivers is probably not the way that they were meant to be handed out. Suspensions? Non-racing related injuries? They no longer made judgements on how they gave out waivers based on the rule.
If they pull a full 180 here and say "You know what, we're no longer going to give out waivers against what the rules say" then that's an awful spot for Larson to be in. NASCAR would have pulled the rug right out from underneath Larson on this entire deal.
I think for 2025 NASCAR really needs to reevaluate how and when waivers are handed out, because something like this shouldn't even be a discussion. NASCAR should have a criteria in order to be eligible for a waiver and stick to it.
When they went from "we have a backup for the 500 if there is weather" to "Kyle is going to stay for the 500", that was probably right about when Hendrick got off the phone with Nascar confirming they could get a waiver.
Shouldn’t even be a discussion. Larson trying to do the double is a win win for both Indy Car and NASCAR. Weather screwed stuff up yes but if you’re going to leave out a driver for this then what’s the point? Chase and Bubba got suspended for on track actions detrimental to the sport yet still got a waiver. So to sit here and say Kyle shouldn’t get one is ridiculous.
Yes that’s true but I feel that having an injury is a valid reason for a waiver, compared to doing dumb shit and wrecking people on purpose and getting suspended. Should have added that but I was just trying to point out that if you give waivers for drivers that got pushed for their bad actions then why is the Larson thing even a discussion?
Joey's points are all fair and I didn't not feel like he introduced much personal bias, but it's worth remembering that any current cup driver that comments on the situation is also looking at potentially not having to race Kyle Larson for a Championship. Lmao.
I don't even know why this is up for discussion. He was allowed to run the Indy. It was promoted by NASCAR that he was running the Indy. I'm sure if there was risk of not being championship elligible, he wouldnt have run the thing.
Such a narc take. Larson attempting the double brought more attention to both the 500 and the 600 and was a win for everyone. Nothing is gained from making Larson ineligible for the playoffs as a result - not gaining points for the race is a completely reasonable consequence. Even insinuating that he put ‘Indycar’ ahead of NASCAR is asinine - objectively the Indy 500 is the more prestigious event and it’s not even close.
Obviously this race didn’t mean much to NASCAR since they called it early when they could’ve still ran it. Why should this race mean so much to Larson if nascar doesn’t care enough to run it all?
I do think this is inherently different than the injury/suspension waivers “handed out like candy” in the past.
Larson had a choice. He really did. I say this as a fan of his and being excited to see him do the double.
I understand he put all that effort in, but it’s not different than, say, a NASCAR driver who put all this effort in to quality for a PGA major. And due to weather, his round ended up crossing into a Saturday night long enough to not allow him to compete. It may attract attention to NASCAR, but it’s also not helping them to lose a star driver for a race.
There are priorities, and this is his job. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to not give him a waiver for making that decision.
By the letter of the law, Larson should not get a waiver. Yes, NASCAR has poorly applied their rules many times in the past, BUT 2 wrongs don't make a right.
But the law the sucks. The lawmakers of NASCAR really just need to change the rule.
Maybe you lose the win, and you're in privilege if you miss a race, but you can still get in on points or something. Sure, it means drivers having a great year can miss a race, and others can't. No different than a 1 seed in the NFL resting, it's starters the last week of the season.
Man this week sucks. We were supposed to be basking in the afterglow of the 600 and now we're talking about waivers and Fox screwing us out of 300 miles and SHR died.
Roger Penske behind the camera after seeing the Indycar ratings bump: 
I knew I couldn't be the only one thinking this. If Roger actually listens to this, I'm sure he's going to have a talk with Joey. He certainly wants Larson to come back next year, and if Larson does not get a waiver this year he's not going to.
A talk that will most likely end either in Joey shutting up or "resigning."
Joey is secretly playing 3D chess to get fired from his contract because the Penske cars suck right now. (Although now that the Indy 500, which is always priority #1 for Penske, is over, Team Penske may get serious trying to fix the Cup cars in time for the playoffs; they got to make it though).
Joey to RFK.
Just to get more rumors about how much Joey and Brad dislike each other?!
Blaney still has a top-10 car every week. Cindric and Burton are pulling that team down. They need better guys in those cars yo get better feedback for the team as a whole.
Yup. Blaney's bad days are like 15th on speed. He's just getting wrecked and/or pit crew fucking him the past few weeks.
That’s crazy talk, calm down.
Well no he can definitely go back to Indy next year but if weather is gonna delay it again then he needs to head to his main priority, NASCAR.
I’m tired boss
That's too damn bad. Now you keep reading these threads!
My fingers hurrrt
Well now your back is gonna hurt cuz you just pulled landscape duty!
Man's tryna eliminate his competition by technicality 🤣
Didn’t chase Elliot get a waver when nascar themselves suspended him for a race for intentionally crashing Denny? How is that ok but this isn’t?
I think that’s what makes this so clear cut for me that Larson deserves a waiver. Larson choosing to miss the Cup race aside, if you have someone that violated the rules to the point the sanctioning body decides to suspend you from a race and then still provides you a waiver, I think you pretty much are now obligated to provide just about anyone with a waiver.
I disagree. I think you have to have waivers for suspensions because otherwise you can't hand out a suspension without also handing out a championship disqualification and this actually ties NASCAR's hands quite a lot. Because I think you could argue that there's a lot of things that might be deserving of a suspension, but not from complete removal from the championship. But if there's no waiver then NASCAR will probably just never be able to suspend anyone (and they already don't hand out enough imo) because suddenly the punishment is so much bigger. Kyle is different because no one told Kyle he couldn't race. He just chose not to race.
Hot take: I'm not opposed to an issue dangerous/egregious enough to get a driver suspended also coming with the associated playoff ban.
That would have to be something really bad. Right rearing someone is bad enough for a one week suspension, but I wouldn't flat out ban someone from the playoff for it. It would basically have to be a criminal act or racing under the influence in my mind to justify a playoff ban.
Yep, it'd be nice for there to be serious consequences for serious incidents.
Couldn’t agree more. Draw a hard line on dangerous acts with legit consequences and they’ll stop happening 🤷♂️
Easy answer. You get your waiver, but your previous wins don’t count for the playoffs. You have to win another race to get in. This way it’s a much more impactful penalty but not a post season death sentence.
That's not actually that bad of an idea, though you could still get in on points only.
This is exactly right. Also, it wasn’t a decision made by the driver or team to not race. If he weren’t suspended, he would have raced, he just wasn’t allowed to. You have to give a waiver for that for the exact reason you mentioned… you otherwise can’t suspend someone without removing them from the championship race. Thats obviously a terrible situation to put your sport in.
Bc a penalty for something that happened in race shouldn’t affect one’s championship chances. That was never ever the intention of the waiver rule. Imagine getting sat out of an nfl game for a rule infringement and then you don’t get to play in playoff games or get a super bowl ring if your team wins it. That’s silly.
Agree or disagree but that's how the targeting rule in college football works if the penalty occurs in the second half of a game, the player could miss the first half of the next game which could be a playoff or championship game.
Right but they don't miss the whole fucking playoffs for targeting in week 3.
My point exactly. Skipping a race to race in another series is totally different than getting a waiver for regular injury or penalty.
The suspension was to cost him a race, not cost him a shot at the championship. That’s why. NASCAR isn’t trying to penalize someone more than they have to. Yes he intentionally wrecked him. Bubba intentionally wrecked Larson at Vegas prior to that. Busch wrecked hornaday back in 2011. The simple fact is if they hadn’t given a waiver and Chase made the playoffs, he’d be ineligible. Is that fair to penalize someone a shot at a championship? No it’s not. Same goes for any of the other instances and any other drivers. Issuing a penalty or punishment of any kind during the season is not meant to hurt the drivers chances long term or else the punishment would state that.
How about when Kyle Busch got a Waiver for missing **one third** of the season for an injury he got in an Xfinity series race?
Injured during a nascar sanctioned event. definitely worthy of a waver.
Am I the only one who thinks this shouldn’t even be a discussion? Waivers have been handed out like candy over the years. Are you really going to draw the line here? You want to make the championship favorite suddenly ineligible now? For what? “But but he skipped nascar!” Well that was not his intent ever. Plan was to be back in time for coke 600, he got put in a terrible position. His penalty is already there, that he didn’t get any points for the race and lost his points lead. He’s going to be a race behind everyone now for the rest of the year, In my opinion that’s a lot on its own. There is zero precedent or reason to make your best driver in the entire sport suddenly ineligible.
If NASCAR was wise, they would just grant Kyle the waiver. Don’t hurt your sport because someone wanted to try the double. I mean, they granted it for snowboarding once.
If they were truly wise they would ditch the rule altogether since they hand them out for anything
No, because the reason the rule exists in the first place is to prevent drivers from intentionally running one or a handful of races to get into the playoffs. They don't want a part-time driver eating up a spot. None of the waivers granted had that situation. It's pretty clear.
Then they should make it if you miss races and you don't point your way in to the top 16 in points then you're not playoff eligible. Would solve that problem immediately. If someone has a family emergency or something they should be able to miss the race without having to worry about getting a waiver, they just have to work hard when they get back.
They can deem them ineligible after they win
The rule can easily be improved without ruining the spirit by: A) Requiring a driver finish a certain position or higher in points (the Kyle Busch rule) B) Requiring a certain percentage of races to be attempted; you miss 2-4 races for "reasons" then that is what it is. C) Each win offsets a race not attempted. Kyle Larson misses 1 race and wins 1 race? He's got to point in. Misses one and wins 2? The second one counts. Misses 1 and didn't win? Ineligible. D) Declaring the championship about the Best Damn Stock Car Drivers and not caring about races ran. You win? You better find a ride for the final 10. You miss one of *those* races and we'll just assume you forfeited your eligibility, congrats to the dude who finished the season in 16th. E) Old Points System
Then make it 80% of races or some arbitrary number that isn’t 100%
Okay, so get rid of the waiver and also get rid of the "win and you're in" bs and that solves both issues. You get in on points and that's it. Eliminates the part time driver hypothetical altogether.
In the old days of nascar almost nobody ran every race. It wasn’t until the modern era that it became the norm. Who cares? If you win, you win.
>If NASCAR was wise We know they aren’t lol
In certain ways, sure, but they gave Chase a waiver when he missed a race because of a serious penalty. Kyle will obviously get one here (as he should).
Not to mention, the amount of media attention the double brings to NASCAR is massive. They absolutely benefitted from Larson running the double. It’s great for the sport, and should be encouraged. It’s not like he skipped to go fishing.
Why do people keep bringing up the snowboarding and suspensions? As I understand the purpose of the waiver, it is so nobody chooses not to race on a given weekend. Chase did not have a choice. KFB didn't have a choice. Larson had a choice. I'd honestly agree with everyone that NASCAR should grant it to avoid the controversy, but Larson doesn't deserve it. He point blank chose to race at a different race instead. I would liken this more to a guy having a baby and missing the start of a race. It's just not worth the bad press to stick to the rules.
I’m with you on the waiver. Just avoid the bad optics. I personally think it’s good drivers try the double and helps the interest in both IndyCar and NASCAR (I actually wish more IndyCar drivers tried it but winning the Indy 500 is just so monumental). It just sucks the waiver thing has come down to this.
> NASCAR should grant it to avoid the controversy No, they should grant it because it would be stupid not to. Publicity be damned.
Chase made a decision to get on a snowboard. Kyle made a decision to race in a feeder series race. I would liken this more to MLB/NFL crossover players who would finish the MLB season before playing on the gridiron. NFL wasn't going to keep those players out of the playoffs for making that decision.
Dude, he missed the race because of the weather. He had every intention of running the race. Unless you think he controls the weather.
He literally qualified the car
Right. He intended to run both races. Nascar knew full and well what his intentions were. Regardless, HMS apparently hasn't put in the waiver request. There's no question. Nascar is granting the waiver when they get the request. The speculation is just stupid at this point.
I do think he should get a waiver but he could have flew down and started the 600 once he saw the indycar race was going to be delayed
Sure, that's a choice, and I think he made the right choice to run the 500. You only get so many chances to attempt whet he did. I hope he tries again next year. He clearly was very competitive when other drivers were wrecking their shit. I also think his team suspected the weather would affect the Nascar race and he'd be good anyway. Most of us didn't expect the Charlotte race to be called when it did. And I don't think there was ever a question by the team that he'd get a waiver if worst came to worst. It's a reasonable assumption.
Even if he had gotten in the car he *still* missed the race. Justin would have gone down in the record books as the driver of the 5 car for the 2024 Coke 600.
Ok, and?
Having a child and racing for series you are in competition with is vastly different.
I quickly read that as “Don’t hurt your wife because she wanted to try a double…”
If you’re going to let your bias show, why wouldn’t you just bring up the suspension? I’m an Elliott fan and even I don’t agree he should have gotten one for that. Dude didn’t mean to get injured. He did mean to wreck Hamlin. If you’re going to be a hater, at least do it well.
Elliot got injured living his life. A waiver for that is fine. Elliot wrecked somebody and got suspended for it. A waiver for that is fine. That was one less race Elliot could have used to win or point his way into the championship and that was the racing punishment. Missing out on a paycheck was the monetary punishment. Suspensions happen all the time in other sports and those athletes come back to their teams and compete for the championship at the end of the day.
I don’t hate Chase Elliott. You look like a fool putting words in people’s mouth.
Kenseth got a waiver for 2020 after missing four races at the start of the season, the entire 2019 season, and more than half of the 2018 season. Why the fuck are we having this asinine argument about the integrity of the Playoffs? There is no integrity to Playoff waivers and there hasn't been for a long time.
Your point about 2020 is valid, but what the hell does 2019 and 2018 have to do with him getting a waiver for 2020?
Kenseth didn’t even choose that himself. Chase Elliott and Johnny Sauter choosing to be assholes and getting suspended, yet still getting waivers, is the best example of why this shouldn’t even be a debate. And it won’t be. Just feels like Nascar is just dragging this out for clicks and attention.
As of yesterday I believe Hendrick hasn’t applied for a waiver yet
I’m an Elliott fan and even I’ll 100% agree with you. I’ve borderline hated Larson in the past. I like him now, but just proving the point that I’m not some huge Larson fan. And even I don’t understand how this is even a discussion.
The longer they drag it out the more NASCAR is in the headlines and has potential to hit mainstream news. It’s all about the press man
I really thought that the eligibility was based on being declared for Cup points, and attempting to qualify for every race (which was in there in case an open team won a race, and then failed to qualify for a race if more than 40 cars showed up to the track as unlikely as both of those scenarios are). It may have been an old version of an old Championship format, but I do remember seeing an infographic once upon a time, but the way search algorithms work it’s long been buried because of everyone writing about having to start all 26 races. However if that is how the rule is still written, then he might not even require a waiver, since he did qualify for the race, or they are still seeking clarification before submitting it.
> he might not even require a waiver, since he did qualify for the race Denny Hamlin qualified for the 2014 Auto Club 400 at Fontana, but did not run the race due to a sinus infection. He needed a waiver to remain championship eligible.
It’s as clear as mud, but from the article from 2014, https://www.nascar.com/news-media/2014/01/30/nascar-announces-chase-for-the-sprint-cup-format-change/amp/ it is written like Denny didn’t even need a waiver. It could be misinterpreted by the journalist, or JGR filled it out and NASCAR said, you didn’t have to, but we will approve it since you sent it in.
This is correct. I do not like Kyle Larson, he is my least favorite driver, but to not give him a waiver would be absolutely stupid, considering what they've given waivers for before. What Kyle did wasn't dumb, and some people have gotten waivers for being dumb.
I can't stand KL but doing the double draws in interest to NASCAR not just from Indycar fans but normies for who the 500 is the only motorsport they watch all year. Growing the sport is a good thing and for as much as I dislike Larson, he needs to be commended for doing just that. AND this is besides how the waivers have been handed out like candy for things like injury's sustained in off track recreational accidents.
It would be an extremely odd (and foolish) hill for nascar to die on with the waiver rule. Like you said, waivers have been handed out seemingly no questions asked for different scenarios in the past. I have no issue with him getting the waiver especially since the cause of him missing the “600 miles” was out of his control. NASCAR has received a lot of publicity from Larson doing this so punishing him would not do the sport any favors in terms of growth. Kind of a “no fun league” scenario if they don’t grant it
Chase got a waiver for being suspended for right hooking somebody. Kyle doing something that brought NASCAR a ton of publicity should be a non-issue.
It's purely for discussion generation and clicks. There's no way under the sun NASCAR denying a waiver wouldn't backfire massively.
Im in the same boat. I have no idea how this is even a discussion. I’m not even a Larson fan, and in the past, was a straight up Larson hater. But that’s only because I’m an Elliott fan, so go figure. But the dude is undeniable. As you said, waivers have been handed out like candy. So how are you going to take a situation where a guy has single handedly put more eyeballs on two different series than they’ve had in years, and punish him for it? The amount of exposure that both NASCAR and IndyCar has gotten from this is immeasurable. A rising tide raises all ships. And you’re going to act like this is where we draw the line now? I could understand if there was a precedent set. If NASCAR didn’t hand waivers out often. But even I’ll be the first to admit Elliott shouldn’t have gotten one after the Hamlin incident. The injury? Sure. But intentionally wrecking someone and getting suspended? Absolutely not. (As much as I was okay with the move because I agree with Elliott’s assessment that Hamlin pulls that whole “I’m going to run you high and make you lift” move too much.” But you made that decision and got suspended. You should be punished for it. But he gets one anyway. Now we’re going to sit here and act like we have to draw a line in the sand with Larson for trying to do something that’s extremely positive for both sports? I just don’t get it. It’s not his fault it rained. It could be a once in a lifetime opportunity. Of course he stays. And the ENTIRE point that I think needs to be highlighted here is that Larson has *already* been penalized for the decision, because he received zero points this week. That’s a huge penalty in itself. Which is the point. Sometimes these types of things carry a severe enough penalty naturally. You don’t need to ruin the guy’s entire year for trying to do something great. What is that saying and teaching everyone? NASCAR doesn’t encourage its drivers giving themselves and the sport extra exposure? NASCAR doesn’t want arguably its greatest talent to show off his skills? They better not ever talk about any of Larson’s accolades again then. Don’t ever think about using the term “generational talent” ever again if that’s the case. Just absurd man.
> Well that was not his intent ever. At 3:00 PM eastern time on Sunday, that became his intent. He could have gotten on a plane and left Indy and made it to the 600 to start the race. He CHOSE not to do so.
Fix the points system and this never happens. No one in Indycar with a legit shot at a championship would skip the 500 to run the 600 If the start times were flipped because missing a race probably costs them a title. NASCAR's goofy ass playoffs allow for this choice to be made.
This is the most rational take. KFN winning in 2015 proves it.
Everyone wants the drivers’ unfiltered opinions until it’s Logano lol
Or Lajoie. Or Hamlin. Just the side effect of podcasting? Although the media at least loves Hamlin even if fans don't, they don't fawn on Joey like him. Oh look, Jenna took a shot at Joey for his opinion. [https://twitter.com/JennaFryer/status/1795812584538456079](https://twitter.com/JennaFryer/status/1795812584538456079)
That last comment just screams redditor energy with the whataboutisms and deflections to make their points seem better.
What a strange tweet lmao. A bigger thing occurring doesn't mean smaller things should just be pushed aside. If NASCAR can't put a little focus into a playoff waiver because a team is shutting down, maybe NASCAR needs some more competent people in charge. Also, the snarky comment at the end is unbelievably unprofessional but people won't care because it's a driver they don't like.
That's Jenna for you tbf
Yeah. To be fair, Jenna does tend to post snarky/frivolous comments on social media, versus pretty professional articles. Maybe she was trying to prove [to this guy](https://twitter.com/gomtuu359/status/1793797161768944117) she doesn't "fangirl" Joey?
Jenna Fryer and saying dumb things go together like lamb and tuna fish.
Who even is she and why is she important?
They want the drivers' opinions as long as they agree with them.
Every driver/crew chief/other person who knows more about the sport than the average redditor who says something the fans agree with is brave and we should listen to them and everyone who says something they disagree with is a NASCAR shill and toeing the company line
We *are* allowed to want drivers to express their actual opinions *and* disagree with them, you know.
They want these drivers to be authentic, until they are.
but they’ll be the first in line to suck him off when he does something wholesome
[Part 2](https://x.com/siriusxmnascar/status/1795785997999128666?s=46&t=9910iM_0g9ZZsCQYrNgf9w)
Not granting the waiver tells future drivers to not attempt the double. Drivers attempting the double is a huge publicity boost to both NASCAR and Indycar.
Bingo there it is folks. Nascar is in the entertainment business and they need eye balls on screens watching races. Getting people to watch the Indy 500 then the coke 600 is enough of a bump to warrant the waiver especially since Kyle notified nascar well in advance.
With everything else they have gave waivers for this would be a strange one not to.
Look, based on the rules that Nascar provides. No, he is not eligible. He didn't attempt the race, he didn't miss due to race related injury. But when you ignore the rules, waiver to someone who gets injured from another sport, during vacation time on the slopes, getting suspended ect Then you can't actually expect to enforce it now. You pass the waiver and alter the rules to fit what actually happens. Nascar likes to play open ended with their own rules and now it puts them in a position. They need to just change the rule. You cannot enforce it now at this point.
He's right...it can be black and white. Get rid of the playoffs and crown the champion via season-long points.
100% would instantly eliminate this problem. There's a reason nobody in F1 takes a race off to go do something else.
That's always been the answer. Dumbass gimmick.
Can we just go back to a season long points championship and be rid of this fake drama?
That's the smart answer. NASCAR wouldn't get caught dead being smart though.
Yeah, it's been 20 years, and my interest in the sport has decreased every single one. The playoffs are a joke and that's not how racing works or should work. It makes the "regular season" feel almost entirely worthless.
That's my biggest gripe with it. It's just not how racing is done.
I think what makes this tricky is Larson's decision to stay at Indy. But I also think HMS just needs to apply for a waiver, and Larson would get one. So it's kind of on HMS right now.
Exactly. As Joey said Kyle chose the Indy 500 as more important than the Coke 600 on the day. He chose another series than the one he is fighting for a championship and was leading the points in. I think the pro waiver people especially guys like Gluck get way too emotional arguing the positives of the double outweighing any consequences and Kyle deserves the waiver. In the weeks leading up every one from HMS to Arrow-McLaren said if weather becomes an issue then Kyle will focus on the Coke 600 and Tony Kanaan will drive the 17. Then they backed off that as the forecast got worse. My personal issue with this isn't that he stayed for Indy but that he stayed once it became obvious the 500 start time and full race meant he'd miss at least half of the 600. I understand those laps will be extremely beneficial to him being competitive next year but it doesn't sit right with me from a competition perspective for NASCAR.
if harrison burton, or some other driver below the top 25 or even top 30 in points, had lucked into a win at Talladega, and then chose to run Indy 500 instead of Coke 600 i think this conversation is very different.
I think an interesting added rule could be that you can get in on points without a waiver. So if Larson is still in the top 16 even after missing a race he should qualify. But if you're not granted a waiver you can't qualify through a win. That would also make NASCARs decision to not grant a waiver easier because they aren't full on barring someone from the playoffs by not granting.
This is a good idea. It prevents part time teams from taking playoff spots, which is nascars intention
He's right but because it's Logano people are acting like he's wrong. Give him the waiver because they've pissed all over the rule for years now.
I’m not an expert on the waiver rule. I don’t know what nascar will decide. But some of these smooth brain takes on here are ridiculous.
That's the problem with the playoffs. In a system where only points count, Kyle Larson would simply have one race with 0 points and would have to deal with that. He could make up for that one race with a good performance. It's important to remember that in the first three decades of NASCAR, only a few drivers competed in all races of a season and it did happen every now and then that a driver still won the championship. This waiver rule is unnecessary.
I do respect Mr. Logano's opinion here but let's not forget that this entire scenario of needing waivers is due to NASCAR running a Mickey Mouse championship format. Season long points where missing a race like this might make or break you will make a team think twice on the decision. I would still stay in Indy if I am Larson/Hendrick in that scenario.
He's right, but personally I'd keep my mouth shut about it. I hope Larson gets a waiver, because I have zero belief he realized what was actually gonna happen. Gotta be a miscommunication. But I can see where it makes NASCAR look bad, if they grant it and then deny some driver with less star power.
Shit we were discussing it before it happened. If we knew and he didn’t he needs some help.
There's a 100% chance that NASCAR gives Larson a waiver. Might as well lock and delete every thread that brings it up until it happens at this point. We are all wasting ur time .
Coming from the guy who’s team owner literally owns IndyCar lol
Roger intentionally delayed Indy so Larson would miss Charlotte and eliminate him from the playoffs. \*hands out tin foil hats and watches chaos ensue\*
Yeah Penske is playing 4D chess.
I fucking knew it, Roger has been seeding the clouds for weeks to make sure Larson only runs the 500
Roger used his super storm creator to make the rain /s
He hired Cobra to use their Weather Dominator
If the Indy 500 and coke 600 were scheduled for the same time and he just skipped NASCAR for IndyCar, I’d agree he shouldn’t get a waiver. But that was never the intention.
He chose the Indy 500 over the Coke 600. He had the chance to fly to Charolette to start once he knew the Indy 500 was going to be delayed for 4 hours.
To play devils advocate, that is exactly what he did. Due to rain, the races were scheduled at the same time (as far as his schedule allowed) and he picked the Indy 500 over the Coke 600.
Any driver that got injured not in a cup car chose those races over nascar. You can get hurt in a race car so if you cared about nascar you would make sure you couldn’t get injured in another series. Just because they were at the same time doesn’t mean other drivers didn’t make the same choice.
Intention in this case was Larson decided to choose the Indy 500. Kyle Larson has a full time career in the NASCAR Cup Series. The rule states a driver must compete in all 36 races to be eligible to run the Championship. Larson wasn't injured, Larson didn't get suspended for a race, Larson CHOOSE to race in the Indy 500.
Who cares? No really, who fucking cares?? The rule is there to prevent cherry picking. That's not what Larson is doing. The only reason you'd so blatantly defy the spirit of the rule is because you want to disqualify a competitor.
> The rule is there to prevent cherry picking. And is only necessary because the system is effectively a "win-and-in" system. Which is beyond stupid.
The waivers in general are stupid because the playoffs shouldn't exist in the first place. But there is zero chance he doesn't get one.
Joey makes some good points. People saying he doesn’t want that competition in the playoffs are trolls lol
It’s all just the Larson fans and Joey haters who are in denial that he’s right
Someone doesn't want to compete against Larson in the playoffs.
Someone needs to make sure they qualify for the playoffs.
Joey fan here, we might need that extra spot lol
I was mindblown when I saw he's sitting outside the top 16 right now, I just assumed he was chilling around that 10th-12th range like Blaney. Starting to think I'm gonna regret picking him to make the Championship 4 in my predictions pool lmao
He may not have to either way if Joey don’t grab a win soon.
He's jealous Larson started on the second row with legal gloves.
I’ve always assumed the point of the rule was really to make sure that something like SVG making the playoffs last year because he won the street race didn’t happen. That NASCAR didn’t want to leave open the possibility of a part time driver qualifying for the playoffs because they won one race. I never thought they were trying to be strict on obvious full time drivers missing one or maybe even a few races for whatever circumstances. Injuries should obviously qualify for a waiver. Suspensions feel weirder but I feel like if they were strict on no waivers for suspensions then they would just not suspend drivers when their actions merited a suspension. And in this instance where the intent was always to run the race and only weather screwed it up it seems obvious to grant the waiver. What Larson was doing was beneficial to NASCAR, to penalize him for it would be stupid.
Joey is spitting idgaf 😤
Maybe the waiver should be he has to qualify again so he would need to win or be in on points. In my opinion missing a race shouldn't ruin your chances but also the argument he didn't choose Indy over NASCAR is just B's and wrong he did.
Seems super simple to me. If you are good enough to beat everybody else and still make the playoffs while missing an entire race... You deserve to be in. That's it. End of discussion. (And people whining about this should drive faster)
If they don't grant a waiver nobody will ever attempt this again which will be bad for the sport
I wish they would get rid of the waiver rule all together. If a driver is good enough to make the playoffs without racing in a few races they deserve to make the playoffs.
I disagree slightly only because of the current rules. A win gets you in at this point. If I win the Daytona 500 and decide to skip a few races here and there because I'm already locked in...that's a bad look.
Well then a win shouldn't get you in. I've never understood points/championships being assigned to a driver. A driver is part of a team. The points/wins should be assigned to the car number. Driver that started most races at that team is the only one eligible to race post season races, unless injured.
That's how the Owner's Championship works. So there you go. Problem solved.
That’s why you make it so a driver has to be in the top 25 in points to be able to win and in (A number high enough that not even Kyle Busch got there in 2015, he easily cleared top 30 and now there’s no limit). Sure it would hurt the Lajoie’s and Haley’s of the world but so what missing one race isn’t gonna kill you and if you have to miss 9 that sucks for you Get rid of the series points declarations and all that red tape. Stop making so you need a PhD to understand the rules. All of this easily be streamlined
Oh I agree with you on most of it. I think the declaration thing is something that should be kept though. Only reason is I like people like Kyle Busch running in Truck and Xfinity races, but I don't want to see him having an outsized influence on the championship by taking points too many points and wins away from people that are running those series full time.
As a competitor and someone who probably doesn’t have interest in running the 500, this makes sense. But the eyes that Larson brought to both sports is massive. Give him the damn waiver and move on.
In some ways I hope Larson doesn't get a waiver and channels that energy into having a 1998 Gordon style season just to throw shade on the mickey mouse championship format the series has.
And we get a split championship where the 5 wins the owners championship. It would be hilarious if this is the year Denny finally wins the drivers championship, and it's got a huge asterisk next to it.
If Larson gets No Waiver he should just Call NASCAR's bluff and announce that at contracts end he is taking his ass to INDY to attempt a career there. I am sure INDY would welcome the additional viewers and cameras on their sport.
He's won on road courses, so I don't want to be confused with that one idiot from F1 who says he can't turn right. But as an oval sprint car racer at heart, I don't think he'd want to run a road and street race majority schedule . If anything, he can just go trophy hunting. He can run the NASCAR races he wants, run the oval races in Indycar, 24 hours of Daytona, full sprint car schedule.
I wouldn't mind seeing that tbh Championships in NASCAR don't mean shit, he isn't anywhere near good enough on road courses to be a contender in IndyCar's championship (he's good, but not Alex Palou good), and he's always expressed interest in doing more dirt races. Seems like a win for every series, too. A little Larson goes a long way.
NASCAR really has kinda fucked themselves. In the past NASCAR has given out waivers for little to no good reason, fined drivers for “Actions detrimental to Stock Car Racing” and then manipulated the rules whenever they feel like it. But the second that someone does something that gets eyes on both NASCAR and Indycar NASCAR feels like the rules they made up and chose to ignore suddenly matter? If they don’t give Larson a waiver it’s a crock of shit. Everyone knows the 36 race rule is bullshit because nascar keeps giving out waivers to make it worthless.
Waivers shouldn’t be a big deal. The goal shouldn’t be to keep your regular drivers from competing. It should be (and seems to be in practice) a low barrier to keep people like SVG last year from showing up to 1 race and taking a playoff spot from a season regular.
I love how everybody just casually doesnt bring up the fact that Chase Elliott got a waiver after attempting murder on Denny Hamlin at Charlotte last year. Out of all scenarios, you would think that one would constitute no waiver.
He should be given a waiver but it should not mean that anyone can just go run some other random race and skip a NASCAR race when they want. I could definitely see some drivers wanting to skip Atlanta, Daytona, or Dega races.. and that cannot be allowed to happen frequently/easily.. nor do I think NASCAR would grant waivers in that scenario. NASCAR has a provision in their rules that allows for a team to test if they have a significant driver running a Cup race for the first time.. someone like SVG or Kimi. They've got to have the same flexibility on waivers IMO. I really think they could look at it on a case-by-case basis. What Kyle did was great for NASCAR IMO. One of NASCAR's drivers went to the Indy 500 and was very competitive. If there comes a time where we have like 3, 4, or 5 drivers attempting to run Indy then ok lets shut that down somehow. Until then, just give Larson the waiver and lets move on.
Why not just have a rule that if you’re in the top 16 in points you are in, no matter if you miss a race or not?
I am the most casual of fans. Larsen running the 500 has piqued my interest more than almost anything else this year. This did not hurt nascar, quite the opposite.
The sport is losing viewers, charters and sponsorships…so let’s make sure one of the most popular drivers doesn’t make the playoffs?
He’s the wrong messenger for a lot of you, but he’s right. And no, I don’t think Elliott should’ve gotten his last year either. It’s called being a professional.
This is 100% Joey wanting one less guy to worry about in the points lmao
Hate to break it to Joey, but Larson out ain't gonna cut it, with the way he's been running this year. In all seriousness, I think this is just Joey's sincer opinion. He's always been bothered by NASCAR not enforcing their rules or enforcing them consistently. I've heard him say something like "I just want NASCAR to be consistent (when they apply rules differently for people)!!!" about 15 times over the years.
Is it really? The rules are you have to run every race. If something full on prevents you from running every race like an injury or suspension then it makes sense you get a waiver but this is literally he just wanted to do something else. Like at this point you should just change the rule because what could someone do that wouldn't earn them a waiver.
The argument could be made that Kyle Busch priortized another series, got hurt, missed a third of the races, received a waiver and won the 2015 Cup championship. Right or wrong, waivers are also given to drivers suspended for actions on track. It's also obvious that Larson intended to run the 600. Not giving him a waiver would be a terrible look, and any crossover with Indycar is over. Would probably piss off Chevrolet, and Penske too for that matter. I still agree with Larry Mac on Sirius the other day that he will get it, and it's not even a conversation.
Yes but 2, 3, or 4 wrongs don't make a right. Just because NASCAR was wrong before doesn't mean they should be wrong now . I want him to get the waiver but by the letter of law he really shouldn't. NASCAR needs to give him the waiver but then change the policy to eliminate the grey area.
Definitely - the majority of waivers they've granted have been pretty bogus. But changing now would be a really bad look. Hopefully with the new agreement with the teams they can define what qualifies for a waiver better (and stop granting waivers for suspensions!).
It’s the fucking Indy 500. “It sets a bad precedent” crowd is full of shit. There is no other race on Earth a driver is skipping out on NASCAR for (in part because F1 would never allow a driver to compete at Monaco). Stop cooking up ridiculous hypotheticals like dirt races or entire other sports events in the future (Larson missed a dirt race in the series *he owns* for the Iowa tire test yesterday) and be honest. If you are upset with Kyle Larson, you are being a snob, plain and simple. You are being no better than the likes of the F1 community (obviously not all, but it’s the stereotype). And you would likely never have to make a choice half as difficult as the one Larson and Hendrick made on Sunday, Joey…
Might be an out of pocket opinion but the bigger issue here is the whole "win and you're in" playoff system. If we must have the playoffs, I think 2011-2013 had it right: Top 12 drivers instead of 16, with the top 10 in points making it and two wildcard spots of drivers with wins that are still in the top 20. That way, there's no need for waivers or any BS like that. If you're good enough to win and stay in the Top 20 in points, even if you miss a race or two, then so be it.
I just don't understand why a waiver discussion is even needed if you still finish in the cut off in points to qualify for the playoffs? I know a waiver is needed for those who get a win to qualify based on that requirement, without enough points to their name.
I don’t even understand why this is even a discussion. It brings so much to Nascar to have more eyes on the sport, and that is exactly what doubles always does. If it gets people talking about Nascar, and turning on Nascar, it’s a good thing. Anything that any of the racers do to positively effect the sport should be encouraged.
(Copied from a comment I made elsewhere) One thing’s for sure, half of the population will think NASCAR are idiots, whether they grant the waiver (Why don’t they follow the rules?!? InCoNsIsTeNcY!!!1!!!), or don’t (they marketed the hell out of this and probably got a large swath of new viewers/fans from the IndyCar world, why aren’t they granting the waiver?!?). My own personal opinion is that since it’s somewhat-uncharted territory, they should grant the waiver but do so with a very clear “we’re not going to grant one for something like this ever again, if you miss the NASCAR race because you raced somewhere else on the same day, tough luck, no waiver.”
NASCAR has really painted themselves in a corner huh? If they give him a waiver it goes against the spirit of their own rules, but if they dont give him a waiver it goes against the precedent they’ve set with past incidents
Pretty, pretty grey.
Tbh I feel like the win and in system that necessitates this whole waiver debacle is broken in the first place. I think NASCAR should just ditch it altogether, force everyone to point their way into the playoffs, and just make race wins be worth more points to incentivize racing for the win. That way, you prevent back markers from winning at a plate track and then sitting out the rest of the year.
All these wavier things need to end. Those are the most stupid things I have ever heard! just get rid of the wavier and let them be.
Just get rid of the rule.
He's right though. The way NASCAR should be handing out waivers is probably not the way that they were meant to be handed out. Suspensions? Non-racing related injuries? They no longer made judgements on how they gave out waivers based on the rule. If they pull a full 180 here and say "You know what, we're no longer going to give out waivers against what the rules say" then that's an awful spot for Larson to be in. NASCAR would have pulled the rug right out from underneath Larson on this entire deal. I think for 2025 NASCAR really needs to reevaluate how and when waivers are handed out, because something like this shouldn't even be a discussion. NASCAR should have a criteria in order to be eligible for a waiver and stick to it.
When they went from "we have a backup for the 500 if there is weather" to "Kyle is going to stay for the 500", that was probably right about when Hendrick got off the phone with Nascar confirming they could get a waiver.
Shouldn’t even be a discussion. Larson trying to do the double is a win win for both Indy Car and NASCAR. Weather screwed stuff up yes but if you’re going to leave out a driver for this then what’s the point? Chase and Bubba got suspended for on track actions detrimental to the sport yet still got a waiver. So to sit here and say Kyle shouldn’t get one is ridiculous.
Chase got two waivers in one year.. first for the races missed due to his injury while snowboarding then for being suspended.
Yes that’s true but I feel that having an injury is a valid reason for a waiver, compared to doing dumb shit and wrecking people on purpose and getting suspended. Should have added that but I was just trying to point out that if you give waivers for drivers that got pushed for their bad actions then why is the Larson thing even a discussion?
Larson better get a fucking waiver or NASCAR and this sport aren't serious.
If Larson doesn’t get a waiver I’d have to laugh if he just said “ok fine I’ll retire after the season take the waiver and shove it up your ass”
The plus side if he doesn't get a waiver is he won't get screwed by having a superspeedway in both the first 2 rounds of the playoffs this year.
"What if in the new charter agreement there's a 3 car limit per team?" *Monkey paw curls*
Joey's points are all fair and I didn't not feel like he introduced much personal bias, but it's worth remembering that any current cup driver that comments on the situation is also looking at potentially not having to race Kyle Larson for a Championship. Lmao.
I don't even know why this is up for discussion. He was allowed to run the Indy. It was promoted by NASCAR that he was running the Indy. I'm sure if there was risk of not being championship elligible, he wouldnt have run the thing.
Such a narc take. Larson attempting the double brought more attention to both the 500 and the 600 and was a win for everyone. Nothing is gained from making Larson ineligible for the playoffs as a result - not gaining points for the race is a completely reasonable consequence. Even insinuating that he put ‘Indycar’ ahead of NASCAR is asinine - objectively the Indy 500 is the more prestigious event and it’s not even close.
Obviously this race didn’t mean much to NASCAR since they called it early when they could’ve still ran it. Why should this race mean so much to Larson if nascar doesn’t care enough to run it all?
The irony is Blaney campaigning to run it next year, sure the tune would be different if it was a teammate.
I do think this is inherently different than the injury/suspension waivers “handed out like candy” in the past. Larson had a choice. He really did. I say this as a fan of his and being excited to see him do the double. I understand he put all that effort in, but it’s not different than, say, a NASCAR driver who put all this effort in to quality for a PGA major. And due to weather, his round ended up crossing into a Saturday night long enough to not allow him to compete. It may attract attention to NASCAR, but it’s also not helping them to lose a star driver for a race. There are priorities, and this is his job. I don’t think it’s ridiculous to not give him a waiver for making that decision.
By the letter of the law, Larson should not get a waiver. Yes, NASCAR has poorly applied their rules many times in the past, BUT 2 wrongs don't make a right. But the law the sucks. The lawmakers of NASCAR really just need to change the rule. Maybe you lose the win, and you're in privilege if you miss a race, but you can still get in on points or something. Sure, it means drivers having a great year can miss a race, and others can't. No different than a 1 seed in the NFL resting, it's starters the last week of the season.
Man this week sucks. We were supposed to be basking in the afterglow of the 600 and now we're talking about waivers and Fox screwing us out of 300 miles and SHR died.
Obviously Logano would prefer not to have to race the 5 in the playoffs