From the moment ATF took over approving NFA items, they were an exercise in malicious competence. There's zero reason any approval needs to take months and months, none. Other than, to discourage people from doing it because of the wait.
NICS check takes a couple minutes and I can walk away with my gun if I have a ccw.
ATF takes 9 months to give me approval for a 6” less barrel?
I call bullshit
That's because the FBI wants to make sure you're not breaking any laws. ATF wants to make sure you're inconvenienced as much as possible to dissuade you from doing it again.
Tbh the wait and $200 stamp is very dissuading.
With 700k in 2022 and 1 million stamps in 2023, there ain’t a chance the feds give up 9 digits of tax revenue.
We can only hope the Supreme Court pulls through tbh
Yup it's win-win for them. They either continue to get lots of money if they stay popular all while taking their sweet time or they persuade people to stop doing it and they lose the money but can then call it "dangerous and unusual".
They're going to call them "dangerous and unusual" irrelevant of the amount of ownership. This is the government we're talking about. They're always disingenuous when it comes to trying to disarm citizens.
Guess they are too busy managing the sheer amount of paperwork they require. Literally so much, an engineer told them they were compromising the integrity of the HQ structure and had thousands of documents put into shipping containers in a parking lot to resolve. I’m sure when spring comes it’ll get warm enough to trek out there and pull a few forms 😅
From some of the people I’ve talked to the reason for long approval times is the nfa office has like 5 full time agents and any extra a put their on nfa duty for 3 months at a time and they all hate their life. Idk if this is true or not but it would make sense why you see the same few names approving everything.
How many humans they have processing forms?
How does that compare to the number of employees a gun store would have processing a million sales a year?
And these guys have no profit motive. Their only risk is not 100% following process.
I suspect the biggest slowdown is reading all the trust docs looking for things.
I have no idea why they include a digital signature block on an eform if it needs to be printed, signed in ink and scanned back in. Defeats the entire purpose. I had two denied by two separate examiners that said that though.
I digitally signed it, the signature block is enabled for digital signatures in Adobe. I’ve also done it where I used the blue signature feature that looks like a hand drawn signature. Both denied.
I didn’t use either of those. I used a token authenticated digital signature like the example the examiner used above and it was denied.
Edit: the denial specifically stated it needed to be a “wet ink” signature and that digital signatures were not allowed
I just realized my response was poorly written. I have a hand written signature saved in my signature/pdf editing app. It’s all done digitally, rather than printing, scanning, etc. no issues here
Yeah, that isn't allowed. You can't use a saved version of your signature that is just inserted. Of course, they'd have to take the time to compare forms to notice it, but it is officially not allowed.
Was it the kind of signature that you typed in and it used a system font, or did you draw it with your mouse arrow? If you draw your signature with your mouse (or finger in a touch screen device) they accept it. When you just type in your name using the keyboard and it applies a system font, that’s what gets rejected. I’ve digitally drawn my signature for 5 forms and they were all approved. All different examiners too.
I used an actual digital signature, which is what the examiner used in the above example. It uses an authentication token to verify the signature which is the entire point of a digital signature block.
Well.. fed digital signatures are tied to our id and require a pin to sign. So there’s no way to really fake sign it without the physical Id and pin. Granted I’ve never seen a signature like this one from a federal Id because ours are always first and last name with the watermark, then signed date on the right side. So this is uncharted territory
They'll just treat it like every other time they made a mistake with their own rules and decide it's gun owners and the industry's problem and not theirs.
So, WE must sign a 5320.23 RPQ form with a "wet" signature or else it will get rejected, but ATF can use digital signatures? Amazing. Rules for thee but not for me.
Did my eForm1 all online complete with digital signature. Approved in 3-4 months.
(…amnesty form1 if that makes a diff!) 🤷♂️
-edit-
Correction,.. all online *except* the fingerprints. Noplace local for me to do it electronically so had to go to local PD and get the actual cards inked! I forgot that part! 🤣🤦♂️
>Noplace local for me to do it electronically so had to go to local PD and get the actual cards inked!
No need to find a local place. Go here and use the fingerprint card conversation service so you'll have the EFTs for online applications! :)
[https://eftcreator.com/](https://eftcreator.com/)
Was it the kind of signature that you typed in and it used a system font, or did you draw it with your mouse arrow? If you draw your signature with your mouse (or finger in a touch screen device) they accept it. When you just type in your name using the keyboard and it applies a system font, that’s what gets rejected.
I’ve digitally drawn my signature for 5 forms and they were all approved. All different examiners too.
The problem here is that Adobe and others still see this as an embedded image file. It’s pretty easy to detect those and I’m pretty sure they reject based on that fact alone.
That’s crazy. Next time just try drawing it in Adobe (don’t select the type option). I’ve done that and all approved. I think you have to draw it right then and there and not upload an image of a prior signature because drawing it right then and there it triggers that it was signed at that time and not an old signature that was uploaded in. So draw a new one each time and don’t use a saved drawing. Idk just guessing from what I’ve seen from others
Yes, that's why I put "wet" in quotes, to mean a hand-drawn signature vs. an Adobe digital signature stamp or typed cursive font. Seems like the bottom line is that it must look like you actually drew your signature on the form.
Well, you’re correct does this appear to be in their handwriting? What kind of paper trail audit do they have on this? What kind of recourse do you as an American citizen have if you want to have due process in transparency?
Well I emailed my contact at the ATF. They got back in less than 10 minutes, and they were also surprised that the .pdf sent back doesn't include the name of the signing official.
If I had to guess there is a bug / glitch in their website (just my .02 cents)
If I had to guess they will fix this and it's considered a bug in the eforms page.
I don’t think this is a bug… I’m going to assume they don’t sign within eforms because Adobe doesn’t really allow feds to sign digitally online like that. I’ve never seen a fed signature not print out a first/last name, watermark, and signed date.
That’s what normally occurs. E sign and upload the final doc. Our agency finally went e sign for a good bit of stuff but the interface is still severely lacking on the participant side
Very odd. I saw it and immediately starting going through this subreddit to see if anyone else got the same. I started getting worried that they may have screwed up signing my form.
They're never going to streamline the process, regardless of how much sense it makes. They want it to be an encumbrance on the public's ability to get NFA items.
I send a little prayer up every night that the NFA will get disbanded altogether lol. Think about how many people end up dying while waiting on Form 4s 🪦🙏
This actually makes sense.
Especially for people who have already eForm'ed before and have submitted prints on file and should have a 1:1 match in NICS.
Typical government not following their own rules.
This signature is not attributable to an individual, let alone in their handwriting.
As someone who works in a regulated industry, the FDA would have my ass in a sling for signing something like this.
Standard for GMP documentation is that it has to be directly attributable, meaning an auditor has to be able to look at the signature and immediately know who in the organization signed for it.
Any third party record/database that needs to be referenced to ultimately attribute the signature is subject to possible manipulation and doesn't count.
If the metadata is inseparable from the original record I imagine it would be fine. But this doesn't look like it has any metadata, it doesn't even have a serial number.
> Only if its a scanned version of your wet signature.
That is the exact opposite of what is allowed. You cannot use a saved/scanned version of your signature that you digitally insert. You CAN use a digital signature block where you sign with a stylus or mouse.
Like I've said elsewhere, they'd have to care and compare multiple submissions to determine if you're using a saved signature. It is not allowed officially.
I see a lot of people saying this but both eForm1 and eForm4s done through silencershop are done with docusigning from a computer or mobile device? Is there a difference?
That’s what I was asking. I believed you, just wasn’t sure why it was the case. Did a little research and it looks like it may be because DocuSign complies with the definition of an electronic signature under the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce (ESIGN) Act and the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (UETA) and can be used as a legal signature, while simply digitally drawing out your signature and copying and pasting it in Word/Adobe or similar is not. Apparently there is a feature to do a legal eSignature in Adobe Acrobat though (don’t know much about it tbh), but maybe the ATF only specifically accepts eSignatures done through DocuSign, or just from SilencerShop in general for some reason?
The 3 or 4 signatures on my last eForms were done through DocuSign, the RP questionnaire for my trust was done with my finger on the SilencerShop kiosk itself if I remember correctly? If it wasn’t that I do for sure remember signing my name extremely crudely for something when I did my fingerprints and all that a while back. Either way, I have never signed anything at all in physical ink.
How tf are we getting such short approvals meanwhile some of us are still waiting on amnesty forms and form 4s from fuckin april???? The fucking nfa makes no sense I swear like what's the point of having a stack if u never touch the guys at the bottom of it
Eh I only did it for the free stamp tbh. I wanted to sbr that particular rifle anyways I just didn't wanna pay the $200. It wasn't so much about complying as using and abusing the system for my gain
Amnesty forms are on pause with the Nationwide Injunction from Britto v. ATF. Britto v. ATF, Mock v. Garland, Texas Gun Rights v. ATF, and State of Texas v. ATF have just been combined into a single case in the 5th Circuit around Dec 22nd
You bring up an interesting point. With it being the new year, I'm wondering if there's another reason behind this beyond just not being able to email them.
Over the last 6-10 months we've been seeing wild variations in wait times.
I think they're making a real effort to get the averages lower...
Random sub-100 day approvals are kinda proof of that...
I know we don't like to praise the aft but, to me, it seems like they are making an actual effort to process stuff quicker
I guess I’m lost on this. Prior to E-Forms all my forms had my signature in ink. Post E-Forms, all my forms were signed digitally, when filed using E-Forms.
My Form 20’s, a non E-Forms process, required a signature, I did so using a graphics file created from my signature and added it to the PDF.
As far as the complaints that we have to do a wet signature, it just has not been my experience at all nor has it been the experience of the people I rub shoulders with.
> As far as the complaints that we have to do a wet signature, it just has not been my experience at all nor has it been the experience of the people I rub shoulders with.
Officially, it absolutely has to be a LIVE signature, either ink or digital. Using a saved digital version of your signature is not allowed. However, they would have to take the time to compare all of your forms to determine if you're using a saved file signature, so it isn't worth their time.
Interesting. We use digital signatures at my workplace but it puts our actual name and email address along with the timestamp. Not just generic credentials. Seems sketchy
Just wondering. JUST WONDERING.. how much a rubber stamp like that would cost some Red, White and Blue, constitution loving 2nd amendment believers, say if someone wanted one of their very own?
Why can't we just pay the stupid ass tax at the store? It's a regular nics check like a firearm right? We just turn in the photo and finger prints to the gun shop and pay the 200 dumbass tax?.?.?
I just got my UPIN (never had a delay but I was hopeful it would speed things up).
Got mine back in less than a week if you count the fact that they were closed 1/1/24
https://preview.redd.it/mt9idm0vhnac1.png?width=181&format=png&auto=webp&s=26409d72e9d5884c7c513a89b13eca289b9140b5
Everyone is different, but perhaps a UPIN helped?
No - the upin is part of the form 1 / form 4 and can’t be added after submission… only during.
Your best bet to to email your representative and the nics email here - https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/s/4IDbycylmX
If you have any other questions please let me know.
The real explanation: that random text is a bunch of fields for a digital certificate that was used to sign the form. But it doesn't look like a real signature even by technology standards
So still looks like they need to "hand" sign it by manually digitally signing it in the PDF via Adobe. This is still probably faster than ink signing and scanning it.
What is interesting is there is zero information on who signed it. Usually digital certificates are associated with a specific user as part of PIV/CAC issuance. That it is a [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) is weird.
Could be that they're contracting "examiners" to help with the backlog. They're not official ATF employees, but are given the same authority until the length of contract is reached.
How the heck did they put Active Directory configuration in there LOL. My assumption is that they use an automated tool that puts the ATF officials name under the form. Probably takes their First and Last name from AD. Someone fucked up big time I’d think
Anyone else notice that the Adobe version in the digital signature is just the most recent patch... Not a special version they say they operate off from that doesn't have a search function? Meaning their "Not a registry" database that isn't a registry because they are allegedly use a special version without search functions, would then be a registry because they infact have Adobe with search function intact.
Digital signature. The government has gone over to using CAC (Govt ID card with digital credentials). These are used to log on to the work PC, read email, encrypt emails, log on to government restricted web sites and digitally sign documents.
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They were tired of getting emailed and finally got smart. Haha.
ATF and smart in one sentence….I don’t know about that.
They just invented malicious competence.
From the moment ATF took over approving NFA items, they were an exercise in malicious competence. There's zero reason any approval needs to take months and months, none. Other than, to discourage people from doing it because of the wait.
NICS check takes a couple minutes and I can walk away with my gun if I have a ccw. ATF takes 9 months to give me approval for a 6” less barrel? I call bullshit
That's because the FBI wants to make sure you're not breaking any laws. ATF wants to make sure you're inconvenienced as much as possible to dissuade you from doing it again.
Tbh the wait and $200 stamp is very dissuading. With 700k in 2022 and 1 million stamps in 2023, there ain’t a chance the feds give up 9 digits of tax revenue. We can only hope the Supreme Court pulls through tbh
Yup it's win-win for them. They either continue to get lots of money if they stay popular all while taking their sweet time or they persuade people to stop doing it and they lose the money but can then call it "dangerous and unusual".
They're going to call them "dangerous and unusual" irrelevant of the amount of ownership. This is the government we're talking about. They're always disingenuous when it comes to trying to disarm citizens.
Guess they are too busy managing the sheer amount of paperwork they require. Literally so much, an engineer told them they were compromising the integrity of the HQ structure and had thousands of documents put into shipping containers in a parking lot to resolve. I’m sure when spring comes it’ll get warm enough to trek out there and pull a few forms 😅
From some of the people I’ve talked to the reason for long approval times is the nfa office has like 5 full time agents and any extra a put their on nfa duty for 3 months at a time and they all hate their life. Idk if this is true or not but it would make sense why you see the same few names approving everything.
Shit make me one 😂
Honestly, I’d be busting my ass approving people
I’d be the next Carol Ripley
I think even she is getting fed up with the amount of people contacting her
How many humans they have processing forms? How does that compare to the number of employees a gun store would have processing a million sales a year? And these guys have no profit motive. Their only risk is not 100% following process. I suspect the biggest slowdown is reading all the trust docs looking for things.
21
The part I don’t get is why an F1 for the same type of item takes days but an F4 for a functionally identical item takes months.
Lazy. The word we're looking for here is lazy.
People are selectively smart sometimes
Must have been a new hire. Haven’t had time to train them on how to screw us yet.
ATF is not smart. That's one sentence. You don't know about that?
Beat me to it lol
*smartER….theyre still all dumb fks.
They got sick of seeing Reddit post about carol Ripley the one who blesses us
Carol Ripley. Employee of the month…every month.
Don't forget about Jessica <3
She's awesome and she's moved up to bigger things in the ATF
The name…. What a legend
That's it in a nutshell
She’s the queen
Carol the GOAT
That’s bullshit! They denied my Form 1 because I digitally signed the fucking digital signature block and said it needs to be ink.
I'm laughing with you, not at you... wait... you're not laughing. Nevermind. Seriously though, it's ridiculous.
Da fuck. I digitally signed mine (with a copy Of actual hand written signature) and had no issues
I have no idea why they include a digital signature block on an eform if it needs to be printed, signed in ink and scanned back in. Defeats the entire purpose. I had two denied by two separate examiners that said that though.
Did you type your name, or draw it?
I digitally signed it, the signature block is enabled for digital signatures in Adobe. I’ve also done it where I used the blue signature feature that looks like a hand drawn signature. Both denied.
The live signature using the Adobe signature block is perfectly fine, typing one that looks like handwriting is not.
I didn’t use either of those. I used a token authenticated digital signature like the example the examiner used above and it was denied. Edit: the denial specifically stated it needed to be a “wet ink” signature and that digital signatures were not allowed
Ah, yeah, the token signatures are not allowed. Digital live signatures are 100% allowed.
Yeah that makes sense, but the examiner used one which is frustrating.
I'm pretty sure this is a misconfiguration. There's no way they can go to these. They are way too easily copied.
>(with a copy Of actual hand written signature) This is also not allowed, just FYI. You must live sign each one, even if it is digital.
I just realized my response was poorly written. I have a hand written signature saved in my signature/pdf editing app. It’s all done digitally, rather than printing, scanning, etc. no issues here
Yeah, that isn't allowed. You can't use a saved version of your signature that is just inserted. Of course, they'd have to take the time to compare forms to notice it, but it is officially not allowed.
Another silly rule. It’s the same as doing it the long way haha
I don't disagree that it's stupid, but it is the rule. I don't even think it would stand up to a court challenge.
Was it the kind of signature that you typed in and it used a system font, or did you draw it with your mouse arrow? If you draw your signature with your mouse (or finger in a touch screen device) they accept it. When you just type in your name using the keyboard and it applies a system font, that’s what gets rejected. I’ve digitally drawn my signature for 5 forms and they were all approved. All different examiners too.
I used an actual digital signature, which is what the examiner used in the above example. It uses an authentication token to verify the signature which is the entire point of a digital signature block.
You can still do that with a drawn signature which is what they want.
Yeah I get that but the examiner in this example signed it the same way I did.
That’s because their rules don’t apply to them FUCK THE ATF
Well.. fed digital signatures are tied to our id and require a pin to sign. So there’s no way to really fake sign it without the physical Id and pin. Granted I’ve never seen a signature like this one from a federal Id because ours are always first and last name with the watermark, then signed date on the right side. So this is uncharted territory
Just tell them to print it out
Seems kind of sketchy on their part. Probably breaking their own rules in some way - but heck, they will just re-write them.
What? It's all made up and the points don't matter?
https://preview.redd.it/9hs0jqtjjmac1.jpeg?width=550&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45888be6f56107c6aa632f25cafd67a364acb2ed
That’s unpossible
INCONMISSIBLE!
They'll just treat it like every other time they made a mistake with their own rules and decide it's gun owners and the industry's problem and not theirs.
So, WE must sign a 5320.23 RPQ form with a "wet" signature or else it will get rejected, but ATF can use digital signatures? Amazing. Rules for thee but not for me.
this is not true. a wet signature is not required, only a signature that’s in your handwriting.
I had a digitalized copy of my signature and I had my forms rejected. Last year.
Did my eForm1 all online complete with digital signature. Approved in 3-4 months. (…amnesty form1 if that makes a diff!) 🤷♂️ -edit- Correction,.. all online *except* the fingerprints. Noplace local for me to do it electronically so had to go to local PD and get the actual cards inked! I forgot that part! 🤣🤦♂️
Just shows their inconsistency I guess. Mine were the same.
>Noplace local for me to do it electronically so had to go to local PD and get the actual cards inked! No need to find a local place. Go here and use the fingerprint card conversation service so you'll have the EFTs for online applications! :) [https://eftcreator.com/](https://eftcreator.com/)
Same. Mine were rejected….but my brother did a digital signature and his were approved!
Was it the kind of signature that you typed in and it used a system font, or did you draw it with your mouse arrow? If you draw your signature with your mouse (or finger in a touch screen device) they accept it. When you just type in your name using the keyboard and it applies a system font, that’s what gets rejected. I’ve digitally drawn my signature for 5 forms and they were all approved. All different examiners too.
I wrote it on a piece of paper, took a picture, and photoshopped it so the background was transparent. So it could be put on paper and look written.
The problem here is that Adobe and others still see this as an embedded image file. It’s pretty easy to detect those and I’m pretty sure they reject based on that fact alone.
Print -> Microsoft print to PDF. Flattens everything.
That’s crazy. Next time just try drawing it in Adobe (don’t select the type option). I’ve done that and all approved. I think you have to draw it right then and there and not upload an image of a prior signature because drawing it right then and there it triggers that it was signed at that time and not an old signature that was uploaded in. So draw a new one each time and don’t use a saved drawing. Idk just guessing from what I’ve seen from others
I just said fuck it and print the thing, sign, and scan it.
Mine were on the RPQ. I had it saved with the signature on it and uploaded that.
It cannot be a SAVED signature either. It must be a LIVE signature, digital or not.
Depends on what the examiner had for lunch. I've had one rejected and another approved two weeks later, done the exact same way and everything.
Yes, that's why I put "wet" in quotes, to mean a hand-drawn signature vs. an Adobe digital signature stamp or typed cursive font. Seems like the bottom line is that it must look like you actually drew your signature on the form.
Well, you’re correct does this appear to be in their handwriting? What kind of paper trail audit do they have on this? What kind of recourse do you as an American citizen have if you want to have due process in transparency?
I think that may be the idea here... You can hold an authorized NFA representative responsible now. 🤣😂
I’ve never done a wet signature, if you used a typed font via docusign they will reject it
Well I emailed my contact at the ATF. They got back in less than 10 minutes, and they were also surprised that the .pdf sent back doesn't include the name of the signing official. If I had to guess there is a bug / glitch in their website (just my .02 cents) If I had to guess they will fix this and it's considered a bug in the eforms page.
Interesting, thanks for posting. Keep us updated if you hear anything else!
I don’t think this is a bug… I’m going to assume they don’t sign within eforms because Adobe doesn’t really allow feds to sign digitally online like that. I’ve never seen a fed signature not print out a first/last name, watermark, and signed date.
They can digitally sign the PDF and upload. Or ATF could enter the 21st Century and use something like DocuSign.
That’s what normally occurs. E sign and upload the final doc. Our agency finally went e sign for a good bit of stuff but the interface is still severely lacking on the participant side
That's honestly what I figured. Some kind of bug, just thought it was interesting. Either way, cool, thanks for the info!
Ah yes, I love **AUTHORIZED NFA DIVISION OFFICIAL**
I’m going to email them about a stamp. I think it’s [email protected].
That's a good email to use! If they ask for another set if fingerprints, be sure to get ALL the details possible... of your 11th finger.
If the feds want to see that they can at least buy me dinner first.
I can never get a good print with mine. I think it's because of the curve.
Don’t forget to CC [email protected] for extra visibility
Who ever named their kid “Authorized NFA Division Official” really fucking hated them
But man they sure picked the right job for their name
Knew it was only a matter of time.
I was just about to ask about this.
Interesting. Did you get an approval with "Authorized NFA Division official" signature?
Yeah. Approved last night. Looks exactly the same as OP's picture.
So weird. I wonder if this is going to be the new thing moving forward.
Very odd. I saw it and immediately starting going through this subreddit to see if anyone else got the same. I started getting worried that they may have screwed up signing my form.
I mean... if this is a permanent change then the lease they could have done is sent out a mass email to the eForms users.
Looks like they are sharing a PKI certificate.
If only we could use it :’(
Would be nice if we could sign electronically with a PKI cert.
Would be awesome if you had PKI you'd be fast tracked haha. There's no reason I got my TS/SCI faster than getting a suppressor.
Yeah they should have a program like TSA pre check where you get pre-approved and they just do an annual criminal check.
They're never going to streamline the process, regardless of how much sense it makes. They want it to be an encumbrance on the public's ability to get NFA items.
I know, but i can still wish can't I?
I send a little prayer up every night that the NFA will get disbanded altogether lol. Think about how many people end up dying while waiting on Form 4s 🪦🙏
This actually makes sense. Especially for people who have already eForm'ed before and have submitted prints on file and should have a 1:1 match in NICS.
In direct violation of DoD policy and NIST…
But they are DOJ not DoD.
DOJ still has to implement FISMA and RMF (DODI 8510.01)
But they don't care about DoD policy. DOj probably has a similar policy.
Typical government not following their own rules. This signature is not attributable to an individual, let alone in their handwriting. As someone who works in a regulated industry, the FDA would have my ass in a sling for signing something like this.
I assume the govt is still tracking the approver somewhere, but you would think that tracking identifier would be part of this approval "signature".
Standard for GMP documentation is that it has to be directly attributable, meaning an auditor has to be able to look at the signature and immediately know who in the organization signed for it. Any third party record/database that needs to be referenced to ultimately attribute the signature is subject to possible manipulation and doesn't count.
Does it have to be attributable when printed or would the metadata available under a digital inspection count?
If the metadata is inseparable from the original record I imagine it would be fine. But this doesn't look like it has any metadata, it doesn't even have a serial number.
That's what happens if you configure Adobe incorrectly with a digital typed signature. I sure hope they aren't trying to hide who's approving.
That was one of my initial thoughts, just didnt want to jump straight to maliciousness either.
You can’t digitally sign form1s but they can. WTF.
You can absolutely digitally sign a Form 1.
Only if its a scanned version of your wet signature. They didnt do that, its a digital stamp that doesnt even indicate the name of the signatory.
> Only if its a scanned version of your wet signature. That is the exact opposite of what is allowed. You cannot use a saved/scanned version of your signature that you digitally insert. You CAN use a digital signature block where you sign with a stylus or mouse.
This is the way I’ve always done it. No issues.
Like I've said elsewhere, they'd have to care and compare multiple submissions to determine if you're using a saved signature. It is not allowed officially.
Imagine if they digitally signed it in Comic Sans font. 💀
Better be in wingdings or not at all
Nah, ya gotta do it in Curlz.
I see a lot of people saying this but both eForm1 and eForm4s done through silencershop are done with docusigning from a computer or mobile device? Is there a difference?
Why did an ATF examiner disapprove a form 1 NFA Trust because the responsible person questionnaire was digitally signed then?
That’s what I was asking. I believed you, just wasn’t sure why it was the case. Did a little research and it looks like it may be because DocuSign complies with the definition of an electronic signature under the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce (ESIGN) Act and the Uniform Electronic Transactions Act (UETA) and can be used as a legal signature, while simply digitally drawing out your signature and copying and pasting it in Word/Adobe or similar is not. Apparently there is a feature to do a legal eSignature in Adobe Acrobat though (don’t know much about it tbh), but maybe the ATF only specifically accepts eSignatures done through DocuSign, or just from SilencerShop in general for some reason? The 3 or 4 signatures on my last eForms were done through DocuSign, the RP questionnaire for my trust was done with my finger on the SilencerShop kiosk itself if I remember correctly? If it wasn’t that I do for sure remember signing my name extremely crudely for something when I did my fingerprints and all that a while back. Either way, I have never signed anything at all in physical ink.
I have an approved form 1 with no signature I've contacted atf multiple times and they haven't done a thing
How tf are we getting such short approvals meanwhile some of us are still waiting on amnesty forms and form 4s from fuckin april???? The fucking nfa makes no sense I swear like what's the point of having a stack if u never touch the guys at the bottom of it
Well your first mistake was doing the amnesty bullshit.
Eh I only did it for the free stamp tbh. I wanted to sbr that particular rifle anyways I just didn't wanna pay the $200. It wasn't so much about complying as using and abusing the system for my gain
You’re gonna be waiting a long time. They stopped processing amnesty forms when the pistol brace rule was nationally enjoined 2 months ago.
I'm more worried about the supressor tbh...it's almost April again and still nothing
Amnesty forms are on pause with the Nationwide Injunction from Britto v. ATF. Britto v. ATF, Mock v. Garland, Texas Gun Rights v. ATF, and State of Texas v. ATF have just been combined into a single case in the 5th Circuit around Dec 22nd
Imagine your birth certificate name is Authorized NFA, Division, Official and Reddit begins to troll you.
Whatever speeds up the process (which shouldn’t exist anyways).
They didn't give their AI document reviewer a name yet.
This could be because they're having local agents complete forms to try and keep the waits down But it's prolly just so they don't get emails lol
You bring up an interesting point. With it being the new year, I'm wondering if there's another reason behind this beyond just not being able to email them.
Over the last 6-10 months we've been seeing wild variations in wait times. I think they're making a real effort to get the averages lower... Random sub-100 day approvals are kinda proof of that... I know we don't like to praise the aft but, to me, it seems like they are making an actual effort to process stuff quicker
I guess I’m lost on this. Prior to E-Forms all my forms had my signature in ink. Post E-Forms, all my forms were signed digitally, when filed using E-Forms. My Form 20’s, a non E-Forms process, required a signature, I did so using a graphics file created from my signature and added it to the PDF. As far as the complaints that we have to do a wet signature, it just has not been my experience at all nor has it been the experience of the people I rub shoulders with.
> As far as the complaints that we have to do a wet signature, it just has not been my experience at all nor has it been the experience of the people I rub shoulders with. Officially, it absolutely has to be a LIVE signature, either ink or digital. Using a saved digital version of your signature is not allowed. However, they would have to take the time to compare all of your forms to determine if you're using a saved file signature, so it isn't worth their time.
Interesting. We use digital signatures at my workplace but it puts our actual name and email address along with the timestamp. Not just generic credentials. Seems sketchy
Ours are the same. Different agency, but it’s always first/last, watermark, and time stamp info. All liked to a physical Id with a pin to sign.
Might be wishful thinking but I’m hoping this means quicker approvals
Just wondering. JUST WONDERING.. how much a rubber stamp like that would cost some Red, White and Blue, constitution loving 2nd amendment believers, say if someone wanted one of their very own?
Why can't we just pay the stupid ass tax at the store? It's a regular nics check like a firearm right? We just turn in the photo and finger prints to the gun shop and pay the 200 dumbass tax?.?.?
6 months from now anyone with one of these will be a felon due to "unsigned" paperwork.
Sad, but plausible.
Highly so given the current state of the country. I'd be wary of anything not concrete with the Alphabet Boys. Even then it's not a guarantee.
I’m dumb, what’s this mean?
They signed digitally (we can’t) and without an agent’s name (the person you’d reach out to upon rejection)
You can sign digitally, it just has to be a live signature.
Weird, but at 75 days and waiting on an eform 1 I'd take any signature at this point!
I just got my UPIN (never had a delay but I was hopeful it would speed things up). Got mine back in less than a week if you count the fact that they were closed 1/1/24 https://preview.redd.it/mt9idm0vhnac1.png?width=181&format=png&auto=webp&s=26409d72e9d5884c7c513a89b13eca289b9140b5 Everyone is different, but perhaps a UPIN helped?
I've wondered about that. I've never had a NICS delay either, but it had crossed my mind if it'd make any difference on this stuff.
Can you apply a UPIN to an aleady submitted stamp? Or only to future ones? I found out today my 4 stamps are delayed for my wife's NICS check.
No - the upin is part of the form 1 / form 4 and can’t be added after submission… only during. Your best bet to to email your representative and the nics email here - https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/s/4IDbycylmX If you have any other questions please let me know.
It's easier to conceal approver numbers now. Fuck these useless Gov. dregs.
The real explanation: that random text is a bunch of fields for a digital certificate that was used to sign the form. But it doesn't look like a real signature even by technology standards
So still looks like they need to "hand" sign it by manually digitally signing it in the PDF via Adobe. This is still probably faster than ink signing and scanning it. What is interesting is there is zero information on who signed it. Usually digital certificates are associated with a specific user as part of PIV/CAC issuance. That it is a [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) is weird.
[удалено]
They changed the name a while ago in the restructuring.
I like to think that’s a legacy child of a former ATF agent that really loved infringing rights. *”This is my son Division, Authorized NFA”*
The hope that they'd be rubber stamping and churning them out faster persists
I wonder if I can sign my name like that!
I had the same thing, and thought it was weird as well
Told ya’ll harassing examiners w emails was going to cause problems lol
Guess this is what we will see from now on. I got my stamp approved by Authorized NFA Division official as well.
Could they be hiring outside people just to help speed up processing I know the va does this
Could be that they're contracting "examiners" to help with the backlog. They're not official ATF employees, but are given the same authority until the length of contract is reached.
This is what I'm hoping.
How the heck did they put Active Directory configuration in there LOL. My assumption is that they use an automated tool that puts the ATF officials name under the form. Probably takes their First and Last name from AD. Someone fucked up big time I’d think
Those are certificate attributes from the signing cert, not AD. It’s all based on X.500 namespace.
Yes you are right! My apologies, I got confused as AD also uses a lot of the X.500 namespace.
Anyone else notice that the Adobe version in the digital signature is just the most recent patch... Not a special version they say they operate off from that doesn't have a search function? Meaning their "Not a registry" database that isn't a registry because they are allegedly use a special version without search functions, would then be a registry because they infact have Adobe with search function intact.
Digital signature. The government has gone over to using CAC (Govt ID card with digital credentials). These are used to log on to the work PC, read email, encrypt emails, log on to government restricted web sites and digitally sign documents.
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I got a disapproval today with the same Acrobat digital signature
So if you don't know did the examination, what is next?
How long did it take and individual versus trust?
Had one process in 9 days F1, Trust, Mailed prints 12/6/2023 - filed another on 12/28/23 approved today so there’s that
Dec 27 --> Jan 5th for me Take out the date they were closed over new years and that's 8 days.
Individual, 9 Days, 8 if you remove the holiday.
Yep, just got the same thing on my form 4
Just had a form approved today, says this also
Mine was approved this morning as well with same signature stamp
I’ve been waiting since 5/18/23 for 3 rifles. Anytime I call and wait for 30-40 minutes they say it’s in the time frame.
I also received a approval without a signature on my last form one. How is that trackable, no barcode no meta-data. no more Carol!
I just had this happen on two forms approved today as well