I asked, they said it’s an entirely new suppressor model/product. It is cool to the touch and cool to thermal as well. It’s not a device or tech that could be added or attached to their current offerings.
Sounds wild. Excited to learn more.
But... Where does all the heat go... Yes insulated but will it heat up the barrel more... Also how long do baffles last and does it have shooting limit schedules...
Isn't it supposed to be integrating some kind of venturi affect allowing it to cool itself like that old MG did? Or is this gonna b like the Stanley cup type of vaccum?
Exactly what they say it is. Double wall structure and a vacuum is pulled between the walls to act as an insulation barrier so the outside wall does not glow, only the inside will get hot enough to glow.
Same thing used on thermos’, ductwork, etc.
Your welcome. It’s basic mechanical engineering info. Energy (heat) must have a medium to transfer too. There is nothing for the energy to transfer to in a vacuum so it will travel elsewhere. In this case out the front of the can where it is exposed to atmosphere.
They also coat the inside of the outer layer with copper which reflects IR. AvE on YouTube did a video on yeti cups and demonstrated it with an IR camera using a copper plate as a mirror.
I didn’t make any comment about the effectiveness of this design, just correcting the “mechanical engineering info”.
However I don’t think there is any reflective coating:
https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/1bf3urk/comment/kuy6zt6/
It probably wouldn't matter after a little carbon gets on it anyway, I just thought it was an interesting property of copper. Pretty sure it's copper anyway.
You would coat the interior surface of the outermost layer, the exterior of the vacuum insulated part.
There wouldn't be any carbon buildup in the vacuum portion.
One complication with this is that the inner section will be even hotter on average due to being unable to transfer the heat to the outside of the silencer and dissipate some of the heat via radiation and convection.
That might limit the amount of volume that can be shot at a time (not that we really take advantage of full auto ratings)
That's cool as fuck! (literally)
If they can make a suppressor that will hold that vacuum over tens of thousands of rounds and serious abuse, it would be nearly revolutionary.
Yeah, knowing how hard it is to maintain decent vacuum I'm super curious how durable this will be, and if it is durable, how exactly CAT managed to make it so.
So not venturi??? I seen in the fosscad group a venturi suppressor design was just made functional for 3dp materials, and assumed this was a similar design. If not it's only a matter of time before they combine the 2 designs and get something amazing
It’s a thermos shell built over the silencer. Keeps heat from radiating out, mitigating mirage and looking like a glowing pickle on a thermal-scope. However, all that heat has to go somewhere - and it often goes back to the chamber. Cook offs and increased operational parts heat and wear.
This. Silencers are thermodynamic devices that convert the kinetic energy of muzzle gasses into heat. That energy has to have a path to a sink (environment) somewhere. The more energy you convert to heat the more efficient a silencer is. As the differential temperature between the muzzle gasses and suppressor decreases the effectiveness of the suppressor also decreases.
I understand there are plenty of times when a low surface temp on a silencer is desirable (mirage, IR sig, etc.) but it should be understood this is a tradeoff, not a thermodynamic freebie.
> It’s a thermos shell built over the silencer. Keeps heat from radiating out, mitigating mirage and looking like a glowing pickle on a thermal-scope. However, all that heat has to go somewhere - and it often goes back to the chamber. Cook offs and increased operational parts heat and wear.
Its gotta be heavy too right? I would imagine it nearly doubles the material needed
Never heard that air is a great conducter? Something, something, molecule spacing... here's the first Google grab for you. Why do you think you can't feel a hot car before you grab the handle/ steering wheel or sit in the seat?
https://homework.study.com/explanation/is-air-an-insulator-or-a-conductor.html#:~:text=Air%20is%20an%20insulator.,gases%20are%20generally%20good%20insulators.
A bunch of people tried the Insulon Shield back when SOCOM was asking for an integrated suppressed upper. Always interesting to see old becoming new again. https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18305_Kent.pdf
I’ve got Remington’s SURG test paper somewhere… everyone gave up on Insulon eventually, and of course we wound up with yet another SIG award. Insulon was a neat idea but people kept popping them, and of course the weight and such was a bother. Shrug. F3 me one and I’ll do the bacon frying SOCOM test. :D
Is it going to be straight vacuum, or are you running some IR reflective shielding in there as well? Zojirushi has been adding additional IR layers to their hot cups for years.
How's it going to work if you drop it or otherwise dent the outer shell enough to touch the interior wall?
I understand that it won't be warranty, but that's really going to suck if it can't easily be fixed.
Consider it just another layer of material, with structures between the two which provide rigidity. It’s not like prior designs, it exists today and has for a long time in our group, it’s strong. We’re simply looking for a US company that can do the processing, we’ll print internally.
From the sounds of it it’s definitely going to be applicable to a niche part of the market, those who have heat signature as their number one priority, which until now was basically no one as a suppressor that could mitigate it didn’t exist.
If you were very concerned with visible/thermal emissions, this is obviously a very interesting proposal.
It'll be great for PRS shooters (maybe). They shoot enough that mirage from the can becomes a problem, but not enough that the insulation would be too concerning.
Most PRS shooters are not shooting with suppressors and use brakes... or use a suppressor with a brake like Area 419. Suppressors slow down the recoil impulse and that makes it longer to return to target, and that hampers calling your shots at shorter distances.
Seems like it’s gonna take forever to cool off, leading to extremely fast wear. Trying to max IR stealth stat at the cost of just about everything else.
One of the AB Suppressor employees brought a new coated suppressor to the rifle match. Said the coating would insulate the can and keep it cool to the touch for some crazy amount of rounds. Maybe close to a full mag? Anyway, I asked about the titanium can being made even hotter and he said something along the lines of it was an issue.
Insulating a can doesn't reject heat. It just contains it. You'd need to use different materials to help slow heat transfer to the can, at the cost of suppression in some small degree.
I get it will be insulated so the outside doesn’t get hot, but the heat still goes somewhere, so it’s gonna make the internal baffles much hotter, and subsequently the barrel much hotter as well.
Not saying it’s good or bad, so someone else better with gunsmithing can chime in, but I feel like more heat to the baffles and barrel isn’t really a plus.
So who is TSF?
I'll be interested in seeing how this performs. Heat energy has to go somewhere. I typically like the ideas of fast cooling cans. But insulated cans would be nice for precision rifles I suppose.
Trying to figure out what Mother In Law units use vacuum insulated cans though
I also wanted to try and make a helium filled suppressor. Reason being sound doesn't travel through helium like it does through air, I figured it might make it a bit more quiet.
ETA: a vacuum should do similar.
Does nobody realize that heat will still transfer to the outer wall as long as there is conductive material forming the ends of the vacuum chamber? This will just force the heat to flow a longer distance before being cooled by the air and slightly delay the silencer heating up to a uniform temperature.
This application seems like it would be much better applied by having a double-walled vacuum shroud tuck a suppressor inside with an air gap. Imagine a YETI open at both ends.
That would be a shroud. What you’re saying is technically correct but the bridging walls are so small, the transfer will be minor and at the rail, so on thermal it looks like the back of the muzzle device.
Your statement was it’ll be expensive and heavy, our response is it won’t be neither. Pricing and weight will match peer competitors that have less tech. We think CAT has already proven itself to have superior output for form factor.
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Given the YETI name AND new tech? I’d guess more than that and there would be people fighting to get in line long b4 anything’s proven just because….people are stupid
The good question: Who the fuck are they and how they manage to do this? Ah yes, the forbidden question to ask them before they rant that you're a Surefire simp.
What is the repair process & anticipated timeline when users sustain damage to this silencer? Does the vacuum thermal barrier separate easily from the core of the silencer or is it integral as would be anticipated with an additively manufactured system? Where is the serial number marked on the silencer?
We would be glad to license the Energetic Armament serial ID ring if you are still in the development phase of this system and integrating it into your design would simplify repairs and possible core swaps for future upgrades.
Hey Karl. Thanks for the thought, don’t need the ring, we cut it off at dedicated cut lines, put a new printed core on top, vacuum and you’re back in business at 4 weeks later.
Stanley cup for boys
With just as much lead
I hope they make accessories!
Came to say this
The original Stanley Cup then?
I asked, they said it’s an entirely new suppressor model/product. It is cool to the touch and cool to thermal as well. It’s not a device or tech that could be added or attached to their current offerings. Sounds wild. Excited to learn more.
But... Where does all the heat go... Yes insulated but will it heat up the barrel more... Also how long do baffles last and does it have shooting limit schedules...
Heat goes down into a tube and warms up the shooter’s balls during cold weather
Heat is stored in the balls
my only thought would be that it would be easy to not realize how hot the inside is. Just because it's cool to the touch doesn't mean it won't melt.
Isn't it supposed to be integrating some kind of venturi affect allowing it to cool itself like that old MG did? Or is this gonna b like the Stanley cup type of vaccum?
I seen this on their story but have absolutely no idea what it means haha. What is a vacuum insulated suppressor??
Exactly what they say it is. Double wall structure and a vacuum is pulled between the walls to act as an insulation barrier so the outside wall does not glow, only the inside will get hot enough to glow. Same thing used on thermos’, ductwork, etc.
Ohhhh. Very cool. Thank you man.
Your welcome. It’s basic mechanical engineering info. Energy (heat) must have a medium to transfer too. There is nothing for the energy to transfer to in a vacuum so it will travel elsewhere. In this case out the front of the can where it is exposed to atmosphere.
Heat transfer still occurs by radiation in a vacuum.
Yeah, I can really only see this being effective with a super low firing schedule. I guess time will tell.
Right! This is the way sunlight/heat warms the planet
They also coat the inside of the outer layer with copper which reflects IR. AvE on YouTube did a video on yeti cups and demonstrated it with an IR camera using a copper plate as a mirror.
I didn’t make any comment about the effectiveness of this design, just correcting the “mechanical engineering info”. However I don’t think there is any reflective coating: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/1bf3urk/comment/kuy6zt6/
It probably wouldn't matter after a little carbon gets on it anyway, I just thought it was an interesting property of copper. Pretty sure it's copper anyway.
You would coat the interior surface of the outermost layer, the exterior of the vacuum insulated part. There wouldn't be any carbon buildup in the vacuum portion.
You're right, good point
One complication with this is that the inner section will be even hotter on average due to being unable to transfer the heat to the outside of the silencer and dissipate some of the heat via radiation and convection. That might limit the amount of volume that can be shot at a time (not that we really take advantage of full auto ratings)
That's cool as fuck! (literally) If they can make a suppressor that will hold that vacuum over tens of thousands of rounds and serious abuse, it would be nearly revolutionary.
Yeah, knowing how hard it is to maintain decent vacuum I'm super curious how durable this will be, and if it is durable, how exactly CAT managed to make it so.
I saw the prototype. It’s a Stanley with baffles.
Thanks ! Spit coffee everywhere reading that ! 😂😂😂
>That's cool as suck (literally) Ftfy
So not venturi??? I seen in the fosscad group a venturi suppressor design was just made functional for 3dp materials, and assumed this was a similar design. If not it's only a matter of time before they combine the 2 designs and get something amazing
I don’t think it would be in terms of “insulation”. A Venturi is used in terms flow.
Geissele has a similar concept with double wall called the night owl
It’s a thermos shell built over the silencer. Keeps heat from radiating out, mitigating mirage and looking like a glowing pickle on a thermal-scope. However, all that heat has to go somewhere - and it often goes back to the chamber. Cook offs and increased operational parts heat and wear.
Now I just need my body to also not glow under thermal
https://www.beezcombatsystems.com/products/predator-ghillie%E2%84%A2-spectralflage-blanket?gad_source=1
Well there goes my paycheck
We bought these for the unit during jungle training. Worked pretty well.
This. Silencers are thermodynamic devices that convert the kinetic energy of muzzle gasses into heat. That energy has to have a path to a sink (environment) somewhere. The more energy you convert to heat the more efficient a silencer is. As the differential temperature between the muzzle gasses and suppressor decreases the effectiveness of the suppressor also decreases. I understand there are plenty of times when a low surface temp on a silencer is desirable (mirage, IR sig, etc.) but it should be understood this is a tradeoff, not a thermodynamic freebie.
Would a liberty defense suppressor cover handle like 80% of this?
> It’s a thermos shell built over the silencer. Keeps heat from radiating out, mitigating mirage and looking like a glowing pickle on a thermal-scope. However, all that heat has to go somewhere - and it often goes back to the chamber. Cook offs and increased operational parts heat and wear. Its gotta be heavy too right? I would imagine it nearly doubles the material needed
Thermos sleeves aren’t super heavy, take a peek at that presentation I linked.
Negative, will mostly transfer to atmosphere as the ambient air will be cooler than the barrel and internal components
Heat energy transfers through metal a LOT faster/more than it transfers to air...
How? Explain that.
Never heard that air is a great conducter? Something, something, molecule spacing... here's the first Google grab for you. Why do you think you can't feel a hot car before you grab the handle/ steering wheel or sit in the seat? https://homework.study.com/explanation/is-air-an-insulator-or-a-conductor.html#:~:text=Air%20is%20an%20insulator.,gases%20are%20generally%20good%20insulators.
A bunch of people tried the Insulon Shield back when SOCOM was asking for an integrated suppressed upper. Always interesting to see old becoming new again. https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18305_Kent.pdf
The Insulon Shield worked but was cumbersome and the tech has got exponentially better.
I’ve got Remington’s SURG test paper somewhere… everyone gave up on Insulon eventually, and of course we wound up with yet another SIG award. Insulon was a neat idea but people kept popping them, and of course the weight and such was a bother. Shrug. F3 me one and I’ll do the bacon frying SOCOM test. :D
Is it going to be straight vacuum, or are you running some IR reflective shielding in there as well? Zojirushi has been adding additional IR layers to their hot cups for years.
No, simply a vacuum for surface cooling and thermal signature.
You guys are mad scientists! My bank account is getting sweaty.
🙏🏻🖤
How's it going to work if you drop it or otherwise dent the outer shell enough to touch the interior wall? I understand that it won't be warranty, but that's really going to suck if it can't easily be fixed.
Consider it just another layer of material, with structures between the two which provide rigidity. It’s not like prior designs, it exists today and has for a long time in our group, it’s strong. We’re simply looking for a US company that can do the processing, we’ll print internally.
Well, that is an answer... I guess we'll see when it's released and someone smacks one with a hammer
There’s always that one dude that likes doing crazy shit like that 😉🤣
That gonna take a while to cool down….potentially add a lot of stress to a given system.
From the sounds of it it’s definitely going to be applicable to a niche part of the market, those who have heat signature as their number one priority, which until now was basically no one as a suppressor that could mitigate it didn’t exist. If you were very concerned with visible/thermal emissions, this is obviously a very interesting proposal.
I’m sure in a niche role something like this could be a life saver. To the good majority of us, might just cause problems we didn’t ask for.
It'll be great for PRS shooters (maybe). They shoot enough that mirage from the can becomes a problem, but not enough that the insulation would be too concerning.
Most PRS shooters are not shooting with suppressors and use brakes... or use a suppressor with a brake like Area 419. Suppressors slow down the recoil impulse and that makes it longer to return to target, and that hampers calling your shots at shorter distances.
Seems like it’s gonna take forever to cool off, leading to extremely fast wear. Trying to max IR stealth stat at the cost of just about everything else.
One of the AB Suppressor employees brought a new coated suppressor to the rifle match. Said the coating would insulate the can and keep it cool to the touch for some crazy amount of rounds. Maybe close to a full mag? Anyway, I asked about the titanium can being made even hotter and he said something along the lines of it was an issue. Insulating a can doesn't reject heat. It just contains it. You'd need to use different materials to help slow heat transfer to the can, at the cost of suppression in some small degree.
As far as I understand it, part of what makes a suppressor work is DISSIPATING the heat. That doesn't happen if it is insulated.
Listen, we're going to parboil the suppressors.
I drew up this very concept years ago. Nice to know I am not off-base.
Should’ve got the patent if available like Hux
Naw. Small potatoes I am
A small potato can become a big spud.
Indeed. Working on it
I get it will be insulated so the outside doesn’t get hot, but the heat still goes somewhere, so it’s gonna make the internal baffles much hotter, and subsequently the barrel much hotter as well. Not saying it’s good or bad, so someone else better with gunsmithing can chime in, but I feel like more heat to the baffles and barrel isn’t really a plus.
So who is TSF? I'll be interested in seeing how this performs. Heat energy has to go somewhere. I typically like the ideas of fast cooling cans. But insulated cans would be nice for precision rifles I suppose. Trying to figure out what Mother In Law units use vacuum insulated cans though
The Specter Factory - I believe it’s their “mother ship” in essence.
inb4 Dead Air outsources their manufacturing to Yeti
Very Interested to see how it turns out...
I gotta bring my vacuum to the range now?
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Vacuum pump**
They posted this on their IG story today
So she gonna be thicc to maintain internal volume and accommodate a vacuum chamber. Very interested to see how this turns out.
Is this like a hydro flask but for a can
Exactly.
I hope this doesn’t look as ugly as whatever the hell dead air is coming out with
No it’s not Sir.
I also wanted to try and make a helium filled suppressor. Reason being sound doesn't travel through helium like it does through air, I figured it might make it a bit more quiet. ETA: a vacuum should do similar.
Does nobody realize that heat will still transfer to the outer wall as long as there is conductive material forming the ends of the vacuum chamber? This will just force the heat to flow a longer distance before being cooled by the air and slightly delay the silencer heating up to a uniform temperature. This application seems like it would be much better applied by having a double-walled vacuum shroud tuck a suppressor inside with an air gap. Imagine a YETI open at both ends.
That would be a shroud. What you’re saying is technically correct but the bridging walls are so small, the transfer will be minor and at the rail, so on thermal it looks like the back of the muzzle device.
This sounds expensive and heavy
Neither.
So how are you adding an extra layer of material for a vacuum barrier and not adding additional weight?
Your statement was it’ll be expensive and heavy, our response is it won’t be neither. Pricing and weight will match peer competitors that have less tech. We think CAT has already proven itself to have superior output for form factor.
I am on the other end of the spectrum. Where them cooling fins at?
Take my money!!!
But remember when feels were hurt by warranty jokes? Feels! They may never recover.
Hahaha, we’re still reeling by people not getting the DA joke.
CAT as in Caterpillar? As in the heavy machinery manufacturing company?
**Understand the rules**, read the sidebar, and review the pinned Megathreads before posting - this content is capable of answering most questions. Not everyone is an expert such as yourself; be considerate. All spam, memes, unverified claims, or content suggesting non-compliance will be removed. No political posts. Save that for /r/progun or /r/politics. __If you are posting a copy/screenshot of your forms outside the pinned monthly megathread you will be given a 7 day ban. The pinned post is there, please use it.__ __If you are posting a photo of a suppressor posed to look like a penis you will be given a 7 day ban.__ ------------------------------- **Data Links** * [The OG Universal Form Approval Spreadsheet](https://thinlineweapons.com/url/8) ------------------------------- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NFA) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Like cat the motor company
I’m lost, what company is making this?
Boo.
Well I figured it out now, told some buddies about it, we’re excited to see how this goes.
Clearly they’re trying to say their suppressors suck
We like what you did there, quite cheeky.
https://preview.redd.it/cg31yxpz6qoc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=98dc3c1a25abc29803d33e683e43f3029f2f815e
Geez a Yeti suppressor. That’ll be what $2k? Lol
Given the YETI name AND new tech? I’d guess more than that and there would be people fighting to get in line long b4 anything’s proven just because….people are stupid
Now now, already exists, simply going to be commercially available.
Literally nothing in this post made sense to me other than the vacuum sealed part.
That’s the whole point, the first fully integrated, commercially available, vacuum suppressor. That’s all.
Kevin brittingham hates CAT
Bahahaha, we’re closing shop.
The good question: Who the fuck are they and how they manage to do this? Ah yes, the forbidden question to ask them before they rant that you're a Surefire simp.
Oh look who it is.
What is the repair process & anticipated timeline when users sustain damage to this silencer? Does the vacuum thermal barrier separate easily from the core of the silencer or is it integral as would be anticipated with an additively manufactured system? Where is the serial number marked on the silencer? We would be glad to license the Energetic Armament serial ID ring if you are still in the development phase of this system and integrating it into your design would simplify repairs and possible core swaps for future upgrades.
Hey Karl. Thanks for the thought, don’t need the ring, we cut it off at dedicated cut lines, put a new printed core on top, vacuum and you’re back in business at 4 weeks later.
Very good! Looks like a cool (pun intended) can.
Is this essentially the same thing as a modtac cover?
No, completely different tech.
Very cool 👍
Not sure I wanna buy tech from someone who writes like that.
Unfortunately, someone will buy this garbage.