Mac probably epitomizes the current trend of overdrafting QBs based on positional value. Guy would have been a second or third rounder a decade ago, but there was talk of him going as high as 2-3 before the draft.
I mean I think being kind of a chubby unassuming white dude could have dropped him to the 2nd. I think a lot of people viewed him as more of a product of an absurdly talented Alabama team. Teams used to care far more about measurables than they do now.
Also, Haskins and Fields both appear to have been vastly over drafted.
I know it was at Hawaii but Colt Brennan went in the 6th Rd and had put up some of the greatest passing seasons in college history at that time. Though I'll die on the hill that Brennan would have been a good NFL QB if he didn't get injured and addicted to painkillers.
Ok but those are all recent guys and the point was that older 10-20 years ago it was different. I can also point out Russell Wilson. Had an absurdly efficient season at Wisconsin and went in the third because of his height and that was only a decade ago.
For his time period Troy Smith was a super efficient passer that won a Heisman and went in the 5th. Recently, Hurts had a great final season at Oklahoma and went in the 2nd. Kyle Trask went in the 2nd and put up great numbers. The list can really go on with guys like Colt McCoy, Graham Harrell, or even Greg Mcelroy/AJ McCarron.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that if Mac Jones came out 20 years ago he probably slips to the 2nd-3rd range because of he was chubby in college and doesnt have an arm that wows you.
20 years ago Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers all had worse stats than Mac Jones and were drafted top 11. Again he absolutely would have been picked in the first round.
That's not really accounting for the era though. Passing has advanced and all the stats are inflated. If Mac played in that era he wouldn't have put up the same stats.
Rivers and Ben put up absurd numbers for that era and were way more impressive than Mac in comparison to his peers and Eli put up good stats and is a Manning. None of them were playing with two wrs that went in the top 10 and a first round rb.
Not saying Mac was bad but there was a reason he was the 5th QB taken. 20 years ago you had teams drafting running backs 1st overall or in the top 3 it was a different era. Shit there was a kicker taken in the 1st near that era.
It’s not a national championship but Kirk Cousins was a smart pocket guy with a good arm who lead a solid Michigan State team to a co big 10 championship and big 10 championship game in his last 2 years. He did that with a team significantly less talented than Jones’ Alabama team. In 2010 you could get by without a stud at QB so a guy like Mac would’ve gone lower. There was more emphasis on other parts of the game. Today QBs go higher and higher because of how the modern game emphasizes passing.
Brandon Weeden went 22nd in that same draft.
Also Cousins numbers weren't in Mac's universe. And it's not like college offenses weren't explosive a decade ago.
Cousins Senior year:
267 completions
419 attempts
63.7%
3316 yards
7.9 y/a
25 tds
10 ints
The reason why is because the new rookie pay scale.
Now you can draft a QB at 15 and you're paying them peanuts for 4 years.
If they can be even a Kirk cousins level QB at that pay then you have money to make a super team around them.
Players before the rookie pay scale could sign a shorter contract or demand more money so it made drafting the actual best player more important instead of trying to game the system by getting the best value by position.
I'm not misunderstanding it, it's just a bad take.
There were tons of rumors that Mac could go 3rd overall to SF. He was one of the most efficient college QB's in recent history.
His biggest knock was his cast was all-world, which turned out to be a legit criticism.
People are seeing Mac struggle in the NFL and incorrectly saying he was a mid round talent. That's just not true.
I wouldn’t say Mac was overdrafted. The game has shifted over the years. A decade ago Kirk Cousins went in the 4th round and today he’s a $35 million man. A decade ago you could have Super Bowl aspirations with a strong defense and run game. The modern game is so QB focused that getting a Kirk Cousins level QB means you can be a true contender and that is well worth a first round pick.
This is just utter nonsense. He’s putting up respectable numbers with a bad OL and only average WR’s. He also spent a crucial year having a DC as his OC.
Get him a solid OL and a legit WR1 (aka what basically every top 10 QB has) and he’d be firmly in the mix IMO.
TLaw will be a starter for years.
ZW is the 2nd worst QB I’ve ever seen, 1st is our backup QB Tim Boyle. ZW is worse than Johnny Manziel. He’s that fucking bad.
backup QB is way more about being a well-liked dude who knows the playbook than anything else. Plenty of marginal guys stuck around in those jobs for years (Chase Daniel comes to mind)
Yeah, he wasn't any good in college (though worth noting, he then transferred to EKU and was considerably better there, though not actually good). But if you've ever watched him in preseason games, you know he has NFL-caliber arm talent, which was enough for the Packers to initially take a UDFA flyer on him in a 'I wonder if this guy has ever had a competent QB coach before' kind of move. From there, I assume he made good impressions on the right people and he'll always have the "I shared a QB room with Aaron Rodgers for a few years" line on his resume.
I mean he’s really not there to play imo. There’s different levels of backup QBs. There’s guys like Andy Dalton, Jacoby Brissett, Gardner Minshew, etc. who if your starting QB goes down, you’ll trust them enough to be the starter for multiple games, or potentially even the full season.
Then there’s guys like Tim Boyle, who, yeah, you’d let him start *a game* if your QB was out for a week, but if your starter went down long term, you’d likely be looking somewhere else for a starter.
I would understand this comment if it was about Peterman or someone like that. But what has Boyle done to deserve this reaction? Lol guy has barely played any regular season snaps at all. Are you confusing him with someone else?
Yeah I know. But he got a tryout regardless and made the packers team. Being shocked that he “still has a job” to me implies they did something negative that would get them out of the league, like Peterman’s 5 pick game. But I understand now that they’re just surprised he’s lasted this long.
Yeah other than Zach and maybe Trey I think the franchise drafting matters a lot.
- Trevor would be successful in most franchises, he's just unfortunately getting ruined
- Zach would probably be bad in any franchise
- Trey is hard to tell because he was such a blank slate but probably bad anywhere
- Fields would probably be successful in a few franchises that built to his strengths
- Mac would probably be successful in teams with less of a disparity between pressure & weapons
> Fields would probably be successful in a few franchises that built to his strengths
I mean. At some point Fields would have to read defenses. Doesn't matter the offense, because if you get a holding penalty on any drive he would probably turn the ball over or get sacked trying to make back that yardage.
Not sure how open you could make receivers for Fields to pull the trigger.
He just doesn’t look like the generational prospect he was touted to be, not even close for that matter
Dude looks like a run of the mill above average starter in this league, like a Derek carr
I am not Pats or a Mac fan, but it seems a little unfair to Mac since he has probably bottom 5 talent around him on the offensive side and he had a defensive coach as a offensive coordinator last year. He is in a bad situation, like many QBs drafted high and doesn’t have a great chance to succeed. I do wonder what he would look like had the 49ers drafted him instead.
Having watched the Jets-Pats game today (as a jets fan 😞), Mac truly looked fantastic with his decision making.
He had maybe 3-4 poor decisions the entire game in the rain in MetLife. I do not want to imagine what could happen if he had a better roster around him.
That being said, the biggest concern still remains in his athletic ceiling. He’s not going to be a guy that scrambles or extends plays with his legs, even at 25. If he stays healthy, I could really see the patriots reclaiming a spot at the top of the AFC East. Although this is all contingent on Belichick being a competent GM.
Not sure what to say. Against the Eagles, he was getting pressured near instantly, and he drove the ball down the field consistently in the second half. A lot of people who reports on the Eagles genuinely thought Mac looked pretty good in week 1.
Clearly the pats offensive scheme is fantastic, but their ability to move the ball against amazing pass rushing defenses is overlooked considering their lack of pure talent.
I feel like people have forgotten that Tom Brady was not exactly an impressive athlete either. This is not to say Mac will turn into anything close to Tom, but we can’t discount the role the Belichick played in making Brady into who he was.
The first 2 weeks he also had like no offensive line, we had like 3 or 4 starters injured. He’s currently leading the league in shortest pocket time, most QB hurries, and most blitzes faced. And despite all that, he’s only been sacked the 17th most, and knocked down the 13th most, and going into Sunday’s game, he was 7th in the league in QBR under pressure.
Trevor was the only bright spot on offense today and last week. WRs dropping passes, not getting feet in bounds, and false starts.
Doug also had given up playcalling to our OC this year up until the 2nd half. Team is just a mess rn
Pff isn’t the be all and end all but he’s looked pretty good this year and he’s like what the 3rd highest graded so yeah this dude has no idea what he’s talking about
For ... decades actually, I figured that 2/3 of 1st round QBs were going to be busts. I haven't tried to look at the numbers lately but I'd think it's lower now. You get the occasional draft with Burrow/Tua/Herbert and it certainly FEELS as though the odds of success has increased a bit.
I think teams now usually do a better job taking advantage of the cheap rookie QB contract and put a good team around the QB during their rookie contracts.
There are 32 NFL starting QBs but there are not 30 starting level QBs in the league. That's why a bunch of QBs get picked in the 1st everu year: to replace the dead wood.
Yeah and the average QB doesn't play 15 years. Andrew Luck was drafted 11 years ago. You have guys like RG3 who end early because of injury but are absolutely starter level for a time.
I'd say there are 2-3 starting QBs per draft on average.
Do you consider someone like Jameis a starting QB? There are 2-3 QBs per draft who will end up starting a lot of games but I wouldn't say there are 2-3 career starters per draft.
I would, yeah. Not now obviously but he was a legitimate starting QB for a good amount of time.
Same for guys like Carson Wentz, Andy Dalton, Alex Smith, etc. They aren't HOFers but they were legitimate starting QBs for playoff contending teams during their prime even if they became backups later in their careers.
you responded to someone saying 1 or 2 every year. your first sentence then questioned that.
so either you shouldn't have questioned him because you agreed that the average is at least 1 a year, or you disagreed with 1 or 2, in which case you're just wrong.
which do you prefer, being wrong, or arguing with someone you agree with for no reason?
edit: also, I just realized you said there isn't 1 or 2 viable starters in the whole draft, jot just the first round like how this conversation started, so you're actually MORE wrong, because my count of ~12 doesn't include people like dak, Wilson, cousins, and Purdy.
counting all rounds, there is definitely close to 2 viable starters per draft
I will never understand why Mac Jones gets shit on so much he was always going to be a startable guy but never elite and Lawrence has been fine he was pretty close to a finished project coming out of college and has had really bad coaching issues. The rest of them it feels pretty safe to say are busts.
Honestly Mac looks fine but he has very little talent on that offense outside of Stevenson. Mac was also pretty bad last year but Patricia was a joke.
If he went to San Fran I think he would be doing compatible things to Purdy.
Also, QBs can improve. Brady was kind of thought of as a game manager type early in his career.
It’s so frustrating how BB just refuses to get Mac any decent weapons. The best receivers he’s had in his career so far have been Jakobi Meyers, Devante Parker, and Kendrick Bourne. Those guys are all fine enough WR2/3 but none of them even come close to a true number 1 WR. It legitimately feels like Bill trying to build the team like Brady is still there, which just isn’t realistic.
I think you’re jumping the gun a little on Lawrence after 3 games. The Texans may not be as bad as all that
Mac could also end up with a 2nd contract and hover around the Dalton/Cousins line
If these guys combine for like an Eli Manning and Derek Carr sort of career, it could still end up as a good QB class
Put Mac on the right team and I could see him being great. Hell, if he was drafted by the 49ers I could absolutely see him having playing at the same level that Purdy is playing at right now.
The Patriots are just a black hole on offense in terms of talent, and Mac isn't the type of guy that'll elevate a team beyond that.
Lol fair point, I meant more the regular season play, draft status, career longevity.
But I do think it goes to show that a player's level of career success can be largely defined by a couple big games. There is still plenty of opportunity for Lawrence to be considered a big success
T Law will probably be a Stafford-level QB rather than the generational talent he was touted as
Mac will be an average to below average starter for 10+ years
Wilson, Lance, and Fields I can’t ever see as starters in the league after this season
Mac will be a solid starter for years he’s bengals Andy Dalton he’s the line. Where if your starter worst than him time to start looking if he’s better your in good shape.
T law can’t give up yet but he was special in college & the back half of last year
2 starter level QBs is fine
For Lawrence specially, I’ll go against the popular opinion and say that he’s been a little disappointing. He was heralded as a generational prospect. Best since Andrew Luck. He was crowned better than Joe Burrow, significantly better than Tua, and way way better than Herbert. People even went as far as suggesting he stay another year in college to dodge the Jags.
With that being said, he’s clearly a good QB in the league and will be a fine starter. But that “elite” upside remains to be seen. With the way people were talking about him, his career should’ve started out like Justin Herbert imo.
>For Lawrence specially, I’ll go against the popular opinion and say that he’s been a little disappointing.
I was always of the opinion that Lawrence hasn't shown significant tape to be heralded as a top5 QB as I've seen during this offseason. I thought I was going crazy. However...
>With the way people were talking about him, his career should’ve started out like Justin Herbert imo.
You cannot expect any QB to average around 5k yards and 40 TD's in his first two season as Herbert did. That's just unbelievable expectations to put upon your QB.
Mac is exactly what people thought he'd be. TLaw will be in the league for years. Maybe he turns it around. It's not like we've never seen QBs improve before. The others are bad though. The covid year really helped Wilson and Lance's stock.
I dont think Lawrence is bad. He's had a few mediocre games to start the season, but he was hardly the issue with either of their losses.
He was also never likely to reach the lofty projections they had for him- but he can still be a top 10 QB this year if he gets cooking like he did in the 2nd half last year.
I think you’re a little harsh on Mac Jones. When you look at the list of qbs drafted 15th or later (where he was picked), I think he actually stacks up pretty well.
That being said, I do agree with your overall point. People forget, but this draft was thought of as one of the best qb classes of this generation, and people thought there were easily multiple franchise qbs available. Crazy that three years in, there might not be any who have clearly established themselves. It really sucks as a Jets fan because of how much hope we had before the draft that we’d finally get our qb. It seens that based on this list we never really had a chance, and that makes me feel a little better I guess.
T Law will probably be a 10+ year starter and make at least 1 pro bowl, and a couple of these guys will probably end up being long term back ups. Not even a little bit close to the biggest QB draft class bust of all time
I mean Lawrence is pretty good and Mac Jones has been solid this year (although won’t ever be more then a solid QB).
IMO this class is somewhat improved, on Max Jones back. I had doubts about him being a long term starter going into the year, but now I think he will be.
I never thought Fields was a long term starter
The problem with projecting Jones is that we haven't seen the Patriots give him a true WR1 the way the Dolphins did with Tua and the Bills did with Allen.
I really liked Trey Lance upside. He just never improved. Just imagine if I liked Josh Allen upside and he never improved. He would be trash but he got better every year
1. Idk about today he looked really, but underlying metrics do suggest that Lawrence is going to end up having a much better season than it looks rn.
2. Mac Jones is exactly who we think he is
There wasn’t enough draft capital invested for me to put 2015 even in the discussion. Sure neither Winston nor Mariota were any good but after that the next highest draft capital was 75th overall. It’s a little to early to put the nail in the coffin for any of 2021, but if there isn’t some drastic improvement then they’ll be significantly than most others because 3-4 bust in the top 15 picks is hard to overcome.
JF does not get enough criticism. I’ve been saying since day one that he’s one of the worst passers I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s literally like he has to see the wr be open. I go back to that Clemson game where olave was open and he threw a pick. Yeah ZW has been bad , however there have been moments whilst watching where you’re like Jesus Christ how many QBs could make that throw? Then he spazzes the fuck out. He’s not worse than Jamarcus. He and John Skelton and peterman were all worse QBs than Zach. If he was able to be consistent he’d be a top ten qb but he can’t get out of his own head. He needs therapy or something because he’s straight up broken but he has working parts. Plus I hate the people who put this on JD. ZW was the almost consensus pick for second best qb. The niners and EAGLES both tried to trade up for him. The nines did trade up to three and ZW lasted longer than Lance so he’s clearly not the worst. I’m sorry but JF just sucks. The hype over his running was stupid because he can’t pass for shit
Wilson is worse than JaMarcus. Russell winging it was better than Wilson just due to his size alone. Wilson problem has always been he was a 1 read QB. They accused Fields of this and rightfully so and Wilson was even worse at in college.
Wasn't he literally one of the more accurate QBs in college football history?
I watched the first half of the game today, and it's wild how much he's being forced into be a 3-5 step drop pocket passer, when that's clearly not where he excels. I don't think Fields is that good, but far better than whatever the Bears staff is doing with him.
He was one of the most accurate QB’s in history.
My problem was that he was good last year and instead of supplementing what he was doing good last year, they ripped the whole thing to shreds and said “you’re a pocket passer now”. That’s bad coaching. Doesn’t matter what type of weapons you have.
That's the thing though. he WASNT good last year. He was just a good scrambler. People made excuses saying he wasn't throwing because he didn't have weapons. Now he has the weapons and is doing the same thing as last year, except without the scrambling. Watch "The QB School" on youtube, he thoroughly breaks down the all 22 of the last couple games
I disagree here. He continually got better as the year went on. After week 5 he had a 65% completion rate, 4:1 Td/Turnover ratio and was on a season long lace for nearly 4500 yards without a lot around him. He showed a lot of good after the first month, and the hope was he'd take that step....which clearly is going the other way.
You’re including rushing stats for TDS+ yards but nobody is doubting his rushing ability. I said he wasn’t a good passer last year. Passing wise, after week 5,(as you wanted to point out) he was 14 TDS, 7 interceptions , and 156 passing yards per game. If he passed the whole season like that he would have had 2652 yards for the season.
Yeah I am including rushing yard because if you extend out his rushing for a whole season from what he did after week 5 it's like 1500 yard and 14 TDs.
So if you're qbs stats are below for season I think its fair to say he's good.
2652 passing
1500 rushing
14 passing tds
14 rushing tds
7 interceptions 1 fumble.
That's a good qb over a season, it doesn't matter because fields isn't one. To say the above statline wouldn't be, just isn't accurate. It's okay to say fields was a good qb for s long stretch last yearwell also saying its likely he won't be starting for a team after this year.
He showed promise last year. Instead of trying to work on that promise, they threw it out the window. They made him a pocket passer which he isn’t. You have to play to your QB’s strengths. Letting Fields scramble out of the pocket and moving him around gives him easy throws.
Nah he sucks. Dude can"t read defense, can't find receivers, can't throw to guys on the move, can't throw guys open, and usually just stands in the pocket until he gets sacked. If a guy isn't open by like 5 yards (college open) Fields cannot get him the ball. It"s hard to watch.
3 years of Trubisky, 2 years of Fields, and honestly, Trubisky was a little better.
Zach Wilson will be fine as long as he avoids injury. He played in a tropical storm today with a makeshift o-line and people are acting like it's the end of the world. Will be interesting to see how he plays against the Chiefs who just took care of Lawrence and Fields in back-to-back weeks.
the problem was outside of Lawrence all the other QBs had some notable red flags and a lot of teams at the time were desperate for a new QB so a lot of teams ignored the red flags and reached. honestly been the way of the draft for years but 2021 was very noticeable
Honestly yes. Though I'd love to have Fields backing up Purdy on the Niners. I think the Clay is still there even if the Bears have fucked it up pretty bad to start.
I did like Steve Young. If there was a place that could fix him it"d be SF. Unfortunately they already have Trey Lance as a backup project so that"s out.
Oh you are right. I forgot about that. Well maybe they can take Fields as a backup project. It"d be the best spot for him to go. He is a free agent after this season so they can get him for free also. I don't see the Bears picking up his option after this season, they"ll be drafting a new QB.
Pick him and work with him. For years. He's already got paid. Let him come around at 30 when Brock is set to get paid hundreds of millions if he keeps this up.
I am a big fan of Brock Purdy. He is fun to watch.
Yeah, I agree. I think SF would be an ideal spot for him to go and get coached. I doubt it would change much because it is very rare for these QB busts to turn it around with another team. Geno Smith is doing it, but I can"t think of any others. I guess Brett Favre would be the classic example but they gave up on him real real quick (1 season I think). And Steve Young also.
Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie, Alex Smith (mostly a product of all-time NFL worst caliber team around him in 2005 and severe injury in 07 that he continued to play on) and a few others. But not many.
Warner and Flutie both left to play in the Canadian Football League i think before returning years later. Alex Smith is a good one. Although I was never a fan of his.
Look I know I’m biased, but this Texans team really isn’t as bad as people have been making them out to be. They’re still very good bets to finish under .500 but too many people have been making it seem they’ll be the worst in the league or historically bad and as a Texans fan who has seen plenty of 2 win teams, I just don’t see that here.
That being said, the injuries already piling on certainly aren’t helping my case.
Most of these guys went to bad spots and it was evident early on. Wilson is probably the only legit bad QB in this class.
The rest just are playing in bad situations and TLaw seems to be a slow starter
No ones really answering the question though. Other than Trevor Lawrence & Justin Fields who won enough games to at least retain their starter positions but certainly not franchise-saving QBs, this QB draft class as a whole is a big bust. Especially with them going so high up in the draft…#2 has just been bad and #3 has barely even seen the field n had to be offloaded to another team.
I don’t know that year that well but its gotta be uncommon for an entire draft class to be such a bust right? If the talent was lacking that year, you’d think that maybe they wouldn’t be picked so early in the draft? Anybody have a logical reason why that might be the case?
I think Mac is about where most people thought he would be. Trevor was being overhyped going into year 3. Still should be fine
yea I was gonna say Mac is exactly what everyone thought he would be high floor low ceiling
Mac probably epitomizes the current trend of overdrafting QBs based on positional value. Guy would have been a second or third rounder a decade ago, but there was talk of him going as high as 2-3 before the draft.
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That's just kind of a routine stat line for a good college QB on a top tier team though. Fields, Haskins, and Stroud all put up similar seasons.
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I mean I think being kind of a chubby unassuming white dude could have dropped him to the 2nd. I think a lot of people viewed him as more of a product of an absurdly talented Alabama team. Teams used to care far more about measurables than they do now. Also, Haskins and Fields both appear to have been vastly over drafted. I know it was at Hawaii but Colt Brennan went in the 6th Rd and had put up some of the greatest passing seasons in college history at that time. Though I'll die on the hill that Brennan would have been a good NFL QB if he didn't get injured and addicted to painkillers.
Yup all picked in the 1st round, see how this works?
Ok but those are all recent guys and the point was that older 10-20 years ago it was different. I can also point out Russell Wilson. Had an absurdly efficient season at Wisconsin and went in the third because of his height and that was only a decade ago. For his time period Troy Smith was a super efficient passer that won a Heisman and went in the 5th. Recently, Hurts had a great final season at Oklahoma and went in the 2nd. Kyle Trask went in the 2nd and put up great numbers. The list can really go on with guys like Colt McCoy, Graham Harrell, or even Greg Mcelroy/AJ McCarron. I don't think it's a stretch to say that if Mac Jones came out 20 years ago he probably slips to the 2nd-3rd range because of he was chubby in college and doesnt have an arm that wows you.
20 years ago Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers all had worse stats than Mac Jones and were drafted top 11. Again he absolutely would have been picked in the first round.
That's not really accounting for the era though. Passing has advanced and all the stats are inflated. If Mac played in that era he wouldn't have put up the same stats. Rivers and Ben put up absurd numbers for that era and were way more impressive than Mac in comparison to his peers and Eli put up good stats and is a Manning. None of them were playing with two wrs that went in the top 10 and a first round rb. Not saying Mac was bad but there was a reason he was the 5th QB taken. 20 years ago you had teams drafting running backs 1st overall or in the top 3 it was a different era. Shit there was a kicker taken in the 1st near that era.
… and they were all first rounders
college football stats do not matter. traits and processing speed are the name of the game in the NFL. Mac does neither of those things
Processing is why he was taken high lol
I mean they still matter a little bit. Especially sec football
Kind of a weird take. A smart pocket QB with a good arm who led his college team to national championship would be drafted LOWER a decade ago?
It’s not a national championship but Kirk Cousins was a smart pocket guy with a good arm who lead a solid Michigan State team to a co big 10 championship and big 10 championship game in his last 2 years. He did that with a team significantly less talented than Jones’ Alabama team. In 2010 you could get by without a stud at QB so a guy like Mac would’ve gone lower. There was more emphasis on other parts of the game. Today QBs go higher and higher because of how the modern game emphasizes passing.
Brandon Weeden went 22nd in that same draft. Also Cousins numbers weren't in Mac's universe. And it's not like college offenses weren't explosive a decade ago. Cousins Senior year: 267 completions 419 attempts 63.7% 3316 yards 7.9 y/a 25 tds 10 ints
The reason why is because the new rookie pay scale. Now you can draft a QB at 15 and you're paying them peanuts for 4 years. If they can be even a Kirk cousins level QB at that pay then you have money to make a super team around them. Players before the rookie pay scale could sign a shorter contract or demand more money so it made drafting the actual best player more important instead of trying to game the system by getting the best value by position.
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I'm not misunderstanding it, it's just a bad take. There were tons of rumors that Mac could go 3rd overall to SF. He was one of the most efficient college QB's in recent history. His biggest knock was his cast was all-world, which turned out to be a legit criticism. People are seeing Mac struggle in the NFL and incorrectly saying he was a mid round talent. That's just not true.
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It's good enough. It's not going to wow you, but he can make any throw on the field.
I wouldn’t say Mac was overdrafted. The game has shifted over the years. A decade ago Kirk Cousins went in the 4th round and today he’s a $35 million man. A decade ago you could have Super Bowl aspirations with a strong defense and run game. The modern game is so QB focused that getting a Kirk Cousins level QB means you can be a true contender and that is well worth a first round pick.
This is just utter nonsense. He’s putting up respectable numbers with a bad OL and only average WR’s. He also spent a crucial year having a DC as his OC. Get him a solid OL and a legit WR1 (aka what basically every top 10 QB has) and he’d be firmly in the mix IMO.
TLaw will be a starter for years. ZW is the 2nd worst QB I’ve ever seen, 1st is our backup QB Tim Boyle. ZW is worse than Johnny Manziel. He’s that fucking bad.
I still have no idea how Tim Boyle made it to the league with his college stats.
Tim Boyle still has a job? Meaning he’s still in the NFL instead of out of the league yet? lol I have no words lololol
backup QB is way more about being a well-liked dude who knows the playbook than anything else. Plenty of marginal guys stuck around in those jobs for years (Chase Daniel comes to mind)
Ok but Boyle had 1 TD pass and 13 picks during his *entire college career* at UConn.
Yeah, he wasn't any good in college (though worth noting, he then transferred to EKU and was considerably better there, though not actually good). But if you've ever watched him in preseason games, you know he has NFL-caliber arm talent, which was enough for the Packers to initially take a UDFA flyer on him in a 'I wonder if this guy has ever had a competent QB coach before' kind of move. From there, I assume he made good impressions on the right people and he'll always have the "I shared a QB room with Aaron Rodgers for a few years" line on his resume.
Yeah, he's the ultimate "tall-big-strong arm" prospect and managed to turn that into a NFL clipboard holding job. Honestly i'm impressed.
I mean he’s really not there to play imo. There’s different levels of backup QBs. There’s guys like Andy Dalton, Jacoby Brissett, Gardner Minshew, etc. who if your starting QB goes down, you’ll trust them enough to be the starter for multiple games, or potentially even the full season. Then there’s guys like Tim Boyle, who, yeah, you’d let him start *a game* if your QB was out for a week, but if your starter went down long term, you’d likely be looking somewhere else for a starter.
I would understand this comment if it was about Peterman or someone like that. But what has Boyle done to deserve this reaction? Lol guy has barely played any regular season snaps at all. Are you confusing him with someone else?
Look at his college stats, no idea how that dude is in the league.
Yeah I know. But he got a tryout regardless and made the packers team. Being shocked that he “still has a job” to me implies they did something negative that would get them out of the league, like Peterman’s 5 pick game. But I understand now that they’re just surprised he’s lasted this long.
Yeah other than Zach and maybe Trey I think the franchise drafting matters a lot. - Trevor would be successful in most franchises, he's just unfortunately getting ruined - Zach would probably be bad in any franchise - Trey is hard to tell because he was such a blank slate but probably bad anywhere - Fields would probably be successful in a few franchises that built to his strengths - Mac would probably be successful in teams with less of a disparity between pressure & weapons
> Fields would probably be successful in a few franchises that built to his strengths I mean. At some point Fields would have to read defenses. Doesn't matter the offense, because if you get a holding penalty on any drive he would probably turn the ball over or get sacked trying to make back that yardage. Not sure how open you could make receivers for Fields to pull the trigger.
Oh man, I didn’t know the Tim Boyle experience still exists
T-Law didn’t even play bad today. The Jaguars defense was quite suspect.
The oline is going to destroy TLaws career, or maybe Press Taylor’s dogshit play calling.
And if those don’t do it, the continual drops by the WRs will do it
There were a lot of drops by the Jags receiving corps.
He just doesn’t look like the generational prospect he was touted to be, not even close for that matter Dude looks like a run of the mill above average starter in this league, like a Derek carr
I am not Pats or a Mac fan, but it seems a little unfair to Mac since he has probably bottom 5 talent around him on the offensive side and he had a defensive coach as a offensive coordinator last year. He is in a bad situation, like many QBs drafted high and doesn’t have a great chance to succeed. I do wonder what he would look like had the 49ers drafted him instead.
Having watched the Jets-Pats game today (as a jets fan 😞), Mac truly looked fantastic with his decision making. He had maybe 3-4 poor decisions the entire game in the rain in MetLife. I do not want to imagine what could happen if he had a better roster around him. That being said, the biggest concern still remains in his athletic ceiling. He’s not going to be a guy that scrambles or extends plays with his legs, even at 25. If he stays healthy, I could really see the patriots reclaiming a spot at the top of the AFC East. Although this is all contingent on Belichick being a competent GM.
Not sure what to say. Against the Eagles, he was getting pressured near instantly, and he drove the ball down the field consistently in the second half. A lot of people who reports on the Eagles genuinely thought Mac looked pretty good in week 1.
Clearly the pats offensive scheme is fantastic, but their ability to move the ball against amazing pass rushing defenses is overlooked considering their lack of pure talent. I feel like people have forgotten that Tom Brady was not exactly an impressive athlete either. This is not to say Mac will turn into anything close to Tom, but we can’t discount the role the Belichick played in making Brady into who he was.
The first 2 weeks he also had like no offensive line, we had like 3 or 4 starters injured. He’s currently leading the league in shortest pocket time, most QB hurries, and most blitzes faced. And despite all that, he’s only been sacked the 17th most, and knocked down the 13th most, and going into Sunday’s game, he was 7th in the league in QBR under pressure.
Only those who didn't actually watch the game will say Lawrence was horrible vs the Chiefs
Box score watchers are the worst, he wasn’t even horrible today, but that pick was bad and he had a couple other misses
Trevor was the only bright spot on offense today and last week. WRs dropping passes, not getting feet in bounds, and false starts. Doug also had given up playcalling to our OC this year up until the 2nd half. Team is just a mess rn
Pff isn’t the be all and end all but he’s looked pretty good this year and he’s like what the 3rd highest graded so yeah this dude has no idea what he’s talking about
this is pretty normal. Most years, it's only 1 or 2 QBs that turn out good.
For ... decades actually, I figured that 2/3 of 1st round QBs were going to be busts. I haven't tried to look at the numbers lately but I'd think it's lower now. You get the occasional draft with Burrow/Tua/Herbert and it certainly FEELS as though the odds of success has increased a bit.
I think teams now usually do a better job taking advantage of the cheap rookie QB contract and put a good team around the QB during their rookie contracts.
1 or 2 every few years or every year? There is definitely not an average of 2 viable starters every draft.
You're telling me 15 years of NFL drafts don't produce 30 NFL starters?
There are 32 NFL starting QBs but there are not 30 starting level QBs in the league. That's why a bunch of QBs get picked in the 1st everu year: to replace the dead wood.
Yeah and the average QB doesn't play 15 years. Andrew Luck was drafted 11 years ago. You have guys like RG3 who end early because of injury but are absolutely starter level for a time. I'd say there are 2-3 starting QBs per draft on average.
Do you consider someone like Jameis a starting QB? There are 2-3 QBs per draft who will end up starting a lot of games but I wouldn't say there are 2-3 career starters per draft.
I would, yeah. Not now obviously but he was a legitimate starting QB for a good amount of time. Same for guys like Carson Wentz, Andy Dalton, Alex Smith, etc. They aren't HOFers but they were legitimate starting QBs for playoff contending teams during their prime even if they became backups later in their careers.
OK in that case I agree with you.
yes there is. I checked 2012-2021 drafts and there's about ~12ish viable starters. just north of 1 per year on average
I said 2, so.... no?
you responded to someone saying 1 or 2 every year. your first sentence then questioned that. so either you shouldn't have questioned him because you agreed that the average is at least 1 a year, or you disagreed with 1 or 2, in which case you're just wrong. which do you prefer, being wrong, or arguing with someone you agree with for no reason? edit: also, I just realized you said there isn't 1 or 2 viable starters in the whole draft, jot just the first round like how this conversation started, so you're actually MORE wrong, because my count of ~12 doesn't include people like dak, Wilson, cousins, and Purdy. counting all rounds, there is definitely close to 2 viable starters per draft
I will never understand why Mac Jones gets shit on so much he was always going to be a startable guy but never elite and Lawrence has been fine he was pretty close to a finished project coming out of college and has had really bad coaching issues. The rest of them it feels pretty safe to say are busts.
Honestly Mac looks fine but he has very little talent on that offense outside of Stevenson. Mac was also pretty bad last year but Patricia was a joke. If he went to San Fran I think he would be doing compatible things to Purdy. Also, QBs can improve. Brady was kind of thought of as a game manager type early in his career.
It’s so frustrating how BB just refuses to get Mac any decent weapons. The best receivers he’s had in his career so far have been Jakobi Meyers, Devante Parker, and Kendrick Bourne. Those guys are all fine enough WR2/3 but none of them even come close to a true number 1 WR. It legitimately feels like Bill trying to build the team like Brady is still there, which just isn’t realistic.
I've heard a lot of people say that the Patriots need to have BB give up the GM position. I just think they need a new GM *solely* for WR.
Trevor is a lot better than you are giving him credit for.
Box score watchers man
Trevor’s been fine. Watch the games and not the box scores
I think you’re jumping the gun a little on Lawrence after 3 games. The Texans may not be as bad as all that Mac could also end up with a 2nd contract and hover around the Dalton/Cousins line If these guys combine for like an Eli Manning and Derek Carr sort of career, it could still end up as a good QB class
Put Mac on the right team and I could see him being great. Hell, if he was drafted by the 49ers I could absolutely see him having playing at the same level that Purdy is playing at right now. The Patriots are just a black hole on offense in terms of talent, and Mac isn't the type of guy that'll elevate a team beyond that.
Casually end up as two-time superbowl mvp no biggie
Lol fair point, I meant more the regular season play, draft status, career longevity. But I do think it goes to show that a player's level of career success can be largely defined by a couple big games. There is still plenty of opportunity for Lawrence to be considered a big success
T Law will probably be a Stafford-level QB rather than the generational talent he was touted as Mac will be an average to below average starter for 10+ years Wilson, Lance, and Fields I can’t ever see as starters in the league after this season
Mac will be a solid starter for years he’s bengals Andy Dalton he’s the line. Where if your starter worst than him time to start looking if he’s better your in good shape. T law can’t give up yet but he was special in college & the back half of last year 2 starter level QBs is fine
For Lawrence specially, I’ll go against the popular opinion and say that he’s been a little disappointing. He was heralded as a generational prospect. Best since Andrew Luck. He was crowned better than Joe Burrow, significantly better than Tua, and way way better than Herbert. People even went as far as suggesting he stay another year in college to dodge the Jags. With that being said, he’s clearly a good QB in the league and will be a fine starter. But that “elite” upside remains to be seen. With the way people were talking about him, his career should’ve started out like Justin Herbert imo.
>For Lawrence specially, I’ll go against the popular opinion and say that he’s been a little disappointing. I was always of the opinion that Lawrence hasn't shown significant tape to be heralded as a top5 QB as I've seen during this offseason. I thought I was going crazy. However... >With the way people were talking about him, his career should’ve started out like Justin Herbert imo. You cannot expect any QB to average around 5k yards and 40 TD's in his first two season as Herbert did. That's just unbelievable expectations to put upon your QB.
Mac is exactly what people thought he'd be. TLaw will be in the league for years. Maybe he turns it around. It's not like we've never seen QBs improve before. The others are bad though. The covid year really helped Wilson and Lance's stock.
I dont think Lawrence is bad. He's had a few mediocre games to start the season, but he was hardly the issue with either of their losses. He was also never likely to reach the lofty projections they had for him- but he can still be a top 10 QB this year if he gets cooking like he did in the 2nd half last year.
I think you’re a little harsh on Mac Jones. When you look at the list of qbs drafted 15th or later (where he was picked), I think he actually stacks up pretty well. That being said, I do agree with your overall point. People forget, but this draft was thought of as one of the best qb classes of this generation, and people thought there were easily multiple franchise qbs available. Crazy that three years in, there might not be any who have clearly established themselves. It really sucks as a Jets fan because of how much hope we had before the draft that we’d finally get our qb. It seens that based on this list we never really had a chance, and that makes me feel a little better I guess.
T Law will probably be a 10+ year starter and make at least 1 pro bowl, and a couple of these guys will probably end up being long term back ups. Not even a little bit close to the biggest QB draft class bust of all time
T-Law made the Pro Bowl last year.
He was an alternate. He wasn't in the original pro bowl roster.
I mean Lawrence is pretty good and Mac Jones has been solid this year (although won’t ever be more then a solid QB). IMO this class is somewhat improved, on Max Jones back. I had doubts about him being a long term starter going into the year, but now I think he will be. I never thought Fields was a long term starter
The problem with projecting Jones is that we haven't seen the Patriots give him a true WR1 the way the Dolphins did with Tua and the Bills did with Allen.
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I really liked Trey Lance upside. He just never improved. Just imagine if I liked Josh Allen upside and he never improved. He would be trash but he got better every year
I think Lawrence has been a really good Quarterback. He’s better than most if not all from his QB class.
Who from this class could possibly be considered better than him?
1. Idk about today he looked really, but underlying metrics do suggest that Lawrence is going to end up having a much better season than it looks rn. 2. Mac Jones is exactly who we think he is
Lawrence looked fine. People for some reason expect QBs to be able to overcome shitty circumstances every game and it just isn’t realistic.
The COVID year restrictions on the combine and pro days really screwed up teams draft plans, particularly at the QB position
Lawrence will be fine. Ryans/Anderson have HOU defense ahead of schedule.
You are brain dead if you think Mac is as bad as Jimmy
Jimmy isn't that bad though
Bears should trade Fields to a team that can use his skill set. This is beyond negligible.
2015 worse
There wasn’t enough draft capital invested for me to put 2015 even in the discussion. Sure neither Winston nor Mariota were any good but after that the next highest draft capital was 75th overall. It’s a little to early to put the nail in the coffin for any of 2021, but if there isn’t some drastic improvement then they’ll be significantly than most others because 3-4 bust in the top 15 picks is hard to overcome.
Without checking, Jameis and Mariota?
Yea plus Brett Hundley, Sean Mannion, Trevor siemian, Bryce petty and garret grayson
Not sure you can include the late round guys because they never had any type of expectations in the league
I think you’d have to say 2021 was worse due to twice as many 1st round QBs busting
People constantly shit on Mac but he’s light years ahead of everyone outside of Trevor. And he’s been solid imo this year given the lack of weapons.
JF does not get enough criticism. I’ve been saying since day one that he’s one of the worst passers I’ve ever seen in my life. It’s literally like he has to see the wr be open. I go back to that Clemson game where olave was open and he threw a pick. Yeah ZW has been bad , however there have been moments whilst watching where you’re like Jesus Christ how many QBs could make that throw? Then he spazzes the fuck out. He’s not worse than Jamarcus. He and John Skelton and peterman were all worse QBs than Zach. If he was able to be consistent he’d be a top ten qb but he can’t get out of his own head. He needs therapy or something because he’s straight up broken but he has working parts. Plus I hate the people who put this on JD. ZW was the almost consensus pick for second best qb. The niners and EAGLES both tried to trade up for him. The nines did trade up to three and ZW lasted longer than Lance so he’s clearly not the worst. I’m sorry but JF just sucks. The hype over his running was stupid because he can’t pass for shit
Wilson is worse than JaMarcus. Russell winging it was better than Wilson just due to his size alone. Wilson problem has always been he was a 1 read QB. They accused Fields of this and rightfully so and Wilson was even worse at in college.
You’ve obviously never seen Russell play
Fields isn’t that bad a QB, the Bears just coached his QB sense out of him
Wasn't he literally one of the more accurate QBs in college football history? I watched the first half of the game today, and it's wild how much he's being forced into be a 3-5 step drop pocket passer, when that's clearly not where he excels. I don't think Fields is that good, but far better than whatever the Bears staff is doing with him.
His final year of college he basically didn't target anyone outside of Garrett Wilson or Olave.
He was one of the most accurate QB’s in history. My problem was that he was good last year and instead of supplementing what he was doing good last year, they ripped the whole thing to shreds and said “you’re a pocket passer now”. That’s bad coaching. Doesn’t matter what type of weapons you have.
That's the thing though. he WASNT good last year. He was just a good scrambler. People made excuses saying he wasn't throwing because he didn't have weapons. Now he has the weapons and is doing the same thing as last year, except without the scrambling. Watch "The QB School" on youtube, he thoroughly breaks down the all 22 of the last couple games
I disagree here. He continually got better as the year went on. After week 5 he had a 65% completion rate, 4:1 Td/Turnover ratio and was on a season long lace for nearly 4500 yards without a lot around him. He showed a lot of good after the first month, and the hope was he'd take that step....which clearly is going the other way.
You’re including rushing stats for TDS+ yards but nobody is doubting his rushing ability. I said he wasn’t a good passer last year. Passing wise, after week 5,(as you wanted to point out) he was 14 TDS, 7 interceptions , and 156 passing yards per game. If he passed the whole season like that he would have had 2652 yards for the season.
Yeah I am including rushing yard because if you extend out his rushing for a whole season from what he did after week 5 it's like 1500 yard and 14 TDs. So if you're qbs stats are below for season I think its fair to say he's good. 2652 passing 1500 rushing 14 passing tds 14 rushing tds 7 interceptions 1 fumble. That's a good qb over a season, it doesn't matter because fields isn't one. To say the above statline wouldn't be, just isn't accurate. It's okay to say fields was a good qb for s long stretch last yearwell also saying its likely he won't be starting for a team after this year.
He showed promise last year. Instead of trying to work on that promise, they threw it out the window. They made him a pocket passer which he isn’t. You have to play to your QB’s strengths. Letting Fields scramble out of the pocket and moving him around gives him easy throws.
Nah he sucks. Dude can"t read defense, can't find receivers, can't throw to guys on the move, can't throw guys open, and usually just stands in the pocket until he gets sacked. If a guy isn't open by like 5 yards (college open) Fields cannot get him the ball. It"s hard to watch. 3 years of Trubisky, 2 years of Fields, and honestly, Trubisky was a little better.
Zach Wilson will be fine as long as he avoids injury. He played in a tropical storm today with a makeshift o-line and people are acting like it's the end of the world. Will be interesting to see how he plays against the Chiefs who just took care of Lawrence and Fields in back-to-back weeks.
the problem was outside of Lawrence all the other QBs had some notable red flags and a lot of teams at the time were desperate for a new QB so a lot of teams ignored the red flags and reached. honestly been the way of the draft for years but 2021 was very noticeable
Honestly yes. Though I'd love to have Fields backing up Purdy on the Niners. I think the Clay is still there even if the Bears have fucked it up pretty bad to start.
I think the WCO would be a disaster for Fields
He"ll probably be available after next year's draft. Maybe they"ll take him as a backup to Purdy and see if they can fix him.
I see a lot of Steve Young in him. But he needs a lot of fixing.
I did like Steve Young. If there was a place that could fix him it"d be SF. Unfortunately they already have Trey Lance as a backup project so that"s out.
Lance is gone. They sent that bum to Dallas.
Oh you are right. I forgot about that. Well maybe they can take Fields as a backup project. It"d be the best spot for him to go. He is a free agent after this season so they can get him for free also. I don't see the Bears picking up his option after this season, they"ll be drafting a new QB.
Pick him and work with him. For years. He's already got paid. Let him come around at 30 when Brock is set to get paid hundreds of millions if he keeps this up.
I am a big fan of Brock Purdy. He is fun to watch. Yeah, I agree. I think SF would be an ideal spot for him to go and get coached. I doubt it would change much because it is very rare for these QB busts to turn it around with another team. Geno Smith is doing it, but I can"t think of any others. I guess Brett Favre would be the classic example but they gave up on him real real quick (1 season I think). And Steve Young also.
Kurt Warner, Doug Flutie, Alex Smith (mostly a product of all-time NFL worst caliber team around him in 2005 and severe injury in 07 that he continued to play on) and a few others. But not many.
Warner and Flutie both left to play in the Canadian Football League i think before returning years later. Alex Smith is a good one. Although I was never a fan of his.
Look I know I’m biased, but this Texans team really isn’t as bad as people have been making them out to be. They’re still very good bets to finish under .500 but too many people have been making it seem they’ll be the worst in the league or historically bad and as a Texans fan who has seen plenty of 2 win teams, I just don’t see that here. That being said, the injuries already piling on certainly aren’t helping my case.
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It's really early to judge that class
I said when he declared Mac jones in his prime might be the 7th best QB in his conference, if you’re ok with that take him as your franchise guy.
is it a bust class if TLaw is a HOFer, but none of the remainder are starters in year 6?
Most of these guys went to bad spots and it was evident early on. Wilson is probably the only legit bad QB in this class. The rest just are playing in bad situations and TLaw seems to be a slow starter
Trevor Lawrence is not regressing hard at all lol what are you talking about
This draft will go down as the worst in MFL history
No ones really answering the question though. Other than Trevor Lawrence & Justin Fields who won enough games to at least retain their starter positions but certainly not franchise-saving QBs, this QB draft class as a whole is a big bust. Especially with them going so high up in the draft…#2 has just been bad and #3 has barely even seen the field n had to be offloaded to another team. I don’t know that year that well but its gotta be uncommon for an entire draft class to be such a bust right? If the talent was lacking that year, you’d think that maybe they wouldn’t be picked so early in the draft? Anybody have a logical reason why that might be the case?