It's not just illegal.
To be effective requires a lot of resources and knowledge most people don't have, and those that do would prefer the quiet lifestyle they already live vs. "cleaning up the streets" and risking getting killed.
On January 9, 2020, Jones was arrested for allegedly selling Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) to an undercover police officer. At the time of his arrest, police alleged that he and his accomplice were also in possession of about 4 grams of cocaine.
I dont think that falls under entrapment, but i might be wrong.
I thought entrapment was where the police basically persuaded you to commit a crime so they could arrest you, similarly to the female cop who got a school kid to buy her weed and then arrested him.
MDMA isn’t crack. The Methylenedioxy bit makes it “the love drug”. It’s used for various psychotherapies and stuff. Of course, that’s pure pharmaceutical grade, not street pills. Anyway, might be a meth head, but that’s not what he’s selling!
I remember, though I could be wrong, part of the setencing was him being told to knock off the super hero out there. Not sure if it was that or someone claiming they were assaulted because Jones was willing to get physical.
well its also that how do you know the information is true and how do you convince enough people that the police will get involved and bring these people to justice
Criminals also tend to be more used to and better at violence than the average person. Much better in the case of organized crime or gangs you can't join without committing a serious violent act.
If Batman was real, then no he wouldn't. The problem is, what we're imagining is just some guy running around in a suit. Batman is a highly trained and highly equipped billionaire. He has the fighting skill of a UFC champion, bullet resistant armor, smoke bombs, flash bangs, police scanners, and the element of surprise. How the hell would he get surrounded? If he was going in somewhere he'd have already scoped the area out and identified how many threats there were and where they were.
What's the closest real world examples we have of this? Cops. Do they get surrounded and killed on their first patrol? No. Why? Because they are trained, equipped, and have authority.
While Batman doesn't have any LEGAL authority, his image and approach commands authority and respect. Imagine you're a random bad guy and some 6 foot bat throws a flash bang in your face and clotheslines you into the gutter before you can even figure out what's going on. That's essentially what SWAT teams do. It's shock and awe. You surprise them and act quicker than they can even THINK to grab a gun.
You act like Batman just walks around random alleyways in a costume and gets surprised by common thugs.
Do I think a real life Batman impersonator would get messed up? Yes.
I used to know a guy who took the UVic course on batman. A real life human could be batman for about a week, but their workout routine would include smashing their head against a concrete wall.
Scare tissue hardens your body, and Batman being punched in the face needs an extra strong skull. Similar to how those monks keep kicking with their shins, so their shin bones become super strong from all the hairline fractures scarring up.
I didn't take the course, I just talked to someone who did. It's a solid biology course.
I’d imagine less tissue covers your skull than your shins. Can’t imagine how much “stronger” you can make that area. Remember, we’re comparing real life humans to superheroes
https://www.uvic.ca/calendar/undergrad/index.php#/courses/rJSgEd6XV
I heard it from people who took the course and know much more than I do. I'd recommend the course over talking to me.
My understanding is that hitting something hard will cause small fractures in the bones. Those fractures then heal with some scar tissue that is harder than regular bones. Repeat that every month for several years, and you can have super strong bones in whatever area. I'm decently certain that there's downsides to that beyond the fact that you'd need to hit your head that hard that often.
Not medical advice, I'm not a healthologist
But most of the stuff Batman does is only possible in comics. In real life he wouldn’t be swinging from roof top to roof top at night wearing a long ass cape. Nor would he have all those cool toys. He would get killed right away especially since he does not use guns. He will only get so far before he falls off a roof or gets shot by some random thug.
The cape isn't a fashion accessory, it's a tool used to glide and break his fall. If Batman was real, he'd be a billionaire, so yes he WOULD have all the cool toys.
Batman is actually the most realistic and fleshed out superhero there is. He uses his massive corporation to fund his crime fighting by using an unlisted R&D segment of his company, which is only accessible by one other person, Lucius Fox. Most of his gear doesn't even cost that much and would be very easy for him to obtain.
The interesting thing is, the military actually has developed suits that are fully bullet proof from head to toe, but it's not cost efficient to supply them to tens of thousands of soldiers. But a single man could wear one and also afford one. They've also developed exo-skeletons, which would allow him to consistently use the grapple gun. The biggest problem with a grapple gun is grip. You have to hold your own weight entirely, and hold it tight enough that it doesn't just slip out of your hands. Mechanical augmentations would solve that problem, and it's also something that wouldn't be very expensive to a billionaire.
These tools and toys would cost a few million at most, though the Batmobile would likely cost a hell of a lot more. The suit and gadgets though, would be very affordable to a guy like Wayne.
You are talking about a lot of separate tech that doesn't work together. Otherwise it would be being used.
Yeah, you could get a full cover "bulletproof" suit.
Yeah, exoskeletons exist.
Yeah, gliding suits exist.
Those things do not function together. Like...at all. And you CERTAINLY wouldn't have anywhere near the mobility Batman has if you did utilize them. You definitely couldn't use any of the martial arts either.
He's the most realistic and fleshed out superhero, but he's still a fictional superhero doing fictional superhero things. It's a wayyyyy lower barrier of suspended realism with Batman than other superhero's, but there's still some suspension of realism happening there.
Even individually the toys need work. Not including the impossibility that is wielding them together, not including the impossibility that even if you could, they would intrinsically make other aspects of his character impossible.
1. The bulletproof suit. If he wants to move semi-freely in it, it isn't going to withstand rifle caliber, and it won't withstand repetitive firing. Go watch any videos on bulletproof armor to see it in action.
If we restrict his mobility, he can tank higher caliber rounds and more volume of small caliber before failing. But the kinetic energy alone is going to fuck him up massively.
2. Exoskeletons. They're bulky. They're not fast. They're not designed to be attacked. They will fail under extreme conditions like a battle.
3. Gliding suit. These don't work for short distances and under every condition. They definitely don't work like his cape. And any excess weight will make them more and more less effective.
Batman is cool as fuck...but come on
The only realistic part about him is the way he commits white collar crime by stealing his investors' money by taking stuff from the company and then using it to beat up the poor people.
Cops have support and other cops backing them up. They do get overwhelmed but they can call backup. In busy city's there are other cops patrolling fairly nearby so when things get crazy they can assist each other in a few minutes.
If things go south a Batman style vigilant would just get killed.
They probably also wouldn't be able to go anywhere without people calling the cops on him. For being a heavily armed masked weirdo lurking in the dark.
Cops don't survive because of backup. It's because of their approach to situations. Backup is usually minutes away.
So if the premise is "Batman would just get surrounded and shot" then backup wouldn't matter because that's a scenario that would play out very quickly. You'd have to duck down in cover hoping bullets don't hit you, until help arrives. A cop isn't in any better of a spot there than Batman would be. And cops are usually outfitted with light armor, only capable of stopping small pistol rounds and essentially useless against rifles.
The reason they survive is because they go in with information, training, and tactics. The things people usually criticize them for "Why does that cop have his hand on his gun, why are they shining a flashlight in the window" etc.
Your last point is a different discussion entirely.
First rule of "it's largely illegal" is "don't be high profile"
This is how a mild-mannered sysadmin fights crime on the streets of San Jose California wearing an armored furry suit and carrying a belt full of gadgets, sporting goods and weapons.
He doesn't even have a name. The locals just call him... El Perrito Azul.
had to check the subreddit I'm in, but there's also the Batman of San Jose who goes around to homeless encampments and brings them water, coordinates gofundmes for them, and had an online following!
Well, if any of that's illegal, capitalism should be destroyed immediately because it can't be fixed.
I guess you don't have to be a vigilante to be a superhero.
Every criminal batman leaves tied up outside a police station would get off because the lawyers would argue his rights were violated by a sanctioned agent of the police, who didn't read him his Miranda warnings along with an insane number of other violations.
They (the police) would then be sued into oblivion.
And before anyone says, "he isn't sanctioned by the police". Feel free to bring that up in court. Any lawyer is going to put every single officer they can find on the stand and ask them what that GIANT SPOTLIGHT WITH THE BAT is doing on the roof of the police station.
And he's not even dropping them off with evidence that they committed any sort of crime. He's dropping off some random people that he beat the shit out of, broke the bones of, and occasionally tortured/forcibly coerced information out of. Batman's the only witness, get him on the stand. Oh, you can't find him or get him to answer questions? Welp, guess the prosecution doesn't have anything, not guilty it is.
Meanwhile, they've all got medical bills from some psycho who beat the crap out of them and broke their bones. How exactly are they going to pay for that, some minimum-wage gig? They pretty much have to go back to crime just to pay for the physical rehab.
There's a Spider-Man comic where that actually happens - Spider-Man's beaten some bad guy and is complaining that he doesn't understand how they were back on the street already after he beat them last time.
And a passer by points out to him that if all he's doing is tying them up and leaving them for the police, the police are just going to help them down and let them go since 'being beaten up by some lunatic in a spider costume' isn't grounds for arrest.
Phoenix Jones was a Seattle based masked vigilante who tried this and I think they had a little squad of vigilantes. They mostly just beat up homeless people.
He’s currently in prison for selling drugs.
Which was honestly the best part. The super Villain was a better person than him. Apparently he was part of some kids make a wish where the kid save some hostage from him after a silly string fight.
The first story I remember about his alleged crime fighting was that he pepper sprayed a bunch of people for having an argument (not a physical fight) outside a bar, while shouting "I'm a superhero!" He also once went "undercover" at a protest, pepper sprayed a bunch of random people, and claimed that he had stopped a plot to bomb city hall. Basically, the dude was really into pepper spraying people who weren't doing anything illegal.
Then it turned out his secret identity, Ben Fodor, was a notorious coke and MDMA dealer, who accepted payments via Venmo. All the articles about his arrest mentioned how one witness remarked that they were amazed he hadn't been caught sooner.
One of the other members of Rain City Superheroes made a [YouTube video about his time there](https://youtu.be/1igWy6ljg4Y). About 10 years after the group disbanded.
Why would you expect a masked madman to succeed well enough to become high-profile? We *have* had masked madmen try to be vigilantes before. They typically end up dead or arrested within a matter of weeks.
The real problem is anyone willing to put on a costume and go fight crime is probably insane. Everyone is prejudiced, no matter how much they claim not to be and he wouldn’t expect a lawyer to become a vigilante. Imagibe a vigilante starts a physical altercation or attempts a citizens arrest on someone who didn’t commit a crime or didn’t commit a violent felony. they can go to jail along with the supposed perpetrator.
Got an example for you, I live in Vermont, and last year there was a video where three or four local men roughed up a shoplifter in a Home Depot parking lot in Rutland, VT. They knew them and knew that he had just stolen a large amount of power tools since he’s been in and out of jail most of his life and it’s a small town. Pretty open and shut.
Problem is they could’ve killed him by throwing him to the ground and kicking him. The man had probably committed a felony based on the value of the items, but it was a nonviolent felony, he didn’t pose a danger to the community. These men could have faced charges. Worse what is the shoplifter had a gun or knife? He’s being attacked by three or four men and didn’t start the fight nor fight back. If they continued beating him, he’d have a pretty good argument for using self-defense. Because kicking someone on the ground is not citizens arrest.
Our police system is much more competent than in TV. Criminals are also way dumber in RL.
A lot of Police work is just waiting around for criminals to mess up. Because they do. Constantly.
Every time I see a criminal fuck up in a seemingly obvious way I’m done step closer to thinking “you know what, I’m smarter than that guy, I could do crime and get away with it”
Good thing I’m lazy
It was a whole thing in the late 200s/ early 2010s. Phoenix Jones was one of a number of real life super heroes out there trying to do stuff.
This inspired a couple of films - Super (2010) starring Rain Wilson and Eliot Page and Defendor (2009) starring Woody Herrelson
Most ideologies which would support this also push people towards attacking minorities.
Plenty of mass shooters fancy themselves as vigilanties.
Many more join the police. Have you noticed how many of them love to think of themselves as the Punisher?
The Punisher himself has stated in the comics that any cop who acts like him would meet the same fate as any other criminal.
Frank knows what he is, and he's not about to let anyone else become like him, least of all those whom, if they did their jobs right, would prevent people like him from existing in the first place.
The only high profile vigilantes I’ve ever seen in the news are the one’s that went around maiming and killing convicted sex offenders. All of them made the news because they were arrested themselves. I don’t think there’s ever going to be an enduring career path for an individual trying to break into vigilantism.
Using the local sex offender registry as a hit list only works twice before the cops have a connection between your victims and a list of your next targets.
I'm surprised it goes on for as long as it sometimes does, and I'm surprised we don't see it attempted more often.
There are the 1980s Franciscan priest murders that were never solved. Both priests were murdered. Little is known about the first priest. But the second was accused of sexual abuse against children. He was found murdered in his car in which he had $1200 in it. Because the murderer didn't take the money it's believed that it was a vigilante killing and not a robbery gone wrong.
It is illegal and largely ineffective. If you go around beating people up and murdering them as a random citizen then you are a criminal yourself. And if you go around randomly investigating it is likely you will spoil crime scenes and let bad guys off the hook.
>and largely ineffective.
Also because, whatever "superpower" you have that you use as a vigilante, you could help far more people if you *weren't* using that power for vigilantism.
Whatever money you'd spend on your "equipment" would help far more people if you put it towards charity and/or social programs. Whatever talent you have that you think would help you to catch/stop criminals, that talent would help more people if you put it to work in other ways.
Consider: Peter Parker could completely change the face of infrastructure and economic development, particularly in impoverished countries, if he released the formula for his web-fluid for use in construction. That alone would already help *far* more people than he'll ever save as a vigilante.
And yeah, obviously that isn't a realistic example, but the logic still applies even if your personal talents aren't likely to completely change the face of an entire industry.
I mean if you put five dischargers on one person's body, and make them automatically go off if it detects falling, you would save countless people from falling deaths.
Batman is the biggest offender. He could invest his billions into Gotham and crime would disappear pretty fast. Instead he lets the wealth inequality continue so he can get over his trauma by beating up criminals that he creates.
Wayne Corporation canonically owns and fully funds Arkham Asylum, and has a work program for villains' goons who go legit.
Batman's biggest problem isn't Batman, it's writers who refuse to let Gotham change.
To be quite fair, in most continuities he starts out fairly low tech, he has his suit/armor, his gadgets and little else... what could all of that cost, a million at most? that's a drop in the bucket for him
He does. I don't know any batman media that shows Wayne company workings but doesn't show him being very openly philanthropic. Every animation that has Bruce Wayne's day to day stuff has him hosting charities and donating to orphanages. The majority of his batmanning is him taking down organized crime syndicates not beating up a dude who robbed a bodega.
The only time you don't see it is when they just straight up don't show Wayne Enterprises at all.
This is what happens when people get all their batman lore from tiktok skits
I think this is an interesting question, and I have come to the conclusion that one the marks of a civilized society is the lack of vigilantes.
I served in Iraq a few times, and one tour in 2007 I was living in a farming and fishing village in the Sunni Triangle, just south of Haditha.
We absolutely had vigilantes, and they were necessary. At the time, Al Quaeda cells were trying to infiltrate villages, killing any local that stood up to them. The villages that did the best, had vigilante killers that protected their people. If Al Quaeda (or some local criminals) tried to move in, and hurt any locals, within days these outsiders would be killed and their bodies usually left visible, on the outskirts of the village, as a warning to others.
Myself, as an outsider and “invader” got to know some of them pretty well, mostly because I was also sent in to hunt down Al Quaeda cells, so at least while I was there, we were fighting for the same thing. I have to say, local vigilantes were much more effective at taking out Al Quaeda cells with no civilian casualties than any US special ops teams.
In the US, or any developed society, there are police and military to handle would be terrorists trying to take over a town. There are courts and jails to deal with them as well.
Local vigilantes just kill people.
I'll never voluntarily go fight a war to kill someone over whatever the political flavor of the day is, but if someone comes to where I live and tries to move in, i've been prepared for this my whole life. I know every spot, every hill, every tree, every ditch, every bridge, every building. I have access to any resource I may need. And there are millions of people just like me out there. I hope I never have to be that guy.
Pretty much any contribution they make won't be permissable in court, and therefore will work in the favor of criminals.
There's also the issue of the realities of what such a lifestyle would entail. Most people have full time jobs. We just accept that Batman seemingly never sleeps, but that's not feasible in reality. For most people they need rest to keep working and keep a roof over their head. Add in the consideration that each outing would end in some degree of injury that would require a recovery period, and it shows how unsustainable such activities would be.
But there are vigilante organizations that are effective. The Guardian Angels, the Black Panthers, many modern street gangs, etc. Vigilantism generally takes the form of a united community defense movement, and these have been historically impactful to varying degrees. It's easier to do this kind of thing when you have numbers, and an organizational structure that doesn't cooperate with the outside authorities that have historically failed ones community.
The fact that Batman never sleeps is the least unrealistic thing about him tbh. His body has accumulated so much trauma that by now he should literally be incapable of getting out of bed.
“What does it take to be Batman?”
“Well, lots of training, and working out. Lots of money for gadgets and the suit. A proper diet. And, and I can’t stress this enough: a 40:60 mix of intravenous cocaine and heroin, 3-4x per day.”
Pretty much every high-profile vigilante - be it an individual or a group - that I've ever heard of has wound up becoming full-blown criminals. Ben Fodor, aka Phoenix Jones, had a reputation for pepper spraying innocent people, and turned out to be a drug dealer. A bunch of the civilian militias which formed in Mexico to fight cartels, wound up turning into cartels themselves.
The whole history of lynchings in the US? Vigilantes. The most famous vigilante organization I can think of from history is the freaking KKK.
The Tulsa Race Massacre occurred because a vigilante mob was prevented from murdering a black shoeshiner in custody for "assaulting" a white woman (re: he stumbled and accidentally bumped into her in an elevator).
That was Phoenix Jones, who modeled himself as a full-blown real-life superhero, costume and all.
As far as I know, his greatest feat of heroics was stopping a car theft.
He got busted for selling drugs with his wife, if I recall
This is funny, years ago I asked this question.
I have the answer now because I work in law enforcement and it’s simple.
1. Unless you live in a big big big city (ala New York or Los Angeles) you’re not gonna be stumbling upon crimes often and if you do, what is it? Is it Johnny selling Adam meth again for the 3rd time this week? Does Johnny deserve to be beaten to a pulp because Adam is an addict that wants what Johnny is selling? Does Adam deserve to be beaten to a pulp because he has an addiction?
2. A lot of times in movies and shows you see the vigilante have a police scanner. Might as well throw that idea out the window because let me tell you, unless you are right next to where the call is then you ain’t making it. Little known secret, police have these cool flashing lights on top of their car that lets them get across an entire city in minutes. You’re not beating them there. And if you do, you’re definitely not beating them there, beating up the criminal, and leaving.
3. It’s not how the criminal Justice system works. Sure, you may beat up Johnny and scare him from selling meth, but you’re not gonna get him arrested. Any drugs found on him he will say was planted. You go to a house that called about a domestic, you beat up the husband who is threatening his wife, now they’re less concerned about Sally and Austin who have this every week but now they’re concerned about the agg assault you committed by breaking Austin’s leg.
4. A big part of this line of work is communication and understanding your community. All of them, including the ones you arrest. Say the vigilante broke in and broke Austin’s leg but maybe what he doesn’t realize is the reason Austin was holding a lamp was because when Sally is off her meds she becomes psychotic and has violent episodes. Maybe he wasn’t the aggressor. Maybe she attacked him. Maybe instead of breaking breaking Adam’s fingers for buying meth, we could get him a rehab to try to get clean. And maybe we will try that every time because it’s important to show Adam that if I, a stranger, isn’t going to give up on him then he shouldn’t give up on himself.
5. You’re not always gonna be right. Have you seen the media? Despite cops having thousands upon thousands of interactions daily, most are fine or even good, but when you mess up that one time, or someone else puts on the costume, you’re the villain. Cops get this, we don’t do what we do for public opinion. We do what we do despite public opinion. But this leads into the last and biggest thing -
6. You don’t have the backup. And I don’t just mean physically but at all. Cops wouldn’t be able to do what we do if it wasn’t for each other, funding, and a community that hopefully supports you. Without all of that, you will fail. If you don’t have your brothers and sisters by you, you will mentally give out. If you don’t have the funding then you won’t have what’s needed to protect people. And if you don’t have the support, then you aren’t helping anyone. You’re just scaring everyone.
Edit: also if we are talking vigilantes like The Punisher than the persons just a psychopath and needs to be locked behind bars. People deserve a chance to sit on trial and plead their case, no matter how despicable. No body has a right to take that from someone else (unless in self defense).
I really appreciate the well-reasoned approach here and the deliberate pointing out of the moral ambiguity of many crimes as well as the law of unintended consequences with intervention. If only life were so simple.
Most criminals are victims. I wish life was like a comic and the bad guys are just bad guys and good guys are just good guys. Unfortunately in real life it’s not that simple. The guy who sells meth down the road probably only sells meth because his momma sold meth and it’s all he knows. The guy who is buying pills and fentanyl was probably overprescribed pain meds after a high school football injury and is now serving his addiction. The girl who is tweaking out and losing her mind on the side of the road is probably so burnt out from drugs that she will never recover, and she probably started doing more drugs because as her mind started deteriorating men probably started taking advantage of her. The public drunk who is getting irritate with business owners and fighting cops every week is probably getting drunk because the VA refuses to help him with his PTSD so he feels abandoned. Etc etc.
Not every crime you can sympathize with, not every criminal deserves sympathy. But you have to be able to look at everyone and try to understand or else you do them a disservice. You can’t help a community you don’t know.
I really appreciate your ideas on this matter. Little is simple in this life.
While I am not particularly religious, I do like Matthew 7:
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. ^(2) For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
^(3) “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? ^(4) How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? ^(5) You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
The way I take this is to remember that if I was that person, with those exact genetics, and that exact set of experiences, that exact upbringing, that I would not do anything different.
As a species we seem entirely happy to look at others and say "Well I would never do THAT!", without knowing a thing about those circumstances. This is not to excuse bad behavior. It is merely a road to compassion and empathy.
Good list, but I would nitpick one thing: The idea of vigilantes (in movies,) at least, isn't to get crooks arrested or convicted (necessarily.) It's to frighten or batter them so that they won't commit crimes again. They would, in theory, be too scared to do crime again even if they never see a day in prison.
If you're spending your time actively trying to put people in jail, even if it's just by punching people you see commit crimes, any lifetime you have in jail will be measurable with an hourglass.
Because super hero movies are actual BS.
In RL, they've be arrested. Having powers isn't any different than owning weapons.
You know those scenes where they walk into a bar and beat on a guy for trying to do something sleezy? Ya, jail. You go to jail for that.
Everyone with the means to be a Batman in real life is either Lex Luthor or a philanthropist - a science/humanitarian vigilante, if you will. But in this model, 99% are Lex Luthors.
Vigilantes like Batman have what is called “plot armor”. They are integral to the plot of the movie so they can’t die. They can be hurt, but the plot armor means they won’t die. Shot in the chest 37 times? Nah he had a pocket watch that took the brunt of it. He heals in like three scenes.
But in real life, there is no plot armor. Vigilantes get killed.
So when you say vigilante do you mean super hero? Most of the comments seem to think that's what vigilantism is. Cause most vigilantes are just regular ass criminals, there are a bunch of them, they happen all the time, and they go to jail for murder or are killed by the police. Chris Dorner is prob the most high profile vigilante case that is along the lines of what you think a vigilante is.
When 2 boomer ass neighbors get in an argument over some perceived property line slight and one shoots the other, that's vigilantism.
Unless you have the resources of people like Bruce Wayne in real life, then its too damn risky. Second, its an easy way to put a target behind your back and you will put your family and loved ones at risk.
Just like what everyone else had mentioned, its an easy way to get stabbed or get a bullet in the head.
Not worth it. You can only be effective at it if you are at peak physical condition, fast reflexes(if you can move that fast), is really good in multiple disciplines of martial arts, and is an expert in handling weapons and guns.
We can have a real life Punisher. But the thing is, no one is that crazy or just too damn driven to do that.
Because the government doesn't want to encourage that kind of behavior. Seattle had a superhero/vigilante named Phoenix Jones. They quit covering him for that exact reason. On a related note, it makes you wonder why they cover mass shooters in such detail.
Historically nobody but the main character in vigilante movies can hit the broad side of a barn when shooting guns. This is not how the real world works and most would die quickly
Lol because life is real and comic books are not. Also how would you even find the crimes? Like you are going to sit at 1 corner waiting? Or listen to police scanners and show up? Yeah hope you like going to jail
Well, how would they do that? Be like Batman and wander around the city at night hoping to run across a mugging in progress to stop it? It doesn't work like that in real life. A mugging or car break-in happens very quickly, typically 2 minutes or less. So what else are they going to do, investigate crimes that already happened? Chances are if it's a serious crime then someone more adept and with more resources is investigating in and you're just interfering.
So what kind of crimes could a vigilante tackle realistically? Small petty crimes are hard to stop in the moment because they're usually targets of opportunity and big crimes have the attention of agencies dedicated to that cause. At best you're spending your nights wandering around a city aimlessly for weeks on end wasting your time or getting the attention of law enforcement and at worst you're interfering with a crime investigation or getting yourself shot or stabbed.
Most of the punisher sticker types are just assholes looking for an excuse to assault somebody and pretend they are the good guy.
Finding real criminals is too much like work and probably dangerous to boot.
If you have a crowd of these dicks all you have to do is accuse some random person of anything and they will probably beat him to death.
Being high profile means you are known and are relativly easy to locate, being a vigilante is illegal, an easily locatable criminal (usually) gets arrested quickly.
Because real life vigilantes are, for the most part, just racist psychopaths whose idea of a "criminal" is "any black person walking around at night in an area where I think they shouldn't be"
It is a no win. Sure, you are taking out AHs but then the cops are also after you. You would have to be so careful that you take out those that no one is going to miss. And they disappear completely.
So, in that case, maybe some one is being a vigilante, but because no one knows people are missing, then no one knows it is happening.
Because a real life Batman would have gone about a week before he had his cowl pulled down over his face while a couple of crackheads broke his legs with a tire iron, thus ending his career.
Because real life isn't a movie. There will be consequences both legal and physical. You could easily get killed doing that kinda shit and tbh who wants to? Stopping someone from robbing a company who would pay their employees less if they could? Fuuuuck em
There are plenty of vigilantes out there. 1/6 exposed thousands of vigilantes. Those people threatening/committing violence against women's health clinics, Drs, politicians, judges, jurors, etc are vigilantes.
Vigilantes are NOT heroes. They are criminals.
Start with the fact that it is illegal. Then, also consider the fact that to actually be an effective one like in the movies, someone would need a lot of specialized training, equipment and resources.
So you'd have to be from a pretty wealthy family, willing to spend years of your life training in the skills you would need, then engage in an illegal activity which puts you at personal extreme risk.
Unless the Vigilante is willing to be a mass murderer as well, they're not even getting crime off the streets. Because there would be no legal way to prosecute criminals caught by a vigilante. Any evidence could easily be planted or fake from a legal perspective.
And they would have to live their entire life with no friends, family or partners. All of whom would become targets. Especially if they went the mass murder route.
All assuming the Vigilantes weren't killed pretty quickly in their first real fights.
That's who I was thinking of when I wrote that.
But in real life, that's insanely unlikely.
"Sure, I have untold billions of dollars. But rather than fly into space, or visit exotic places on Earth, I'd much rather put my life at risk, over and over again, to make absolutely no difference in crime."
Well, we do/did. Vigilantes in real life don't tend to act like batman or the punisher. People who get radicalized to that point are normally insane, and they tend to be highly bigoted towards minorities. "Vigilante justice" tends to lead to school shootings, church shootings, bombing of minority neighborhoods, kidnapping minority children, mass shootings, gay bashing, the lynching black people, killing the disabled, beating women, shooting immigrants (illegal and legal), etc etc etc. That's why we don't have many vigilantes. People who get that radicalized, especially in that specific way, don't tend to be able to keep the facilities that would lead to them doing good, and so they mostly do shootings and hate crimes.
Your argument is that, a vigilante is a person that isn’t totally sane and would be easily influenced by bigotry? I’m genuinely curious, I didn’t thought about that. In the comics, people who are against super heroes use the argument that, one person shouldn’t have the power who decide who is right and wrong and that absolute power corrupts everyone.
Well yeah, it's one reason I kinda like the Punisher. Cause while he is a vigilante and he does a lot of bad shit, he understands the effect his influence has and the mindset it gives people. It's why he's so ruff with cops and random people who try to imitate him. This people think, "if only I was in power, doing things my way, judge jury and executioner, things would be different, things would be better!" And those people are the least likely to realize their own biases and gaps in their knowledge. And so a lot of times, in the comics, those cops are the ones beating up and brutalizing unarmed innocent people, especially if they're minorities. They aren't the ones to think, "maybe there is a socio-economic or historical reasons that minority neighborhoods have so much crime, or maybe some of those stats are just bs because of bigotry, or maybe there's a better way to help them" they just think "I know black people commit crime, that person black, I beat them, stop crime." And that's true with the comics and irl, whether we mean normal people or cops, the people who think so highly of themselves to be vigilantes, are not the people you want being vigilantes
I agree 100%, I used to have bigotry views myself, due to the environment I was created, and I had the “black people do crimes, no black people=no crime” and I thought I was right, I never stoped to think about the socio-economic aspect. I thought the world was black and white, bad and wrong, and the idea that the world is grey sounded stupid.
There’s some bad people where I live, and I think about becoming a vigilant all the time, but after reading your comment I realize I wouldn’t be what I idealize.
I have problems I need to work on, and even though I try to be better, I still hold some bigotry, especially about race.
Your input had me thinking a lot.
It's not just illegal. To be effective requires a lot of resources and knowledge most people don't have, and those that do would prefer the quiet lifestyle they already live vs. "cleaning up the streets" and risking getting killed.
There are self-styled super heroes out there. But mostly what they do is act as a costumed neighborhood watch.
The guy from Seattle, Phoenix Jones , I think. He got in some trouble.
On January 9, 2020, Jones was arrested for allegedly selling Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) to an undercover police officer. At the time of his arrest, police alleged that he and his accomplice were also in possession of about 4 grams of cocaine.
Makes sense that real life superhero’s are just crackheads🤣
Maybe, but police don't have the best track record when it comes to finding drugs on people by "accident" or entrapping people
Entrapment is a dumb ruling sometimes. Like cops not being allowed to stop people getting into the driver’s seat of a car after leaving a bar.
I dont think that falls under entrapment, but i might be wrong. I thought entrapment was where the police basically persuaded you to commit a crime so they could arrest you, similarly to the female cop who got a school kid to buy her weed and then arrested him.
Not all of them. Still plenty of people out there in wacky costumes helping out lol.
Amphetamines can make you do wild stuff. Nazis and Kamikazes were on there during battle
MDMA is a lot different than methamphetamine.
MDMA makes me want to grind on someone for 4 hours then go to sleep.
MDMA isn’t crack. The Methylenedioxy bit makes it “the love drug”. It’s used for various psychotherapies and stuff. Of course, that’s pure pharmaceutical grade, not street pills. Anyway, might be a meth head, but that’s not what he’s selling!
I remember, though I could be wrong, part of the setencing was him being told to knock off the super hero out there. Not sure if it was that or someone claiming they were assaulted because Jones was willing to get physical.
In my country we had "Cleanman" who was wearing green mask and suit, and cleaned up different places in his city
well its also that how do you know the information is true and how do you convince enough people that the police will get involved and bring these people to justice
They don't have plot armor or super powers so guns are much more effective. I'm guessing they die
or get arrested
[Or are racists masquerading as “vigilantes”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Ahmaud_Arbery)
“Leave some black people for the rest of us klan man!”
Criminals also tend to be more used to and better at violence than the average person. Much better in the case of organized crime or gangs you can't join without committing a serious violent act.
Because it's largely illegal to be a vigilante.
Also way easier to get stabbed/shot irl than in movies
If Batman was real he'd be surrounded by four guys and shot to death on like his first night patrolling.
If Batman was real, then no he wouldn't. The problem is, what we're imagining is just some guy running around in a suit. Batman is a highly trained and highly equipped billionaire. He has the fighting skill of a UFC champion, bullet resistant armor, smoke bombs, flash bangs, police scanners, and the element of surprise. How the hell would he get surrounded? If he was going in somewhere he'd have already scoped the area out and identified how many threats there were and where they were. What's the closest real world examples we have of this? Cops. Do they get surrounded and killed on their first patrol? No. Why? Because they are trained, equipped, and have authority. While Batman doesn't have any LEGAL authority, his image and approach commands authority and respect. Imagine you're a random bad guy and some 6 foot bat throws a flash bang in your face and clotheslines you into the gutter before you can even figure out what's going on. That's essentially what SWAT teams do. It's shock and awe. You surprise them and act quicker than they can even THINK to grab a gun. You act like Batman just walks around random alleyways in a costume and gets surprised by common thugs. Do I think a real life Batman impersonator would get messed up? Yes.
He’s also clearly superhuman even though he’s stated to be peak human. No real life human can do 1/10th of what Batman is capable of
I used to know a guy who took the UVic course on batman. A real life human could be batman for about a week, but their workout routine would include smashing their head against a concrete wall.
why would giving yourself a concussion be part of the training lol?
Scare tissue hardens your body, and Batman being punched in the face needs an extra strong skull. Similar to how those monks keep kicking with their shins, so their shin bones become super strong from all the hairline fractures scarring up. I didn't take the course, I just talked to someone who did. It's a solid biology course.
Rabbit hole here I come!
Except unlike your shin bones, your skull contains your brain. You'd have brain damage before you ever get your skull stronger, lmao.
I’d imagine less tissue covers your skull than your shins. Can’t imagine how much “stronger” you can make that area. Remember, we’re comparing real life humans to superheroes
https://www.uvic.ca/calendar/undergrad/index.php#/courses/rJSgEd6XV I heard it from people who took the course and know much more than I do. I'd recommend the course over talking to me. My understanding is that hitting something hard will cause small fractures in the bones. Those fractures then heal with some scar tissue that is harder than regular bones. Repeat that every month for several years, and you can have super strong bones in whatever area. I'm decently certain that there's downsides to that beyond the fact that you'd need to hit your head that hard that often. Not medical advice, I'm not a healthologist
Thank you. I didn’t like that guy shit talking BATMAN.
Neither did I
Or did I
Quick Robin, hand me the shark repellant spray
Batman could take down the hulk
But most of the stuff Batman does is only possible in comics. In real life he wouldn’t be swinging from roof top to roof top at night wearing a long ass cape. Nor would he have all those cool toys. He would get killed right away especially since he does not use guns. He will only get so far before he falls off a roof or gets shot by some random thug.
The cape isn't a fashion accessory, it's a tool used to glide and break his fall. If Batman was real, he'd be a billionaire, so yes he WOULD have all the cool toys. Batman is actually the most realistic and fleshed out superhero there is. He uses his massive corporation to fund his crime fighting by using an unlisted R&D segment of his company, which is only accessible by one other person, Lucius Fox. Most of his gear doesn't even cost that much and would be very easy for him to obtain. The interesting thing is, the military actually has developed suits that are fully bullet proof from head to toe, but it's not cost efficient to supply them to tens of thousands of soldiers. But a single man could wear one and also afford one. They've also developed exo-skeletons, which would allow him to consistently use the grapple gun. The biggest problem with a grapple gun is grip. You have to hold your own weight entirely, and hold it tight enough that it doesn't just slip out of your hands. Mechanical augmentations would solve that problem, and it's also something that wouldn't be very expensive to a billionaire. These tools and toys would cost a few million at most, though the Batmobile would likely cost a hell of a lot more. The suit and gadgets though, would be very affordable to a guy like Wayne.
> Batman is actually the most realistic and fleshed out superhero there is. I can't stop laughing at this comment.
You are talking about a lot of separate tech that doesn't work together. Otherwise it would be being used. Yeah, you could get a full cover "bulletproof" suit. Yeah, exoskeletons exist. Yeah, gliding suits exist. Those things do not function together. Like...at all. And you CERTAINLY wouldn't have anywhere near the mobility Batman has if you did utilize them. You definitely couldn't use any of the martial arts either. He's the most realistic and fleshed out superhero, but he's still a fictional superhero doing fictional superhero things. It's a wayyyyy lower barrier of suspended realism with Batman than other superhero's, but there's still some suspension of realism happening there. Even individually the toys need work. Not including the impossibility that is wielding them together, not including the impossibility that even if you could, they would intrinsically make other aspects of his character impossible. 1. The bulletproof suit. If he wants to move semi-freely in it, it isn't going to withstand rifle caliber, and it won't withstand repetitive firing. Go watch any videos on bulletproof armor to see it in action. If we restrict his mobility, he can tank higher caliber rounds and more volume of small caliber before failing. But the kinetic energy alone is going to fuck him up massively. 2. Exoskeletons. They're bulky. They're not fast. They're not designed to be attacked. They will fail under extreme conditions like a battle. 3. Gliding suit. These don't work for short distances and under every condition. They definitely don't work like his cape. And any excess weight will make them more and more less effective. Batman is cool as fuck...but come on
You do know we have actual billionaires right now who couldn’t even fund this stuff because it’s not possible??
The only realistic part about him is the way he commits white collar crime by stealing his investors' money by taking stuff from the company and then using it to beat up the poor people.
Man you saw your moment to shine and seized that bitch.
Cops have support and other cops backing them up. They do get overwhelmed but they can call backup. In busy city's there are other cops patrolling fairly nearby so when things get crazy they can assist each other in a few minutes. If things go south a Batman style vigilant would just get killed. They probably also wouldn't be able to go anywhere without people calling the cops on him. For being a heavily armed masked weirdo lurking in the dark.
Cops don't survive because of backup. It's because of their approach to situations. Backup is usually minutes away. So if the premise is "Batman would just get surrounded and shot" then backup wouldn't matter because that's a scenario that would play out very quickly. You'd have to duck down in cover hoping bullets don't hit you, until help arrives. A cop isn't in any better of a spot there than Batman would be. And cops are usually outfitted with light armor, only capable of stopping small pistol rounds and essentially useless against rifles. The reason they survive is because they go in with information, training, and tactics. The things people usually criticize them for "Why does that cop have his hand on his gun, why are they shining a flashlight in the window" etc. Your last point is a different discussion entirely.
First rule of "it's largely illegal" is "don't be high profile" This is how a mild-mannered sysadmin fights crime on the streets of San Jose California wearing an armored furry suit and carrying a belt full of gadgets, sporting goods and weapons. He doesn't even have a name. The locals just call him... El Perrito Azul.
had to check the subreddit I'm in, but there's also the Batman of San Jose who goes around to homeless encampments and brings them water, coordinates gofundmes for them, and had an online following!
Well, if any of that's illegal, capitalism should be destroyed immediately because it can't be fixed. I guess you don't have to be a vigilante to be a superhero.
Even if it was illegal, the economic system of the nation that made those laws has fuck all to do with it.
Hamilton has one too, but he mostly drives around showing off his batmobile
Every criminal batman leaves tied up outside a police station would get off because the lawyers would argue his rights were violated by a sanctioned agent of the police, who didn't read him his Miranda warnings along with an insane number of other violations. They (the police) would then be sued into oblivion. And before anyone says, "he isn't sanctioned by the police". Feel free to bring that up in court. Any lawyer is going to put every single officer they can find on the stand and ask them what that GIANT SPOTLIGHT WITH THE BAT is doing on the roof of the police station.
That's true that spotlight is kinda hard to ignore
And unless Gordon is Batman's legal spouse, he's gonna be on the stand for a hot minute.
A husband and wife can not be convicted of the same crime, Michael.
I have the worst fucking lawyers
I'm sure that plot line has been explored. Maybe not canonically, though.
That would be a great defense. 'Actually your honor, as this marriage certificate proves, I'm married to the Batman'.
Legal Batspouse.
As an aside Miranda Rights only come into play if questioned. You may be arrested and not questioned at all.
And he's not even dropping them off with evidence that they committed any sort of crime. He's dropping off some random people that he beat the shit out of, broke the bones of, and occasionally tortured/forcibly coerced information out of. Batman's the only witness, get him on the stand. Oh, you can't find him or get him to answer questions? Welp, guess the prosecution doesn't have anything, not guilty it is. Meanwhile, they've all got medical bills from some psycho who beat the crap out of them and broke their bones. How exactly are they going to pay for that, some minimum-wage gig? They pretty much have to go back to crime just to pay for the physical rehab.
There's a Spider-Man comic where that actually happens - Spider-Man's beaten some bad guy and is complaining that he doesn't understand how they were back on the street already after he beat them last time. And a passer by points out to him that if all he's doing is tying them up and leaving them for the police, the police are just going to help them down and let them go since 'being beaten up by some lunatic in a spider costume' isn't grounds for arrest.
The Miranda Rights only apply for interrogations. If there's a warrant out for arrest, though...
Surely we should have seen at least one masked madman by now who doesn't care lol
Phoenix Jones was a Seattle based masked vigilante who tried this and I think they had a little squad of vigilantes. They mostly just beat up homeless people. He’s currently in prison for selling drugs.
That guy has the best superhero alter ego name I’ve ever heard.
And someone created a super villain persona(Rex Velvet) to troll him.
Which was honestly the best part. The super Villain was a better person than him. Apparently he was part of some kids make a wish where the kid save some hostage from him after a silly string fight.
And it took that for him to kinda trend for a couple years a decade ago.
The first story I remember about his alleged crime fighting was that he pepper sprayed a bunch of people for having an argument (not a physical fight) outside a bar, while shouting "I'm a superhero!" He also once went "undercover" at a protest, pepper sprayed a bunch of random people, and claimed that he had stopped a plot to bomb city hall. Basically, the dude was really into pepper spraying people who weren't doing anything illegal. Then it turned out his secret identity, Ben Fodor, was a notorious coke and MDMA dealer, who accepted payments via Venmo. All the articles about his arrest mentioned how one witness remarked that they were amazed he hadn't been caught sooner.
One of the other members of Rain City Superheroes made a [YouTube video about his time there](https://youtu.be/1igWy6ljg4Y). About 10 years after the group disbanded.
Came here for this comment.
Why would you expect a masked madman to succeed well enough to become high-profile? We *have* had masked madmen try to be vigilantes before. They typically end up dead or arrested within a matter of weeks.
The real problem is anyone willing to put on a costume and go fight crime is probably insane. Everyone is prejudiced, no matter how much they claim not to be and he wouldn’t expect a lawyer to become a vigilante. Imagibe a vigilante starts a physical altercation or attempts a citizens arrest on someone who didn’t commit a crime or didn’t commit a violent felony. they can go to jail along with the supposed perpetrator. Got an example for you, I live in Vermont, and last year there was a video where three or four local men roughed up a shoplifter in a Home Depot parking lot in Rutland, VT. They knew them and knew that he had just stolen a large amount of power tools since he’s been in and out of jail most of his life and it’s a small town. Pretty open and shut. Problem is they could’ve killed him by throwing him to the ground and kicking him. The man had probably committed a felony based on the value of the items, but it was a nonviolent felony, he didn’t pose a danger to the community. These men could have faced charges. Worse what is the shoplifter had a gun or knife? He’s being attacked by three or four men and didn’t start the fight nor fight back. If they continued beating him, he’d have a pretty good argument for using self-defense. Because kicking someone on the ground is not citizens arrest.
The moment you realise comics aren't real life
Not a bad movie made on that subject. Super 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLj_Bzw8n90
Our police system is much more competent than in TV. Criminals are also way dumber in RL. A lot of Police work is just waiting around for criminals to mess up. Because they do. Constantly.
Just give em some Super Bowl tickets amirite?
Every time I see a criminal fuck up in a seemingly obvious way I’m done step closer to thinking “you know what, I’m smarter than that guy, I could do crime and get away with it” Good thing I’m lazy
Literally
The only smart ones they catch are unlucky.
It was a whole thing in the late 200s/ early 2010s. Phoenix Jones was one of a number of real life super heroes out there trying to do stuff. This inspired a couple of films - Super (2010) starring Rain Wilson and Eliot Page and Defendor (2009) starring Woody Herrelson
Most ideologies which would support this also push people towards attacking minorities. Plenty of mass shooters fancy themselves as vigilanties. Many more join the police. Have you noticed how many of them love to think of themselves as the Punisher?
The Punisher himself has stated in the comics that any cop who acts like him would meet the same fate as any other criminal. Frank knows what he is, and he's not about to let anyone else become like him, least of all those whom, if they did their jobs right, would prevent people like him from existing in the first place.
Duct tape bandit
The only high profile vigilantes I’ve ever seen in the news are the one’s that went around maiming and killing convicted sex offenders. All of them made the news because they were arrested themselves. I don’t think there’s ever going to be an enduring career path for an individual trying to break into vigilantism.
Using the local sex offender registry as a hit list only works twice before the cops have a connection between your victims and a list of your next targets. I'm surprised it goes on for as long as it sometimes does, and I'm surprised we don't see it attempted more often.
Wouldn’t be surprised if the cops “didn’t catch on” at first and purposely let them run loose for a little
Also propagating more vigilantism
Yeah, cops aren't known for their dedication to upholding the law. Should be ironic but it's just facts.
There are the 1980s Franciscan priest murders that were never solved. Both priests were murdered. Little is known about the first priest. But the second was accused of sexual abuse against children. He was found murdered in his car in which he had $1200 in it. Because the murderer didn't take the money it's believed that it was a vigilante killing and not a robbery gone wrong.
It doesn’t pay well either. Teddy K did it for like 30 years and he lived in a shack in the woods.
Ted Kord? Blue Beetle?
Ted Kazinski
[disappointed] Oh.
I thought it was Ted McFluffyknuckles
It is illegal and largely ineffective. If you go around beating people up and murdering them as a random citizen then you are a criminal yourself. And if you go around randomly investigating it is likely you will spoil crime scenes and let bad guys off the hook.
>and largely ineffective. Also because, whatever "superpower" you have that you use as a vigilante, you could help far more people if you *weren't* using that power for vigilantism. Whatever money you'd spend on your "equipment" would help far more people if you put it towards charity and/or social programs. Whatever talent you have that you think would help you to catch/stop criminals, that talent would help more people if you put it to work in other ways. Consider: Peter Parker could completely change the face of infrastructure and economic development, particularly in impoverished countries, if he released the formula for his web-fluid for use in construction. That alone would already help *far* more people than he'll ever save as a vigilante. And yeah, obviously that isn't a realistic example, but the logic still applies even if your personal talents aren't likely to completely change the face of an entire industry.
SMBC had a comic about Superman helping more people by not being a superhero and fighting crime: https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2011-07-13
Damn, the people turned Superman into a literal slave.
I think Spider-man's webbing breaks down after a few hours but still yeah good point.
I mean if you put five dischargers on one person's body, and make them automatically go off if it detects falling, you would save countless people from falling deaths.
yeah but consider the fact that being Spider-Man is cooler than that stuff
Batman is the biggest offender. He could invest his billions into Gotham and crime would disappear pretty fast. Instead he lets the wealth inequality continue so he can get over his trauma by beating up criminals that he creates.
Wayne Corporation canonically owns and fully funds Arkham Asylum, and has a work program for villains' goons who go legit. Batman's biggest problem isn't Batman, it's writers who refuse to let Gotham change.
The in-universe explanation is that Bruce Wayne is a philanthropist, but that only goes so far and Gotham is both corrupt and cursed
To be quite fair, in most continuities he starts out fairly low tech, he has his suit/armor, his gadgets and little else... what could all of that cost, a million at most? that's a drop in the bucket for him
He does. I don't know any batman media that shows Wayne company workings but doesn't show him being very openly philanthropic. Every animation that has Bruce Wayne's day to day stuff has him hosting charities and donating to orphanages. The majority of his batmanning is him taking down organized crime syndicates not beating up a dude who robbed a bodega. The only time you don't see it is when they just straight up don't show Wayne Enterprises at all. This is what happens when people get all their batman lore from tiktok skits
[удалено]
Be the change you want to see in this world
Hold my beer :)
*Swan dives off a roof in a gimp suit*
Cue “And they say that a hero can save us. Im not gonna stand here and waaaaait”
Did he aim for the bushes?
**I DONT WEAR HOCKEY PADS**
Happy Cake Day
I think this is an interesting question, and I have come to the conclusion that one the marks of a civilized society is the lack of vigilantes. I served in Iraq a few times, and one tour in 2007 I was living in a farming and fishing village in the Sunni Triangle, just south of Haditha. We absolutely had vigilantes, and they were necessary. At the time, Al Quaeda cells were trying to infiltrate villages, killing any local that stood up to them. The villages that did the best, had vigilante killers that protected their people. If Al Quaeda (or some local criminals) tried to move in, and hurt any locals, within days these outsiders would be killed and their bodies usually left visible, on the outskirts of the village, as a warning to others. Myself, as an outsider and “invader” got to know some of them pretty well, mostly because I was also sent in to hunt down Al Quaeda cells, so at least while I was there, we were fighting for the same thing. I have to say, local vigilantes were much more effective at taking out Al Quaeda cells with no civilian casualties than any US special ops teams. In the US, or any developed society, there are police and military to handle would be terrorists trying to take over a town. There are courts and jails to deal with them as well. Local vigilantes just kill people.
I'll never voluntarily go fight a war to kill someone over whatever the political flavor of the day is, but if someone comes to where I live and tries to move in, i've been prepared for this my whole life. I know every spot, every hill, every tree, every ditch, every bridge, every building. I have access to any resource I may need. And there are millions of people just like me out there. I hope I never have to be that guy.
Yep. Locals knew every back road, river bed, and cave in the area. I was always safer with them.
I guess that’s what makes Afghanistan impossible to effectively occupy
Pretty much any contribution they make won't be permissable in court, and therefore will work in the favor of criminals. There's also the issue of the realities of what such a lifestyle would entail. Most people have full time jobs. We just accept that Batman seemingly never sleeps, but that's not feasible in reality. For most people they need rest to keep working and keep a roof over their head. Add in the consideration that each outing would end in some degree of injury that would require a recovery period, and it shows how unsustainable such activities would be. But there are vigilante organizations that are effective. The Guardian Angels, the Black Panthers, many modern street gangs, etc. Vigilantism generally takes the form of a united community defense movement, and these have been historically impactful to varying degrees. It's easier to do this kind of thing when you have numbers, and an organizational structure that doesn't cooperate with the outside authorities that have historically failed ones community.
The fact that Batman never sleeps is the least unrealistic thing about him tbh. His body has accumulated so much trauma that by now he should literally be incapable of getting out of bed.
“What does it take to be Batman?” “Well, lots of training, and working out. Lots of money for gadgets and the suit. A proper diet. And, and I can’t stress this enough: a 40:60 mix of intravenous cocaine and heroin, 3-4x per day.”
Because vigilantism is dangerous, unnecessary and illegal work. Most, if not all, IRL vigilantes are reckless morons
Pretty much every high-profile vigilante - be it an individual or a group - that I've ever heard of has wound up becoming full-blown criminals. Ben Fodor, aka Phoenix Jones, had a reputation for pepper spraying innocent people, and turned out to be a drug dealer. A bunch of the civilian militias which formed in Mexico to fight cartels, wound up turning into cartels themselves. The whole history of lynchings in the US? Vigilantes. The most famous vigilante organization I can think of from history is the freaking KKK.
The Tulsa Race Massacre occurred because a vigilante mob was prevented from murdering a black shoeshiner in custody for "assaulting" a white woman (re: he stumbled and accidentally bumped into her in an elevator).
The first part of Kick-Ass summed it up quite well. Put on a costume, try to break up a fight, immediately get stabbed and almost die
Super is another great example. Really easy to get things wrong and be in way over your head.
There was a dude in Seattle. Turns out he ended up being corrupted and starting selling drugs on the street.
That was Phoenix Jones, who modeled himself as a full-blown real-life superhero, costume and all. As far as I know, his greatest feat of heroics was stopping a car theft. He got busted for selling drugs with his wife, if I recall
Came here to mention this lol
This is funny, years ago I asked this question. I have the answer now because I work in law enforcement and it’s simple. 1. Unless you live in a big big big city (ala New York or Los Angeles) you’re not gonna be stumbling upon crimes often and if you do, what is it? Is it Johnny selling Adam meth again for the 3rd time this week? Does Johnny deserve to be beaten to a pulp because Adam is an addict that wants what Johnny is selling? Does Adam deserve to be beaten to a pulp because he has an addiction? 2. A lot of times in movies and shows you see the vigilante have a police scanner. Might as well throw that idea out the window because let me tell you, unless you are right next to where the call is then you ain’t making it. Little known secret, police have these cool flashing lights on top of their car that lets them get across an entire city in minutes. You’re not beating them there. And if you do, you’re definitely not beating them there, beating up the criminal, and leaving. 3. It’s not how the criminal Justice system works. Sure, you may beat up Johnny and scare him from selling meth, but you’re not gonna get him arrested. Any drugs found on him he will say was planted. You go to a house that called about a domestic, you beat up the husband who is threatening his wife, now they’re less concerned about Sally and Austin who have this every week but now they’re concerned about the agg assault you committed by breaking Austin’s leg. 4. A big part of this line of work is communication and understanding your community. All of them, including the ones you arrest. Say the vigilante broke in and broke Austin’s leg but maybe what he doesn’t realize is the reason Austin was holding a lamp was because when Sally is off her meds she becomes psychotic and has violent episodes. Maybe he wasn’t the aggressor. Maybe she attacked him. Maybe instead of breaking breaking Adam’s fingers for buying meth, we could get him a rehab to try to get clean. And maybe we will try that every time because it’s important to show Adam that if I, a stranger, isn’t going to give up on him then he shouldn’t give up on himself. 5. You’re not always gonna be right. Have you seen the media? Despite cops having thousands upon thousands of interactions daily, most are fine or even good, but when you mess up that one time, or someone else puts on the costume, you’re the villain. Cops get this, we don’t do what we do for public opinion. We do what we do despite public opinion. But this leads into the last and biggest thing - 6. You don’t have the backup. And I don’t just mean physically but at all. Cops wouldn’t be able to do what we do if it wasn’t for each other, funding, and a community that hopefully supports you. Without all of that, you will fail. If you don’t have your brothers and sisters by you, you will mentally give out. If you don’t have the funding then you won’t have what’s needed to protect people. And if you don’t have the support, then you aren’t helping anyone. You’re just scaring everyone. Edit: also if we are talking vigilantes like The Punisher than the persons just a psychopath and needs to be locked behind bars. People deserve a chance to sit on trial and plead their case, no matter how despicable. No body has a right to take that from someone else (unless in self defense).
I really appreciate the well-reasoned approach here and the deliberate pointing out of the moral ambiguity of many crimes as well as the law of unintended consequences with intervention. If only life were so simple.
Most criminals are victims. I wish life was like a comic and the bad guys are just bad guys and good guys are just good guys. Unfortunately in real life it’s not that simple. The guy who sells meth down the road probably only sells meth because his momma sold meth and it’s all he knows. The guy who is buying pills and fentanyl was probably overprescribed pain meds after a high school football injury and is now serving his addiction. The girl who is tweaking out and losing her mind on the side of the road is probably so burnt out from drugs that she will never recover, and she probably started doing more drugs because as her mind started deteriorating men probably started taking advantage of her. The public drunk who is getting irritate with business owners and fighting cops every week is probably getting drunk because the VA refuses to help him with his PTSD so he feels abandoned. Etc etc. Not every crime you can sympathize with, not every criminal deserves sympathy. But you have to be able to look at everyone and try to understand or else you do them a disservice. You can’t help a community you don’t know.
I really appreciate your ideas on this matter. Little is simple in this life. While I am not particularly religious, I do like Matthew 7: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. ^(2) For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. ^(3) “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? ^(4) How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? ^(5) You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye." The way I take this is to remember that if I was that person, with those exact genetics, and that exact set of experiences, that exact upbringing, that I would not do anything different. As a species we seem entirely happy to look at others and say "Well I would never do THAT!", without knowing a thing about those circumstances. This is not to excuse bad behavior. It is merely a road to compassion and empathy.
Good list, but I would nitpick one thing: The idea of vigilantes (in movies,) at least, isn't to get crooks arrested or convicted (necessarily.) It's to frighten or batter them so that they won't commit crimes again. They would, in theory, be too scared to do crime again even if they never see a day in prison.
Every lynching was committed by someone who thought they were being a hero.
The Klan even had wacky costumes and stupid code-names!
It's a great way to spend the rest of your life in jail if you decide to be a high profile criminal.
If you're spending your time actively trying to put people in jail, even if it's just by punching people you see commit crimes, any lifetime you have in jail will be measurable with an hourglass.
Because vigilantism is a crime.
Because vigilante actions are usually illegal in real life
Guns kinda make being batman a bit harder
Now that Edna has retired, it's really hard to find a reliable source for masks & capes.
No capes!
Because super hero movies are actual BS. In RL, they've be arrested. Having powers isn't any different than owning weapons. You know those scenes where they walk into a bar and beat on a guy for trying to do something sleezy? Ya, jail. You go to jail for that.
Everyone with the means to be a Batman in real life is either Lex Luthor or a philanthropist - a science/humanitarian vigilante, if you will. But in this model, 99% are Lex Luthors.
Aside from being illegal, it’s probably largely ineffective and unrealistic.
Vigilantes like Batman have what is called “plot armor”. They are integral to the plot of the movie so they can’t die. They can be hurt, but the plot armor means they won’t die. Shot in the chest 37 times? Nah he had a pocket watch that took the brunt of it. He heals in like three scenes. But in real life, there is no plot armor. Vigilantes get killed.
Anyone wanna start a crime fighting duo?
Cause if I was Bruce Wayne rich I would give a fuck about yall
So when you say vigilante do you mean super hero? Most of the comments seem to think that's what vigilantism is. Cause most vigilantes are just regular ass criminals, there are a bunch of them, they happen all the time, and they go to jail for murder or are killed by the police. Chris Dorner is prob the most high profile vigilante case that is along the lines of what you think a vigilante is. When 2 boomer ass neighbors get in an argument over some perceived property line slight and one shoots the other, that's vigilantism.
[удалено]
Because it's illegal and they would be arrested for breaking the law
If they do exist, they keep it to themselves since they'd be arrested the moment they slip something.
Unless you have the resources of people like Bruce Wayne in real life, then its too damn risky. Second, its an easy way to put a target behind your back and you will put your family and loved ones at risk. Just like what everyone else had mentioned, its an easy way to get stabbed or get a bullet in the head. Not worth it. You can only be effective at it if you are at peak physical condition, fast reflexes(if you can move that fast), is really good in multiple disciplines of martial arts, and is an expert in handling weapons and guns. We can have a real life Punisher. But the thing is, no one is that crazy or just too damn driven to do that.
Because the government doesn't want to encourage that kind of behavior. Seattle had a superhero/vigilante named Phoenix Jones. They quit covering him for that exact reason. On a related note, it makes you wonder why they cover mass shooters in such detail.
What about Anonymous?
Isn't Julian Assamge a high-profile vigilante?
Historically nobody but the main character in vigilante movies can hit the broad side of a barn when shooting guns. This is not how the real world works and most would die quickly
Lol because life is real and comic books are not. Also how would you even find the crimes? Like you are going to sit at 1 corner waiting? Or listen to police scanners and show up? Yeah hope you like going to jail
Plot armor isn’t as effective in the real world.
Lawsuits. Liability. Injury. Video games
Well, how would they do that? Be like Batman and wander around the city at night hoping to run across a mugging in progress to stop it? It doesn't work like that in real life. A mugging or car break-in happens very quickly, typically 2 minutes or less. So what else are they going to do, investigate crimes that already happened? Chances are if it's a serious crime then someone more adept and with more resources is investigating in and you're just interfering. So what kind of crimes could a vigilante tackle realistically? Small petty crimes are hard to stop in the moment because they're usually targets of opportunity and big crimes have the attention of agencies dedicated to that cause. At best you're spending your nights wandering around a city aimlessly for weeks on end wasting your time or getting the attention of law enforcement and at worst you're interfering with a crime investigation or getting yourself shot or stabbed.
Most of the punisher sticker types are just assholes looking for an excuse to assault somebody and pretend they are the good guy. Finding real criminals is too much like work and probably dangerous to boot. If you have a crowd of these dicks all you have to do is accuse some random person of anything and they will probably beat him to death.
It’s illegal, and as there is no oversight, in real life, “vigilante justice” looks less like Batman and more like a Lynch mob.
Because there are no high-profile super villains to fight.
Because a real life Bruce Wayne would contribute his time and resources to combat inequality and hunger
Being high profile means you are known and are relativly easy to locate, being a vigilante is illegal, an easily locatable criminal (usually) gets arrested quickly.
A bunch of self proclaimed vigilantes showed up at the capital on January 6th.
High profile is literally setting yourself up to failure
The media doesn't want to make a big deal about crimes like that, it would inspire copycats like crazy.
I am Batman
Because they would be dead. Lone wolf fantasy is exactly that. Fantasy.
If you're a "high profile" vigilante, you're doing it wrong.
Charles Bronson passed back in 2003, and all punks (including the Giggler) breathed a huge sigh of relief.
Because in real life, it attracts crazy people.
Because real life vigilantes are, for the most part, just racist psychopaths whose idea of a "criminal" is "any black person walking around at night in an area where I think they shouldn't be"
#cartnarcs
Because jail
It is a no win. Sure, you are taking out AHs but then the cops are also after you. You would have to be so careful that you take out those that no one is going to miss. And they disappear completely. So, in that case, maybe some one is being a vigilante, but because no one knows people are missing, then no one knows it is happening.
Because life isn’t a Marvel comic
Because a real life Batman would have gone about a week before he had his cowl pulled down over his face while a couple of crackheads broke his legs with a tire iron, thus ending his career.
Because real life isn't a movie. There will be consequences both legal and physical. You could easily get killed doing that kinda shit and tbh who wants to? Stopping someone from robbing a company who would pay their employees less if they could? Fuuuuck em
Because they are all villains
Hopefully because we give them the psychotherapy they need
Perhaps because it is illegal, vigilantism means either an individual or group appoints themselves judge, jury, and executioner.
r/TaylorSwiftJets
There are plenty of vigilantes out there. 1/6 exposed thousands of vigilantes. Those people threatening/committing violence against women's health clinics, Drs, politicians, judges, jurors, etc are vigilantes. Vigilantes are NOT heroes. They are criminals.
Start with the fact that it is illegal. Then, also consider the fact that to actually be an effective one like in the movies, someone would need a lot of specialized training, equipment and resources. So you'd have to be from a pretty wealthy family, willing to spend years of your life training in the skills you would need, then engage in an illegal activity which puts you at personal extreme risk. Unless the Vigilante is willing to be a mass murderer as well, they're not even getting crime off the streets. Because there would be no legal way to prosecute criminals caught by a vigilante. Any evidence could easily be planted or fake from a legal perspective. And they would have to live their entire life with no friends, family or partners. All of whom would become targets. Especially if they went the mass murder route. All assuming the Vigilantes weren't killed pretty quickly in their first real fights.
Batman Lore:
That's who I was thinking of when I wrote that. But in real life, that's insanely unlikely. "Sure, I have untold billions of dollars. But rather than fly into space, or visit exotic places on Earth, I'd much rather put my life at risk, over and over again, to make absolutely no difference in crime."
Well, we do/did. Vigilantes in real life don't tend to act like batman or the punisher. People who get radicalized to that point are normally insane, and they tend to be highly bigoted towards minorities. "Vigilante justice" tends to lead to school shootings, church shootings, bombing of minority neighborhoods, kidnapping minority children, mass shootings, gay bashing, the lynching black people, killing the disabled, beating women, shooting immigrants (illegal and legal), etc etc etc. That's why we don't have many vigilantes. People who get that radicalized, especially in that specific way, don't tend to be able to keep the facilities that would lead to them doing good, and so they mostly do shootings and hate crimes.
Your argument is that, a vigilante is a person that isn’t totally sane and would be easily influenced by bigotry? I’m genuinely curious, I didn’t thought about that. In the comics, people who are against super heroes use the argument that, one person shouldn’t have the power who decide who is right and wrong and that absolute power corrupts everyone.
Well yeah, it's one reason I kinda like the Punisher. Cause while he is a vigilante and he does a lot of bad shit, he understands the effect his influence has and the mindset it gives people. It's why he's so ruff with cops and random people who try to imitate him. This people think, "if only I was in power, doing things my way, judge jury and executioner, things would be different, things would be better!" And those people are the least likely to realize their own biases and gaps in their knowledge. And so a lot of times, in the comics, those cops are the ones beating up and brutalizing unarmed innocent people, especially if they're minorities. They aren't the ones to think, "maybe there is a socio-economic or historical reasons that minority neighborhoods have so much crime, or maybe some of those stats are just bs because of bigotry, or maybe there's a better way to help them" they just think "I know black people commit crime, that person black, I beat them, stop crime." And that's true with the comics and irl, whether we mean normal people or cops, the people who think so highly of themselves to be vigilantes, are not the people you want being vigilantes
I agree 100%, I used to have bigotry views myself, due to the environment I was created, and I had the “black people do crimes, no black people=no crime” and I thought I was right, I never stoped to think about the socio-economic aspect. I thought the world was black and white, bad and wrong, and the idea that the world is grey sounded stupid. There’s some bad people where I live, and I think about becoming a vigilant all the time, but after reading your comment I realize I wouldn’t be what I idealize. I have problems I need to work on, and even though I try to be better, I still hold some bigotry, especially about race. Your input had me thinking a lot.
Being high-profile makes you a shit vigilante
Are you forgetting about groups like Perverted Justice? They had a show and everything.