Thanks for your submission /u/qhyirrstynne, but it has been removed for the following reason:
**Rule 2: Please try to use the search function before posting anything.**
Thanks for posting, but this question happens to be one that has been asked and answered here often before - sometimes in the same day! That can get frustrating for our dedicated users who like to answer questions. Or maybe you're just asking the same question too often - why not take a break for a while?
Sometimes questions that come up too often get put in our [Most Frequently Asked Questions list](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/wiki/index/faq)!). Other times, it may just be that we're getting a flood of questions about a topic (especially when something is in the news). Or maybe you keep asking the same question again and again - something that annoys our users here. Please don't do that! Next time, please try searching for your question first before asking. Thanks!
---
*This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.*
*If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
People don't want to hear it, but Hamas as well as Netenyahu and his cronies should be all brought up on charges. And then we can start working on a two state solution to help ease violence and help the people on both sides stuck in the middle.
Lawrence, as in Lawrence of Arabia, spent a lot of time in the Middle East before it was divided the way it is now.
He said to divide it based on tribal identities across the board. He basically said ‘the Shiites and the Sunni’s won’t cooperate, don’t make a country that has both of them. Give the afghani people separate borders from the Kurds’ and shit like that. He basically actually understood who the people are, what they believed, what differences they had, and had an actual solid idea of how to build a functional foundation for the region.
Of course, they didn’t do that at all.
But Lawrence didn't have the authority to make the offers he did, which is why the British government didn't back him up: they'd made a different deal.
The problem with that is Hamas is a belief. Bibi and the IDF will not be able to cleanse that belief out of existence. They sure can and will reduce the age of those who believe there should be no Jewish State in the world to the point that it will be decades before they can rise up again. But Hamas or whatever name they call themselves will rise up again. Bibi will not stop reducing Gaza to rubble until he has sufficiently reduced Hamas to the point that they no longer are capable of wiping Israel from existence. Which has been their stated goal since it was known as the PLO under Yasser Arafat. But he knows that they will be back. Just a matter of when.
It certainly seems like it is nobody in power's interest to halt the war. Netanyahu wants to avoid prosecution for corruption, Hamas makes their (substantial) living from conflict and rage, and Ben Gvir and Smotrich actually love the war. Remember when Smotrich and Netanyahu called Hamas an "asset"? This is what they meant.
Lots of people have an interest in the suffering of innocent people. More than a little bit sick, but that’s kind of how the sausage gets made.
It makes me really miss that Yitzhak Rabin fellow. He seemed interested in actually making peace before he was assassinated by a far right Israeli seeking to make sure peace never happened. “The most successful political assassination in history.”
Yep. I think killing civilians is bad. I don’t know anything about the Israel Palestine conflict and I’m fine with never knowing, it’s not my battle, I can’t do anything, and everything I’ve seen about it just devolves into getting into fights on the Internet. Its perfectly acceptable to not want to pick a side on anything despite how some people seem. My life has been a lot easier since I stopped getting angry over things on the Internet I don’t know much about and have no control over
What do you do about the 3 out 4 Palestinians that support those doing violence. Polls after the Oct 7 attack showed 3/4 supported the attack.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
Remember, Hamas was voted in even though they had an explicit goal to eliminate Israel. Note a majority of Palestinians also supported 9/11.
I don’t like the civilian deaths. I just don’t know how realistic it is to eliminate Hamas without those unfortunate deaths. Honestly not sure Hamas can be eliminated at all.
See the problem with trying to eliminate hamas or any terrorist organisation is that it creates more and more. Like trying to eliminate a bad smell by throwing eggs at it.
Hamas was voted in in 2002 or something. There haven't been any democratic elections since and the average age in Palestine is in the late teens/early twenties. Most of the people living in fact did not vote for Hamas.
We can decry political violence all we want but until we've known generational violence passed down from our grandparents to us, with no concrete change or improvements we don't really know what we would be capable of.
We've all heard this.
I think the point is that, even if it was 20 years ago ( I could be wrong but I think it was 05-06 ), there is *some* culpability on the Palestinian side.
This conflict is fucked however you look at it and it baffles me that people so assuredly think that they *know* the solution or the cause even.
Polling clearly indicates a strong majority in the Gaza Strip AND West Bank support Hamas, regardless of whether they have had elections since Hamas came to power
What are the other options? A toothless PLO propped up by the Israeli government?
Extreme conditions are going to breed extreme beliefs.
If all you know is war and subjugation then of course you're going to want the most hardline folks you can find to change the status quo.
That's not an endorsement, that's just how resistance to occupations work.
Doesn't matter if they support them. There seems to be little alternative, and nothing unifies a people like an oppressor.
Just because the majority of Palestinians may be sympathetic to Hamas, doesn't mean they have yet, or one day will, join them and kill innocent Israelis.
This is the beginning of a very dangerous slippery slope, condemning others for difference of beliefs only. An orangutan* could soon become the leader of the "free" world again, and I'm sure he has a growing list somewhere of people that wronged him, or thought differently from him.
Do not make this mistake.
The onus on the neautral is to promote secularism, not condone mass murder/genocide.
Edit: spelling*
You can't take polls that seriously where people lack freedom of speech. No one can say with any certainty what the majority of Palestinians want, let alone the majority of Palestinians in Gaza. And if Hamas could be eliminated, Iran and Qatar and the other groups supporting them would just look for another group to support to continue the violence.
I'm in NO way supporting their viewpoint, but it's also not entirely hard to believe when you are oppressed, treated as less than, your homes stolen ect, that you grow a deep hate for your oppressors. Hamas didn't just appear out of nothing, Israel is partially responsible for it
This is not true. A poll showed the majority of Palestinians supported the actions of Hamas on Oct 7 and the role Hamas has played throughout the war. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,has%20played%20during%20the%20war.
>the people of Palestine don't want smoke but Hamas does
Well...the Palestinians of 2006 voted for Hamas, which was running on promises to end corruption and wage armed resistance against Israel. So in effect, those Palestinians voted for war.
Most of today's Palestinians are not old enough to have voted in 2006.
Thank the universe! A reasonable take.
We can't pretend like all jews are the Israeli govt. Or that all Palestinians are Hamas.
That people can't see the difference is nuts.
Seriously! This is an OLD fight between two governments, but no one said anything when people were invading Israel, I do believe it’s extreme but we can’t just pretend like this isn’t an old fight over land that’s been established for centuries now.
What's more is that the Kurdish still don't have their own terrirory yet like the Islamic nations do, and the only jewish nation on the planet is on the verge of not existing anymore and is already contested.
Apologies if I get long winded, im bad at being succinct but its in the effort to educate, not argue; This specific conflict is not that old actually. Israel is a very young nation state, founded less than a century ago and intended to house displaced Jews in Europe, thus resulting in displaced Palestinians who were already living in what is now within the borders of Israel. There are many first hand accounts of still living Palestinians who were forced out of their homes which are now occupied by Israeli citizens.
This current conflict however that “started” with October 7 however is a battle of PR on Israel’s side, as the soldiers and military are targeting reporters and foreign aid to keep word from getting out of what they’re actually doing — targeting civilians and cultural centers, namely universities, hospitals, ancient olive tree farms, and most recently Rafa, which Israel told the Palestinians would be a safe zone. Very few if any people saying free Palestine supports Hamas, but the conflict most people outside the Middle East are advocating about started much more recently.
A famous Israeli intellectual and advocate for two-state solution / lasting peace used to describe Israel / Palestine as a struggle of "right against right," meaning that both sides have a true narrative.
It's that **and** it's "wrong against wrong", that both Israel and Palestine have done horrors to each other, and that right now the leadership of both peoples are unfit for purpose.
Jews were pushed out of places around the rest of the world and subjected to pogroms after WWII, in addition to the Holocaust. Palestinians were not empowered when the Arab countries chose to attack the state of Israel. Both groups of people have genuinely suffered - and Israel, as the victor of those conflicts, has the responsibility to the people who were used by their enemies.
You don’t have to support anyone. You can just acknowledge that the situation is upsetting and that you don’t yet have a nuanced understanding of what’s going on.
Personally I think what Israel is doing is wrong. I have no problem with them going after Hamas but it looks like they are going out of their way to make Gaza unlivable. There are no longer homes, schools, hospitals etc. not to mention food and clean drinking water. Leadership is completely opposed to a two state solution or a one state solution where Gazans have equal rights. So what are they doing exactly? It sure looks like they are trying to force Palestinians out of Gaza by making it unsafe and unlivable, which is called ethnic cleansing.
Thanks for this! I didn’t know how to put my perspective into words. Because I really have no idea what is going on, what this war has stemmed from so I can’t support either side, but do know it’s all terrible.
One major problem with the whole conflict and the reason it is as bloody as it is, is that Hamas embeds themselves and their assets with civilians. For example, using school roofs as platforms for launching rockets.
It makes it impossible to go after Hamas without civilian casualties and causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure.
Hamas uses civilians as human shields, which is a massive war crime. International law also recognizes that if civilians are being used as human shields, it’s not a war crime if they are killed in strikes against the enemy. Since if human shields worked, everyone would just do it.
It’s a sad state, but most of the civilian deaths are because Hamas hides behind women and children like cowards. Even making public statements saying that civilian deaths are good for them because it gets them more support, so they continue to set up their war efforts to maximize civilian casualties and then play the propaganda game.
God if only Netanyahu and Israel hadn’t funneled money into Hamas to prevent a secular Palestinian government from forming. Maybe we could’ve avoided this senseless violence.
Israel has directly fostered the conditions that led to Hamas being the reprehensible and dangerous group it is to Palestinians and Israelis alike. To then turn around and rationalize the genocide as the unfortunate consequence of Hamas is irresponsible at best. There is way more nuance and history here than any of us can express in comment threads.
And the Hamas group keeps growing because people are prisoners of Israel for their whole life, being target dolls for Israelis to shoot and bomb for fun, its no wonder so many Palestinians join Hamas hoping they will get out of that prison.
There is no person who would not do the same if they lived their whole life in place like that.
And it was the same playbook before. When the PLO, a secular but "dangerously communist" group stopped being a threat they could leverage in the west, due to the fall of the Soviet Union and a willingness for the PLO to agree to moderated peace agreements, they started funding religious extremist groups as those became the new Boogeyman of the West.
This isn’t really accurate. Netanyahu as part of agreed upon deals allowed money from Qatar to flow to Hamas. He didn’t funnel money or use govt funds to prop them up.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
You're repeating Israeli propaganda.
Amnesty international has investigated and not found any truth to the human shields myth.
Besides, why would Hamas use human shields if Israel has proven time and time again they have absolutely zero problem bombing children and hospitals?
So-called human shields have never once stopped them.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Read through that. It's NATO's assessment that Hamas has been using human shields in every war.
And don't take NATO's word for it, just read what the Hamas says:
Hamas (via spokespeople)
2006: "The citizens will continue defending their pride and houses and will continue to serve as human shields until the enemy will withdraw."10
2014: "The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli warplanes in order to protect their homes, I believe this strategy is proving itself. And we, Hamas, call on our people to adopt this practice."11
2014: "Hamas despise those defeatist Palestinians that criticize the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people...we lead our people to death...I mean, to war."12
Ismail Haniyeh, former Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority (2006-
2014), Head of Hamas Political Bureau in Gaza (since 2017)
2006: Citizens were encouraged to gather at Muhammad Baroud's house (a prominent PRC combatant) in Jabaliya refugee camp, after the IDF issued a warning. Following the event, Haniyeh stated: "I believe that what has happened tonight will be a role model... an example to our Palestinian people and a clear message, that the [Zionist] aggression will not break our will."13
2008: "Israel threatens to bombard houses [in which freedom fighters live], but hundreds and thousands of Palestinians climb to those houses rooftops in the middle of the night to defend those houses."14
Fathi Hamad, Hamas MP
2008: "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry [...]. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly and the mujahideen."15
That you refuse to believe that Hamas readily uses civilian deaths as part of their strategy to sway public opinion and win, really shows how much propaganda has worked, to make you believe that all these civilian deaths are completely intentional, rather than tragic casualties of a war where civilians on both sides pay the biggest price, and especially much more so for the people of Gaza. The IDF makes efforts to tell people to evacuate and leave, and whether they choose not to or are forced to, explains the high casualty numbers, even tho in actuality they are low considering the extreme urban warfare situation. Also, something to consider, is that if there was no Iron Dome, what would the casualty numbers in Israel be? Would that make this a more "balanced" war? That one side invested and spent money to protect its civilians, while the other built tunnels for themselves and says that it's UN's responsibility to take care of the civilian population, should be enough to help you understand what each side stands for.
Amnesty international also says Ukraine is responsible for dead Ukrainians because they're fighting to defend their civilians.
>Besides, why would Hamas use human shields if Israel has proven time and time again they have absolutely zero problem bombing children and hospitals?
Because they're using it for propaganda.
> Amnesty international has investigated and not found any truth to the human shields myth.
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri in 2014 "Our citizens took a bold step by standing on the roof of the house to prevent the occupation forces from attacking" "the fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli warplanes in order to protect their homes, **I believe this strategy is proving itself. And we, Hamas, call on our people to adopt this practice**"
It’s been widely reported for years that Hamas does indeed set up operations in civilian buildings and puts operatives among civilians. They are essentially running as an urban guerrilla force in Gaza. They do so because it erodes support for Israel abroad and because their fighters, who are usually young justifiably angry men, can blend in easily with the public.
Now, this doesn’t justify Israel’s approach to fighting Hamas. Israel is far less discriminating than they should be when bombing targets and capturing Palestinians. Decades of frankly racist policy towards Palestinians has permeated their government and military actions. They play right into how Hamas wants them to fight. And they should be judged harshly for their lack of regard for innocent life. When the war is over, Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership should be arrested and tried in international courts.
Gaza is very densely populated. Pretty analogous to the island of Manhattan. There's no place one could set up military operations that wouldn't be elbow to elbow with civilians
> There's no place one could set up military operations that wouldn't be elbow to elbow with civilians
Except you know, the near 50% that is agricultural land.
“Why would Hamas use human shields”
Read through this thread alone. How many people are criticizing Israel for bombing civilians? How many college kids are calling Biden “genocide Joe” for supporting Israel and demanding the US to width draw support? How many times have the “eyes on Rafah” AI image been re-posted? How many people are now saying Hamas was justified because they are the victim?
If you shot a terrorist who strapped an infant baby to his chest as a bullet vest, you are now a baby-killer. You can’t claim moral high ground or self-defense because EVERYONE will know you as a baby-killer. It doesn’t matter if you prevented a terrorist attack that would kill thousands, you are still a baby-killer. You shot an infant baby. That’s enough for a lot of people to see you on the same level as Hitler.
Using human shields has been a tactic in the terrorist playbook for a while. It works. Extremely well.
Because Hamas doesn’t give a fuck if Palestinians die.
Hamas is an insurgency, insurgent strategy is dependent on provoking a response from whichever group or country they are fighting against, and then using that response to sway more people to their cause
I advise you to read up on the history of the Palestine-Israel conflict over the past 70 years and come to your own conclusion on whether both sides are in the wrong
The British and French allying with some groups in the Middle East and making them promises in WW1 then double cross them (Russia to a lesser extent too) was a large factor. They then carved up the Middle East and formed new countries and border, and forced Israel on them down the line. When everyone started fighting each other and the British they just left.
Saying that most of these things also go a long way back in history, tribes and cultures and religions that have never got on, I don’t have an answer for it, Oct 7th was a horrid crescendo for the previous decade, and I can’t excuse some of the shit Israel has done since. I’m not taking sides, I have no idea what the answer is, other than a big fuck off wall with aid coming from different countries….but the Palestinians need access to a water supply and farming and to try and get them up to a point where they are self sufficient, and both sides need leader that represent the majorities that want peace. If either side doesn’t actually have that majority, this will never end…. If the citizens want violence then they’ll continue to get it
The truth is it doesn't matter who's "in the wrong" because this isn't middle school playground. Not to mention that many of the people who did a lot of wrongs are long dead and laying their crimes on their children isn't fair.
What's actually important is finding a solution that will bring lasting peace. But most people would rather endlessly complain and assign blame rather than actually come up with something of value. I guarantee you 90% of protestors on both sides, if you ask them how they would actually solve the conflict, have no answer or a really terrible one. Most vocal people are just "against" the other side, they aren't really for anything.
A university student should know better than to repeat political slogans without even understanding them. Fanatic chanting from ideologically people won't achieve anything.
Takes a bit more than 70 years. You've got to back to the end of the Ottoman Empire, then factor in the finagling of the European empires (France, England, and others), plus the US. It gets complicated, the many Jews were immigrating to the area at that time. It's complicated, and they're probably not going to stop. It might even go way back to the beginnings of the Abrahamics.
Reminds of the youtube channel "Fall of Civilizations". Every episode wether its about the Roman Empire or the Inca or whatever usually starts with something like "700 million years ago, the medeterenian sea was formed when the land bridge got flooded over"
Soooo...they go waaaay back.
I blame The Big Bang, it started all this.
No wonder governments have NASA and all other big money hungry groups trying to find how it all happened.
Oh sh\*t I probably just started new conspiracy theory by accident.
The key to the argument is whether the UN Partition itself was legitimate or not. The way I see it, the entire decolonization era was rife with bad decisions, many of which resulted in hideous conflict and actual (as opposed to imagined) genocide. I agree that the Israel/Palestine partition had problems, but if you're going to deny it legitimacy, what about all the others?
Part of the logic of the UN system is to deny revanchism and irredentism: These are the borders, live with it. Of course, old empires hate that: Russia, China, Arab, even British... They all remember their glory days and gnash their teeth.
So, while many on the pro-Palestine side wave UN documents around like holy writ, they cherry-pick. To them, the Partition itself created the problem, while to the pro-Israel side, the Arab attack in 1948 created the problem. Look at all the comments about how "700,000 Arabs were displaced" without any comment about why, or what happened. A lot of passive voice. If the Pan-Arab Nation had not attacked Israel that day, a lot more Arabs would live in Israel today as full citizens.
When should we stop? 2000 years ago when Jews were in Israel? Well then why stop there? Let’s go all the way back to the Canaanite’s, it’s their land after all. That’s how dumb that thinking is. Let’s focus on things that are actually relevant and affect the world currently.
Before then there wasn’t an Israel for there to be a conflict. We can go further back and talk about Zionist settlers in the late 1800s but that seems less relevant to today.
Not being snarky: you aren't reading or talking to people outside of your bubble.
It's okay and very acceptable to say "Palestine can be free and unoppressed *and* everyone should stop killing civilians."
The statement "free Palestine" isn't picking a side. Palestine should be free from occupation, and Israelis should be free from bombardment. That's the same side; peace.
True, although depending on who you ask “free Palestine” or “end the occupation” could have very different meanings. I think that’s partially why it’s so successful of a phrase, it can imply a lot of very different goals without having to specify.
I’m sure to plenty it means freeing Gaza and the West Bank from Israeli military and civilian occupation, the scenario that most can easily agree with.
And then theres freeing Palestine “from the river to the sea”, where freeing usually means a scenario where Israel doesn’t exist anymore since they view Israel itself as occupied Palestine. And that’s never happening without some insane turn of events leading to Israel’s collapse, so I tend to be cautious about my “free Palestine’s” without a conversation that gives some context.
Gaza wasnt under military or civilian occupation prior to October 7th. There was a complete removal of settlements and a military disengagement from Gaza in 2005. Now the ethics regarding the blockade is a different story, which Egypt also plays a role in upholding.
I have the feeling this is the core of a lot of misinformation. They try to convince readers that the people in Palestine are the same as the terror organisation Hamas. Which is of course not true. Just how not all Americans are part of any specific political group or even terror organisation.
It is so obviously false I am not sure how so many fall for it.
Have you seen the videos of palestinians bringing back corpses or kidnapped pale and parading them through the streets to other cheering civilians? Not Hamas bringing them back, civilians. Or the polls in which 70% of civilians support Hamas and 80% who saw Oct 7 footage say there were no massacres? Stop whitewashing reality. The ignoring of complaining about obvious falsehoods while spreading them is astounding.
For many Palestinians and their supporters, Free Palestine and "from the river to the sea" means the entire area of pre 1948 Palestine free of Jews and Israel.
It really depends on who is saying it. A large part of the conflict is that the Palestinians believe Palestine and pretty much all of Israel is their rightful land, while the Israeli take is the opposite.
Setting aside the very complex history for a bit, satisfying either definition of freedom automatically includes oppression of the other's people
We've seen that sort of "peace" in Iran and pre-2011 Syria (ergo post-2011 Syria).
At least for "free Palestine" you can argue that you just want the corrupt unelected pseudo-government to have the power (even though that would require a *lot* of propping up). "Free Gaza" is pretty much "Let Iran and its proxies have free reign over as much territory as they can take, keep, and terrorize."
If these protestors were reasonable and knowledgeable, their signs would instead say, "No to Hamas, no to Iran, no to Natanyahu." Because right now it seems like they only agree with the last point.
If someone broke into your house, and you gave them a whack on the head with a baseball bat, you’d probably be really exasperated if the police showed up, said “both sides are wrong”, and went away without doing anything.
(Yes, I’m aware the police have done stuff like that. You would still be mad.)
What makes this situation more nuanced is that the guy who broke into your house is angry because his grandparents used to live in it.
40 years ago his grandparents were kicked out of your house for no legally defensible reason and his family has been homeless ever since. The police refuses to investigate the situation and the government tells him to live in a tent in the desert.
Good example except for the "homeless" bit. By this analogy, most ethnic groups are "homeless" and do not have a nation-state specifically for them and that caters to them, which is why the guy is in the wrong.
The terrorist group of Hamas is in the wrong, that's definitely true. However, Israel's transgressions are going too far to 'both sides' this one.
First of all: Israel is an occupier in the first place. For years, where there's palestinian ground with palestinian people in palestinian houses, Israel will just send a 'peace force' or whatever they want to call it, kick palestinian people out of their house and claim it for Israelites. The Israel border has moved far past what was internationally agreed upon for 'Israel territories as a sanctuary for Jews after WW2'; for the full story, check r/AskHistorians.
Secondly: Israel started out with "we are just retaliating against Hamas"..."so civilians should take shelter in area A"..."Which we will subsequently bomb": They are designating safe areas for civilians inside Gaza and then bomb those civilians. Since this conflict started it's current escalation, Israel politicians have made it clear - actually said the quiet part out loud - that their goal is for all Palestinians to flee or perish, and it quite clearly seems the latter has their preference. It has been acknowledged internationally that the state of Israel is committing crimes against humanity and against the Geneva conventions.
This is a genuine question as I am so ignorant on most of this conflict, but Israel designated safe spaces with the intention of killing those innocent people? Hamas didn't embed themselves into those safe spaces or use those spaces as military encampments?
Again, genuine question, since I've heard both things from both sides so many times. I guess I'm trying to figure out if Hamas truly does use human shields inside of hospitals and homes like people say they do, and, if not, I want to know if Israel has been bombing those safe spaces for no reason other than to massacre.
I have a question about the human shields excuse.
If a group of bank robbers rob a bank full of people or terrorists take a building hostage, would it be okay for the police to storm the place and kill both the perpetrators and the hostages indiscriminately?
If the answer is no, then I don’t get why it would be okay for the IDF to ask for civilians to flee to a safe zone, then kill them indiscriminately while using the excuse that terrorists are hiding among them. It’s insanity.
Right. I t’s crazy to me that people say “they’re using them as human shields” like that makes it a valid excuse to indiscriminately bomb innocent women, children, sick and elderly.
you are absolutely right and to slightly pivot, this is what people mean when they say that some people (Israel, US, the west, etc) believe some lives matter less than others. That excuse would NEVER be acceptable for Ukrainians if it was being done by Russia. But for racist reasons it is absolutely acceptable if its Palestinian.
Have you heard about the incidents like with the World Central Kitchen (easily found on google so I won't link), a charity aid group feeding people, who did everything they were told to and still got killed by Israelis? Apparently the deal was that whenever aid convoys are in motion, they call in and confirm that they are using X vehicles in Y number on Z route, so any Israeli forces that see them do not fire.
The Israelis on the other hand are meant to call up the chain of command to a certain level to confirm fire/don't fire on any convoys they see. They did not, and killed innocent charity workers.
At a certain point, Israeli claims that "oh there was Hamas in the hospital" and "oh there was Hamas in the refugee camp" falls flat when their response to killing aid workers who followed every direction is "oh they thought the car had Hamas in it, sorry"
The Israeli right wing sorts in the government also insist that "there was no Palestine before" (hard to find one quote with that phrase it is allllll over the internet because of how many people think that) and claim that everyone who says they are Palestinian are just antisemitic and moved in after the founding of the modern state to start shit. So I don't trust their words.
It’s called psychological warfare. It’s to send a clear message to Palestinians that there is no safe place, and if they want to live, their only option is to gtfo if they ever get the chance.
Source: my grandparents gtfo decades ago when Israel was terrorizing them. My dad still has the keys to his childhood home in the West Bank, a home he was never allowed to return to and is now in an illegal Israeli settlement protected by the Israeli military and connected to Israel by roads that only Israelis are allowed on.
Edit: All of which are Zionist dreams.
In fact, they have.
Please take a while on YT or other and view world news outlets and commentators not directly aligned with Israel (am not saying go for those that lean in the opposite direction, look into those that use neutral sources - to include internal Israeli organizations, many have been sharing statistics that are unbiased and factual).
They \*have\* urged (and physically herded) Palestinian civilians into "safe zones" and launched attacks on them purposefully. They've attacked aide (food, water, medicines...) organization sites and convoys because unarmed starving and injured civilians were reported to be gathering there for help or to stop aide from arriving.
The "human shield" excuse used has been nullified by multiple international organizations.
Reporters have been banned and more than one have been killed for reporting on Gaza conditions by Israel.
Aide to civilians has been cut off with false (no basis and then proven false on top of it) by Israeli using "but Hamas" excuses.
Israeli politicians have on multiple occasions for years but more baldly lately stated that they are interested in purifying the area, cleaning it of "vermin", etc. speaking of the Palestinians.
Do not take my or anyone's word in either direction on this here. Go and do the digging, it is worth it.
The idea that Israelis have the right to target Hamas regardless if they’re surrounded by civilians is the issue.
US troops waited months monitoring their targets before killing them to avoid massive casualties.
I thought the US invasion was responsible for somewhere in the ballpark of 300,000 civilian deaths though? No offense but I feel like that's a bad example
Palestine ≠ Hamas. let’s get that straight first. you’re attributing the atrocities committed by hamas to palestine. which is incredibly incorrect and exactly how Netanyahu has ‘justified’ his slaughter of Palestinians.
> Palestine ≠ Hamas. let’s get that straight first. you’re attributing the atrocities committed by hamas to palestine.
Palestine is different from Palestinian civilians but Hamas is the state of Palestine, they are the legal government of Palestine. Saying Palestine =/= Hamas is like saying the Nazi's =/= the German Reich.
Mainly because it's a big nation beating up on poor children who's lives they've tried hard to make miserable for decades. It's harder by far to have sympathy for Israel given that you know basically any history of the conflict.
Also, Gaza fights because it is not free.
Israel fights in spite of its own freedom.
If Gaza were actually free, they'd no longer have a reason to fight, Hamas might eventually disappear etc.
I also have more sympathy for Palestine because of what's they've been through. The reason most of them are children is that their adults have been systematically killed by Israel for decades. If I were born into such a reality I might find myself capable of unspeakable act in the name of revenge. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but damn I get it too.
The worst and hardest part about terror organisations is that they hide within the population and use people to shield and protect themselves.
Their is no easy awnser. The same thing happen in Iraq and we know these shock and awe tactics the USA started, and Israel is using horrific outcome for locals.
For me, it is important that you separate he Jewish religion from the Israel state and the same with Palestine nation and the radical Islam group Homas
Is not “everyone” but it is the youth and the reason is because all the know is the Hollywood concept of top dog vs under dog - bug versus small and they THINK the Palestinian are these innocent underdog victims - when in reality is quite the opposite
You’re supposed to support the ending of civilian deaths. Remember also that Israel has the full-throated backing of the US and is a developed country whereas Gaza is an incredibly impoverished and now utterly annihilated hellscape with inhabitants that have no passport and no genuine State. Gazans are trapped, Israelis are free.
https://youtu.be/DF1DJ9MJ88s?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/vQMdUeEX4PI?feature=shared&t=1400
"Free Palestine" has been a movement long before the current war. It's because Palestine was colonized by Israel, Israel has a history of displacing and deeper enforcing the apartheid system. Killing civilians on either side is absolutely wrong, but Israel is an oppressor on Palestine and has been for over fifty years now.
"Palestine" isn't a "side" that is killing anyone. Palestine is a population of many people who are being persecuted and killed. Hamas and the Israeli government are killing people. The people of Palestine should be "free." Supporting that freedom isn't picking a side. It is supporting the right of people to not be killed or removed from the place they live.
> "Palestine" isn't a "side" that is killing anyone.
Palestine absolutely is a side. That side is their government, that government is called Hamas. Hamas is the legal, rightful, democratically elected government of Palestine.
I mean no disrespect, but honestly, your new position sounds a lot like "all lives matter." Yes, all innocent deaths are wrong, but only a few countries are going through a genocide and Palestine is one of them.
It's a very complicated history, which combines the history of the region, the history of Muslims and Jews in general, along with US foreign policy.
To give a very general and broad overview; Israel and Palestine came about as a decolinization of a territory the British gained from the Ottomans after ww1 in the Sykes - Picot agreement. They were, at birth, intended to be two states. There was a lot of history, some invasions by neighbouring states, the Palestinian government was shattered, and Israel has been occupying the Palestinian land since, as well as sending settler-colonialists to populate it, mostly by tying movement to Palestine to government benefits.
The people who are saying "Free Palestine" aren't a homogenous unit. Some are calling for the removal of Israel as a state as well as the deportation of Jews from Palestine (I use Palestine here as a term for the region, not the country, both Israel and Palestine are withing the region of Palestine, but only one is called Palestine, not confusing at all) some call for simply the removal, restructing or replacing of the Israeli government, and some simply want Israel to stop militarily occupying Palestine. The movement also has varying opinions on Hamas, ranging from "We shouldn't tell the Palestinians how to resist genocide" to "Violence against civilians is never justified"
I'm not going to provide my own opinions because honestly this topic has exhausted me. But that's as concise a guide as I can give to the history of the region and the modern Pro-Palestine movement.
> the Palestinian government was shattered,
There was never a Palestinian government unless you're talking about the British. After 1948 there was Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. There wasn't any Palestinian state. (technically it took a few years for Egypt to annex their puppet Gazan government but close enough, they never actually governed anything)
It’s not really that complicated. Here’s a 1902 article from the NYT discussing plans to colonize Palestine with Jews:
https://www.nytimes.com/1902/01/06/archives/plan-of-colonizing-palestine-with-jews-zionists-discuss-problem-in.html
Remember this 40 years before the holocaust, and way before Hamas existed as an excuse to slaughter Palestinians and take their land.
We say free Palestine because it is colonized, stolen territory by Europeans in the final act of colonization in the era of European dominance over the world. Free them from the Zionist entity and give them back their humanity.
When Palestinians resist violently, it is because it’s their only resort. Those who hold power in the world have signed off on their extermination. To condemn their resistance is like condemning a slave revolt as opposed to condemning the slavery that forced them into a position where armed resistance is their only hope. It’s like condemning Native American raids on frontier villages back in the 1700s. It makes you complicit in the extermination of a people.
Wanting a free Palestine does NOT equal support for Hamas, the group currently in power in Gaza. If anything, a free Palestolones decades ago (or all along) would have prevented the rise of Hamas. Important to note that Isareli Prime Minister Netanyahu, one of Israels biggest opponents to Palestinian statehood, spent years supporting and propping up Hamas to weaken the PLA and keep the Palestinians politically divided.
This is a simplification, but this is why.
1. Palestinians as a people are not killing civilians. Hamas, their government, did kill civilians.
2. Israel has been killing Palestinian civilians nearly every day for over 75 years.
3. Israel helped put Hamas in power in Palestine for this exact reason. There are dozens of quotes from Israeli officials about how supporting Hamas is the best way to destabilize Palestine. That is why they helped get Hamas elected in 2006 (an election has not been held since) instead of the more peaceful party of Fatah.
You're making the destinction for Palestinians and their government/country, but you're not doing the same for Israel.
Why can you not just say, that you're upset with the situation and want no civilians to die and be in this shitty situation
What percentage, would you guess, of people who have died in this conflict are Israeli? How about Palestinian?
There is an obvious disparity in civilian deaths in this conflict.
The culprit to this issue, like always, are the British. Had the British not meddle in colonization in the Middle East, the Middle East will have been much peaceful.
Israel was created to give the Jewish people a safe monoculture, monotheist homeland that was historically theirs.
Palestinians also has also been there for 100's of years. 1,000+ if memory serves me. So their own claim isn't inconsequential.
They both have a HEAVY claim. But it's like trying to choose if French territory belongs to Germany, or German territory belongs to France. Both have historic ties. Both would be the loser if the other got their way.
No matter what, there is going to be a JUSTIFIABLY unhappy party, in terms of right to land, government power, etc.
But in the case of Israel and Palestine? Palestine has insurgent forces running an offensive against Israel. Not a defensive campaign, despite claiming a Palestinian allegiance and pro-Palestinian goals. Israel has government military killing civilians with bullets, starvation, deprivation, exposure.
One side has randos kicking a hornet's nest that deserves to be kicked. The other side already has the winning hand, but is trying to grind the other's civilians into bones, and their bones into dust.
The right outcome is to depose the Israeli leadership that allows their own government to do this. Because, no matter the outcome otherwise, these guys are pure evil. They threw away any denial of that long ago. But that doesn't mean all of Israel is evil, just like not all Palestinians are evil because of Hamas.
1/1
A brief history lesson of the region.
In light of all of this "pro-Israel/anti-Palestine" rhetoric I've been reading these last few days, I think it's time for good old Uncle Alan to dust off his soap box with the hope he can help provide some greater context to the tragedies that are being committed by both Israel and Palestine.
Now, before we go any further, I want to establish a few basic truths and rules for the discussion.
1. I am not pro or anti-Israel
2. I am not pro or anti-Palestine.
3 I AM pro-PEOPLE, so I DO stand for the PEOPLE of Israel and I DO stand for the PEOPLE of Palestine. (4 out of 5 Israelis disagree with the way their OWN government is handling the situation)
4. I'm not here to engage in my opinion, beyond a certain point. (case in point: I think Netanyahu is a conservative extremist with a nationalist bent AND that Hamas is an organization using radical means to fight Israel)
5. My kids identify as Muslim (mom's side, not mine) and some of the most important people in my life are Jewish.
Most importantly:
6. If you feel you have a fully formed opinion on this topic and there is no room in your brain for new historical context, new information (in general), and/or have the idea that one side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong: this discussion isn't for you.
It's a discussion, not an argument.
Full stop.
So, now that we've established some basic framework, let's start with what most would effectively consider to be "Modern History", since so many people have grown up in a United States that has broadcast a "Israel good, Palestine bad" message for a literal hundred years and didn't care to know the actual history of it all.
From a historical standpoint, the following three things are objectively true:
A. Prior to 1948, Israel did not exist.
B. Prior to 1948, Palestine had been in existance in one form or another as far back as the 5th Century BC (having been conquered multiple times)
C. Hamas was not a thing prior to 1948.
Let me say that again:
There was no such thing as Israel prior to "May 14, 1948".
The term "Palestine" first appeared in the 5th century BCE (Before Christ, if you're sectarian about it) when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" between Phoenicia and Egypt
There was no "Hamas".
So, the land you know as Palestine today has been populated by the people of Palestine, aka "Palestinians", for literal thousands of years.
Sidebar: Rome controlled and burned Jerusalem in early 60's as punishment for resistance, so the whole "Jews were there first and were pushed out by Arabs" is historically inaccurate to a significant degree.
... And that's -0060's, not the 1960's, by the way.
Anyway, more modern awareness of Palestine is based on what's largely regarded as "Ottoman Palestine" which existed for approximately 400 years prior to the1940s United Nations forced PARTITIONING. (where have you heard that word in conjunction with Great Britain before, folks?)
In case you're wondering: yes the Ottoman Empire existed as recently as the early 1900's and basically ended with WWI. (the way they talked about it in 5th grade history, you'd think they were a thing that happened thousands of years ago)
1/1
Saying there was no Israel before 1948 is really over simplifying the history and falls into intellectual dishonesty in the name of semantics. In fact your entire post is simplified in an incredibly dangerous way. The very word Palestine was rooted in anti semitism.
You are unequivocally ignoring the roots of Israel and how it was used prior to 1948.
I am not sure why it’s so difficult for people to understand Israelites (Jews) have been scientifically proven to be native to Canaan. I’ll give you three guesses on what part of the modern world is Canaan.
You’ve totally erased Mizrahi Jews from your post. You seem to be focusing on modern Ashkenazi Jews, expand your knowledge and learn from actual experts.
I believe in the Jewish people I do not believe in the Israeli government. I support the Palestinian people. But facts are facts.
I'm really suspicious if you're asking this question in good faith. No one in the world, outside of Israel, is arguing that killing civilians is a good thing. But how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past 7 months? Because the death toll of Palestinian civilians just crossed 36,000. That's 12 times the number of deaths from 9/11, just for frame of reference.
Because Israel is an apartheid state, as is confirmed by numerous human Rights organizations including[Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), [B'Tselem](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid), and even the [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights#:~:text=GENEVA%20(25%20March%202022)%20%E2%80%93,in%20the%20occupied%20Palestinian%20territory.)
People like picking sides and forcing people to pick sides, which actually does more harm than good.
Kudos for changing your perspective after learning a little more…which should be more commonplace but isn’t I guess.
Being against both Hamas and Netanyahu’s government is a valid take, my take too. It’s not based on selective morality. I would also say that a two state solution requires a willingness to acknowledge the circumstances of both Israel and Palestine.
I can see the number of upvotes going down as I’m typing, wonder why.
I don't think our brains are wired to have empathy for everything wrong happening in the world -- I believe this is a big reason we've all become so anxious. It was never required to absorb this much wrongdoing before the internet and real-time, instant news. Your own mental health is way more important than who to support on the other side of the planet.
I also don't think you are not an empathetic person if you ignore chaos elsewhere. YOU don't have to do that, you have to make sure your and the people you love's lives are in order, and that is it.
I agree, I don’t think trying to be an “activist” is helpful at all for my mental health, I already have really bad anxiety, and learned that trying to be an activist all the time was harmful for my mental health when I was a teenager. I think it’s important to know what’s going on in the world and we shouldn’t be ignorant, but I think it’s okay to have my own life and not be so absorbed in everything that’s happening in the world. I have some friends who disagree and unfortunately I think I need distance from them
There are a lot of layers going on that everyone misses.
1.) The attack on Nov 7th 2023 was conducted by Hamas, who didn't inform allies and other factions in Palestinian areas.
2.) Hamas attack was split between indiscriminate killing and abducting civilians.
3.) Attacks were also made against Israeli military posts, with some temporary successes.
Israel then began counter insurgency operations in the border region and pushed Hamas out of the Israeli territory - Israel decided to push into the Gaza to remove further possible threats and possibly rescue those kidnapped.
This is when things started to go off the rails ...
Israel began an operation of leveling all infrastructure and residencies in Northern Gaza, this pushed Palestinian civilians further south, but were under threat of attack by Israeli forces.
Israel further extended it's operations southward and have basically bottled the Palestinians into the very edge of the border with Egypt - now Israel has begun strikes in the refugee camps.
Israel has refused to pause operations to allow for aid to get to refugees and have had several aid agency missions attacked by Israeli aircraft.
This is collective punishment, as Hamas was the ones behind the attack on Nov 7, 2023 and has gone far beyond any reasonable retaliation.
The Israeli Settler movement has used this situation to attack Palestinians in the West Bank and have been disrupting aid convoys.
Hamas doesn't represent all of Palestinians and doesn't justify blanket destruction of the civilian areas - this isn't to say Palestinians haven't done attacks on Israel, but the totality of the operations by Israel far outweigh the atrocity and has placed remaining hostages at risk from Israeli action, rather than the hostage takers. ( An Israeli patrol has been court martialed for the killing of three hostages, when the patrol happened on the escaped hostages.)
This has also had a profound regional effect, as it's drawing in other middle eastern states into the conflict and has put global shipping at risk - which has completely undone all the work Israel had been doing in the last decade.
Just came here to say that I'm deeply impressed at the sanity expressed here (in the post and especially in the comments, which I expected would fly off the rails instantly...)
I'm not going to add my opinion beyond saying that targeting civilians is wrong and awful, and I detest any group that does it - especially as policy.
Thank you for restoring some of my faith here...
Yeah I was afraid everyone would come attacking me. I’m just genuinely confused. I plan to do more research on this and have done a little bit, but I was still confused by it
As per the IDF’s numbers, the number of Palestinian civilians killed in this conflict are at *least* 24,000, 2/3 of which are children (36,000 killed, 50% which are children. All men are being considered enemy combatants, so half of that are adult women.) The number of Israeli civilian deaths, including hostages, is around 1000.
To add to that, residents of Gaza live in an area who’s border was already fenced in and they were not permitted to travel through, except for a handful of locations, and the border with Egypt, which doesn’t allow crossing most of the time. The IDF has also surrounded not just the majority of Gaza, but the *entirety* of all official refugee camps, where the majority of Gaza residents now live.
I say this while being 100% opposed to Hamas, but Israel is the party with all the power in this situation.
In my view, having read history to some extent, they are all playing by very much pre-modern rules. They would happily go back to the good old days of fortified towns and city states, raiding each other and looting and pillaging and enslaving and slaughtering endlessly.
They all need to mature massively.
Thanks for your submission /u/qhyirrstynne, but it has been removed for the following reason: **Rule 2: Please try to use the search function before posting anything.** Thanks for posting, but this question happens to be one that has been asked and answered here often before - sometimes in the same day! That can get frustrating for our dedicated users who like to answer questions. Or maybe you're just asking the same question too often - why not take a break for a while? Sometimes questions that come up too often get put in our [Most Frequently Asked Questions list](https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/wiki/index/faq)!). Other times, it may just be that we're getting a flood of questions about a topic (especially when something is in the news). Or maybe you keep asking the same question again and again - something that annoys our users here. Please don't do that! Next time, please try searching for your question first before asking. Thanks! --- *This action was performed by a bot at the explicit direction of a human. This was not an automated action, but a conscious decision by a sapient life form charged with moderating this sub.* *If you feel this was in error, or need more clarification, please don't hesitate to [message the moderators](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FNoStupidQuestions). Thanks.*
[удалено]
Nuance? On the internet?
At this time of the year?
At this time of the day?
In this part of the internet? And localized entirely within Reddit?
...May I see it?
No
Well, you may be an odd one but you steam a good ham.
HELP! COMMENT FLAME WAR!
SEYMOUR, THE THREAD IS ON FIRE!
It's just neaunce on the internet mother!
🧑🚒💦
In this economy?
In this economy?
I wish it were only on the internet EDIT: The no nuance I mean
Does not exist. Never, no how, no way, under no circumstances. 100% of the time
Your comment displeases me. Consider me your enemy for life
I like cats - person 1 WHY YOU HATE DOGS!?! - person 2
Accurate
Like for instance saying "Impeach Netanyahu"? Because I can agree with that statement.
Send Bibi to the Hague is anither good one along with send Hamas leadership to the Hague.
They can’t even get the Red Cross to visit/provide care for the hostages🤦♂️
People don't want to hear it, but Hamas as well as Netenyahu and his cronies should be all brought up on charges. And then we can start working on a two state solution to help ease violence and help the people on both sides stuck in the middle.
Arrest all leadership in the Middle East, put them on trial, go back to what Lawrence said and make the region make sense.
Bibi, iran, all the leaders of the murder fraternities…. They are all murderous fucks
What did Lawrence say?
Lawrence, as in Lawrence of Arabia, spent a lot of time in the Middle East before it was divided the way it is now. He said to divide it based on tribal identities across the board. He basically said ‘the Shiites and the Sunni’s won’t cooperate, don’t make a country that has both of them. Give the afghani people separate borders from the Kurds’ and shit like that. He basically actually understood who the people are, what they believed, what differences they had, and had an actual solid idea of how to build a functional foundation for the region. Of course, they didn’t do that at all.
I remember I liked the movie. I gotta check up on that guy. Seems like he knew what he was talking about.
I picked up a book called Lawrence in Arabia at the thrift store. I think this is my cue to check it out
But Lawrence didn't have the authority to make the offers he did, which is why the British government didn't back him up: they'd made a different deal.
The problem with that is Hamas is a belief. Bibi and the IDF will not be able to cleanse that belief out of existence. They sure can and will reduce the age of those who believe there should be no Jewish State in the world to the point that it will be decades before they can rise up again. But Hamas or whatever name they call themselves will rise up again. Bibi will not stop reducing Gaza to rubble until he has sufficiently reduced Hamas to the point that they no longer are capable of wiping Israel from existence. Which has been their stated goal since it was known as the PLO under Yasser Arafat. But he knows that they will be back. Just a matter of when.
[удалено]
It certainly seems like it is nobody in power's interest to halt the war. Netanyahu wants to avoid prosecution for corruption, Hamas makes their (substantial) living from conflict and rage, and Ben Gvir and Smotrich actually love the war. Remember when Smotrich and Netanyahu called Hamas an "asset"? This is what they meant.
Lots of people have an interest in the suffering of innocent people. More than a little bit sick, but that’s kind of how the sausage gets made. It makes me really miss that Yitzhak Rabin fellow. He seemed interested in actually making peace before he was assassinated by a far right Israeli seeking to make sure peace never happened. “The most successful political assassination in history.”
[удалено]
And that is why he was assassinated
Ben Gvir is a terrorist who shouldn't have been allowed to run for election.
How is he still in charge of Israel?
How is Trump a contender in 2024?
"And change horses mid-stream? There's a war going on!" Probably something like that.
Yep. I think killing civilians is bad. I don’t know anything about the Israel Palestine conflict and I’m fine with never knowing, it’s not my battle, I can’t do anything, and everything I’ve seen about it just devolves into getting into fights on the Internet. Its perfectly acceptable to not want to pick a side on anything despite how some people seem. My life has been a lot easier since I stopped getting angry over things on the Internet I don’t know much about and have no control over
What do you do about the 3 out 4 Palestinians that support those doing violence. Polls after the Oct 7 attack showed 3/4 supported the attack. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/ Remember, Hamas was voted in even though they had an explicit goal to eliminate Israel. Note a majority of Palestinians also supported 9/11. I don’t like the civilian deaths. I just don’t know how realistic it is to eliminate Hamas without those unfortunate deaths. Honestly not sure Hamas can be eliminated at all.
See the problem with trying to eliminate hamas or any terrorist organisation is that it creates more and more. Like trying to eliminate a bad smell by throwing eggs at it.
So what solution do you propose?
[удалено]
Hamas was voted in in 2002 or something. There haven't been any democratic elections since and the average age in Palestine is in the late teens/early twenties. Most of the people living in fact did not vote for Hamas. We can decry political violence all we want but until we've known generational violence passed down from our grandparents to us, with no concrete change or improvements we don't really know what we would be capable of.
We've all heard this. I think the point is that, even if it was 20 years ago ( I could be wrong but I think it was 05-06 ), there is *some* culpability on the Palestinian side. This conflict is fucked however you look at it and it baffles me that people so assuredly think that they *know* the solution or the cause even.
Polling clearly indicates a strong majority in the Gaza Strip AND West Bank support Hamas, regardless of whether they have had elections since Hamas came to power
What are the other options? A toothless PLO propped up by the Israeli government? Extreme conditions are going to breed extreme beliefs. If all you know is war and subjugation then of course you're going to want the most hardline folks you can find to change the status quo. That's not an endorsement, that's just how resistance to occupations work.
Doesn't matter if they support them. There seems to be little alternative, and nothing unifies a people like an oppressor. Just because the majority of Palestinians may be sympathetic to Hamas, doesn't mean they have yet, or one day will, join them and kill innocent Israelis. This is the beginning of a very dangerous slippery slope, condemning others for difference of beliefs only. An orangutan* could soon become the leader of the "free" world again, and I'm sure he has a growing list somewhere of people that wronged him, or thought differently from him. Do not make this mistake. The onus on the neautral is to promote secularism, not condone mass murder/genocide. Edit: spelling*
You can't take polls that seriously where people lack freedom of speech. No one can say with any certainty what the majority of Palestinians want, let alone the majority of Palestinians in Gaza. And if Hamas could be eliminated, Iran and Qatar and the other groups supporting them would just look for another group to support to continue the violence.
I'm in NO way supporting their viewpoint, but it's also not entirely hard to believe when you are oppressed, treated as less than, your homes stolen ect, that you grow a deep hate for your oppressors. Hamas didn't just appear out of nothing, Israel is partially responsible for it
Maybe enfranchise them and change their material circumstances so they no longer see violence as the only option?
[удалено]
This is not true. A poll showed the majority of Palestinians supported the actions of Hamas on Oct 7 and the role Hamas has played throughout the war. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,has%20played%20during%20the%20war.
>the people of Palestine don't want smoke but Hamas does Well...the Palestinians of 2006 voted for Hamas, which was running on promises to end corruption and wage armed resistance against Israel. So in effect, those Palestinians voted for war. Most of today's Palestinians are not old enough to have voted in 2006.
You can simultaneously support the Palestinian people, and the Israeli people, and oppose the Israeli government and Hamas.
Thank the universe! A reasonable take. We can't pretend like all jews are the Israeli govt. Or that all Palestinians are Hamas. That people can't see the difference is nuts.
Seriously! This is an OLD fight between two governments, but no one said anything when people were invading Israel, I do believe it’s extreme but we can’t just pretend like this isn’t an old fight over land that’s been established for centuries now.
What's more is that the Kurdish still don't have their own terrirory yet like the Islamic nations do, and the only jewish nation on the planet is on the verge of not existing anymore and is already contested.
Apologies if I get long winded, im bad at being succinct but its in the effort to educate, not argue; This specific conflict is not that old actually. Israel is a very young nation state, founded less than a century ago and intended to house displaced Jews in Europe, thus resulting in displaced Palestinians who were already living in what is now within the borders of Israel. There are many first hand accounts of still living Palestinians who were forced out of their homes which are now occupied by Israeli citizens. This current conflict however that “started” with October 7 however is a battle of PR on Israel’s side, as the soldiers and military are targeting reporters and foreign aid to keep word from getting out of what they’re actually doing — targeting civilians and cultural centers, namely universities, hospitals, ancient olive tree farms, and most recently Rafa, which Israel told the Palestinians would be a safe zone. Very few if any people saying free Palestine supports Hamas, but the conflict most people outside the Middle East are advocating about started much more recently.
A famous Israeli intellectual and advocate for two-state solution / lasting peace used to describe Israel / Palestine as a struggle of "right against right," meaning that both sides have a true narrative. It's that **and** it's "wrong against wrong", that both Israel and Palestine have done horrors to each other, and that right now the leadership of both peoples are unfit for purpose.
Jews were pushed out of places around the rest of the world and subjected to pogroms after WWII, in addition to the Holocaust. Palestinians were not empowered when the Arab countries chose to attack the state of Israel. Both groups of people have genuinely suffered - and Israel, as the victor of those conflicts, has the responsibility to the people who were used by their enemies.
Not according to r/worldnews /s
Considering 90+% of their content comes from two people, I suspect they're mostly bots and outrage.
Common sense, on the internet??
See “two state solution”.
This is exactly my stance. Both groups are doing horrible shit and the innocent people are suffering for it, both Israeli and Palestinian.
The Palestinians elected Hamas and supported them
You don’t have to support anyone. You can just acknowledge that the situation is upsetting and that you don’t yet have a nuanced understanding of what’s going on. Personally I think what Israel is doing is wrong. I have no problem with them going after Hamas but it looks like they are going out of their way to make Gaza unlivable. There are no longer homes, schools, hospitals etc. not to mention food and clean drinking water. Leadership is completely opposed to a two state solution or a one state solution where Gazans have equal rights. So what are they doing exactly? It sure looks like they are trying to force Palestinians out of Gaza by making it unsafe and unlivable, which is called ethnic cleansing.
Thanks for this! I didn’t know how to put my perspective into words. Because I really have no idea what is going on, what this war has stemmed from so I can’t support either side, but do know it’s all terrible.
It's hard when dealing with nationalism to.get an unbiased source of this conflict. I read James gelvins account and it seemed ok.
Congratulations for actually admitting that you don't know what's going on, unlike all the other yapping people.
One major problem with the whole conflict and the reason it is as bloody as it is, is that Hamas embeds themselves and their assets with civilians. For example, using school roofs as platforms for launching rockets. It makes it impossible to go after Hamas without civilian casualties and causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure. Hamas uses civilians as human shields, which is a massive war crime. International law also recognizes that if civilians are being used as human shields, it’s not a war crime if they are killed in strikes against the enemy. Since if human shields worked, everyone would just do it. It’s a sad state, but most of the civilian deaths are because Hamas hides behind women and children like cowards. Even making public statements saying that civilian deaths are good for them because it gets them more support, so they continue to set up their war efforts to maximize civilian casualties and then play the propaganda game.
God if only Netanyahu and Israel hadn’t funneled money into Hamas to prevent a secular Palestinian government from forming. Maybe we could’ve avoided this senseless violence. Israel has directly fostered the conditions that led to Hamas being the reprehensible and dangerous group it is to Palestinians and Israelis alike. To then turn around and rationalize the genocide as the unfortunate consequence of Hamas is irresponsible at best. There is way more nuance and history here than any of us can express in comment threads.
Thank you, I’m tired of people acting like Hamas and this fallout happened in a vacuum. As if Israel weren’t playing dirty this whole time.
And the Hamas group keeps growing because people are prisoners of Israel for their whole life, being target dolls for Israelis to shoot and bomb for fun, its no wonder so many Palestinians join Hamas hoping they will get out of that prison. There is no person who would not do the same if they lived their whole life in place like that.
And it was the same playbook before. When the PLO, a secular but "dangerously communist" group stopped being a threat they could leverage in the west, due to the fall of the Soviet Union and a willingness for the PLO to agree to moderated peace agreements, they started funding religious extremist groups as those became the new Boogeyman of the West.
This isn’t really accurate. Netanyahu as part of agreed upon deals allowed money from Qatar to flow to Hamas. He didn’t funnel money or use govt funds to prop them up. https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html
[удалено]
You're repeating Israeli propaganda. Amnesty international has investigated and not found any truth to the human shields myth. Besides, why would Hamas use human shields if Israel has proven time and time again they have absolutely zero problem bombing children and hospitals? So-called human shields have never once stopped them.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf Read through that. It's NATO's assessment that Hamas has been using human shields in every war. And don't take NATO's word for it, just read what the Hamas says: Hamas (via spokespeople) 2006: "The citizens will continue defending their pride and houses and will continue to serve as human shields until the enemy will withdraw."10 2014: "The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli warplanes in order to protect their homes, I believe this strategy is proving itself. And we, Hamas, call on our people to adopt this practice."11 2014: "Hamas despise those defeatist Palestinians that criticize the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people...we lead our people to death...I mean, to war."12 Ismail Haniyeh, former Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority (2006- 2014), Head of Hamas Political Bureau in Gaza (since 2017) 2006: Citizens were encouraged to gather at Muhammad Baroud's house (a prominent PRC combatant) in Jabaliya refugee camp, after the IDF issued a warning. Following the event, Haniyeh stated: "I believe that what has happened tonight will be a role model... an example to our Palestinian people and a clear message, that the [Zionist] aggression will not break our will."13 2008: "Israel threatens to bombard houses [in which freedom fighters live], but hundreds and thousands of Palestinians climb to those houses rooftops in the middle of the night to defend those houses."14 Fathi Hamad, Hamas MP 2008: "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry [...]. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly and the mujahideen."15 That you refuse to believe that Hamas readily uses civilian deaths as part of their strategy to sway public opinion and win, really shows how much propaganda has worked, to make you believe that all these civilian deaths are completely intentional, rather than tragic casualties of a war where civilians on both sides pay the biggest price, and especially much more so for the people of Gaza. The IDF makes efforts to tell people to evacuate and leave, and whether they choose not to or are forced to, explains the high casualty numbers, even tho in actuality they are low considering the extreme urban warfare situation. Also, something to consider, is that if there was no Iron Dome, what would the casualty numbers in Israel be? Would that make this a more "balanced" war? That one side invested and spent money to protect its civilians, while the other built tunnels for themselves and says that it's UN's responsibility to take care of the civilian population, should be enough to help you understand what each side stands for.
Amnesty international also says Ukraine is responsible for dead Ukrainians because they're fighting to defend their civilians. >Besides, why would Hamas use human shields if Israel has proven time and time again they have absolutely zero problem bombing children and hospitals? Because they're using it for propaganda.
> Amnesty international has investigated and not found any truth to the human shields myth. Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri in 2014 "Our citizens took a bold step by standing on the roof of the house to prevent the occupation forces from attacking" "the fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli warplanes in order to protect their homes, **I believe this strategy is proving itself. And we, Hamas, call on our people to adopt this practice**"
You're repeating Palestinian propaganda.
It’s been widely reported for years that Hamas does indeed set up operations in civilian buildings and puts operatives among civilians. They are essentially running as an urban guerrilla force in Gaza. They do so because it erodes support for Israel abroad and because their fighters, who are usually young justifiably angry men, can blend in easily with the public. Now, this doesn’t justify Israel’s approach to fighting Hamas. Israel is far less discriminating than they should be when bombing targets and capturing Palestinians. Decades of frankly racist policy towards Palestinians has permeated their government and military actions. They play right into how Hamas wants them to fight. And they should be judged harshly for their lack of regard for innocent life. When the war is over, Hamas leadership and Israeli leadership should be arrested and tried in international courts.
Gaza is very densely populated. Pretty analogous to the island of Manhattan. There's no place one could set up military operations that wouldn't be elbow to elbow with civilians
> There's no place one could set up military operations that wouldn't be elbow to elbow with civilians Except you know, the near 50% that is agricultural land.
“Why would Hamas use human shields” Read through this thread alone. How many people are criticizing Israel for bombing civilians? How many college kids are calling Biden “genocide Joe” for supporting Israel and demanding the US to width draw support? How many times have the “eyes on Rafah” AI image been re-posted? How many people are now saying Hamas was justified because they are the victim? If you shot a terrorist who strapped an infant baby to his chest as a bullet vest, you are now a baby-killer. You can’t claim moral high ground or self-defense because EVERYONE will know you as a baby-killer. It doesn’t matter if you prevented a terrorist attack that would kill thousands, you are still a baby-killer. You shot an infant baby. That’s enough for a lot of people to see you on the same level as Hitler. Using human shields has been a tactic in the terrorist playbook for a while. It works. Extremely well.
Because Hamas doesn’t give a fuck if Palestinians die. Hamas is an insurgency, insurgent strategy is dependent on provoking a response from whichever group or country they are fighting against, and then using that response to sway more people to their cause
We have however seen photographic evidence of human shields being used in gaza, by the godamn IOF
I advise you to read up on the history of the Palestine-Israel conflict over the past 70 years and come to your own conclusion on whether both sides are in the wrong
I blame the British
Us Irish have a rhetorical question on whether the brits are at it again...... https://arethebritsatitagain.org/
That might be the single best and most informative website on the internet, thank you
I love that the email is active.
More broadly applicable words were never spoken
The British and French allying with some groups in the Middle East and making them promises in WW1 then double cross them (Russia to a lesser extent too) was a large factor. They then carved up the Middle East and formed new countries and border, and forced Israel on them down the line. When everyone started fighting each other and the British they just left. Saying that most of these things also go a long way back in history, tribes and cultures and religions that have never got on, I don’t have an answer for it, Oct 7th was a horrid crescendo for the previous decade, and I can’t excuse some of the shit Israel has done since. I’m not taking sides, I have no idea what the answer is, other than a big fuck off wall with aid coming from different countries….but the Palestinians need access to a water supply and farming and to try and get them up to a point where they are self sufficient, and both sides need leader that represent the majorities that want peace. If either side doesn’t actually have that majority, this will never end…. If the citizens want violence then they’ll continue to get it
If you see something fucked up in the world, blame the British - You'll be right like every second time lmao.
I blame the Austrians
And the ottomans since the colonized the area first and allowed Jewish settlers to move into Palestine
The truth is it doesn't matter who's "in the wrong" because this isn't middle school playground. Not to mention that many of the people who did a lot of wrongs are long dead and laying their crimes on their children isn't fair. What's actually important is finding a solution that will bring lasting peace. But most people would rather endlessly complain and assign blame rather than actually come up with something of value. I guarantee you 90% of protestors on both sides, if you ask them how they would actually solve the conflict, have no answer or a really terrible one. Most vocal people are just "against" the other side, they aren't really for anything.
You are placing a heavier burden on a sophomore at NYU than the people actually negotiating.
A university student should know better than to repeat political slogans without even understanding them. Fanatic chanting from ideologically people won't achieve anything.
Takes a bit more than 70 years. You've got to back to the end of the Ottoman Empire, then factor in the finagling of the European empires (France, England, and others), plus the US. It gets complicated, the many Jews were immigrating to the area at that time. It's complicated, and they're probably not going to stop. It might even go way back to the beginnings of the Abrahamics.
Reminds of the youtube channel "Fall of Civilizations". Every episode wether its about the Roman Empire or the Inca or whatever usually starts with something like "700 million years ago, the medeterenian sea was formed when the land bridge got flooded over" Soooo...they go waaaay back.
Holy shit that channel is amazing! Thanks for ruining my night
"Both sides suck, but one side sucks a BIT more than the other" is a reasonable take, even if the disagreement lies as to which side sucks more.
Why would you start 70 years ago when its been happening for like 2500 years
Because mass immigration into the region is 70 years old, not 2500 years.
[удалено]
How far back do you want to go? Are we gonna say the Ottomans weren't legitimate? That's insane.
I blame tetrapods for leaving the ocean.
I blame The Big Bang, it started all this. No wonder governments have NASA and all other big money hungry groups trying to find how it all happened. Oh sh\*t I probably just started new conspiracy theory by accident.
Sumerians were the first to build cities in modern day Iraq, they have final say over things!
as someone of sumerian descent (1/10000th or "margin of error" whatever that means) i support this.
Waiting for your response u/wiconv
The key to the argument is whether the UN Partition itself was legitimate or not. The way I see it, the entire decolonization era was rife with bad decisions, many of which resulted in hideous conflict and actual (as opposed to imagined) genocide. I agree that the Israel/Palestine partition had problems, but if you're going to deny it legitimacy, what about all the others? Part of the logic of the UN system is to deny revanchism and irredentism: These are the borders, live with it. Of course, old empires hate that: Russia, China, Arab, even British... They all remember their glory days and gnash their teeth. So, while many on the pro-Palestine side wave UN documents around like holy writ, they cherry-pick. To them, the Partition itself created the problem, while to the pro-Israel side, the Arab attack in 1948 created the problem. Look at all the comments about how "700,000 Arabs were displaced" without any comment about why, or what happened. A lot of passive voice. If the Pan-Arab Nation had not attacked Israel that day, a lot more Arabs would live in Israel today as full citizens.
When should we stop? 2000 years ago when Jews were in Israel? Well then why stop there? Let’s go all the way back to the Canaanite’s, it’s their land after all. That’s how dumb that thinking is. Let’s focus on things that are actually relevant and affect the world currently.
So whats the statute of limitations that Israel can wait and we stop caring?
Before then there wasn’t an Israel for there to be a conflict. We can go further back and talk about Zionist settlers in the late 1800s but that seems less relevant to today.
Where would you suggest stopping?
Not being snarky: you aren't reading or talking to people outside of your bubble. It's okay and very acceptable to say "Palestine can be free and unoppressed *and* everyone should stop killing civilians."
The statement "free Palestine" isn't picking a side. Palestine should be free from occupation, and Israelis should be free from bombardment. That's the same side; peace.
True, although depending on who you ask “free Palestine” or “end the occupation” could have very different meanings. I think that’s partially why it’s so successful of a phrase, it can imply a lot of very different goals without having to specify. I’m sure to plenty it means freeing Gaza and the West Bank from Israeli military and civilian occupation, the scenario that most can easily agree with. And then theres freeing Palestine “from the river to the sea”, where freeing usually means a scenario where Israel doesn’t exist anymore since they view Israel itself as occupied Palestine. And that’s never happening without some insane turn of events leading to Israel’s collapse, so I tend to be cautious about my “free Palestine’s” without a conversation that gives some context.
Gaza wasnt under military or civilian occupation prior to October 7th. There was a complete removal of settlements and a military disengagement from Gaza in 2005. Now the ethics regarding the blockade is a different story, which Egypt also plays a role in upholding.
I have the feeling this is the core of a lot of misinformation. They try to convince readers that the people in Palestine are the same as the terror organisation Hamas. Which is of course not true. Just how not all Americans are part of any specific political group or even terror organisation. It is so obviously false I am not sure how so many fall for it.
Have you seen the videos of palestinians bringing back corpses or kidnapped pale and parading them through the streets to other cheering civilians? Not Hamas bringing them back, civilians. Or the polls in which 70% of civilians support Hamas and 80% who saw Oct 7 footage say there were no massacres? Stop whitewashing reality. The ignoring of complaining about obvious falsehoods while spreading them is astounding.
For many Palestinians and their supporters, Free Palestine and "from the river to the sea" means the entire area of pre 1948 Palestine free of Jews and Israel.
And people get real quiet when you ask what would need to happen for that to take place.
It really depends on who is saying it. A large part of the conflict is that the Palestinians believe Palestine and pretty much all of Israel is their rightful land, while the Israeli take is the opposite. Setting aside the very complex history for a bit, satisfying either definition of freedom automatically includes oppression of the other's people
We've seen that sort of "peace" in Iran and pre-2011 Syria (ergo post-2011 Syria). At least for "free Palestine" you can argue that you just want the corrupt unelected pseudo-government to have the power (even though that would require a *lot* of propping up). "Free Gaza" is pretty much "Let Iran and its proxies have free reign over as much territory as they can take, keep, and terrorize." If these protestors were reasonable and knowledgeable, their signs would instead say, "No to Hamas, no to Iran, no to Natanyahu." Because right now it seems like they only agree with the last point.
If someone broke into your house, and you gave them a whack on the head with a baseball bat, you’d probably be really exasperated if the police showed up, said “both sides are wrong”, and went away without doing anything. (Yes, I’m aware the police have done stuff like that. You would still be mad.)
You literally just explained Canada
Sorry.
Sorry
I can't even tell which side you're referring to lol
What makes this situation more nuanced is that the guy who broke into your house is angry because his grandparents used to live in it. 40 years ago his grandparents were kicked out of your house for no legally defensible reason and his family has been homeless ever since. The police refuses to investigate the situation and the government tells him to live in a tent in the desert.
Good example except for the "homeless" bit. By this analogy, most ethnic groups are "homeless" and do not have a nation-state specifically for them and that caters to them, which is why the guy is in the wrong.
You left off the part where you just blindly kill everyone in the neighborhood regardless of their involvement.
Did I rape, kidnap, and murder the police before that happened though?
The terrorist group of Hamas is in the wrong, that's definitely true. However, Israel's transgressions are going too far to 'both sides' this one. First of all: Israel is an occupier in the first place. For years, where there's palestinian ground with palestinian people in palestinian houses, Israel will just send a 'peace force' or whatever they want to call it, kick palestinian people out of their house and claim it for Israelites. The Israel border has moved far past what was internationally agreed upon for 'Israel territories as a sanctuary for Jews after WW2'; for the full story, check r/AskHistorians. Secondly: Israel started out with "we are just retaliating against Hamas"..."so civilians should take shelter in area A"..."Which we will subsequently bomb": They are designating safe areas for civilians inside Gaza and then bomb those civilians. Since this conflict started it's current escalation, Israel politicians have made it clear - actually said the quiet part out loud - that their goal is for all Palestinians to flee or perish, and it quite clearly seems the latter has their preference. It has been acknowledged internationally that the state of Israel is committing crimes against humanity and against the Geneva conventions.
This is the right answer, instead of both-sidesing the issue it actually explains why people say Free Palestine.
Very well put! All the safe areas and even the refugee camps have been bombed/burned
This is a genuine question as I am so ignorant on most of this conflict, but Israel designated safe spaces with the intention of killing those innocent people? Hamas didn't embed themselves into those safe spaces or use those spaces as military encampments? Again, genuine question, since I've heard both things from both sides so many times. I guess I'm trying to figure out if Hamas truly does use human shields inside of hospitals and homes like people say they do, and, if not, I want to know if Israel has been bombing those safe spaces for no reason other than to massacre.
I have a question about the human shields excuse. If a group of bank robbers rob a bank full of people or terrorists take a building hostage, would it be okay for the police to storm the place and kill both the perpetrators and the hostages indiscriminately? If the answer is no, then I don’t get why it would be okay for the IDF to ask for civilians to flee to a safe zone, then kill them indiscriminately while using the excuse that terrorists are hiding among them. It’s insanity.
Of course it’s not ok, just like it’s not ok to starve an entire population of 2 million human beings.
Right. I t’s crazy to me that people say “they’re using them as human shields” like that makes it a valid excuse to indiscriminately bomb innocent women, children, sick and elderly.
you are absolutely right and to slightly pivot, this is what people mean when they say that some people (Israel, US, the west, etc) believe some lives matter less than others. That excuse would NEVER be acceptable for Ukrainians if it was being done by Russia. But for racist reasons it is absolutely acceptable if its Palestinian.
Have you heard about the incidents like with the World Central Kitchen (easily found on google so I won't link), a charity aid group feeding people, who did everything they were told to and still got killed by Israelis? Apparently the deal was that whenever aid convoys are in motion, they call in and confirm that they are using X vehicles in Y number on Z route, so any Israeli forces that see them do not fire. The Israelis on the other hand are meant to call up the chain of command to a certain level to confirm fire/don't fire on any convoys they see. They did not, and killed innocent charity workers. At a certain point, Israeli claims that "oh there was Hamas in the hospital" and "oh there was Hamas in the refugee camp" falls flat when their response to killing aid workers who followed every direction is "oh they thought the car had Hamas in it, sorry" The Israeli right wing sorts in the government also insist that "there was no Palestine before" (hard to find one quote with that phrase it is allllll over the internet because of how many people think that) and claim that everyone who says they are Palestinian are just antisemitic and moved in after the founding of the modern state to start shit. So I don't trust their words.
It’s called psychological warfare. It’s to send a clear message to Palestinians that there is no safe place, and if they want to live, their only option is to gtfo if they ever get the chance. Source: my grandparents gtfo decades ago when Israel was terrorizing them. My dad still has the keys to his childhood home in the West Bank, a home he was never allowed to return to and is now in an illegal Israeli settlement protected by the Israeli military and connected to Israel by roads that only Israelis are allowed on. Edit: All of which are Zionist dreams.
In fact, they have. Please take a while on YT or other and view world news outlets and commentators not directly aligned with Israel (am not saying go for those that lean in the opposite direction, look into those that use neutral sources - to include internal Israeli organizations, many have been sharing statistics that are unbiased and factual). They \*have\* urged (and physically herded) Palestinian civilians into "safe zones" and launched attacks on them purposefully. They've attacked aide (food, water, medicines...) organization sites and convoys because unarmed starving and injured civilians were reported to be gathering there for help or to stop aide from arriving. The "human shield" excuse used has been nullified by multiple international organizations. Reporters have been banned and more than one have been killed for reporting on Gaza conditions by Israel. Aide to civilians has been cut off with false (no basis and then proven false on top of it) by Israeli using "but Hamas" excuses. Israeli politicians have on multiple occasions for years but more baldly lately stated that they are interested in purifying the area, cleaning it of "vermin", etc. speaking of the Palestinians. Do not take my or anyone's word in either direction on this here. Go and do the digging, it is worth it.
The idea that Israelis have the right to target Hamas regardless if they’re surrounded by civilians is the issue. US troops waited months monitoring their targets before killing them to avoid massive casualties.
I thought the US invasion was responsible for somewhere in the ballpark of 300,000 civilian deaths though? No offense but I feel like that's a bad example
Palestine ≠ Hamas. let’s get that straight first. you’re attributing the atrocities committed by hamas to palestine. which is incredibly incorrect and exactly how Netanyahu has ‘justified’ his slaughter of Palestinians.
> Palestine ≠ Hamas. let’s get that straight first. you’re attributing the atrocities committed by hamas to palestine. Palestine is different from Palestinian civilians but Hamas is the state of Palestine, they are the legal government of Palestine. Saying Palestine =/= Hamas is like saying the Nazi's =/= the German Reich.
Mainly because it's a big nation beating up on poor children who's lives they've tried hard to make miserable for decades. It's harder by far to have sympathy for Israel given that you know basically any history of the conflict. Also, Gaza fights because it is not free. Israel fights in spite of its own freedom. If Gaza were actually free, they'd no longer have a reason to fight, Hamas might eventually disappear etc. I also have more sympathy for Palestine because of what's they've been through. The reason most of them are children is that their adults have been systematically killed by Israel for decades. If I were born into such a reality I might find myself capable of unspeakable act in the name of revenge. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, but damn I get it too.
The worst and hardest part about terror organisations is that they hide within the population and use people to shield and protect themselves. Their is no easy awnser. The same thing happen in Iraq and we know these shock and awe tactics the USA started, and Israel is using horrific outcome for locals. For me, it is important that you separate he Jewish religion from the Israel state and the same with Palestine nation and the radical Islam group Homas
There are elements on both sides where peace between the two sides doesn't suit their agenda. As in all wars it's the innocents who suffer
Is not “everyone” but it is the youth and the reason is because all the know is the Hollywood concept of top dog vs under dog - bug versus small and they THINK the Palestinian are these innocent underdog victims - when in reality is quite the opposite
You’re supposed to support the ending of civilian deaths. Remember also that Israel has the full-throated backing of the US and is a developed country whereas Gaza is an incredibly impoverished and now utterly annihilated hellscape with inhabitants that have no passport and no genuine State. Gazans are trapped, Israelis are free. https://youtu.be/DF1DJ9MJ88s?feature=shared https://youtu.be/vQMdUeEX4PI?feature=shared&t=1400
Thank you for the resources
"Free Palestine" has been a movement long before the current war. It's because Palestine was colonized by Israel, Israel has a history of displacing and deeper enforcing the apartheid system. Killing civilians on either side is absolutely wrong, but Israel is an oppressor on Palestine and has been for over fifty years now.
"Palestine" isn't a "side" that is killing anyone. Palestine is a population of many people who are being persecuted and killed. Hamas and the Israeli government are killing people. The people of Palestine should be "free." Supporting that freedom isn't picking a side. It is supporting the right of people to not be killed or removed from the place they live.
> "Palestine" isn't a "side" that is killing anyone. Palestine absolutely is a side. That side is their government, that government is called Hamas. Hamas is the legal, rightful, democratically elected government of Palestine.
I mean no disrespect, but honestly, your new position sounds a lot like "all lives matter." Yes, all innocent deaths are wrong, but only a few countries are going through a genocide and Palestine is one of them.
It's a very complicated history, which combines the history of the region, the history of Muslims and Jews in general, along with US foreign policy. To give a very general and broad overview; Israel and Palestine came about as a decolinization of a territory the British gained from the Ottomans after ww1 in the Sykes - Picot agreement. They were, at birth, intended to be two states. There was a lot of history, some invasions by neighbouring states, the Palestinian government was shattered, and Israel has been occupying the Palestinian land since, as well as sending settler-colonialists to populate it, mostly by tying movement to Palestine to government benefits. The people who are saying "Free Palestine" aren't a homogenous unit. Some are calling for the removal of Israel as a state as well as the deportation of Jews from Palestine (I use Palestine here as a term for the region, not the country, both Israel and Palestine are withing the region of Palestine, but only one is called Palestine, not confusing at all) some call for simply the removal, restructing or replacing of the Israeli government, and some simply want Israel to stop militarily occupying Palestine. The movement also has varying opinions on Hamas, ranging from "We shouldn't tell the Palestinians how to resist genocide" to "Violence against civilians is never justified" I'm not going to provide my own opinions because honestly this topic has exhausted me. But that's as concise a guide as I can give to the history of the region and the modern Pro-Palestine movement.
> the Palestinian government was shattered, There was never a Palestinian government unless you're talking about the British. After 1948 there was Israel, Egypt, and Jordan. There wasn't any Palestinian state. (technically it took a few years for Egypt to annex their puppet Gazan government but close enough, they never actually governed anything)
It’s not really that complicated. Here’s a 1902 article from the NYT discussing plans to colonize Palestine with Jews: https://www.nytimes.com/1902/01/06/archives/plan-of-colonizing-palestine-with-jews-zionists-discuss-problem-in.html Remember this 40 years before the holocaust, and way before Hamas existed as an excuse to slaughter Palestinians and take their land. We say free Palestine because it is colonized, stolen territory by Europeans in the final act of colonization in the era of European dominance over the world. Free them from the Zionist entity and give them back their humanity. When Palestinians resist violently, it is because it’s their only resort. Those who hold power in the world have signed off on their extermination. To condemn their resistance is like condemning a slave revolt as opposed to condemning the slavery that forced them into a position where armed resistance is their only hope. It’s like condemning Native American raids on frontier villages back in the 1700s. It makes you complicit in the extermination of a people.
1902 and still a goddamn paywall.
https://imgur.com/a/pXPavIR enjoy :/
Wanting a free Palestine does NOT equal support for Hamas, the group currently in power in Gaza. If anything, a free Palestolones decades ago (or all along) would have prevented the rise of Hamas. Important to note that Isareli Prime Minister Netanyahu, one of Israels biggest opponents to Palestinian statehood, spent years supporting and propping up Hamas to weaken the PLA and keep the Palestinians politically divided.
This is a simplification, but this is why. 1. Palestinians as a people are not killing civilians. Hamas, their government, did kill civilians. 2. Israel has been killing Palestinian civilians nearly every day for over 75 years. 3. Israel helped put Hamas in power in Palestine for this exact reason. There are dozens of quotes from Israeli officials about how supporting Hamas is the best way to destabilize Palestine. That is why they helped get Hamas elected in 2006 (an election has not been held since) instead of the more peaceful party of Fatah.
You're making the destinction for Palestinians and their government/country, but you're not doing the same for Israel. Why can you not just say, that you're upset with the situation and want no civilians to die and be in this shitty situation
What percentage, would you guess, of people who have died in this conflict are Israeli? How about Palestinian? There is an obvious disparity in civilian deaths in this conflict.
Not for lack of trying though. Israel just has a better defense system but is constantly being barraged by missiles,
The civilians will always be the causalities or war. It's so sad seeing innocent people getting killed everyday.
Palestinians aren't "casualties" here, they're the target.
The culprit to this issue, like always, are the British. Had the British not meddle in colonization in the Middle East, the Middle East will have been much peaceful.
israelis aren’t living under palestinian military occupation
Israel was created to give the Jewish people a safe monoculture, monotheist homeland that was historically theirs. Palestinians also has also been there for 100's of years. 1,000+ if memory serves me. So their own claim isn't inconsequential. They both have a HEAVY claim. But it's like trying to choose if French territory belongs to Germany, or German territory belongs to France. Both have historic ties. Both would be the loser if the other got their way. No matter what, there is going to be a JUSTIFIABLY unhappy party, in terms of right to land, government power, etc. But in the case of Israel and Palestine? Palestine has insurgent forces running an offensive against Israel. Not a defensive campaign, despite claiming a Palestinian allegiance and pro-Palestinian goals. Israel has government military killing civilians with bullets, starvation, deprivation, exposure. One side has randos kicking a hornet's nest that deserves to be kicked. The other side already has the winning hand, but is trying to grind the other's civilians into bones, and their bones into dust. The right outcome is to depose the Israeli leadership that allows their own government to do this. Because, no matter the outcome otherwise, these guys are pure evil. They threw away any denial of that long ago. But that doesn't mean all of Israel is evil, just like not all Palestinians are evil because of Hamas.
1/1 A brief history lesson of the region. In light of all of this "pro-Israel/anti-Palestine" rhetoric I've been reading these last few days, I think it's time for good old Uncle Alan to dust off his soap box with the hope he can help provide some greater context to the tragedies that are being committed by both Israel and Palestine. Now, before we go any further, I want to establish a few basic truths and rules for the discussion. 1. I am not pro or anti-Israel 2. I am not pro or anti-Palestine. 3 I AM pro-PEOPLE, so I DO stand for the PEOPLE of Israel and I DO stand for the PEOPLE of Palestine. (4 out of 5 Israelis disagree with the way their OWN government is handling the situation) 4. I'm not here to engage in my opinion, beyond a certain point. (case in point: I think Netanyahu is a conservative extremist with a nationalist bent AND that Hamas is an organization using radical means to fight Israel) 5. My kids identify as Muslim (mom's side, not mine) and some of the most important people in my life are Jewish. Most importantly: 6. If you feel you have a fully formed opinion on this topic and there is no room in your brain for new historical context, new information (in general), and/or have the idea that one side is 100% right and the other 100% wrong: this discussion isn't for you. It's a discussion, not an argument. Full stop. So, now that we've established some basic framework, let's start with what most would effectively consider to be "Modern History", since so many people have grown up in a United States that has broadcast a "Israel good, Palestine bad" message for a literal hundred years and didn't care to know the actual history of it all. From a historical standpoint, the following three things are objectively true: A. Prior to 1948, Israel did not exist. B. Prior to 1948, Palestine had been in existance in one form or another as far back as the 5th Century BC (having been conquered multiple times) C. Hamas was not a thing prior to 1948. Let me say that again: There was no such thing as Israel prior to "May 14, 1948". The term "Palestine" first appeared in the 5th century BCE (Before Christ, if you're sectarian about it) when the ancient Greek historian Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" between Phoenicia and Egypt There was no "Hamas". So, the land you know as Palestine today has been populated by the people of Palestine, aka "Palestinians", for literal thousands of years. Sidebar: Rome controlled and burned Jerusalem in early 60's as punishment for resistance, so the whole "Jews were there first and were pushed out by Arabs" is historically inaccurate to a significant degree. ... And that's -0060's, not the 1960's, by the way. Anyway, more modern awareness of Palestine is based on what's largely regarded as "Ottoman Palestine" which existed for approximately 400 years prior to the1940s United Nations forced PARTITIONING. (where have you heard that word in conjunction with Great Britain before, folks?) In case you're wondering: yes the Ottoman Empire existed as recently as the early 1900's and basically ended with WWI. (the way they talked about it in 5th grade history, you'd think they were a thing that happened thousands of years ago) 1/1
Saying there was no Israel before 1948 is really over simplifying the history and falls into intellectual dishonesty in the name of semantics. In fact your entire post is simplified in an incredibly dangerous way. The very word Palestine was rooted in anti semitism. You are unequivocally ignoring the roots of Israel and how it was used prior to 1948. I am not sure why it’s so difficult for people to understand Israelites (Jews) have been scientifically proven to be native to Canaan. I’ll give you three guesses on what part of the modern world is Canaan. You’ve totally erased Mizrahi Jews from your post. You seem to be focusing on modern Ashkenazi Jews, expand your knowledge and learn from actual experts. I believe in the Jewish people I do not believe in the Israeli government. I support the Palestinian people. But facts are facts.
I'm really suspicious if you're asking this question in good faith. No one in the world, outside of Israel, is arguing that killing civilians is a good thing. But how many Israeli civilians have been killed in the past 7 months? Because the death toll of Palestinian civilians just crossed 36,000. That's 12 times the number of deaths from 9/11, just for frame of reference.
Palestine and Hamas are different groups.
As are Jews and the Israeli government. Mant people are either ignorant or antisemitic/islamophobic.
Because Israel is an apartheid state, as is confirmed by numerous human Rights organizations including[Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/), [Human Rights Watch](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution), [B'Tselem](https://www.btselem.org/publications/fulltext/202101_this_is_apartheid), and even the [UN](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/03/israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights#:~:text=GENEVA%20(25%20March%202022)%20%E2%80%93,in%20the%20occupied%20Palestinian%20territory.)
ruthless ancient cooperative vase gaze humorous smart chief pet shaggy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Watch this if you want more clarity: https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k?si=jtY-WyM_KYAdR2n8
Thank you for the resource
People like picking sides and forcing people to pick sides, which actually does more harm than good. Kudos for changing your perspective after learning a little more…which should be more commonplace but isn’t I guess. Being against both Hamas and Netanyahu’s government is a valid take, my take too. It’s not based on selective morality. I would also say that a two state solution requires a willingness to acknowledge the circumstances of both Israel and Palestine. I can see the number of upvotes going down as I’m typing, wonder why.
I don't think our brains are wired to have empathy for everything wrong happening in the world -- I believe this is a big reason we've all become so anxious. It was never required to absorb this much wrongdoing before the internet and real-time, instant news. Your own mental health is way more important than who to support on the other side of the planet. I also don't think you are not an empathetic person if you ignore chaos elsewhere. YOU don't have to do that, you have to make sure your and the people you love's lives are in order, and that is it.
I agree, I don’t think trying to be an “activist” is helpful at all for my mental health, I already have really bad anxiety, and learned that trying to be an activist all the time was harmful for my mental health when I was a teenager. I think it’s important to know what’s going on in the world and we shouldn’t be ignorant, but I think it’s okay to have my own life and not be so absorbed in everything that’s happening in the world. I have some friends who disagree and unfortunately I think I need distance from them
There are a lot of layers going on that everyone misses. 1.) The attack on Nov 7th 2023 was conducted by Hamas, who didn't inform allies and other factions in Palestinian areas. 2.) Hamas attack was split between indiscriminate killing and abducting civilians. 3.) Attacks were also made against Israeli military posts, with some temporary successes. Israel then began counter insurgency operations in the border region and pushed Hamas out of the Israeli territory - Israel decided to push into the Gaza to remove further possible threats and possibly rescue those kidnapped. This is when things started to go off the rails ... Israel began an operation of leveling all infrastructure and residencies in Northern Gaza, this pushed Palestinian civilians further south, but were under threat of attack by Israeli forces. Israel further extended it's operations southward and have basically bottled the Palestinians into the very edge of the border with Egypt - now Israel has begun strikes in the refugee camps. Israel has refused to pause operations to allow for aid to get to refugees and have had several aid agency missions attacked by Israeli aircraft. This is collective punishment, as Hamas was the ones behind the attack on Nov 7, 2023 and has gone far beyond any reasonable retaliation. The Israeli Settler movement has used this situation to attack Palestinians in the West Bank and have been disrupting aid convoys. Hamas doesn't represent all of Palestinians and doesn't justify blanket destruction of the civilian areas - this isn't to say Palestinians haven't done attacks on Israel, but the totality of the operations by Israel far outweigh the atrocity and has placed remaining hostages at risk from Israeli action, rather than the hostage takers. ( An Israeli patrol has been court martialed for the killing of three hostages, when the patrol happened on the escaped hostages.) This has also had a profound regional effect, as it's drawing in other middle eastern states into the conflict and has put global shipping at risk - which has completely undone all the work Israel had been doing in the last decade.
[удалено]
Just came here to say that I'm deeply impressed at the sanity expressed here (in the post and especially in the comments, which I expected would fly off the rails instantly...) I'm not going to add my opinion beyond saying that targeting civilians is wrong and awful, and I detest any group that does it - especially as policy. Thank you for restoring some of my faith here...
Yeah I was afraid everyone would come attacking me. I’m just genuinely confused. I plan to do more research on this and have done a little bit, but I was still confused by it
As per the IDF’s numbers, the number of Palestinian civilians killed in this conflict are at *least* 24,000, 2/3 of which are children (36,000 killed, 50% which are children. All men are being considered enemy combatants, so half of that are adult women.) The number of Israeli civilian deaths, including hostages, is around 1000. To add to that, residents of Gaza live in an area who’s border was already fenced in and they were not permitted to travel through, except for a handful of locations, and the border with Egypt, which doesn’t allow crossing most of the time. The IDF has also surrounded not just the majority of Gaza, but the *entirety* of all official refugee camps, where the majority of Gaza residents now live. I say this while being 100% opposed to Hamas, but Israel is the party with all the power in this situation.
In my view, having read history to some extent, they are all playing by very much pre-modern rules. They would happily go back to the good old days of fortified towns and city states, raiding each other and looting and pillaging and enslaving and slaughtering endlessly. They all need to mature massively.