You can't take "never say No/give your dog negative feedback" people or subs seriously. It doesn't work in the real world, and they just become angry, frustrated people who take it out on other humans bc they pretend that's morally superior to correcting errors the dog makes. I feel bad for newer dog owners who are introduced to this toxic new culture.
Trust your gut, do what works...and No, giving negative feedback to your dog does not in any way harm your bond. Neither do appropriate corrections, structure, solid leadership, prong collars, or any of the other stuff newer "trainers" want to vilify. It would be laughable, if it weren't so harmful to dogs, and newer owners.
These people act like dogs are so fragile. Corrections are a necessity. There is such a thing as over correcting, of course, but never correcting your dog for anything is a recipe for disaster, especially for more dominant breeds.
Yeah, that’s so frustrating. They confuse alpha theory with dominance theory and think that because the former was disproven that means the latter was as well. I have to wonder if they’ve ever seen dogs interact with each other. Dominance absolutely exists in dogs.
I've even read people saying that dogs aren't pack animals, like, what? They absolutley are pack animals, if you let them in the wild for some time they will go and find other dogs and form packs, I've seen packs of stray dogs
Absolutely. I’ve seen the pack mentality in groups of dogs before. It’s foolish to believe it doesn’t exist. I’ve never seen anyone suggest that dogs aren’t pack animals, but I did read a post once where someone said that dogs don’t have prey drives. Some people are just delusional.
Have they looked at dog's teeth? I don't think that they're made to chew on plants.
>Absolutely. I’ve seen the pack mentality in groups of dogs before.
My own dog has gone into pack mentality before, he is extremley influenced by other dogs' behaviour if he knows that dog (if they're calm he's calm, if they're alert he's alert). And he doesn't live with them! They just walk together several times a week.
This thinking of "They aren't pack animals" is very popular in reactive dogs forums, while even (most) reactive dogs can be part of a pack and would happily join one because is a basic neccesity, they've evolved for millions of yeara to live in packs, how could 10 k years of domestication change that?
You’d have to be out of your mind to think dominance doesn’t exist in dogs. That’s why you’ll never see the positive only trainers work with real dogs or if they do the solutions fall short and is not consistent at all.
The thing is if you go to the source and read the studies, they arent at all claiming that dominance between adult dogs/wolves doesnt exist. Only that it doesnt exist as strongly in packs formed of a breeding pair and their pups which is understandable. There was still dominant and submissive behaviours. However packs formed of adult indeviduals are a completely different situation and absolutely do have a stronger hierarchy which is needed to keep a pack functioning.
Fundamentally all the researchers are saying is that the ball busting alpha model of the 80s/90s isnt accurate.
The study also took place when the wolves were in their smaller parent pups packs, not when those smaller packs come together to hunt larger prey. In which case you can have more adults joining together. And researchers in yellowstone ect have found wolves with their throats torn out when these disagreements esculate.
They have literally taken one study and not only run with it but also cherry picked it to enforce what they want to find, which is ultimately bad scientific practice. Also dogs are far more neotenic than wolves which is a common by product of domestication.
The only way I got my parents mini shepherd to stop nipping (to the point he drew blood from multiple people) was to physically pin him by his scruff and use my meanest ‘bad dog’ voice on him. I didn’t let him up until he tucked his tail and wagged it and gave me a submissive ‘smile’.
It’s not a method I would *ever* recommend, it could have backfired horrible, it was just a last straw reaction when he nearly snapped my tendon with his teeth. But! Guess who doesn’t bite anymore! Plus, he’s always very happy to see me when I go over, so there’s no hard feelings.
The point is, like you said sometimes it’s just necessary to get firm with your dogs. If they never learn to behave, they’ll only get themselves hurt.
I tried it their way, I really did. It got us precisely nowhere.
I love my dog. I have the utmost patience for his training journey. He makes a ton of mistakes, but I don'r care, and am never angry with him, because I see him getting better and trying. We brush it off and try again, with lots of cuddles in between.
But I was just seeing zero progress with lots of problematic behaviour. He essentially made my partner's life a living hell.
Thank you for taking the time to write this.
My comment was removed for "misinformation" when I said it was important my dog learned "NO" to avoid dangerous situations. I guess I should just let him run in front of a car or fall off a cliff just so I can avoid any negativity.
This is what the positive only community seems to want. Or they want to spend 20 minutes figuring out what operant conditioning quadrant the technique is first before trying it which effectively communicates they are strictly adherent to a dogma and not effective training.
They’ll also say that dogs don’t understand “no” and it doesn’t make any sense to them. Maybe their dogs are just thick as mud because my dog learned what “no” meant very quickly.
I don't understand that logic at all. Somehow a dog can learn what sit/down/heel/yes/good/etc mean just fine but the word "no" is totally different for some magical reason.
So they may not be explaining it well but it does have logic.
1st, are you using No as a command/cue or a marker word?
2nd, if marker word, then a dog can absolutely understand that it's a no reward or negative marker. I use "uh oh", bc it keeps me from getting frustrated, whereas I find the word no repeated too many times wears down the handler's mood. I explain this to my clients as well. They can use No, but is it ramping up their own frustration?
If No is a command or cue, then what does it mean? Because a word can only mean one thing. That's why we suggest saying OFF for jumping off things like a table or sofa or bed and DOWN for laying down. So if No is a command/cue, then what is it asking the dog to do? It's much easier to teach a dog to do something than not do something. And not doing "something" is too general. A command to not do something would need to be specific to that thing. Don't eat the food on the floor wouldn't be the same as don't get on the sofa.
But typically what I see is that people use No to mean a stop/freeze/stay behavior. This can be used as one command for one behavior and generalized to many situations.
So the logic behind not using "no" is that most often with uneducated owners, the word doesn't mean anything or it means everything. In dog training, 1 word = 1 behavior. But technically, yes, you can turn it into an effective no reward marker or an actual cue. Just do the work beforehand to decide what it is you want your dog to do when you say "no" so that you can create clarity.
I hope that helps you understand the logic. It sounds like you've thought clearly about what kind of cue you want, and it's working.
I can understand that if someone is trying to use it as a command. I use it as a marker, basically it means whatever my dog is doing when she hears it is incorrect if that makes sense. But for sure uneducated owners could confuse the hell out of their dog with it if not used properly.
the whole dog not understanding no schpiel is derived from the same cherry picking of studies that they use to validate the rest of their ideology.
they belief that no doesn't work, it's because it isn't a command to do something, it's a command to do the opposite of something, so they think the dog can't possibly get it. We use "ahah" with our boys, but you could use "gimminy willickers batman" if delivered in the right tone to indicate you don't want the dog to do something they are doing or going to do. We always (try) to follow "ahah" up with a clear command that they do know, such as place or sit or whatever. Because we have noticed that sometimes when we say "ahah" and they stop doing what they are doing, they get a bit confused as to what they are supposed to do next. The follow up command to indicate what we'd like them to do instead has been massively helpful for us.
So did mine and what ah-ha means.
And he isnt a repressed, trembling little waif either. He knows he isnt allowed on the bed. Whered i find him yesterday, on the bed snoring with his tongue out, head on the pillow.
If he is so scared of being verbally corrected, why would he risk it for a nap on a satan pillowcase huh?
Yeah. Positive only got us nowhere as well. It’s so unfortunate that that’s what’s being sold to new owners and anything else is abusive. Like … pray tell how that actually makes any sense once you understand how dogs think. I’ll wait.
> I tried it their way, I really did. It got us precisely nowhere.
When my young dog was very young, we drove up to a dock diving event one weekend.
At the end of the day, I opened her crate door in my car, and told her to hop up. She backed up and said nope, not getting in, wanna dive again.
I told her again, same result.
So I picked her up, and tossed her into the crate. Told her she was a good girl, and hauled her out and put her back on the ground.
Told her hop up again. Same result, except now she really wanted to bite me. :)
Picked her up again, and tossed her in. Told her she was a good dog, and hauled her out again.
Told her hop up, and this time she said, OH SHIT, and hopped in. She got a ton of cookies, I closed the crate door, and we drove home.
And that was the last time she was a turd about getting into the car.
What didn't I do? Use cookies to lure her in, cajole her with baby talk. She knew what I was asking, she knew her job and she was not doing it. So yes, she was corrected by me taking her options away and tossing her into the crate.
She was given the option to be correct at the start and she wasn't. That was fine, but we were not going to stand there all night while she made up her mind. As the one with thumbs, I get to call the shots.
I can't deal with those people. Every time I see a post for help about an older dog being bad I know its someone who prescribed to that crap.
You have to tell your dog no, just like children. It is not damaging to be told you can't do what you want. It IS damaging to never tell them no. It is bad training to never discipline your dog, but you can't tell them that. Even as their 1 yr old giant breed is biting people.
Discipline doesn't equal abusing, screaming or hitting your dog. But you can't reason with unreasonable.
I'm training to become a trainer, and at two different locations where I've observed group classes, the (R+, certified CPDT) trainers have taught some sort of mistake marker to dog owners, for example "ah, ah". It's never in a stern or emotional tone, and usually the dog quickly goes back to the "right" behavior (for example if they break a sit/stay they go back into position). It's not the same thing as scolding or yelling at a dog and it's frustrating to see it equated that way.
This all day long. Tone/action from the handler should match the scenario. I’m not going to yell at my puppy when he gets a little further ahead than I want while I’m doing something in my kitchen. I may raise my voice quite a bit more if I’m walking him outside and he’s not responding to low tone, but I also might not because just yelling more if he’s not listening won’t accomplish anything, and if I do yell because a low tone didn’t work and he listens then i guarantee he won’t be traumatized because there was an overpowering stimulus pulling his attention. Then when he does listen it’s excited and happy words marking/rewarding instantly so he knows he’s not in trouble.
Dogs absolutely learn the marker for a mistake just like they learn the marker for doing the right thing. Once they learn both it really helps with training.
Yep non reward marker. I use "oopsie try again". Some sensitive dogs feel crushed by this. I find it communicates better with my young dog as she learns
I was watching a video by Denise Fenzi the other day about this subject. I agree with it even if it may be a softer stance than most on this sub.
She said (paraphrasing here) that there's nothing inherently wrong with telling a dog "no". A lot of people (including her) will say it out of reflex, and you probably won't train yourself out of it. You just have to be mindful of how often you're saying it and in what contexts.
Does your dog know the correct action to take?
If so, are there any circumstances that may be making the known behavior more challenging?
Are you expecting too much out of your dog?
If you find yourself saying more "nos" than "yeses" to your dog, it may be a sign that you need to take a step back. You don't want to needlessly frustrate or confuse your dog.
Having said that, sometimes they need to know that they made the wrong choice. If I tell my dog to stop begging for my food, and she then jumps up on me that's going to get a "no" from me. If I tell her to leave the gross dead animal and she tries to roll on it, that's getting a "no" as well. If I ask her to sit and she lays down, that won't get a "no", just no treat and I'll repeat the cue. My relationship with my dog won't be damaged by any of these.
I wish I had the video link but even a Caesar Milan video had him teaching the owner to discourage a behavior. The dog did it, and the owner slightly yelled "no". Caesar said "you don't need to yell." They did it again and the owner did a calm, but firm, even toned "no". All good.
I think a lot of people confuse a firm "no" with NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
You have observed and feel that your bond with your dog got stronger. Your dog is calmer and happier. Focus on what got better for your dog, ignore people and algorithms that don’t know you, and the before and after for your dog.
I got deleted a bunch of times before I left those subs (and as people with a different opinion leave they become more of an echo chamber), because I mentioned that I used prong collar for one of my dogs.
My dog is so much happier and calmer to have clear communication. She is not a dog who likes to have choices in certain situations. She got very anxious even to have to choose. Now that she had training on what is appropriate, she is much calmer, and can enjoy sniffing around instead of freaking out. She also knows to look at me to ask for information before making a bad choice that may be dangerous.
People (including trainers) with only their own limited experience comment on your situation from their perspective without knowing the dog in front of you (news flash: one method does not fit all). My other dog is a p+ poster child, the second one forced me to learn about and open up to different approaches which kept her at home.
Edit: i keep thinking about how the group seems to have gone from “you are a monster if you use a prong” to “you are a monster if you say no”. Others have mentioned, dogs need to know meaning of both yes and no to learn. We would be damaging our relationship by giving only 50% of the information and not helping them live in our world.
I guess that is what frustrates me the most about it all is the one size fits all assumption. The positive only is great in theory, but if it doesn't fit your dog's personality, then somehow it is your fault?
I was on the positive-only subs for awhile. Took me all of 2 months of having my dog to realize it’s insane. That’s not how dogs communicate with us or how they communicate with each other or *how they expect to be communicated with.* A balance of negative reinforcement (a firm “no”) with lots of positive reinforcement is a way more effective way of training a dog imho.
The positive only subs are so quick to ban because they’re bitter and overwhelmed that their dogs are unruly and anxious and they just take it out on humans lmao. My dog is so well-behaved for a six month old puppy, and largely that’s just her disposition, but also I haven’t been afraid to use a firm “no” when needed.
She also now fully responds to my exasperated sighs when she’s doing something she knows she shouldn’t, before I have to correct or redirect, depending. The sigh is enough. It’s pretty cute.
Mine is rambunctious, very rowdy, pushy and not a particularly willing dog but is the same way. Each month my tone becomes softer and softer and he looks to me now.
Hahaha that's so cute! My dogs seem to understand my varying levels of "no" - my 3yo definitely understands when my tone means "you can carry on what you're doing but chill out a bit" and when I mean "stop that entirely right now" and my 1yo is getting there but he's a terrier so I anticipate that for the next 3-4 years he will not understand any form of no except one at full force - anything else is merely a suggestion to be totally ignored at his discretion 😅 it's like any training aid, you use it less and less as time goes on, and the more you set them up for success the less you have to use it. I very rarely have to tell my cav no any more, generally the most he gets is an "excuuuuuuuse me!" for trying to sneak closer to my food 😂
ETA: can confirm the frustration levels the "don't ever say no" crew have - my mum used to complain I told my old dog "no" too much. She prefers to ignore her current pup's (litter mate of my terrier) behaviour until it's so fucking obnoxious she can't stand it and yells at him. Then she feels bad she's spent all the day feeling cross with him. While I'll tell my two "NO, will you two PACK IT IN", then I spend the rest of my time just enjoying my dogs 🤷🏼♀️ I think most dogs, given the choice, would prefer one clear "no" to tell them what I don't want rather than sensing the building frustration of everyone around them and not understanding the cause but maybe that's just me 🤔
I do positive reinforcement only training and have for years (I don’t judge the use of other tools for certain challenges, I’ve just personally had better results with positive reinforcement with my dogs), but honestly I visit this sub bc it’s gotten a bit crazy over there about certain things even when they are definitely still under the umbrella of positive reinforcement. A calm No is definitely still part of positive reinforcement training and is no different than ah-ah if used correctly. I’m not sure where this misconception got started but it’s crazy how often I see it now. The original argument against No in dog training is that the word No on its own isn’t a command a dog can understand and it’s easy to yell it loudly when frustrated. So just shouting No repeatedly at a misbehaving dog makes them anxious and confused. But something like “Sit. No, Sit” is literally perfectly fine and no different from “Sit. Ah-ah, Sit.”
I'm curious your take on this. You're walking down the street and another dog is coming near. If your dog starts reacting to that dog, how would you handle it? (sincere question, not trying to bait an argument)
First thing I’d attempt is the Focus command, it’s what we use for ‘look at me’. So essentially stop looking at the other dog and make eye contact. Sometimes that’s enough to get disengagement. If having her make eye contact with me isn’t enough to refocus her (like she just goes straight back to trying to boof/moves towards the dog), then I’d try a string like “focus, sit, let’s go” which would be look at me and sit, followed by her command to continue walking, positive marker after each success. If that won’t work, and other dog is rapidly approaching, we’ll give her the “off to the side” command, move her away from the sidewalk and put her in “down/stay” until the dog passes.
If both dogs are reacting/potential dangerous situation, I want to immediately get some distance before trying to refocus her. So in that case, I’d break out her command that I know is near 100%, which is her recall (we practice this a lot, at home, outside, with distractions, outside to inside, upstairs to downstairs, in the middle of her eating, etc) so I’d then give the command ‘Lexi, COME.’ which I say while tapping my leg with my hand loud enough for her to hear (it’s our hand motion for her recall command), and then the instant she starts moving towards me, Id immediately guide that momentum while giving the “Cross” command, and just cross the street before she even thinks about engaging again. Once we’re far enough away that it’s no longer potentially dangerous, I can then safely work on getting her fully refocused without having to worry about the situation escalating.
Then in the future, if we see the same dog approaching, I would try to get a little distance ahead of time. Once we’re not in close proximity, I’d work on some engage/disengage training with her while specifically watching that dog.
To be fair though, we got our current girl at 8 weeks old, so we didn’t have any established behavioral issues to untrain.
But also to address sort of the underlying question here/another topic mentioned in this thread. If there is a situation that is potentially dangerous, and I cannot get my dog to listen and I need her to do something for her own health/safety, I will restrain her. It’s certainly something that would probably be scolded by some of the “never say no” crowd, but I worked at a vet center during college, and if it could potentially save my dog from serious injury or death, I would give the command (so she isn’t startled) and I would put her in either a Down or Sit restraint. I’d then still give her the positive marker and rewards afterwards to encourage her for the future, but if it’s a seriously dangerous situation, I will make sure she’s safe first and foremost.
Absolutely terrible. You should stop immediately and hire a trainer with an alphabet soup of letters after their name (paying money to take a written test from an unregulated certifying organization is the most important qualification when choosing a trainer, don't get fooled by trainers that actually have a track record of getting good results).
It may seem like you dog is better now, but actually your dog is the world's best liar and faking everything. One day in the future he may randomly turn on you like Cujo because of the severe psychological damage caused by letting your dog know you don't like something they're doing.
Any replies that challenge my personal and very narrow philosophy on training will be censored. My way is the only way and the best way of proving it is by silencing or scaring anyone who disagrees in any way.
No, giving negative feedback will not emotionally harm your dog. They need to know what is expected of them. Obviously don’t scream at the top of your lungs at them, but a firm “no” is far from abuse. I give my dog corrections when necessary. I’m fair, but firm. She still loves me, she still likes to be around me. She isn’t adverse to me and she certainly isn’t traumatized by it. She’s cuddling with me as I type this.
I’ve had a comment or two removed from those positive only subs. I feel like they’re a bit trigger happy about it.
Save yourself some grief in life. Don't try to argue with people who don't use logic. It's a waste of time and does no good. Just move on and focus on more productive things.
>I love my dog with all my heart. The reason for thw deleted post suggested that our bond could be irrepearably harmed and that I could cause life long psychological harm to my puppy. I don't want that.
If a dog hearing "no" or, "knock it off" or, whatever was going to harm a dog, millions of us would have broken dogs.
A correction gives a dog information, just as a cookie does.
A correction doesn't have to be devastating and over the top or harmful.
If my dog is about to run out the front door and I tell him, "STOP", that "STOP" won't hurt him. Running out the door may.
There is a huge gulf between not giving a dog information via corrections, and, abusing the dog with corrections. People who actually DO follow LIMA are going to look at the least aversive methods to train a dog first but will, if they have to use corrections.
I do dog sports: I cant think of anyone who is a force free trainer(sic). People I see skew very, very R+, but if a dog is about to run out of a car crate when it's opened, that won't be solved by waving cookies at the dog. ditto if a trainer dog decides to tow the owner thru the icy parking lot in February.
> KNOCK IT OFF. Is one of my favorite things to say, lol.
IKR?? And I don't have to be mean or loud about it, but they know that whatever it is that they're doing, needs to stop, now.
dogs really aren't delicate flowers. I don't understand how someone can look at say a Golden Retriever, who has been bred to deal with still alive birds, spurring or pecking them in the face, who can swim thru a stick pond, run thru sticker bushes, and otherwise deal with things in their way and be ok, but somehow words will hurt them.
Or a Cattle Dog, bred to deal with cattle that want to kick them in the head, but who still go in and tell the cow what to do...these are tough animals, and giving them boundaries won't hurt them.
I really don't know how this all gets twisted because I'm basically R+. I don't use tools, and I give my dogs boundaries and clarity. I don't know where this myth of positive reinforcement meaning permissive because none of the R+ trainers I know train that way either.
All I can gather is that there are bad trainers out there using every technique or methodology and they give us all a bad name.
> I really don't know how this all gets twisted because I'm basically R+
Same. I teach all agility R+. I use a clicker, marker words, toys and cookies.
Maybe someone will consider weave wires aversive but seriously they're not...
I teach obedience, competitive obedience about 99% positive. About the only time there are actual corrections is if a dog insists on forging, we're gonna dog a lot of slow heeling and left turns. Again, not sure if that's aversive. My dogs don't think so.
I think the disconnect and distaste comes from people who call themselves FF trainers. They're training pet dogs, and they're refusing to look at the owner and the dog and use what works, and is fair, and will produce a dog that the owners can live with.
So if they get a client who has a just out of rescue or a shelter big powerful dog, with zero manners, they're trying to produce a dog who can walk on a leash, without using a prong collar. Or leash corrections. and while some trainers can do that (I can), they're almost always working with puppies, who are biddable, and who have no existing baggage to fix.
So my 8 week old puppies? I can teach them to walk on a leash and not be jerks, pretty quickly. No prong, no corrections.
Someone's 8 year old pit-mix, who pulls right thru a collar and tows the human down the street? Teaching that dog to stop that sort of thing can be done in a few sessions with a prong collar, or the rest of that dog's life, with a bag of cookies, that the dog may or may not care about.
And those trainers have a deservedly bad rep. The main goal should be keeping that dog in the home they have wound up in, and if that means some corrections to help them understand, oh well.
Susan Garrett has long said, positive is not permissive. And that's how baby puppies can learn to behave on a leash, and come when called, without an corrections, just via control of the environment and patience.
An older dog, with, a life spent doing whatever, may need more than that. I think that's realistic.
This is what you do.
You ask them who their mentor is, their dream dog trainer.
Then you research that person and see reality. Watch their videos and read their blogs.
Do you want a dog like that trainer and live like that trainer? Chances are no.
Oh friend, I'm so sorry you've been made to feel this way. Everything you said about communication is correct. Communicating to your dog that they are doing something bad is a GOOD thing. You want them to recognize that cue in case you need it to stop them from dangerous behavior. It is not fair or safe to never teach a dog the idea of "no"
Even if you use R+ methods for everything else, teaching them "ah-ah" or "no" is absolutely vital for your lifelong bond and communication.
Thank you so much.
And I am using positive reinforcement for almost everything. This is challenging, cos he's not food driven, nearly at all! So I have had to turn every command and cue into its own game( which he is much more responsive to).
I've not found a great deal out there on this kind of training, so there has been a lot of creative problem solving. I've put so much of myself into this, employed so much trial and error, and worked so hard on it that I struggle when people even hint that I don't care/ abuse my pupper.
I guess that's a me problem, but still. Right now, he is my whole life.
> his is challenging, cos he's not food driven
Use life rewards :-) To get what he wants (walk, attention, toy, dinner, pass thru a gate, etc) he does something for you. I work with independent primitive breeds and rarely use food.
Not bad at all! The results speak for themselves. I train almost exclusively with positive reinforcement, but even my own dog - a highly reactive working shepherd - knows that when I say "ah" he is to stop WHATEVER it is he is doing. Because I can install/train any behavior I want, but there are still times he makes his own decisions in unique situations, and sometimes that decision is not the one I want. He has never been hit, shocked, or any silly disproven techniques like a dominance roll. I taught him no means no the same way I taught him everything else he knows.
'ah-ah' to me is a Negative Bridge Word, 'NO' is a Verbal Correction, I use wrong but in a very monotone and mid volume way.
'good' is my Positive Bridge Word and 'YES' is my makrer word.
Yes is my excited reward aka come get food hype
Good is my calm reward aka keep doing this behaviour and earn a reward.
Tbh I much prefer using my attention as the reward. If my dog does something I don't like, don't want to reward or are completely over activated/fustrated, I will physically turn my face low and to the side move my hands behind my back and completely stop moving. The second the dog is stationary for a second I give the attention back and start fresh.
I don't think using a verbal correction is going to 'ruin' a bond but I think OVER using could. If 90% of what you are saying to the dog is NO then the dog could start simply thinking any time you are around he will get yelled at.
Ya know, I tried the passive corrections a lot at first. Ignoring him, turning away, even getting up and walking away from him when he was on a demon streak.
None of it made a dent. If anything, it heightened his arousal, made him almost desperate. Demand barking would often follow.
I really like how you delineate ah ah, good and yes. I look forward to incorporating it into my boys training.
My ACD is high for my attention and has a really low fustration level. If he doesn't get what I'm asking first or second try he gets extremely upset. He will start rapid firing positions and even get nippy. He definitely NEEDED a more clear 'NOT THAT RELAX' command lol.
Now I have been conditioning that command into an action! Which has been going extremely well. Every time I had to use the command, I use "WRONG" in a deep, normal volume voice. Once he layed down and settled. I would say 'good' and then 'place'. Wait for calm n place and then reward. So it's now been turning into him realizing he is fustrated and choosing to go to the place cot tell me he needs to reset. It's wild seeing him learn how to communicate with me better!
People get very upset over the use of corrective terms. I don’t use them when I train but it’s mostly because I find that there are better ways to communicate them to tell them something is incorrect.
Instead of telling them No because you don’t like what they’re doing, ask them to do the skill they know to do instead. Then mark and reward the correct skill.
So much of it is really just that we can communicate more effectively by communicating what we want instead of what we don’t. When we communicate that what they’re doing is incorrect it does not give them information as to what they could do instead, only that the behavior they chose is incorrect.
It doesn’t mean you’ve permanently damaged your relationship. And I wish people would take more time to explain why we choose not to use it instead of just telling people they’re wrong and terrible.
I advise avoiding those subs. They're not interested in an outcome that's best for the dog, they just want to feel superior to everyone else, regardless of the dog.
The vast majority of positive only dog trainers are useless, these people can’t have their dogs in public off leash around distractions, don’t bother with them.
Nothing really to add that others haven’t; just a hearty congratulations to you and your dog for escaping the cult.
Train your dog in whatever way works best for you both. If you’re not comfortable with physical corrections that’s absolutely fine, to each their own, but no dog has ever needed a psych evaluation because of a fair verbal correction. These people are out of their damn minds.
No.
It’s a complete sentence.
It is appropriate for snarky teens, young pups learning their boundaries and uptight “precious” trainers wannabes who honestly believe that saying “no” is toxic.
Without “no” then what is “YESS!!”?
You sound like you sorted thru the bs and found a reasonable approach, and the 2 of you doing perfectly well, congrats OP!
Sometimes (many times) the normal way is perfectly appropriate.
Watch a bitch correct her puppies. Watch perfectly happy dogs correct each other playing together. Watch them be completely happy looking like wolves that are going to eat each other's face off while they're playing and sleeping next to each other five minutes later.
My rule of thumb with any animal is that correction at a level they understand is a useful tool, if you use it right. Horses freaking kick each other. That's a damn 500 pound piston with brass knuckles permanently attached that they use to communicate with you when they're uncomfortable, that's how they're talking. So when I need to talk back, it isn't baby talk and pets on the forehead, it's a level of pressure that a horse understands and reacts to. That isn't abuse, it's communication.
With a dog, they can play hard. They use teeth and paws to do it. That's a lot of why prong and ecollars work, because they're mimicing the way dogs correct each other (sharp, quick jabs to their neck). But you have to use them properly. Again, dogs that are generally friendly and just correcting each other will be sharp, quick, and done. It's just a 'no, that's too much' reaction, then off you go.
A lot of people get into this train of only positive and never correcting your dog because they never see it done well, or can't do it well themselves. If you're in a bad headspace, you can't manage a dog whose in a bad spot. If you're inexperienced, what is actually nothing might sound like a fight, and what's about to be a fight might be completely silent and you have no idea what's about to happen until it's a whirlwind tornado of dog.
Most owners mash through the middle, somehow. We get there, and we have good pets. But I don't think positive only is a hard and fast thing.
Think about your own children: I would absolutely punish them for attempting to disobey my order not to touch a stove or run into a highway or run in front of a lawn mower or knock down a beehive. Some mistakes you just don't get to make without serious consequences, and some mistakes you just don't get to make at all. I will do anything in my power to keep you from making them, whether that means you need cool down in your crate or a strong correction/reprimand, etc.
I would prefer a reticent dog that I have to work hard to build back up vs a smear on pavement as roadkill. Sometimes you have to correct. 🤷
Yeah the positive only people are living in a dream world. No was one the first words Kora learned, she heard it a lot lol. For her No is just another command, nothing negative about it. She's also e-collar trained because when you've got a hound on a scent their ears turn off. No amount of calling is going to get through hound brain. It's amazing how a quick little buzz with the e-collar (at the appropriate level of course) can turn her ears back on.
Unless you dial it all the way up it's more of a weird tingle. Kora's working level is higher then I'd like to feel on me but for her it's barely an annoyance. I think that the problem is that people think it's the same strength as an electric fence you'd use for livestock.
That's really weird. Even my positive training groups use "No-reward" marks to let dogs know that's not what was wanted. It clears up frustration in the dog, especially if you're using a clicker to shape new behavior, and the dog is aware they need to try new things to earn a click.
Imagine how frustrating it is to be balancing on a ball or something and not know if you're supposed to wait for longer, stick a foot in the air, or you're entirely 'barking up the wrong tree.' A no reward mark lets them stop waving their legs around and try something else.
Giving feedback isn’t *negative*. The word “no” is a negating word but it doesn’t have to be received as negative emotionally.
“Ah ah” and “no” are not punishments, unless you make them punishments.
Punishing a dog doesn’t do any good. Guiding them does. Only saying “no” won’t teach the dog good behavior but withholding feedback until the dog does it right also won’t teach the dog good behavior.
Honestly, the monsters are the people that are anything but positive with other humans.
I use a no all the time. Delivered unemotionally in the middle of a training session my dogs know it means “that’s the wrong answer, you need to try something different”. If they aren’t going in the right direction, I make things easier.
It’s like playing a game of hot and cold, which would you prefer, the game where I say “hot” and “cold” or the version where I don’t say anything until you stumble on the solution, then I say “hot”.
Why do you feel like a monster?
IMHO/FWIW, the positive only community are a bunch of fear mongers that act like anything that isn’t treats/rewards equates to abuse. The only letters they don’t put in their profiles/credentials are psa level x or schutzhunde whatever (or whatever those are called now) because they can’t get a dog to that level. I realize that’s overkill for what most people need/want from a trainer, but I want a trainer that has at least worked with someone that has done this shit “for real” or has done it themself.
There is such a difference between using tools correctly, and I mean tools in the sense of approaches/techniques, and abusing a dog. I have yet to see someone show me multiple videos of a positive only trainer that has done legit behavior modification, and I say multiple videos because I want to see that they’ve done it for more than one dog.
“Ah-ah” and being against “no”? How delusional can they get? Seriously. My 12 week old puppy knows “no” and he hasn’t had a prong or anything like that on him….
One of the things that really helped me become a better handler was actually a scene from Yellowstone. It’s the scene where Travis is taking the one guy from Yellowstone to the 6666 ranch. Travis says something to the effect of “it’s you and a horse just trying to do a job.” When I heard that everything just clicked for me on handling/training. What am I trying to get my dog to do and how can I communicate effectively with them to facilitate that. Depending on what I’m trying to accomplish that will be different. It can be a correction with a prong (not this dog), using objects to help them learn correct body position (like putting something in front of them and walking sideways around it so they get where to stay for “heal/füss”), treats with luring to get them to learn the movement, etc…. Just like you said clear communication is key! The dog has to understand what you are trying to accomplish. I don’t speak dog, so I have to use a bag of tricks (metaphorically here) to communicate to my dog what to do.
Use as much positive reinforcment as possible but telling a dog no is not going to mess them up and ruin your bond.
Some people have borderline religious fanatic mentalities when talking about dog training. Dont ever tell them no or set boundries, every problem can be solved with love and cookies. Trouble is in the real world that often falls apart as soon as competing motivators enter the picture. Even when presented with evidence to the contrary they do some metal gymnastics to explain why anything but force free is wrong and abusive hanging onto their dogma like a flat earther at a science convention.
Then they see a dog trained to understand some things just aren't acceptable living a happy life following your expectations and boundries. Rather than admit there might be some limitations on their methods they bash the owner for not doing things the same way as them.
I was gobsmacked when I took my large breed puppy to puppy preschool & the trainer said to never use the word “No”. How ridiculous! I’ve had dogs all my life & this was the first time I’d come across that (well since I’d had kids and came across the gentle parenting movement - which is equally as ridiculous IMO). I was even less than impressed when she criticised my use of a martingale & went on to advise the class to run a mile from “balanced” trainers - apparently they are evil. 🙄
You aren’t a monster, you are just setting boundaries.
I got banned from a ‘positive only’ sub because someone was seeking advice on what to do with their aggressive husky that has attacked him and his other dog.
I said seek out a balanced trainer as the positive only methods weren’t working anymore and instant ban.
It sounds like you are gentle, clear, and firm- which is exactly what dogs need! You aren’t going to harm your dog by showing him boundaries respectfully- it will probably strengthen as you’ve already noticed.
I thought the same thing for a long time. When I started regularly working with a professional with a higher skill level than mine, she pointed out that what I thought was happiness was just appeasement. And the reason the “no” worked was because she’s INCREDIBLY sensitive.
Since I’ve stopped using it and also gone all the way back to basics and just focused on games, I’ve seen her excitement to learn and work with me return. Turns out, she’s the first dog I’ve ever had who finds play to be more rewarding than food. It also didn’t help that I’d over-relied on food to get through stressful situations that I’d just kind of thrown her into. So the “reinforcement” was all coerced and not very reinforcing at all.
Not saying this is your situation but something to consider.
I mean, if someone is using no like a punishment or being very jarring with it, that I don't agree with, and I'll exempt that situation from my take. But this was my original break from some of the more extreme R+ groups. They seem culty and run pretty parallel in input and advice to the R+ equestrian groups, with someone referencing the former as the "parelli of dog training", iykyk lmao. I bring it up because I know horses a lot better, worked various positions in the industry for over a decade as well as competed, etc. And the management and training strategies being advocated by, not all R+, but the extreme end of the spectrum groups specifically, aren't theoretically sound whatsoever. Like, they just do not make sense behaviorally with how horses interact socially.
After all, why would I trust someone who claims to be against all negative feedback for all living things, but chooses to spread this message by tiradeing against humans who are not engaging in abuse or widely established unacceptable behavior, and also meant no harm, and are also living things? If you can't keep to your own philosophy, you can't keep to your own philosophy.
Damn… I didn’t know that it went as far as not using a verbal no. I definitely use the ehh and no less often. No is like the serious stuff, ehh is like think and redirect buddy. No is completely fine as long as it’s used properly.
Those people have bought into a mindset that’s frankly ridiculous and when you challenge or attempt to negate their bias in any way they have a conniption. They can’t admit it’s awful because then they’d be wrong. These people are not smart or serious. There’s a shit ton of them across various subs here and mods here have a rule that you can’t disparage other dog subs or they also have a fit. Some of the puppy groups are the wrist and seems like their mods are 13 yr old PETA kids.
Do you think wild dogs only use positive reinforcement? Dogs use verbal AND physical discipline all the time with each other from nose to tail and they match their energy to the seriousness of the correction. I’m not a professional trainer but I’ve owned and self-trained large working and guardian breeds my whole long life- all of them have been highly obedient, properly behaved in public; just not a problem for anyone except someone with bad intentions. Balanced is best with MOSTLY positive. Applies to people, too. Imagine only getting positive feedback at your job when actually you were failing miserably and then one day inexplicably you’re fired. You wouldn’t guide your children through the world that way either.
Try positive only with a Cane Corso. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. I mean sure it may have decent results with idk maybe a Havanese or a King Charles but I wouldn’t attempt it with a Chihuahua or a Shiba or a Golden.
As a member of the positive community, I feel badly that they made you feel like a monster. You did what seemed least harmful with the skill set you had! Punishment is in the eye of the one receiving the feedback. The impact of the punishment may be improvement to the behavior, or a slightly more submissive dog. I doubt you destroyed the bond between you and your pet. To help you along with your training journey, I often recommend the following: Ensure you’re using a reward marker to inform the dog what is correct. If you find, after 5 repetitions that your dog is getting it “right” only 2 (or less ) out of 5, consider: Are asking too much, is your timing is off, is the environment in which your training is too exciting or scary, or is the reward too low of value? Lastly, try to make the correct answer VERY obvious to the dog. Ex: If you’re teaching a nose - hand target, you need to present your hand VERY close to the dog’s nose rather than feet away. You can further it by rubbing food on your hand to entice the dog, or use a lure to make it more literal.
Yeah, so I was over on Puppy101 and it's a joke, sorry (not sorry).
There was a thread about having your dog in Petsmart and how to prevent them from peeing. My post got deleted where I basically said, "if they start going into 'pee mode' (hard sniff, leg starting to go up, etc.) give a "no" and pressure on leash to get them out of the store.
Nobody is saying break their neck or use a bladed collar, but if a dog is doing something you don't like, there has to be a way to communicate "this is not the proper behavior".
If I'm walking by another dog that's barking, my dog's eyes drift, I use my "eyes" command (which I use to tell the dog to look at me), and I treat it. That's "positive only". But if he doesn't drop enemy-dog-focus, I give a VERY SMALL leash pop (more of a gentle steer) and do a "tsk, tsk" (and don't treat). I know that advice would get deleted. I just don't understand how you communicate corrective behavior with true positive only short of spending weeks upon weeks doing desensitizing training.
Aw I'm sorry they got you feeling this way. They are...very militant in some of the other dog subs. Don't take it to heart. If it makes you feel better, I had a similar experience in one of those subs. Someone had asked me for potty training tips after I had commented about how surprisingly easy it was to train my boy, and my response to them got deleted for "recommending or describing methods involving the application of fear, force, pain or emotional or physical discomfort". This was the comment the mods deleted:
>Sure! So the first month I think I took him out about every 30-60 minutes. Anytime he peed or pooped outside, I would give him tons of praise and treats.
>When he had accidents in the house, I never yelled/scolded/punished or anything like that. If I happened to catch him in the middle of it, I would just clap my hands gently to get his attention, then pick him up and take him outside to finish, and of course give praise/treats.
>I do think it helped a lot that my puppy tends to be really fastidious and does not like to be dirty so even though we did not crate train him (crate training can help a lot with potty training) I think he generally just preferred to go potty outside rather than in the house. Some dogs do take longer to potty train so don't be discouraged if yours doesn't get it right away. Consistency is the most important thing!
The "gentle clap" is what they deleted it for lol
These people are crazy cultists. What would you tell a parent that was raising their child never telling them no? You would tell them that that child wouldn't be able to exist in our society and would be horrible to peers and have bad relationships? I would because it's true. Same for dogs. We all need boundaries and clear communication to feel at peace
Maybe people should quit listening to Internet "experts". Take a look at how the mother of ANY animal "corrects" bad behavior. But I'm sure there are people that will say the animals mother is wrong for negative actions
I followed the advice not to say "no" to my dog when he was a puppy (rescue). Honestly he was so anxious that it's a good thing I didn't use a sharp tone back then.
Now that he's a lot more confident, I have a word that means no and it works great for communication. I think it helps that it's a different word because it's easy to accidentally inject anger instead of firmness into the word "no". I only use it for bad behavior, not wrong behavior. Like, if we're training and he guesses wrong, I don't use my no word because it would discourage him from trying something else.
The whole thing is probably a non-issue for dogs less anxious and sensitive than mine.
Do you think cavemans trained dogs without ever saying no?
We have been training dogs for, at the very least, 20.000 years. To think we did everything wrong for 19990 of those years is kind of... Stupid isnt it? Especially since theres video evidence of perfectly trained dogs from before this positive only nonsense came out.
I had the same epiphany. I have a great trainer that is positive reenforcment only. We have worked well together with my dog. BUT, when I finally actually got firm with my dog about barking at my nextdoor neighbors dog, is when the behavior changed. I think balanced training is important. Don't have to go all "Cesar Milan" but sometimes firm directions and expectations are needed. Understanding your dog and not following blanket rules is a must.
You can't take "never say No/give your dog negative feedback" people or subs seriously. It doesn't work in the real world, and they just become angry, frustrated people who take it out on other humans bc they pretend that's morally superior to correcting errors the dog makes. I feel bad for newer dog owners who are introduced to this toxic new culture. Trust your gut, do what works...and No, giving negative feedback to your dog does not in any way harm your bond. Neither do appropriate corrections, structure, solid leadership, prong collars, or any of the other stuff newer "trainers" want to vilify. It would be laughable, if it weren't so harmful to dogs, and newer owners.
These people act like dogs are so fragile. Corrections are a necessity. There is such a thing as over correcting, of course, but never correcting your dog for anything is a recipe for disaster, especially for more dominant breeds.
The same crowd also swears that dogs can’t be dominant. That Dominance isn’t a thing
Yeah, that’s so frustrating. They confuse alpha theory with dominance theory and think that because the former was disproven that means the latter was as well. I have to wonder if they’ve ever seen dogs interact with each other. Dominance absolutely exists in dogs.
I've even read people saying that dogs aren't pack animals, like, what? They absolutley are pack animals, if you let them in the wild for some time they will go and find other dogs and form packs, I've seen packs of stray dogs
Absolutely. I’ve seen the pack mentality in groups of dogs before. It’s foolish to believe it doesn’t exist. I’ve never seen anyone suggest that dogs aren’t pack animals, but I did read a post once where someone said that dogs don’t have prey drives. Some people are just delusional.
Have they looked at dog's teeth? I don't think that they're made to chew on plants. >Absolutely. I’ve seen the pack mentality in groups of dogs before. My own dog has gone into pack mentality before, he is extremley influenced by other dogs' behaviour if he knows that dog (if they're calm he's calm, if they're alert he's alert). And he doesn't live with them! They just walk together several times a week. This thinking of "They aren't pack animals" is very popular in reactive dogs forums, while even (most) reactive dogs can be part of a pack and would happily join one because is a basic neccesity, they've evolved for millions of yeara to live in packs, how could 10 k years of domestication change that?
You’d have to be out of your mind to think dominance doesn’t exist in dogs. That’s why you’ll never see the positive only trainers work with real dogs or if they do the solutions fall short and is not consistent at all.
The thing is if you go to the source and read the studies, they arent at all claiming that dominance between adult dogs/wolves doesnt exist. Only that it doesnt exist as strongly in packs formed of a breeding pair and their pups which is understandable. There was still dominant and submissive behaviours. However packs formed of adult indeviduals are a completely different situation and absolutely do have a stronger hierarchy which is needed to keep a pack functioning. Fundamentally all the researchers are saying is that the ball busting alpha model of the 80s/90s isnt accurate. The study also took place when the wolves were in their smaller parent pups packs, not when those smaller packs come together to hunt larger prey. In which case you can have more adults joining together. And researchers in yellowstone ect have found wolves with their throats torn out when these disagreements esculate. They have literally taken one study and not only run with it but also cherry picked it to enforce what they want to find, which is ultimately bad scientific practice. Also dogs are far more neotenic than wolves which is a common by product of domestication.
The only way I got my parents mini shepherd to stop nipping (to the point he drew blood from multiple people) was to physically pin him by his scruff and use my meanest ‘bad dog’ voice on him. I didn’t let him up until he tucked his tail and wagged it and gave me a submissive ‘smile’. It’s not a method I would *ever* recommend, it could have backfired horrible, it was just a last straw reaction when he nearly snapped my tendon with his teeth. But! Guess who doesn’t bite anymore! Plus, he’s always very happy to see me when I go over, so there’s no hard feelings. The point is, like you said sometimes it’s just necessary to get firm with your dogs. If they never learn to behave, they’ll only get themselves hurt.
I tried it their way, I really did. It got us precisely nowhere. I love my dog. I have the utmost patience for his training journey. He makes a ton of mistakes, but I don'r care, and am never angry with him, because I see him getting better and trying. We brush it off and try again, with lots of cuddles in between. But I was just seeing zero progress with lots of problematic behaviour. He essentially made my partner's life a living hell. Thank you for taking the time to write this.
My comment was removed for "misinformation" when I said it was important my dog learned "NO" to avoid dangerous situations. I guess I should just let him run in front of a car or fall off a cliff just so I can avoid any negativity.
This is what the positive only community seems to want. Or they want to spend 20 minutes figuring out what operant conditioning quadrant the technique is first before trying it which effectively communicates they are strictly adherent to a dogma and not effective training.
They’ll also say that dogs don’t understand “no” and it doesn’t make any sense to them. Maybe their dogs are just thick as mud because my dog learned what “no” meant very quickly.
I don't understand that logic at all. Somehow a dog can learn what sit/down/heel/yes/good/etc mean just fine but the word "no" is totally different for some magical reason.
So they may not be explaining it well but it does have logic. 1st, are you using No as a command/cue or a marker word? 2nd, if marker word, then a dog can absolutely understand that it's a no reward or negative marker. I use "uh oh", bc it keeps me from getting frustrated, whereas I find the word no repeated too many times wears down the handler's mood. I explain this to my clients as well. They can use No, but is it ramping up their own frustration? If No is a command or cue, then what does it mean? Because a word can only mean one thing. That's why we suggest saying OFF for jumping off things like a table or sofa or bed and DOWN for laying down. So if No is a command/cue, then what is it asking the dog to do? It's much easier to teach a dog to do something than not do something. And not doing "something" is too general. A command to not do something would need to be specific to that thing. Don't eat the food on the floor wouldn't be the same as don't get on the sofa. But typically what I see is that people use No to mean a stop/freeze/stay behavior. This can be used as one command for one behavior and generalized to many situations. So the logic behind not using "no" is that most often with uneducated owners, the word doesn't mean anything or it means everything. In dog training, 1 word = 1 behavior. But technically, yes, you can turn it into an effective no reward marker or an actual cue. Just do the work beforehand to decide what it is you want your dog to do when you say "no" so that you can create clarity. I hope that helps you understand the logic. It sounds like you've thought clearly about what kind of cue you want, and it's working.
I can understand that if someone is trying to use it as a command. I use it as a marker, basically it means whatever my dog is doing when she hears it is incorrect if that makes sense. But for sure uneducated owners could confuse the hell out of their dog with it if not used properly.
the whole dog not understanding no schpiel is derived from the same cherry picking of studies that they use to validate the rest of their ideology. they belief that no doesn't work, it's because it isn't a command to do something, it's a command to do the opposite of something, so they think the dog can't possibly get it. We use "ahah" with our boys, but you could use "gimminy willickers batman" if delivered in the right tone to indicate you don't want the dog to do something they are doing or going to do. We always (try) to follow "ahah" up with a clear command that they do know, such as place or sit or whatever. Because we have noticed that sometimes when we say "ahah" and they stop doing what they are doing, they get a bit confused as to what they are supposed to do next. The follow up command to indicate what we'd like them to do instead has been massively helpful for us.
So did mine and what ah-ha means. And he isnt a repressed, trembling little waif either. He knows he isnt allowed on the bed. Whered i find him yesterday, on the bed snoring with his tongue out, head on the pillow. If he is so scared of being verbally corrected, why would he risk it for a nap on a satan pillowcase huh?
I mean this in good faith: what does the cue "no" mean for you? What behavior is the command asking for?
Yeah. Positive only got us nowhere as well. It’s so unfortunate that that’s what’s being sold to new owners and anything else is abusive. Like … pray tell how that actually makes any sense once you understand how dogs think. I’ll wait.
> I tried it their way, I really did. It got us precisely nowhere. When my young dog was very young, we drove up to a dock diving event one weekend. At the end of the day, I opened her crate door in my car, and told her to hop up. She backed up and said nope, not getting in, wanna dive again. I told her again, same result. So I picked her up, and tossed her into the crate. Told her she was a good girl, and hauled her out and put her back on the ground. Told her hop up again. Same result, except now she really wanted to bite me. :) Picked her up again, and tossed her in. Told her she was a good dog, and hauled her out again. Told her hop up, and this time she said, OH SHIT, and hopped in. She got a ton of cookies, I closed the crate door, and we drove home. And that was the last time she was a turd about getting into the car. What didn't I do? Use cookies to lure her in, cajole her with baby talk. She knew what I was asking, she knew her job and she was not doing it. So yes, she was corrected by me taking her options away and tossing her into the crate. She was given the option to be correct at the start and she wasn't. That was fine, but we were not going to stand there all night while she made up her mind. As the one with thumbs, I get to call the shots.
I can't deal with those people. Every time I see a post for help about an older dog being bad I know its someone who prescribed to that crap. You have to tell your dog no, just like children. It is not damaging to be told you can't do what you want. It IS damaging to never tell them no. It is bad training to never discipline your dog, but you can't tell them that. Even as their 1 yr old giant breed is biting people. Discipline doesn't equal abusing, screaming or hitting your dog. But you can't reason with unreasonable.
People from that sub graduate to r/parenting with the exact same mindset... Go to that sub for a live view of civilization in decline lol
People seem to confuse firmness with abuse. Of course, some people confuse abuse with firmness. At some point, you have to make a judgement call.
The type of parents who believe you should ask the baby for consent before changing the nappy.
Thank you so much for typing this out it's actually so validating
It’s like the “free range” parent syndrome.
I'm training to become a trainer, and at two different locations where I've observed group classes, the (R+, certified CPDT) trainers have taught some sort of mistake marker to dog owners, for example "ah, ah". It's never in a stern or emotional tone, and usually the dog quickly goes back to the "right" behavior (for example if they break a sit/stay they go back into position). It's not the same thing as scolding or yelling at a dog and it's frustrating to see it equated that way.
That's comforting to read. I guess, as with all things, the devil is in the detail. How you do it is as important as what you're doing.
This all day long. Tone/action from the handler should match the scenario. I’m not going to yell at my puppy when he gets a little further ahead than I want while I’m doing something in my kitchen. I may raise my voice quite a bit more if I’m walking him outside and he’s not responding to low tone, but I also might not because just yelling more if he’s not listening won’t accomplish anything, and if I do yell because a low tone didn’t work and he listens then i guarantee he won’t be traumatized because there was an overpowering stimulus pulling his attention. Then when he does listen it’s excited and happy words marking/rewarding instantly so he knows he’s not in trouble. Dogs absolutely learn the marker for a mistake just like they learn the marker for doing the right thing. Once they learn both it really helps with training.
Yep non reward marker. I use "oopsie try again". Some sensitive dogs feel crushed by this. I find it communicates better with my young dog as she learns
we have "uh uh" for when he makes a small mistake and "no" for when he is behaving bad/doing soemthing he's now allowed to
I was watching a video by Denise Fenzi the other day about this subject. I agree with it even if it may be a softer stance than most on this sub. She said (paraphrasing here) that there's nothing inherently wrong with telling a dog "no". A lot of people (including her) will say it out of reflex, and you probably won't train yourself out of it. You just have to be mindful of how often you're saying it and in what contexts. Does your dog know the correct action to take? If so, are there any circumstances that may be making the known behavior more challenging? Are you expecting too much out of your dog? If you find yourself saying more "nos" than "yeses" to your dog, it may be a sign that you need to take a step back. You don't want to needlessly frustrate or confuse your dog. Having said that, sometimes they need to know that they made the wrong choice. If I tell my dog to stop begging for my food, and she then jumps up on me that's going to get a "no" from me. If I tell her to leave the gross dead animal and she tries to roll on it, that's getting a "no" as well. If I ask her to sit and she lays down, that won't get a "no", just no treat and I'll repeat the cue. My relationship with my dog won't be damaged by any of these.
I wish I had the video link but even a Caesar Milan video had him teaching the owner to discourage a behavior. The dog did it, and the owner slightly yelled "no". Caesar said "you don't need to yell." They did it again and the owner did a calm, but firm, even toned "no". All good. I think a lot of people confuse a firm "no" with NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
You have observed and feel that your bond with your dog got stronger. Your dog is calmer and happier. Focus on what got better for your dog, ignore people and algorithms that don’t know you, and the before and after for your dog. I got deleted a bunch of times before I left those subs (and as people with a different opinion leave they become more of an echo chamber), because I mentioned that I used prong collar for one of my dogs. My dog is so much happier and calmer to have clear communication. She is not a dog who likes to have choices in certain situations. She got very anxious even to have to choose. Now that she had training on what is appropriate, she is much calmer, and can enjoy sniffing around instead of freaking out. She also knows to look at me to ask for information before making a bad choice that may be dangerous. People (including trainers) with only their own limited experience comment on your situation from their perspective without knowing the dog in front of you (news flash: one method does not fit all). My other dog is a p+ poster child, the second one forced me to learn about and open up to different approaches which kept her at home. Edit: i keep thinking about how the group seems to have gone from “you are a monster if you use a prong” to “you are a monster if you say no”. Others have mentioned, dogs need to know meaning of both yes and no to learn. We would be damaging our relationship by giving only 50% of the information and not helping them live in our world.
I guess that is what frustrates me the most about it all is the one size fits all assumption. The positive only is great in theory, but if it doesn't fit your dog's personality, then somehow it is your fault?
I was on the positive-only subs for awhile. Took me all of 2 months of having my dog to realize it’s insane. That’s not how dogs communicate with us or how they communicate with each other or *how they expect to be communicated with.* A balance of negative reinforcement (a firm “no”) with lots of positive reinforcement is a way more effective way of training a dog imho. The positive only subs are so quick to ban because they’re bitter and overwhelmed that their dogs are unruly and anxious and they just take it out on humans lmao. My dog is so well-behaved for a six month old puppy, and largely that’s just her disposition, but also I haven’t been afraid to use a firm “no” when needed. She also now fully responds to my exasperated sighs when she’s doing something she knows she shouldn’t, before I have to correct or redirect, depending. The sigh is enough. It’s pretty cute.
Mine is rambunctious, very rowdy, pushy and not a particularly willing dog but is the same way. Each month my tone becomes softer and softer and he looks to me now.
Hahaha that's so cute! My dogs seem to understand my varying levels of "no" - my 3yo definitely understands when my tone means "you can carry on what you're doing but chill out a bit" and when I mean "stop that entirely right now" and my 1yo is getting there but he's a terrier so I anticipate that for the next 3-4 years he will not understand any form of no except one at full force - anything else is merely a suggestion to be totally ignored at his discretion 😅 it's like any training aid, you use it less and less as time goes on, and the more you set them up for success the less you have to use it. I very rarely have to tell my cav no any more, generally the most he gets is an "excuuuuuuuse me!" for trying to sneak closer to my food 😂 ETA: can confirm the frustration levels the "don't ever say no" crew have - my mum used to complain I told my old dog "no" too much. She prefers to ignore her current pup's (litter mate of my terrier) behaviour until it's so fucking obnoxious she can't stand it and yells at him. Then she feels bad she's spent all the day feeling cross with him. While I'll tell my two "NO, will you two PACK IT IN", then I spend the rest of my time just enjoying my dogs 🤷🏼♀️ I think most dogs, given the choice, would prefer one clear "no" to tell them what I don't want rather than sensing the building frustration of everyone around them and not understanding the cause but maybe that's just me 🤔
I do positive reinforcement only training and have for years (I don’t judge the use of other tools for certain challenges, I’ve just personally had better results with positive reinforcement with my dogs), but honestly I visit this sub bc it’s gotten a bit crazy over there about certain things even when they are definitely still under the umbrella of positive reinforcement. A calm No is definitely still part of positive reinforcement training and is no different than ah-ah if used correctly. I’m not sure where this misconception got started but it’s crazy how often I see it now. The original argument against No in dog training is that the word No on its own isn’t a command a dog can understand and it’s easy to yell it loudly when frustrated. So just shouting No repeatedly at a misbehaving dog makes them anxious and confused. But something like “Sit. No, Sit” is literally perfectly fine and no different from “Sit. Ah-ah, Sit.”
I'm curious your take on this. You're walking down the street and another dog is coming near. If your dog starts reacting to that dog, how would you handle it? (sincere question, not trying to bait an argument)
First thing I’d attempt is the Focus command, it’s what we use for ‘look at me’. So essentially stop looking at the other dog and make eye contact. Sometimes that’s enough to get disengagement. If having her make eye contact with me isn’t enough to refocus her (like she just goes straight back to trying to boof/moves towards the dog), then I’d try a string like “focus, sit, let’s go” which would be look at me and sit, followed by her command to continue walking, positive marker after each success. If that won’t work, and other dog is rapidly approaching, we’ll give her the “off to the side” command, move her away from the sidewalk and put her in “down/stay” until the dog passes. If both dogs are reacting/potential dangerous situation, I want to immediately get some distance before trying to refocus her. So in that case, I’d break out her command that I know is near 100%, which is her recall (we practice this a lot, at home, outside, with distractions, outside to inside, upstairs to downstairs, in the middle of her eating, etc) so I’d then give the command ‘Lexi, COME.’ which I say while tapping my leg with my hand loud enough for her to hear (it’s our hand motion for her recall command), and then the instant she starts moving towards me, Id immediately guide that momentum while giving the “Cross” command, and just cross the street before she even thinks about engaging again. Once we’re far enough away that it’s no longer potentially dangerous, I can then safely work on getting her fully refocused without having to worry about the situation escalating. Then in the future, if we see the same dog approaching, I would try to get a little distance ahead of time. Once we’re not in close proximity, I’d work on some engage/disengage training with her while specifically watching that dog. To be fair though, we got our current girl at 8 weeks old, so we didn’t have any established behavioral issues to untrain.
But also to address sort of the underlying question here/another topic mentioned in this thread. If there is a situation that is potentially dangerous, and I cannot get my dog to listen and I need her to do something for her own health/safety, I will restrain her. It’s certainly something that would probably be scolded by some of the “never say no” crowd, but I worked at a vet center during college, and if it could potentially save my dog from serious injury or death, I would give the command (so she isn’t startled) and I would put her in either a Down or Sit restraint. I’d then still give her the positive marker and rewards afterwards to encourage her for the future, but if it’s a seriously dangerous situation, I will make sure she’s safe first and foremost.
Absolutely terrible. You should stop immediately and hire a trainer with an alphabet soup of letters after their name (paying money to take a written test from an unregulated certifying organization is the most important qualification when choosing a trainer, don't get fooled by trainers that actually have a track record of getting good results). It may seem like you dog is better now, but actually your dog is the world's best liar and faking everything. One day in the future he may randomly turn on you like Cujo because of the severe psychological damage caused by letting your dog know you don't like something they're doing. Any replies that challenge my personal and very narrow philosophy on training will be censored. My way is the only way and the best way of proving it is by silencing or scaring anyone who disagrees in any way.
OMG. you are so awesome! And morally pure! You are on your way to literally saving the world and all it's creatures. Here's my upvote.
No, giving negative feedback will not emotionally harm your dog. They need to know what is expected of them. Obviously don’t scream at the top of your lungs at them, but a firm “no” is far from abuse. I give my dog corrections when necessary. I’m fair, but firm. She still loves me, she still likes to be around me. She isn’t adverse to me and she certainly isn’t traumatized by it. She’s cuddling with me as I type this. I’ve had a comment or two removed from those positive only subs. I feel like they’re a bit trigger happy about it.
Save yourself some grief in life. Don't try to argue with people who don't use logic. It's a waste of time and does no good. Just move on and focus on more productive things.
>I love my dog with all my heart. The reason for thw deleted post suggested that our bond could be irrepearably harmed and that I could cause life long psychological harm to my puppy. I don't want that. If a dog hearing "no" or, "knock it off" or, whatever was going to harm a dog, millions of us would have broken dogs. A correction gives a dog information, just as a cookie does. A correction doesn't have to be devastating and over the top or harmful. If my dog is about to run out the front door and I tell him, "STOP", that "STOP" won't hurt him. Running out the door may. There is a huge gulf between not giving a dog information via corrections, and, abusing the dog with corrections. People who actually DO follow LIMA are going to look at the least aversive methods to train a dog first but will, if they have to use corrections. I do dog sports: I cant think of anyone who is a force free trainer(sic). People I see skew very, very R+, but if a dog is about to run out of a car crate when it's opened, that won't be solved by waving cookies at the dog. ditto if a trainer dog decides to tow the owner thru the icy parking lot in February.
KNOCK IT OFF. Is one of my favorite things to say, lol.
> KNOCK IT OFF. Is one of my favorite things to say, lol. IKR?? And I don't have to be mean or loud about it, but they know that whatever it is that they're doing, needs to stop, now. dogs really aren't delicate flowers. I don't understand how someone can look at say a Golden Retriever, who has been bred to deal with still alive birds, spurring or pecking them in the face, who can swim thru a stick pond, run thru sticker bushes, and otherwise deal with things in their way and be ok, but somehow words will hurt them. Or a Cattle Dog, bred to deal with cattle that want to kick them in the head, but who still go in and tell the cow what to do...these are tough animals, and giving them boundaries won't hurt them.
I really don't know how this all gets twisted because I'm basically R+. I don't use tools, and I give my dogs boundaries and clarity. I don't know where this myth of positive reinforcement meaning permissive because none of the R+ trainers I know train that way either. All I can gather is that there are bad trainers out there using every technique or methodology and they give us all a bad name.
> I really don't know how this all gets twisted because I'm basically R+ Same. I teach all agility R+. I use a clicker, marker words, toys and cookies. Maybe someone will consider weave wires aversive but seriously they're not... I teach obedience, competitive obedience about 99% positive. About the only time there are actual corrections is if a dog insists on forging, we're gonna dog a lot of slow heeling and left turns. Again, not sure if that's aversive. My dogs don't think so. I think the disconnect and distaste comes from people who call themselves FF trainers. They're training pet dogs, and they're refusing to look at the owner and the dog and use what works, and is fair, and will produce a dog that the owners can live with. So if they get a client who has a just out of rescue or a shelter big powerful dog, with zero manners, they're trying to produce a dog who can walk on a leash, without using a prong collar. Or leash corrections. and while some trainers can do that (I can), they're almost always working with puppies, who are biddable, and who have no existing baggage to fix. So my 8 week old puppies? I can teach them to walk on a leash and not be jerks, pretty quickly. No prong, no corrections. Someone's 8 year old pit-mix, who pulls right thru a collar and tows the human down the street? Teaching that dog to stop that sort of thing can be done in a few sessions with a prong collar, or the rest of that dog's life, with a bag of cookies, that the dog may or may not care about. And those trainers have a deservedly bad rep. The main goal should be keeping that dog in the home they have wound up in, and if that means some corrections to help them understand, oh well. Susan Garrett has long said, positive is not permissive. And that's how baby puppies can learn to behave on a leash, and come when called, without an corrections, just via control of the environment and patience. An older dog, with, a life spent doing whatever, may need more than that. I think that's realistic.
This is what you do. You ask them who their mentor is, their dream dog trainer. Then you research that person and see reality. Watch their videos and read their blogs. Do you want a dog like that trainer and live like that trainer? Chances are no.
Training/teaching dogs is the same thing as training/teaching people. We need feedback about what to do and what not to do.
Oh friend, I'm so sorry you've been made to feel this way. Everything you said about communication is correct. Communicating to your dog that they are doing something bad is a GOOD thing. You want them to recognize that cue in case you need it to stop them from dangerous behavior. It is not fair or safe to never teach a dog the idea of "no" Even if you use R+ methods for everything else, teaching them "ah-ah" or "no" is absolutely vital for your lifelong bond and communication.
Thank you so much. And I am using positive reinforcement for almost everything. This is challenging, cos he's not food driven, nearly at all! So I have had to turn every command and cue into its own game( which he is much more responsive to). I've not found a great deal out there on this kind of training, so there has been a lot of creative problem solving. I've put so much of myself into this, employed so much trial and error, and worked so hard on it that I struggle when people even hint that I don't care/ abuse my pupper. I guess that's a me problem, but still. Right now, he is my whole life.
> his is challenging, cos he's not food driven Use life rewards :-) To get what he wants (walk, attention, toy, dinner, pass thru a gate, etc) he does something for you. I work with independent primitive breeds and rarely use food.
Not bad at all! The results speak for themselves. I train almost exclusively with positive reinforcement, but even my own dog - a highly reactive working shepherd - knows that when I say "ah" he is to stop WHATEVER it is he is doing. Because I can install/train any behavior I want, but there are still times he makes his own decisions in unique situations, and sometimes that decision is not the one I want. He has never been hit, shocked, or any silly disproven techniques like a dominance roll. I taught him no means no the same way I taught him everything else he knows.
'ah-ah' to me is a Negative Bridge Word, 'NO' is a Verbal Correction, I use wrong but in a very monotone and mid volume way. 'good' is my Positive Bridge Word and 'YES' is my makrer word. Yes is my excited reward aka come get food hype Good is my calm reward aka keep doing this behaviour and earn a reward. Tbh I much prefer using my attention as the reward. If my dog does something I don't like, don't want to reward or are completely over activated/fustrated, I will physically turn my face low and to the side move my hands behind my back and completely stop moving. The second the dog is stationary for a second I give the attention back and start fresh. I don't think using a verbal correction is going to 'ruin' a bond but I think OVER using could. If 90% of what you are saying to the dog is NO then the dog could start simply thinking any time you are around he will get yelled at.
Ya know, I tried the passive corrections a lot at first. Ignoring him, turning away, even getting up and walking away from him when he was on a demon streak. None of it made a dent. If anything, it heightened his arousal, made him almost desperate. Demand barking would often follow. I really like how you delineate ah ah, good and yes. I look forward to incorporating it into my boys training.
My ACD is high for my attention and has a really low fustration level. If he doesn't get what I'm asking first or second try he gets extremely upset. He will start rapid firing positions and even get nippy. He definitely NEEDED a more clear 'NOT THAT RELAX' command lol. Now I have been conditioning that command into an action! Which has been going extremely well. Every time I had to use the command, I use "WRONG" in a deep, normal volume voice. Once he layed down and settled. I would say 'good' and then 'place'. Wait for calm n place and then reward. So it's now been turning into him realizing he is fustrated and choosing to go to the place cot tell me he needs to reset. It's wild seeing him learn how to communicate with me better!
This is really heartening and something I will definitely try!
People get very upset over the use of corrective terms. I don’t use them when I train but it’s mostly because I find that there are better ways to communicate them to tell them something is incorrect. Instead of telling them No because you don’t like what they’re doing, ask them to do the skill they know to do instead. Then mark and reward the correct skill. So much of it is really just that we can communicate more effectively by communicating what we want instead of what we don’t. When we communicate that what they’re doing is incorrect it does not give them information as to what they could do instead, only that the behavior they chose is incorrect. It doesn’t mean you’ve permanently damaged your relationship. And I wish people would take more time to explain why we choose not to use it instead of just telling people they’re wrong and terrible.
I use a firm NO! With my very intelligent but persistent 2 year old lab.
I advise avoiding those subs. They're not interested in an outcome that's best for the dog, they just want to feel superior to everyone else, regardless of the dog.
The vast majority of positive only dog trainers are useless, these people can’t have their dogs in public off leash around distractions, don’t bother with them.
Nothing really to add that others haven’t; just a hearty congratulations to you and your dog for escaping the cult. Train your dog in whatever way works best for you both. If you’re not comfortable with physical corrections that’s absolutely fine, to each their own, but no dog has ever needed a psych evaluation because of a fair verbal correction. These people are out of their damn minds.
Thank you!
No. It’s a complete sentence. It is appropriate for snarky teens, young pups learning their boundaries and uptight “precious” trainers wannabes who honestly believe that saying “no” is toxic. Without “no” then what is “YESS!!”? You sound like you sorted thru the bs and found a reasonable approach, and the 2 of you doing perfectly well, congrats OP! Sometimes (many times) the normal way is perfectly appropriate.
Watch a bitch correct her puppies. Watch perfectly happy dogs correct each other playing together. Watch them be completely happy looking like wolves that are going to eat each other's face off while they're playing and sleeping next to each other five minutes later. My rule of thumb with any animal is that correction at a level they understand is a useful tool, if you use it right. Horses freaking kick each other. That's a damn 500 pound piston with brass knuckles permanently attached that they use to communicate with you when they're uncomfortable, that's how they're talking. So when I need to talk back, it isn't baby talk and pets on the forehead, it's a level of pressure that a horse understands and reacts to. That isn't abuse, it's communication. With a dog, they can play hard. They use teeth and paws to do it. That's a lot of why prong and ecollars work, because they're mimicing the way dogs correct each other (sharp, quick jabs to their neck). But you have to use them properly. Again, dogs that are generally friendly and just correcting each other will be sharp, quick, and done. It's just a 'no, that's too much' reaction, then off you go. A lot of people get into this train of only positive and never correcting your dog because they never see it done well, or can't do it well themselves. If you're in a bad headspace, you can't manage a dog whose in a bad spot. If you're inexperienced, what is actually nothing might sound like a fight, and what's about to be a fight might be completely silent and you have no idea what's about to happen until it's a whirlwind tornado of dog. Most owners mash through the middle, somehow. We get there, and we have good pets. But I don't think positive only is a hard and fast thing. Think about your own children: I would absolutely punish them for attempting to disobey my order not to touch a stove or run into a highway or run in front of a lawn mower or knock down a beehive. Some mistakes you just don't get to make without serious consequences, and some mistakes you just don't get to make at all. I will do anything in my power to keep you from making them, whether that means you need cool down in your crate or a strong correction/reprimand, etc. I would prefer a reticent dog that I have to work hard to build back up vs a smear on pavement as roadkill. Sometimes you have to correct. 🤷
Yeah the positive only people are living in a dream world. No was one the first words Kora learned, she heard it a lot lol. For her No is just another command, nothing negative about it. She's also e-collar trained because when you've got a hound on a scent their ears turn off. No amount of calling is going to get through hound brain. It's amazing how a quick little buzz with the e-collar (at the appropriate level of course) can turn her ears back on.
The buzzes dont even hurt, thats what i cant get my head around. Ive tried one, and they aint painful.
Unless you dial it all the way up it's more of a weird tingle. Kora's working level is higher then I'd like to feel on me but for her it's barely an annoyance. I think that the problem is that people think it's the same strength as an electric fence you'd use for livestock.
That's really weird. Even my positive training groups use "No-reward" marks to let dogs know that's not what was wanted. It clears up frustration in the dog, especially if you're using a clicker to shape new behavior, and the dog is aware they need to try new things to earn a click. Imagine how frustrating it is to be balancing on a ball or something and not know if you're supposed to wait for longer, stick a foot in the air, or you're entirely 'barking up the wrong tree.' A no reward mark lets them stop waving their legs around and try something else.
Giving feedback isn’t *negative*. The word “no” is a negating word but it doesn’t have to be received as negative emotionally. “Ah ah” and “no” are not punishments, unless you make them punishments. Punishing a dog doesn’t do any good. Guiding them does. Only saying “no” won’t teach the dog good behavior but withholding feedback until the dog does it right also won’t teach the dog good behavior.
Honestly, the monsters are the people that are anything but positive with other humans. I use a no all the time. Delivered unemotionally in the middle of a training session my dogs know it means “that’s the wrong answer, you need to try something different”. If they aren’t going in the right direction, I make things easier. It’s like playing a game of hot and cold, which would you prefer, the game where I say “hot” and “cold” or the version where I don’t say anything until you stumble on the solution, then I say “hot”.
Why do you feel like a monster? IMHO/FWIW, the positive only community are a bunch of fear mongers that act like anything that isn’t treats/rewards equates to abuse. The only letters they don’t put in their profiles/credentials are psa level x or schutzhunde whatever (or whatever those are called now) because they can’t get a dog to that level. I realize that’s overkill for what most people need/want from a trainer, but I want a trainer that has at least worked with someone that has done this shit “for real” or has done it themself. There is such a difference between using tools correctly, and I mean tools in the sense of approaches/techniques, and abusing a dog. I have yet to see someone show me multiple videos of a positive only trainer that has done legit behavior modification, and I say multiple videos because I want to see that they’ve done it for more than one dog. “Ah-ah” and being against “no”? How delusional can they get? Seriously. My 12 week old puppy knows “no” and he hasn’t had a prong or anything like that on him…. One of the things that really helped me become a better handler was actually a scene from Yellowstone. It’s the scene where Travis is taking the one guy from Yellowstone to the 6666 ranch. Travis says something to the effect of “it’s you and a horse just trying to do a job.” When I heard that everything just clicked for me on handling/training. What am I trying to get my dog to do and how can I communicate effectively with them to facilitate that. Depending on what I’m trying to accomplish that will be different. It can be a correction with a prong (not this dog), using objects to help them learn correct body position (like putting something in front of them and walking sideways around it so they get where to stay for “heal/füss”), treats with luring to get them to learn the movement, etc…. Just like you said clear communication is key! The dog has to understand what you are trying to accomplish. I don’t speak dog, so I have to use a bag of tricks (metaphorically here) to communicate to my dog what to do.
Glad you found what works. Enjoy your new doggie life.
Use as much positive reinforcment as possible but telling a dog no is not going to mess them up and ruin your bond. Some people have borderline religious fanatic mentalities when talking about dog training. Dont ever tell them no or set boundries, every problem can be solved with love and cookies. Trouble is in the real world that often falls apart as soon as competing motivators enter the picture. Even when presented with evidence to the contrary they do some metal gymnastics to explain why anything but force free is wrong and abusive hanging onto their dogma like a flat earther at a science convention. Then they see a dog trained to understand some things just aren't acceptable living a happy life following your expectations and boundries. Rather than admit there might be some limitations on their methods they bash the owner for not doing things the same way as them.
I was gobsmacked when I took my large breed puppy to puppy preschool & the trainer said to never use the word “No”. How ridiculous! I’ve had dogs all my life & this was the first time I’d come across that (well since I’d had kids and came across the gentle parenting movement - which is equally as ridiculous IMO). I was even less than impressed when she criticised my use of a martingale & went on to advise the class to run a mile from “balanced” trainers - apparently they are evil. 🙄 You aren’t a monster, you are just setting boundaries.
I got banned from a ‘positive only’ sub because someone was seeking advice on what to do with their aggressive husky that has attacked him and his other dog. I said seek out a balanced trainer as the positive only methods weren’t working anymore and instant ban.
It sounds like you are gentle, clear, and firm- which is exactly what dogs need! You aren’t going to harm your dog by showing him boundaries respectfully- it will probably strengthen as you’ve already noticed.
I thought the same thing for a long time. When I started regularly working with a professional with a higher skill level than mine, she pointed out that what I thought was happiness was just appeasement. And the reason the “no” worked was because she’s INCREDIBLY sensitive. Since I’ve stopped using it and also gone all the way back to basics and just focused on games, I’ve seen her excitement to learn and work with me return. Turns out, she’s the first dog I’ve ever had who finds play to be more rewarding than food. It also didn’t help that I’d over-relied on food to get through stressful situations that I’d just kind of thrown her into. So the “reinforcement” was all coerced and not very reinforcing at all. Not saying this is your situation but something to consider.
I mean, if someone is using no like a punishment or being very jarring with it, that I don't agree with, and I'll exempt that situation from my take. But this was my original break from some of the more extreme R+ groups. They seem culty and run pretty parallel in input and advice to the R+ equestrian groups, with someone referencing the former as the "parelli of dog training", iykyk lmao. I bring it up because I know horses a lot better, worked various positions in the industry for over a decade as well as competed, etc. And the management and training strategies being advocated by, not all R+, but the extreme end of the spectrum groups specifically, aren't theoretically sound whatsoever. Like, they just do not make sense behaviorally with how horses interact socially. After all, why would I trust someone who claims to be against all negative feedback for all living things, but chooses to spread this message by tiradeing against humans who are not engaging in abuse or widely established unacceptable behavior, and also meant no harm, and are also living things? If you can't keep to your own philosophy, you can't keep to your own philosophy.
Damn… I didn’t know that it went as far as not using a verbal no. I definitely use the ehh and no less often. No is like the serious stuff, ehh is like think and redirect buddy. No is completely fine as long as it’s used properly.
Those people have bought into a mindset that’s frankly ridiculous and when you challenge or attempt to negate their bias in any way they have a conniption. They can’t admit it’s awful because then they’d be wrong. These people are not smart or serious. There’s a shit ton of them across various subs here and mods here have a rule that you can’t disparage other dog subs or they also have a fit. Some of the puppy groups are the wrist and seems like their mods are 13 yr old PETA kids. Do you think wild dogs only use positive reinforcement? Dogs use verbal AND physical discipline all the time with each other from nose to tail and they match their energy to the seriousness of the correction. I’m not a professional trainer but I’ve owned and self-trained large working and guardian breeds my whole long life- all of them have been highly obedient, properly behaved in public; just not a problem for anyone except someone with bad intentions. Balanced is best with MOSTLY positive. Applies to people, too. Imagine only getting positive feedback at your job when actually you were failing miserably and then one day inexplicably you’re fired. You wouldn’t guide your children through the world that way either. Try positive only with a Cane Corso. BWAHAHAHAHAHA. I mean sure it may have decent results with idk maybe a Havanese or a King Charles but I wouldn’t attempt it with a Chihuahua or a Shiba or a Golden.
As a member of the positive community, I feel badly that they made you feel like a monster. You did what seemed least harmful with the skill set you had! Punishment is in the eye of the one receiving the feedback. The impact of the punishment may be improvement to the behavior, or a slightly more submissive dog. I doubt you destroyed the bond between you and your pet. To help you along with your training journey, I often recommend the following: Ensure you’re using a reward marker to inform the dog what is correct. If you find, after 5 repetitions that your dog is getting it “right” only 2 (or less ) out of 5, consider: Are asking too much, is your timing is off, is the environment in which your training is too exciting or scary, or is the reward too low of value? Lastly, try to make the correct answer VERY obvious to the dog. Ex: If you’re teaching a nose - hand target, you need to present your hand VERY close to the dog’s nose rather than feet away. You can further it by rubbing food on your hand to entice the dog, or use a lure to make it more literal.
Yeah, so I was over on Puppy101 and it's a joke, sorry (not sorry). There was a thread about having your dog in Petsmart and how to prevent them from peeing. My post got deleted where I basically said, "if they start going into 'pee mode' (hard sniff, leg starting to go up, etc.) give a "no" and pressure on leash to get them out of the store. Nobody is saying break their neck or use a bladed collar, but if a dog is doing something you don't like, there has to be a way to communicate "this is not the proper behavior". If I'm walking by another dog that's barking, my dog's eyes drift, I use my "eyes" command (which I use to tell the dog to look at me), and I treat it. That's "positive only". But if he doesn't drop enemy-dog-focus, I give a VERY SMALL leash pop (more of a gentle steer) and do a "tsk, tsk" (and don't treat). I know that advice would get deleted. I just don't understand how you communicate corrective behavior with true positive only short of spending weeks upon weeks doing desensitizing training.
Aw I'm sorry they got you feeling this way. They are...very militant in some of the other dog subs. Don't take it to heart. If it makes you feel better, I had a similar experience in one of those subs. Someone had asked me for potty training tips after I had commented about how surprisingly easy it was to train my boy, and my response to them got deleted for "recommending or describing methods involving the application of fear, force, pain or emotional or physical discomfort". This was the comment the mods deleted: >Sure! So the first month I think I took him out about every 30-60 minutes. Anytime he peed or pooped outside, I would give him tons of praise and treats. >When he had accidents in the house, I never yelled/scolded/punished or anything like that. If I happened to catch him in the middle of it, I would just clap my hands gently to get his attention, then pick him up and take him outside to finish, and of course give praise/treats. >I do think it helped a lot that my puppy tends to be really fastidious and does not like to be dirty so even though we did not crate train him (crate training can help a lot with potty training) I think he generally just preferred to go potty outside rather than in the house. Some dogs do take longer to potty train so don't be discouraged if yours doesn't get it right away. Consistency is the most important thing! The "gentle clap" is what they deleted it for lol
These people are crazy cultists. What would you tell a parent that was raising their child never telling them no? You would tell them that that child wouldn't be able to exist in our society and would be horrible to peers and have bad relationships? I would because it's true. Same for dogs. We all need boundaries and clear communication to feel at peace
Positive only training? This does not work in the real world.
Maybe people should quit listening to Internet "experts". Take a look at how the mother of ANY animal "corrects" bad behavior. But I'm sure there are people that will say the animals mother is wrong for negative actions
I followed the advice not to say "no" to my dog when he was a puppy (rescue). Honestly he was so anxious that it's a good thing I didn't use a sharp tone back then. Now that he's a lot more confident, I have a word that means no and it works great for communication. I think it helps that it's a different word because it's easy to accidentally inject anger instead of firmness into the word "no". I only use it for bad behavior, not wrong behavior. Like, if we're training and he guesses wrong, I don't use my no word because it would discourage him from trying something else. The whole thing is probably a non-issue for dogs less anxious and sensitive than mine.
Corrections are good and needed And those people wonder why their dogs behave like shit meanwhile mine is perfectly behaved
Do you think cavemans trained dogs without ever saying no? We have been training dogs for, at the very least, 20.000 years. To think we did everything wrong for 19990 of those years is kind of... Stupid isnt it? Especially since theres video evidence of perfectly trained dogs from before this positive only nonsense came out.
I think being absolute in one method or point of view is counterproductive. some approaches work better for some dogs at different times.
I had the same epiphany. I have a great trainer that is positive reenforcment only. We have worked well together with my dog. BUT, when I finally actually got firm with my dog about barking at my nextdoor neighbors dog, is when the behavior changed. I think balanced training is important. Don't have to go all "Cesar Milan" but sometimes firm directions and expectations are needed. Understanding your dog and not following blanket rules is a must.