I mean… I think they’re setting a foursome relationship type situation, but the issue is that we got all of this build up romantically for the two of them in season one and some build up with Oluwande and his love interest in season two, but virtually nothing about Jim’s new love interest. She just kind of appeared on the ship. We don’t know anything about her except for that she was randomly in a snake cult, which is like funny, but also… Why should I care?
And there’s really not any chemistry between, the four of them as a unit. I think they only have at most one or two scenes together, so why should I buy it? Why should I buy that Oluwande and Jim would just leave Stede like that?
It makes me sad for Stede and for the rest of the crew. They were really coming together as a family…
I find Zheng a more interesting, developed, and compelling character, but I feel like the bond between Jim and Archie feels more developed than Olu and Zheng. We see Archie and Jim connecting. a little build up to their kiss, and some stuff building off the kiss. But Zheng it just feels like we’re told she likes Olu and then after she confesses, we’re told Olu likes her back. But I don’t feel like there was as much buildup to it except maybe the light flirting when she was soup girl.
Also... what does she like about him? We know he's awesome, but other than him being a qt, why would she be interested in him? He's right that she conquered China and he apparently can't learn to say China, what does she have in common with him? We don't see anything that they would potentially be building a relationship out of, just that he's "the break in her day". We don't see anything that looks like they would have a partnership.
I get the sense that she likes his simplicity. Olu is smart, but he’s not worldly (hence being unable to remember how to say “China”). She’s commanded an entire army of pirates, and now she’s assembled a second. She’s clearly brilliant and powerful and adventurous, and I think part of her wants to settle in and be a homebody sometimes. Olu is sweet and funny, and I can see how he’d be a good partner for her (or anyone. I’m a little in love with him).
I agree I don’t feel the chemistry with them as much, but from a logical standpoint I can see how he would help her to tap into a lost part of herself.
I don't feel any chemistry between Olu and Zheng, which makes their relationship very unbelievable to me. I can at least sense the attraction between Jim and Archie.
Same here! I actually made a thread about how in episode 2 olu was actually like...stupid?? Like dumb bimboesqe (with the scroll thing/not being able to pronounce china etc) and I honestly thought he found something out and was trying to protect the crew/stede. Like he was hushing stede when he was I'm the room w the 2 of them. So I assumed him kissing zheng was to like save their asses or something bc it felt so lifeless. So I was truly shocked when Jim mentioned how olu was constantly talking abt zheng (which we literally saw 0 of this happening :/) and their romance actually played out.
That's what I thought too! That Olu was only playing along with Zheng to save the crew.
Honestly, The Swede's relationship with Spanish Jackie felt more developed
That’s my biggest issue also. I haven’t really felt anything for Archie. Just a rowdy crew member. I don’t hate the character, but I just feel very neutral.
Yeah, I feel the exact same way. It’s not that I hate her. I even think I could like her a hell of a lot, if they gave her more to do! I want to like her! I really do!
I do love her kiwi style humor. Like when Jim is asking what to use to cut Izzy’s leg and Archie thinks she’s asking which leg they should cut. Little quips like that make me think of short poppies, a show everyone who hasn’t seen should go watch immediately.
Yeah her whole personality is just rowdy party girl and I’m not attached to her like I am to everyone else. Zheng and Auntie are by far better season two additions who I hope stick around and I’m even hella mad at Zheng right now for how rude she was being to Stede! Calling another pirate a serial killer is pretty rich
I was excited to see her because I just watched her in Deadloch and she is so funny. While my partner and I were watching he said “I feel like she would work well with Taika Waititi” then we looked it up and saw that they are friends and have worked together.
Well said and 100% agreed. Stede risked it all to save them. He waited to go see Ed who he thought was dead to make sure his crew was safe. Also. Zheng was literally about to kill jim/archie bc the mutiny. So are we just gonna ignore that?? Why couldn't she have ignored that before?? Bc it wasn't convenient to the story?? Idk again seems like lazy writing to me.
To be fair, Zheng hadn't decided to kill them. It was Auntie who wanted to kill the Kraken crew right off the hop. Zheng was ready to give them leniency when it was just "mutiny adjacent", and even when she found out that it was mutiny, she didn't explicitly say she was going to kill them. Yes, it could have been just a ploy to get Olu on her side, and she could have been intending to kill them regardless. But, outwardly, it didn't seem like her mind was made up, yet.
The way I think about it is the people Jim and Olu were in S1 is not who they are now. They went through so much and still love each other but perhaps it's different type of love now.
I wish we got more overall development (give them a decent budget HBO or so help me god ) for Jim and Archie and Olu and Zheng.
I feel like they're almost setting up a poly relationship with Olu and Jim, especially with the way Olu still has such love for Jim and Zheng. It also comes across more as trauma bonding for Jim and Archie than a truly romantic relationship (at least from my POV) which makes sense considering the amount of time they sailed with The Kraken, where as Olu and Zheng offer a balance to each other and have more of a fun romantic relationship. Olu and Zheng literally have the coffee (soup?) Shop romance plot.
I wish they would have done more with Olu and Jim and their dynamic but I think their dynamic is part of it. They fit together like puzzle pieces no matter what they need from each other from friends to more which is why I'm thinking there's going to be a poly angle going on soon, but it's also why I would be ok if they didn't. Jim and Olu love each other in such a way that it seems transformative depending on their lives at the time.
The way I see this season is the crew went through hella trauma and is just trying to cope and move on and be better.
That's my two cents :)
Trauma bonding is going through a traumatic situation together and then forming a bond. So Archie and Jim went through the trauma of Blackbeard as captain together, and formed a bond over it
That absolutely is not what trauma bonding is. The other poster is correct, trauma bonding is when someone develops a deep attachment to their abuser.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/trauma-bonding/
Is there not a more specific term for say, a couple surviving a horrific car accident and then getting married the next day? Or you’d just say their shared trauma caused them to latch onto each other
You can find reputable sources that describe both types of trauma bonding (i.e., the bond between abuser and abused, and the bond between victims of similar trauma). Of course, it depends on who you ask as to which is the "accurate" term.
I have some thoughts (I mostly disagree).
My BTS theory - Vico Ortiz and Samson Kayo are both up & coming young actors. Maybe they felt it would showcase their range better if they had something different to do this season. Lead to more future jobs. They are both extremely attractive people, but neither of them have typical Hollywood looks. There are also not that many nonbinary actors out there, though I know of a few others. It makes sense to put Olu and Jim into different situations this season and let more of their abilities shine.
Also, there are all sorts of relationships, and I like that the show has one like Olu/Jim. "My best friend that I dated (or was married to) and am still very close to, and they may always be the most important person in my life, but we're not dating anymore" is a very common relationship category, especially for lgbtq+ people. Also, they might all be polyamorous (I don't actually think so, but I did before episodes 6 & 7). I like that the story is showing these different types of closeness and can roll with it. I see it as broader definitions of love, friendship, romance, and family.
I still really like this song about their relationship, as it is now, as well: [For Once in My Life](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cshSxo_QlWw) by Stevie Wonder.
Overall I'm thrilled with the show, but I wish we'd gotten more clarity about what exactly is going on with these four. Are Jim and Olu still best friends despite not being together romantically? Are Jim and Archie together, or in an ambiguous trauma-bonded situationship? Are Olu, Jim and Archie a poly unit? Is it all up in the air and un-defined? I could be down for ANY of these, but given the amount of buildup around Olu and Jim in S1, I want to know what's going on.
Also as much as I love Zheng (and I LOVE her) I don't fully understand Olu's attachment to her? To me it seemed he was more flattered that she was into him than actively interested in her, especially compared to his seemingly intense feelings for Jim last season.
honestly i think you've identified my big qualm: compared to this season and zheng, last season's olu was clearly like pining over jim and really deeply cared about and /knew/ them. like he could read them so well, sussed out all their defenses and clocked what they needed. it was a love that was clearly borne out of deep knowledge which is such an important part of lasting love. i am surprised that he would just sort of abandon? these feelings. maybe jim just isn't as down for a deep relationship and olu decided to look for that elsewhere, but i wish they had shown us that!
This this this. Olu and Jim have grown and their relationship has changed. Much better to allow each other to grow and flourish than try to stay together forever because that’s the conventional “true love lasts forever” normativity.
I love Jim & Archie. They had a real spark from the beginning that feels authentic. If this subreddit is any indication, I’m Team Archie party of one, but I don’t care. She’s not the character I most closely identify with, but I love that we finally have a queer woman that’s part of the family. As a queer woman myself, I finally feel like I have representation in this show. Before Archie, I adored season one and wondered if something was wrong with me for feeling so strongly about a show that’s not “mine.” I’m meant to be feeling affinity with The L Word and A League of Their Own.
Anyway. I digress. Yay, Archie & Jim!
I love Zheng too. Eager to see what develops with Zheng & Olu.
I love Archie, so it's at least a party of two! I may or may not have a folder of screenshots of Madeleine Sami from Deadloch and Taskmaster NZ. Have you seen Deadloch? It's very good, and many of the major characters are queer women. It's pretty light in tone but deals well with some serious issues too. Murder mystery and buddy cop comedy set in Australia.
So I was prepared to like Archie, but she's a good character. We know her as well now as we did most of the characters at the end of S1 and better than some. I'm also a queer woman and I agree - I do like to imagine Evelyn Higgins with a wife, but that's just a headcanon. I've never seen The L Word or A League of Their Own because they both seemed so heavy to me; I don't even know if that's true. I don't usually like fiction about women in which drama is the focus, I guess. I am much more of a comedy watcher, that's the main thing.
A Leave of Their Own is really heavy imo. We had to stop watching it because 90% of it is about misogyny, racism and homophobia, and relationships between queer women being fractured by these outside forces
Yeah so much this! When Jim kissed Archie I was like “wth remember Olu????” But when I gave it some thought it started to make so much sense in lgbtqia+ culture. And I love the show giving us different types of closeness, different ways to be someone’s “person”.
See there's too much gray area like there's too much room for interpretation in my opinion. For a show that was so good about showcasing communication they just fell short this season.
you’ll get downvoted but i agree with you. if they knew that they wouldn’t have as much time as they did in season 1, they should’ve made sure they had a sturdy & well-paced main plot before incorporating other, newer side plots.
But… they’re not split up? I feel like the folks getting so upset about this are maybe… not lgbtq community folks? (And I’m honestly not trying to be exclusionary here it’s just… way more common in queer spaces)
Jim is clearly poly, like Vico. They were all slow dancing together at the party lmao
This is the vibe I'm getting too. There's not actually been anything to definitively say that they're separated. Olu calls Jim babe, they all dance together at Calypso's birthday party. It just seems to me like a kind of unlabeled queer love and I absolutely adore it, but I could be wrong
That's what I thought was happening and I was excited about J/O/A, but then when Jim was talking to Zheng about Olu, it felt to me like they were implying that they were over with. Either way, I feel like the 4 of them have eaten up too much screen time this season. I think it either should have stayed the two of them, or introduced one new character to be added to make the relationship poly, but trying to make us care about two new love interests among everything else happening is not working for me. I hope you're right though
I'm queer, and while upset may not be the right word, I am confused. I loved Jim/Olu and I thought their dynamics in S1 were more friends to lovers; instead I think S2 is showing us that they are friends first and romantic aspects of their relationship are not the foundation of their relationship. Which is still meaningful and sweet, just not what I had taken away from S1.
And now in S2 it seems that the focus is Jim/Archie (which I do dislike) and Olu/Zheng which I feel meh about. I just want a wee bit more clarification, because I thought we were getting a poly couple but Zheng didn't seem into that and it seems like Olu/Jim are over...
I'm actually a gay trans man so that's incorrect.
It's very much implied that they're going their separate ways at the end of ep7. Also I literally don't care about vicos personal life. They're playing a character not playing themselves.
Obviously I didn’t mean that’s where it’s coming from for every person, but I wonder if it’s an element for some people.
It’s not a huge leap to make, though. Vico is non-binary, their character is canonically non-binary. I know they had a loooot of input on writing the character, and they’re pretty outspoken about being poly. It’s not unimaginable to guess that they’re also celebrating this part of their queer identity.
Jim is a fictional character, they are not Vico, and not everyone knows they are poly in real life. Also, I'm a cishet woman and I don't have any problem with anything queer (obviously, I love OFMD) so that includes polyamory, but that's the thing, if it's going there I'm not seeing it. Olu is seen in a lot of scenes with Jim and Archie, but he's just there? And pining for Zheng? If it's going there the lovely atmosphere of Jim/Olu from season 1 should not have disappeared just like that. I'm willing to wait and see but right now I sadly have to admit it feels not well developed and a little waste of time if you loved Jim and Olu together.
I think they meant that people who aren't as immersed in queer community might not pick up the same cues, and might find things odd that are normal in queer circles. Although I disagree that that's the divide between people who do and don't like the J/O/A/Z situation
I've picked up on the cues but kind of wish they would be a bit more transparent even still. And it's not so it can be confirmed, I feel like it's pretty obvious already- the shots of the three are framed in a very particular way. It's just kind of odd to me it feels like this very behind the scenes in the background kind of thing. Olu/Jim felt so much more fleshed out in comparison. Seeing the three together briefly every so often isn't the same. But I understand they only have so much time this season (I do think some of it could have been used better though 👀)
Idk, I'm queer, trans, and open to being poly, and I wish we'd had more clarity about what's going on. Last season we always knew the status of Jim and Olu's relationship, so I find it odd going from that to this level of ambiguity.
I think it's clear that Olu, Jim and Archie are close and often together. I don't think it's clear whether the relationship between any of them is ongoingly sexual/romantic. Archie used "fucked," past tense, to comment on Jim and Olu's relationship when she's talking to Zheng.
This!!! I honestly don’t even mind Archie being part of their relationship because Olu seems totally cool with it and some more poly representation would be really nice on the show, but I just genuinely don’t see any real connection between Zheng and Olu, it feels really forced and tacked on.
I see more connection w z/o than j/a tbh. Archie has like 4 lines in the entire show lol.
I don't mind the poly thing AS much I'd have been okay-er w that if they actually had a scene were jim/olu talked about it. But like s1 we see olu get jealous over jim sarcastically kissing lucius so I just feel like he wouldn't be super ok w a poly relationship but that's just my take on that.
I think people can have different jealousy responses when they're pining for someone than they do once they're in a relationship with them. I'd be delighted for my spouse to be with someone in addition to me, but before we were together, I felt sad seeing them dating other people.
It has nothing to do with screen time. Izzy gets shipped with like 80% of the crew, even the ones he's barely spoken a word to or not even that, just because there's physical chemistry there.
Then again, it seems like the common denominator is Con, that man would have chemistry with a damp rag.
I admire the writers' efforts for more representation, but writing the natural development of a poly relationship between 4 different people into a show with multiple other characters with established arcs of their own is a very ambitious task. Add in the short length and the number of the episodes, and it becomes downright impossible to execute well.
I think they bit off more than they can chew. I'd love to see a Jim/Olu/Zheng/Archie arc if we had more time with the show, but it wouldn't be my priority given how many other subplots and characters the show already had before. They could've expanded on them instead of cramming in this new arc that takes up enough screentime to detract from the other plots but not enough screentime to be properly developed
Yea I agree if maybe there was more communication and they actually established the poly thing I'd be more ok w that. But yea it's sloppy/poor writing. They could have given jim/olu a proper reunion. Not included archie in the story at all??? Like honestly what does she add? And make zheng not attracted to olu they could absolutely just be friends.
You can’t break up if you were never together in the first place.
I see Olu and Jim as two people who were in the shit in S1, they bonded over mutual trauma and felt as though they could only trust each other. Them having sex when they reunited felt like an “I’m so happy that you’re okay” moment, not some grand, emotional lovemaking.
A platonic relationship between two people who have had sex, but with no awkwardness or hard feelings after the fact is better representation to me than if they just got together. They love each other, they support each other, they would *die* for each other. That’s enough.
Nah olu was in love w Jim that was well established in s1. The shaman confronts him abt it. Nana thinks they're married etc.
Interesting you bring up platonic relationships tho bc olu/zheng could have been in a platonic relationship. Instead we have 2 major characters with well established backgrounds (olu/jim) that are now with 2 relatively flat characters that we have little to no background on.
This! My biggest issue is that Archie is soooo flat and boring, and I just can't find it in me to care about her when we have so many other great characters to focus on.
Jim said they missed olu and they fucked??? He told the shaman to shut up when he said he was in love??? And then said "they're just my friend" in a sad tone confirming he was in love with jim???? This is just bad media literacy lol its 100% obvious that they loved each other.
It’s worse media literacy to *insist* that sex equals love!! Friends can love each other! Friends can miss each other! Friends can *fuck* each other!!
We don’t get a solid timeline between S1 and 2, but a decent period of time seems to have passed, and if Olu had *legitimately* been in love with Jim, there would have been hard feelings or awkwardness beyond “Oh, Archie? She’s cute!!”. He *liked* Jim, and they’re clearly more than happy with what they’ve got right now, whether they end up a polycule or not.
It wasn't just them having sex that shows they were in love but ok. I'm not going go explain every situation in s1 that shows they loved one another lol. They're more happy w what they have now because of lazy writing.
I think a lot of people in this thread have done a *really* great job with their interpretations of this relationship as well. You seem like you just want to be upset at this point 😬
I think a part of the point is that you can love your friends and even be in love with them in a platonic way. Yeah, they loved each other and they still do. Their relationship just changed, just like in real life it does sometimes.
Tbh I do get the impression that it is a depiction of polyamory and I'm glad about that representation, I just find it sad that there are many people who seem to think a little bit narrow when it comes to different depictions of love.
There are SO many types of polyamory and metamours, there are queerplatonic relationships...
Still agree with some of issues around pacing and the character introductions, but I don't care that much about it.
We all were waiting so much for this seasons and maybe we build up too much excitement and too high expectations.
I think a lot more people would be on board if it was clear what's happening. If they're in a queer platonic relationship or a poly relationship, that's great! But last season they used two lines and like 30 seconds of screen time to satisfyingly explain Lucius and Black Pete's open relationship. "Nice! He's drawn most of us." "See? We don't own each other." Bam. It would've been great to get the equivalent of that with the Jim/Olu/Archie situation.
BUT I agree that we need to temper our expectations. We all have very strong feelings about these characters and we'll inevitably be disappointed with some choices.
I was surprised to see so many people thinking that Olu and Jim had NOT broken up, I thought it was pretty obvious (and pretty infuriating tbh).
Anyway this is what David Jenkins said in an [interview](https://www.gamesradar.com/our-flag-means-death-season-2-showrunner-interview-david-jenkins/):
"At the start of the season, level-headed crew member Oluwande (Samson Kayo) and love interest Jim are split between ships. When the pair reunite, they've already set their sights on other shipmates, but there's no bad blood between them. Jenkins explains that he was keen to push boundaries of what exes look like, queering familiar, unhealthier relationship tropes."
"That relationship always felt like a friendship that got romantic, and it's fun to play with that. If you do have romantic feelings for a friend, and they meet somebody, you're happy for them because they're happy. But then you're also a little bit like, 'That's mine, they're mine,' so the push and pull that is sweet," he says. "A lot of times you see that, it's about the drama of jealousy, and I like the idea that, actually, they're happy for each other. They just want to see the other person be happy and healthy, and I don't think you see that a lot on television. They usually play more to the angst and the negative drama of it."
Honestly it feels like a pretty big departure from season one Olu&Jim and I really don't understand why they decided to go with this storyline, it still doesn't make any sense to me.
Thank you for posting this! I was gonna update OP bc I read that interview a few hours ago but I'm lazy and also trying to stay away from my phone I've had too much screen time today lol. And I agree it doesn't make sense like i said it harms s1 IMO. Like if I were to rewatch s1 w s2 in mind all the jim/olu stuff in that season is now a waste of time. I'm literally dumbfounded at this decision. It really doesn't make sense.
Also I think ppl saying they're not broken up are just obsessed w them being poly bc vico is. Ppl in this Fandom seem to really enjoy making up stuff in their minds for characters which is fine but that doesn't mean its cannon. I do see where people are coming from w the poly thing and I would be ok w it of it was executed well but it wasn't. Like I said in OP it genuine pisses me off lol.
I didn't feel that they hurt s1 at all? If anything, the love and acceptance and openness of the two shines more clearly in s2 - Jim and Olu absolutely love each other, Olu accepts Archie and how Archie and Jim found each other on Blackbeard's hellship, Jim wants Olu to figure out what's going on with Zheng Yi Sao and not live with questions and regrets, Jim and Archie love Olu enough to leave a ship they love to be with him. The love is overwhelming.
Love can look like a lot of different things, and just because it looks different than what someone might expect doesn't make it not love, or make it a lesser kind of love. I mean, I am not poly, but the ease and gentleness and expansiveness of the way this is being portrayed just makes me so soft - like, I *get* it and I love it.
I love that it's being presented in such a loving and non-dramatic way, just like we did with Jim's pronouns. We and they are learning who they are and how they love.
Thank you. As a poly queer person who is so used to never seeing poly joy, posts like this are really demoralizing. Responses like yours brings me joy.
I'm glad 💗 like I said, I'm not poly. But they demoralize me, too - it's just such a beautiful portrayal of a kind of relationship we hardly ever see and of which most of us have a poor understanding.
(Also I feel intensely protective of our sapphic snake queen!)
I don't think the post is bashing being poly..they are critiquing the fact that it all felt so rushed. There was no real build up for Olu + Zheng. All of a sudden Olu is willing to drop everything for a person he knew for like..half a day? And then they're all gung ho about sailing off into the sunset with Jim and Archie? It just doesn't add up. If it evolved naturally over the entire season, I'd be all for the poly dynamic.
It just makes me so fucking mad because we have such limited time so when they use so much of it to establish a couple then right away break that couple up, seemingly for good, it makes it feel like all that season 1 time was wasted on them. In real life couples get together and breakup and that is fine but when you only have 5 hours in the first season why waste the time??? We could have spent that season 1 time with Frenchie or someone else.
I'm trying to stay in the positive side of the fandom right now to balance out the negativity we are seeing this week, but I have to agree with this. I wasn't loving this subplot but choose to mostly ignore it and/or wait. But suddenly it took a lot of screen time in episode 7 without making a lot of sense and the leaving Stede was hurtful. And now we are focused on season 2, but yeah, when you think about all the Jim/Olu time in season 1, all the fanart and love and time the pair received, it hurts.
I might have an unpopular opinion here, but I don’t have investment in either Archie nor Zheng within the context of the show. They were brought on too abruptly with not enough character development for me to actually love them. I don’t necessarily need the Jim and Olu ship but I had barely any interest in their other ships. Part of that is because I know Zheng isn’t just gonna be a ship side plot, she’s gonna fuck shit up, but still. I had zero interest in her and Olu
I also disagree that Jim and Olu were the secondary romance- id say that was Lucius and Pete
I can see how you could think thay about Pete and lucius but they didn't really have much relationship building. They were kinda messing around and then fell in love which is 100% I love them so much I love how Pete has grown as a person bc his love for lucius and I'm so glad they had a proper reunion in s2 and that they didn't tamper w their dynamic. But we don't really get loads of background on them. We have like 2 episodes devoted to jim/olus relationship. There is build-up throughout the entire first season for them where Pete and lucius it's little bits and pieces. They definitely had more screen time together as a couple (or at least building their relationship together) than Pete and lucius did together. So that's why I say they're the secondary romance couple/story
They actually haven't. The show is depicting a different type of relationship between them. It isn't a traditional one. But the show celebrates and embraces the different way that people experience love, and joy, and relationships. They haven't split up. In fact, they've declared that what they have will last a lifetime.
It's heavily implied in e7 they're splitting up. They have not confirmed anything about a poly relationship. Like you can make up stuff for yourself that's fine but yea I need the actual show to confirm that for me.
>It's heavily implied in e7 they're splitting up.
This isn't heavily implied at all.
And you didn't argue it was "implied" they were splitting up. You are arguing they *had* split up.
And I'm not "making anything up." That's a horrific and offensive thing to imply here, considering the history of fanfic and people literally having to "make things up" in order to have any representation *at all* in media.
You are tho. Like you can imagine them being poly all u want. I'll accept it if the show actually makes it happen but until this point it seems more like zheng and olu are going to be a couple and separate from jim/arcie. Zheng even says "don't push your luck" when jim/arcie ask for their own room. Also to be poly you kinda have to communicate that with the people in said relationship and we have had 0 communication between archie/jim/olu/zheng so it really doesn't work or again it's poor writing. I also do not care about fanfic at all I'm watching the show not reading fanfic.
>You are tho.
I'm not tho.
I'm not imagining them to be "poly." To be honest, I'm not entirely sure exactly what that *means,* or if that even matters here*.* What I'm seeing on screen is that Archie and Jim and Olu depict a relationship that shows *unconditional love*. That's all *on screen*. I'm not locked into a binary.
And its okay that you don't care about fanfic. Because I don't read fanfic either. But I do care about the people who write fanfic, and the people who both read and enjoy fanfic, and it is obvious that you missed my point. Fanfic filled a hole that existed because people couldn't find themselves in the media they consumed. That's a problem with the *media*. And its insulting to imply that people finding space for themselves in the media ecosystem is nothing more than "making things up."
It’s nice to see a poly relationship. I totally get that we don’t know enough about Archie. And honestly, that’s fair.
I love Zheng and I’m totally down for Zheng/Oluwande. Tbh. It could’ve just been those three for me(Oluwande/Zheng/Jim).
I found it believable that Jim and Archie connected in the way that they did. Like Frenchie said, they've been living second to second for a while now. Probably assumed Olu was dead. It did seem a little weird given how much build up J & O got in S1 but then, people do change, regardless of romance tropes--- that's s2 all over.
I liked that the writers made space for Jim to apparently figure out that they're into women. (and yeah I wish we had a lot more time with Archie.) No wonder the reunion was awkward. Neither Jim nor Olu really knew where the stood on the friend/lover/family spectrum at the moment, just that they matter to each other deeply. I loved seeing Jim approach Zhang at the end. What love! They just want Olu to be happy.
and the friends to lovers to family arc seems to be pretty common among my queer friends and I love to see space made for it on screen. "It can be whatever we want it to be"- another motif of the whole season.
They were friends with benefits, not soul mates. They hadn’t seen each other in probably a couple of months and didn’t even know if the other was dead or alive. Were they supposed to just not make new friends or form new bonds? How would you have written the show to keep them together after Ed kidnapped Jim and Olu was left on an island?
Well first off I wouldn't have put archie in the show at all. She has little to no background. Has 0 character development. We have basically no reason to be attached to her. I would have given jim/olu an actual reunion. They were in love in s1 that's extremely obvious and each thought the other was potentially dead and all we get is them blandly talking about towels? Zheng could have simply been friends with Olu bc platonic relationships are fine. OR if there was a push for a poly relationship it could have been between zheng/olu/jim. Instead we get vital time spent on a flat character arc and we are rushing other things that should not have been rushed.
So Jim has been kidnapped by Ed and is in an horrible situation and they are not allowed to have someone who can relate to what they are going through? Not allowed to have a companion or someone to blow off steam with? Jim and Olu are friends, as Jim said they are each others anchor and they love each other, but I don’t think they were in love.
Do all the other crew members not exist to you or???? Jim had other people they could have confided in. Characters that were well established in s1 that we actually have connection to. To just randomly throw a Character into a story then giving that character 0 background is just bad writing! And olu was at least un love with Jim. The shaman bit established that. Like i genuinely didn't think that it would even be a debate?? Did you assume they were just fwb before s2 came out?? Bc they absolutely had in love vibes in s1.
you mean Frenchie, who originally thought Jim being on the ship was bad luck? Or Fang and Izzy, who worked for Black Beard, the person who kidnapped them? Jim had more in common with Archie being they were the only two non males on the ship, so Archie could probably relate to Jim far better than Frenchie, Izzy or Fang. And you can have love for someone without being in love them. And it is possible to get over people you were in love with.
Frenchie and the rest of the crew accepted Jim. The revenge crew were family. Even Jim says they didn't know they were in the good ol days fondly remembering being a part of the revenge crew. Jim could have confided in the crew all together. Where did archie Even come from? How did she meet everyone? We have nothing. No reason to care about the character. She didn't need to exist.
First, just because Frenchie accepted Jim doesn’t mean he could relate to Jim the way Archie could. I suspect Jim was remembering being captained by Stede fondly compared with what was going on with Black Beard. Where did Archie come from? Where did any of the crew come from. What was Roaches back story? Or Black Pete’s? Frenchie, said he used to work in service, but how did become a pirate? Other than Jim, was there an in-depth discussion of how any of the crew ended up on the revenge? No, we just accepted that they got there. Archie may have been on one of Black Beard’s other ships, maybe they picked up more crew members on the Republic of Pirates. Try having a little imagination instead of needing everything spelled out for you.
How does archie relate to jim???????? There is no character/relationship building at ALL. 0. The other crew members were recruited by stede in s1! That's how they got onto the ship it was discussed. How did archie even get onto the ship?? We have no clue. THAT is poor writing!! All those other characters you mentioned are minor characters. It would be fuckin weird as hell if Jim just RANDOMLY got romantic with Roach/Frenchie/anyone else because THERE WAS V LITTLE DEVELOPMENT BETWEEN JIM AND THOSE CHARACTERS. ITS THE SAME REASON WHY IT DOESNT WORK W ARCHIE. We spent all of s1 developing a clear romance between Olu and Jim and then it just gets pushed aside. Its jarring. Itd be like reading a book where 10 capters are dedicated to developing a romance between 2 primary characters and then you turn the page to chapter 11 and suddenly theyre just smitten by 2 side characters. I do not want to have imagination for a show. I'm watching a show that is supposed to give me the plot in a clear and concise manner otherwise it's poor writing. Period.
How much background do we have on Izzy, the Swede, Fang, Roach, Frenchie, Wee John, Black Pete, Buttons, or Lucius? The little we know about the background of those characters before they joined the crew is from one-off lines about sewing dresses or being a servant. Jim, Stede, and Ed are the only characters who get backstory shown on screen.
A lot more than Archie lmao. We got to see them as characters in s1. We have had practically no screen time of Archie thu the entire 2nd season. Shit ivan had such little screen time they cut the actor out of the show and wrote it off that he died when he had more screen time in s1 than Archie had in s2. Like it's an unnecessary add of a character to force a poorly written possibly poly couple?? It adds nothing to the story. And diminished the build up of Teal oranges in s1.
I'm not talking about screen time. I'm commenting on you saying she has no background. She has the same amount of background as 95% of the other characters on the show.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it was badly written.
That kinda goes hand I'm hand tho. Regardless Olu and Jim were very much main characters in s1. Multiple episodes were devoted to the development of Jim and olus relationship. We know them on a personal level. We know little about zheng and even less about Archie. They stuck 2 main characters with side characters. That would be like Stede just deciding he was going to be with steak knife after Ed left. It is POOR writing to put well developed, fleshed out characters with flat side characters that we know very little about and then just expect the audience to accept that.
I like Jim/Archie/Olu but I agree that the Zheng angle of it was forced and them wanting to leave Stede for it was weird and didn’t track for me. I don’t feel like Jim and Olu need to be soulmates but I wasn’t convinced by the story that Zheng was important enough to disrupt everything.
I wish they’d shown Jim & Olu’s grief and acceptance of the others probable death. They thought he was left on an island to die, and were being held prisoner (at least in the beginning).
Olu only had Ed’s wanted poster to hope what They were up to-if They survived Ed.
Including both characters expressing this wouldn’t have taken much screen time, and it would have made moving on make sense.
I absolutely agree. Also showing izzy/probably the rest of the crew initially enjoying being proper pirates would have been good. It does also bother me that the crew is just suddenly ok w izzy. They were literally going to kill him in s1 by throwing him overboard bc he was being such a bitch. I feel like izzy would have been really enjoying himself at first. His development bothers me too but not quite as much as the j/o thing. But this just solidifies even more for me that they should have not included the other relationships bc they could have spent more time expanding on things that made s1 and s2 more cohesive.
I don’t quite understand why this story line needed to happen either. Jim and Olu’s journey as such a huge part of s1, I just didn’t see the post in introducing new people into their story this soon. I adore Zheng though and she easily could’ve been introduced this series without a romantic story line at all. That’s how strong her presence is. She would’ve made an amazing series long villain. And Archie just feels wasted. Which is unfortunate because the actress is clearly hilarious. She would’ve been better cast in the Mary and Anne episode.
Agreed zheng is such a strong role on her own she doesn't need a romantic interest. It even would have made sense for her teaming up w stede given that ya know her entire fleet was exploded. Idk. It just kinda boils down to wasted time for me. Adding unnecessary stuff to the show that already was moving slightly too fast. So we could have spent that time elsewhere
To me it just really feels like a wasted opportunity to give one of the other characters more screen time... any other crew member could have been with Zheng instead.
I thought the only reason they were together in season one was their long friendship. Olu is calm and likes to talk things out while Jim is quick to act and uses violence more.
Plus they are two unique characters, I dont know if their relationship really defined them like Stede and Ed. Let alone their relationship no longer happening ruining the season.
I understand some have strong opinions of the two being together, but I dont know if that necessarily should ruin the show for you cause that changed.
It cuts down all of the character/relationship building we saw in s1
So now rewatching s1 knowing that olus plan was to just "go with zheng" why should I care? They absolutely hurt s1 w this decision in my opinion
Too be fair I thought it was weird Jim just hopped to Olu in season 1 imo. I didnt see it. I think their characters stand on their own just fine without being together. I get it its a matter of taste, but i just dont see it ruining season 1 as their being in a relationship was also a journey in their still existing friendship
They were friends before being on the Revenge, not in a relationship. Only becoming a thing later while on the Revenge.
I understand you feel very strongly about them being together but to call it “ruining” season one of the show is subjective to you.
Obviously it's subjective it my opinion. Plenty of ppl agree and ppl can disagree that's how opinions work. We find out v early on in s1 that olu has feelings for Jim
Like literally in episode 2. Yea they hadn't been romantic but the feelings were there. That was established early on. We spent so much time building their relationship in s1 for it to be cut down by side characters that yea it ruins s1. We could have been focusing on Pete/lucius more or any other characters. It hurts rewatch value for s1.
Agree. I've seen many people say that Jim and Olu are just "best friends who fucked" and now they're both interested in different people and wanna try something new, but the relationship they had in season one was definitely more profound than that. Their new "relationships" are completely rushed, which doesn't fit at all with how this show has previously handled relationships, that were always well built and believable
Absolutely. It really makes me wonder what ppls opinion on their relationship was before s2 came out bc I feel like it was well established that they loved each other romantically. It really discounts all the build up in s1 (which is why I hold the opinion that this season hurts s1) I just feel like ppl have adjusted their expectations for s2 to accept this odd black and white poly relationship. Ppl are happy for representation, but it's poor representation of a poly relationship in my opinion. It's just thrown together 0 communication which doesn't work in a poly relationship.
Yes I love her! She's adorable and completely bad ass. She killed a man w some SLAPS UGH she's so cool. 😵
I feel like Jim would be more willing to let go than olu tho? I mean I don't feel like either of them would b super willing given all of s1. (It actually shocks me that some ppl are claiming that they were fwb in s1?? Like it's so clearly set up that they're romantically interested/in love) but Jim has always been more reserved and was more willing to let olu go to continue their hunt for the dudes that murdered their family. Where olu got wasted and gave the room away bc he missed them so much. Idk I feel like there are loads of ways this could have been handled better. I feel like the j/o reunion was sooooo disappointing given all the relationship building in s1. The fact that we have 2 major characters from s1 just randomly getting into equally flat lifeless relationships in s2 is just insulting to me lol. Ppl keep bringing up they're different characters due to "trauma" but to me it feels like we had too much push from Vico (Jim's actor) for a poly thing and the writers just caved. So they poorly included what could be potentially considered a poly relationship. Which again to me is insulting bc now poly ppl are basically given a "kill your gays" treatment where (so far) they're given a slight bit of hinted inclusion that's black and white/poorly executed. It feels forced and I dislike it v much lol.
I can’t shake the feeling that they pushed the polyamory idea because Vico is polyamorous in real life and they thought it’d be neat to draw from their personal experience. Nothing inherently bad with that but I feel like Vico is bleeding a bit too much into Jim (even though I really like them as a person and think they’re really cool!! So not a bad thing per se but I only see Vico in Jim in season 2, I don’t see Jim at all anymore if that makes sense.)
I absolutely agree w this. So many ppl bring up that they're NB and Poly and like yea that's fantastic for them I just do not care at all about their personal life??? They're playing a character not themselves. They're an actor not a writer. Jim feels like a drastically different character between s1 and s2 and ppl just write it off bc "trauma" but that's just more proof of lazy writing for me bc nothing was discussed in the show about that. And if anything trauma just makes ppl more reserved (normally) and we saw trauma worked that way for Jim in s1. It took them years to let themselves be with olu. But they know archie for 2 months? And they're just totally comfortable w her? It's bizarre. And again I have no hatred for poly ppl they can do what they want but without communication shit doesn't work. We see that in s1 (every time someone doesn't communicate bad shit happens to them) and obviously we see that irl. So it just doesn't work for me. They knew they were gonna have less time in s2 they shouldn't have added a flat dynamic that doesn't rly go anywhere bc there was no time to communicate what's happening. They could have spent that time deepening other characters/more ed/stede stuff.
This! I mentioned the other day that it feels like they're just going through a checklist with the whole Jim/Archie/Olu/Zheng thing. Like it's super rushed and *very* imbalanced, and confusing. I personally see Jim and Olu as queer platonic at most now. Even if *Jim*/*Vico* is poly, Olu and Zheng are being written as a closed pairing in that last episode, which makes it even more confusing.
Also, Jim was my favorite character on season one and I was wondering why I'm starting to lose interest in them but I think you nailed it. I'm not really seeing Jim as a character anymore.
At this point Jim is just Vico. They put too much of themselves into the character. Which honestly shouldn't have been allowed. They're an actor. They act well. They're not a writer they should not have that much say in the character that was already well developed in s1
I understand why you are sad and disappointed. S1 ended with Jim and Olu growing their relationship from friendship and a sense of being family for each other and turning that into a romantic pairing. S2 opens with each of them finding new romantic partners after being parted for only a few months. That was quite a surprise for me, too but it is something that happens in real life. Each of the new couples feels authentic to me. I only wish we’d had more of an introduction to Archie. We got to see a shorthand version of how Olu and Zheng met, but not how Jim and Archie met so their relationship just appeared from nowhere which made it seem jarring.
Jim & Archie's relationship feels like trauma bonding to me, personally. It felt realistic because of their shared trauma for those months.
I hope the show goes into that a little more, maybe in season 3, and centers that relationship/polycule a little more.
I think there's a lot of truth in saying that they were trauma bonding. I just wonder for now if Archie will even be a character in S3. I hope so because I'm enjoying the character and the performer (Madeleine Sami) quite a lot. I can't tell if Zheng is going to carry over into S3, either.
it doesn’t seem to me like they’re ‘split up’? i mean just because their relationship dynamic is no longer singular and has changed because of the separation doesn’t mean that they’re ‘split up’ tbh
Could have broken up Jim & Olu if they had more time.
MAYBE if there wss only 1 love interest.
But there was nom of that and it just took too much time and made the already short season feel MORE crammed together
If zheng was against giving Jim and Archie their own room I find it hard to believe that she would be comfortable sharing a room with them. Maybe we'll get some more development in s3 I doubt we will this season. But yea it just doesn't seem in character from what we have seen from her
It makes me even more invested in ed/stede to be honest. They could have used that time to focus on them more. The j/a/o/z thing is just SOOOO forced for me. Everything in s1 felt so natural so it feels wrong that this season is so rushed. And I get it max sucks they 100% deserved more time but that wasn't reality so they should have expanded on the things that were already there and worked in s1 and if they wanted to do a poly thing maybe expand more on that in s3 if they have time.
Yeah, they put way too much in S1 to have it not pay off in S2. I personally like their new pairings better though. Even after their romance in S1, I still saw J/O as friends who always need each other’s support instead of a love that could possibly turn sour.
I think Zheng and Olu also have an amazing natural chemistry. Not as much of a Archie and Jim fan, but do see Archie as more of a person Jim would need romantically, meaning not tied down.
I mean… I think they’re setting a foursome relationship type situation, but the issue is that we got all of this build up romantically for the two of them in season one and some build up with Oluwande and his love interest in season two, but virtually nothing about Jim’s new love interest. She just kind of appeared on the ship. We don’t know anything about her except for that she was randomly in a snake cult, which is like funny, but also… Why should I care? And there’s really not any chemistry between, the four of them as a unit. I think they only have at most one or two scenes together, so why should I buy it? Why should I buy that Oluwande and Jim would just leave Stede like that? It makes me sad for Stede and for the rest of the crew. They were really coming together as a family…
I find Zheng a more interesting, developed, and compelling character, but I feel like the bond between Jim and Archie feels more developed than Olu and Zheng. We see Archie and Jim connecting. a little build up to their kiss, and some stuff building off the kiss. But Zheng it just feels like we’re told she likes Olu and then after she confesses, we’re told Olu likes her back. But I don’t feel like there was as much buildup to it except maybe the light flirting when she was soup girl.
Also... what does she like about him? We know he's awesome, but other than him being a qt, why would she be interested in him? He's right that she conquered China and he apparently can't learn to say China, what does she have in common with him? We don't see anything that they would potentially be building a relationship out of, just that he's "the break in her day". We don't see anything that looks like they would have a partnership.
I get the sense that she likes his simplicity. Olu is smart, but he’s not worldly (hence being unable to remember how to say “China”). She’s commanded an entire army of pirates, and now she’s assembled a second. She’s clearly brilliant and powerful and adventurous, and I think part of her wants to settle in and be a homebody sometimes. Olu is sweet and funny, and I can see how he’d be a good partner for her (or anyone. I’m a little in love with him). I agree I don’t feel the chemistry with them as much, but from a logical standpoint I can see how he would help her to tap into a lost part of herself.
I don't feel any chemistry between Olu and Zheng, which makes their relationship very unbelievable to me. I can at least sense the attraction between Jim and Archie.
Same here! I actually made a thread about how in episode 2 olu was actually like...stupid?? Like dumb bimboesqe (with the scroll thing/not being able to pronounce china etc) and I honestly thought he found something out and was trying to protect the crew/stede. Like he was hushing stede when he was I'm the room w the 2 of them. So I assumed him kissing zheng was to like save their asses or something bc it felt so lifeless. So I was truly shocked when Jim mentioned how olu was constantly talking abt zheng (which we literally saw 0 of this happening :/) and their romance actually played out.
That's what I thought too! That Olu was only playing along with Zheng to save the crew. Honestly, The Swede's relationship with Spanish Jackie felt more developed
It truly does. Love the Swede. Happy for him. Swedish massage bit was absolute comedic gold.
That’s my biggest issue also. I haven’t really felt anything for Archie. Just a rowdy crew member. I don’t hate the character, but I just feel very neutral.
Yeah, I feel the exact same way. It’s not that I hate her. I even think I could like her a hell of a lot, if they gave her more to do! I want to like her! I really do!
Yep. I like Jim, Olu, and Zheng, so I hope they show us more to give me something for Archie.
I do love her kiwi style humor. Like when Jim is asking what to use to cut Izzy’s leg and Archie thinks she’s asking which leg they should cut. Little quips like that make me think of short poppies, a show everyone who hasn’t seen should go watch immediately.
Yeah her whole personality is just rowdy party girl and I’m not attached to her like I am to everyone else. Zheng and Auntie are by far better season two additions who I hope stick around and I’m even hella mad at Zheng right now for how rude she was being to Stede! Calling another pirate a serial killer is pretty rich
I was excited to see her because I just watched her in Deadloch and she is so funny. While my partner and I were watching he said “I feel like she would work well with Taika Waititi” then we looked it up and saw that they are friends and have worked together.
Well said and 100% agreed. Stede risked it all to save them. He waited to go see Ed who he thought was dead to make sure his crew was safe. Also. Zheng was literally about to kill jim/archie bc the mutiny. So are we just gonna ignore that?? Why couldn't she have ignored that before?? Bc it wasn't convenient to the story?? Idk again seems like lazy writing to me.
To be fair, Zheng hadn't decided to kill them. It was Auntie who wanted to kill the Kraken crew right off the hop. Zheng was ready to give them leniency when it was just "mutiny adjacent", and even when she found out that it was mutiny, she didn't explicitly say she was going to kill them. Yes, it could have been just a ploy to get Olu on her side, and she could have been intending to kill them regardless. But, outwardly, it didn't seem like her mind was made up, yet.
The way I think about it is the people Jim and Olu were in S1 is not who they are now. They went through so much and still love each other but perhaps it's different type of love now. I wish we got more overall development (give them a decent budget HBO or so help me god ) for Jim and Archie and Olu and Zheng. I feel like they're almost setting up a poly relationship with Olu and Jim, especially with the way Olu still has such love for Jim and Zheng. It also comes across more as trauma bonding for Jim and Archie than a truly romantic relationship (at least from my POV) which makes sense considering the amount of time they sailed with The Kraken, where as Olu and Zheng offer a balance to each other and have more of a fun romantic relationship. Olu and Zheng literally have the coffee (soup?) Shop romance plot. I wish they would have done more with Olu and Jim and their dynamic but I think their dynamic is part of it. They fit together like puzzle pieces no matter what they need from each other from friends to more which is why I'm thinking there's going to be a poly angle going on soon, but it's also why I would be ok if they didn't. Jim and Olu love each other in such a way that it seems transformative depending on their lives at the time. The way I see this season is the crew went through hella trauma and is just trying to cope and move on and be better. That's my two cents :)
A trauma bond would mean that one of them is doing the traumatizing and the the traumatized person is bonded to their abuser.
It's unfortunate that you're getting downvoted for being correct. Source, for confirmation: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/trauma-bonding/
Trauma bonding is going through a traumatic situation together and then forming a bond. So Archie and Jim went through the trauma of Blackbeard as captain together, and formed a bond over it
That absolutely is not what trauma bonding is. The other poster is correct, trauma bonding is when someone develops a deep attachment to their abuser. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/trauma-bonding/
Thank you for the correction on the term. I know there is a phenomenon where people bond over trauma though but maybe there’s not a term for it
The term you're looking for is 'shared trauma'.
Is there not a more specific term for say, a couple surviving a horrific car accident and then getting married the next day? Or you’d just say their shared trauma caused them to latch onto each other
Impulsive behavior secondary to shared trauma.
You can find reputable sources that describe both types of trauma bonding (i.e., the bond between abuser and abused, and the bond between victims of similar trauma). Of course, it depends on who you ask as to which is the "accurate" term.
What reputable source defines a trauma bond as a bond between two people who experienced a traumatic event together?
I have some thoughts (I mostly disagree). My BTS theory - Vico Ortiz and Samson Kayo are both up & coming young actors. Maybe they felt it would showcase their range better if they had something different to do this season. Lead to more future jobs. They are both extremely attractive people, but neither of them have typical Hollywood looks. There are also not that many nonbinary actors out there, though I know of a few others. It makes sense to put Olu and Jim into different situations this season and let more of their abilities shine. Also, there are all sorts of relationships, and I like that the show has one like Olu/Jim. "My best friend that I dated (or was married to) and am still very close to, and they may always be the most important person in my life, but we're not dating anymore" is a very common relationship category, especially for lgbtq+ people. Also, they might all be polyamorous (I don't actually think so, but I did before episodes 6 & 7). I like that the story is showing these different types of closeness and can roll with it. I see it as broader definitions of love, friendship, romance, and family. I still really like this song about their relationship, as it is now, as well: [For Once in My Life](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cshSxo_QlWw) by Stevie Wonder.
Overall I'm thrilled with the show, but I wish we'd gotten more clarity about what exactly is going on with these four. Are Jim and Olu still best friends despite not being together romantically? Are Jim and Archie together, or in an ambiguous trauma-bonded situationship? Are Olu, Jim and Archie a poly unit? Is it all up in the air and un-defined? I could be down for ANY of these, but given the amount of buildup around Olu and Jim in S1, I want to know what's going on. Also as much as I love Zheng (and I LOVE her) I don't fully understand Olu's attachment to her? To me it seemed he was more flattered that she was into him than actively interested in her, especially compared to his seemingly intense feelings for Jim last season.
honestly i think you've identified my big qualm: compared to this season and zheng, last season's olu was clearly like pining over jim and really deeply cared about and /knew/ them. like he could read them so well, sussed out all their defenses and clocked what they needed. it was a love that was clearly borne out of deep knowledge which is such an important part of lasting love. i am surprised that he would just sort of abandon? these feelings. maybe jim just isn't as down for a deep relationship and olu decided to look for that elsewhere, but i wish they had shown us that!
This this this. Olu and Jim have grown and their relationship has changed. Much better to allow each other to grow and flourish than try to stay together forever because that’s the conventional “true love lasts forever” normativity. I love Jim & Archie. They had a real spark from the beginning that feels authentic. If this subreddit is any indication, I’m Team Archie party of one, but I don’t care. She’s not the character I most closely identify with, but I love that we finally have a queer woman that’s part of the family. As a queer woman myself, I finally feel like I have representation in this show. Before Archie, I adored season one and wondered if something was wrong with me for feeling so strongly about a show that’s not “mine.” I’m meant to be feeling affinity with The L Word and A League of Their Own. Anyway. I digress. Yay, Archie & Jim! I love Zheng too. Eager to see what develops with Zheng & Olu.
I love Archie, so it's at least a party of two! I may or may not have a folder of screenshots of Madeleine Sami from Deadloch and Taskmaster NZ. Have you seen Deadloch? It's very good, and many of the major characters are queer women. It's pretty light in tone but deals well with some serious issues too. Murder mystery and buddy cop comedy set in Australia. So I was prepared to like Archie, but she's a good character. We know her as well now as we did most of the characters at the end of S1 and better than some. I'm also a queer woman and I agree - I do like to imagine Evelyn Higgins with a wife, but that's just a headcanon. I've never seen The L Word or A League of Their Own because they both seemed so heavy to me; I don't even know if that's true. I don't usually like fiction about women in which drama is the focus, I guess. I am much more of a comedy watcher, that's the main thing.
A Leave of Their Own is really heavy imo. We had to stop watching it because 90% of it is about misogyny, racism and homophobia, and relationships between queer women being fractured by these outside forces
Yay, I’m not alone! Thanks! I must find Deadloch.
Deadloch is so fucking good. It’s one of those rare series I finished and immediately had to watch again.
Have you seen The Breaker Uperers?
No, I will check it out! Thank you.
Party of three!
Yeah so much this! When Jim kissed Archie I was like “wth remember Olu????” But when I gave it some thought it started to make so much sense in lgbtqia+ culture. And I love the show giving us different types of closeness, different ways to be someone’s “person”.
See there's too much gray area like there's too much room for interpretation in my opinion. For a show that was so good about showcasing communication they just fell short this season.
Oh yeah, I'm with you there. I really wish this season had been twice as long as it is.
Definitely but if they knew they were gonna have time constraints they should have worked around that to make the story feel like an extension of s1
you’ll get downvoted but i agree with you. if they knew that they wouldn’t have as much time as they did in season 1, they should’ve made sure they had a sturdy & well-paced main plot before incorporating other, newer side plots.
But… they’re not split up? I feel like the folks getting so upset about this are maybe… not lgbtq community folks? (And I’m honestly not trying to be exclusionary here it’s just… way more common in queer spaces) Jim is clearly poly, like Vico. They were all slow dancing together at the party lmao
Slow dancing together AND there’s a quick line about how the three of them had been “sharing a room” to Zheng 👀
This is the vibe I'm getting too. There's not actually been anything to definitively say that they're separated. Olu calls Jim babe, they all dance together at Calypso's birthday party. It just seems to me like a kind of unlabeled queer love and I absolutely adore it, but I could be wrong
That's what I thought was happening and I was excited about J/O/A, but then when Jim was talking to Zheng about Olu, it felt to me like they were implying that they were over with. Either way, I feel like the 4 of them have eaten up too much screen time this season. I think it either should have stayed the two of them, or introduced one new character to be added to make the relationship poly, but trying to make us care about two new love interests among everything else happening is not working for me. I hope you're right though
I'm queer, and while upset may not be the right word, I am confused. I loved Jim/Olu and I thought their dynamics in S1 were more friends to lovers; instead I think S2 is showing us that they are friends first and romantic aspects of their relationship are not the foundation of their relationship. Which is still meaningful and sweet, just not what I had taken away from S1. And now in S2 it seems that the focus is Jim/Archie (which I do dislike) and Olu/Zheng which I feel meh about. I just want a wee bit more clarification, because I thought we were getting a poly couple but Zheng didn't seem into that and it seems like Olu/Jim are over...
I'm actually a gay trans man so that's incorrect. It's very much implied that they're going their separate ways at the end of ep7. Also I literally don't care about vicos personal life. They're playing a character not playing themselves.
Zheng seemed very open to Jim and Archie coming with....
As shipmates not f buddies
Obviously I didn’t mean that’s where it’s coming from for every person, but I wonder if it’s an element for some people. It’s not a huge leap to make, though. Vico is non-binary, their character is canonically non-binary. I know they had a loooot of input on writing the character, and they’re pretty outspoken about being poly. It’s not unimaginable to guess that they’re also celebrating this part of their queer identity.
I agree. I'm feeling like maybe the actors had a little too much say in their character's direction . . . \[ducks\]
Jim is a fictional character, they are not Vico, and not everyone knows they are poly in real life. Also, I'm a cishet woman and I don't have any problem with anything queer (obviously, I love OFMD) so that includes polyamory, but that's the thing, if it's going there I'm not seeing it. Olu is seen in a lot of scenes with Jim and Archie, but he's just there? And pining for Zheng? If it's going there the lovely atmosphere of Jim/Olu from season 1 should not have disappeared just like that. I'm willing to wait and see but right now I sadly have to admit it feels not well developed and a little waste of time if you loved Jim and Olu together.
I think they meant that people who aren't as immersed in queer community might not pick up the same cues, and might find things odd that are normal in queer circles. Although I disagree that that's the divide between people who do and don't like the J/O/A/Z situation
I've picked up on the cues but kind of wish they would be a bit more transparent even still. And it's not so it can be confirmed, I feel like it's pretty obvious already- the shots of the three are framed in a very particular way. It's just kind of odd to me it feels like this very behind the scenes in the background kind of thing. Olu/Jim felt so much more fleshed out in comparison. Seeing the three together briefly every so often isn't the same. But I understand they only have so much time this season (I do think some of it could have been used better though 👀)
Yea I feel the same.
Idk, I'm queer, trans, and open to being poly, and I wish we'd had more clarity about what's going on. Last season we always knew the status of Jim and Olu's relationship, so I find it odd going from that to this level of ambiguity. I think it's clear that Olu, Jim and Archie are close and often together. I don't think it's clear whether the relationship between any of them is ongoingly sexual/romantic. Archie used "fucked," past tense, to comment on Jim and Olu's relationship when she's talking to Zheng.
Fun fact: in the Spanish dubbed version Archie says "fucks" in present tense, so the Spanish translators decided that they are indeed poly lol.
Didn't Vico translate the script for the Spanish dub and captions last season? 👀
This!!! I honestly don’t even mind Archie being part of their relationship because Olu seems totally cool with it and some more poly representation would be really nice on the show, but I just genuinely don’t see any real connection between Zheng and Olu, it feels really forced and tacked on.
I see more connection w z/o than j/a tbh. Archie has like 4 lines in the entire show lol. I don't mind the poly thing AS much I'd have been okay-er w that if they actually had a scene were jim/olu talked about it. But like s1 we see olu get jealous over jim sarcastically kissing lucius so I just feel like he wouldn't be super ok w a poly relationship but that's just my take on that.
I think people can have different jealousy responses when they're pining for someone than they do once they're in a relationship with them. I'd be delighted for my spouse to be with someone in addition to me, but before we were together, I felt sad seeing them dating other people.
It has nothing to do with screen time. Izzy gets shipped with like 80% of the crew, even the ones he's barely spoken a word to or not even that, just because there's physical chemistry there. Then again, it seems like the common denominator is Con, that man would have chemistry with a damp rag.
Yeah, that’s fair! Tbh I feel like we haven’t really had much time with just Jim and Olu by themselves this season which doesn’t help.
I admire the writers' efforts for more representation, but writing the natural development of a poly relationship between 4 different people into a show with multiple other characters with established arcs of their own is a very ambitious task. Add in the short length and the number of the episodes, and it becomes downright impossible to execute well. I think they bit off more than they can chew. I'd love to see a Jim/Olu/Zheng/Archie arc if we had more time with the show, but it wouldn't be my priority given how many other subplots and characters the show already had before. They could've expanded on them instead of cramming in this new arc that takes up enough screentime to detract from the other plots but not enough screentime to be properly developed
Yea I agree if maybe there was more communication and they actually established the poly thing I'd be more ok w that. But yea it's sloppy/poor writing. They could have given jim/olu a proper reunion. Not included archie in the story at all??? Like honestly what does she add? And make zheng not attracted to olu they could absolutely just be friends.
saw your post months ago,was that allmax caffeine you bought good and legit ??
Lmao yeah but tbh coffee has the same exact effect with less anxiety
You can’t break up if you were never together in the first place. I see Olu and Jim as two people who were in the shit in S1, they bonded over mutual trauma and felt as though they could only trust each other. Them having sex when they reunited felt like an “I’m so happy that you’re okay” moment, not some grand, emotional lovemaking. A platonic relationship between two people who have had sex, but with no awkwardness or hard feelings after the fact is better representation to me than if they just got together. They love each other, they support each other, they would *die* for each other. That’s enough.
Nah olu was in love w Jim that was well established in s1. The shaman confronts him abt it. Nana thinks they're married etc. Interesting you bring up platonic relationships tho bc olu/zheng could have been in a platonic relationship. Instead we have 2 major characters with well established backgrounds (olu/jim) that are now with 2 relatively flat characters that we have little to no background on.
This! My biggest issue is that Archie is soooo flat and boring, and I just can't find it in me to care about her when we have so many other great characters to focus on.
Olu had a crush at best, and Jim was never even confirmed to return those feelings. They both seem *significantly* happier now.
Jim said they missed olu and they fucked??? He told the shaman to shut up when he said he was in love??? And then said "they're just my friend" in a sad tone confirming he was in love with jim???? This is just bad media literacy lol its 100% obvious that they loved each other.
It’s worse media literacy to *insist* that sex equals love!! Friends can love each other! Friends can miss each other! Friends can *fuck* each other!! We don’t get a solid timeline between S1 and 2, but a decent period of time seems to have passed, and if Olu had *legitimately* been in love with Jim, there would have been hard feelings or awkwardness beyond “Oh, Archie? She’s cute!!”. He *liked* Jim, and they’re clearly more than happy with what they’ve got right now, whether they end up a polycule or not.
It wasn't just them having sex that shows they were in love but ok. I'm not going go explain every situation in s1 that shows they loved one another lol. They're more happy w what they have now because of lazy writing.
I think a lot of people in this thread have done a *really* great job with their interpretations of this relationship as well. You seem like you just want to be upset at this point 😬
I think a part of the point is that you can love your friends and even be in love with them in a platonic way. Yeah, they loved each other and they still do. Their relationship just changed, just like in real life it does sometimes. Tbh I do get the impression that it is a depiction of polyamory and I'm glad about that representation, I just find it sad that there are many people who seem to think a little bit narrow when it comes to different depictions of love. There are SO many types of polyamory and metamours, there are queerplatonic relationships... Still agree with some of issues around pacing and the character introductions, but I don't care that much about it. We all were waiting so much for this seasons and maybe we build up too much excitement and too high expectations.
I think a lot more people would be on board if it was clear what's happening. If they're in a queer platonic relationship or a poly relationship, that's great! But last season they used two lines and like 30 seconds of screen time to satisfyingly explain Lucius and Black Pete's open relationship. "Nice! He's drawn most of us." "See? We don't own each other." Bam. It would've been great to get the equivalent of that with the Jim/Olu/Archie situation. BUT I agree that we need to temper our expectations. We all have very strong feelings about these characters and we'll inevitably be disappointed with some choices.
I was surprised to see so many people thinking that Olu and Jim had NOT broken up, I thought it was pretty obvious (and pretty infuriating tbh). Anyway this is what David Jenkins said in an [interview](https://www.gamesradar.com/our-flag-means-death-season-2-showrunner-interview-david-jenkins/): "At the start of the season, level-headed crew member Oluwande (Samson Kayo) and love interest Jim are split between ships. When the pair reunite, they've already set their sights on other shipmates, but there's no bad blood between them. Jenkins explains that he was keen to push boundaries of what exes look like, queering familiar, unhealthier relationship tropes." "That relationship always felt like a friendship that got romantic, and it's fun to play with that. If you do have romantic feelings for a friend, and they meet somebody, you're happy for them because they're happy. But then you're also a little bit like, 'That's mine, they're mine,' so the push and pull that is sweet," he says. "A lot of times you see that, it's about the drama of jealousy, and I like the idea that, actually, they're happy for each other. They just want to see the other person be happy and healthy, and I don't think you see that a lot on television. They usually play more to the angst and the negative drama of it." Honestly it feels like a pretty big departure from season one Olu&Jim and I really don't understand why they decided to go with this storyline, it still doesn't make any sense to me.
Thank you for posting this! I was gonna update OP bc I read that interview a few hours ago but I'm lazy and also trying to stay away from my phone I've had too much screen time today lol. And I agree it doesn't make sense like i said it harms s1 IMO. Like if I were to rewatch s1 w s2 in mind all the jim/olu stuff in that season is now a waste of time. I'm literally dumbfounded at this decision. It really doesn't make sense. Also I think ppl saying they're not broken up are just obsessed w them being poly bc vico is. Ppl in this Fandom seem to really enjoy making up stuff in their minds for characters which is fine but that doesn't mean its cannon. I do see where people are coming from w the poly thing and I would be ok w it of it was executed well but it wasn't. Like I said in OP it genuine pisses me off lol.
I didn't feel that they hurt s1 at all? If anything, the love and acceptance and openness of the two shines more clearly in s2 - Jim and Olu absolutely love each other, Olu accepts Archie and how Archie and Jim found each other on Blackbeard's hellship, Jim wants Olu to figure out what's going on with Zheng Yi Sao and not live with questions and regrets, Jim and Archie love Olu enough to leave a ship they love to be with him. The love is overwhelming. Love can look like a lot of different things, and just because it looks different than what someone might expect doesn't make it not love, or make it a lesser kind of love. I mean, I am not poly, but the ease and gentleness and expansiveness of the way this is being portrayed just makes me so soft - like, I *get* it and I love it. I love that it's being presented in such a loving and non-dramatic way, just like we did with Jim's pronouns. We and they are learning who they are and how they love.
Thank you. As a poly queer person who is so used to never seeing poly joy, posts like this are really demoralizing. Responses like yours brings me joy.
I'm glad 💗 like I said, I'm not poly. But they demoralize me, too - it's just such a beautiful portrayal of a kind of relationship we hardly ever see and of which most of us have a poor understanding. (Also I feel intensely protective of our sapphic snake queen!)
Yes! And I am totally Team Archie. <3
I don't think the post is bashing being poly..they are critiquing the fact that it all felt so rushed. There was no real build up for Olu + Zheng. All of a sudden Olu is willing to drop everything for a person he knew for like..half a day? And then they're all gung ho about sailing off into the sunset with Jim and Archie? It just doesn't add up. If it evolved naturally over the entire season, I'd be all for the poly dynamic.
It just makes me so fucking mad because we have such limited time so when they use so much of it to establish a couple then right away break that couple up, seemingly for good, it makes it feel like all that season 1 time was wasted on them. In real life couples get together and breakup and that is fine but when you only have 5 hours in the first season why waste the time??? We could have spent that season 1 time with Frenchie or someone else.
Absolutely!! They hurt season 1 by doing this in season 2
I'm trying to stay in the positive side of the fandom right now to balance out the negativity we are seeing this week, but I have to agree with this. I wasn't loving this subplot but choose to mostly ignore it and/or wait. But suddenly it took a lot of screen time in episode 7 without making a lot of sense and the leaving Stede was hurtful. And now we are focused on season 2, but yeah, when you think about all the Jim/Olu time in season 1, all the fanart and love and time the pair received, it hurts.
I mean the show is much better than any other show that exists don't get me wrong. But this specific subplot really annoys me
I might have an unpopular opinion here, but I don’t have investment in either Archie nor Zheng within the context of the show. They were brought on too abruptly with not enough character development for me to actually love them. I don’t necessarily need the Jim and Olu ship but I had barely any interest in their other ships. Part of that is because I know Zheng isn’t just gonna be a ship side plot, she’s gonna fuck shit up, but still. I had zero interest in her and Olu I also disagree that Jim and Olu were the secondary romance- id say that was Lucius and Pete
I can see how you could think thay about Pete and lucius but they didn't really have much relationship building. They were kinda messing around and then fell in love which is 100% I love them so much I love how Pete has grown as a person bc his love for lucius and I'm so glad they had a proper reunion in s2 and that they didn't tamper w their dynamic. But we don't really get loads of background on them. We have like 2 episodes devoted to jim/olus relationship. There is build-up throughout the entire first season for them where Pete and lucius it's little bits and pieces. They definitely had more screen time together as a couple (or at least building their relationship together) than Pete and lucius did together. So that's why I say they're the secondary romance couple/story
>The decision to split them up is horrificly lazy writing They haven't been split up.
They actually have.
They actually haven't. The show is depicting a different type of relationship between them. It isn't a traditional one. But the show celebrates and embraces the different way that people experience love, and joy, and relationships. They haven't split up. In fact, they've declared that what they have will last a lifetime.
It's heavily implied in e7 they're splitting up. They have not confirmed anything about a poly relationship. Like you can make up stuff for yourself that's fine but yea I need the actual show to confirm that for me.
>It's heavily implied in e7 they're splitting up. This isn't heavily implied at all. And you didn't argue it was "implied" they were splitting up. You are arguing they *had* split up. And I'm not "making anything up." That's a horrific and offensive thing to imply here, considering the history of fanfic and people literally having to "make things up" in order to have any representation *at all* in media.
You are tho. Like you can imagine them being poly all u want. I'll accept it if the show actually makes it happen but until this point it seems more like zheng and olu are going to be a couple and separate from jim/arcie. Zheng even says "don't push your luck" when jim/arcie ask for their own room. Also to be poly you kinda have to communicate that with the people in said relationship and we have had 0 communication between archie/jim/olu/zheng so it really doesn't work or again it's poor writing. I also do not care about fanfic at all I'm watching the show not reading fanfic.
>You are tho. I'm not tho. I'm not imagining them to be "poly." To be honest, I'm not entirely sure exactly what that *means,* or if that even matters here*.* What I'm seeing on screen is that Archie and Jim and Olu depict a relationship that shows *unconditional love*. That's all *on screen*. I'm not locked into a binary. And its okay that you don't care about fanfic. Because I don't read fanfic either. But I do care about the people who write fanfic, and the people who both read and enjoy fanfic, and it is obvious that you missed my point. Fanfic filled a hole that existed because people couldn't find themselves in the media they consumed. That's a problem with the *media*. And its insulting to imply that people finding space for themselves in the media ecosystem is nothing more than "making things up."
It’s nice to see a poly relationship. I totally get that we don’t know enough about Archie. And honestly, that’s fair. I love Zheng and I’m totally down for Zheng/Oluwande. Tbh. It could’ve just been those three for me(Oluwande/Zheng/Jim).
I found it believable that Jim and Archie connected in the way that they did. Like Frenchie said, they've been living second to second for a while now. Probably assumed Olu was dead. It did seem a little weird given how much build up J & O got in S1 but then, people do change, regardless of romance tropes--- that's s2 all over. I liked that the writers made space for Jim to apparently figure out that they're into women. (and yeah I wish we had a lot more time with Archie.) No wonder the reunion was awkward. Neither Jim nor Olu really knew where the stood on the friend/lover/family spectrum at the moment, just that they matter to each other deeply. I loved seeing Jim approach Zhang at the end. What love! They just want Olu to be happy. and the friends to lovers to family arc seems to be pretty common among my queer friends and I love to see space made for it on screen. "It can be whatever we want it to be"- another motif of the whole season.
They were friends with benefits, not soul mates. They hadn’t seen each other in probably a couple of months and didn’t even know if the other was dead or alive. Were they supposed to just not make new friends or form new bonds? How would you have written the show to keep them together after Ed kidnapped Jim and Olu was left on an island?
Well first off I wouldn't have put archie in the show at all. She has little to no background. Has 0 character development. We have basically no reason to be attached to her. I would have given jim/olu an actual reunion. They were in love in s1 that's extremely obvious and each thought the other was potentially dead and all we get is them blandly talking about towels? Zheng could have simply been friends with Olu bc platonic relationships are fine. OR if there was a push for a poly relationship it could have been between zheng/olu/jim. Instead we get vital time spent on a flat character arc and we are rushing other things that should not have been rushed.
So Jim has been kidnapped by Ed and is in an horrible situation and they are not allowed to have someone who can relate to what they are going through? Not allowed to have a companion or someone to blow off steam with? Jim and Olu are friends, as Jim said they are each others anchor and they love each other, but I don’t think they were in love.
Do all the other crew members not exist to you or???? Jim had other people they could have confided in. Characters that were well established in s1 that we actually have connection to. To just randomly throw a Character into a story then giving that character 0 background is just bad writing! And olu was at least un love with Jim. The shaman bit established that. Like i genuinely didn't think that it would even be a debate?? Did you assume they were just fwb before s2 came out?? Bc they absolutely had in love vibes in s1.
you mean Frenchie, who originally thought Jim being on the ship was bad luck? Or Fang and Izzy, who worked for Black Beard, the person who kidnapped them? Jim had more in common with Archie being they were the only two non males on the ship, so Archie could probably relate to Jim far better than Frenchie, Izzy or Fang. And you can have love for someone without being in love them. And it is possible to get over people you were in love with.
Frenchie and the rest of the crew accepted Jim. The revenge crew were family. Even Jim says they didn't know they were in the good ol days fondly remembering being a part of the revenge crew. Jim could have confided in the crew all together. Where did archie Even come from? How did she meet everyone? We have nothing. No reason to care about the character. She didn't need to exist.
First, just because Frenchie accepted Jim doesn’t mean he could relate to Jim the way Archie could. I suspect Jim was remembering being captained by Stede fondly compared with what was going on with Black Beard. Where did Archie come from? Where did any of the crew come from. What was Roaches back story? Or Black Pete’s? Frenchie, said he used to work in service, but how did become a pirate? Other than Jim, was there an in-depth discussion of how any of the crew ended up on the revenge? No, we just accepted that they got there. Archie may have been on one of Black Beard’s other ships, maybe they picked up more crew members on the Republic of Pirates. Try having a little imagination instead of needing everything spelled out for you.
How does archie relate to jim???????? There is no character/relationship building at ALL. 0. The other crew members were recruited by stede in s1! That's how they got onto the ship it was discussed. How did archie even get onto the ship?? We have no clue. THAT is poor writing!! All those other characters you mentioned are minor characters. It would be fuckin weird as hell if Jim just RANDOMLY got romantic with Roach/Frenchie/anyone else because THERE WAS V LITTLE DEVELOPMENT BETWEEN JIM AND THOSE CHARACTERS. ITS THE SAME REASON WHY IT DOESNT WORK W ARCHIE. We spent all of s1 developing a clear romance between Olu and Jim and then it just gets pushed aside. Its jarring. Itd be like reading a book where 10 capters are dedicated to developing a romance between 2 primary characters and then you turn the page to chapter 11 and suddenly theyre just smitten by 2 side characters. I do not want to have imagination for a show. I'm watching a show that is supposed to give me the plot in a clear and concise manner otherwise it's poor writing. Period.
How much background do we have on Izzy, the Swede, Fang, Roach, Frenchie, Wee John, Black Pete, Buttons, or Lucius? The little we know about the background of those characters before they joined the crew is from one-off lines about sewing dresses or being a servant. Jim, Stede, and Ed are the only characters who get backstory shown on screen.
A lot more than Archie lmao. We got to see them as characters in s1. We have had practically no screen time of Archie thu the entire 2nd season. Shit ivan had such little screen time they cut the actor out of the show and wrote it off that he died when he had more screen time in s1 than Archie had in s2. Like it's an unnecessary add of a character to force a poorly written possibly poly couple?? It adds nothing to the story. And diminished the build up of Teal oranges in s1.
I'm not talking about screen time. I'm commenting on you saying she has no background. She has the same amount of background as 95% of the other characters on the show. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it was badly written.
That kinda goes hand I'm hand tho. Regardless Olu and Jim were very much main characters in s1. Multiple episodes were devoted to the development of Jim and olus relationship. We know them on a personal level. We know little about zheng and even less about Archie. They stuck 2 main characters with side characters. That would be like Stede just deciding he was going to be with steak knife after Ed left. It is POOR writing to put well developed, fleshed out characters with flat side characters that we know very little about and then just expect the audience to accept that.
I like Jim/Archie/Olu but I agree that the Zheng angle of it was forced and them wanting to leave Stede for it was weird and didn’t track for me. I don’t feel like Jim and Olu need to be soulmates but I wasn’t convinced by the story that Zheng was important enough to disrupt everything.
I wish they’d shown Jim & Olu’s grief and acceptance of the others probable death. They thought he was left on an island to die, and were being held prisoner (at least in the beginning). Olu only had Ed’s wanted poster to hope what They were up to-if They survived Ed. Including both characters expressing this wouldn’t have taken much screen time, and it would have made moving on make sense.
I absolutely agree. Also showing izzy/probably the rest of the crew initially enjoying being proper pirates would have been good. It does also bother me that the crew is just suddenly ok w izzy. They were literally going to kill him in s1 by throwing him overboard bc he was being such a bitch. I feel like izzy would have been really enjoying himself at first. His development bothers me too but not quite as much as the j/o thing. But this just solidifies even more for me that they should have not included the other relationships bc they could have spent more time expanding on things that made s1 and s2 more cohesive.
I don’t quite understand why this story line needed to happen either. Jim and Olu’s journey as such a huge part of s1, I just didn’t see the post in introducing new people into their story this soon. I adore Zheng though and she easily could’ve been introduced this series without a romantic story line at all. That’s how strong her presence is. She would’ve made an amazing series long villain. And Archie just feels wasted. Which is unfortunate because the actress is clearly hilarious. She would’ve been better cast in the Mary and Anne episode.
Agreed zheng is such a strong role on her own she doesn't need a romantic interest. It even would have made sense for her teaming up w stede given that ya know her entire fleet was exploded. Idk. It just kinda boils down to wasted time for me. Adding unnecessary stuff to the show that already was moving slightly too fast. So we could have spent that time elsewhere
To me it just really feels like a wasted opportunity to give one of the other characters more screen time... any other crew member could have been with Zheng instead.
I thought the only reason they were together in season one was their long friendship. Olu is calm and likes to talk things out while Jim is quick to act and uses violence more. Plus they are two unique characters, I dont know if their relationship really defined them like Stede and Ed. Let alone their relationship no longer happening ruining the season. I understand some have strong opinions of the two being together, but I dont know if that necessarily should ruin the show for you cause that changed.
It cuts down all of the character/relationship building we saw in s1 So now rewatching s1 knowing that olus plan was to just "go with zheng" why should I care? They absolutely hurt s1 w this decision in my opinion
Too be fair I thought it was weird Jim just hopped to Olu in season 1 imo. I didnt see it. I think their characters stand on their own just fine without being together. I get it its a matter of taste, but i just dont see it ruining season 1 as their being in a relationship was also a journey in their still existing friendship
What? They were together before they were on the revenge??? Olu helped Jim kill Jackie's favorite husband??????????????????
They were friends before being on the Revenge, not in a relationship. Only becoming a thing later while on the Revenge. I understand you feel very strongly about them being together but to call it “ruining” season one of the show is subjective to you.
Obviously it's subjective it my opinion. Plenty of ppl agree and ppl can disagree that's how opinions work. We find out v early on in s1 that olu has feelings for Jim Like literally in episode 2. Yea they hadn't been romantic but the feelings were there. That was established early on. We spent so much time building their relationship in s1 for it to be cut down by side characters that yea it ruins s1. We could have been focusing on Pete/lucius more or any other characters. It hurts rewatch value for s1.
Agree. I've seen many people say that Jim and Olu are just "best friends who fucked" and now they're both interested in different people and wanna try something new, but the relationship they had in season one was definitely more profound than that. Their new "relationships" are completely rushed, which doesn't fit at all with how this show has previously handled relationships, that were always well built and believable
Absolutely. It really makes me wonder what ppls opinion on their relationship was before s2 came out bc I feel like it was well established that they loved each other romantically. It really discounts all the build up in s1 (which is why I hold the opinion that this season hurts s1) I just feel like ppl have adjusted their expectations for s2 to accept this odd black and white poly relationship. Ppl are happy for representation, but it's poor representation of a poly relationship in my opinion. It's just thrown together 0 communication which doesn't work in a poly relationship.
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Yes I love her! She's adorable and completely bad ass. She killed a man w some SLAPS UGH she's so cool. 😵 I feel like Jim would be more willing to let go than olu tho? I mean I don't feel like either of them would b super willing given all of s1. (It actually shocks me that some ppl are claiming that they were fwb in s1?? Like it's so clearly set up that they're romantically interested/in love) but Jim has always been more reserved and was more willing to let olu go to continue their hunt for the dudes that murdered their family. Where olu got wasted and gave the room away bc he missed them so much. Idk I feel like there are loads of ways this could have been handled better. I feel like the j/o reunion was sooooo disappointing given all the relationship building in s1. The fact that we have 2 major characters from s1 just randomly getting into equally flat lifeless relationships in s2 is just insulting to me lol. Ppl keep bringing up they're different characters due to "trauma" but to me it feels like we had too much push from Vico (Jim's actor) for a poly thing and the writers just caved. So they poorly included what could be potentially considered a poly relationship. Which again to me is insulting bc now poly ppl are basically given a "kill your gays" treatment where (so far) they're given a slight bit of hinted inclusion that's black and white/poorly executed. It feels forced and I dislike it v much lol.
I can’t shake the feeling that they pushed the polyamory idea because Vico is polyamorous in real life and they thought it’d be neat to draw from their personal experience. Nothing inherently bad with that but I feel like Vico is bleeding a bit too much into Jim (even though I really like them as a person and think they’re really cool!! So not a bad thing per se but I only see Vico in Jim in season 2, I don’t see Jim at all anymore if that makes sense.)
I absolutely agree w this. So many ppl bring up that they're NB and Poly and like yea that's fantastic for them I just do not care at all about their personal life??? They're playing a character not themselves. They're an actor not a writer. Jim feels like a drastically different character between s1 and s2 and ppl just write it off bc "trauma" but that's just more proof of lazy writing for me bc nothing was discussed in the show about that. And if anything trauma just makes ppl more reserved (normally) and we saw trauma worked that way for Jim in s1. It took them years to let themselves be with olu. But they know archie for 2 months? And they're just totally comfortable w her? It's bizarre. And again I have no hatred for poly ppl they can do what they want but without communication shit doesn't work. We see that in s1 (every time someone doesn't communicate bad shit happens to them) and obviously we see that irl. So it just doesn't work for me. They knew they were gonna have less time in s2 they shouldn't have added a flat dynamic that doesn't rly go anywhere bc there was no time to communicate what's happening. They could have spent that time deepening other characters/more ed/stede stuff.
This! I mentioned the other day that it feels like they're just going through a checklist with the whole Jim/Archie/Olu/Zheng thing. Like it's super rushed and *very* imbalanced, and confusing. I personally see Jim and Olu as queer platonic at most now. Even if *Jim*/*Vico* is poly, Olu and Zheng are being written as a closed pairing in that last episode, which makes it even more confusing. Also, Jim was my favorite character on season one and I was wondering why I'm starting to lose interest in them but I think you nailed it. I'm not really seeing Jim as a character anymore.
At this point Jim is just Vico. They put too much of themselves into the character. Which honestly shouldn't have been allowed. They're an actor. They act well. They're not a writer they should not have that much say in the character that was already well developed in s1
I understand why you are sad and disappointed. S1 ended with Jim and Olu growing their relationship from friendship and a sense of being family for each other and turning that into a romantic pairing. S2 opens with each of them finding new romantic partners after being parted for only a few months. That was quite a surprise for me, too but it is something that happens in real life. Each of the new couples feels authentic to me. I only wish we’d had more of an introduction to Archie. We got to see a shorthand version of how Olu and Zheng met, but not how Jim and Archie met so their relationship just appeared from nowhere which made it seem jarring.
Jim & Archie's relationship feels like trauma bonding to me, personally. It felt realistic because of their shared trauma for those months. I hope the show goes into that a little more, maybe in season 3, and centers that relationship/polycule a little more.
FYI, a trauma bond is the bond that forms between an abuser and their victim. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/trauma-bonding/
I think there's a lot of truth in saying that they were trauma bonding. I just wonder for now if Archie will even be a character in S3. I hope so because I'm enjoying the character and the performer (Madeleine Sami) quite a lot. I can't tell if Zheng is going to carry over into S3, either.
FYI, a trauma bond is the bond that forms between an abuser and their victim. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/trauma-bonding/
That obviously wouldn't apply between Jim and Archie then. More like them both being united by being traumatized by Blackbeard.
it doesn’t seem to me like they’re ‘split up’? i mean just because their relationship dynamic is no longer singular and has changed because of the separation doesn’t mean that they’re ‘split up’ tbh
All of this 100%. It makes 0 sense. It’s just bad writing.
Could have broken up Jim & Olu if they had more time. MAYBE if there wss only 1 love interest. But there was nom of that and it just took too much time and made the already short season feel MORE crammed together
As a queer polyam person I must be watching a different show because I never saw them split.
If zheng was against giving Jim and Archie their own room I find it hard to believe that she would be comfortable sharing a room with them. Maybe we'll get some more development in s3 I doubt we will this season. But yea it just doesn't seem in character from what we have seen from her
its the way they got rid of the nblm rep for a straight couple 😁
Honestly, this is the best critique I’ve seen so far and I actually agree. But I’m so hung up on Ed and Stede that I’m just happy to see that
It makes me even more invested in ed/stede to be honest. They could have used that time to focus on them more. The j/a/o/z thing is just SOOOO forced for me. Everything in s1 felt so natural so it feels wrong that this season is so rushed. And I get it max sucks they 100% deserved more time but that wasn't reality so they should have expanded on the things that were already there and worked in s1 and if they wanted to do a poly thing maybe expand more on that in s3 if they have time.
Im holding out hope for a poly situation
I felt like what Archie has that Olu didn’t was Bewbs.
yikes!
Like that’s it. I would like to see more personality
You're not wrong.
Wait, I thought Jim, Olu, Zheng and Archie were going to end up a polycule. That’s the direction I thought we were headed! Am I wrong?? Oh no!
Yeah, they put way too much in S1 to have it not pay off in S2. I personally like their new pairings better though. Even after their romance in S1, I still saw J/O as friends who always need each other’s support instead of a love that could possibly turn sour. I think Zheng and Olu also have an amazing natural chemistry. Not as much of a Archie and Jim fan, but do see Archie as more of a person Jim would need romantically, meaning not tied down.