I think if Blizzard hadn’t released this info no one would say anything since she hasn’t been getting the same outcry as Pharah nor like when she was released.
But I wonder if it means more people will try her which with a high pick rate and winrate could lead to nerf.
Cause I’m thinking about the Brig nerf in like season 8 I think. No one seemed to be complaining about Brig, and overall consensus was that she held a high winrate rate because people usually only pick her for certain counters and did well and the few one tricks.
I think the only thing people get annoyed with Illari is her pylon which I doubt will ever really stopped being complained about
I mean the pick and win rates don't really track with that from what I can see (51% and 1.5% is what overbuff has her at rn) and purely from playing the game I find it extremely difficult to believe anybody out there is struggling to hit such a massive target in an iteration of the game where hitscan players are launching watermelons at enemies but hey if it indirectly means I'll see less Mercy players in my games they can nerf whatever they want lmfao
You’re looking at comp + quickplay I’m assuming. For strictly comp it’s at 54.65%, and from plat+ it gets even more ridiculous, notably with 65% in Diamond and 69% in GM.
She is a legitimate problem, and she’s not that easy to deal with with hitscans because of damage falloff plus the inevitable pharmercy pocket.
I'm asuming you meant to type 57% in GM because that's what the site lists for GM and up in the last month, notably with a pick rate below 0.5%. The highest ranked player they listed played 19 games with her all season. At some point you're strictly just angry at YZNSA. If anything this is indicative of a character like Illari or Symm who are entirely useless in 90% of games but dominant with the perfect combination of map, team comp, and enemy team comp leading to hilarious figures like a Symm being in a terrible state right now but still having a win rate in the 70s in high ladder.
This isn't one of the "niche" hero picks with high win rates situations, it's more of a "people didn't realize how good she was since rework/changes until super recently" situation. Meta discovered + hype, so to speak. Pharah is dominating at the moment, Ashe and Cass falloff damage basically just tickles her since falloff wasn't adjusted when the health pools were changed, the armor changes help her a lot, her projectiles are faster and movement is way better. People found out about it and started locking her really hard this past week. It's a very very recent development
She can be another dps, but that's kinda her thing. She's the "Fine. I'll do it myself." support. What she doesn't do is provide almost any utility to enable your tank and dps and she doesn't do well when the fight is brought right up to her face. Honestly, I feel like if the playerbase got more familiar with her rather straightforward kit and its weaknesses, then she would be more of a pick only for poke-based comps.
>She's the "Fine. I'll do it myself." support. What she doesn't do is provide almost any utility to enable your tank and dps and she doesn't do well when the fight is brought right up to her face.
Never looked at it that way, but she's attack-based Lifeweaver then.
Haha, buffing Weaver's thorns will never make him meta-worthy then, cause Illari just does it better xD
* As a unique utility, they should really just make Weaver thorns homing projectiles like Halo Needler. I want that so bad.
And worse yet, imo, Baptiste is the better "Do it myself" support. A good Bap understands his hopping is 99% as effective at making him hard to hit as Pharah's flight. If he can click heads, he always has the HP advantage with lamp and surge.
Will be interesting to see whether Bap or Illari gets nerfed.
She’s genuinely the only support I can play that feels like she has any impact against Zarya. You can consistently burst her enough that she’s too afraid to just walk in and kill everyone
I do this every match on illari rn -> 80% WR.
I kinda want to make a post about this at some point because she is just the better cassidy. I dont think shes OP i think damage hitscans are just underpowered
What you’re seeing is that damage supports = 6v5 = high win rate. I do the same thing in Lucio and 80% winrate all the way to M1.
You’ll see a similar impact if you did that with bap, Ana, Lucio, or Moira ( at lower tiers at least).
If you’re trying to win a game and say your dps are 10% worse than the enemy. After 10 minutes your team is underperforming by 2-3k damage. But if you dps support and pump out 50-100% the damage of a dps, you are now over performing on dps by ~30% or 3-4k damage despite having the worse team.
Now you’ve put extra pressure on both their supps and dps to be better than they usually play.
If anything hitscans have been getting babied ever since Season 9 dropped.
Health buffs and DPS passive have been the greatest thing to happen to most hitscans, whilst screwing over or having little positive effect on projectile/beam heroes.
Cree needs to hit 6 consequtive headshots on an airborne pharah to kill her, without healing. and he is currently the best hitscan in the entire game. yes, hitscans are ass.
They are getting outclassed by supports on long range. Their damage fall off is to much I have better stats on illaris than on my main cassidy. She almost equal the dmg, has longer range, bigger projectile size, better mobility, more ammo…
Not sure what im getting downvoted for but im hard stuck low master/high diamond with cass and got easily to gm with illaris at 75%+ winrate.
Her pylon was overbuffed and will lose either the bonus healing or health.
…that said I take a bit less issue with Illi having a 55% WR then I do with if most other characters did. Her PR is extremely low, and much like Sym or Torb, she’s a defensive/KotH specialist so she’s being picked into perfect scenarios and not used the bulk of the time.
I still strongly disagree with the balance philosophy of character being entirely broken on some maps being balanced out by being bad on others. That's terrible design.
It’s kinda inevitable in a hero shooter with like 40+ unique heroes though. Some will be better on some maps, some will be better against some enemies, some will be more popular then others.
If a character isn’t popular and is a specialist, they will usually have a higher WR then the rest of the cast. It’s not an Illi exclusive trait either, if Widow wasn’t so incredibly popular she’d share the same fate.
It’s inevitable and a core part of Overwatch, so disagreement with the design decision is pointless, and it’s impossible to avoid unless everyone is clones and all maps are the same. What we can disagree about is at which numbers it becomes an immediate issue, and I think 55% is the high end of acceptable in that specific situation.
You can’t really avoid it. Like, Widow being dominant, especially on maps like Circuit, Havana, and Junkertown, was because those maps don’t have a lot of cover on certain points. Her design and strength comes forward in open maps with longer sightlines. Put her in Dorado 3rd and the problems aren’t hard to see.
I don't agree with the pick rate info you are saying. She's in almost every match of mine, her pick rate has gone through the roof with her recent buffs.
Conformation bias. Illari has the 2nd lowest Support PR the last month.
She may be showing up more frequently in your matches due to you being an Echo main, and support ranged hitscan options are limited… but it certainly isn’t “every match.” Additionally her “this month” PR is only slightly higher then her “last 3 months” PR, so while it is trending up, “gone through the roof” is seriously channeling Chicken Little.
i think that's what it is, because i've been maining illari and ever since runasapi came out, it's almost the one map i get the other support instalocking her.
Things also need to settle down. This is why devs don't like being reactive to data in a hurry. Especially when the community feedback doesn't match with the data (People aren't really complaining about Illari or Reaper despite both of them having 55% WR, devs don't need to make any hasty changes).
Generally when a Hero sees an instant jump in Winrate after buffs then that Winrate tends to simmer down in a few weeks as meta settles down and players learn to play against the new buffed version of that Hero.
What is her pick rate, though? I barely see illari in my games. When I stack with my low elo friends and get silver/gold games illari isnt there. If I solo queue and get diamond/gm games, illari isn't there. So is her win rate going up because she's not picked as often and the few people playing her play her well?
> If I solo queue and get diamond/gm games, illari isn't there.
Wait what? In my Diamond/GM games I see illari constantly.
Are you on console by any chance? Could be she's less popular on console.
I am on console. Generally, it's always a Lucio/Kiri combo or Ana/Bap combo. Lots of mercy, especially with the pink mercy re-release, and my rough games will have a Zen and Lifeweaver. But Illari? I only see her if the enemy team is in a stack.
Makes sense. Illari gets far more value on PC with the mouse accuracy. And she doesn't have any fun mechanics so there's no motivation to force yourself to play her.
Wild, I get illari every game, I’m high plat so have pretty much same experience with you and queued with gold/silver friends all weekend.
Every second POTG was her Ulting also
give it a big longer to decide tbh. i don't think she's obnoxious to go against like pharah or kiriko is, but her pylon feels quite strong right now. people are just starting to realize the value of it so i'm waiting until midseason to really think about it.
she's pretty situational still from what i've seen, but in the maps she works in she really excels.
My thoughts on illiari is Pylon needs a nerf and her healing in her gun needs a buff
Pylon for me is not a fun or useful ability to use or play against it shouldn't stay up forever because unlike torb or sym turrets if you are in their line of sight they are also in yours meaning that it interacts with you and your can interact with it pylon isn't like that so it needs a up time nerf. As for using pylon it SUCKS like if its broken or on cooldown illiari feels like half a character she needs more healing ammo in her gun and a nerf from 115 or 105 healing to like 55-65 and or a change that slows how much healing ammo you use if your not hitting a target (some teammates just don't make healing them easy). I don't wanna rely on pylon to provide passive value i rather have my healing be engaging and something i have to manage and pylon is there for if i need extra healing for my teammates to save like someone by using both at the same time or maybe let it heal someone while I heal someone else if my other support is dead or even if i want to take a position and damage for a bit and need a bit of healing myself
I don’t really get why they upped the health in the first place. It was so much less disruptive when a Reinhardt or whatever could just fire strike the damn thing and move on.
Yea but then they need to completely rework it imho. It's nuts if stuff like a simple firestrike just break it. Then it's useless like the last couple of seasons.
What is bad pylon positioning? I did not even say or show where I put it not even said im an Illari player LMFAO.
If you think you can put the pylon constantly behind cover or say impossible to destroy for the enemy you are just deluded. The rein just steps forward, shoots a firestrike and shields going back. That's why I'm saying 1 firestrike is too easy.
There are maps like koth where it's easier but many maps where it gets destroyed easily. Leave me alone with your low rank opinion.
The devs obviously agree with me on that and buffed the pylon.
A simple firestrike? The rein has to extend past the choke, drop shield to firestrike, blowing half of his ranged ability for the actual fight he intends to walk into and leaving himself vulnerable to al the cc the world has waiting for him, only then he can begin engaging. If he has to use both firestrikes to take it out, he is basically useless for the next 7ish seconds and his engage wasn't worth a thing. A well positioned pylon requires the rein to commit either positioning and/or cooldown suicide to take it out. Personally I think the pylon health should break with one firestrike, but I agree that it should actually just be reworked instead because illiari is cool but pylon is kinda lame
I play Illari every day and thats not how it works. If I see anyone getting los on the pylon I immediately cancel it and replace it in another position which they they don't have los on. I don't even care how much hp the devs will give to the pylon because I never let anyone getting near it.
Treat it like Sym Turrets. Fragile, fairly low cooldown, but pretty significant impact. Can split it so they’re only high impact in numbers, or leave it just one.
Pay to win launch Mauga and Sojourn didn't even crack 54% and those were seasons where not having the battlepass was legitimately reportable. Characters have to be wildly mistuned to end up outside of 2-3% from 50 with as many data points as a game like this would have lol
Pharah have 58% Blizzard say she is fine, Rein have 62% again fine, Winton have 58% fine too, DVA, JQ, ORISA, SIgma,DF,Ram,Rog,Mauga 52-55% fine too.. Reaper 55% fine by Blizzard too.
Support have 55% nerf to hell xDDD
I’ve picked up Illari since the update. I went from never playing her to playing her all the time and getting crazy good results with both healing/dps. POTG all the time with her ult. As much fun as I’m having and it being a nice break from Ana, she’ll definitely have a nerf incoming. No way they’ll let a supp get away with this for too long, not with how much people hate supps being good. Granted, she is a bit too good. In true blizzard fashion she’ll probably be nerfed into the ground and go back to not being viable again and the rotation will go back to kiri/Ana/bap.
I used to like playing Illari and I really just want them to revert the entire pylon change. 125 hp is just broken and we already know that but the lower self heal just ruins her best playstyle so it just made her less fun.
I have a few potential options in mind for nerfs to her, but I feel like they aren't likely to happen and I wouldn't want more than one at a time because it would be pretty easy to kill her viability entirely. I also feel that much of her ability to win is based on how the game is playing right now in that it devalues healing comparative to damage and utility. Dive and mobility tanks aren't able to take space well without being punished and Sig it very viable which is the tank she synergizes best with (honestly the only one that she pairs particularly well with). That said these are the areas I would look at:
Projectile size nerf, Time or heal quantity limit on pylon, overall damage nerf. I personally really like the idea of limiting how much the pylon can heal per placement. It makes Illari players have to actively consider their healing and not just act as another DPS, but lets be real having played with enough Illari's she'd play essentially the same.
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LOL. Funny how they supposedly look at data, and then get pedantic about the literal percentage point.
Then they do wild balance changes again and again to no avail.
The only problem I have is that sweeping winrates aren't indicative of whether or not a character *needs* to be changed.
A more important stat might be winrates in a given skill pool, then you have to ask the important question of why it is the way it is and how you could possibly balance that in a productive way across all skill levels. You'd want to make a change to flatten a character out on a high skill level without having a harmful impact on skill levels below that, i.e. making a change that affects a character at high levels of play without making the character inaccessible/overpowered on a casual level.
Just saying the character has a 55% win rate on its own doesn't tell us anything. ***Where*** are those wins happening? Where are those losses happening? 55% sounds pretty good, do they even want to close the gap? So many questions.
making that information public will likely drop her winrate because she's pmuch the #1 elo terrorist in the hands of the majority of support players
"i'm the lowest ranked player in the lobby and 2 ranks lower on dps than on support. gotta lock illari, i hear she's got a high winrate"
My thoughts?
She’s insanely boring to play. She’s very good, but she doesn’t FEEL powerful when I play her. She feels so stiff.
So I don’t care if she’s slightly op tbh. People who play her are mashocistic
Why the hell does she have such a devastating ult lmao. I feel like everything about her is fine until I see her drop 2 4ks in a match its just so out of character compared to the average support
idk i think shes in a pretty good spot right now. i dont think she needs any changes at the moment. if they do, id hope they reduce her gun damage ever so slightly but maybe buff the cooldown of her spinny jump about a second.
Yes, especially for a character that barely gets picked anyway. Also, she's not at 55, she's at 53.7 on PC comp.
Higher than average is not an indication of OP-Ness. Come back to me when she is among the most commonly played heroes in the game and as amassing an ACTUAL 55 or higher percent winrate.
You seem to not understand winrates. 55 winrate is really high.
Edit: lol saw your other posts. You clearly have no clue about the matter or even simple statistics but act allknowing and trying to educate other people. Jesus.
Just some info: There are 2 teams. If both have an Illari the winrate will be 50% for that Match (cause 1 of them loses while the other wins). So a winrate >50% means Illari wins more games than she loses if the losing team doesn't have one. Pushing the winrate to 55% is really high.
I don’t have an opinion about whether or not Illari is correctly balanced. That being said, your representation of these statistics follows a classic slippery slope logical fallacy. You correctly note if she has a winrate above 50%, she thus wins more than loses in match ups against other supports. That statement neglects to account for the fact that her pick rate in comparison to other supports is significantly lower. Given that is the case, in tandem with her niche utility on maps that favor her pylon mechanic, her winrate necessarily should be higher than other supports if we assume that she is only picked in scenarios where she is favored. Since we have no way of accounting for where and when she is picked, it’s unreasonable to conclude that she outperforms other supports *in every case*. You can use the pick rate to give project a rough estimation of how many compositions/maps she fits well into. All that being said, it would be equally a slippery slope to use the premise of her winrate to conclude that she isn’t overpowered either. Just because we have a rough idea that she isn’t over represented in compositional decisions of the player base, we couldn’t reasonably rule out the potential that she’s a sleeper waiting to be discovered either. Pharah’s recent spike in performance and pick rate likely mirrors that statistical trend. Her winrate could imply that trend. The issue comes down to the fact that her winrate in isolation only lets us know that she works better than other healers in the scenarios she is picked, and we have no conclusive data to shed any light on the conditions of her pick rate, upon which her winrate is dependent.
Her ally healing needs to drop down or HP needs to reduce, it's **too easy** to get healing value to by good pylon placement
Edit: it's crazy people think 50% healing ally buff isn't a bit too much. The consequence of this is also Illari can farm ultimate significantly faster.
Everytime illari has had a high win rate is when she's been overtuned
No it's not silly, win rates are a direct reflection of a characters current strength
Yes but you fail to understand how that translates here
Your own winrate being 55%? That's alright, nothing crazy
55% being the AVERAGE winrate for everyone using that character? Not good, it means that, on average, they're winning more simply for using that character, it doesn't take a genius to see the issue there
50% winrate across the board for every character is impossible, and winrates do not take into account how and when characters are being used. For instance, Symmetra has LONG had the highest winrrate for the vast majority of Overwatch's existence, but she is considered underpowered because of her extreme map and comp dependency.
Also, according to Overbuff, Illari is at under 53% over the past month (on PC in comp) and is the second least played support hero just ahead of Brig.
Yeah but they also said that Hog is deemed as more frustrating and feels less fair at 54% whereas at 60% Rein which they considered high doesn’t get many complaint.
I watched the video with Spilo talking to Alec last week, but think Alec went into detail on their ideal ranges.
Hm, checking her HPS did go from 30 to 40, so maybe 35 is what will see next? or maybe they’ll slow the burst?
Which would you prefer?
Slower burst at 40hps, or Same speed at 35, Faster at 30?
The fact pylon can be placed in spots that are nearly unkillable isn't exactly a skill that should be heavily rewarded. Want it to be more skillful limit it's healing output, uptime or range.
Or maybe fix those spots instead?
Pylon will never be that skillful outside of placement. It is a pylon after all. Not like the player has much control over it besides placement and recalling it.
ah okay, i can see how some tinkering in those areas would make more than placement rewarding. i doubt they’ll mess with uptime because no else’s turrets have one.
so if it were like range would it be the closer to pylon the better the healing out put and the further the lower it is be what you mean by that? so risk it getting eliminated easier for bigger heals compared to safer spot but less heals would make sense to you?
I don’t play much Illari and in metal ranks people ignore them half them time lmao
I mean it's too little effort for too much value.
There's maps when you can't acess Pylon at all. Free 3rd healer
Not that hard to press E on a spot that enemies don't have LOS on a choke.
It isn't a "free third healer", it IS Illari's main source of healing. Her beam runs out fast and has a recharge that takes awhile in a fight, not to mention a ridiculously short range (which isn't helped by the fact that she's supposed to be long distance and poke)
Just don't run out the healing and you don't take a while to recharge.
It IS a third healer anyways. That's all what pylon does.
Illari's healing beam is HIGHER than Mercy's beam for example, it heals more than 2X Mercy's healing beam heals.
Why you think that's "ridiculously short"?
No, I said, "If you play well, you should be rewarded."
Your statement is like those "Just aim for the head" comments that people make when it comes to playing Widow better, as if that's any sort of solid advice.
If they nerf Ilari i nerf their life.
Is a perfectly balanced. You need aim to play her succesfully, she only has her pylons and charged shots, ult is good but lets you vulnerable and can be cleansed with a few abilities.
However people struggle to flank to destroy the pylon.
I think if Blizzard hadn’t released this info no one would say anything since she hasn’t been getting the same outcry as Pharah nor like when she was released. But I wonder if it means more people will try her which with a high pick rate and winrate could lead to nerf. Cause I’m thinking about the Brig nerf in like season 8 I think. No one seemed to be complaining about Brig, and overall consensus was that she held a high winrate rate because people usually only pick her for certain counters and did well and the few one tricks. I think the only thing people get annoyed with Illari is her pylon which I doubt will ever really stopped being complained about
Are people complaining about Pharah rn? Lol
Daily
Fair enough that's hilarious
she was great after her rework a while ago now people are picking up on it and are definitely going to get her nerfed so is the cycle
I mean the pick and win rates don't really track with that from what I can see (51% and 1.5% is what overbuff has her at rn) and purely from playing the game I find it extremely difficult to believe anybody out there is struggling to hit such a massive target in an iteration of the game where hitscan players are launching watermelons at enemies but hey if it indirectly means I'll see less Mercy players in my games they can nerf whatever they want lmfao
You’re looking at comp + quickplay I’m assuming. For strictly comp it’s at 54.65%, and from plat+ it gets even more ridiculous, notably with 65% in Diamond and 69% in GM. She is a legitimate problem, and she’s not that easy to deal with with hitscans because of damage falloff plus the inevitable pharmercy pocket.
I'm asuming you meant to type 57% in GM because that's what the site lists for GM and up in the last month, notably with a pick rate below 0.5%. The highest ranked player they listed played 19 games with her all season. At some point you're strictly just angry at YZNSA. If anything this is indicative of a character like Illari or Symm who are entirely useless in 90% of games but dominant with the perfect combination of map, team comp, and enemy team comp leading to hilarious figures like a Symm being in a terrible state right now but still having a win rate in the 70s in high ladder.
For PC it’s a 1.03% pick rate in GM with a 69.70% win rate for season 11. Not sure what you’re looking at.
yeah the guy is stupid
Damage falloff on hitscan with health changes make a really good pharah next to impossible to kill I swear
This isn't one of the "niche" hero picks with high win rates situations, it's more of a "people didn't realize how good she was since rework/changes until super recently" situation. Meta discovered + hype, so to speak. Pharah is dominating at the moment, Ashe and Cass falloff damage basically just tickles her since falloff wasn't adjusted when the health pools were changed, the armor changes help her a lot, her projectiles are faster and movement is way better. People found out about it and started locking her really hard this past week. It's a very very recent development
Pharah is objectively meta right now, even among pros. Congratulations, you've outed yourself as living under a lot rock lol
One time I saw one with insane damage beating both my dps on players. Kinda scary but of course they must really understand the character
She can be another dps, but that's kinda her thing. She's the "Fine. I'll do it myself." support. What she doesn't do is provide almost any utility to enable your tank and dps and she doesn't do well when the fight is brought right up to her face. Honestly, I feel like if the playerbase got more familiar with her rather straightforward kit and its weaknesses, then she would be more of a pick only for poke-based comps.
>She's the "Fine. I'll do it myself." support. What she doesn't do is provide almost any utility to enable your tank and dps and she doesn't do well when the fight is brought right up to her face. Never looked at it that way, but she's attack-based Lifeweaver then. Haha, buffing Weaver's thorns will never make him meta-worthy then, cause Illari just does it better xD * As a unique utility, they should really just make Weaver thorns homing projectiles like Halo Needler. I want that so bad. And worse yet, imo, Baptiste is the better "Do it myself" support. A good Bap understands his hopping is 99% as effective at making him hard to hit as Pharah's flight. If he can click heads, he always has the HP advantage with lamp and surge. Will be interesting to see whether Bap or Illari gets nerfed.
She’s genuinely the only support I can play that feels like she has any impact against Zarya. You can consistently burst her enough that she’s too afraid to just walk in and kill everyone
I do this every match on illari rn -> 80% WR. I kinda want to make a post about this at some point because she is just the better cassidy. I dont think shes OP i think damage hitscans are just underpowered
What you’re seeing is that damage supports = 6v5 = high win rate. I do the same thing in Lucio and 80% winrate all the way to M1. You’ll see a similar impact if you did that with bap, Ana, Lucio, or Moira ( at lower tiers at least). If you’re trying to win a game and say your dps are 10% worse than the enemy. After 10 minutes your team is underperforming by 2-3k damage. But if you dps support and pump out 50-100% the damage of a dps, you are now over performing on dps by ~30% or 3-4k damage despite having the worse team. Now you’ve put extra pressure on both their supps and dps to be better than they usually play.
> i think damage hitscans are just underpowered Are you sure the game you've been playing is called "Overwatch" and not something else?
If anything hitscans have been getting babied ever since Season 9 dropped. Health buffs and DPS passive have been the greatest thing to happen to most hitscans, whilst screwing over or having little positive effect on projectile/beam heroes.
Cree needs to hit 6 consequtive headshots on an airborne pharah to kill her, without healing. and he is currently the best hitscan in the entire game. yes, hitscans are ass.
They are getting outclassed by supports on long range. Their damage fall off is to much I have better stats on illaris than on my main cassidy. She almost equal the dmg, has longer range, bigger projectile size, better mobility, more ammo… Not sure what im getting downvoted for but im hard stuck low master/high diamond with cass and got easily to gm with illaris at 75%+ winrate.
If pylon gets nerfed then the healing beam should get buffed.
No. Just nerf
her beam is awful lmao
It’s so awful. People keep being like, “people won’t die with the beam on them,” and I’m like, “ok so that’s a lie.”
Her pylon was overbuffed and will lose either the bonus healing or health. …that said I take a bit less issue with Illi having a 55% WR then I do with if most other characters did. Her PR is extremely low, and much like Sym or Torb, she’s a defensive/KotH specialist so she’s being picked into perfect scenarios and not used the bulk of the time.
I still strongly disagree with the balance philosophy of character being entirely broken on some maps being balanced out by being bad on others. That's terrible design.
It’s kinda inevitable in a hero shooter with like 40+ unique heroes though. Some will be better on some maps, some will be better against some enemies, some will be more popular then others. If a character isn’t popular and is a specialist, they will usually have a higher WR then the rest of the cast. It’s not an Illi exclusive trait either, if Widow wasn’t so incredibly popular she’d share the same fate. It’s inevitable and a core part of Overwatch, so disagreement with the design decision is pointless, and it’s impossible to avoid unless everyone is clones and all maps are the same. What we can disagree about is at which numbers it becomes an immediate issue, and I think 55% is the high end of acceptable in that specific situation.
You can’t really avoid it. Like, Widow being dominant, especially on maps like Circuit, Havana, and Junkertown, was because those maps don’t have a lot of cover on certain points. Her design and strength comes forward in open maps with longer sightlines. Put her in Dorado 3rd and the problems aren’t hard to see.
I don't agree with the pick rate info you are saying. She's in almost every match of mine, her pick rate has gone through the roof with her recent buffs.
Conformation bias. Illari has the 2nd lowest Support PR the last month. She may be showing up more frequently in your matches due to you being an Echo main, and support ranged hitscan options are limited… but it certainly isn’t “every match.” Additionally her “this month” PR is only slightly higher then her “last 3 months” PR, so while it is trending up, “gone through the roof” is seriously channeling Chicken Little.
I think a lot are picking her out of boredom and curiosity most aren’t that good I see
My theory is that her map has made people remember that Illari does in fact exist and are playing her more because of it.
i think that's what it is, because i've been maining illari and ever since runasapi came out, it's almost the one map i get the other support instalocking her.
Things also need to settle down. This is why devs don't like being reactive to data in a hurry. Especially when the community feedback doesn't match with the data (People aren't really complaining about Illari or Reaper despite both of them having 55% WR, devs don't need to make any hasty changes). Generally when a Hero sees an instant jump in Winrate after buffs then that Winrate tends to simmer down in a few weeks as meta settles down and players learn to play against the new buffed version of that Hero.
What is her pick rate, though? I barely see illari in my games. When I stack with my low elo friends and get silver/gold games illari isnt there. If I solo queue and get diamond/gm games, illari isn't there. So is her win rate going up because she's not picked as often and the few people playing her play her well?
> If I solo queue and get diamond/gm games, illari isn't there. Wait what? In my Diamond/GM games I see illari constantly. Are you on console by any chance? Could be she's less popular on console.
I am on console. Generally, it's always a Lucio/Kiri combo or Ana/Bap combo. Lots of mercy, especially with the pink mercy re-release, and my rough games will have a Zen and Lifeweaver. But Illari? I only see her if the enemy team is in a stack.
Makes sense. Illari gets far more value on PC with the mouse accuracy. And she doesn't have any fun mechanics so there's no motivation to force yourself to play her.
Wild, I get illari every game, I’m high plat so have pretty much same experience with you and queued with gold/silver friends all weekend. Every second POTG was her Ulting also
give it a big longer to decide tbh. i don't think she's obnoxious to go against like pharah or kiriko is, but her pylon feels quite strong right now. people are just starting to realize the value of it so i'm waiting until midseason to really think about it. she's pretty situational still from what i've seen, but in the maps she works in she really excels.
A nerf would be really unnecessary considering she's the second least picked support and very situational
My thoughts on illiari is Pylon needs a nerf and her healing in her gun needs a buff Pylon for me is not a fun or useful ability to use or play against it shouldn't stay up forever because unlike torb or sym turrets if you are in their line of sight they are also in yours meaning that it interacts with you and your can interact with it pylon isn't like that so it needs a up time nerf. As for using pylon it SUCKS like if its broken or on cooldown illiari feels like half a character she needs more healing ammo in her gun and a nerf from 115 or 105 healing to like 55-65 and or a change that slows how much healing ammo you use if your not hitting a target (some teammates just don't make healing them easy). I don't wanna rely on pylon to provide passive value i rather have my healing be engaging and something i have to manage and pylon is there for if i need extra healing for my teammates to save like someone by using both at the same time or maybe let it heal someone while I heal someone else if my other support is dead or even if i want to take a position and damage for a bit and need a bit of healing myself
for sure pylon is getting a nerf
I don’t really get why they upped the health in the first place. It was so much less disruptive when a Reinhardt or whatever could just fire strike the damn thing and move on.
Yea but then they need to completely rework it imho. It's nuts if stuff like a simple firestrike just break it. Then it's useless like the last couple of seasons.
I mean, that's just bad pylon positioning. Pylon doesn't need los to enemies to be effective
What is bad pylon positioning? I did not even say or show where I put it not even said im an Illari player LMFAO. If you think you can put the pylon constantly behind cover or say impossible to destroy for the enemy you are just deluded. The rein just steps forward, shoots a firestrike and shields going back. That's why I'm saying 1 firestrike is too easy. There are maps like koth where it's easier but many maps where it gets destroyed easily. Leave me alone with your low rank opinion. The devs obviously agree with me on that and buffed the pylon.
A simple firestrike? The rein has to extend past the choke, drop shield to firestrike, blowing half of his ranged ability for the actual fight he intends to walk into and leaving himself vulnerable to al the cc the world has waiting for him, only then he can begin engaging. If he has to use both firestrikes to take it out, he is basically useless for the next 7ish seconds and his engage wasn't worth a thing. A well positioned pylon requires the rein to commit either positioning and/or cooldown suicide to take it out. Personally I think the pylon health should break with one firestrike, but I agree that it should actually just be reworked instead because illiari is cool but pylon is kinda lame
Just put it behind cover?
Oh yea how haven't I thought of that lol. Srsly that doesnt even deserve an answer.
I play Illari every day and thats not how it works. If I see anyone getting los on the pylon I immediately cancel it and replace it in another position which they they don't have los on. I don't even care how much hp the devs will give to the pylon because I never let anyone getting near it.
Treat it like Sym Turrets. Fragile, fairly low cooldown, but pretty significant impact. Can split it so they’re only high impact in numbers, or leave it just one.
Why? Is she not allowed to be viable??
55% WR is emergency update territory lol
*\*Pharah's 58% WR leaves quietly without getting noticed*
Devs literally said that 50-50% is fine. How is 55% win-rate on hero with such a low pick-rate “emergency update territory”??
Pay to win launch Mauga and Sojourn didn't even crack 54% and those were seasons where not having the battlepass was legitimately reportable. Characters have to be wildly mistuned to end up outside of 2-3% from 50 with as many data points as a game like this would have lol
Legitimately reportable lmao.
echo has had a winrate around 60% in gm for the past 5 seasons or so. while also consistently having one of the highest pickrates
Pharah have 58% Blizzard say she is fine, Rein have 62% again fine, Winton have 58% fine too, DVA, JQ, ORISA, SIgma,DF,Ram,Rog,Mauga 52-55% fine too.. Reaper 55% fine by Blizzard too. Support have 55% nerf to hell xDDD
Easy question for me because I hate turrets, pylons, etc...
Pylon feels so easy to get value from. IMO it’s overtuned
I’ve picked up Illari since the update. I went from never playing her to playing her all the time and getting crazy good results with both healing/dps. POTG all the time with her ult. As much fun as I’m having and it being a nice break from Ana, she’ll definitely have a nerf incoming. No way they’ll let a supp get away with this for too long, not with how much people hate supps being good. Granted, she is a bit too good. In true blizzard fashion she’ll probably be nerfed into the ground and go back to not being viable again and the rotation will go back to kiri/Ana/bap.
Don't they leave some heroes at 55% win rate? Since they leave other heroes lower than 50 to balance it out...
I used to like playing Illari and I really just want them to revert the entire pylon change. 125 hp is just broken and we already know that but the lower self heal just ruins her best playstyle so it just made her less fun.
So many dps players moving to support from what i've seen, could that be the reason?
I have a few potential options in mind for nerfs to her, but I feel like they aren't likely to happen and I wouldn't want more than one at a time because it would be pretty easy to kill her viability entirely. I also feel that much of her ability to win is based on how the game is playing right now in that it devalues healing comparative to damage and utility. Dive and mobility tanks aren't able to take space well without being punished and Sig it very viable which is the tank she synergizes best with (honestly the only one that she pairs particularly well with). That said these are the areas I would look at: Projectile size nerf, Time or heal quantity limit on pylon, overall damage nerf. I personally really like the idea of limiting how much the pylon can heal per placement. It makes Illari players have to actively consider their healing and not just act as another DPS, but lets be real having played with enough Illari's she'd play essentially the same.
no nerf
Yes nerf. For Pharah too while they’re at it.
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Honestly I thought she was great before the buff, now I have even better healing numbers
tbf i love illari and i think she’s great, Not op thoigh but then again i’m not a game developer so uh idk the stats
if she does get nerfed though the easiest way to nerf her is her pylon as it’s the strongest part of her kit
I really like Illari, one of the few characters I've taken to since a long break
She just got buffed, that is why everyone is playing with her and finding she is actually good in more than some niche.
55% winrate is the opposite of OP. Illari requires aim skill to win.
LOL. Funny how they supposedly look at data, and then get pedantic about the literal percentage point. Then they do wild balance changes again and again to no avail.
They're also saying Reaper has high win rate, and he's probably the worst DPS above diamond
The only problem I have is that sweeping winrates aren't indicative of whether or not a character *needs* to be changed. A more important stat might be winrates in a given skill pool, then you have to ask the important question of why it is the way it is and how you could possibly balance that in a productive way across all skill levels. You'd want to make a change to flatten a character out on a high skill level without having a harmful impact on skill levels below that, i.e. making a change that affects a character at high levels of play without making the character inaccessible/overpowered on a casual level. Just saying the character has a 55% win rate on its own doesn't tell us anything. ***Where*** are those wins happening? Where are those losses happening? 55% sounds pretty good, do they even want to close the gap? So many questions.
making that information public will likely drop her winrate because she's pmuch the #1 elo terrorist in the hands of the majority of support players "i'm the lowest ranked player in the lobby and 2 ranks lower on dps than on support. gotta lock illari, i hear she's got a high winrate"
My thoughts? She’s insanely boring to play. She’s very good, but she doesn’t FEEL powerful when I play her. She feels so stiff. So I don’t care if she’s slightly op tbh. People who play her are mashocistic
Why the hell does she have such a devastating ult lmao. I feel like everything about her is fine until I see her drop 2 4ks in a match its just so out of character compared to the average support
Her primary fire is the main pain point with her. Don’t get me wrong, I love being a Mei-like sniper… but it’s pretty strong
Sniping's a good job, mate.
idk i think shes in a pretty good spot right now. i dont think she needs any changes at the moment. if they do, id hope they reduce her gun damage ever so slightly but maybe buff the cooldown of her spinny jump about a second.
all imma say is samito called this
They nerfed hog at 54% winrate. Just sayin
Wasn't this recorded before the latest patch? That would mean she has already received the nerfs.
55% winrate suggests she's in a good spot. There is no need to nerf a character thar barely gets over 50% winrate.
55 is barely?
Yes, especially for a character that barely gets picked anyway. Also, she's not at 55, she's at 53.7 on PC comp. Higher than average is not an indication of OP-Ness. Come back to me when she is among the most commonly played heroes in the game and as amassing an ACTUAL 55 or higher percent winrate.
At most it should be 53% and that’s pushing it
You seem to not understand winrates. 55 winrate is really high. Edit: lol saw your other posts. You clearly have no clue about the matter or even simple statistics but act allknowing and trying to educate other people. Jesus. Just some info: There are 2 teams. If both have an Illari the winrate will be 50% for that Match (cause 1 of them loses while the other wins). So a winrate >50% means Illari wins more games than she loses if the losing team doesn't have one. Pushing the winrate to 55% is really high.
I don’t have an opinion about whether or not Illari is correctly balanced. That being said, your representation of these statistics follows a classic slippery slope logical fallacy. You correctly note if she has a winrate above 50%, she thus wins more than loses in match ups against other supports. That statement neglects to account for the fact that her pick rate in comparison to other supports is significantly lower. Given that is the case, in tandem with her niche utility on maps that favor her pylon mechanic, her winrate necessarily should be higher than other supports if we assume that she is only picked in scenarios where she is favored. Since we have no way of accounting for where and when she is picked, it’s unreasonable to conclude that she outperforms other supports *in every case*. You can use the pick rate to give project a rough estimation of how many compositions/maps she fits well into. All that being said, it would be equally a slippery slope to use the premise of her winrate to conclude that she isn’t overpowered either. Just because we have a rough idea that she isn’t over represented in compositional decisions of the player base, we couldn’t reasonably rule out the potential that she’s a sleeper waiting to be discovered either. Pharah’s recent spike in performance and pick rate likely mirrors that statistical trend. Her winrate could imply that trend. The issue comes down to the fact that her winrate in isolation only lets us know that she works better than other healers in the scenarios she is picked, and we have no conclusive data to shed any light on the conditions of her pick rate, upon which her winrate is dependent.
Delusional.
realistic If she was SOOOOOO overtuned, she'd be played more, but she's not.
Her ally healing needs to drop down or HP needs to reduce, it's **too easy** to get healing value to by good pylon placement Edit: it's crazy people think 50% healing ally buff isn't a bit too much. The consequence of this is also Illari can farm ultimate significantly faster.
shouldn’t good placement be rewarded? just like bad placement and overall bad positioning has its consequences?
Yes. This complaint is silly. As is the assumption that 55% win percentage is some indication of Illari being over tuned.
Everytime illari has had a high win rate is when she's been overtuned No it's not silly, win rates are a direct reflection of a characters current strength
55% isn't high... it's barely over half.
I don’t think you have a solid understanding of statistics based on that comment, Fools_requiem.
...you're joking right? Do you not understand how win rates work?
50% is half games won, half games lost. 55% is slightly more wins than losses. Not hard.
Yes but you fail to understand how that translates here Your own winrate being 55%? That's alright, nothing crazy 55% being the AVERAGE winrate for everyone using that character? Not good, it means that, on average, they're winning more simply for using that character, it doesn't take a genius to see the issue there
50% winrate across the board for every character is impossible, and winrates do not take into account how and when characters are being used. For instance, Symmetra has LONG had the highest winrrate for the vast majority of Overwatch's existence, but she is considered underpowered because of her extreme map and comp dependency. Also, according to Overbuff, Illari is at under 53% over the past month (on PC in comp) and is the second least played support hero just ahead of Brig.
55% is ridiculously high, considering people were saying Hog was "broken" at 54%
Emphasis on the quotes for "broken". People whine about shit all the time here. Case in point: This post about Illari.
Yeah but they also said that Hog is deemed as more frustrating and feels less fair at 54% whereas at 60% Rein which they considered high doesn’t get many complaint. I watched the video with Spilo talking to Alec last week, but think Alec went into detail on their ideal ranges.
You do get rewarded with good placement, it's called good uptime How much healing you get is too much for how easy a good placement is
Hm, checking her HPS did go from 30 to 40, so maybe 35 is what will see next? or maybe they’ll slow the burst? Which would you prefer? Slower burst at 40hps, or Same speed at 35, Faster at 30?
Entirely depends how much slower or faster it is but realistically 35 is probably the best for now
The fact pylon can be placed in spots that are nearly unkillable isn't exactly a skill that should be heavily rewarded. Want it to be more skillful limit it's healing output, uptime or range.
Or maybe fix those spots instead? Pylon will never be that skillful outside of placement. It is a pylon after all. Not like the player has much control over it besides placement and recalling it.
ah okay, i can see how some tinkering in those areas would make more than placement rewarding. i doubt they’ll mess with uptime because no else’s turrets have one. so if it were like range would it be the closer to pylon the better the healing out put and the further the lower it is be what you mean by that? so risk it getting eliminated easier for bigger heals compared to safer spot but less heals would make sense to you? I don’t play much Illari and in metal ranks people ignore them half them time lmao
"Good players uses a hero properly and gets value. She must need a nerf."
>it's too ***easy*** to get healing value
> by good pylon placement Play character well, get good value "easily". It would be a problem if poor usage still got good value.
You dropped a pylon. Those are riveting skills and gameplay, you definitely should be a streamer.
I mean it's too little effort for too much value. There's maps when you can't acess Pylon at all. Free 3rd healer Not that hard to press E on a spot that enemies don't have LOS on a choke.
It isn't a "free third healer", it IS Illari's main source of healing. Her beam runs out fast and has a recharge that takes awhile in a fight, not to mention a ridiculously short range (which isn't helped by the fact that she's supposed to be long distance and poke)
Just don't run out the healing and you don't take a while to recharge. It IS a third healer anyways. That's all what pylon does. Illari's healing beam is HIGHER than Mercy's beam for example, it heals more than 2X Mercy's healing beam heals. Why you think that's "ridiculously short"?
"Just don't run out of heals, forehead."
As bro just said "just play well" 🤷
No, I said, "If you play well, you should be rewarded." Your statement is like those "Just aim for the head" comments that people make when it comes to playing Widow better, as if that's any sort of solid advice.
If they nerf Ilari i nerf their life. Is a perfectly balanced. You need aim to play her succesfully, she only has her pylons and charged shots, ult is good but lets you vulnerable and can be cleansed with a few abilities. However people struggle to flank to destroy the pylon.
Tbh im a cassidy main and compared to cassidy she is op. Im on 80% wr with her rn. I don’t think they should nerf her they should buff damage hitscans
She has the easiest to aim with hitscan gun in the game after Cass right now. Pylon didn't need a health buff either.
isn't her gun easier to aim than cass? i main her because im an atrocious hitscan and her bullets are so huge i can still do good with them
Her Pylon should chain heal or super charge when she’s ulting pls
Illari is insane rn. Honestly one of the most irritating enemy supports when I’m on pharah.