Estrogen becomes hard to control especially at cycle doses, if you’re running TRT doses it’s not that big of a deal tbh but you’ll still notice it
That being said, I started my first cycle at around 20% and it turned out fine. Estrogen became noticeably easier to control when I lost more fat though, currently sitting at 14% BF 212lbs 6’2 and back on my TRT dose I no longer need to use an AI so that’s great
I did, and after my first cycle when i started cruising i cut nearly 30lbs. It would’ve been healthier to do it beforehand, but i was much more motivated after gaining so much muscle mass. At the end of the day, your body your choice do what works for you but also be aware of the risks.
I’m about 15-17% rn and my main goal is to stay lean. I’m cruising on 250 test and cutting super slowly. (I have yet to blast+ bulk. I started at 30% bodyfat and made my way down from 205 lb @5’6 to 170.0 @15-17% and I’ve gained 50 lb on my squat and deadlift each. I’d say another 2 ish months of dieting and I can get close to 10%. I want to so bad, but I also want to just start growing now. Honest question, what would you suggest? I’m still slowly gaining strength as I’m cutting down. Might as well just finish this damn cut?
So if you’re someone who likes to be lean during the summer like me, i’d stay on the cut. I love having my shirt off and showing off my abs. If you just wanna become huge fast then blast now, you don’t have to wait until any arbitrary point.
You could even blast and rather than bulk up immediately you could lean bulk and you’d prolly still blow up but without any unfavourable fat gain. As a former fatty like yourself we both know how annoying it is to get too fat again after cutting so deliberately.
Yeah trust me it sucks. I think I’m going to go ahead and prolong the cut and just really try to get as lean as I can until about mid to end of August. I want to be able to bulk for a solid 4-5 months. I think it’ll be worth it if I just keep pushing + being lean is pretty sick. This is the leanest I’ve ever been in my life and if I keep going it will only get freakier.
The first blast is always awesome, but coming from a cruise dose it prolly wont be as pronounced a difference for you unless you blast a ton. Good call to be patient, it’s a marathon not a sprint.
I plan on blasting 500 for the first time around. I might even dabble with some for the last 10 weeks with NPP it really depends how good the gains are. You’d think doubling the dose and upping food would make a significant difference? I’m hoping for at least another 50-75 lb on my squat and deadlift each.
I ran 350mg Test E/week + 20mg Anavar/daily for my first blast since I was at a higher BF% and didn’t want to aromatize like a bitch. The gains were awesome and I didn’t have any problems managing e2 - no acne, excessive bloating, etc. that’s def something to consider instead of the 500
I would certainly NOT recommend doubling the dosage and food intake for your first cycle dude. What’s ur cruise dose? Mine is 175 which keeps me around 1100ish
I was planning on doing 500 test right off the bat. I actually experimented with some Anavar while I was cutting for 8 weeks (20mg a day) super low dose but it got my lipids and liver enzymes out the reference range so I probably won’t play around with an oral for a bit. Maybe save it for my next cut/cruise. Also I’m not gonna double the food intake lol, I’m gonna slowly reverse diet out of my deficit and cut back cardio slowly trying to stay as lean as possible while climbing back up in weight. Off of just 250 test I’ve experienced no sides at all, not even any high e2 symptoms and I started at like 25% bodyfat lol.
Oh definitely, I was only eating 200 calories over maintenance though so that probably helped.
Some of my buddies went 500-800 over maintenance on a “dirty bulk” and came out looking like fat sacks of crap though so it could go either way lol be careful with your diet
Perfect, you might put on some water weight in the first couple of weeks but that should come off relatively quickly so don’t trip if you think you’re looking plump. Just hydrate and eat well + watch the e2 sides and you’ll be golden 💪🏾
When enhanced, higher body fat levels usually come with higher bp, worse lipids, and less insulin sensitivity. You generally create a more favorable environment for growth at reasonable body fat levels.
Probably ideal to not have a lot of body fat due to cardiovascular and other health reasons, but you wouldn’t see anyone doing something like strongman or powerlifting enhanced if this restriction was 100% the case across the board
This. I guess a lot of this sub skews wannabe bodybuilder, but there's almost no powerlifter who's gonna be walking around at 10% bodyfat. Maybe if you're like a -67kg guy or something, but you're gonna be so weak trying to be that lean. Between 15-20% is ideal for powerlifters, maybe even a bit more if you're in a higher weight class.
It's bro science. You don't. I hate this sub for this reason.
Most people on this sub think 15% is 10%. They have 0 concept of bf. They say they have 10% and actually sit at 15% because they are so far off.
Yes, you aromatize more. Not that much more. Also, some people aromatize more regardless. So should they be sub 10%? Fuck no.
A valid argument is that someone who's 20%+ (a reddit "15%") is going to be a fat lazy slob who won't do their cardio or eat properly on cycle , and be a stereotypical water bloated permabulker
But apart from looking ridiculous there's no reason to gatekeep fat people from doing AAS, especially when the Muh Health Tho gatekeepers are likely not the pictures of health themselves
Yeah especially when 110% of this sub claims they get bloods done regularly. Surely if you're above 15bf and you're aware of your markers then you should be easily on top of your AI/estrogen.
Everytime the voice of reason says "PEDs not healthy" I think, "if thousands of overweight idiots on reddit who use 10x the compounds i use, at 10x the dose i use, for 10x the length of time, with zero bloodwork, or ancillaries for sides, I'll probably be ok".
I do wonder what happened to all those obese older men on the gh15 forum who bragged about their 2 grams of tren a week cycles back in the 2010s
Their patron saint Jason Blaha seems to be still alive despite decades of abuse and binge eating, so maybe the dangers were overblown
I still have some compTH pellets in a box somewhere!
Did you keep up with Blahautism at all since the fake merc thing?
I dipped back in last year and apparently he killed his own dog (and blamed it on Eric Kanevsky and Alex Rosen) and his 55 year old hooker GF posted photos of the dildos he bought for her to peg him with
That's all you need to know really
His life in 2024 seems so awful and miserable that it's fitting karma for throwing his sick dog in the dumpster and leaving it to die in agony
When they made him "gh15 approved" that should have been the clue that the gh15 board was a joke
Exactly this. There's people who are 10% bf and would get gyno on 300mg test per week then there are people who are 30% bf that wouldn't get gyno on 1gram per week of test.
This below 15% is just and old wives tale. It all comes down to how your body aromatizes.
Below 5% is unrealistic and unsustainable. So no that’s not what that means. You have visceral body fat in that as well. You need fat to live there’s a reason we have it. And some people do fine with it. I’ve stayed at 15-20% from 185-250. It doesn’t matter what I do. So I gear. Fuck this sub lol
20% isn’t really fat. It’s getting kinda close and probably would be on someone who doesn’t lift, but you can look okay at 20%. Definitely not *impressive* unless you’re 300lbs+, but it’s at the upper bound of acceptability while bulking, and it’s probably not enough to be a health risk.
What impacts have you personally observed?
I’m basing “probably not enough to be a health risk” on having been around lots of D1 and professional linemen, almost all of whom are at least 20% and using PEDs. They generally don’t age super well, but I don’t personally know any who had health issues because of the PEDs.
If you are over 15% bodyfat, especially 20% and you're using PEDs you will absolutely see problems in your metabolic markers, lipids, and blood pressure.
15% is skinny fat and not visible abs, here is here it was for me (I started at 15% on TRT):
15% = skinnyfat
13% =average lean guy with flat stomach
11% = T- shape with abs (this where it really started to change my physique)
10% = visible six pack
9% = defined abs with barely showing v-belt (currently at this and stay around this all year)
8-7% armored cut look with defined v belt and full seperation (too tough to keep up and I dont compete).
You are what I'm referencing as far as not understanding bf %. Not a dig on you. I respect you after it get after it. I have visible abs at 16%. Like 6 pack and v cut.
Likely you ate about 5% higher than you think.
Sub 8% ED is very very common.
My TRT clinic taped me and literally would not let me do anything until I got to 15% bf and I hired a trainer through the whole thing (who also wouldnt help me either until I got to 15%) as "proof I had discipline" literally his own words. Never experienced ED at 8%, but I just had like zero desire to do the deed mentally, 7-8% is just so hard to keep up and miserable for you mentally and physically. 9-10% is alot more reasonable.
Ex navy here. It was always funny watching the fat dudes training their neck to beat the tape. I was a command fitness leader and can agree the tape is such a horrible measurement for body fat. Works for my wife’s bust size though lmao
Your body if you want to blast gear at higher bf%, I am not going to argue with you. I used to be in the military too and they dont tape right compared to the civvies. They brought out the calipers and everything for it at the clinic, and my trainer uses hydrostatic weighing which is the standard right now.
Fair enough, brother, but that's not all a tape test.
Here's the deal. I once was 30% bf after getting out of service and adjusting to civilian life. I was down a bad path and depressed. I did a cycle and change my life. This was years ago. So I'm a proponent for usage to better yourself regardless of you bf.
I have maintained 20% to sub 10% for many years now. So if it is a means to get to a healthier spot. Even at 30% I say go for it.
For context 18B is Weapons Sargent, Green Berets. So no pussy here. Mental health is no joke. So if it take one cycle to level set. I say go for it.
I barely aromatized at all until I pushed 1200mg/wk of Test E for 8 weeks or longer, 15% or 25%. Everyone is different. Some people need an AI on 100mg/wk.
I don't need an AI if I run 1200mg of test and 300mg of EQ because Boldenone is the preference for aromatization over Testosterone.
Also I have been everywhere from 35% to 10%. Ran gear at both ends. 15% works well for me.
At 20%, I can run 600mg test e and 1000iu hcg and only need 25mg aromasin a week as a case in point.
Currently about to bulk at 15%.
People with 15% body fat aromatize at \~50% greater levels than someone at 10% body fat. Aromatase activity is increased by age, obesity, alcohol, insulin, and gonadotropins.
Are you backing that up with scientific studies because that absolute bullshit. I've blasted at 11% bf and I've also blasted at 30% bf. No issues with aromatize at all.
It's not about bf% it about how well your body aromatizes
Its not bro science, its harm prevention. Over 15% requires so much AI it will be harmful to him to keep it up and the strain on his heart because he is overweight already makes it worse.
Some dodgy TRT clinics try to make a middle ground bu giving low doses of test and lots of var, but thats even worse honestly.
That’s you having some unhealthy standards (not a jab, I’d guess most here do). 9% is really lean, leaner than optimal for most sports.
How are you measuring this? Calipers?
I want to do a bulk sometime, its just hard to to put aside knowing that I must gain fat to bulk. The hardest part is forcing myself to eat all the food, I am constantly hungry but I know I tread a fine line being 9% all year. My entire family is overweight and I am like the single person that actually is in shape among them all. The way you are bulking is how I would do it too.
On a dexa scan I am around 11 percent bf. I aromatise very little and am dry as fuck. I’m running 400mg primo and 1000mg test and even then I have low e2.
My mate is around 25 percent. Same amount of primo and only running 250 test. Itchy nips puffy water retention etc
Body fat def makes a difference
I’m not the one who said they run 1g of test and 400mg of primo and are at 11% bf am I? If you can’t back it up thats on you. As they Reddit 10%bf = 20%+ bf
I wonder why you wanna start a cycle if you believe that you look great. You really don’t need PEDs with such mind set. It will a calorie maintenance matter for you only
The thing is, if you like the way you look at 19% bodyfat, once you start blasting and eating in a surplus you're inevitably going to add some bodyfat. Cut down to 15% and aim to end up back around 19%-20% at the end of the bulk.
I'm not sure you'd cut it that quickly, it'd be mostly water weight lost. Also if you eat in too much of a deficit you'll likely lose muscle. Better to aim for a steady 1lb per week fat loss.
140 at 19% is a bit questionable for a lifter taking into account your height but if everything's okay with your diet and training then start a cycle if you wish. Youll probably end up leaner than before the cycle while gaining weight if done well.
Do you think that's too low or high for my weight?
Im doing the navy method to measure.
My belly is 34 to 35 inches and my neck is 15 inches.
Im 28.
Thats the goal, is to get to like 150 with less body fat
Too high, and also almost certainly inaccurate given the method used. The tape method (especially as used by the military) is almost useless.
Would you say you look distinctly tubby? 19% at your height and weight is not gonna be cut, it’s gonna look distinctly out of shape. If that doesn’t sound like you, your body fat measurement is probably way off.
No you're right. I went back and measured because my girl did it.
It's actually 16% BF. I don't look tubby at all, I look pretty skinny.
[here's 3 pics. the 2 bottom pictures are from the night before after a big meal and a great gym session. The top is me the morning after, dehydrated](https://imgur.com/a/0bi8TIi)
16% sounds more accurate based on those pictures, but I’d encourage you to measure using another method. Hydrostatic weighing is the best method, but calipers are still infinitely better than tape if the user is experienced. Body fat calipers in the hands of someone inexperienced are useless though, if you’re gonna measure at home, pictures taken over time are best for gauging progress.
While the lower body fat is good news, I’d still strongly recommend making some additional progress before starting a first cycle. I’m not a big believer in needing to be a given body fat percentage, but you really want to hit 1.5x body weight bench, 2x squat, and 2.5x deadlift before you jump into PEDs. That’s especially true for smaller guys since the absolute weights aren’t that high.
I got myself a caliper but I can't for the life of me figure out how to use it correctly. The tiny squeeze technique is so hard lol.
Hmm, I need to start doing heavy lifting then since I do small weights big reps.
So goal is to be able to do 210 bench, 280 squat, and 350 deadlift
Calipers are really difficult to use on yourself, I’m good at it and I still would prefer someone else do it.
Yes, heavier weights for something like 5x5 are a good idea. You can build a lot more muscle with bodybuilding style training if you have the foundation to do it with reasonably heavy weights. Heavy weights on big compound exercises (especially squats and deadlifts) also make your body produce more testosterone and growth hormone. Someone at your level of development is going to grow much faster with heavier weights. I’d recommend something simple like 5x5 or starting strength, then progressing to something like the Texas Method program.
In the context of using PEDs, it’s important to build up that foundation to avoid injuries. If you hop on a cycle now, your muscles will get strong enough that you’re using weights your tendons and ligaments aren’t strong enough to handle. Connective tissues take a lot longer to strengthen than muscles do. That’s one of the main reasons you generally want to have a few years of training with heavier weights under your belt before jumping into PEDs. Without that base, you’re gonna get hurt. Then you won’t be able to lift and will be dealing with sides for no reason.
Because everyone in the sub is dumb and doesn’t know shit about training or PED use.
Don’t cut before your cycle. Cut during your cycle. You gain muscle and lose a lot more fat if you’re cutting on cycle. This sub is proof that you shouldn’t take advice from people on the internet because they sound confident when they are actually clueless.
Truuuuu. OP is exhibit A.
On a caloric surplus you will gain more muscle than on a deficit. Why not optimize your growth while taking 500mg test?
Pretty sure trt dosages are enough to preserve muscle during a cut.
You don’t need that much gear to cut unless you’re cutting for a show. For amateurs, there’s not much point wasting a cycle on a cut to beach body levels.
What I don’t know about PEDs, I make up in knowledge/experience in training and nutrition. I’ve been training my whole life and started tracking macros religiously, daily a couple years ago. In essence, I waited to hop on gear until old age and looked like I was on gear already. With that said, I’m currently on my first cycle and cutting. I’m taking 200 mg test C a week. I’m currently on week 6 and did bloods at week 4. Trough came out at 1400. With all that said, I will say this cut is much easier than last summers cut for sure. Even though, it’s a “baby” dose by most peoples standards, strength is still increasing, vascularity was crazy before but now it’s in my legs, abs, etc, I’m losing fat and gaining some muscle, the slight water retention is great in that you don’t have the “ flat” look that comes from low carbs, and training on an empty stomach is not a problem! Anyone with real experience in tracking nutrition/training and cutting knows first hand how difficult it can get once you start getting to a legit 10% bf. On test, however it’s like you’ve been giving cheat codes. Worth noting though, is the extreme hunger that comes with it. I am constantly fighting hunger pangs that I don’t normally have to until I’m already in single digit bf. This is expected however, but still worth noting. So again, am I an experienced PeD user, no, but I did earn my stripes as a natty and can say without a doubt that cutting while on gear is awesome.
1. Not if you’re already fat. Why would you gain fat if you’re already fat?
2. Losing fat is by far “the most bang for your buck” you can lost 20 of fat in 12 weeks and look way better being down 200lbs of fat. In the same 12 weeks you can gain 2, maybe 3lbs of muscle if you’re a beginner and on a ton of gear. If you include the fat that you gained alongside the 2-3lbs of muscle you might actually look worse.
3. The idea that you cannot gain muscle in a calorie deficit only applies to advanced trainees and nattys. If you’re taking gear you can gain muscle mass in a deficit unless you’re already super lean and super advanced training age (OP is not). Even if you’re natural if you’re a beginner and kinda fat you can absolutely still gain muscle in a calorie deficit.
Well yeah I agree. But if the goal is to simply lose 20lbs of fat and gain 3lbs of muscle there's absolutely no need to be running gear for that, it's can be achieved naturally pretty comfortably. Again, agreed. Natural beginners can gain muscle even in a deficit but it'd be far from optimal. My original point is based around someone who is already trained looking to run their first cycle. Running a cut for a first cycle (which tends to be the best muscle building cycle for most) would be such a waste.
Gaining 3lbs of muscle in 12 weeks is only possible natty if it’s your first 12 weeks of training in your life. And even then you can’t do it while also losing 20lbs of fat like you can on gear. You’re the exact person I was talking about when I said people in this sub don’t know shit about training or PED use.
Well that's not entirely correct, 3lbs of muscle could be gained within most 12 weeks peroids during the first year of training. Also, you're the one who laid out the horrible hypothetical of running gear to lose 20lbs of fat and gain 3lbs of muscle in 12 weeks. How about they lose the 20lbs of fat first, THEN jump on gear and gain 10lbs of muscle during a slower bulk of 14-20 weeks? Anyone who uses their first cycle to cut is just lazy and looking for a quick fix which will be sub-optimal for muscle growth.
No. Everything you said is stupid. Using your first cycle to cut is a great idea. You’re completely ignoring muscle loss from cutting not on cycle. You’re overestimating natty gains. Also even following your plan (which is unrealistically generous) it would take 32 to weeks to make the progress that my plan (which is underestimating and very realistic) in 12 weeks. You basically just said to me: “why do it in 12 weeks when you can do it in 26-32 weeks instead?” Because fucking duh. I want the gains faster that’s the entire reason for taking PEDs in the first place. Fucking moron. Don’t know shit about training or PED use or that 12 weeks is shorter than 26 to 32 weeks. You’re the person I was talking about in my original comment.
That fact that you think the reason for taking PED's should be to yield results as fast as possible highlights just how uneducated you are, you're the exact person you're talking about and don't even know it. The only world in which your cycle would be optimal is if the person ONLY had 12 weeks and not a second longer. Cycle optimisation and trying to do things as safely/side effect-free as possible are just as important as the goal of building muscle.
A 12 week cycle is not optimal.
Shutting down your HPTA in hopes of gaining just 3lbs of muscle is far optimal and is barely worth the risk.
Eating in a deficit whilst running a stack designed to build muscle during a period of time you're likely more primed for building muscle than any other in your lifetime is just a bit sad to be honest. Give yourself double the time, build 3-4x the muscle.
However, if you were to suggest they run a low "trt dose" to help cut and THEN transition into a blast, then I'd be on board.
If you’re someone like OP (5’5 140lbs 19%) you aren’t going to be able to just lose fat and look good. That works once you have some muscle.
I think OP should hold off on using anything until he’s gotten his noob gains, but he should probably focus on some basic strength/foundation before doing a dedicated cut. His absolute amount of body fat is low enough that the percentage will likely go down anyway. I gained 80lbs in a year at one point and stayed at approximately the same body fat % because I was a noob teenager (but done getting taller). OP isn’t a teenager, but he’s not old.
Yeah you are and seem to be the one of those confidently clueless people on the internet.
During a cut you attempt to maintain muscle mass while losing weight to shedding fat which is why your in caloric deficit hence why its cutting. 🤦🏿♂️
Recomp not in a deficit on cycle is adjusting your amount of fat mass to lean body mass gaining muscle gain losing fat.
Jeez
Blood pressure management is harder, E2 management is harder, and your bulking is limited because if you want to have an actual productive anabolic cycle you'll end up at like 25% BF.
I'd recommend to start your first cycle at any BF%. Testosterone will help you burn an insane amount of fat, incomprehensible to someone who's never taken a steroid before?
From battle-tested veterans who run gear regularly, we won't see as insane results as someone who's never taken one before, especially as we age. Being a low body fat is extremely beneficial but not a requirement.
Just have your diet on lockdown, have a decent workout 3-4 days a week, and you're good to go. Just don't be cheap when it comes to your cycle, buy everything you need because you will need it eventually, and if you don't? At least you have it if you do.
Keep an eye on you BP and nips. I am running 350 test/ 210 tren (weekly pinned daily) and 40 day of Anavar, half arimidex eod. No significant sides, BP is good (take medication) but the muscle is packing on, the fat is burning off and most importantly my I am loving the gym, it is no longer a chore because I can see rewards for my work weekly. I am older so for me I don’t care, I wouldn’t want to suggest someone in their 20’s takes this kind of risk though.
You don’t need too, but it’s highly beneficial to start a bulk or growing cycle at 10–12% bodyfat, because it takes 3-5 months to add any real mass and size and if you are 15%+, you risk being 18-22%, which isn’t healthy and you won’t look so great naked like you would at 10-14% bodyfat.
Most guys want a toned healthy aesthetic looking body, like 5’10” and 190lbs 12%. Bodyfat % makes or breaks a physique.
There is a lot of debate around aromatization and insulin sensitivity at body fat levels above 15%. I won’t get into it because honestly it’s a mixed bag in my opinion and a lot of people are hella dogmatic about it.
One issue I do find with using PEDs at higher body fat percentages is it becomes a total mindfuck. When you’re lean and start blasting, every ounce of muscle added is easily quantifiable on your frame. When you’re on the thicker side, you just become wider for a lack of better terms. That mixed with the unavoidable water retention from using AAS, tends to drive people in a tailspin and start to make some poor choices on cycle. The first bulk cycle I did I started at 18% BF. After twenty weeks, I honestly felt fatter and more jiggly. It wasn’t until after a solid cut that I realized just how much muscle I put on.
Well good news on that. Realized we were measuring wrong on my neck.
Actually I'm 16%. Well high 16 so let's just say 17%.
I bloat easily so I'm a bit worried about that.
The vast majority of water retention comes down to E2 management and diet (carbs/sodium)
I’m old school but I’d always everyone’s first cycle to be the tried and true 500mg/weekly of Test. That’s it. No orals. No additional compounds.
Run bloodwork at the start to get a baseline. Run them again at 6 weeks to access your levels, specially E2. If high, you can take an AI. But that’s it. 20 weeks max.
Simple, I like it.
Yeah the tried and true 500 seems great. But my thing is does that apply to someone as small as me? That's why I was asking and trying to start off with 3 and work myself up and see how I feel. Goal is Def 500 if no sides.
My plan was blood before, blood a week or 2 during and blood after pct.
Ill do 6 weeks in if its better, just wanted to do an early blood to make sure it's working.
Always get into the best shape possible before starting anything . I make sure I’ve hit a wall and modify my macro/micro intake even before adding creatine. I find that failing over and over just creates a better build . If someone cannot get down to 15% bf after using diet/exercise modifications of at least least two years , it may indicate something physically wrong and an issue for you
And your physician . So many factors but cycling is not the way …at all. AA use is not needed nor is being sub 15% . If it’s your goal though , then kick ass and do you 🫶💪💪
I hopen on cycle at about 20%... it was an error. I was indeed able to grow a lot of muscle, ending north of 25%bf... But I cuted for more than one year after that to reach 14%. Very very difficult to cut so long. I would never hop on cycle above 15% again. At the end of the day, I lost time.
Because over 15% your body becomes a massive estrogen-producing factory and dialing in AI will be expensive and pointless. Also taking androgens when you are out of shape is hard on your heart and body. The consequences are serious and developing gyno or discovering you have a heart problem after you take it makes it much worse.
Learn discipline and how to diet correctly before jumping on gear as you are flat out wasting it if you take it right now. Getting to 15% without gear is simply diet and training and can be easily done.
If you think you “look great at 19%” then respect to you! Sounds like you don’t need a better physique for your goals.
Back on planet earth, there’s a thing called insulin sensitivity that will determine how effective your body is at building muscle. Nobody here has mentioned it but it is probably the biggest determinate if you put on muscle or fat when in a surplus. When you are fat you are less sensitive and more resistant to insulin. Vice versa when you are lean. Why does insulin matter for bruins if muscle? Idk go read a book, but don’t ask the ppl telling you “you look great at 19%”.
Why do you think the post-contest rebound phase, when a physique is ~5% bf, is when guys report THE MOST AND EASIEST muscle gains? At lower body fats your body is like a sponge for macros/nutrients and putting it into new muscle mass (with the correct stimulus).
Keep in mind I was 107lbs. I looked extremely fucking skinny, so I dirty bulked to 180lbs, looked disgusting and dropped back down to 140lbs where I don't look bad at all and have good muscle definition.
I can drop to 15% i believe that'll only be about 10lbs or a little more since I'm so short
Lmao, I was drinking mass gainers and eating burgers like a Mother fucker. Yeah I gave up, it wasn't until I started looking oily and could barely see my dick past my gut that I decided to get back to being slim.
My tdee says optimal weight for me would be 135. 5lbs less than what I weigh atm. I'd probably be close to 15% at that point
Estrogen becomes hard to control especially at cycle doses, if you’re running TRT doses it’s not that big of a deal tbh but you’ll still notice it That being said, I started my first cycle at around 20% and it turned out fine. Estrogen became noticeably easier to control when I lost more fat though, currently sitting at 14% BF 212lbs 6’2 and back on my TRT dose I no longer need to use an AI so that’s great
Did you get leaner as you gained muscle on the first cycle?
I did, and after my first cycle when i started cruising i cut nearly 30lbs. It would’ve been healthier to do it beforehand, but i was much more motivated after gaining so much muscle mass. At the end of the day, your body your choice do what works for you but also be aware of the risks.
I’m about 15-17% rn and my main goal is to stay lean. I’m cruising on 250 test and cutting super slowly. (I have yet to blast+ bulk. I started at 30% bodyfat and made my way down from 205 lb @5’6 to 170.0 @15-17% and I’ve gained 50 lb on my squat and deadlift each. I’d say another 2 ish months of dieting and I can get close to 10%. I want to so bad, but I also want to just start growing now. Honest question, what would you suggest? I’m still slowly gaining strength as I’m cutting down. Might as well just finish this damn cut?
So if you’re someone who likes to be lean during the summer like me, i’d stay on the cut. I love having my shirt off and showing off my abs. If you just wanna become huge fast then blast now, you don’t have to wait until any arbitrary point. You could even blast and rather than bulk up immediately you could lean bulk and you’d prolly still blow up but without any unfavourable fat gain. As a former fatty like yourself we both know how annoying it is to get too fat again after cutting so deliberately.
Yeah trust me it sucks. I think I’m going to go ahead and prolong the cut and just really try to get as lean as I can until about mid to end of August. I want to be able to bulk for a solid 4-5 months. I think it’ll be worth it if I just keep pushing + being lean is pretty sick. This is the leanest I’ve ever been in my life and if I keep going it will only get freakier.
The first blast is always awesome, but coming from a cruise dose it prolly wont be as pronounced a difference for you unless you blast a ton. Good call to be patient, it’s a marathon not a sprint.
I plan on blasting 500 for the first time around. I might even dabble with some for the last 10 weeks with NPP it really depends how good the gains are. You’d think doubling the dose and upping food would make a significant difference? I’m hoping for at least another 50-75 lb on my squat and deadlift each.
I ran 350mg Test E/week + 20mg Anavar/daily for my first blast since I was at a higher BF% and didn’t want to aromatize like a bitch. The gains were awesome and I didn’t have any problems managing e2 - no acne, excessive bloating, etc. that’s def something to consider instead of the 500 I would certainly NOT recommend doubling the dosage and food intake for your first cycle dude. What’s ur cruise dose? Mine is 175 which keeps me around 1100ish
I was planning on doing 500 test right off the bat. I actually experimented with some Anavar while I was cutting for 8 weeks (20mg a day) super low dose but it got my lipids and liver enzymes out the reference range so I probably won’t play around with an oral for a bit. Maybe save it for my next cut/cruise. Also I’m not gonna double the food intake lol, I’m gonna slowly reverse diet out of my deficit and cut back cardio slowly trying to stay as lean as possible while climbing back up in weight. Off of just 250 test I’ve experienced no sides at all, not even any high e2 symptoms and I started at like 25% bodyfat lol.
Oh definitely, I was only eating 200 calories over maintenance though so that probably helped. Some of my buddies went 500-800 over maintenance on a “dirty bulk” and came out looking like fat sacks of crap though so it could go either way lol be careful with your diet
Yeah when I blast I’m gonna be cautious on the bulk. 1 lb a week is the goal. Not gonna get too crazy with it want to stay lean
Perfect, you might put on some water weight in the first couple of weeks but that should come off relatively quickly so don’t trip if you think you’re looking plump. Just hydrate and eat well + watch the e2 sides and you’ll be golden 💪🏾
When enhanced, higher body fat levels usually come with higher bp, worse lipids, and less insulin sensitivity. You generally create a more favorable environment for growth at reasonable body fat levels.
I second this exactly
Probably ideal to not have a lot of body fat due to cardiovascular and other health reasons, but you wouldn’t see anyone doing something like strongman or powerlifting enhanced if this restriction was 100% the case across the board
This. I guess a lot of this sub skews wannabe bodybuilder, but there's almost no powerlifter who's gonna be walking around at 10% bodyfat. Maybe if you're like a -67kg guy or something, but you're gonna be so weak trying to be that lean. Between 15-20% is ideal for powerlifters, maybe even a bit more if you're in a higher weight class.
Aromatize more at high bf
It's bro science. You don't. I hate this sub for this reason. Most people on this sub think 15% is 10%. They have 0 concept of bf. They say they have 10% and actually sit at 15% because they are so far off. Yes, you aromatize more. Not that much more. Also, some people aromatize more regardless. So should they be sub 10%? Fuck no.
A valid argument is that someone who's 20%+ (a reddit "15%") is going to be a fat lazy slob who won't do their cardio or eat properly on cycle , and be a stereotypical water bloated permabulker But apart from looking ridiculous there's no reason to gatekeep fat people from doing AAS, especially when the Muh Health Tho gatekeepers are likely not the pictures of health themselves
Lol today I found out I’m a Reddit 15%
Yeah especially when 110% of this sub claims they get bloods done regularly. Surely if you're above 15bf and you're aware of your markers then you should be easily on top of your AI/estrogen.
Everytime the voice of reason says "PEDs not healthy" I think, "if thousands of overweight idiots on reddit who use 10x the compounds i use, at 10x the dose i use, for 10x the length of time, with zero bloodwork, or ancillaries for sides, I'll probably be ok".
I do wonder what happened to all those obese older men on the gh15 forum who bragged about their 2 grams of tren a week cycles back in the 2010s Their patron saint Jason Blaha seems to be still alive despite decades of abuse and binge eating, so maybe the dangers were overblown
Damn, nostalgia. Brings me back. 2010: finaplix on veterinarian sites and buying real roids at the fitness store. Blaha, now that's a fuckin name.
I still have some compTH pellets in a box somewhere! Did you keep up with Blahautism at all since the fake merc thing? I dipped back in last year and apparently he killed his own dog (and blamed it on Eric Kanevsky and Alex Rosen) and his 55 year old hooker GF posted photos of the dildos he bought for her to peg him with
I don't really know much about him or ever watched his stuff. Just enough to know he is/was a lying, deluded, joke of a "man".
That's all you need to know really His life in 2024 seems so awful and miserable that it's fitting karma for throwing his sick dog in the dumpster and leaving it to die in agony When they made him "gh15 approved" that should have been the clue that the gh15 board was a joke
Totally agree with this statement most don’t know what proper body fat percentage looks like
Me? I literally don't aromatise. It's just insane. I'm 15% right now, taking 600mg/week of test and I'm barely squeezing out extra estrogen.
Exactly this. There's people who are 10% bf and would get gyno on 300mg test per week then there are people who are 30% bf that wouldn't get gyno on 1gram per week of test. This below 15% is just and old wives tale. It all comes down to how your body aromatizes.
I can tell you from personal experience that yes you do and wtf you talking about being sub 10% and shit
I have 14 years in the game, bro... 20% isn't even fat.... 15% visible abs. Again, most people don't understand what 10% really looks like.
I didn't get abs till just under 12% body fat
If you are 200 lbs and 20% body fat you are carrying around 40 lbs. of fat. Not sure how you're characterizing that as "not fat".
Below 5% is unrealistic and unsustainable. So no that’s not what that means. You have visceral body fat in that as well. You need fat to live there’s a reason we have it. And some people do fine with it. I’ve stayed at 15-20% from 185-250. It doesn’t matter what I do. So I gear. Fuck this sub lol
Are you responding to the correct post? I didn't say anything about below 5%.
You didn’t read the whole thing bro.
You should respond to their comment not just the last one in the thread
You're fat
100% Living my hot fat girl summer right now.
20% isn’t really fat. It’s getting kinda close and probably would be on someone who doesn’t lift, but you can look okay at 20%. Definitely not *impressive* unless you’re 300lbs+, but it’s at the upper bound of acceptability while bulking, and it’s probably not enough to be a health risk.
Yes it is. I've seen this over and over again. 20% bf will absolutely have health risks on peds.
What impacts have you personally observed? I’m basing “probably not enough to be a health risk” on having been around lots of D1 and professional linemen, almost all of whom are at least 20% and using PEDs. They generally don’t age super well, but I don’t personally know any who had health issues because of the PEDs.
If you are over 15% bodyfat, especially 20% and you're using PEDs you will absolutely see problems in your metabolic markers, lipids, and blood pressure.
15% is skinny fat and not visible abs, here is here it was for me (I started at 15% on TRT): 15% = skinnyfat 13% =average lean guy with flat stomach 11% = T- shape with abs (this where it really started to change my physique) 10% = visible six pack 9% = defined abs with barely showing v-belt (currently at this and stay around this all year) 8-7% armored cut look with defined v belt and full seperation (too tough to keep up and I dont compete).
You are what I'm referencing as far as not understanding bf %. Not a dig on you. I respect you after it get after it. I have visible abs at 16%. Like 6 pack and v cut. Likely you ate about 5% higher than you think. Sub 8% ED is very very common.
My TRT clinic taped me and literally would not let me do anything until I got to 15% bf and I hired a trainer through the whole thing (who also wouldnt help me either until I got to 15%) as "proof I had discipline" literally his own words. Never experienced ED at 8%, but I just had like zero desire to do the deed mentally, 7-8% is just so hard to keep up and miserable for you mentally and physically. 9-10% is alot more reasonable.
Lmao I was in the Army for many years 18B, and the tape for BF is not accurate at all.
Ex navy here. It was always funny watching the fat dudes training their neck to beat the tape. I was a command fitness leader and can agree the tape is such a horrible measurement for body fat. Works for my wife’s bust size though lmao
Your body if you want to blast gear at higher bf%, I am not going to argue with you. I used to be in the military too and they dont tape right compared to the civvies. They brought out the calipers and everything for it at the clinic, and my trainer uses hydrostatic weighing which is the standard right now.
Fair enough, brother, but that's not all a tape test. Here's the deal. I once was 30% bf after getting out of service and adjusting to civilian life. I was down a bad path and depressed. I did a cycle and change my life. This was years ago. So I'm a proponent for usage to better yourself regardless of you bf. I have maintained 20% to sub 10% for many years now. So if it is a means to get to a healthier spot. Even at 30% I say go for it. For context 18B is Weapons Sargent, Green Berets. So no pussy here. Mental health is no joke. So if it take one cycle to level set. I say go for it.
You can be 15% and not be skinny, what are you even talking about?
Again dude what’s your point never even said you need to be 10% before starting
Yes you do aromatize way more. Particularly most people here are 20+ not even close to 15
I barely aromatized at all until I pushed 1200mg/wk of Test E for 8 weeks or longer, 15% or 25%. Everyone is different. Some people need an AI on 100mg/wk. I don't need an AI if I run 1200mg of test and 300mg of EQ because Boldenone is the preference for aromatization over Testosterone.
Also I have been everywhere from 35% to 10%. Ran gear at both ends. 15% works well for me. At 20%, I can run 600mg test e and 1000iu hcg and only need 25mg aromasin a week as a case in point. Currently about to bulk at 15%.
People with 15% body fat aromatize at \~50% greater levels than someone at 10% body fat. Aromatase activity is increased by age, obesity, alcohol, insulin, and gonadotropins.
I do all of those things and have zero aromatization issues.
Are you backing that up with scientific studies because that absolute bullshit. I've blasted at 11% bf and I've also blasted at 30% bf. No issues with aromatize at all. It's not about bf% it about how well your body aromatizes
Its not bro science, its harm prevention. Over 15% requires so much AI it will be harmful to him to keep it up and the strain on his heart because he is overweight already makes it worse. Some dodgy TRT clinics try to make a middle ground bu giving low doses of test and lots of var, but thats even worse honestly.
Above 15% is not over weight.... sh
For me it is as I do my best to stay 9% all year or I feel like a fat pig.
My dick stops working right under 10%....to each their own 😀
That’s you having some unhealthy standards (not a jab, I’d guess most here do). 9% is really lean, leaner than optimal for most sports. How are you measuring this? Calipers?
Hydrostatic weighing
I always cut to 11% -12% confirmed by dexa then bulk for 16-20 weeks. Works very well for me.
I want to do a bulk sometime, its just hard to to put aside knowing that I must gain fat to bulk. The hardest part is forcing myself to eat all the food, I am constantly hungry but I know I tread a fine line being 9% all year. My entire family is overweight and I am like the single person that actually is in shape among them all. The way you are bulking is how I would do it too.
You have such horrible information. I mean honestly who’s teaching you this nonsense?
Hahahahaha
On a dexa scan I am around 11 percent bf. I aromatise very little and am dry as fuck. I’m running 400mg primo and 1000mg test and even then I have low e2. My mate is around 25 percent. Same amount of primo and only running 250 test. Itchy nips puffy water retention etc Body fat def makes a difference
Running a gram of test with 400mg of primo 🤦🏿♂️
Is that a facepalm? If so please enlighten. Current stats around 11 percent bf. 172cms. 95kg.
Pics with dexa scan, labs or is 100% 🧢
I’m not gonna send a random person my pics on the net to validate a comment. You can think what u want and u r correct 👍
No need point proven 100% 🧢
I’m genuinely lost with where u r coming from? How about u explain your thought instead of asking for photos to wank to
I’m not the one who said they run 1g of test and 400mg of primo and are at 11% bf am I? If you can’t back it up thats on you. As they Reddit 10%bf = 20%+ bf
[удалено]
Radio silence now?
I highly recommend you to not start PED’s if you’re just 140lbs, 5’5 and 19% You have A LOT of natural potential left. Aim for 155 at 10% or lower
I wonder why you wanna start a cycle if you believe that you look great. You really don’t need PEDs with such mind set. It will a calorie maintenance matter for you only
The thing is, if you like the way you look at 19% bodyfat, once you start blasting and eating in a surplus you're inevitably going to add some bodyfat. Cut down to 15% and aim to end up back around 19%-20% at the end of the bulk.
I can do that then. Since I'm so fucking short 15% is like 10lbs then. I can probably get down to that in 2 weeks with a meat only diet or keto
I'm not sure you'd cut it that quickly, it'd be mostly water weight lost. Also if you eat in too much of a deficit you'll likely lose muscle. Better to aim for a steady 1lb per week fat loss.
That's true. I'll aim for a 250 defecit and not try to rush down so quick. It'd be a waste to get to 15% but lose a lot of muscle as well
140 at 19% is a bit questionable for a lifter taking into account your height but if everything's okay with your diet and training then start a cycle if you wish. Youll probably end up leaner than before the cycle while gaining weight if done well.
Do you think that's too low or high for my weight? Im doing the navy method to measure. My belly is 34 to 35 inches and my neck is 15 inches. Im 28. Thats the goal, is to get to like 150 with less body fat
Too high, and also almost certainly inaccurate given the method used. The tape method (especially as used by the military) is almost useless. Would you say you look distinctly tubby? 19% at your height and weight is not gonna be cut, it’s gonna look distinctly out of shape. If that doesn’t sound like you, your body fat measurement is probably way off.
No you're right. I went back and measured because my girl did it. It's actually 16% BF. I don't look tubby at all, I look pretty skinny. [here's 3 pics. the 2 bottom pictures are from the night before after a big meal and a great gym session. The top is me the morning after, dehydrated](https://imgur.com/a/0bi8TIi)
16% sounds more accurate based on those pictures, but I’d encourage you to measure using another method. Hydrostatic weighing is the best method, but calipers are still infinitely better than tape if the user is experienced. Body fat calipers in the hands of someone inexperienced are useless though, if you’re gonna measure at home, pictures taken over time are best for gauging progress. While the lower body fat is good news, I’d still strongly recommend making some additional progress before starting a first cycle. I’m not a big believer in needing to be a given body fat percentage, but you really want to hit 1.5x body weight bench, 2x squat, and 2.5x deadlift before you jump into PEDs. That’s especially true for smaller guys since the absolute weights aren’t that high.
I got myself a caliper but I can't for the life of me figure out how to use it correctly. The tiny squeeze technique is so hard lol. Hmm, I need to start doing heavy lifting then since I do small weights big reps. So goal is to be able to do 210 bench, 280 squat, and 350 deadlift
Calipers are really difficult to use on yourself, I’m good at it and I still would prefer someone else do it. Yes, heavier weights for something like 5x5 are a good idea. You can build a lot more muscle with bodybuilding style training if you have the foundation to do it with reasonably heavy weights. Heavy weights on big compound exercises (especially squats and deadlifts) also make your body produce more testosterone and growth hormone. Someone at your level of development is going to grow much faster with heavier weights. I’d recommend something simple like 5x5 or starting strength, then progressing to something like the Texas Method program. In the context of using PEDs, it’s important to build up that foundation to avoid injuries. If you hop on a cycle now, your muscles will get strong enough that you’re using weights your tendons and ligaments aren’t strong enough to handle. Connective tissues take a lot longer to strengthen than muscles do. That’s one of the main reasons you generally want to have a few years of training with heavier weights under your belt before jumping into PEDs. Without that base, you’re gonna get hurt. Then you won’t be able to lift and will be dealing with sides for no reason.
Because everyone in the sub is dumb and doesn’t know shit about training or PED use. Don’t cut before your cycle. Cut during your cycle. You gain muscle and lose a lot more fat if you’re cutting on cycle. This sub is proof that you shouldn’t take advice from people on the internet because they sound confident when they are actually clueless.
Truuuuu. OP is exhibit A. On a caloric surplus you will gain more muscle than on a deficit. Why not optimize your growth while taking 500mg test? Pretty sure trt dosages are enough to preserve muscle during a cut.
See exactly what I’m talking about.
Doubt it
You don’t need that much gear to cut unless you’re cutting for a show. For amateurs, there’s not much point wasting a cycle on a cut to beach body levels.
What I don’t know about PEDs, I make up in knowledge/experience in training and nutrition. I’ve been training my whole life and started tracking macros religiously, daily a couple years ago. In essence, I waited to hop on gear until old age and looked like I was on gear already. With that said, I’m currently on my first cycle and cutting. I’m taking 200 mg test C a week. I’m currently on week 6 and did bloods at week 4. Trough came out at 1400. With all that said, I will say this cut is much easier than last summers cut for sure. Even though, it’s a “baby” dose by most peoples standards, strength is still increasing, vascularity was crazy before but now it’s in my legs, abs, etc, I’m losing fat and gaining some muscle, the slight water retention is great in that you don’t have the “ flat” look that comes from low carbs, and training on an empty stomach is not a problem! Anyone with real experience in tracking nutrition/training and cutting knows first hand how difficult it can get once you start getting to a legit 10% bf. On test, however it’s like you’ve been giving cheat codes. Worth noting though, is the extreme hunger that comes with it. I am constantly fighting hunger pangs that I don’t normally have to until I’m already in single digit bf. This is expected however, but still worth noting. So again, am I an experienced PeD user, no, but I did earn my stripes as a natty and can say without a doubt that cutting while on gear is awesome.
And you’re clearly not have any side effects… definitely not overreacting and confrontational to strangers on the internet… 👀
Maybe at the end. The main focus of the first cycle should be to build as much (ideally lean) mass as possible to get the most bang for your buck.
1. Not if you’re already fat. Why would you gain fat if you’re already fat? 2. Losing fat is by far “the most bang for your buck” you can lost 20 of fat in 12 weeks and look way better being down 200lbs of fat. In the same 12 weeks you can gain 2, maybe 3lbs of muscle if you’re a beginner and on a ton of gear. If you include the fat that you gained alongside the 2-3lbs of muscle you might actually look worse. 3. The idea that you cannot gain muscle in a calorie deficit only applies to advanced trainees and nattys. If you’re taking gear you can gain muscle mass in a deficit unless you’re already super lean and super advanced training age (OP is not). Even if you’re natural if you’re a beginner and kinda fat you can absolutely still gain muscle in a calorie deficit.
Well yeah I agree. But if the goal is to simply lose 20lbs of fat and gain 3lbs of muscle there's absolutely no need to be running gear for that, it's can be achieved naturally pretty comfortably. Again, agreed. Natural beginners can gain muscle even in a deficit but it'd be far from optimal. My original point is based around someone who is already trained looking to run their first cycle. Running a cut for a first cycle (which tends to be the best muscle building cycle for most) would be such a waste.
Gaining 3lbs of muscle in 12 weeks is only possible natty if it’s your first 12 weeks of training in your life. And even then you can’t do it while also losing 20lbs of fat like you can on gear. You’re the exact person I was talking about when I said people in this sub don’t know shit about training or PED use.
Well that's not entirely correct, 3lbs of muscle could be gained within most 12 weeks peroids during the first year of training. Also, you're the one who laid out the horrible hypothetical of running gear to lose 20lbs of fat and gain 3lbs of muscle in 12 weeks. How about they lose the 20lbs of fat first, THEN jump on gear and gain 10lbs of muscle during a slower bulk of 14-20 weeks? Anyone who uses their first cycle to cut is just lazy and looking for a quick fix which will be sub-optimal for muscle growth.
No. Everything you said is stupid. Using your first cycle to cut is a great idea. You’re completely ignoring muscle loss from cutting not on cycle. You’re overestimating natty gains. Also even following your plan (which is unrealistically generous) it would take 32 to weeks to make the progress that my plan (which is underestimating and very realistic) in 12 weeks. You basically just said to me: “why do it in 12 weeks when you can do it in 26-32 weeks instead?” Because fucking duh. I want the gains faster that’s the entire reason for taking PEDs in the first place. Fucking moron. Don’t know shit about training or PED use or that 12 weeks is shorter than 26 to 32 weeks. You’re the person I was talking about in my original comment.
Muscle loss isn’t a huge concern as an absolute beginner, you don’t really have much to lose.
That fact that you think the reason for taking PED's should be to yield results as fast as possible highlights just how uneducated you are, you're the exact person you're talking about and don't even know it. The only world in which your cycle would be optimal is if the person ONLY had 12 weeks and not a second longer. Cycle optimisation and trying to do things as safely/side effect-free as possible are just as important as the goal of building muscle. A 12 week cycle is not optimal. Shutting down your HPTA in hopes of gaining just 3lbs of muscle is far optimal and is barely worth the risk. Eating in a deficit whilst running a stack designed to build muscle during a period of time you're likely more primed for building muscle than any other in your lifetime is just a bit sad to be honest. Give yourself double the time, build 3-4x the muscle. However, if you were to suggest they run a low "trt dose" to help cut and THEN transition into a blast, then I'd be on board.
If you’re someone like OP (5’5 140lbs 19%) you aren’t going to be able to just lose fat and look good. That works once you have some muscle. I think OP should hold off on using anything until he’s gotten his noob gains, but he should probably focus on some basic strength/foundation before doing a dedicated cut. His absolute amount of body fat is low enough that the percentage will likely go down anyway. I gained 80lbs in a year at one point and stayed at approximately the same body fat % because I was a noob teenager (but done getting taller). OP isn’t a teenager, but he’s not old.
This is the correct answer. You will lose less muscle in a cal deficit if you’re on some test. Even a trt dose.
Recomp*
Moron*
Yeah you are and seem to be the one of those confidently clueless people on the internet. During a cut you attempt to maintain muscle mass while losing weight to shedding fat which is why your in caloric deficit hence why its cutting. 🤦🏿♂️ Recomp not in a deficit on cycle is adjusting your amount of fat mass to lean body mass gaining muscle gain losing fat. Jeez
Recomping is fake. It doesn’t exist.
Just like your knowledge on the topic. Doesn’t exist
27% bf here and I cycle regularly! I’m sure the changes would be much more drastic at 15% but I’m a father of 6 with a life.
Just ignore those who say things like this. If you are at 20% and above BF you can recomp pretty well
Blood pressure management is harder, E2 management is harder, and your bulking is limited because if you want to have an actual productive anabolic cycle you'll end up at like 25% BF.
When you eat more to build size you’ll add fat not just muscle. But there isn’t any real reason to lose fat nos rather than later.
I'd recommend to start your first cycle at any BF%. Testosterone will help you burn an insane amount of fat, incomprehensible to someone who's never taken a steroid before? From battle-tested veterans who run gear regularly, we won't see as insane results as someone who's never taken one before, especially as we age. Being a low body fat is extremely beneficial but not a requirement. Just have your diet on lockdown, have a decent workout 3-4 days a week, and you're good to go. Just don't be cheap when it comes to your cycle, buy everything you need because you will need it eventually, and if you don't? At least you have it if you do.
I guess bc most people don't want to "waste" the first cycle dieting. Being leaner lets you just blast and bulk.
Insulin sensitivity
Keep an eye on you BP and nips. I am running 350 test/ 210 tren (weekly pinned daily) and 40 day of Anavar, half arimidex eod. No significant sides, BP is good (take medication) but the muscle is packing on, the fat is burning off and most importantly my I am loving the gym, it is no longer a chore because I can see rewards for my work weekly. I am older so for me I don’t care, I wouldn’t want to suggest someone in their 20’s takes this kind of risk though.
You don’t need too, but it’s highly beneficial to start a bulk or growing cycle at 10–12% bodyfat, because it takes 3-5 months to add any real mass and size and if you are 15%+, you risk being 18-22%, which isn’t healthy and you won’t look so great naked like you would at 10-14% bodyfat. Most guys want a toned healthy aesthetic looking body, like 5’10” and 190lbs 12%. Bodyfat % makes or breaks a physique.
There is a lot of debate around aromatization and insulin sensitivity at body fat levels above 15%. I won’t get into it because honestly it’s a mixed bag in my opinion and a lot of people are hella dogmatic about it. One issue I do find with using PEDs at higher body fat percentages is it becomes a total mindfuck. When you’re lean and start blasting, every ounce of muscle added is easily quantifiable on your frame. When you’re on the thicker side, you just become wider for a lack of better terms. That mixed with the unavoidable water retention from using AAS, tends to drive people in a tailspin and start to make some poor choices on cycle. The first bulk cycle I did I started at 18% BF. After twenty weeks, I honestly felt fatter and more jiggly. It wasn’t until after a solid cut that I realized just how much muscle I put on.
Well good news on that. Realized we were measuring wrong on my neck. Actually I'm 16%. Well high 16 so let's just say 17%. I bloat easily so I'm a bit worried about that.
The vast majority of water retention comes down to E2 management and diet (carbs/sodium) I’m old school but I’d always everyone’s first cycle to be the tried and true 500mg/weekly of Test. That’s it. No orals. No additional compounds. Run bloodwork at the start to get a baseline. Run them again at 6 weeks to access your levels, specially E2. If high, you can take an AI. But that’s it. 20 weeks max.
Simple, I like it. Yeah the tried and true 500 seems great. But my thing is does that apply to someone as small as me? That's why I was asking and trying to start off with 3 and work myself up and see how I feel. Goal is Def 500 if no sides. My plan was blood before, blood a week or 2 during and blood after pct. Ill do 6 weeks in if its better, just wanted to do an early blood to make sure it's working.
Simply put fat makes Aromatase Enzyme, which in turn converts test to e2.. more fat more enzyme, more e2, more negative sides, less T to build muscle.
Always get into the best shape possible before starting anything . I make sure I’ve hit a wall and modify my macro/micro intake even before adding creatine. I find that failing over and over just creates a better build . If someone cannot get down to 15% bf after using diet/exercise modifications of at least least two years , it may indicate something physically wrong and an issue for you And your physician . So many factors but cycling is not the way …at all. AA use is not needed nor is being sub 15% . If it’s your goal though , then kick ass and do you 🫶💪💪
I hopen on cycle at about 20%... it was an error. I was indeed able to grow a lot of muscle, ending north of 25%bf... But I cuted for more than one year after that to reach 14%. Very very difficult to cut so long. I would never hop on cycle above 15% again. At the end of the day, I lost time.
The purpose of running a cycle is to bulk. You don’t bulk when you’re fat.
You *are* bulk when you’re fat.
Because over 15% your body becomes a massive estrogen-producing factory and dialing in AI will be expensive and pointless. Also taking androgens when you are out of shape is hard on your heart and body. The consequences are serious and developing gyno or discovering you have a heart problem after you take it makes it much worse. Learn discipline and how to diet correctly before jumping on gear as you are flat out wasting it if you take it right now. Getting to 15% without gear is simply diet and training and can be easily done.
If you think you “look great at 19%” then respect to you! Sounds like you don’t need a better physique for your goals. Back on planet earth, there’s a thing called insulin sensitivity that will determine how effective your body is at building muscle. Nobody here has mentioned it but it is probably the biggest determinate if you put on muscle or fat when in a surplus. When you are fat you are less sensitive and more resistant to insulin. Vice versa when you are lean. Why does insulin matter for bruins if muscle? Idk go read a book, but don’t ask the ppl telling you “you look great at 19%”. Why do you think the post-contest rebound phase, when a physique is ~5% bf, is when guys report THE MOST AND EASIEST muscle gains? At lower body fats your body is like a sponge for macros/nutrients and putting it into new muscle mass (with the correct stimulus).
Keep in mind I was 107lbs. I looked extremely fucking skinny, so I dirty bulked to 180lbs, looked disgusting and dropped back down to 140lbs where I don't look bad at all and have good muscle definition. I can drop to 15% i believe that'll only be about 10lbs or a little more since I'm so short
> I dirty bulked > gained 40lb past 19% body fat— about 40% by my math my dude, that’s just called “giving up”
Lmao, I was drinking mass gainers and eating burgers like a Mother fucker. Yeah I gave up, it wasn't until I started looking oily and could barely see my dick past my gut that I decided to get back to being slim. My tdee says optimal weight for me would be 135. 5lbs less than what I weigh atm. I'd probably be close to 15% at that point