Many of these suggestions involve tricking MT into play. Not every DM will allow that, so if you're going to go that route, consult with your DM.
Mystic Theurge is a tricky class because they level very awkwardly. They don't really start to shine until later levels, 8-10 depending on what you're using as your base classes. It is a much better option for adventures starting at a mid-high level than starting at level 1. But still not terrible.
What I would do, personally, would be to wrap MT around a low level spell that works well as a bread and butter staple spell, and just pump that as hard as possible. Something like Boneshaker or Scorching Ray that both classes can access. You'll get a ton of casts out of it per day even at at lower levels. A Phoenix Blooded Sorcerer combined with a Blackened Oracle would have a ton of casts of Scorching Ray per day. Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, grab some metamagic feats and then take Spell Perfection at 15.
Samborrod and VolpeLorem's suggestions work, but there's a bunch of ways of getting spells from other spell lists which don't require multiclassing at all, and a single class is generally stronger than a multiclass. A shaman with the arcane enlightenment hex and one of the alternate favored class bonuses which expand their spell list is one example, a shadow oracle is another; there's more.
How would you progress the spellcasting of both classes if you only have one class? Isnt that the entire point of the mystic theurge, tow progress the spellcasting of two classes at once?
If the spells are now on the list of one class, they are progressed by increasing \*that\* class.
With the arcane enlightenment hex you can change which spells you're stealing from the sorc/wiz list either at level-up, or if it's a wandering hex change them daily. With the alternate favored class bonuses you get a new FCB and so a new spell each level.
There really isn't much point to the mystic theurge prestige class. It does get more low level spell slots, but aside from that a single-classed character will generally be better at both types of spellcasting if built well.
Agreed. A well built Theurg only needs one casting stat and is anywhere from 1/2 full CL behind to 3/3 CL behind on their casting.
Wizards and Clerics have 4/4../4/3/2/1 spells for a total of about Max Spell Level×4-5 spells. They always get 2 more spells per day per level.
A Theurg that is 1/2 full levels behind at level 6, casts as a 5/4 character and thus has 18 spells per day. That's 6 more than the Full caster at only -1 CL on the main class. At level 14 (Max Theurg) that's 13/12 for a total of 50 spells vs 28 spells.
A Theurg that focuses on one low level spell *never* stops casting that spell. Let's say you are a Cleric who adds fireball as a domain spell. Eclesiathurge (sp?) lets you add it to your spell list.
If you are a Sorc 3/Cleric 1/Theurg 6, you can cast Fireball 6 times from Sorcerer, 4 times from Cleric, and then 5 more times from combining the spell slots. That's 15 casts of a favored 3rd level spell.
Yes but why are you suggesting taking theurge levels if you dont have two classes of spells to progress? What would be the point? You're losing class features and gaining nothing? I guess I dont really understand what point you're trying to make here
Edit: Hang on, i think i get what you're saying now, you're suggesting a single class instead of the theurge. I though you meant you should qualify for theuge with a single class. My bad
[Equipement tricks > Mirror tricks > Tricktster mirror](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/FEATS/COMBAT-FEATS/EQUIPMENT-TRICK-COMBAT/#Mirror_Tricks) let you increased by 1 the level of some spell. That give you acces to second level spell faster and so let you complete prerequisite by level 3.
Second, you should know the class is weaker than most full caster. You have a lot of spell, but got them later than other classe and still use them at a rate of 1/round. You also loose most of you class ability, or at least let them at level 1 for a long time (domain for cleric, wildshape and animal companion for druid, school for wizard, hexes for witch). And you can struggle with caster level on your secondary class.
So some tips : use full caster (half caster have strongest class ability and gain higther level spell later, both are bad new for you), use prepare spell caster if you can (they gain higther spell slot earlier) and look how to make you caster stat complementary. For instance a sorcerer can use wisdow instead of charisme with a bloodline. Good if you want a sorcerer/ druid or sorcerer/ cleric
If you take the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod you can cast a spell with the light descriptor as a 2nd level spell for all purposes. This allows you to take one level in as an arcane caster and one level as a divine caster to meet the spell level requirement of the prestige class earlier. Third level can go into your arcane or divine class depending on the CL you want to reach and spell levels you want to get, or a dip elsewhere should you feel like it. This way you can go Mystic Theurge from level 4 instead of level 7. Either way, you can get to CL 18/19 in one caster class and CL 11/12 in the other at lvl 20. For access to 9th level spells in one class and 6th level in the other, plus a bunch of spell slots that are somewhat interchangeable.
You only really miss one or two levels in your main caster class depending on how you build it. Best way to build Mystic Theurge imo.
Edit: Som good class combos would be something like Oracle/Sorcerer. Druid/Sorcerer(Wildblooded Empyreal Bloodline, to get wisdom as your sorcerer casting score) Oracle/mirror witch (get charisma as your witch casting score).
I'm currently playing a Mystic Theurge Oracle/Sorcerer with Phoenix/Elemental bloodline VMC barbarian and with some half-orc feats, a rage power and healing shenanigans. I can get over 500 HP "fast healing" and then I eat 50% of all HP damage done to the party with Shield Other. Combined with the Deathless spell I can't die from HP damage. Only save or suck insta kills can kill me. I'm a healing machine with decent damage. Bunch of nice spells on the oracle spell list for removing conditions and keeping people alive.
People saying MT sucks don't know how good it actually can be.
Druid 7 with the herbal alchemy nature bond /wizard 3/Mystic theurge 10 (in that order) can do things no-one else can.
If you want to play an actual theurge style character and not suck, the way to do it would be a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life, play a shaman, and use the Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex with the Lore Spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment hex, to get a small list of changeable sorcerer wizard spells every day.
And then just pretend that you are a theurge. You will be able to cast the large variety of spells to back up the claim, and your level won't fall behind.
undead summoning cleric/wizard theurge has a very high amount of HD of undead it can control. just be sure to have your book keeping in order and remember to separate your Cleric bucket from your Wizard bucket.
For other spells, you want things that dont depend on levels to scale as much. This will mostly be buffs and battlefield control spells, and you want to avoid anything that allows a save (most offensive spells). Theurge's strong point is lots of spells and multiple spells at once. You want to cast things like grease, pit, fly, etc.
I finished rise of the runelords with a build similar to this:
10 MT
5 cleric (Ecclesitheurge) (access to every spell of every domain of your deity, just not all in the same day)
5 wizard (spell sage) (drop the familiar (which doesnt scale with MT levels any way), and get the ability to spontaneously cast druid, bard, and cleric spells (with limitations of course) and the ability to at least once a day boost caster level of one spell by +4)
Feats in no particular order:
-skill focus knowledge arcana and eldritch heritage(arcane), to get a familiar (Spell sage gives up a familiar. but this works out better since the class feature doesn't scale with MT levels. eldritch heritage scales with CHARACTER level)
-boon companion to boost it to my Character level instead of -2 as per eldritch heritage
-improved familiar to get a fairy (i forget the exact one I chose, it was one of the pixie fairy fey ones), mostly for flavor but also to have a familiar with hands, flying, and stuff (If you dont care about having a familiar you can skip all of the above)
-the rest into item creation feats and some meta magic feats, notably extend spell and permanency.
For traits you really really want Magical Knack.
I did lawful neutral and played him as a high INT high WIS low CHA socially awkward savant who was fanatically devoted to Nethys.
You also want to make as many scrolls as possible as often and early as possible. Your available spell catalogue will very quickly balloon into absurd amounts, you just need to remember your spell effect numbers will be a little behind, so dont rely on big fire blasts or save or suck spells. you want buffs, battlefield control, a little healing, and some undead/summon shenanigans.
The result was a character that could cast almost any spell in the entire game, was a very strong magic item crafter, and was flavored as a "know it all" regarding magic things. Imagine having every buff spell in the game on your fighter at once. I'm exaggerating but that isn't far from the truth. It was fun to combine spells that very clearly weren't designed with each other in mind, like contingency and breath of life. You just have to tell yourself "I am not going to be throwing fireballs and save or suck spells", which to a lot of people is anathema to playing a caster. if it matters, our party was a tanky fighter, a healing oracle, me, and a gunslinger. We did rise of the runelords.
Edit: All of the posts saying to cheese your way into one of the spell list requirements then going full hog on one class are entirely missing the point IMO. it's 100% about breadth of spelllist, not how big your scorching ray numbers go, which you shouldn't be using any way. the whole spoint of the prestige class is "TWO SPELL LISTS LMAO", so exploit that to a silly degree, instead of trying to mitigate "my saves are bad". If you want to shoot people with lasers, play a normal arcane caster.
Many of these suggestions involve tricking MT into play. Not every DM will allow that, so if you're going to go that route, consult with your DM. Mystic Theurge is a tricky class because they level very awkwardly. They don't really start to shine until later levels, 8-10 depending on what you're using as your base classes. It is a much better option for adventures starting at a mid-high level than starting at level 1. But still not terrible. What I would do, personally, would be to wrap MT around a low level spell that works well as a bread and butter staple spell, and just pump that as hard as possible. Something like Boneshaker or Scorching Ray that both classes can access. You'll get a ton of casts out of it per day even at at lower levels. A Phoenix Blooded Sorcerer combined with a Blackened Oracle would have a ton of casts of Scorching Ray per day. Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, grab some metamagic feats and then take Spell Perfection at 15.
Wizard 7 Take Faith Magic discovery to cast 2nd level divine spell Cleric 1 Mystic Theurge 10 2 last levels in Cleric This is the way.
Samborrod and VolpeLorem's suggestions work, but there's a bunch of ways of getting spells from other spell lists which don't require multiclassing at all, and a single class is generally stronger than a multiclass. A shaman with the arcane enlightenment hex and one of the alternate favored class bonuses which expand their spell list is one example, a shadow oracle is another; there's more.
How would you progress the spellcasting of both classes if you only have one class? Isnt that the entire point of the mystic theurge, tow progress the spellcasting of two classes at once?
If the spells are now on the list of one class, they are progressed by increasing \*that\* class. With the arcane enlightenment hex you can change which spells you're stealing from the sorc/wiz list either at level-up, or if it's a wandering hex change them daily. With the alternate favored class bonuses you get a new FCB and so a new spell each level. There really isn't much point to the mystic theurge prestige class. It does get more low level spell slots, but aside from that a single-classed character will generally be better at both types of spellcasting if built well.
I would say that a well made theurge and a well made single class each have their niche and are better at different things
Agreed. A well built Theurg only needs one casting stat and is anywhere from 1/2 full CL behind to 3/3 CL behind on their casting. Wizards and Clerics have 4/4../4/3/2/1 spells for a total of about Max Spell Level×4-5 spells. They always get 2 more spells per day per level. A Theurg that is 1/2 full levels behind at level 6, casts as a 5/4 character and thus has 18 spells per day. That's 6 more than the Full caster at only -1 CL on the main class. At level 14 (Max Theurg) that's 13/12 for a total of 50 spells vs 28 spells. A Theurg that focuses on one low level spell *never* stops casting that spell. Let's say you are a Cleric who adds fireball as a domain spell. Eclesiathurge (sp?) lets you add it to your spell list. If you are a Sorc 3/Cleric 1/Theurg 6, you can cast Fireball 6 times from Sorcerer, 4 times from Cleric, and then 5 more times from combining the spell slots. That's 15 casts of a favored 3rd level spell.
Yes but why are you suggesting taking theurge levels if you dont have two classes of spells to progress? What would be the point? You're losing class features and gaining nothing? I guess I dont really understand what point you're trying to make here Edit: Hang on, i think i get what you're saying now, you're suggesting a single class instead of the theurge. I though you meant you should qualify for theuge with a single class. My bad
[Equipement tricks > Mirror tricks > Tricktster mirror](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/FEATS/COMBAT-FEATS/EQUIPMENT-TRICK-COMBAT/#Mirror_Tricks) let you increased by 1 the level of some spell. That give you acces to second level spell faster and so let you complete prerequisite by level 3. Second, you should know the class is weaker than most full caster. You have a lot of spell, but got them later than other classe and still use them at a rate of 1/round. You also loose most of you class ability, or at least let them at level 1 for a long time (domain for cleric, wildshape and animal companion for druid, school for wizard, hexes for witch). And you can struggle with caster level on your secondary class. So some tips : use full caster (half caster have strongest class ability and gain higther level spell later, both are bad new for you), use prepare spell caster if you can (they gain higther spell slot earlier) and look how to make you caster stat complementary. For instance a sorcerer can use wisdow instead of charisme with a bloodline. Good if you want a sorcerer/ druid or sorcerer/ cleric
I particularly like this early entry for an Illusion based Cleric of Silvanah. Cleric 1, Empyreal Sorcerer 2 or Cleric 2, Empyreal Sorcerer 1.
If you take the feat Equipment Trick: Sunrod you can cast a spell with the light descriptor as a 2nd level spell for all purposes. This allows you to take one level in as an arcane caster and one level as a divine caster to meet the spell level requirement of the prestige class earlier. Third level can go into your arcane or divine class depending on the CL you want to reach and spell levels you want to get, or a dip elsewhere should you feel like it. This way you can go Mystic Theurge from level 4 instead of level 7. Either way, you can get to CL 18/19 in one caster class and CL 11/12 in the other at lvl 20. For access to 9th level spells in one class and 6th level in the other, plus a bunch of spell slots that are somewhat interchangeable. You only really miss one or two levels in your main caster class depending on how you build it. Best way to build Mystic Theurge imo. Edit: Som good class combos would be something like Oracle/Sorcerer. Druid/Sorcerer(Wildblooded Empyreal Bloodline, to get wisdom as your sorcerer casting score) Oracle/mirror witch (get charisma as your witch casting score). I'm currently playing a Mystic Theurge Oracle/Sorcerer with Phoenix/Elemental bloodline VMC barbarian and with some half-orc feats, a rage power and healing shenanigans. I can get over 500 HP "fast healing" and then I eat 50% of all HP damage done to the party with Shield Other. Combined with the Deathless spell I can't die from HP damage. Only save or suck insta kills can kill me. I'm a healing machine with decent damage. Bunch of nice spells on the oracle spell list for removing conditions and keeping people alive. People saying MT sucks don't know how good it actually can be.
Druid 7 with the herbal alchemy nature bond /wizard 3/Mystic theurge 10 (in that order) can do things no-one else can. If you want to play an actual theurge style character and not suck, the way to do it would be a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life, play a shaman, and use the Wandering Spirit and Wandering Hex with the Lore Spirit and the Arcane Enlightenment hex, to get a small list of changeable sorcerer wizard spells every day. And then just pretend that you are a theurge. You will be able to cast the large variety of spells to back up the claim, and your level won't fall behind.
I play theurge 3rd party, accepted by my DM. Not overpower and doesnt suck like MT. Consult your GM.
undead summoning cleric/wizard theurge has a very high amount of HD of undead it can control. just be sure to have your book keeping in order and remember to separate your Cleric bucket from your Wizard bucket. For other spells, you want things that dont depend on levels to scale as much. This will mostly be buffs and battlefield control spells, and you want to avoid anything that allows a save (most offensive spells). Theurge's strong point is lots of spells and multiple spells at once. You want to cast things like grease, pit, fly, etc. I finished rise of the runelords with a build similar to this: 10 MT 5 cleric (Ecclesitheurge) (access to every spell of every domain of your deity, just not all in the same day) 5 wizard (spell sage) (drop the familiar (which doesnt scale with MT levels any way), and get the ability to spontaneously cast druid, bard, and cleric spells (with limitations of course) and the ability to at least once a day boost caster level of one spell by +4) Feats in no particular order: -skill focus knowledge arcana and eldritch heritage(arcane), to get a familiar (Spell sage gives up a familiar. but this works out better since the class feature doesn't scale with MT levels. eldritch heritage scales with CHARACTER level) -boon companion to boost it to my Character level instead of -2 as per eldritch heritage -improved familiar to get a fairy (i forget the exact one I chose, it was one of the pixie fairy fey ones), mostly for flavor but also to have a familiar with hands, flying, and stuff (If you dont care about having a familiar you can skip all of the above) -the rest into item creation feats and some meta magic feats, notably extend spell and permanency. For traits you really really want Magical Knack. I did lawful neutral and played him as a high INT high WIS low CHA socially awkward savant who was fanatically devoted to Nethys. You also want to make as many scrolls as possible as often and early as possible. Your available spell catalogue will very quickly balloon into absurd amounts, you just need to remember your spell effect numbers will be a little behind, so dont rely on big fire blasts or save or suck spells. you want buffs, battlefield control, a little healing, and some undead/summon shenanigans. The result was a character that could cast almost any spell in the entire game, was a very strong magic item crafter, and was flavored as a "know it all" regarding magic things. Imagine having every buff spell in the game on your fighter at once. I'm exaggerating but that isn't far from the truth. It was fun to combine spells that very clearly weren't designed with each other in mind, like contingency and breath of life. You just have to tell yourself "I am not going to be throwing fireballs and save or suck spells", which to a lot of people is anathema to playing a caster. if it matters, our party was a tanky fighter, a healing oracle, me, and a gunslinger. We did rise of the runelords. Edit: All of the posts saying to cheese your way into one of the spell list requirements then going full hog on one class are entirely missing the point IMO. it's 100% about breadth of spelllist, not how big your scorching ray numbers go, which you shouldn't be using any way. the whole spoint of the prestige class is "TWO SPELL LISTS LMAO", so exploit that to a silly degree, instead of trying to mitigate "my saves are bad". If you want to shoot people with lasers, play a normal arcane caster.