He marries her because he considers her as the mother of his child. Lizzie is also a skilled and reliable staff member and she knows his ways (a thug will be a thug). She will never betray him because she feels indebted. This.marriage of convenience could have worked if he had not consistently humiliated her.
This would have worked if Lizzie had stopped fantasizing about Thomas's love, since the only reward he has always made it clear he would give her is money.
“You're my property” “in my head I still pay you” “so keep paying me” … that's Thomas and Lizzie's lines and so yes their marriage was a work arrangement. She should have given herself respect and never subjected herself to it.
Would e worked if Lizzie knew her role. It was obvious Tommy didn’t love her and used the marriage solely for convenience. Lizzie constantly lying to herself
What seems weird to me is so many people think that Tommy loves Lizzie or that he could love May, when it is clear that he will never love another woman other than Grace. Why do they think they killed Grace and he became completely depressed and dark?
I don't know about that, he had more things in common with May, but in S4, it bothered him that she wanted him to change, I think that's when he realized that she wasn't for him, he was still going to use her like he used Lizzie, Jesse Eden, all of them. After Grace, he wasn't looking for love, but Lizzie got pregnant and he had no choice but to marry her.
Yes, but I mean if she had never gotten pregnant he would never have married her or any other woman.
Thank you for showing me how a person can be so wrong. You didn't understand anything about the show.
Yes he would have.
Being gay was illegal and any politician who was single was automatically scandalized.
It’s weird how people ignore historical context.
Jessie Eden was a real historical person. Even though they obviously take some poetic licence with the character based on her, I think marrying her to Tommy would be a stretch hahah. Some people were already pissed with the way the show portrayed her, imagine if they marry her to Tommy hahaha
At first yes I found her annoying but later on as Tommy converts to communism, Jesse would have been a great match for him. She was beautiful,smart and loved Tommy when they made out. You can see that she was a bit Disappointed when she saw her with Lizzie for the first time in a season finale or starting I forgot.
Agree. She was better as an independent character (secretary who had a crush on Tommy) and was loyal to him and his family. I think the sole purpose of that marriage was to bring ruby and her death plot-line. I also think May or Jessie were more interesting and better partners for Tommy after Grace. But probably it made sense to have lizzie because Steven Knight was clear there was no other woman for Tommy except Grace. He made them equals intellectually and emotionally. Tommy would not have gone down the road of darkness if she was alive.
Someone like Lizzie fit the bill for second wife because she was hopelessly in love with him, she had self worth issues and was indebted to him for giving her a chance in life. Tommy was never going to replace Grace for another woman and knew Lizzie is someone he “owns” and has no obligation to treat as a wife. He gave her money and protection while she was a nanny and a housekeeper for him. May or Jessie were well respected women who had self respect and an identity of their own unlike Lizzie, they would have never accepted tommy’s treatment the way lizzie did. So i think it was more of a writing decision because that marriage was doomed from the start.
Pretty sure he married her out of "obligation", since she got pregnant.
I respect that tbh.
Its not a good marriage thats for sure, but he realize its his kid aswell.
It is sad. But it's who Thomas Shelby is. And really, it's who Lizzy is as well. She's no idiot and knows full well she's not in a healthy relationship and allows his behavior.
The problem is that Jesse Eden was a real person. The narrative made use of her, but people stopped watching the series because they didn't like how it contradicted her known history.
Lizzie, of course, does not fit the image of a woman Tommy would want to marry or just date seriously.
But the fact that Tommy married Lizzie, albeit out of a sense of duty, giving his name to the child and taking responsibility, was morally correct.
Moreover, this marriage was largely based on benefits on both sides. Tommy was comfortable with a woman who ran his house, took care of his children, behaved presentably and knew her place while he was building his empire and walking around whores. In return, Lizzie received status, money and a luxurious life that she could never have imagined.
But I think the purpose of this marriage was also to reveal the character of Tommy himself and show him from a completely opposite side, compared to what he was in a relationship with Grace. It would not have been possible to do this with May or Jessie, they would never have allowed Tommy to treat them the way he treated Lizzie. Tommy might have used both of them, but he still treated them with some respect.
Tommy's relationship with Lizzie was proof and the best manifestation of how cold, cruel and indifferent Tommy could really be, because deep down he was very flawed and broken. And it was in the relationship between Tommy and Lizzie that this was best demonstrated.
John should have been with Lizzie instead of Esme, I liked Esme but she was a free spirit that didn't belong being tied down to one place. John was so caring towards Lizzie after that awful Officer assaulted her.
Lizzie fell pregnant (accidentally) and Tommy had to do the right thing. Do right by her so she’s not an unwed single mother who’s also part of the family/Peaky Blinders anyway. Despite him never being able to love her in the same way he did Grace, the fact is Tommy always appreciated and valued (and loved in his own way) Lizzie, as he declared at least once about her being the only one keeping him together at times.
And he had to do right by himself and his career because he’s a fancy politician and maybe a child out of wedlock wouldn’t have been such a big deal, but it certainly looks much better on paper for him as a politician to be married and have a family. Why would he stay single and hold out for another great love like Grace, while he could have someone he cared about and that cared about him and understood the business and was part of the family. It made perfect sense for them to get married.
As for Jesse, Tommy was never serious about her. He used her, without any remorse, to get the information about communist agitators and maybe to get in good graces with the union(s) since she was a powerful union organizer. Tommy convinced that poor woman that he was a Communist or at least shared some of their beliefs, but the reality Tommy has no political beliefs.
Tommy’s character is parasitic. He sees people for what they can offer him and how he can use them to suit his own ends. Grace aside every single woman in his life had a use and were pushed aside once they stopped being useful. Lizzie was a blinder, she knew their ways, she was a part of the business, Tommy needed a mother for his child and had gotten Lizzie pregnant. Tommy saw a good arrangement and took it. There was a part of him that respected and was grateful towards Lizzie but never love. Tommy could never be a husband or a father he had to constantly have an aim and work towards it or his PTSD caught up with him. He would know that he could never settle down just as he knew he would eventually destroy Grace had she have lived. He hates himself for it and you can never love someone while you hate yourself at the same time. Imo this is why he let Charlie go with Lizzie.
Naa...that's what Lizzie's fans say to justify Tommy's mistreatment of her, if he treats her like that he would also treat Grace the same. But that's not what they showed us on the show. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that Tommy fell in love with Grace and was a good husband to her, he was changing and healing, as Cillian Murphy said, and he was planning to leave everything illegal to have a normal life with Grace and Charlie, even the writer of the show said so, but that was boring to write and there would be no show, that's why he killed her. And with Lizzie he didn't fall in love with her, it's that simple, he didn't want to change for her, because she didn't motivate him, that's why he also cheated on her all the time, she doesn't satisfy him, neither sexually nor intellectually nor emotionally, why it's so difficult to admit that? I don't understand that.
I didn’t say he would mistreat her. I said he would eventually have destroyed her. Tommy’s lifestyle was destructive. He had enemies, business competitors that wouldn’t have just let him go, he was severely traumatized by the war which doesn’t go away just because you’re married. People like Tommy don’t have a happy ending and everyone around them suffer for it
I prefered Lizzie , over Grace
Lizzie deserve better , She was there for Tom since France
Till Tom married Grace lizzie remained patient low-key and supportive!
Lizzie was the only one without ill intention to Tommy She is the only woman Tommy seemed free to be with
it was all one sided efforts. Thats not how a relationship should be. Lizzie did this or lizzie did that does not make her an ideal candidate to be with Tommy. Grace and Tommy put equal efforts to be with each other. Tommy did not see any other woman that way. Lizzie deserves mental peace, not Tommy. John was a better man for her, he loved her when no one else saw her worthy, he respected her too but she wasn’t loyal to him.
She doesn't deserve the best. She wanted Thomas, she got him. In the last two seasons she hasn't done anything other than complain and blame Thomas for everything. It makes no sense.
And yet the show showed us that it was Grace who made him not hear the shovels on the wall, and it was not Lizzie. She was one of the prostitutes that Tommy went to. Grace is much better than Lizzie. Grace made Tommy happy, and she is the only one of all the women, who gave up a better life for a life with Tommy, and the only one who saved his life. All Lizzie did was fuck him because he paid her, like all her other clients, she didn't do anything special for him. And then he hired her as a secretary, meaning that she continued receiving money. Grace risked her life for him, when did Lizzie do something like that? Oh right...never.
I mean, not really. She was a very rich upper class white woman who ran in the same circles as Mosley, a nazi, and was close enough with him to mention her relationship with Tommy. Out of every relationship he had in the show I feel like the one with May was the least likely to work out long term.
Nah should been Mae carlton... she was a much better match for Tommy and it would have been fun watching a spoiled rich girl get dragged down into crime. I've never liked lizzy...she comes off as pathetic to me
It would've worked if Lizzie knew her place and stopped asking about everything going on in Tommy's head. I would thought Tommy and May ended up together after the death of Grace.
Tommy marrying Lizzie seemed out of character to me, since he spends the first 4 seasons ignoring and rejecting her. But I think it's also to show Tommy's dark and depressive side. His two marriages are the opposite, and how he treats his two wives are the opposite as well. With Grace he was very affectionate, he took care of her, he was faithful, he smiled all the time, and she was always his priority, before business and his family, even when they were not together. With Lizzie, it was the opposite, he was cold, distant, he cheated on her with women all the time, he rejected her, he treated her like a thing, and not like his wife, he never smiled when he saw her, never, not even when Ruby happened. , she was the priority for him. There was always something more important than Lizzie.
And it is also very notable when he finds out about the pregnancies, with Grace, his life changed in that moment, he no longer wants to die, he is frustrated because he almost got everything with her and he wants to marry her on that same day. With Lizzie, his miserable face when he finds out says it all, his life did not change because of the news, since the second he starts talking about something else, he does not want to marry her or have a relationship with her, he tells her that the company is going to pay her, and he is going to buy her a house. (He marries her a year later, out of obligation). After that scene, Tommy has a conversation with Ada, he only talks about business with her and how he is going to seduce Jesse Eden, and he is still as depressed as ever, he probably must have even forgotten about the news.
It is very evident that the marriage to Lizzie is to show that just as Tommy can be very loving with the woman he really loves, and can love someone without being selfish, loving unconditionally, he can also be very cruel to someone he does not love and is not happy with the person.
Jessie Eden was just a tool for Tommy's political ascension. I don't think there ever was the slightest romantic interest on his part. Lizzie is a balanced character that knows him enough for him not to have to pretend to be someone else, she knows the family, the business, she's good with kids, she has experience with men and danger, so she is reliable for him.
Naa..Lizzie had a fantasy that she was going to replace Grace and they were going to have the same relationship and he was going to fall madly in love with her, which is why in the last two seasons she was so bitter and frustrated all the time. But the reality is that Tommy would never have married her if she had never gotten pregnant, because he never saw her that way, he always ignored her, and it continued like that throughout the marriage.
He always ignored her??? He literally declared to the family that on some nights she was the only one keeping him together and it didn’t just mean sex. Lizzie is a former SW which means she sees and understands men better than the average women. She never had any illusions. She needed her safety in their antiquated society where being an unwed mother can lead to disenfranchisement. She knew it. Tommy knew it. Everyone else knew it. And there was no reason to send her off or discard her because at that point she was already an integral part of the family and the business. Marrying her was easy and without drama which is why they didn’t make a big deal about it.
No-one is saying he loved her and Grace in the same way. But to imply that she was that naive or that Tommy didn’t think anything of her is completely off the mark. He literally blew up that mansion for her. Oh yeah there were reasons to blow it up, but Lizzie was the one that said “I wish I could blow it up.” And Tommy made it happen. There was love there. And respect. And all that started with him being able to trust her completely with his business and her accepting him for what he is.
Blowing up the mansion bit was just a foreshadow. Similar to s5 line by Mosley where he told Tommy to drink less. in s6 he quit drinking, does that imply Tommy took health advise from Mosley? He didn’t blew it for lizzie. There were far more important reasons, Charlie wanted to leave and secondly he was planning to blow up his other house anyway for political reasons. When Charlie said he wanted to leave, Tommy tells him and lizzie can stay in the other house which he was going to blow up. Arrow house was for Grace and Charlie and since both were not around, he had deep emotional reasons to let it go.
Equating Moseley with Lizzie doesn’t seem right to me and I don’t know why it’s so farfetched that Tommy took Lizzie’s feelings and wishes into account when he made decisions. It doesn’t mean he loves Grace less. It doesn’t mean he isn’t also thinking about Grace. People are jumping all sorts of hoops to invalidate Lizzie, invalidate her importance to Tommy and the family, and invalidate their relationship.
And you are making a great effort to validate a romantic love that Thomas never had for Lizzie. Thomas knows everything he did and sometimes he tries to redeem himself, this is part of his humanization process and not that of a man in love . Even though Thomas blew up the house for her and that means absolutely nothing compared to him having: betrayed her, abandoned her during the entire period of mourning, sat her down with the whole family and introduced Duke and while she grumbled and he I simply rebutted all of her criticisms, that he chose to save the world instead of marriage, etc... there are 1000 things that prove that Thomas was never a husband for Lizzie, but we have to stick to the isolated scene that leaves the margins of Thomas' interpretation exploding the damn house who actually wanted to live in it to say that he really loved Lizzie.
The house didn't exploit it for Lizzie lol, much less it was an act of love, what show did you see? And he himself told the reason. And yes, he ignore her almost all the time. That phrase didn't mean much, it was just a thank you for being there, but nothing more than that, it wasn't something romantic obviously. S4 and their relationship did not change, he had sexual relations with her from time to time, as well as with other women, May, Jesse Eden, prostitutes. If you watch the show, after losing Grace, Tommy changes completely and is depressed all the time. He marries Lizzie, and everything is still the same, he has sexual relations with her but also with other women, and instead of paying her money, he pays her with the luxuries of living in the mansion and being his wife, but their relationship does not change, in fact, he himself tells her how he sees the relationship with her, she is property for him, he always saw her as an employee whom he uses whenever he wants, because she allows herself to be used too. She is frustrated because Tommy is not a normal person. She lives complaining about him all the time, with Linda and Ada. She is the typical "I can change him" but what she doesn't realize is that Tommy doesn't want to change, much less for her. He couldn't even be with her when Ruby died, he kept rejecting her, until she got tired of it, and realized that without Ruby nothing united them. She told him herself, you never let me in. So no, Tommy doesn't love her, he never loved her, she was someone he used, and in the end he realizes that Lizzie was a good person who didn't deserve that, that's why he regrets marrying her, in the end he was able to respect her as a human being, but never as his wife.
but lizzie started acting up in s5 and s6. She knew about the dangers in his life and business. Even though she decided to marry him as a “balanced person”, we see her frustrated and annoyed about her daughter wellbeing in s5. She should have taken a stand but she was all bark no bite!! Next day she changed her stance to accept she is his property, that’s when i think her behaviour and arc went downhill for me. S6 was even more frustrating because she kept on cribbing and complaining about a life she choses. Tommy was not in his right state of mind and for someone like her who had been there for so long, her constant complaining was out of character. She was being a hindrance rather than a reliable partner.
Literally the most correct answer and I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. Maybe young idealistic Tommy before the war could have believed in what he no doubt now thinks are (political) fairytales and built a relationship and those values, but present day he is basically a monster. He is dangerous and heartless and cold hearted and will do anything and everything to ensure his and his family’s future, after witnessing the war and experiencing and understanding the class inequalities in their society. Lizzy was probably an easy decision after she fell pregnant, or maybe even if she didn’t fall pregnant. The man is building an empire, by any means necessary.
i think lizzie was a perfectly convenient decision for him. He had someone he trusted to take care of his son and secondly he can fck around and go use on business and politics as he had no real obligation to be a husband. As long as he was providing money and protection. But i think lizzie’s arc took a weird turn on s5/6. She was familiar with his life, business and family. We even hear her say she chose this life. Yet she fell short when taking a stance as a mother. She was kicking and screaming about guns around the house and her daughter but the. changed her stance and seduces tommy to agree that she is a property. Thats when it went downhill. And s6 was more of the same where she was beating a dead horse. Expecting tommy to just change and stop doing what he does and live on a mountain with her.
I think Steven Knight is terrible at writing female characters so any of the options wouldn't have worked really in the long run, even Grace. It's the same problem that happens in all gangster/mob related movies and tv shows. The writers never know how to add in female characters of substance in a mob world. They are either the "wife" role to give the mob boss a softer side and makes him vulnerable and they are pure and innocent or they are vixens that the mob boss cheats on the wife with.
Getting off my soap box and back to Peaky specifically, I 100% think there was a version of Tommy and Grace the show could have sustained throughout the run of the show without him eventually cheating, etc. Grace was a very poorly developed character after the first season and was given no agency beyond Tommy. She started as an agent of the crown and was shown to be willing to kill if need be and then just...nothing. While I admit to being a Tommy & Grace fan, I totally get why fans don't like the character (also...Annabelle isn't the best actress next to Cillian.)
I don't know what the best option for Tommy would have been after Grace died. In some ways, I think the Lizzie option made the most sense, but I think SK could have written it in a way that wasn't so terrible for the Lizzie character. Had it fully a marriage of convenience for both and have her cheat as well (if SK decided to not make it a marriage of love).
Really, I think the show should have a writers room and not just SK writing the scripts. I think S1 is the best and feels the most balanced because he had other writers that season.
That is precisely why Grace was perfect for Tommy, because she was not innocent, she had her dark side just like Tommy, she was also ambitious, intelligent, Steven Knight wrote her as Tommy's equal, and Cillian Murphy and Annabelle Wallis had too much chemistry and she was perfect playing Grace. That's why the story is so remembered and so well written, that even Steven Knight wrote a musical about the story of Tommy and Grace, after S6, he knew that people wanted to see that story back, and not the story between Tommy and Lizzie or Tommy and May. Because it was the story with Grace that people caught their attention and loved. I think they wasted a good story and also an incredible chemistry between the actors, by having killed her, she should have been there until the end, and showing her how she slowly becomes darker with Tommy and the Shelbys, that would have been much more interesting, than to see Tommy and Lizzie and how they are the two miserable together and seemed like they would hate each other, plus the actors had zero chemistry.
Tommy wasn’t the same caliber as May and he could never blend in to her life. I believe Tommy felt a connection with Lizzie because they both came from the bottom. Whether that means he loved her or not is another question. But I think he felt a bond with her because she was his “people.”
he was more sensitive and respectful about May. He would have never have mistreated her. With lizzie he could openly cheat and humiliate her because he felt he owned her.
May Carlton was probably the best option to be honest - everyone knows that Tommy should’ve got out, but with May he would’ve been forced to.. he could’ve abandoned the most brazen of his criminal enterprise (kept Arthur running that side of things discreetly) and pursued his political ambition completely.
He marries her because he considers her as the mother of his child. Lizzie is also a skilled and reliable staff member and she knows his ways (a thug will be a thug). She will never betray him because she feels indebted. This.marriage of convenience could have worked if he had not consistently humiliated her.
This would have worked if Lizzie had stopped fantasizing about Thomas's love, since the only reward he has always made it clear he would give her is money.
[удалено]
“You're my property” “in my head I still pay you” “so keep paying me” … that's Thomas and Lizzie's lines and so yes their marriage was a work arrangement. She should have given herself respect and never subjected herself to it.
Agree, she married for love and he signed a work arrangement.
Would e worked if Lizzie knew her role. It was obvious Tommy didn’t love her and used the marriage solely for convenience. Lizzie constantly lying to herself
So weird that so many people completely misunderstand how tommy was playing Jesse and was never romantically interested in her at all
I am tired.
What seems weird to me is so many people think that Tommy loves Lizzie or that he could love May, when it is clear that he will never love another woman other than Grace. Why do they think they killed Grace and he became completely depressed and dark?
I think he values and feels comfortable with Lizzie in a way he couldn’t ever with May.
I don't know about that, he had more things in common with May, but in S4, it bothered him that she wanted him to change, I think that's when he realized that she wasn't for him, he was still going to use her like he used Lizzie, Jesse Eden, all of them. After Grace, he wasn't looking for love, but Lizzie got pregnant and he had no choice but to marry her.
He had a choice. He wanted her as his wife to bolster his political career and increase his power.
Yes, but I mean if she had never gotten pregnant he would never have married her or any other woman. Thank you for showing me how a person can be so wrong. You didn't understand anything about the show.
Yes he would have. Being gay was illegal and any politician who was single was automatically scandalized. It’s weird how people ignore historical context.
Wtf? ??? Ah, you're one of those people, it's really weird how you watch the show and have those interpretations.
Yes I’m one of the people who accurately interpret the show and related history. You’re welcome.
Tommy marrying Jessie would have been really weird considering she was a real person.
Jessie Eden was a real historical person. Even though they obviously take some poetic licence with the character based on her, I think marrying her to Tommy would be a stretch hahah. Some people were already pissed with the way the show portrayed her, imagine if they marry her to Tommy hahaha
At first yes I found her annoying but later on as Tommy converts to communism, Jesse would have been a great match for him. She was beautiful,smart and loved Tommy when they made out. You can see that she was a bit Disappointed when she saw her with Lizzie for the first time in a season finale or starting I forgot.
Tommy never converted to communism lol
Right?! He was spying on the communists/fascists and reporting on their activities to Churchill. He saw both the communists and fascists as dangerous.
What show did you watch? It’s either a very different one from the rest of us or you seriously missed all the intricacies of it
Yep agreed, Jesse Eden was a better match than Lizzie even May Carleton was also a good prospect in my opinion.
I never understood what happened with May in season 4 - did she just visit for no reason
Yeah me neither, just disappeared
He shouldn’t have married anyone honestly, they all just targets for his enemies.
Bruh😂
Agree. She was better as an independent character (secretary who had a crush on Tommy) and was loyal to him and his family. I think the sole purpose of that marriage was to bring ruby and her death plot-line. I also think May or Jessie were more interesting and better partners for Tommy after Grace. But probably it made sense to have lizzie because Steven Knight was clear there was no other woman for Tommy except Grace. He made them equals intellectually and emotionally. Tommy would not have gone down the road of darkness if she was alive. Someone like Lizzie fit the bill for second wife because she was hopelessly in love with him, she had self worth issues and was indebted to him for giving her a chance in life. Tommy was never going to replace Grace for another woman and knew Lizzie is someone he “owns” and has no obligation to treat as a wife. He gave her money and protection while she was a nanny and a housekeeper for him. May or Jessie were well respected women who had self respect and an identity of their own unlike Lizzie, they would have never accepted tommy’s treatment the way lizzie did. So i think it was more of a writing decision because that marriage was doomed from the start.
Yup he never treated her like his wife. He didn't love her. He told Lizzie himself that in his mind he was still paying her.
Pretty sure he married her out of "obligation", since she got pregnant. I respect that tbh. Its not a good marriage thats for sure, but he realize its his kid aswell.
Because some nights it was Lizzy who stopped Thomas' heart from breaking. No one else.
Hahaha right...that's why he cheats on her and mistreats her all the time, and calls her property.
No one touches his property.
🤦🏻♀️ I'm sorry but that is just sad.
It is sad. But it's who Thomas Shelby is. And really, it's who Lizzy is as well. She's no idiot and knows full well she's not in a healthy relationship and allows his behavior.
Ahh agree with that.
But he also pays her in his head!
The problem is that Jesse Eden was a real person. The narrative made use of her, but people stopped watching the series because they didn't like how it contradicted her known history.
Lizzie, of course, does not fit the image of a woman Tommy would want to marry or just date seriously. But the fact that Tommy married Lizzie, albeit out of a sense of duty, giving his name to the child and taking responsibility, was morally correct. Moreover, this marriage was largely based on benefits on both sides. Tommy was comfortable with a woman who ran his house, took care of his children, behaved presentably and knew her place while he was building his empire and walking around whores. In return, Lizzie received status, money and a luxurious life that she could never have imagined. But I think the purpose of this marriage was also to reveal the character of Tommy himself and show him from a completely opposite side, compared to what he was in a relationship with Grace. It would not have been possible to do this with May or Jessie, they would never have allowed Tommy to treat them the way he treated Lizzie. Tommy might have used both of them, but he still treated them with some respect. Tommy's relationship with Lizzie was proof and the best manifestation of how cold, cruel and indifferent Tommy could really be, because deep down he was very flawed and broken. And it was in the relationship between Tommy and Lizzie that this was best demonstrated.
John should have been with Lizzie instead of Esme, I liked Esme but she was a free spirit that didn't belong being tied down to one place. John was so caring towards Lizzie after that awful Officer assaulted her.
Nahh man John and Esme were perfect
Lizzie never liked john.
Lizzie kept it 100.
Lizzie fell pregnant (accidentally) and Tommy had to do the right thing. Do right by her so she’s not an unwed single mother who’s also part of the family/Peaky Blinders anyway. Despite him never being able to love her in the same way he did Grace, the fact is Tommy always appreciated and valued (and loved in his own way) Lizzie, as he declared at least once about her being the only one keeping him together at times. And he had to do right by himself and his career because he’s a fancy politician and maybe a child out of wedlock wouldn’t have been such a big deal, but it certainly looks much better on paper for him as a politician to be married and have a family. Why would he stay single and hold out for another great love like Grace, while he could have someone he cared about and that cared about him and understood the business and was part of the family. It made perfect sense for them to get married. As for Jesse, Tommy was never serious about her. He used her, without any remorse, to get the information about communist agitators and maybe to get in good graces with the union(s) since she was a powerful union organizer. Tommy convinced that poor woman that he was a Communist or at least shared some of their beliefs, but the reality Tommy has no political beliefs.
Tommy’s character is parasitic. He sees people for what they can offer him and how he can use them to suit his own ends. Grace aside every single woman in his life had a use and were pushed aside once they stopped being useful. Lizzie was a blinder, she knew their ways, she was a part of the business, Tommy needed a mother for his child and had gotten Lizzie pregnant. Tommy saw a good arrangement and took it. There was a part of him that respected and was grateful towards Lizzie but never love. Tommy could never be a husband or a father he had to constantly have an aim and work towards it or his PTSD caught up with him. He would know that he could never settle down just as he knew he would eventually destroy Grace had she have lived. He hates himself for it and you can never love someone while you hate yourself at the same time. Imo this is why he let Charlie go with Lizzie.
Naa...that's what Lizzie's fans say to justify Tommy's mistreatment of her, if he treats her like that he would also treat Grace the same. But that's not what they showed us on the show. I don't know why it's so hard to admit that Tommy fell in love with Grace and was a good husband to her, he was changing and healing, as Cillian Murphy said, and he was planning to leave everything illegal to have a normal life with Grace and Charlie, even the writer of the show said so, but that was boring to write and there would be no show, that's why he killed her. And with Lizzie he didn't fall in love with her, it's that simple, he didn't want to change for her, because she didn't motivate him, that's why he also cheated on her all the time, she doesn't satisfy him, neither sexually nor intellectually nor emotionally, why it's so difficult to admit that? I don't understand that.
I didn’t say he would mistreat her. I said he would eventually have destroyed her. Tommy’s lifestyle was destructive. He had enemies, business competitors that wouldn’t have just let him go, he was severely traumatized by the war which doesn’t go away just because you’re married. People like Tommy don’t have a happy ending and everyone around them suffer for it
I prefered Lizzie , over Grace Lizzie deserve better , She was there for Tom since France Till Tom married Grace lizzie remained patient low-key and supportive! Lizzie was the only one without ill intention to Tommy She is the only woman Tommy seemed free to be with
it was all one sided efforts. Thats not how a relationship should be. Lizzie did this or lizzie did that does not make her an ideal candidate to be with Tommy. Grace and Tommy put equal efforts to be with each other. Tommy did not see any other woman that way. Lizzie deserves mental peace, not Tommy. John was a better man for her, he loved her when no one else saw her worthy, he respected her too but she wasn’t loyal to him.
She doesn't deserve the best. She wanted Thomas, she got him. In the last two seasons she hasn't done anything other than complain and blame Thomas for everything. It makes no sense.
And yet the show showed us that it was Grace who made him not hear the shovels on the wall, and it was not Lizzie. She was one of the prostitutes that Tommy went to. Grace is much better than Lizzie. Grace made Tommy happy, and she is the only one of all the women, who gave up a better life for a life with Tommy, and the only one who saved his life. All Lizzie did was fuck him because he paid her, like all her other clients, she didn't do anything special for him. And then he hired her as a secretary, meaning that she continued receiving money. Grace risked her life for him, when did Lizzie do something like that? Oh right...never.
I'm re-watching the show rn and imo Tommy should've ended up with May Carleton 🥹
I mean, not really. She was a very rich upper class white woman who ran in the same circles as Mosley, a nazi, and was close enough with him to mention her relationship with Tommy. Out of every relationship he had in the show I feel like the one with May was the least likely to work out long term.
She had that beautiful mouth! And she loved him deeply.
He should have ended up with Jesse Eden.. she was perfecttt.
Thomas had no interest in Jesse Eden romantically although he did respect her on a level as he didn’t want to see her get arrested or hurt.
True! Plus that gal is Archie’s wife irl
Nah should been Mae carlton... she was a much better match for Tommy and it would have been fun watching a spoiled rich girl get dragged down into crime. I've never liked lizzy...she comes off as pathetic to me
It would've worked if Lizzie knew her place and stopped asking about everything going on in Tommy's head. I would thought Tommy and May ended up together after the death of Grace.
Tommy marrying Lizzie seemed out of character to me, since he spends the first 4 seasons ignoring and rejecting her. But I think it's also to show Tommy's dark and depressive side. His two marriages are the opposite, and how he treats his two wives are the opposite as well. With Grace he was very affectionate, he took care of her, he was faithful, he smiled all the time, and she was always his priority, before business and his family, even when they were not together. With Lizzie, it was the opposite, he was cold, distant, he cheated on her with women all the time, he rejected her, he treated her like a thing, and not like his wife, he never smiled when he saw her, never, not even when Ruby happened. , she was the priority for him. There was always something more important than Lizzie. And it is also very notable when he finds out about the pregnancies, with Grace, his life changed in that moment, he no longer wants to die, he is frustrated because he almost got everything with her and he wants to marry her on that same day. With Lizzie, his miserable face when he finds out says it all, his life did not change because of the news, since the second he starts talking about something else, he does not want to marry her or have a relationship with her, he tells her that the company is going to pay her, and he is going to buy her a house. (He marries her a year later, out of obligation). After that scene, Tommy has a conversation with Ada, he only talks about business with her and how he is going to seduce Jesse Eden, and he is still as depressed as ever, he probably must have even forgotten about the news. It is very evident that the marriage to Lizzie is to show that just as Tommy can be very loving with the woman he really loves, and can love someone without being selfish, loving unconditionally, he can also be very cruel to someone he does not love and is not happy with the person.
Jessie Eden was just a tool for Tommy's political ascension. I don't think there ever was the slightest romantic interest on his part. Lizzie is a balanced character that knows him enough for him not to have to pretend to be someone else, she knows the family, the business, she's good with kids, she has experience with men and danger, so she is reliable for him.
Naa..Lizzie had a fantasy that she was going to replace Grace and they were going to have the same relationship and he was going to fall madly in love with her, which is why in the last two seasons she was so bitter and frustrated all the time. But the reality is that Tommy would never have married her if she had never gotten pregnant, because he never saw her that way, he always ignored her, and it continued like that throughout the marriage.
He always ignored her??? He literally declared to the family that on some nights she was the only one keeping him together and it didn’t just mean sex. Lizzie is a former SW which means she sees and understands men better than the average women. She never had any illusions. She needed her safety in their antiquated society where being an unwed mother can lead to disenfranchisement. She knew it. Tommy knew it. Everyone else knew it. And there was no reason to send her off or discard her because at that point she was already an integral part of the family and the business. Marrying her was easy and without drama which is why they didn’t make a big deal about it. No-one is saying he loved her and Grace in the same way. But to imply that she was that naive or that Tommy didn’t think anything of her is completely off the mark. He literally blew up that mansion for her. Oh yeah there were reasons to blow it up, but Lizzie was the one that said “I wish I could blow it up.” And Tommy made it happen. There was love there. And respect. And all that started with him being able to trust her completely with his business and her accepting him for what he is.
Blowing up the mansion bit was just a foreshadow. Similar to s5 line by Mosley where he told Tommy to drink less. in s6 he quit drinking, does that imply Tommy took health advise from Mosley? He didn’t blew it for lizzie. There were far more important reasons, Charlie wanted to leave and secondly he was planning to blow up his other house anyway for political reasons. When Charlie said he wanted to leave, Tommy tells him and lizzie can stay in the other house which he was going to blow up. Arrow house was for Grace and Charlie and since both were not around, he had deep emotional reasons to let it go.
Equating Moseley with Lizzie doesn’t seem right to me and I don’t know why it’s so farfetched that Tommy took Lizzie’s feelings and wishes into account when he made decisions. It doesn’t mean he loves Grace less. It doesn’t mean he isn’t also thinking about Grace. People are jumping all sorts of hoops to invalidate Lizzie, invalidate her importance to Tommy and the family, and invalidate their relationship.
And you are making a great effort to validate a romantic love that Thomas never had for Lizzie. Thomas knows everything he did and sometimes he tries to redeem himself, this is part of his humanization process and not that of a man in love . Even though Thomas blew up the house for her and that means absolutely nothing compared to him having: betrayed her, abandoned her during the entire period of mourning, sat her down with the whole family and introduced Duke and while she grumbled and he I simply rebutted all of her criticisms, that he chose to save the world instead of marriage, etc... there are 1000 things that prove that Thomas was never a husband for Lizzie, but we have to stick to the isolated scene that leaves the margins of Thomas' interpretation exploding the damn house who actually wanted to live in it to say that he really loved Lizzie.
The house didn't exploit it for Lizzie lol, much less it was an act of love, what show did you see? And he himself told the reason. And yes, he ignore her almost all the time. That phrase didn't mean much, it was just a thank you for being there, but nothing more than that, it wasn't something romantic obviously. S4 and their relationship did not change, he had sexual relations with her from time to time, as well as with other women, May, Jesse Eden, prostitutes. If you watch the show, after losing Grace, Tommy changes completely and is depressed all the time. He marries Lizzie, and everything is still the same, he has sexual relations with her but also with other women, and instead of paying her money, he pays her with the luxuries of living in the mansion and being his wife, but their relationship does not change, in fact, he himself tells her how he sees the relationship with her, she is property for him, he always saw her as an employee whom he uses whenever he wants, because she allows herself to be used too. She is frustrated because Tommy is not a normal person. She lives complaining about him all the time, with Linda and Ada. She is the typical "I can change him" but what she doesn't realize is that Tommy doesn't want to change, much less for her. He couldn't even be with her when Ruby died, he kept rejecting her, until she got tired of it, and realized that without Ruby nothing united them. She told him herself, you never let me in. So no, Tommy doesn't love her, he never loved her, she was someone he used, and in the end he realizes that Lizzie was a good person who didn't deserve that, that's why he regrets marrying her, in the end he was able to respect her as a human being, but never as his wife.
but lizzie started acting up in s5 and s6. She knew about the dangers in his life and business. Even though she decided to marry him as a “balanced person”, we see her frustrated and annoyed about her daughter wellbeing in s5. She should have taken a stand but she was all bark no bite!! Next day she changed her stance to accept she is his property, that’s when i think her behaviour and arc went downhill for me. S6 was even more frustrating because she kept on cribbing and complaining about a life she choses. Tommy was not in his right state of mind and for someone like her who had been there for so long, her constant complaining was out of character. She was being a hindrance rather than a reliable partner.
Literally the most correct answer and I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. Maybe young idealistic Tommy before the war could have believed in what he no doubt now thinks are (political) fairytales and built a relationship and those values, but present day he is basically a monster. He is dangerous and heartless and cold hearted and will do anything and everything to ensure his and his family’s future, after witnessing the war and experiencing and understanding the class inequalities in their society. Lizzy was probably an easy decision after she fell pregnant, or maybe even if she didn’t fall pregnant. The man is building an empire, by any means necessary.
i think lizzie was a perfectly convenient decision for him. He had someone he trusted to take care of his son and secondly he can fck around and go use on business and politics as he had no real obligation to be a husband. As long as he was providing money and protection. But i think lizzie’s arc took a weird turn on s5/6. She was familiar with his life, business and family. We even hear her say she chose this life. Yet she fell short when taking a stance as a mother. She was kicking and screaming about guns around the house and her daughter but the. changed her stance and seduces tommy to agree that she is a property. Thats when it went downhill. And s6 was more of the same where she was beating a dead horse. Expecting tommy to just change and stop doing what he does and live on a mountain with her.
I think Steven Knight is terrible at writing female characters so any of the options wouldn't have worked really in the long run, even Grace. It's the same problem that happens in all gangster/mob related movies and tv shows. The writers never know how to add in female characters of substance in a mob world. They are either the "wife" role to give the mob boss a softer side and makes him vulnerable and they are pure and innocent or they are vixens that the mob boss cheats on the wife with. Getting off my soap box and back to Peaky specifically, I 100% think there was a version of Tommy and Grace the show could have sustained throughout the run of the show without him eventually cheating, etc. Grace was a very poorly developed character after the first season and was given no agency beyond Tommy. She started as an agent of the crown and was shown to be willing to kill if need be and then just...nothing. While I admit to being a Tommy & Grace fan, I totally get why fans don't like the character (also...Annabelle isn't the best actress next to Cillian.) I don't know what the best option for Tommy would have been after Grace died. In some ways, I think the Lizzie option made the most sense, but I think SK could have written it in a way that wasn't so terrible for the Lizzie character. Had it fully a marriage of convenience for both and have her cheat as well (if SK decided to not make it a marriage of love). Really, I think the show should have a writers room and not just SK writing the scripts. I think S1 is the best and feels the most balanced because he had other writers that season.
That is precisely why Grace was perfect for Tommy, because she was not innocent, she had her dark side just like Tommy, she was also ambitious, intelligent, Steven Knight wrote her as Tommy's equal, and Cillian Murphy and Annabelle Wallis had too much chemistry and she was perfect playing Grace. That's why the story is so remembered and so well written, that even Steven Knight wrote a musical about the story of Tommy and Grace, after S6, he knew that people wanted to see that story back, and not the story between Tommy and Lizzie or Tommy and May. Because it was the story with Grace that people caught their attention and loved. I think they wasted a good story and also an incredible chemistry between the actors, by having killed her, she should have been there until the end, and showing her how she slowly becomes darker with Tommy and the Shelbys, that would have been much more interesting, than to see Tommy and Lizzie and how they are the two miserable together and seemed like they would hate each other, plus the actors had zero chemistry.
Tommy wasn’t the same caliber as May and he could never blend in to her life. I believe Tommy felt a connection with Lizzie because they both came from the bottom. Whether that means he loved her or not is another question. But I think he felt a bond with her because she was his “people.”
he was more sensitive and respectful about May. He would have never have mistreated her. With lizzie he could openly cheat and humiliate her because he felt he owned her.
He into her. He just not THAT into her.
I was disappointed they got married, but only because I was holding out hope that May would come back into the picture lol
May Carlton was probably the best option to be honest - everyone knows that Tommy should’ve got out, but with May he would’ve been forced to.. he could’ve abandoned the most brazen of his criminal enterprise (kept Arthur running that side of things discreetly) and pursued his political ambition completely.