>Futaba: Ugh, you're useless.
>Akechi: That is quite harsh.
You just know he was seething here lmao.
But these chats are interesting. Maybe I'm reading his tone wrong, but I like how he sounds offended at the idea that the culprit is killing for sheer pleasure. As if *that's* all he's dedicated the last two years of his life towards. Ironic considering that that's how a lot of P5 fans come out thinking of him too.
YES. Exactly. A lot of people assume he does it for pleasure, and I think that comes down to misreading his expressions and mannerisms on 11/20 and 11/21 (as well as the engine room).
But as I mentioned in the linked post, there's a real significance to his mask *breaking* after his fight on the ship. Akechi is a character who uses masks for different situations. Even the conversation in Shido's office was a mask, yet you still get those moments of him lamenting about how if Wakaba had simply agreed to work w/ Shido, it wouldn't have come to this, etc.
I think he's a lot more shaken up about his crimes than he would ever *dare* admit, because he uses sunk cost to justify everything (and tbh, Shido has his cleaner and has so much control over the media/law/etc that even if he *wanted* to leave, he'd be screwed).
He basically got set up to fail, got molded into a child assassin, and made up all these excuses behind what he "had" to do, only to find out that there was another way all along... which tbh I think *absolutely* influenced his jealousy, too. Joker got the magical cat guide who could teach him what to do. Akechi got Shido.
I agree. It's like people see the manic, murderous Akechi in the engine room as his "true self." But that's him at his absolute lowest. That's his emotional breakdown where all the ugliest parts of himself rush to the surface. Was he giddy at the opportunity to kill Joker (and the PTs) in that moment? Yeah. Is that how he is all the time? Definitely not.
In my view, Akechi doesn't really regret the murders themselves. He's not bothered by the individual people he killed (though he didn't particularly *like* doing it either, contrary to popular belief). He more so regrets the way his life turned out and the path that led him to commit them. Since, like you said, he realizes too late that there had always been another way.
I think people do this because of the twist characters in P3 and P4 setting a certain precedent, when if you dig a little deeper, those moments are just masks that he dons, and we only see his true feelings shine through in the engine room *after* he's been beaten down. (And even P4's twist character has more depth/cultural context that gets overlooked a lot.)
Though I do think him lamenting not meeting Joker sooner and how Joker's heart is free are 100% genuine. Interestingly, his engine room dialogue also changes [depending on if you rank 10 him in Royal] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/714830679868882944/shido-is-less-important-to-akechi-with-the?source=share), which is a cool, overlooked detail.
I’d be interested in hearing more about the context behind the twist villain of p4 if you have a good source for that on hand, I don’t hear that character talked about as much anymore since p4 got mostly overshadowed by p5 and p3R.
So a lot of it boils down to [Japanese work culture] (https://www.ejable.com/japan-corner/working-in-japan/japanese-work-culture/) and the bubble bursting. A more critical look at the work culture can be found [here] (https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/karoshi-deep-look-japans-unforgiving-working-culture). His nihilism toward the world overlaps a *ton* with what can be collectively called the "lost decades" as well as the social pressure for success in school leading to success in the workplace. There's a pretty good P3 video that taps into some of this in a P3 context [here] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mihv4XnAx9Y) by LadyVirgilia.
This doesn't justify his actions, but it does explain a lot of his mindset, as someone who worked hard in school with pressure from his parents to excel (this comes up in his Social Link), only to get sent out to Inaba after he screwed up in the city. He still had *way* more agency in his choices, and was an adult to boot, but there was definitely some cultural commentary at play with him, and he was kind of meant to be a cautionary tale for players.
It’s amazing how many people ignore this chat log and insist that Akechi is nothing more than a psychopath who loves killing random people for shiggles.
Yep. Classic case of, "*I* don't like this character, so I'm going to assume the absolute worst about him to feel justified in my dislike for him. How dare *you* like Akechi, the serial killer psychopath who has never felt love or a shred of remorse his entire life? Fangirls, smh..."
I’ve had people accuse me of having a thing for irl serial killers just because I like a fictional assassin in a video game. I wish I were kidding but I’m not.
Oh, I’ve read this. It doesn’t change the fact that Akechi is the only reason why Shido could plan this stuff out in the first place.
Akechi went to Shido and was like “hey guy, what if I told you I could make all of your problems disappear?” and it was only then that Shido even began his grand plan. But Akechi (and the game itself, really) wants us to ignore that fact.
“But Shido *made* him do it!” Please. If Akechi never approached Shido, Shido would’ve never known about Akechi. He is not blameless.
> He is not blameless
Nobody is saying he is.
> Akechi went to Shido and was like “hey guy, what if I told you I could make all of your problems disappear?” and it was only then that Shido even began his grand plan. But Akechi (and the game itself, really) wants us to ignore that fact.
Akechi went to Shido and told him he can use the Call of Chaos to drive Shadows berserk. Shido then taught him how to use that power to murder people. This is practically spelled out to you during their conversation/info dump. The game isn’t trying to make you ignore anything.
Akechi could’ve just not approached Shido and Shido never would’ve even known that Akechi even existed. Or that >!Akechi might be his bastard son. Truly the winning move in the “game” was to not even play it, but Akechi did and he got played. I’m not gonna feel bad for him for that.!<
> Akechi could’ve just not approached Shido and Shido never would’ve even known that Akechi even existed.
Well if that’s what you believe then, with all due respect, you don’t understand this character or his motivations at all. Akechi is a vengeful guy and he was hellbent on tearing Shido down, no matter what it took. He’s meant to be a representation of what the thieves and especially Joker could have become if they hadn’t received proper guidance.
> Truly the winning move in the “game” was to not even play it
Well, he had no choice in the matter because >!Yaldabaoth!< was the one who threw him into the game, not Shido. And he was set up to fail.
Well said. I think it's important to remember that Akechi is still a victim, despite his crimes. Before he awakened his power, he had endured years of trauma, abuse/neglect, the loss of his mother via suicide, and the societal prejudice surrounding illegitimate children in Japan undoubtedly followed him everywhere.
I don't think it's a coincidence that we see the effects of the foster system on Futaba. It's meant to be dark irony- his actions under Shido put her in a predicament that was likely similar to his. I don't think he wanted Futaba to suffer, as he's outraged when Sae mentions trying to threaten Sojiro's custody of Futaba.
I think he just saw it as a means to an end that he flimsily justifies by saying "if she'd agreed to work with Shido, this wouldn't have happened," but deep down, he surely knows it's an excuse. Third sem Akechi is furious at the idea that anyone might show him mercy/pity.
Akechi is not blameless, but to simply focus on that ignores the events leading up to that. In Japan, being an illegitimate child is deeply taboo and condemned. Japan has a family registry that outright lists when a child is born out of wedlock, and this becomes a great mark of shame on both mother on child that will influence their prospects in life.
His mother was a sex worker that Shido cast aside without a second thought. Sex workers are not treated with a lot of compassion in Japanese society, and women who get pregnant outside of marriage are often victim blamed on top of that. That she took her own life speaks volumes to how damaging the experience was, and it left Akechi with no one to rely on.
Japan's foster care and orphanages are also notoriously bad, so he spent several years cycling through it, utterly alone with the stigmas surrounding both him and his mother, while Shido continued to thrive as a privileged politician.
He was on the verge of aging out of the system when Yaldabaoth granted him his powers, utterly bitter and broken by society, and saw an opportunity to get back at the man responsible for all his pain. It was stupid and reckless, but the very moment he approached Shido, he sealed his fate. Shido's position meant that if he backed down the moment Shido instructed him to do shutdowns, he'd probably be taken out by Shido's cleaner or otherwise condemned.
Keep in mind, Shido rigged the courts over one little bump on the head with Joker. He *absolutely* would not take betrayal well.
So Akechi got himself stuck in a situation of his own making, and he didn't have a Morgana to teach him another way. He didn't have the Phantom Thieves. He met Joker, and that bond *truly* means a lot to him, even if he deflects with statements of hatred. Morgana later calls out his bullshit, that he never hated Joker. He himself states he wished they'd met sooner, and how he's jealous of how free Joker is.
So, yeah, Akechi enabled Shido to enact his plans, but Yaldabaoth still set him down that path and his own personal injustices pushed him to that point where Yaldy could take advantage of him. He's meant to represent what any of the Thieves could've been under worse circumstances, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we see similar paternal dynamics between Yusuke and Madarame and Haru and Okumura. Shido is that taken to the ultimate extreme.
I think it's possible to understand Akechi without absolving him entirely, but there is room for nuance and the unique cultural context that defines him is also a huge, huge factor. LadyVirgilia's [video] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia8D664sof8) covers this excellently.
Easy solution for that: >!either just don’t do that elaborate revenge shit on Shido or just inflict a mental shutdown on him without his stupid Rube Goldberg plan. Just end him. But nope, that’s too simple for an anime story, so we get some wacky looney tunes plot about the whole thing. Also, I think the whole “commentary on bastard children in Japan” thing doesn’t work when he does the kind of stuff that would (in Japan’s eyes at least) justify why they treat them like that. But I guess I don’t know anything.!<
I mean, he was still set up to fail by a malevolent god and that he likely didn't go in with plans to *kill* so much as use his powers to cause psychotic breakdowns to manipulate things in Shido's favor until he eventually betrayed him. And children *will* age out of the foster system if they aren't enrolled in high school (which costs money in Japan and requires entrance exams- and his illegitimate status would impact his abilities to get into a good school). As a result, he was likely at risk of becoming homeless, and the revenge plan was something he pursued out of furious desperation, not cold, calculating logic.
And this was a deeply traumatized fifteen year old. A child who had *no* guidance from someone like Mona and no reason to have faith or trust in anybody. The entire point is that Akechi is a dark mirror to the likes of Joker, Haru, Yusuke, etc. An example of the dangers of solitude, when vulnerable and damaged kids are left to be molded and manipulated by powerful adults.
And not only that, but a freshly awakened Akechi would not have an easy time with Shido's Palace. Considering how much trouble the Thieves had *late* into P5 and how Akechi likely was only able to catch up with them because he was still deemed loyal to Shido (until he no longer was deemed competent and Cogkechi came in to do his thing)...
Well, chances are he never would've gotten to Shido's Shadow in the first place. And even if he did, the cognitions, his Shadow... all of that would've presented tremendous obstacles for him acting solo at that time. He likely would've had to get close to Shido to even gain access to most of his Palace, and by then, he would've effectively sealed his fate, even if he rebelled early. And Akechi's goal was to expose Shido at the peak of his popularity, make the *world* see what a monster he was. Was it smart? Hell no! But I think, deep down, he *knows* that, given that after the mask literally and figuratively breaks in the engine room, he genuinely laments how things went, tells the Thieves to kill him so he's out of their way, and sacrifices himself while begging them to stop Shido... and then there's everything third sem has to offer.
Obviously, that doesn't erase the damage he did, but Akechi is meant to be this messy, complicated character and the crux of P5's themes of injustice toward children at the hands of ruthless adults. And we also see that Shido is *extremely* manipulated and used praise and other methods to further mold Akechi into his human weapon. Akechi loathes Shido, yet a part of him is vulnerable to his "adoration"...
My problem with these kinds of arguments is that they ignore Akechi's victimhood to act like he should've acted rationally, but often traumatized people who are failed by society *don't* act rationally because life has given them very little reason to believe there's another way. His plan was reckless and stupid and he got himself caught up in a situation he couldn't escape on his own. And obviously, he has blood on his hands regardless of why and how, but that's the intentionality of the tragedy behind him. If he *had* just met Joker sooner, if he had a single person to support him rather than suffering under oppressive systems, then he wouldn't have walked such a path.
Not that I think everyone has to like him. I just think the narrative and cultural context surrounding him are important to understanding why the writers set him up like this.
Akechi makes a lot of subconscious cries for help. Like he obviously had his head up his own ass during the entirety of November but this looks like he was starting to crack under the pressure of it all, even before the engine room meltdown.
YES. Absolutely. This is very much a cry for help, but I think his own pride made him far too stubborn to directly ask them for help, even though they would have listened (yes, even Haru and Futaba- they might not *forgive*, but they *understand*).
> (yes, even Haru and Futaba- they might not forgive, but they understand).
This right here. They genuinely cannot stand the guy but if you ever think they, or the rest of the thieves, would abandon Akechi then you don't understand these characters at all.
Totally. I think the best example of this is rank 7 of his confidant, where he is subtly warning Joker that he's soon going to become collateral damage in his revenge plot. It's not a coincidence that you only unlock this rank in November, when the pressure would have really started building on him.
It seems to me like rank 7 unlocks after Joker hears the murder tape, tbh. A lot of what goes on in there has no real meaning if Joker doesn't know what Akechi is.
Yeah, they gave him some help, when they whooped his ass in the engine room.
But the problem is that I as the player have more information about Akechi than the Phantom Thieves do. They don’t know anything other than what he tells them, and he didn’t tell them everything. They never knew that the whole “let’s take care of Shido’s political opponents” plan was originally Akechi’s, not Shido’s. He conveniently omitted that part to make the people he terrorized feel sorry for him. And I will concede that it worked on the PTs, but it didn’t work on me. I don’t feel sorry for the guy for having to face the consequences of his own actions.
Akechi approached Shido by getting him out of a scandal using his call of chaos ability, not through murder. By the end of the engine room it's very clear that Akechi is done making excuses for himself and expects to be punished for his actions, even if that's not how the phantom thieves go about it.
Disliking him is valid though, Akechi is a very dislikable character. But at the end of the day he was written to be the sympathetic antagonist of the group and the game treats him accordingly.
I really wish we got more akechi insight. I mean I remembered years ago there were rumors about Persona 5 AG which people thought would be about akechi (AG -> Akechi Goro). I’d love to learn more about how he ended up in the position he’s in during the main game. I’m still holding out hope cause of atlas’s love of milking their games till there’s not a drop left but the chances feel so low.
Yeah, the fact that these texts are so out of the way likely contributes to a lot of the misunderstandings about his characterization, made messier by some questionable localization choices. [Vashti] (https://vashtijoy.tumblr.com/post/715752908069748736/index-of-meta-posts) has some great blog posts that go into localization changes and other cool stuff in P5R.
Thank you for posting this! This adds a lot of necessary context.
"This is the 5th time we're changing someone's heart, are we sure it's going to work this time?", "This is the 12th time we've spoken and texted about how much of an asshole *insert name here* is, are we really doing the right thing changing their heart?".
It's shame this game wastes so much of its dialogue because it makes the good stuff easily missed. Plus, the game incentivizes you to finish the palaces early because your teammates won't hang out with you if you haven't gotten the treasure. I hope P6 handles this better!
Yeah, I think that's why they should've made this scripted instead. ESPECIALLY since these were also in vanilla, where Akechi had much less time to shine and thus people took him at a more surface level. These chats being scripted would've made sure nobody missed out and got a better idea of his mindset back in 2016.
That, or have the game discourage doing Palace infiltrations too fast. Some way of communicating to players would help a lot.
Yeah, I agree. They should have been scripted!
>Some way of communicating to players would help a lot.
Considering how strongly the game hints to spend time with Maruki and we still get "Why didn't I get the third semester? I didn't know I was supposed to max Maruki!" posts, unless everything important was scripted, people would still miss it.
The first day we meet him, we get him to rank 2 which doesn't happen with other confidants. The game also brings up the fact of him leaving in November a lot and makes him more available leading up to his last day. Plus, all throughtout the game, our teammates are shown going and talking to him. Our teammates have very little meaningful interactions with the other confidants (excluding family members obviously).
They did just about everything they could without flashing a neon sign over his head and making his confidant progressed by the story.
I know everyone is playing along with but I just wanted to point out that if a Shujin student murdered the humpty dumpty principal they would totally have motivation for it. Has everyone (in the game) forgotten how awful he is between covering up an abusive pedophile, using Makoto to do his dirty work because his lazy ass is useless etc. I really wouldn't be surprised if some Shujin students thought about pushing his fatass down the stairs to see if he'd bounce.
YEAH, that's a great point. Kobayakawa literally was complacent not only in Kamoshida's atrocities, but refused to lift a finger regarding the drug trafficking that affected Shujin students. He was only interested in his own self-interest.
Hell not even just drug trafficking because both Makoto and Eiko almost got caught up in sex trafficking. I'm sure that if he wasn't murdered than he would've been a mementos request in the late game
It's really fascinating how much content you can unlock in this game.
You play, play and still doesn't see everything. And it's not even an open-world rpg.
It's weird to me that these texts just don't exist if you secure the route early. I don't really see a reason they couldn't still trigger when you walk into Leblanc in the evening. There's no plot reveals that happen upon securing the route, Akechi is still on the team until the actual mission date, and these conversations are almost entirely about the repercussions of the PREVIOUS palace.
Oh, I agree. There's really nothing that inherently ties these to the treasure route. They could've been scripted events, and it would've fit just fine.
Every palace has these kinds of missable texts, so that's probably why, but it's a strange decision.
Oh i remember these. I read all of the texts and i understood that the akechi was unintentionally leaving his feelings out. I never believed he killed for pleasure more like used to it. This was great foreshadowing for shido palace.
I wouldn't call him remorseless *overall* in third semester- just in battle, and tbh, him getting catharsis from tearing through generic enemies in Maruki's Palace (or other enemy Shadows before that) makes sense, given the lack of personal freedom that pervades his narrative.
(I do think he enjoyed killing Okumura, but tbh, I think people are way too quick to forget what an awful person Okumura was and all the people he had killed or undergo psychotic breakdowns for his own benefit. I think any adult that used Akechi excessively was an adult he had no moral objections to removing from the picture, which if anything only aligns with his offense in the 11/7 at the prospect that he solely does it for fun.)
When he's not in battle, you definitely see signs of regret in Akechi. He's outraged when he's let off easy after turning himself in, makes no attempts to justify what he did to anyone and is focused on stopping Maruki for the sake of a) his own personal freedom, something he's never truly had, and b) everyone else's freedom. Hell, even when he holds his gun up at Maruki, it's a very cold reaction born more out of pragmatism (if the Thieves can't stop Maruki, *he'll do it*.)
There's also some really interesting Jazz Jin conversations that shed more light into his mindset, with a lot of reflection and introspection. But I think his anger at the prospect of being granted pity after everything he's done speaks to his regrets, which is interesting since the devs [confirmed a part of him DID wish for a happier, simpler life with Joker and the Thieves] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/746252767760351232/have-you-seen-the-commentary-from-the-p5r-artbook?source=share).
He didn’t exactly apologize to Futaba or Haru, did he?
I also have a theory that >!the Akechi we get in that part of the game was simply Joker’s cognition of him; ie the person Joker *thought* he was. And it wouldn’t even be the first time that’s been a thing in Persona. Hell, the whole thing with Adachi in Golden was Adachi telling Narukami that Yu made up his own version of Adachi in his head, and now he felt “betrayed” by him even though Adachi was never the kind of person Narukami thought he was. And I think that’s why Akechi is a cackling edgy boy screaming about “CHAOS” or whatever tf he was going on about while talking about how he refuses to be controlled. But he still wasn’t sorry about Wakaba and Okumura. Nope.!<
>**Haru:** And what if they weren't normal?
>**Akechi:** Are you implying they kill for the sheer pleasure of it?
Interesting. Given that's a complete non sequitur that exacerbates his sense of alienation from others due to his upbringing, I read the fact that he leaps to that form of aberration in morality and affect, as opposed to that which Haru actually intends, as confirmation of the pleasure that he derives from inflicting pain. Rather than reading her intentions, he leaps to the reality of things.
I just can't really see it as that with how openly he laments not meeting Joker sooner, how Joker's heart is free, the ways he dissuades Shido from having the rest of the Thieves killed, etc.
I *do* think he enjoyed killing *Okumura* because Okumura used him as a tool quite frequently, and it likely brought him catharsis, but especially with how angry he is at getting off easy in third sem and the idea that he might get pity/mercy, I think he's very much aware of what he's done and doesn't truly take pride in it. There's just so much pointing to him being unhappy with his circumstances but sticking to it out of personal obligation due to having already started down this path.
(I also imagine he has no objections to taking out the SIU Director, but I doubt every target is one he takes personal enjoyment in by any means.)
Not that he doesn't enjoy letting off steam in the Metaverse- he clearly has a good time tearing through generic Shadows in third sem, but the way he approaches, say, Maruki during the final battle is a lot less MWA HA HA evil and more a cold determination to stop Maruki at all costs, even if it means doing what the Thieves are too hesitant to do.
This is certainly a possible reading, but I don't think it's like that. Firstly, if that was the case, there's no reason for him to leap in to justify himself, with a poorly-disguised explanation that we know to be true—"acting behind the scenes to accomplish some grand objective... it is even possible that he is being controlled."
Second, the term he uses is a technical term, *kairaku satsujinsha*, literally "lust murderer". It's strongly associated with sex crimes. It doesn't seem like a term Akechi would apply to himself, or at least we never get any indication that he ought to.
Japan, as a whole, has always been completely backward for prioritizing everything else over human lives, in my opinion, and that'll never change
To be honest, I felt what he did in the engine room, and the team-up with him during the third semester was completely unnecessary as the shadows cognitive Akechi brought with him were weak so mowing them and Cognitive Akechi down without any trouble...
As for the third semester, Maruki was effectively the same as Yaldabaoth but with a different approach, so they didn't need Akechi's help there either
While he is also a victim, I don't have any sympathy or empathy for him
Main thing I disagree on is the thieves being in the know. Aside from Joker, Morgana, and Futaba anyway. Because based on their behavior inside and out of the Palace, I can only assume one or two things.
1) Ryuji, Ann, Yusuke, Makoto, and Haru all suddenly gained the miraculous ability to act, but it came at the cost of half their brain cells because they keep putting themselves in unnecessary compromising situations where they can blow their cover.
2) They haven't been informed yet and it isn't an act. I lean towards the second because while Joker and Morgana can't participate in the same way as the others, Futaba can and her behavior stands as a sharp contrast to the others.
Everyone is treating Akechi as one would expect if he weren't the culprit. Everyone from our two hotheads, Ryuji and Makoto, the infamously bad actor Ann, and Haru who *just* had her father killed. Meanwhile Futaba is extremely passive aggressive and treats Akechi almost as poorly as she does Yusuke.
Everyone keeps taliing about their situation and, if they do know the truth, are putting thrmselves in dangerous situations where they're more likely to slip up. Except Futaba, who seems to ve trying to drop the subject.
You're assuming here that the PTs are acting, rather than concealing what they know. Ann, for instance, isn't lying when she says "guys, don't you think he's like us?"—that is what she really thinks, and that's the point the narrative hammers home. In the same way, when Haru asks Akechi "why do you seek justice?", she isn't acting—she really wants to know, and her whole characterisation around Akechi supports that.
Haru and Futaba's needling of him alone indicates that they know; Futaba's behaviour towards him is wholly consistent with her being the PT least inclined to give Akechi any leeway at all, and for good reason, but *Haru* is just as passive-aggressive—"Even someone like you doesn't know", and "He used my father as well". And by the time they go into the palace on 10/29, you can see the others needling Akechi in just this passive-aggressive way.
Makoto's leaping in with "Controlled? By whom?" indicates that she knows—because this is a point that she registers *at once*, and will return to on 11/20—"Akechi is just a tool."
In short, the situation is complicated. As for "blowing their cover"... I'm not sure the PTs are really that cautious, tbh. It isn't really in character for any of them to cower in the shadows.
Your first point is irrelevant since we *know* they didn't know about Akechi yet. Joker first told Futaba about the situation later that night.
And it requires a *lot* of acting because you have to constantly treat Akechi like an ally and honorable adversary, not a psychopath who has murdered loved ones and plans to kill you all. It requires a lot of subtlety, being cordial and respectful without being too friendly. Futaba falls on both counts, yet somehow everyone else pulls it off?
But all of them act in ways that are consistent with their overall attitudes and behaviour, which is why the things they say on 10/26 and 10/28 are relevant. Each PT has a different attitude to Akechi. And while they may be more or less angry with him or opposed to him (depending on where in the plot they are), those attitudes remain remarkably consistent.
A large part of the point of the November arc, and its tragedy, comes from the fact that Akechi *could* have been a real part of the team. He could have been their friend. The bonds which will be on display later in the engine room develop in November. What you call acting, I think is their bond with him (and his with them) forming against all of their will. The PTs are being themselves, trying to draw someone victimised by a rotten adult in out of the dark—otherwise, their later interactions with Akechi have no meaning.
Besides anything else, the idea that the PTs don't tell *Haru* that she'll be working with her father's murderer, the same PTs who later on will be so exquisitely careful to give her and Futaba a veto over Akechi's involvement in the thrd semester—I just don't buy that. Plus, we know that the PTs decide everything unilaterally. It would be hard to do that if most of them have no idea what's going on. They do know.
I'd have to rewatch the scenes that cover the reveal about the bait and switch plan. I know that they definitely know by 11/18 for obvious reasons, but I suppose it depends on when Futaba actually bugged his phone (my memory is fuzzy on the exact date) as well as how soon the other Thieves were informed of everything.
Haru's behavior feels very pointed, and apparently the Japanese version is even more pointed (I wanna say Vashti's reblog in the linked post touches on this- she definitely covered it *somewhere*, so I may have to dig for it).
Still, completely fair points and interpretation!
EDIT: [Here] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/750420121733971968/while-this-is-hilarious-i-need-to-point-out-that?source=share) is where Vashti touches on Haru and Akechi on 11/7 and localization differences, if folks wanna draw their own conclusions.
Thanks! Will check it later when my cousin's on and get his take too.
Anyway, she bugged his phone the first day of Palace infiltration. The day before, Joker called her over and told her about Akechi. Considering Makoto almost sabotaged her effort by drawing attention, I doubt she knew then.
As you said, sometime before the the 18th, the others would have been told, but it's never specified when. Although I did notice on the day of the heist, if you have a team meeting in the safe room, Makoto subtly tells everyone to keep an eye on Akechi.
Yeah, so it's possible they already do know pretty early on. It seems important to keep them on the same page, so there's a pragmatic reason behind it.
Just thought I should mention that there’s Thieves’ Den dialogue from Yusuke where he says it’s hard to keep an act up for such a long time, to which Akechi replies that you get used to it after doing it for a while.
It's possible, but I doubt he would have told them before Futaba gathered evidence. It would actually be detrimental. Same reason he kept it hidden for so long before the 26th: The Phantom Thieves, as a whole, aren't good at keeping their cool. There's the risk they will slip.
Joker brings it up with Morgana when he needs to consult him. He brings it up with Futaba when he needs her help. I imagine the best time to inform the others would be after getting proof and needing help with planning.
He laughs maniacally while fighting his way through enemy Shadows, but that doesn't mean he took pleasure in killing Wakaba. Keep in mind, he was *fifteen* when he got started, and he he makes all these comments in November about how if Wakaba had agreed to work w/ Shido, it wouldn't have come to that. That's not the kinda thing someone with no regrets would say (and keep in mind this comes right off the heels of him insisting there's no need to kill the other Thieves.)
I'm sure he enjoyed killing Okumura because Okumura used him just like Shido did, so there was likely a level of spite and catharsis. That doesn't mean he gleefully awaits every hit, considering he's so bitter about how Joker's heart is free. If he truly had no regrets or remorse, he wouldn't wish he had met Joker years ago, begged for the Thieves to change Shido's heart, or acted with so much anger at being let off easy in Maruki's reality. Akechi's whole role in third sem is about how he no longer wishes to be someone else's puppet and wants to be *free*, even if that freedom comes at the cost of his life, because after being a pawn for others for so long, he understands the value of personal autonomy and believes it's worth fighting for.
There's room for nuance and complexity to his character and to boil him down to just evil laughter really misses a lot of the depth behind him, especially with Royal in mind.
You'd better take that up with Haru, then, who describes the thrill she gets from killing Shadows in the same terms as Akechi uses to talk about combat.
Yeah, and that fucking sucks. It's not only bad for the character but also such a clichê.
At the very least though, we never saw Haru killing people. We have seen Akechi kill people.
Yep, and so you know that he doesn't behave the way he usually does in combat at that time—*including* in the interrogation room, when he's committed to killing Ren, and wants to kill him (for whatever reason). But there's also so much more to it than that.
Acknowledging character complexity isn't infantalization. The game *repeatedly* emphasizes that Akechi is a victim *as well* as a perpetrator. His confidant in Royal literally has him give Joker a warning in Rank 7 (which only unlocks after Joker would have heard the bugged phone call).
Right after engine room, you get:
**Haru:** Honestly, I have mixed feelings... but I think he was a victim too.
**Ann:** A victim we couldn't save...
**Yusuke:** Had I not met you all, I may have become like him as well...
That's the point Persona 5 wants people to remember.
Akechi still did kill Wakaba and Okumura, but that doesn't mean he enjoyed every hit with a smile. The adults who used him as a tool? Certainly. Okumura was a piece of shit who exploited him just as much as Shido, but when the game hammers it in that he was set up to fail by Yaldabaoth, molded into an assassin by Shido, and harbors deep resentment for his circumstances...
That's just stating in-game facts. :/ It's what the game *deliberately* communicates. Especially if you look into the Japanese cultural context surrounding illegitimate children and the children of sex workers and the immense societal discrimination, Akechi is very much designed as a foil to the Thieves- what they could have been without each other.
If you're gonna ignore all of that, fine, but his Royal confidant, third semester Jazz Jin conversations, and so much more only add to the points I made in the initial post. Note that I never said that he did *nothing* wrong. All I said was that his feelings are not so clear cut as enjoying it.
Yes, of course, the "yes I am a terrible person, but have you ever considered the fact that I was sad once?" bullshit. I don't care about it. As far as we know all the villains in the game had a tragedy that made them the way they are.
Also, please enlighten me, who would you say was the (living) person Akechi cared the most?
Cripe's sake. The game makes it *extremely* clear that...
- Yaldabaoth gave him the power, preying upon his trauma and pain at the lowest point in his life, when he had *nothing* else to live for beyond his hatred for Shido, who is *unquestionably a monster*.
- Shido instructed him on how to use his powers "properly" and had him kill Wakaba. Keeping in mind that Shido was a politician with a lot of connections and even his own cleaner, Akechi was screwed the moment he approached Shido as a dumb fifteen year old.
- Akechi did not have a Morgana to show him another way. *There is a reason* he looks so upset when he finds out how the Changes of Heart work. This is consistent with later moments like his moments of regret in the Engine Room and his willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of putting an end to Shido's evil, not to mention his belief that the true reality and everyone's freedom of choice matters more than a world where he could atone for his crimes (Maruki confirms this is his wish), not to mention the [P5R interview] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/746252767760351232/have-you-seen-the-commentary-from-the-p5r-artbook?source=share) confirming that he genuinely *did* wish he could've had a simpler friendship with Joker and the Thieves.
The insistence that Akechi's behavior toward random enemy Shadows in third semester, which aren't the Shadows of people, is indicative of how he handled every hit is just factually incorrect based on the information we have. You're outright ignoring the depth of his confidant, third semester (both missable and mandatory story scenes), just to focus on *what* he did rather than the clear intentionality from the writers.
It is possible to empathize with a character while acknowledging their crimes. Plenty of characters in fiction fill similar archetypes as Akechi (Vegeta is a big one).
The fact that you're boiling my points down to something so shallow already suggests you don't want to engage in good faith, so I'll leave it at that.
Whoa whoa whoa, how do you know if Shido didn't had a terribly tragic past? What if his dog died when he was a kid and he never got over it :'(
Also, since you didn't responded: Joker is someone who Akechi undeniable cares. And what was his facial expression when he shot "Joker" in the face?
Akechi obviously cared about his mother. He cares about Ren and the Phantom Thieves, which is why (per in-game narrative text) he gives his life to save them, and especially why he reacts the way he does if you take Maruki's deal on 2/2. He cares about Shido despite himself, as is revealed at several points, including in in-game text that describes them as having "a love-hate relationship". He cares about Yoshizawa, as comes up not just in the third semester but in P5T. He cares enough about Futaba, even, to call Sae out on threatening Sojiro's guardianship of her on 9/13.
The onus is on you to provide justification for *your* interpretation—if you can manage to do it in any way other than "I didn't pay attention to this game". Your not understanding what's going on does not justify you in talking down to everyone else.
Bro literally fucking died for his friends idk what other show of good faith people expect of Akechi.
Even Futaba and Haru aren't this contrarian about him, maybe people just have a skill issue.
Nobody's saying Akechi isn't warped. How did you miss everything else that goes on with them? How did you do Shido's Palace, for instance, without noticing that Akechi has what we'll call "issues" with friendship and trust?—and the dramatic way those issues are resolved at the end of the fight?
Did you see him delay killing the other Phantom Thieves, when Shido commanded it? Did you see him lie about Morgana? Did you see him fall back against the wall when Shido brought Ren's suicide back up? Did you see the look on his face when he looked down at the dead cop? Did you see him *refuse* to kill Ren, when he could have done that and had a chance at following through on his revenge? Did you see how mad he was about being released without charge in January?
So he takes pleasure killing a person he cares about, but when he kills Futaba's mother any other innocent person he doesn't.
God this character is so trash. It boggles my mind that the entire fandom finds him so good and "complex".
Haru states point blank she gets really excited when she kills shadows. It's not even a joke either she's being serious. Most characters do because their shadows their not people and characters really hate them (understandably so). I think the only "exception" is makoto because of her overly cautious nature.
She sure does, and it sucks when she does it. Sure it's basically just played for humor, but it still really bad(also pretty clichê as well).
Also, at the very least(and i still hate it) she only kills shadows, whereas we have in fact seen Akechi killing people.
I mean I don't think it's a moral failing for the characters to enjoy killing shadows since 1. Their evil 2. Not real
And also I just think that's such a nothing argument against this person's post. It's litterly texts from the game and it's backed up by what's stated in the engine room and basically all of royal.
Lol were you expecting me to change my mind by pointing the Haru problem?
And look, i'm not going to make a moral judgement about you as a person, after all we are still talking about ficional characters, but in the end of the day you can talk to them. They can decide to join you. They are sentient beings. Maybe not all are as smart as us but still fairly capable of communicating.
And i'm not making an argument on canonicity. It being canon or not means nothing to me. My point is that it's shitty writing.
You mean the persona shadows? Dude a lot of them are acting under the palaces ruler but even when their not their still just doing things for the fun of it. Even if they are sentient their still /mostly/ evil. Shit in persona 3 and 4 their just completely evil.
Also like...it's not shitty writing just because you don't like it? The writing is litterly "look how society failed this guy and lead him to do these things this is bad we shouldn't let people get to the point where they do these things, Also friendships and relationships with other people are very important and self isolation and wallowing in your own misery are bad and lead to bad things" also the game NEVER excuses his crimes and never endorses him or what he did. Life isn't black and white and neither is persona games.
I don't think there's a more polite way to say this, but if you think this is good you need to start playing and watching different games. The bad guy who was sad? Come on man, give me something better. Also his plan is completely ridiculous. Wanting to get revenge on your dad by... helping him get to the top of the world and kill dozens of innocent people to do that? Come on.
"Complex" doesn't mean good.
And the game definitely does treats him in a weird way. He fucking killed the parents of two members of the team and the two are still "I don't like you but i understand you"?. Fuuuck ooff. I actually felt gross simply having him on my party. It would be like having Kamoshida as a party member.
When i saw the scene of him killing Joker i was already thinking about how Akechi was going to get killed, but of course the game would go to the "he's just a person who got hurt a lot isn't it sad? :'(" and shit all over that already shat on arch. Then comes the third semester and the game decides to do a "sure the character is you, but not really, he does has his own opinions" and make Joker's deep care for Akechi as the reason why he's alive. Motherfucker he shot a version of me in the face with a smile, i would be dancing in starlight in his grave if i could.
Do you only play baby games? Like do you litterly only play games for babies because fucking pokiemon games have characters who apposed you morally and try to defeat you and yet you end up coming to a understanding of the character. And like this trope of "character who tries to kill the mc has a complex relationship with the mc and they somewhat come to a understanding/the mc helps them out" is not only been happening in the series since p2 but is a very common theme in not only jrps but rpgs in general.
Komishida directly sexually harassed Ann and assaulted her best friend causing her to try to kill herself. As stated in the game BY HARU AND FUTABA MIND YOU. Akechi wasn't the mastermind behind their parents demise he was a tool and the fact that he was his father and using him like that was disgusting. They do not forgive him. They state many many times they do not forgive him. You can't play cards on the theives den with him and them because they do not forgive him. Haru says she will take him out if he attacks them again. Other characters express sympathy with him not that they like him or that they forgive him. They express disliking him many times even when they work with him in the third semester.
"He was a self insert and then not" Yeah believe it or not the mcs of all the games is only kinda a self insert. There are still base things about the character you can't change. Just because you don't like it doesn't matter.
There are plenty of good antagonists in this game. Kamoshida is a great antagonist. You really get to hate him. Shido could have been written better, but the basis is good. The problem is trying to make them "uwu please be a part of our team" despite the fact that they are still terrible. Akechi doesn't even regret anything. He didn't undergo a change of heart. In a way he's even worse then the other villains, because at least with all the other palace owners we know they trully regret what they did and will most likely never do it again.
>Komishida directly sexually harassed Ann and assaulted her best friend causing her to try to kill herself.
I'm sorry, do you think killing dozens of people, including the parents of two members of the party, and shooting you in the face is better than this? Seriously?
>As stated in the game BY HARU AND FUTABA MIND YOU.
You pointing out how badly written this plot point is means nothing to me. It only proves my point that the game has kid gloves for Akechi for no reason at all. Yes, they do that, and it's TERRIBLE.
>Akechi wasn't the mastermind behind their parents demise he was a tool and the fact that he was his father and using him like that was disgusting.
Yeah, he was a tool. And he decided to become his tool, with his stupid plot of "i'll avenge my mother by helping him all the way and creating a trail of corpses on said way"
>They state many many times they do not forgive him. You can't play cards on the theives den with him and them because they do not forgive him.
And yet we still have to have him on the party.
>Haru says she will take him out if he attacks them again.
Wooow she said she will attack a person if that person attacks them. Incredible.
>Other characters express sympathy with him not that they like him or that they forgive him. They express disliking him many times even when they work with him in the third semester.
Exactly. They still express sympathy. They still work with him. That's the problem.
>"He was a self insert and then not" Yeah believe it or not the mcs of all the games is only kinda a self insert. There are still base things about the character you can't change. Just because you don't like it doesn't matter.
If i don't like it, i will criticize it. What's your point?
>In a way he's even worse then the other villains, because at least with all the other palace owners we know they trully regret what they did and will most likely never do it again.
In royal he attempts to turn himself in t answer for his crimes and so joker can go free. At the end of the game he beleives he is sacrificing his existence so everyone can go back to their true reality.
>I'm sorry, do you think killing dozens of people, including the parents of two members of the party, and shooting you in the face is better than this? Seriously?
He is a hitman. A hit man kills people for either money or to establish a personal goal in akechis case. No this does not justify murder of fucking course not but no one has a reason to sexually harass and assault anyone. And the reason why a lot of people like a hitman or even a character who murders for fun more then a rapist is because most people don't have irl experince with a hitman/murder. This is a stupid fucking comparison.
>Yeah, he was a tool. And he decided to become his tool, with his stupid plot of "i'll avenge my mother by helping him all the way and creating a trail of corpses on said way"
First of all you don't have the plot correct. "I will get him to trust me, get him everything he ever wanted, revil myself to him so he will be forced to acknowledge me and then I will kill him." That plot is stupid as fuck no one is saying its a good one because of course it's not. It's a plot driven by grief, revenge, and isolation. It's supposed to be stupid because he's blinded by his own feelings so he doesn't make a "well thought out rational plan".
>And yet we still have to have him on the party.
They litterly state they are only working with him to accomplish their goal. They do not hang out with him, they don't have fun conversations with him, they don't invite him to the movies. They are co workers at best at this point. It's not a unheard of plot of characters who have tried to kill each other working together to defeat a common enemy.
>Wooow she said she will attack a person if that person attacks them. Incredible.
No she says she will take him out. Not attack him she will kill him if he gets in her way. This is her stating how while she will work with him she will not tolerate him if he steps out of line.
>Exactly. They still express sympathy. They still work with him. That's the problem.
So you want them to be unsymlathic twords people? You critize them for enjoying killing shadows but you don't want them to show actual sympathy twords actual alive people. You realize how stupid that is right and how much that actually violates their characters right. That's why they are so effective because they express sympathy for people who are often scorned at by society.
>If i don't like it, i will criticize it. What's your point?
Did you only read the last part. You play a game that is only a semi self insert and get mad when the character has his own traits. That is just a you issue. You can critize a game for whatever but it's a whiney critism. Oh nooo they gave the mc his own character how dare they!!
I honestly can't fathom that a person will think Kamoshida is such a monster and they be fine with Akechi being a party member. How is that possible? Would you have no problem at all with Kamoshida being a party member?
>You mean the persona shadows? Dude a lot of them are acting under the palaces ruler but even when their not their still just doing things for the fun of it. Even if they are sentient their still /mostly/ evil. Shit in persona 3 and 4 their just completely evil.
Lol ok so you did thought i was going to change my mind by pointing Haru's behavior huh? No, i don't care, i think her liking to kill shadows is cringe. There's plenty of evil characters in this game and we don't kill any of them.
Of course I didn't expect you to change your mind. I pointed it out because that's another character (and arguably every character from 3-5) because every character expresses joy in killing them with like two exceptions makoto and Naoto because of their serious/cautious nature's. I was just pointing out how stupid of a argument that is because most characters enjoy combat with the enemies in litterly everysingle game ever.
>Futaba: Ugh, you're useless. >Akechi: That is quite harsh. You just know he was seething here lmao. But these chats are interesting. Maybe I'm reading his tone wrong, but I like how he sounds offended at the idea that the culprit is killing for sheer pleasure. As if *that's* all he's dedicated the last two years of his life towards. Ironic considering that that's how a lot of P5 fans come out thinking of him too.
YES. Exactly. A lot of people assume he does it for pleasure, and I think that comes down to misreading his expressions and mannerisms on 11/20 and 11/21 (as well as the engine room). But as I mentioned in the linked post, there's a real significance to his mask *breaking* after his fight on the ship. Akechi is a character who uses masks for different situations. Even the conversation in Shido's office was a mask, yet you still get those moments of him lamenting about how if Wakaba had simply agreed to work w/ Shido, it wouldn't have come to this, etc. I think he's a lot more shaken up about his crimes than he would ever *dare* admit, because he uses sunk cost to justify everything (and tbh, Shido has his cleaner and has so much control over the media/law/etc that even if he *wanted* to leave, he'd be screwed). He basically got set up to fail, got molded into a child assassin, and made up all these excuses behind what he "had" to do, only to find out that there was another way all along... which tbh I think *absolutely* influenced his jealousy, too. Joker got the magical cat guide who could teach him what to do. Akechi got Shido.
I agree. It's like people see the manic, murderous Akechi in the engine room as his "true self." But that's him at his absolute lowest. That's his emotional breakdown where all the ugliest parts of himself rush to the surface. Was he giddy at the opportunity to kill Joker (and the PTs) in that moment? Yeah. Is that how he is all the time? Definitely not. In my view, Akechi doesn't really regret the murders themselves. He's not bothered by the individual people he killed (though he didn't particularly *like* doing it either, contrary to popular belief). He more so regrets the way his life turned out and the path that led him to commit them. Since, like you said, he realizes too late that there had always been another way.
I think people do this because of the twist characters in P3 and P4 setting a certain precedent, when if you dig a little deeper, those moments are just masks that he dons, and we only see his true feelings shine through in the engine room *after* he's been beaten down. (And even P4's twist character has more depth/cultural context that gets overlooked a lot.) Though I do think him lamenting not meeting Joker sooner and how Joker's heart is free are 100% genuine. Interestingly, his engine room dialogue also changes [depending on if you rank 10 him in Royal] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/714830679868882944/shido-is-less-important-to-akechi-with-the?source=share), which is a cool, overlooked detail.
I’d be interested in hearing more about the context behind the twist villain of p4 if you have a good source for that on hand, I don’t hear that character talked about as much anymore since p4 got mostly overshadowed by p5 and p3R.
So a lot of it boils down to [Japanese work culture] (https://www.ejable.com/japan-corner/working-in-japan/japanese-work-culture/) and the bubble bursting. A more critical look at the work culture can be found [here] (https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/karoshi-deep-look-japans-unforgiving-working-culture). His nihilism toward the world overlaps a *ton* with what can be collectively called the "lost decades" as well as the social pressure for success in school leading to success in the workplace. There's a pretty good P3 video that taps into some of this in a P3 context [here] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mihv4XnAx9Y) by LadyVirgilia. This doesn't justify his actions, but it does explain a lot of his mindset, as someone who worked hard in school with pressure from his parents to excel (this comes up in his Social Link), only to get sent out to Inaba after he screwed up in the city. He still had *way* more agency in his choices, and was an adult to boot, but there was definitely some cultural commentary at play with him, and he was kind of meant to be a cautionary tale for players.
It’s amazing how many people ignore this chat log and insist that Akechi is nothing more than a psychopath who loves killing random people for shiggles.
Yep. Classic case of, "*I* don't like this character, so I'm going to assume the absolute worst about him to feel justified in my dislike for him. How dare *you* like Akechi, the serial killer psychopath who has never felt love or a shred of remorse his entire life? Fangirls, smh..."
I’ve had people accuse me of having a thing for irl serial killers just because I like a fictional assassin in a video game. I wish I were kidding but I’m not.
Oh, I’ve read this. It doesn’t change the fact that Akechi is the only reason why Shido could plan this stuff out in the first place. Akechi went to Shido and was like “hey guy, what if I told you I could make all of your problems disappear?” and it was only then that Shido even began his grand plan. But Akechi (and the game itself, really) wants us to ignore that fact. “But Shido *made* him do it!” Please. If Akechi never approached Shido, Shido would’ve never known about Akechi. He is not blameless.
> He is not blameless Nobody is saying he is. > Akechi went to Shido and was like “hey guy, what if I told you I could make all of your problems disappear?” and it was only then that Shido even began his grand plan. But Akechi (and the game itself, really) wants us to ignore that fact. Akechi went to Shido and told him he can use the Call of Chaos to drive Shadows berserk. Shido then taught him how to use that power to murder people. This is practically spelled out to you during their conversation/info dump. The game isn’t trying to make you ignore anything.
Akechi could’ve just not approached Shido and Shido never would’ve even known that Akechi even existed. Or that >!Akechi might be his bastard son. Truly the winning move in the “game” was to not even play it, but Akechi did and he got played. I’m not gonna feel bad for him for that.!<
> Akechi could’ve just not approached Shido and Shido never would’ve even known that Akechi even existed. Well if that’s what you believe then, with all due respect, you don’t understand this character or his motivations at all. Akechi is a vengeful guy and he was hellbent on tearing Shido down, no matter what it took. He’s meant to be a representation of what the thieves and especially Joker could have become if they hadn’t received proper guidance. > Truly the winning move in the “game” was to not even play it Well, he had no choice in the matter because >!Yaldabaoth!< was the one who threw him into the game, not Shido. And he was set up to fail.
Well said. I think it's important to remember that Akechi is still a victim, despite his crimes. Before he awakened his power, he had endured years of trauma, abuse/neglect, the loss of his mother via suicide, and the societal prejudice surrounding illegitimate children in Japan undoubtedly followed him everywhere. I don't think it's a coincidence that we see the effects of the foster system on Futaba. It's meant to be dark irony- his actions under Shido put her in a predicament that was likely similar to his. I don't think he wanted Futaba to suffer, as he's outraged when Sae mentions trying to threaten Sojiro's custody of Futaba. I think he just saw it as a means to an end that he flimsily justifies by saying "if she'd agreed to work with Shido, this wouldn't have happened," but deep down, he surely knows it's an excuse. Third sem Akechi is furious at the idea that anyone might show him mercy/pity.
Akechi is not blameless, but to simply focus on that ignores the events leading up to that. In Japan, being an illegitimate child is deeply taboo and condemned. Japan has a family registry that outright lists when a child is born out of wedlock, and this becomes a great mark of shame on both mother on child that will influence their prospects in life. His mother was a sex worker that Shido cast aside without a second thought. Sex workers are not treated with a lot of compassion in Japanese society, and women who get pregnant outside of marriage are often victim blamed on top of that. That she took her own life speaks volumes to how damaging the experience was, and it left Akechi with no one to rely on. Japan's foster care and orphanages are also notoriously bad, so he spent several years cycling through it, utterly alone with the stigmas surrounding both him and his mother, while Shido continued to thrive as a privileged politician. He was on the verge of aging out of the system when Yaldabaoth granted him his powers, utterly bitter and broken by society, and saw an opportunity to get back at the man responsible for all his pain. It was stupid and reckless, but the very moment he approached Shido, he sealed his fate. Shido's position meant that if he backed down the moment Shido instructed him to do shutdowns, he'd probably be taken out by Shido's cleaner or otherwise condemned. Keep in mind, Shido rigged the courts over one little bump on the head with Joker. He *absolutely* would not take betrayal well. So Akechi got himself stuck in a situation of his own making, and he didn't have a Morgana to teach him another way. He didn't have the Phantom Thieves. He met Joker, and that bond *truly* means a lot to him, even if he deflects with statements of hatred. Morgana later calls out his bullshit, that he never hated Joker. He himself states he wished they'd met sooner, and how he's jealous of how free Joker is. So, yeah, Akechi enabled Shido to enact his plans, but Yaldabaoth still set him down that path and his own personal injustices pushed him to that point where Yaldy could take advantage of him. He's meant to represent what any of the Thieves could've been under worse circumstances, and I don't think it's a coincidence that we see similar paternal dynamics between Yusuke and Madarame and Haru and Okumura. Shido is that taken to the ultimate extreme. I think it's possible to understand Akechi without absolving him entirely, but there is room for nuance and the unique cultural context that defines him is also a huge, huge factor. LadyVirgilia's [video] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia8D664sof8) covers this excellently.
Easy solution for that: >!either just don’t do that elaborate revenge shit on Shido or just inflict a mental shutdown on him without his stupid Rube Goldberg plan. Just end him. But nope, that’s too simple for an anime story, so we get some wacky looney tunes plot about the whole thing. Also, I think the whole “commentary on bastard children in Japan” thing doesn’t work when he does the kind of stuff that would (in Japan’s eyes at least) justify why they treat them like that. But I guess I don’t know anything.!<
I mean, he was still set up to fail by a malevolent god and that he likely didn't go in with plans to *kill* so much as use his powers to cause psychotic breakdowns to manipulate things in Shido's favor until he eventually betrayed him. And children *will* age out of the foster system if they aren't enrolled in high school (which costs money in Japan and requires entrance exams- and his illegitimate status would impact his abilities to get into a good school). As a result, he was likely at risk of becoming homeless, and the revenge plan was something he pursued out of furious desperation, not cold, calculating logic. And this was a deeply traumatized fifteen year old. A child who had *no* guidance from someone like Mona and no reason to have faith or trust in anybody. The entire point is that Akechi is a dark mirror to the likes of Joker, Haru, Yusuke, etc. An example of the dangers of solitude, when vulnerable and damaged kids are left to be molded and manipulated by powerful adults. And not only that, but a freshly awakened Akechi would not have an easy time with Shido's Palace. Considering how much trouble the Thieves had *late* into P5 and how Akechi likely was only able to catch up with them because he was still deemed loyal to Shido (until he no longer was deemed competent and Cogkechi came in to do his thing)... Well, chances are he never would've gotten to Shido's Shadow in the first place. And even if he did, the cognitions, his Shadow... all of that would've presented tremendous obstacles for him acting solo at that time. He likely would've had to get close to Shido to even gain access to most of his Palace, and by then, he would've effectively sealed his fate, even if he rebelled early. And Akechi's goal was to expose Shido at the peak of his popularity, make the *world* see what a monster he was. Was it smart? Hell no! But I think, deep down, he *knows* that, given that after the mask literally and figuratively breaks in the engine room, he genuinely laments how things went, tells the Thieves to kill him so he's out of their way, and sacrifices himself while begging them to stop Shido... and then there's everything third sem has to offer. Obviously, that doesn't erase the damage he did, but Akechi is meant to be this messy, complicated character and the crux of P5's themes of injustice toward children at the hands of ruthless adults. And we also see that Shido is *extremely* manipulated and used praise and other methods to further mold Akechi into his human weapon. Akechi loathes Shido, yet a part of him is vulnerable to his "adoration"... My problem with these kinds of arguments is that they ignore Akechi's victimhood to act like he should've acted rationally, but often traumatized people who are failed by society *don't* act rationally because life has given them very little reason to believe there's another way. His plan was reckless and stupid and he got himself caught up in a situation he couldn't escape on his own. And obviously, he has blood on his hands regardless of why and how, but that's the intentionality of the tragedy behind him. If he *had* just met Joker sooner, if he had a single person to support him rather than suffering under oppressive systems, then he wouldn't have walked such a path. Not that I think everyone has to like him. I just think the narrative and cultural context surrounding him are important to understanding why the writers set him up like this.
Akechi makes a lot of subconscious cries for help. Like he obviously had his head up his own ass during the entirety of November but this looks like he was starting to crack under the pressure of it all, even before the engine room meltdown.
YES. Absolutely. This is very much a cry for help, but I think his own pride made him far too stubborn to directly ask them for help, even though they would have listened (yes, even Haru and Futaba- they might not *forgive*, but they *understand*).
> (yes, even Haru and Futaba- they might not forgive, but they understand). This right here. They genuinely cannot stand the guy but if you ever think they, or the rest of the thieves, would abandon Akechi then you don't understand these characters at all.
Totally. I think the best example of this is rank 7 of his confidant, where he is subtly warning Joker that he's soon going to become collateral damage in his revenge plot. It's not a coincidence that you only unlock this rank in November, when the pressure would have really started building on him.
It seems to me like rank 7 unlocks after Joker hears the murder tape, tbh. A lot of what goes on in there has no real meaning if Joker doesn't know what Akechi is.
Yeah, they gave him some help, when they whooped his ass in the engine room. But the problem is that I as the player have more information about Akechi than the Phantom Thieves do. They don’t know anything other than what he tells them, and he didn’t tell them everything. They never knew that the whole “let’s take care of Shido’s political opponents” plan was originally Akechi’s, not Shido’s. He conveniently omitted that part to make the people he terrorized feel sorry for him. And I will concede that it worked on the PTs, but it didn’t work on me. I don’t feel sorry for the guy for having to face the consequences of his own actions.
Akechi approached Shido by getting him out of a scandal using his call of chaos ability, not through murder. By the end of the engine room it's very clear that Akechi is done making excuses for himself and expects to be punished for his actions, even if that's not how the phantom thieves go about it. Disliking him is valid though, Akechi is a very dislikable character. But at the end of the day he was written to be the sympathetic antagonist of the group and the game treats him accordingly.
To Me he's my Gary oak sure he's killed a few people but I killed his raticate so...
I really wish we got more akechi insight. I mean I remembered years ago there were rumors about Persona 5 AG which people thought would be about akechi (AG -> Akechi Goro). I’d love to learn more about how he ended up in the position he’s in during the main game. I’m still holding out hope cause of atlas’s love of milking their games till there’s not a drop left but the chances feel so low.
Yeah, the fact that these texts are so out of the way likely contributes to a lot of the misunderstandings about his characterization, made messier by some questionable localization choices. [Vashti] (https://vashtijoy.tumblr.com/post/715752908069748736/index-of-meta-posts) has some great blog posts that go into localization changes and other cool stuff in P5R.
Thank you for posting this! This adds a lot of necessary context. "This is the 5th time we're changing someone's heart, are we sure it's going to work this time?", "This is the 12th time we've spoken and texted about how much of an asshole *insert name here* is, are we really doing the right thing changing their heart?". It's shame this game wastes so much of its dialogue because it makes the good stuff easily missed. Plus, the game incentivizes you to finish the palaces early because your teammates won't hang out with you if you haven't gotten the treasure. I hope P6 handles this better!
Yeah, I think that's why they should've made this scripted instead. ESPECIALLY since these were also in vanilla, where Akechi had much less time to shine and thus people took him at a more surface level. These chats being scripted would've made sure nobody missed out and got a better idea of his mindset back in 2016. That, or have the game discourage doing Palace infiltrations too fast. Some way of communicating to players would help a lot.
Yeah, I agree. They should have been scripted! >Some way of communicating to players would help a lot. Considering how strongly the game hints to spend time with Maruki and we still get "Why didn't I get the third semester? I didn't know I was supposed to max Maruki!" posts, unless everything important was scripted, people would still miss it.
Yeah, that's true. Short of a blatant tutorial box, scripting is the only solution I can think of, too, and probably more organic for stuff like this.
Genuine question, how does the game hint towards spending time with Maruki?
The first day we meet him, we get him to rank 2 which doesn't happen with other confidants. The game also brings up the fact of him leaving in November a lot and makes him more available leading up to his last day. Plus, all throughtout the game, our teammates are shown going and talking to him. Our teammates have very little meaningful interactions with the other confidants (excluding family members obviously). They did just about everything they could without flashing a neon sign over his head and making his confidant progressed by the story.
I guess I’m built stupid because none of that would stick out to me as him being that important
I wouldn't say that but you do you. *shrug*
I know everyone is playing along with but I just wanted to point out that if a Shujin student murdered the humpty dumpty principal they would totally have motivation for it. Has everyone (in the game) forgotten how awful he is between covering up an abusive pedophile, using Makoto to do his dirty work because his lazy ass is useless etc. I really wouldn't be surprised if some Shujin students thought about pushing his fatass down the stairs to see if he'd bounce.
YEAH, that's a great point. Kobayakawa literally was complacent not only in Kamoshida's atrocities, but refused to lift a finger regarding the drug trafficking that affected Shujin students. He was only interested in his own self-interest.
Hell not even just drug trafficking because both Makoto and Eiko almost got caught up in sex trafficking. I'm sure that if he wasn't murdered than he would've been a mementos request in the late game
It's really fascinating how much content you can unlock in this game. You play, play and still doesn't see everything. And it's not even an open-world rpg.
Yeah, there's a ton of really interesting missable material in the game. This is just one example.
That's one of the reasons why people still play Skyrim. But Skyrim's open world, P5 not.
Media literacy in r/p5? No way.
I love to think about the meaning in the media I enjoy, haha. It's just fun to me.
It's weird to me that these texts just don't exist if you secure the route early. I don't really see a reason they couldn't still trigger when you walk into Leblanc in the evening. There's no plot reveals that happen upon securing the route, Akechi is still on the team until the actual mission date, and these conversations are almost entirely about the repercussions of the PREVIOUS palace.
Oh, I agree. There's really nothing that inherently ties these to the treasure route. They could've been scripted events, and it would've fit just fine. Every palace has these kinds of missable texts, so that's probably why, but it's a strange decision.
Man this threw me for a loop. I’ve never seen this before. I always finished everything quickly lol
Yeah, that's why I wanted to share this! So many people don't even know these chats exist.
Oh i remember these. I read all of the texts and i understood that the akechi was unintentionally leaving his feelings out. I never believed he killed for pleasure more like used to it. This was great foreshadowing for shido palace.
>I never believed he killed for pleasure Explain the third semester then when he is completely remorseless
I wouldn't call him remorseless *overall* in third semester- just in battle, and tbh, him getting catharsis from tearing through generic enemies in Maruki's Palace (or other enemy Shadows before that) makes sense, given the lack of personal freedom that pervades his narrative. (I do think he enjoyed killing Okumura, but tbh, I think people are way too quick to forget what an awful person Okumura was and all the people he had killed or undergo psychotic breakdowns for his own benefit. I think any adult that used Akechi excessively was an adult he had no moral objections to removing from the picture, which if anything only aligns with his offense in the 11/7 at the prospect that he solely does it for fun.) When he's not in battle, you definitely see signs of regret in Akechi. He's outraged when he's let off easy after turning himself in, makes no attempts to justify what he did to anyone and is focused on stopping Maruki for the sake of a) his own personal freedom, something he's never truly had, and b) everyone else's freedom. Hell, even when he holds his gun up at Maruki, it's a very cold reaction born more out of pragmatism (if the Thieves can't stop Maruki, *he'll do it*.) There's also some really interesting Jazz Jin conversations that shed more light into his mindset, with a lot of reflection and introspection. But I think his anger at the prospect of being granted pity after everything he's done speaks to his regrets, which is interesting since the devs [confirmed a part of him DID wish for a happier, simpler life with Joker and the Thieves] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/746252767760351232/have-you-seen-the-commentary-from-the-p5r-artbook?source=share).
Why is he angry about being released without charge, if he is completely remorseless?
He didn’t exactly apologize to Futaba or Haru, did he? I also have a theory that >!the Akechi we get in that part of the game was simply Joker’s cognition of him; ie the person Joker *thought* he was. And it wouldn’t even be the first time that’s been a thing in Persona. Hell, the whole thing with Adachi in Golden was Adachi telling Narukami that Yu made up his own version of Adachi in his head, and now he felt “betrayed” by him even though Adachi was never the kind of person Narukami thought he was. And I think that’s why Akechi is a cackling edgy boy screaming about “CHAOS” or whatever tf he was going on about while talking about how he refuses to be controlled. But he still wasn’t sorry about Wakaba and Okumura. Nope.!<
>**Haru:** And what if they weren't normal? >**Akechi:** Are you implying they kill for the sheer pleasure of it? Interesting. Given that's a complete non sequitur that exacerbates his sense of alienation from others due to his upbringing, I read the fact that he leaps to that form of aberration in morality and affect, as opposed to that which Haru actually intends, as confirmation of the pleasure that he derives from inflicting pain. Rather than reading her intentions, he leaps to the reality of things.
I just can't really see it as that with how openly he laments not meeting Joker sooner, how Joker's heart is free, the ways he dissuades Shido from having the rest of the Thieves killed, etc. I *do* think he enjoyed killing *Okumura* because Okumura used him as a tool quite frequently, and it likely brought him catharsis, but especially with how angry he is at getting off easy in third sem and the idea that he might get pity/mercy, I think he's very much aware of what he's done and doesn't truly take pride in it. There's just so much pointing to him being unhappy with his circumstances but sticking to it out of personal obligation due to having already started down this path. (I also imagine he has no objections to taking out the SIU Director, but I doubt every target is one he takes personal enjoyment in by any means.) Not that he doesn't enjoy letting off steam in the Metaverse- he clearly has a good time tearing through generic Shadows in third sem, but the way he approaches, say, Maruki during the final battle is a lot less MWA HA HA evil and more a cold determination to stop Maruki at all costs, even if it means doing what the Thieves are too hesitant to do.
This is certainly a possible reading, but I don't think it's like that. Firstly, if that was the case, there's no reason for him to leap in to justify himself, with a poorly-disguised explanation that we know to be true—"acting behind the scenes to accomplish some grand objective... it is even possible that he is being controlled." Second, the term he uses is a technical term, *kairaku satsujinsha*, literally "lust murderer". It's strongly associated with sex crimes. It doesn't seem like a term Akechi would apply to himself, or at least we never get any indication that he ought to.
Japan, as a whole, has always been completely backward for prioritizing everything else over human lives, in my opinion, and that'll never change To be honest, I felt what he did in the engine room, and the team-up with him during the third semester was completely unnecessary as the shadows cognitive Akechi brought with him were weak so mowing them and Cognitive Akechi down without any trouble... As for the third semester, Maruki was effectively the same as Yaldabaoth but with a different approach, so they didn't need Akechi's help there either While he is also a victim, I don't have any sympathy or empathy for him
Main thing I disagree on is the thieves being in the know. Aside from Joker, Morgana, and Futaba anyway. Because based on their behavior inside and out of the Palace, I can only assume one or two things. 1) Ryuji, Ann, Yusuke, Makoto, and Haru all suddenly gained the miraculous ability to act, but it came at the cost of half their brain cells because they keep putting themselves in unnecessary compromising situations where they can blow their cover. 2) They haven't been informed yet and it isn't an act. I lean towards the second because while Joker and Morgana can't participate in the same way as the others, Futaba can and her behavior stands as a sharp contrast to the others. Everyone is treating Akechi as one would expect if he weren't the culprit. Everyone from our two hotheads, Ryuji and Makoto, the infamously bad actor Ann, and Haru who *just* had her father killed. Meanwhile Futaba is extremely passive aggressive and treats Akechi almost as poorly as she does Yusuke. Everyone keeps taliing about their situation and, if they do know the truth, are putting thrmselves in dangerous situations where they're more likely to slip up. Except Futaba, who seems to ve trying to drop the subject.
You're assuming here that the PTs are acting, rather than concealing what they know. Ann, for instance, isn't lying when she says "guys, don't you think he's like us?"—that is what she really thinks, and that's the point the narrative hammers home. In the same way, when Haru asks Akechi "why do you seek justice?", she isn't acting—she really wants to know, and her whole characterisation around Akechi supports that. Haru and Futaba's needling of him alone indicates that they know; Futaba's behaviour towards him is wholly consistent with her being the PT least inclined to give Akechi any leeway at all, and for good reason, but *Haru* is just as passive-aggressive—"Even someone like you doesn't know", and "He used my father as well". And by the time they go into the palace on 10/29, you can see the others needling Akechi in just this passive-aggressive way. Makoto's leaping in with "Controlled? By whom?" indicates that she knows—because this is a point that she registers *at once*, and will return to on 11/20—"Akechi is just a tool." In short, the situation is complicated. As for "blowing their cover"... I'm not sure the PTs are really that cautious, tbh. It isn't really in character for any of them to cower in the shadows.
Your first point is irrelevant since we *know* they didn't know about Akechi yet. Joker first told Futaba about the situation later that night. And it requires a *lot* of acting because you have to constantly treat Akechi like an ally and honorable adversary, not a psychopath who has murdered loved ones and plans to kill you all. It requires a lot of subtlety, being cordial and respectful without being too friendly. Futaba falls on both counts, yet somehow everyone else pulls it off?
But all of them act in ways that are consistent with their overall attitudes and behaviour, which is why the things they say on 10/26 and 10/28 are relevant. Each PT has a different attitude to Akechi. And while they may be more or less angry with him or opposed to him (depending on where in the plot they are), those attitudes remain remarkably consistent. A large part of the point of the November arc, and its tragedy, comes from the fact that Akechi *could* have been a real part of the team. He could have been their friend. The bonds which will be on display later in the engine room develop in November. What you call acting, I think is their bond with him (and his with them) forming against all of their will. The PTs are being themselves, trying to draw someone victimised by a rotten adult in out of the dark—otherwise, their later interactions with Akechi have no meaning. Besides anything else, the idea that the PTs don't tell *Haru* that she'll be working with her father's murderer, the same PTs who later on will be so exquisitely careful to give her and Futaba a veto over Akechi's involvement in the thrd semester—I just don't buy that. Plus, we know that the PTs decide everything unilaterally. It would be hard to do that if most of them have no idea what's going on. They do know.
I'd have to rewatch the scenes that cover the reveal about the bait and switch plan. I know that they definitely know by 11/18 for obvious reasons, but I suppose it depends on when Futaba actually bugged his phone (my memory is fuzzy on the exact date) as well as how soon the other Thieves were informed of everything. Haru's behavior feels very pointed, and apparently the Japanese version is even more pointed (I wanna say Vashti's reblog in the linked post touches on this- she definitely covered it *somewhere*, so I may have to dig for it). Still, completely fair points and interpretation! EDIT: [Here] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/750420121733971968/while-this-is-hilarious-i-need-to-point-out-that?source=share) is where Vashti touches on Haru and Akechi on 11/7 and localization differences, if folks wanna draw their own conclusions.
Thanks! Will check it later when my cousin's on and get his take too. Anyway, she bugged his phone the first day of Palace infiltration. The day before, Joker called her over and told her about Akechi. Considering Makoto almost sabotaged her effort by drawing attention, I doubt she knew then. As you said, sometime before the the 18th, the others would have been told, but it's never specified when. Although I did notice on the day of the heist, if you have a team meeting in the safe room, Makoto subtly tells everyone to keep an eye on Akechi.
Yeah, so it's possible they already do know pretty early on. It seems important to keep them on the same page, so there's a pragmatic reason behind it.
Just thought I should mention that there’s Thieves’ Den dialogue from Yusuke where he says it’s hard to keep an act up for such a long time, to which Akechi replies that you get used to it after doing it for a while.
It's possible, but I doubt he would have told them before Futaba gathered evidence. It would actually be detrimental. Same reason he kept it hidden for so long before the 26th: The Phantom Thieves, as a whole, aren't good at keeping their cool. There's the risk they will slip. Joker brings it up with Morgana when he needs to consult him. He brings it up with Futaba when he needs her help. I imagine the best time to inform the others would be after getting proof and needing help with planning.
https://preview.redd.it/o2ovtyvdcoad1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2c014ef18bf6ab5e6866c0184bfdd27b65523e2 Ackechi: Haha, harsh as always.
Oh yeah, the guy who laughs maniacally when he kills didn't get any pleasure from killing Haru and Futaba's parents.
He laughs maniacally while fighting his way through enemy Shadows, but that doesn't mean he took pleasure in killing Wakaba. Keep in mind, he was *fifteen* when he got started, and he he makes all these comments in November about how if Wakaba had agreed to work w/ Shido, it wouldn't have come to that. That's not the kinda thing someone with no regrets would say (and keep in mind this comes right off the heels of him insisting there's no need to kill the other Thieves.) I'm sure he enjoyed killing Okumura because Okumura used him just like Shido did, so there was likely a level of spite and catharsis. That doesn't mean he gleefully awaits every hit, considering he's so bitter about how Joker's heart is free. If he truly had no regrets or remorse, he wouldn't wish he had met Joker years ago, begged for the Thieves to change Shido's heart, or acted with so much anger at being let off easy in Maruki's reality. Akechi's whole role in third sem is about how he no longer wishes to be someone else's puppet and wants to be *free*, even if that freedom comes at the cost of his life, because after being a pawn for others for so long, he understands the value of personal autonomy and believes it's worth fighting for. There's room for nuance and complexity to his character and to boil him down to just evil laughter really misses a lot of the depth behind him, especially with Royal in mind.
there's no such thing as being maniacally sadistic towards one thing but not others.
You'd better take that up with Haru, then, who describes the thrill she gets from killing Shadows in the same terms as Akechi uses to talk about combat.
Yeah, and that fucking sucks. It's not only bad for the character but also such a clichê. At the very least though, we never saw Haru killing people. We have seen Akechi kill people.
Yep, and so you know that he doesn't behave the way he usually does in combat at that time—*including* in the interrogation room, when he's committed to killing Ren, and wants to kill him (for whatever reason). But there's also so much more to it than that.
We clearly read that scene differently then. The dude was literally smiling and bragging. What do you mean he doesn't behave that way?
I don't understand this infantilization that the fandom does with Akechi. Is it because of the ships with Joker?
Acknowledging character complexity isn't infantalization. The game *repeatedly* emphasizes that Akechi is a victim *as well* as a perpetrator. His confidant in Royal literally has him give Joker a warning in Rank 7 (which only unlocks after Joker would have heard the bugged phone call). Right after engine room, you get: **Haru:** Honestly, I have mixed feelings... but I think he was a victim too. **Ann:** A victim we couldn't save... **Yusuke:** Had I not met you all, I may have become like him as well... That's the point Persona 5 wants people to remember. Akechi still did kill Wakaba and Okumura, but that doesn't mean he enjoyed every hit with a smile. The adults who used him as a tool? Certainly. Okumura was a piece of shit who exploited him just as much as Shido, but when the game hammers it in that he was set up to fail by Yaldabaoth, molded into an assassin by Shido, and harbors deep resentment for his circumstances... That's just stating in-game facts. :/ It's what the game *deliberately* communicates. Especially if you look into the Japanese cultural context surrounding illegitimate children and the children of sex workers and the immense societal discrimination, Akechi is very much designed as a foil to the Thieves- what they could have been without each other. If you're gonna ignore all of that, fine, but his Royal confidant, third semester Jazz Jin conversations, and so much more only add to the points I made in the initial post. Note that I never said that he did *nothing* wrong. All I said was that his feelings are not so clear cut as enjoying it.
Yes, of course, the "yes I am a terrible person, but have you ever considered the fact that I was sad once?" bullshit. I don't care about it. As far as we know all the villains in the game had a tragedy that made them the way they are. Also, please enlighten me, who would you say was the (living) person Akechi cared the most?
Cripe's sake. The game makes it *extremely* clear that... - Yaldabaoth gave him the power, preying upon his trauma and pain at the lowest point in his life, when he had *nothing* else to live for beyond his hatred for Shido, who is *unquestionably a monster*. - Shido instructed him on how to use his powers "properly" and had him kill Wakaba. Keeping in mind that Shido was a politician with a lot of connections and even his own cleaner, Akechi was screwed the moment he approached Shido as a dumb fifteen year old. - Akechi did not have a Morgana to show him another way. *There is a reason* he looks so upset when he finds out how the Changes of Heart work. This is consistent with later moments like his moments of regret in the Engine Room and his willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of putting an end to Shido's evil, not to mention his belief that the true reality and everyone's freedom of choice matters more than a world where he could atone for his crimes (Maruki confirms this is his wish), not to mention the [P5R interview] (https://www.tumblr.com/vashtijoy/746252767760351232/have-you-seen-the-commentary-from-the-p5r-artbook?source=share) confirming that he genuinely *did* wish he could've had a simpler friendship with Joker and the Thieves. The insistence that Akechi's behavior toward random enemy Shadows in third semester, which aren't the Shadows of people, is indicative of how he handled every hit is just factually incorrect based on the information we have. You're outright ignoring the depth of his confidant, third semester (both missable and mandatory story scenes), just to focus on *what* he did rather than the clear intentionality from the writers. It is possible to empathize with a character while acknowledging their crimes. Plenty of characters in fiction fill similar archetypes as Akechi (Vegeta is a big one). The fact that you're boiling my points down to something so shallow already suggests you don't want to engage in good faith, so I'll leave it at that.
Whoa whoa whoa, how do you know if Shido didn't had a terribly tragic past? What if his dog died when he was a kid and he never got over it :'( Also, since you didn't responded: Joker is someone who Akechi undeniable cares. And what was his facial expression when he shot "Joker" in the face?
Akechi obviously cared about his mother. He cares about Ren and the Phantom Thieves, which is why (per in-game narrative text) he gives his life to save them, and especially why he reacts the way he does if you take Maruki's deal on 2/2. He cares about Shido despite himself, as is revealed at several points, including in in-game text that describes them as having "a love-hate relationship". He cares about Yoshizawa, as comes up not just in the third semester but in P5T. He cares enough about Futaba, even, to call Sae out on threatening Sojiro's guardianship of her on 9/13. The onus is on you to provide justification for *your* interpretation—if you can manage to do it in any way other than "I didn't pay attention to this game". Your not understanding what's going on does not justify you in talking down to everyone else.
Bro literally fucking died for his friends idk what other show of good faith people expect of Akechi. Even Futaba and Haru aren't this contrarian about him, maybe people just have a skill issue.
How did Akechi reacted to killing "Joker"? Was he crying? Was he regretful?
Nobody's saying Akechi isn't warped. How did you miss everything else that goes on with them? How did you do Shido's Palace, for instance, without noticing that Akechi has what we'll call "issues" with friendship and trust?—and the dramatic way those issues are resolved at the end of the fight? Did you see him delay killing the other Phantom Thieves, when Shido commanded it? Did you see him lie about Morgana? Did you see him fall back against the wall when Shido brought Ren's suicide back up? Did you see the look on his face when he looked down at the dead cop? Did you see him *refuse* to kill Ren, when he could have done that and had a chance at following through on his revenge? Did you see how mad he was about being released without charge in January?
So he takes pleasure killing a person he cares about, but when he kills Futaba's mother any other innocent person he doesn't. God this character is so trash. It boggles my mind that the entire fandom finds him so good and "complex".
You are boring me. Why don't you run along and play Candy Crush, that seems about your level.
Haru states point blank she gets really excited when she kills shadows. It's not even a joke either she's being serious. Most characters do because their shadows their not people and characters really hate them (understandably so). I think the only "exception" is makoto because of her overly cautious nature.
She sure does, and it sucks when she does it. Sure it's basically just played for humor, but it still really bad(also pretty clichê as well). Also, at the very least(and i still hate it) she only kills shadows, whereas we have in fact seen Akechi killing people.
I mean I don't think it's a moral failing for the characters to enjoy killing shadows since 1. Their evil 2. Not real And also I just think that's such a nothing argument against this person's post. It's litterly texts from the game and it's backed up by what's stated in the engine room and basically all of royal.
Lol were you expecting me to change my mind by pointing the Haru problem? And look, i'm not going to make a moral judgement about you as a person, after all we are still talking about ficional characters, but in the end of the day you can talk to them. They can decide to join you. They are sentient beings. Maybe not all are as smart as us but still fairly capable of communicating. And i'm not making an argument on canonicity. It being canon or not means nothing to me. My point is that it's shitty writing.
You mean the persona shadows? Dude a lot of them are acting under the palaces ruler but even when their not their still just doing things for the fun of it. Even if they are sentient their still /mostly/ evil. Shit in persona 3 and 4 their just completely evil. Also like...it's not shitty writing just because you don't like it? The writing is litterly "look how society failed this guy and lead him to do these things this is bad we shouldn't let people get to the point where they do these things, Also friendships and relationships with other people are very important and self isolation and wallowing in your own misery are bad and lead to bad things" also the game NEVER excuses his crimes and never endorses him or what he did. Life isn't black and white and neither is persona games.
I don't think there's a more polite way to say this, but if you think this is good you need to start playing and watching different games. The bad guy who was sad? Come on man, give me something better. Also his plan is completely ridiculous. Wanting to get revenge on your dad by... helping him get to the top of the world and kill dozens of innocent people to do that? Come on. "Complex" doesn't mean good. And the game definitely does treats him in a weird way. He fucking killed the parents of two members of the team and the two are still "I don't like you but i understand you"?. Fuuuck ooff. I actually felt gross simply having him on my party. It would be like having Kamoshida as a party member. When i saw the scene of him killing Joker i was already thinking about how Akechi was going to get killed, but of course the game would go to the "he's just a person who got hurt a lot isn't it sad? :'(" and shit all over that already shat on arch. Then comes the third semester and the game decides to do a "sure the character is you, but not really, he does has his own opinions" and make Joker's deep care for Akechi as the reason why he's alive. Motherfucker he shot a version of me in the face with a smile, i would be dancing in starlight in his grave if i could.
Do you only play baby games? Like do you litterly only play games for babies because fucking pokiemon games have characters who apposed you morally and try to defeat you and yet you end up coming to a understanding of the character. And like this trope of "character who tries to kill the mc has a complex relationship with the mc and they somewhat come to a understanding/the mc helps them out" is not only been happening in the series since p2 but is a very common theme in not only jrps but rpgs in general. Komishida directly sexually harassed Ann and assaulted her best friend causing her to try to kill herself. As stated in the game BY HARU AND FUTABA MIND YOU. Akechi wasn't the mastermind behind their parents demise he was a tool and the fact that he was his father and using him like that was disgusting. They do not forgive him. They state many many times they do not forgive him. You can't play cards on the theives den with him and them because they do not forgive him. Haru says she will take him out if he attacks them again. Other characters express sympathy with him not that they like him or that they forgive him. They express disliking him many times even when they work with him in the third semester. "He was a self insert and then not" Yeah believe it or not the mcs of all the games is only kinda a self insert. There are still base things about the character you can't change. Just because you don't like it doesn't matter.
There are plenty of good antagonists in this game. Kamoshida is a great antagonist. You really get to hate him. Shido could have been written better, but the basis is good. The problem is trying to make them "uwu please be a part of our team" despite the fact that they are still terrible. Akechi doesn't even regret anything. He didn't undergo a change of heart. In a way he's even worse then the other villains, because at least with all the other palace owners we know they trully regret what they did and will most likely never do it again. >Komishida directly sexually harassed Ann and assaulted her best friend causing her to try to kill herself. I'm sorry, do you think killing dozens of people, including the parents of two members of the party, and shooting you in the face is better than this? Seriously? >As stated in the game BY HARU AND FUTABA MIND YOU. You pointing out how badly written this plot point is means nothing to me. It only proves my point that the game has kid gloves for Akechi for no reason at all. Yes, they do that, and it's TERRIBLE. >Akechi wasn't the mastermind behind their parents demise he was a tool and the fact that he was his father and using him like that was disgusting. Yeah, he was a tool. And he decided to become his tool, with his stupid plot of "i'll avenge my mother by helping him all the way and creating a trail of corpses on said way" >They state many many times they do not forgive him. You can't play cards on the theives den with him and them because they do not forgive him. And yet we still have to have him on the party. >Haru says she will take him out if he attacks them again. Wooow she said she will attack a person if that person attacks them. Incredible. >Other characters express sympathy with him not that they like him or that they forgive him. They express disliking him many times even when they work with him in the third semester. Exactly. They still express sympathy. They still work with him. That's the problem. >"He was a self insert and then not" Yeah believe it or not the mcs of all the games is only kinda a self insert. There are still base things about the character you can't change. Just because you don't like it doesn't matter. If i don't like it, i will criticize it. What's your point?
>In a way he's even worse then the other villains, because at least with all the other palace owners we know they trully regret what they did and will most likely never do it again. In royal he attempts to turn himself in t answer for his crimes and so joker can go free. At the end of the game he beleives he is sacrificing his existence so everyone can go back to their true reality. >I'm sorry, do you think killing dozens of people, including the parents of two members of the party, and shooting you in the face is better than this? Seriously? He is a hitman. A hit man kills people for either money or to establish a personal goal in akechis case. No this does not justify murder of fucking course not but no one has a reason to sexually harass and assault anyone. And the reason why a lot of people like a hitman or even a character who murders for fun more then a rapist is because most people don't have irl experince with a hitman/murder. This is a stupid fucking comparison. >Yeah, he was a tool. And he decided to become his tool, with his stupid plot of "i'll avenge my mother by helping him all the way and creating a trail of corpses on said way" First of all you don't have the plot correct. "I will get him to trust me, get him everything he ever wanted, revil myself to him so he will be forced to acknowledge me and then I will kill him." That plot is stupid as fuck no one is saying its a good one because of course it's not. It's a plot driven by grief, revenge, and isolation. It's supposed to be stupid because he's blinded by his own feelings so he doesn't make a "well thought out rational plan". >And yet we still have to have him on the party. They litterly state they are only working with him to accomplish their goal. They do not hang out with him, they don't have fun conversations with him, they don't invite him to the movies. They are co workers at best at this point. It's not a unheard of plot of characters who have tried to kill each other working together to defeat a common enemy. >Wooow she said she will attack a person if that person attacks them. Incredible. No she says she will take him out. Not attack him she will kill him if he gets in her way. This is her stating how while she will work with him she will not tolerate him if he steps out of line. >Exactly. They still express sympathy. They still work with him. That's the problem. So you want them to be unsymlathic twords people? You critize them for enjoying killing shadows but you don't want them to show actual sympathy twords actual alive people. You realize how stupid that is right and how much that actually violates their characters right. That's why they are so effective because they express sympathy for people who are often scorned at by society. >If i don't like it, i will criticize it. What's your point? Did you only read the last part. You play a game that is only a semi self insert and get mad when the character has his own traits. That is just a you issue. You can critize a game for whatever but it's a whiney critism. Oh nooo they gave the mc his own character how dare they!!
I honestly can't fathom that a person will think Kamoshida is such a monster and they be fine with Akechi being a party member. How is that possible? Would you have no problem at all with Kamoshida being a party member?
Yeah beleive it or not some people dislike the rapists pedofile more then the assassin what a shocker.
>You mean the persona shadows? Dude a lot of them are acting under the palaces ruler but even when their not their still just doing things for the fun of it. Even if they are sentient their still /mostly/ evil. Shit in persona 3 and 4 their just completely evil. Lol ok so you did thought i was going to change my mind by pointing Haru's behavior huh? No, i don't care, i think her liking to kill shadows is cringe. There's plenty of evil characters in this game and we don't kill any of them.
Of course I didn't expect you to change your mind. I pointed it out because that's another character (and arguably every character from 3-5) because every character expresses joy in killing them with like two exceptions makoto and Naoto because of their serious/cautious nature's. I was just pointing out how stupid of a argument that is because most characters enjoy combat with the enemies in litterly everysingle game ever.
All you are proving when you say these things is that the writing of the game is bad. Is that your endgame?
The writing is bad because in litterly every rpg ever most party members like killing bad guys? How?