You would probably defend Japanese internment with this kind of reasoning. Russian tourists are not the problem. This is just tribalism and spiteful collective punishment.
Not granting a visa to citizens of a certain country cannot be compared to interning any kind of people at all. Internment is a form of imprisonment, while not granting a visa is just restricting access to a country.
There is a massive difference between holding your neighbor imprisoned in your basement and not letting your neighbor enter your home.
Ohh, but California is under immediate threat of invasion. We're just going to intern some Japanese citizens so that they can feel the pain for what they're country did, and so we can protect ourselves from spies. It's for the greater good. Why do they have Japanese citizenship anyway: people living in the US should only have American citizenship.
When you fall for the "collective guilty" mindset that you're appealing to, you would easily agree with the above reasoning. You can act like you won't, but if you were honest, you would admit it.
There is absolutely 0 reason to ban Russian tourists. Literally none. The only reason they want to do it is out of pure spite and collective guilt.
I don‘t hold the collective guilt mindset. I belive if they want asylum to flee Russia, we should happily grant it. But I see no reason why I should let them come to my home, if they chose to keep living in a country that wages an aggressive war against everything we believe in.
Why not let people tour your countries? What are they doing? Those damn Russians, how dare they look at the Eiffel Tower!
This stuff is actually how you start a world war. It does nothing to help get peace. It does nothing to help Ukraine fight back. All it does it divide people further because of some tribalistic notion of group justice.
The Russians actively support their government in a brutal imperialist war. Entry into our countries is a privilege, not a right. We have no obligation to let Russians in and if Russia is actively fucking things up in the east and sending out waves of refugees while causing mass destruction, his people are going to lose the ability to associate with our countries.
This is not how you start a world war. Invading another country and promising to invade more is how you start a world war
>This is not how you start a world war. Invading another country and promising to invade more is how you start a world war
You mean like the War on terror?
Or China's annexation of Tibet?
ive said it before and ill say it again, democracy means majority vote, and even if i dislike trump he still got voted in fair and square.
edit: im european and libleft
Democracy doesn't mean majority vote. Just because that's the default in many countries doesn't mean other it's the definition, a prerequisite, or even the ideal.
The US system is absolutely democracy, at least in theory.
We dont do popular vote because we aren’t a single nation. We’re a collection of nations bound together. It works like the UN almost where you generally dont vote in specific Reps but you elect a party that dictates them
The sovereign states of America came together and formed a union, and overtime the federal government has slowly eroded their sovereignty and usurped more power for itself.
Concentration of power is dangerous, and is more easily corrupted. Every time they take more power they always have some virtuous sounding justification, and every time it means less liberty for all individuals.
Wait until you hear how all of the EU elects their PMs.
Anyway, perhaps you should read what Madison wrote (Federalist #10) about pluralism, and the dangers of majority rule?
https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-government-and-civics/us-gov-foundations/us-gov-government-power-and-individual-rights/v/federalist-papers-10-part-2
Online gaming sure is fun these days. Ironically it’s usually western Europeans that insult russians. Ukrainians and Russians just seem to ignore each other.
There's a weird amount of Russian Racism, or as the cool kids are calling it, rushism going around, were all forgetting the alarming amount of people against the Russia Ukraine war in russia?
We should all know by now that in a government like that, the people do not represent the decisions
Nah, NATO is the ideal vessel to lull the Americans into a false sense of security.
American won't put sanctions on us for example when we inevitably come around to bombing the serbs again, because they think they are also doing it just because of NATO.
And this is xenophobic... how?
Getting to visit a country *is* a privilege. If it were an inalienable human right, what purpose would border control serve at all? Sovereign countries do have the right to decide they don't want to associate with Russia because of the war plus genocide-in-the-making going on in Ukraine.
How are we supposed to fight back anyway without going to war against Russia? Since nuking the Kremlin isn't on the table, the best option is to make it miserable to be a Russian. They'll reach a breaking point eventually and have to decide whether their livelihood means more than their beloved strong leader and delusions of becoming a mighty empire again.
Because Russian tourists are not the ones who are causing the war. All this does is get everyone pissed off at each other, and lead us away from peace.
It will only increase Russian morale and is completely counterproductive to pretty much any foreign policy aim.
The only reason for it is a desire for spite and collective punishment, which, yes, is a form of xenophobia. Saying "let's punish those damn Russian tourists because their government is doing X, and those tourists should feel it" is just knee-jerk backwards tribalism.
Okay, what *can* we do, then? If you think excluding the tourists from entering a few select countries is such a horrible atrocity, I'm guessing you find the economic sanctions unfair too, since they hit the ordinary Russians the hardest - and no doubt they hurt worse than not being able to go shopping in Finland.
We supposed to just fucking pray Putin will stop?
Economic sanctions have a legitimate purpose. Hurting an economy which is actively at war can be justified. We shouldn't be complicit with an economy which is at war.
Banning Russian tourists out of some backwards notion of group justice is just stupid.
If you think banning Russian tourists is literally doing anything to stop the war in Ukraine, you're a dunce. Instead of spending resources on going after Russian tourists, we should focus on sending weapons and aid to Ukraine to fight back, or at the very least, stall out the war. That's the best way to end the war.
What resources would we be spending by *not* accepting their visa applications? Sounds like that would free up time *and* resources to handle applications from political dissidents and other asylum seekers. You know, people who have a much better reason for wanting to enter the country.
I suppose just rejecting all Russian visas doesn't take many resources, you're right.
Tourism is generally a net economic benefit to a country though, since they spend money and bring business. Banning them is literally hurting your economy. Better that they're being tourists and spending money in your country than staying home and possibly being conscripted.
>Sovereign countries do have the right to decide they don't want to associate with Russia because of the war plus genocide-in-the-making going on in Ukraine
Half the countries do messed up stuff, including China and US. Why are we letting their tourists in
And Russia was doing messed up stuff since the fall of the USSR. Why were we letting rusdian tourists in back then?
>They'll reach a breaking point eventually and have to decide whether their livelihood means more than their beloved strong leader and delusions of becoming a mighty empire again.
And how exactly do you suggest the russians stop putin? They have no weapons, no chance to protest, no real elections.
I disagree, think about it from there perspective. Russia is actively trying to tear down Europe in everyway execpt war and you're just supposed to let them in and enjoy your amenities/luxuries?
Werid take.
"visiting Europe is a privilege, not a human right" super based
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The only thing more cringe than changing one's flair is not having one. You are cringe.
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Banning citizens from a country you are in a proxy war with isn‘t xenophobia.
You would probably defend Japanese internment with this kind of reasoning. Russian tourists are not the problem. This is just tribalism and spiteful collective punishment.
Not granting a visa to citizens of a certain country cannot be compared to interning any kind of people at all. Internment is a form of imprisonment, while not granting a visa is just restricting access to a country. There is a massive difference between holding your neighbor imprisoned in your basement and not letting your neighbor enter your home.
Ohh, but California is under immediate threat of invasion. We're just going to intern some Japanese citizens so that they can feel the pain for what they're country did, and so we can protect ourselves from spies. It's for the greater good. Why do they have Japanese citizenship anyway: people living in the US should only have American citizenship. When you fall for the "collective guilty" mindset that you're appealing to, you would easily agree with the above reasoning. You can act like you won't, but if you were honest, you would admit it. There is absolutely 0 reason to ban Russian tourists. Literally none. The only reason they want to do it is out of pure spite and collective guilt.
I don‘t hold the collective guilt mindset. I belive if they want asylum to flee Russia, we should happily grant it. But I see no reason why I should let them come to my home, if they chose to keep living in a country that wages an aggressive war against everything we believe in.
You have a very childish mindset on this. Russia is Europe’s biggest threat right now, why let their people tour your countries
Why not let people tour your countries? What are they doing? Those damn Russians, how dare they look at the Eiffel Tower! This stuff is actually how you start a world war. It does nothing to help get peace. It does nothing to help Ukraine fight back. All it does it divide people further because of some tribalistic notion of group justice.
The Russians actively support their government in a brutal imperialist war. Entry into our countries is a privilege, not a right. We have no obligation to let Russians in and if Russia is actively fucking things up in the east and sending out waves of refugees while causing mass destruction, his people are going to lose the ability to associate with our countries. This is not how you start a world war. Invading another country and promising to invade more is how you start a world war
>This is not how you start a world war. Invading another country and promising to invade more is how you start a world war You mean like the War on terror? Or China's annexation of Tibet?
ive said it before and ill say it again, democracy means majority vote, and even if i dislike trump he still got voted in fair and square. edit: im european and libleft
Democracy doesn't mean majority vote. Just because that's the default in many countries doesn't mean other it's the definition, a prerequisite, or even the ideal. The US system is absolutely democracy, at least in theory.
We dont do popular vote because we aren’t a single nation. We’re a collection of nations bound together. It works like the UN almost where you generally dont vote in specific Reps but you elect a party that dictates them
The sovereign states of America came together and formed a union, and overtime the federal government has slowly eroded their sovereignty and usurped more power for itself. Concentration of power is dangerous, and is more easily corrupted. Every time they take more power they always have some virtuous sounding justification, and every time it means less liberty for all individuals.
That's a cool story and all, but Trump did not get the majority of votes, nor am I sure what this has to do with the post
Wait until you hear how all of the EU elects their PMs. Anyway, perhaps you should read what Madison wrote (Federalist #10) about pluralism, and the dangers of majority rule? https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-government-and-civics/us-gov-foundations/us-gov-government-power-and-individual-rights/v/federalist-papers-10-part-2
That's a cool story bro, but I'm not sure what that's got to do with my comment when I wasn't arguing one way or the other
i meant in 2016, my bad
Fair and square? Trump lost the popular vote.
i meant in 2016, my bad
That’s what I mean. Hillary won more votes than trump in 2016!
> majority vote > Trump Yeah, you're definitely European :)
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as in like from 2016-2020, hillary vs trump. lmao
Trump never got a majority vote though
By design. Lincoln didn't either.
is in, compared to hillary
Online gaming sure is fun these days. Ironically it’s usually western Europeans that insult russians. Ukrainians and Russians just seem to ignore each other.
knowing Russian and English is invaluable in game chats
I'll show you a BBC, silly Euros
There's a weird amount of Russian Racism, or as the cool kids are calling it, rushism going around, were all forgetting the alarming amount of people against the Russia Ukraine war in russia? We should all know by now that in a government like that, the people do not represent the decisions
Yes, we should not let in the orcs. Problems?
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As a Finn, I am not a fan of Marin but she is right on this, ban the Russians from crossing the border. Never wad fond of Russian tourists anyway.
europe challenge: try not to have a superiority complex for 5 minutes (99% fail)
It is a 100% success rate because we are actually superior so it is not a complex q.e.d.
Based
Based
Finally, we can get out of nato
Who are you? What does "we" refer to?
We are that which we are
As a Western European, we should get out of nato.
Nah, NATO is the ideal vessel to lull the Americans into a false sense of security. American won't put sanctions on us for example when we inevitably come around to bombing the serbs again, because they think they are also doing it just because of NATO.
Suomi mainittu! Torilla tavataan! SUOMI, PERKELE!!!
And this is xenophobic... how? Getting to visit a country *is* a privilege. If it were an inalienable human right, what purpose would border control serve at all? Sovereign countries do have the right to decide they don't want to associate with Russia because of the war plus genocide-in-the-making going on in Ukraine. How are we supposed to fight back anyway without going to war against Russia? Since nuking the Kremlin isn't on the table, the best option is to make it miserable to be a Russian. They'll reach a breaking point eventually and have to decide whether their livelihood means more than their beloved strong leader and delusions of becoming a mighty empire again.
Because Russian tourists are not the ones who are causing the war. All this does is get everyone pissed off at each other, and lead us away from peace. It will only increase Russian morale and is completely counterproductive to pretty much any foreign policy aim. The only reason for it is a desire for spite and collective punishment, which, yes, is a form of xenophobia. Saying "let's punish those damn Russian tourists because their government is doing X, and those tourists should feel it" is just knee-jerk backwards tribalism.
Okay, what *can* we do, then? If you think excluding the tourists from entering a few select countries is such a horrible atrocity, I'm guessing you find the economic sanctions unfair too, since they hit the ordinary Russians the hardest - and no doubt they hurt worse than not being able to go shopping in Finland. We supposed to just fucking pray Putin will stop?
Economic sanctions have a legitimate purpose. Hurting an economy which is actively at war can be justified. We shouldn't be complicit with an economy which is at war. Banning Russian tourists out of some backwards notion of group justice is just stupid. If you think banning Russian tourists is literally doing anything to stop the war in Ukraine, you're a dunce. Instead of spending resources on going after Russian tourists, we should focus on sending weapons and aid to Ukraine to fight back, or at the very least, stall out the war. That's the best way to end the war.
What resources would we be spending by *not* accepting their visa applications? Sounds like that would free up time *and* resources to handle applications from political dissidents and other asylum seekers. You know, people who have a much better reason for wanting to enter the country.
I suppose just rejecting all Russian visas doesn't take many resources, you're right. Tourism is generally a net economic benefit to a country though, since they spend money and bring business. Banning them is literally hurting your economy. Better that they're being tourists and spending money in your country than staying home and possibly being conscripted.
>Sovereign countries do have the right to decide they don't want to associate with Russia because of the war plus genocide-in-the-making going on in Ukraine Half the countries do messed up stuff, including China and US. Why are we letting their tourists in And Russia was doing messed up stuff since the fall of the USSR. Why were we letting rusdian tourists in back then? >They'll reach a breaking point eventually and have to decide whether their livelihood means more than their beloved strong leader and delusions of becoming a mighty empire again. And how exactly do you suggest the russians stop putin? They have no weapons, no chance to protest, no real elections.
Well yeah Russia is their enemy
Yeah lets ignore the russian invasion
An aggressive war of aggression.
I disagree, think about it from there perspective. Russia is actively trying to tear down Europe in everyway execpt war and you're just supposed to let them in and enjoy your amenities/luxuries? Werid take.