If you're half-decent at it, "making it up as you go" is a great DM style though. Allows for a lot of freedom for your players, and gives a lot more roleplay opportunity than a scripted campaign.
Example: My party decided to stop at a random fishing village along the way to their next quest destination. This turned into them having a party, 1 member picking up fishing as a skill, and another deciding to go into jewelry making from seashells. They also became well-acquainted with the villagers which I now plan to use for something important at some point in the future.
As a DM, you gotta be able to wing it. You have have the most well thought out, beautiful crafted plot line all ready for your party, then they come along and go “ooo, shiny thing”.
Yeah Sith Lords we’re originally going to be just space ninjas who hate guns but love space magic and Vader wasn’t even Luke’s father, but none of it felt like it made sense so he had some lines ad libbed and now we have what we have.
In a roundabout way, the line about the clone wars created the prequels, which show the rise of Palpatine and the Rule of Two, which was created by Bane
The best plan---
Make it up as you go along, listen to the audience fan theories, take the best parts of it, and include those into your story as if it was your idea all along.
I just don't see, logically, why they'd ever be called The Clone Wars in universe. If both sides used clones I could understand it or if there were some kind of clone uprising sure.
Instead it was essentially a civil war/war of secession. To liken it to History no one calls the English Civil War the Parliamentarian Wars.
If I heard “The Clone Wars” for the first time today, and knew nothing about the prequel trilogy, I would assume it was some sort of revolt of an underclass of clones a la cylons or replicants. And there would be a lot of drama and espionage about people who didn’t know they were clones, cloning political leaders, the rights of clones to exist independent of their originals. The ethics of an army of clones bred to die would actually be interrogated even a little bit.
It sound’s significantly different than what we got.
That's what I thought it was about until the end of Attack of the Clones. I was young, not even middle school I think, and I still was mad about how weird the name and setup was. Like even the movie title implies something totally different than what we actually got.
I can see it. The clone army was a brand new development in military technology which never saw use again. It represented the ability to raise a capable military from next to nothing in barely any time at all, with no need to draw from the civilian population. It enabled the republic to be able to fight that war in the first place, where otherwise the trade federation would have had a lot more leverage. Plus, the use of clones could be a controversial topic in-universe, introducing the possibility of propaganda making use of the term. So they were not only a defining characteristic of the war, but arguably one of the causes of the war, at least in the form it took on.
One can imagine an alternate history in which a small country, let's say Poland, develops nuclear bomb technology clear ahead of anybody else. If another country with whom there was tension, let's say Germany, were to initiate a war in which Poland utilized nukes extensively, well that war could feasibly come to be known as the nuclear wars.
Well, England has had more civil wars than just the English Civil Wars. We've had the Wars of The Roses, the Despenser War, the Barons' Wars and The Anarchy as well.
If one of our civil wars involved clones, then it wouldn't be surprising for it to be called "The Clone Wars", just to distinguish it from the others.
For the Republic, maybe there was already some other conflict called the Civil War, or maybe they just wanted to keep their options open when naming it.
Eh, if clones had never been used on that scale before then it kinda makes sense. Imagine if in the real world, a country fought an entire war against another country using nothing but drones. But only one side used drones, while the other used conventional meat soldiers. It's not unreasonable to call it the Drone War
In earlier drafts of the scripts, I remember he got more into the clone wars and mace windu. He also included more of Luke’s friends on tattooine and some narrator character named Whills but these also got cut. He was thinking about this movie before he got started on production for American Graffiti
It was going to be like Flash Gordon and General Han Solo was Luke Starkiller's father. But then George Lucas read Dune and decided to copy the stuff about a desert messiah with magic powers and his ancestor is the main villain.
It was also influenced by Kurosawa samurai movies he watched in college. Dunes influence is obvious, but I’m not sure when he got into that except sometime between 1965 and 1976
Yeah and I don't remember if this was in an early script or note somewhere, or if it was just a fan theory, but before Episode I came out, there was an idea that Ben Kenobi's "Obi-Wan" name was related to the Clone Wars, and that he was actually OB-1, a clone. There was an OB-2, OB-3, etc. and I reckon OC-#, OD-#, etc. and these were the soldiers who fought in some "clone wars" decades prior.
Say "Clone Wars," let writers make up their own fan fiction after Howard Roffman begs you for years for the rights to make a bunch of alternate universes to cash in on your IP, ignore those alternate universes, write your own shit, watch people who don't know it's a bunch of alternate universes you don't care about tear their hair out trying to superglue them altogether, shrug and continue not to care...
The sooner people accept Lucas's own words that none of the EU ever mattered to him, the easier to just shrug and accept that almost none of this stuff fits together.
> “Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it’s hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there’s the TV show and then there’s all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn’t have anything to do with each other. So I said, ‘OK, go ahead.’”
– George Lucas, Total Film, May 2007
George said he had most of it in his head at the beginning, but episode 4 is the only one he thought he could do with what was available and also hoped to grab attention. He never expected to make more, that's why it was just Star Wars when it released. Not episode 4, not a new hope. Just star wars.
I don't think it was a throw-away line at all. George Lucas has pretty clearly said he had the entire six-episode arch mapped out from the start. I remember him saying it in one of the interviews that preceded VHS of the special edition. I'm certain some details were changed along the way, because he's notorious for that, but he probably knew rough timelines and who the basic players were.
Edit: typo
IMO he likely had a rough outline for all 9 planned early on but then completely rewrote the first three when he actually went to make the prequels. Back when he made the original trilogy he was saying he thought 4-6 were the best ones to make into films so he did those first; so he had SOMETHING back then I think. He had to have rewritten the prequels to attempt to improve them, though he decided to constrain the rewrites based on bits and pieces already revealed in the existing movies.
I think its possible he was planning the clone wars, but definetley not the sequels. Not only does he give everyone an ending in the first trilogy, but the sequels are very different from the prequels in that they feel like a cheap, poorly planned copy of the ot rather than an attempt at being their own thing.
I remember at the time most people assumed Palpatine had been the emperor for a long time, or had even been born the emperor. In the OT it's mostly implied the Republic and the Jedi had fallen a long time ago.
I mean that kinda mmakes sense.
The galaxy is literally trillions or quadrillions of people. tens of thousands of planets.
The Jedi were what 1000? 10,000 strong? So probably never met one.
If you'd heard stories about the just and noble Jedi protecting the republic but then the republic falls in a matter of weeks, then you would probably think it was all bollocks.
Eh, an Imperial Admiral only 18 years after the end of the Clone Wars was likely already in his 20s-40s when the war ended. And there's a decent chance he was already serving in the navy and would have had Jedi on the ship and heard of their exploits during the war.
Notably this would be one of the things the administration would crack down on. Despite the fact people like Yularen, who served alongside one of the most famous Jedi in the galaxy, actually knew the Jedi existed, this fact is not actually believed by a majority of the imperial garrison. It’s treated as a surprise by pretty much anyone under 30, as evidenced when he reveals this news to the imperial admin on Lothal during Rebels.
Were there rumors or specialist detachments who dealt with the Jedi and had to actually get informed of this soft of thing? Yes, but these appear to have been confined to the Purge Troopers/Inquisitorious and other high end command staff, with the Imperial propoganda machine doing some very heavy lifting.
Also, like mentioned before, the scale of the galaxy is very large. Coruscant alone is home to like 3 trillion people, of which only 10,000 were Jedi. That’s a scale of 0.00000034% of the population of a single planet, and gets infinitely smaller from there once other planets or systems are accounted for.
Yes, the Jedi were a famous organization. Yes, some of them (Anakin in particular) were portrayed as war heroes. However, not only could the Empire do easy propaganda work to discredit them (just like we see in Darth Vader’s comic line), but the Emperor was in charge of the republic for so long that it’s not surprising he might’ve been downplaying or even censoring broadcasts of the Jedi in order to play up more of the generic clone/stormtrooper heroism, setting up the Jedi to look like a footnote against the Clone Army.
The Emperor really did work to aggressively stamp out mention of the Jedi and such. But 18 years is still an awfully short time in terms of cultural memory.
Reminds me of Halo and the Spartans, something similar happens in the books and games.
Regular marines act surprised when they see a Spartan, treating them as a mythical creature. And regular people actually didn't even know if spartans were real or not for a good while.
Even though the story focuses on Jedi/spartans, they are actually so rare (and they only briefly appear in areas of conflict) that it makes sense for the public to completely dismiss their existence.
I see your point, but I'd argue the Spartans are a bad comparison.
The II'S were elevated to the point of "immortal" with the whole MIA/KIA thing, and they did so well that the 3's and, more so, the 4's were mass produced, and public knowledge. Marines acted the way they did around chief simply because by that point in the story, at least prior to reach, II's were few and far between and expensive as fuck to make.
Everyone in the PT recognizes the Jedi on sight immediately. That includes Anakin, a slave from Tattooine who admits he's never actually seen a Jedi before. But he still says:
> I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon
Watto knows about the Jedi as well. Also on Tattooine, very close to where we meet Han in ANH. So clearly just 18 years before ANH people there are very familiar with the Jedi as a real people.
We also have the Kaminoans who recognize Obiwan as a Jedi right away, despite seemingly being cut off from the Galaxy at large.
And remember in The Phantom Menace, one of the very first lines of the entire series is from the TC-14 protocol droid:
> TC-14 : The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe.
You also have Anakin in Attack of the Clones barging into a random night club on Coruscant, waving away a crowd, telling people it's "Jedi business"
People pretty clearly know who and what the Jedi are
Coruscant is a much worse example, the temple is on coruscant. Of course people there will be aware, the argument makes more sense for further out worlds.
But your examples of tattooine are good.
Knowing who they are and believing in them are 2 different conversions. I know who Jesus is but I don’t believe in him. That’s really all we’re talking about here. It’s completely reasonable that Han had heard of Jedi and never encountered one and just assumed they were folk lore.
It should also be noted, while Watto is aware of them, only Anakin instantly recognizes them as Jedi from stories he's heard about the Jedi.
Anakin also recognizes Padme as an angel, from stories he's heard about angels.
Point is, it's kinda like if an old man with a beard walked in, and a nine year old recognized him as Santa Claus. It just so happens that Santa turned out to be real, in this instance.
Vader force chokes a high ranking Imperial officer, who's older than the entire Empire, but calls the Jedi an 'ancient religion', and thinks Vaders magic powers are a joke
It's very clear in the OT that the Jedi are meant to be a long defunct ancient order, survived only by a handful of hermits like Kenobi and Yoda
I honestly think this is why George invented a war that basically didn't have citizens fighting on either side. With 99.9% of the fighting force being clones and droids how many people actually saw a Jedi use force powers in those days? My country has an army made of citizens, I'm nearly 40, and I'm pretty sure I've never even laid eyes on a general.
He was living on Corellia, a planet purely dedicated to a whole industry and full of scum and villany. I doubt many jedi were on Corellia while Hab was living there. And even then, Corellia is still a heavy populated area where you wont see jedis even if they arrived in dozens
The average joe or child of the galaxy really didn't know about the Jedi outside the core worlds, there where 10,000 Jedi and millions of systems they where more legend than people, that in part helped Palpatine to demonize them.... thaaaat being said Han is from Corellia a pretty important planet and a hub of trade so him not believing in Jedi can only be attributed to being a street rat who didn't know better
I mean according to the OT, Obi Wan fought in the clone wars as a jedi "before the empire" which does make the empire a relatively recent development. That puts the empire at the very most 40 years old or so. And Palpatine (being visibly older than 40 years old) was most definitely NOT born emperor.
We also know just from a New Hope that the jedi (or at least, Anakin Skywalker) were still around about 20 years before a New Hope (so that Luke could be conceived). And it does put the time period where the jedi were hunted down within the past 20 years.
I don't think that's right, he never says the clone wars was before the Empire
The entire exchange is:
>LUKE:No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.
>
>BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.
>
>LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars?
>
>BEN:Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father.
>
>LUKE: I wish I'd known him.
>
>BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. Which reminds me...
I think you're thinking of this other segment, when he introduces the lightsaber
>An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire.
Certainly at the time everyone accepted it to mean that the Jedi had been prominent in ancient history, during the "old republic", perhaps thousands of years ago. And I don't think anyone thought The Emperor was younger than ObiWan. When we first see him in the theatrical release of ESB he's not even human, I remember people thinking he was thousands of years old.
With the Republic, the implication seemed to be that it had transitioned into the Empire over a long period of time, with the last elements of it finally snuffed out shortly before the movie.
The state of the Jedi during Obi-Wan and Anakin's lifetime is left vague, other than that the Jedi were guardians of peace before the rise of the Empire. Anakin's time as a Jedi was described as "following Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade", which doesn't really evoke the situation we got in the PT. It makes it sound more like Anakin was a young adult when he joined the Jedi, probably about Luke's age, and that the Jedi were already in conflict with the Empire, which Anakin was ideologically opposed to. Then the Jedi get wiped out sometime later after Vader (later revealed to be Anakin) turns against them and sides with the Empire.
When Obi-Wan, Anakin and Sheev are brought to the bridge in the opening battle, both Grievous and Anakin exchange lines indicating they've never seen each other before.
Tbf, even without that line, it's good they never met, Anakin would fucking DESTROY him.
Do what Windu did to him in the 03 cartoon but like, 10x worse.
It was never a random line, George already had an idea about what happened before the movies, but it of course changed, and later became the prequel trilogy
The original release movies had interviews with Lucas in them. He said in those interviews he had the prequel story in mind, but didn't want to start there as he didn't think people would like it as much. So he started with the end if the story with intentions to go back and tell the beginning.
As it turned out, people didn't like it as much.
I mean, now that all the kids on this sub are grown up, not so much, but way back then, the Prequels were basically the standard for disappointing follow up.
Which btw is something I still think they didn’t do enough of, both in ROTS and when they had a chance to do more in TCW. They never really showed that Obi-Wan “served” Bail until the Kenobi series really (which introduced its own continuity issues with Leia).
I love the Prequels but I really wish they’d fleshed out Bail Organa’s character way more than they actually did, he doesn’t really even become a noteworthy character until the second half of Episode III really. He, Owen, Beru, Mon Mothma, and a few others were all characters I wish the prequels had done something with, I’m glad they’re all getting more development now but it’s still weird they weren’t utilized and we instead got a lot of new characters.
Apparently in the episode Cat and Mouse (which is the first chronological episode in the show, it’s from season 2 but it’s a prequel to the christophsis storyline from the movie) where Bail asks Obi-Wan via a hologram communication for supplies while he’s stuck on the planet. So I guess in that sense he does “serve her father in the Clone Wars”. Still should have been something a lot more obvious and done in one of the movies but I guess at least the base was covered haha.
That is some masterful trolling on Obi-wan's part. Didn't refer to Anakin as a master because he never was. I know that is a small stupid detail and in no way planned by Lucas, but it makes me chuckle to think Obi-wan still took a jab at Anakin's appointment to the Jedi council after all those years.
I might get downvoted hard for asking this question, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but is it because Obi Wan was technically a Jedi Master then, not a Jedi Knight?
Yeah and in some contexts even a padawan qualifies as a Jedi Knight (see: Opening crawl of Episode I). The whole rank thing didn’t really get all that fleshed out, the only times it was really relevant were Obi-Wan getting promoted at the end of Episode I and Anakin not being made a master in Episode III.
People also refer to padawans and Jedi Knights as “master ____” on an informal basis repeatedly.
As far as I can tell, knight is both a job *and* a rank, so you can be a Jedi Knight who is a master and one who is a knight if that makes sense.
This is exclusively talking about canon stuff of course, not legends where they changed how the ranks work a ton
idk how canon SWTOR is, but Jedi Knight seems to just be one path to being a Jedi Master. You could potentially get there just by being very strong with the force even if you were terrible with the deathsticks.
Especially since, until the Clone Wars, Jedi weren't really a military force. So you'd expect a lot less Jedi to be skilled at combat, and have titles to much better reflect their chosen path.
That aspect of SWTOR should definitely have been brought into canon, and should have been used more pre-Disney. Silly that the only official structure for full Jedi is Initiate -> Padawan -> Knight -> Master. Each branch of the Order should outright have it's own rank between Padawan and Master.
All of the politics related to the Old Republic are defined by the prequel trilogy. Just because it happened before the prequels, doesn't mean they were planned before the prequels. Games like KotOR wouldn't be made without the prequels existing to give them a proper setting.
There was more than that though. Leia also tells Luke he’s “short for a stormtrooper” which I always thought was meant to make fun of him because most of the troopers SHE knows are clones. Only the newer ones aren’t.
No, you misread or misinterpreted what I said. The clone troopers from the clone wars would be what 99% of the galaxy knows as stormtroopers/clonetroopers. It was only right before the OT that clone troopers were replaced with storm troopers. Leia would’ve known many clone troopers. The storm troopers in the original trilogy were never, and still aren’t, clones.
Well when you only look at or read about a particular history and you don't have the ability to ask any of the individuals that live in that world questions about the history, you have to rely on every little nugget of information you get from every angle. That increases the value of each of those nuggets. Sometimes one of those nuggets can be so valuable it changes everything. Imagine being able to be in the world and ask a regular dude his opinions on the force.
Before the prequel I thought the clone wars were where people had clones of themselves as slaves to handle all there labor and finances and when the uprising came the the army whiped out all the clones
I heard a fun fan theory about that. Why would Obi-Wan Kenobi change his name to be Ben? Clearly he wasn't trying to change his identity because he left his last name as Kenobi. The explanation? He never had a name. He was a clone of the original Kenobi who was numbered O B 1.
When I was a kid, I was sure the Clone Wars were about cloned Jedi Knights and the brief seeming confusion and concern in Kenobi's face when they start mentioning Obi-Wan was because there was a difference between Ben Kenobi and the cloned Jedi Knight 0B-1 Kenobi.
I still think that might have been better.
Same! My assumption was that the jedi had been cloned and fought each other. There are dozens of us!
And yeah, 100% would have been a better saga than the prequels.
In Star Wars, anything has backstory behind it
Even the 2 random criminals in the Cantina have the story of being the most evil and brutal criminals in all of Star Wars
The power of worldbuilding, is immeasureable
I remember in a bts featurette for Genndy's Clone Wars shorts one of the crew is like "Yeah we all always wondered what the clone wars was ever since A New Hope" which even at the age of 13 I called bullshit
I hate to be that guy but back in the day storytellers we’re a little more keen to leave dangling plot threads like this without feeling the need to wrap them up in the same story. It let the viewer use their imagination a little
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Uh, ok, since you asked....this will be kinda long.
Please note this was originally conceived a LONG time ago, when there was basically no Star Wars content other than the original trilogy, so it is very different from what we actually got. I eventually added some ideas from later content like some of the comics before the prequels were announced. This was conceived as something for fans of the OT who had grown up.
The Clone wars were an invasion that was either extragalactic or from the unknown regions. The Clone Lords were an unknown and as yet unseen race of conquerors whose armies were composed of various clones and genetic monstrosities. They invaded without warning, conquering and murdering entire biospheres to harvest organic mass for their cloning bays, as well as genetic data to be used in experiments and improving their troops. They were in some ways akin to a horror movie villain, but on a galactic scale. The fact that they could send in near undetectable clones as assassins or infiltrators added to the tension.
My Jedi were very little like the Jedi in the prequels. They had very minimal organization and functioned as wandering warrior sages. In their travels they would sometimes come across other force sensitive individuals and train them. Rare meetings were called through the force by powerful masters.
One of their guiding principles was something Yoda said in the OT: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." The Jedi were pacifists who only entered combat at the most extreme necessity and even then did not kill or if possible even harm their enemies (this is important for Anakin's primary conflict). If you were saved by a Jedi, you probably never even knew it, they simply used the Force to direct situation. If a Jedi had to draw his lightsaber for conflict, they would consider it a grave failure.
The lightsabers were generally used for defense (the iconic blaster deflection) and for dueling other Jedi. Duels between Jedi were mostly done as an exercise in abandoning oneself to the force, graceful battles where the objective was never to hurt the opponent. In fact, the greatest duelists were the ones who could make the most powerful attacks and still avoid actually harming their opponent. In the very rare case of a duel to resolve a conflict, injuring your opponent was considered a loss, and when none were injured the winner was generally self evident as the one who kept the other on the defensive.
The story opens with Obi-Wan on a refugee transport fleeing the clone armies. He's on the bridge, being ignored because he wants to be. The transport is attacked by Clone army ships, and a small number of escort fighters attempt to fend them off. Obi-Wan believes that although he can if necessary survive, the people are doomed. He then feels a something powerful moving through the force and looks out the bridge window to see one of the escort ships performing insane maneuvers and basically soloing the attacking clone squadron. This of course is Anakin, around Luke's age in ANH, who Obi-Wan meets here. He begins training Anakin who is incredibly powerful in the force and initiates him into the Jedi Order.
This leads into the primary conflict for Anakin and the one that eventually turns him to the Dark Side. The Jedi refuse to go on the offensive, believing that aggressive action will lead them to the Dark Side. However, this is not a war that can be won through only defensive actions, and Anakin fights against their traditions and attempts to bring them into the war. He uses the force aggressively and turns his lightsaber on his enemies. He encounters a force sensitive warlord who attempts to make an ally of him (this was my eventual Palpatine). I'm not going to get to into that character here just to save time.
Eventually, in an attempt to force the Jedi into the war (and probably late in my prequel trilogy), Anakin challenges the Jedi Order's greatest duelist, claiming the force can show them their true path. However, since duels like this are so rare Obi-Wan has only mentioned this in passing, he is not aware of the full nature of the duel until after his challenge is accepted when Obi-Wan explains how the duels work. Anakin is deflated but accepts that he has to try it their way.
During the duel Anakin shows incredible skill with the force, nearly matching the dueling master. However, it is clear to everyone and to Anakin himself that he is losing the duel. In a fit of anger, Anakin smashes through the Master's defenses and kills him. This of course immediately and irrevocable ruins any chance he has to bring them into the conflict, and they all abandon him except Obi-Wan. This leads to a path of more and more brutal actions by Anakin as he attempts to win the Clone War, culminating in his victory but also his fall to the Dark Side. One thing I had in common with the Prequels was that his injuries come in a battle with Obi-Wan.
After the war he hunts down the Jedi, who he blames for everything as they did not help him in the war.
Obviously there is a lot more but that's about all I feel up to writing for now. One issue I had not decided for sure how I wanted to deal with was Luke and Leia's mother. I had a lot of ideas, from their mother being a clone, to they themselves being mostly clones of Anakin, to various other possibilities.
So that's summary.
IIRC, the line about the Clone Wars was dubbed in for the Special Edition (an updated re-release of ep. IV that was shown in theaters in the late 90s to hype up the prequels). The original line was " You fought with my father in the rebellion against the Empire?"
Edit: apparently this question was asked by Luke of C3P0, not Obi-Wan. I misremembered, my bad.
I can't find any source for this. Also there were already discussions about it in the expanded universe before the Prequels hype began. Heir to the Empire (Written in 1991) discussed it somewhat as a war against clones.
This is both
1) objectively untrue, George had always planned that something like the CW had happened, it just wasn’t entirely fleshed out. Also there does exist lore in SW pre B.B.Y. that isn’t the clone wars. Quite a bit of it actually.
And
2) possibly the most unoriginal meme post I’ve ever seen on PrequelMemes, which is impressive, since it’s PrequelMemes.
Seriously, there are probably more posts of specifically this joke with specifically this image than some decent sized subreddits have posts total.
Fair enough, I probably am. Most likely a sign that I’ve been online too much recently. I am pretty sure that this is a meme that has been made at least a few times, however.
This conversation has certainly been made before—regarding how initially minor Luke's comment about the War had been, only for it to become foundational. I've seen it two or three times within the last few months. Although this specific image format isn't used incredibly often, I think.
I read a long time ago that George Lucas imagined the entire 6 episodes as one movie originally that he had to cut down into their individual parts due to length and budget and chose episode 4 ultimately because it had the best narrative hook that would leave people wanting more.
I rewatched ANH the other night and it's actually absurd how much the prequels pulls its inspiration of maybe 15 minutes of the movie. You have the obvious stuff like all the talk in Obi-wans house, but the interesting parts are when you first see mos Eisley: various animals/aliens, the pod racer-looking "trash", and what appears to be a (very tiny version) of the Droid cruisers
With George Lucas, it’s either a random line or he planned it out earlier on. Always a coin toss.
Or, better yet, he made it up as he went along and later claimed it was planned out early on.
The ultimate DM move.
When I learned my DM does this all the time, it was like learning Santa isn’t real
I read that as Satan... I'm sleep deprived
Sleep youngling. Rest, you must.
r/usernamedoesntcheckout
r/SubsIFellFor
r/youdoofus
He's real, rest assured
I mean neither of real to be fair.
# are you sure about that
If you're half-decent at it, "making it up as you go" is a great DM style though. Allows for a lot of freedom for your players, and gives a lot more roleplay opportunity than a scripted campaign. Example: My party decided to stop at a random fishing village along the way to their next quest destination. This turned into them having a party, 1 member picking up fishing as a skill, and another deciding to go into jewelry making from seashells. They also became well-acquainted with the villagers which I now plan to use for something important at some point in the future.
As a DM, you gotta be able to wing it. You have have the most well thought out, beautiful crafted plot line all ready for your party, then they come along and go “ooo, shiny thing”.
The real Santa was the Monty Python level bullshit you pulled along the way
My party knew I improvised a lot in my campaign. They didn’t know it was almost the whole thing.
But isn't that a sign of a great dm being able to Adapt and come up with stuff on the go to breath some live into a campaign?
It’s always this. It always has been this.
Everyone: George Lucas is a genius George Lucas: the fishman is from calamari
>Jar-Jar is the key to all of this
The angry one will be Angron
Yeah Sith Lords we’re originally going to be just space ninjas who hate guns but love space magic and Vader wasn’t even Luke’s father, but none of it felt like it made sense so he had some lines ad libbed and now we have what we have.
I read this like Mike Tyson was reciting it to me.
Everyone has a manuscript till they get punched in the mouth.
[удалено]
In a roundabout way, the line about the clone wars created the prequels, which show the rise of Palpatine and the Rule of Two, which was created by Bane
The best plan--- Make it up as you go along, listen to the audience fan theories, take the best parts of it, and include those into your story as if it was your idea all along.
And if your fans guess your plot, dont throw it out just to be clever.
ah yes, the FNAF method of writing anything.
Yeah, anyone who thinks Scott Cawthon actually planned out the story is lying to themselves
It really is the same situation. "Small media blows up, creator scrambles to make enough lore for sequals"
Couldn't this line be seen as world building / introduction? Something far more important than for it to be a throwaway line
I just don't see, logically, why they'd ever be called The Clone Wars in universe. If both sides used clones I could understand it or if there were some kind of clone uprising sure. Instead it was essentially a civil war/war of secession. To liken it to History no one calls the English Civil War the Parliamentarian Wars.
The whole speech made it seem like a hell of a lot longer too
From his point of view it was
If I heard “The Clone Wars” for the first time today, and knew nothing about the prequel trilogy, I would assume it was some sort of revolt of an underclass of clones a la cylons or replicants. And there would be a lot of drama and espionage about people who didn’t know they were clones, cloning political leaders, the rights of clones to exist independent of their originals. The ethics of an army of clones bred to die would actually be interrogated even a little bit. It sound’s significantly different than what we got.
You don’t have to carry a sword to be powerful. Some leaders’ strength is inspiring others.
That's what I thought it was about until the end of Attack of the Clones. I was young, not even middle school I think, and I still was mad about how weird the name and setup was. Like even the movie title implies something totally different than what we actually got.
I can see it. The clone army was a brand new development in military technology which never saw use again. It represented the ability to raise a capable military from next to nothing in barely any time at all, with no need to draw from the civilian population. It enabled the republic to be able to fight that war in the first place, where otherwise the trade federation would have had a lot more leverage. Plus, the use of clones could be a controversial topic in-universe, introducing the possibility of propaganda making use of the term. So they were not only a defining characteristic of the war, but arguably one of the causes of the war, at least in the form it took on. One can imagine an alternate history in which a small country, let's say Poland, develops nuclear bomb technology clear ahead of anybody else. If another country with whom there was tension, let's say Germany, were to initiate a war in which Poland utilized nukes extensively, well that war could feasibly come to be known as the nuclear wars.
Well, England has had more civil wars than just the English Civil Wars. We've had the Wars of The Roses, the Despenser War, the Barons' Wars and The Anarchy as well. If one of our civil wars involved clones, then it wouldn't be surprising for it to be called "The Clone Wars", just to distinguish it from the others. For the Republic, maybe there was already some other conflict called the Civil War, or maybe they just wanted to keep their options open when naming it.
Eh, if clones had never been used on that scale before then it kinda makes sense. Imagine if in the real world, a country fought an entire war against another country using nothing but drones. But only one side used drones, while the other used conventional meat soldiers. It's not unreasonable to call it the Drone War
im waiting for the day they call something the star wars in universe
In earlier drafts of the scripts, I remember he got more into the clone wars and mace windu. He also included more of Luke’s friends on tattooine and some narrator character named Whills but these also got cut. He was thinking about this movie before he got started on production for American Graffiti
It was going to be like Flash Gordon and General Han Solo was Luke Starkiller's father. But then George Lucas read Dune and decided to copy the stuff about a desert messiah with magic powers and his ancestor is the main villain.
It was also influenced by Kurosawa samurai movies he watched in college. Dunes influence is obvious, but I’m not sure when he got into that except sometime between 1965 and 1976
Yeah and I don't remember if this was in an early script or note somewhere, or if it was just a fan theory, but before Episode I came out, there was an idea that Ben Kenobi's "Obi-Wan" name was related to the Clone Wars, and that he was actually OB-1, a clone. There was an OB-2, OB-3, etc. and I reckon OC-#, OD-#, etc. and these were the soldiers who fought in some "clone wars" decades prior.
That’s some cool trivia I didn’t know
That would have an interesting thing.
The Whills are a race of force sensitive religious people who were originally narrating the plot. He wanted to put them in the sequels too.
The extended universe had books about how people were prejudiced against clones Bc at that time the clone wars were a clone invasion of the galaxy
Say "Clone Wars," let writers make up their own fan fiction after Howard Roffman begs you for years for the rights to make a bunch of alternate universes to cash in on your IP, ignore those alternate universes, write your own shit, watch people who don't know it's a bunch of alternate universes you don't care about tear their hair out trying to superglue them altogether, shrug and continue not to care... The sooner people accept Lucas's own words that none of the EU ever mattered to him, the easier to just shrug and accept that almost none of this stuff fits together. > “Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it’s hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there’s the TV show and then there’s all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn’t have anything to do with each other. So I said, ‘OK, go ahead.’” – George Lucas, Total Film, May 2007
Call it
Or his wife planned it lol
George said he had most of it in his head at the beginning, but episode 4 is the only one he thought he could do with what was available and also hoped to grab attention. He never expected to make more, that's why it was just Star Wars when it released. Not episode 4, not a new hope. Just star wars.
"i sTaRted witH ep IV bEcAuSe pRodUctiOn" Buulllllshit bro
I don't think it was a throw-away line at all. George Lucas has pretty clearly said he had the entire six-episode arch mapped out from the start. I remember him saying it in one of the interviews that preceded VHS of the special edition. I'm certain some details were changed along the way, because he's notorious for that, but he probably knew rough timelines and who the basic players were. Edit: typo
IMO he likely had a rough outline for all 9 planned early on but then completely rewrote the first three when he actually went to make the prequels. Back when he made the original trilogy he was saying he thought 4-6 were the best ones to make into films so he did those first; so he had SOMETHING back then I think. He had to have rewritten the prequels to attempt to improve them, though he decided to constrain the rewrites based on bits and pieces already revealed in the existing movies.
I think its possible he was planning the clone wars, but definetley not the sequels. Not only does he give everyone an ending in the first trilogy, but the sequels are very different from the prequels in that they feel like a cheap, poorly planned copy of the ot rather than an attempt at being their own thing.
Lucas submitted a script to Disney for Episode 7 but it was rejected. Sequels have nothing to do with his original vision.
I mean tbf I feel like Palpatine’s rise to power and subsequent purge of the Jedi is never not going to involve a large war when telling that story
I remember at the time most people assumed Palpatine had been the emperor for a long time, or had even been born the emperor. In the OT it's mostly implied the Republic and the Jedi had fallen a long time ago.
Han didn't believe in Jedi despite having been alive during the Clone Wars.
I mean that kinda mmakes sense. The galaxy is literally trillions or quadrillions of people. tens of thousands of planets. The Jedi were what 1000? 10,000 strong? So probably never met one. If you'd heard stories about the just and noble Jedi protecting the republic but then the republic falls in a matter of weeks, then you would probably think it was all bollocks.
Eh, an Imperial Admiral only 18 years after the end of the Clone Wars was likely already in his 20s-40s when the war ended. And there's a decent chance he was already serving in the navy and would have had Jedi on the ship and heard of their exploits during the war.
Notably this would be one of the things the administration would crack down on. Despite the fact people like Yularen, who served alongside one of the most famous Jedi in the galaxy, actually knew the Jedi existed, this fact is not actually believed by a majority of the imperial garrison. It’s treated as a surprise by pretty much anyone under 30, as evidenced when he reveals this news to the imperial admin on Lothal during Rebels. Were there rumors or specialist detachments who dealt with the Jedi and had to actually get informed of this soft of thing? Yes, but these appear to have been confined to the Purge Troopers/Inquisitorious and other high end command staff, with the Imperial propoganda machine doing some very heavy lifting. Also, like mentioned before, the scale of the galaxy is very large. Coruscant alone is home to like 3 trillion people, of which only 10,000 were Jedi. That’s a scale of 0.00000034% of the population of a single planet, and gets infinitely smaller from there once other planets or systems are accounted for. Yes, the Jedi were a famous organization. Yes, some of them (Anakin in particular) were portrayed as war heroes. However, not only could the Empire do easy propaganda work to discredit them (just like we see in Darth Vader’s comic line), but the Emperor was in charge of the republic for so long that it’s not surprising he might’ve been downplaying or even censoring broadcasts of the Jedi in order to play up more of the generic clone/stormtrooper heroism, setting up the Jedi to look like a footnote against the Clone Army.
The Emperor really did work to aggressively stamp out mention of the Jedi and such. But 18 years is still an awfully short time in terms of cultural memory.
Reminds me of Halo and the Spartans, something similar happens in the books and games. Regular marines act surprised when they see a Spartan, treating them as a mythical creature. And regular people actually didn't even know if spartans were real or not for a good while. Even though the story focuses on Jedi/spartans, they are actually so rare (and they only briefly appear in areas of conflict) that it makes sense for the public to completely dismiss their existence.
I see your point, but I'd argue the Spartans are a bad comparison. The II'S were elevated to the point of "immortal" with the whole MIA/KIA thing, and they did so well that the 3's and, more so, the 4's were mass produced, and public knowledge. Marines acted the way they did around chief simply because by that point in the story, at least prior to reach, II's were few and far between and expensive as fuck to make.
This is similar to the spehs marines in wh40k
Everyone in the PT recognizes the Jedi on sight immediately. That includes Anakin, a slave from Tattooine who admits he's never actually seen a Jedi before. But he still says: > I saw your laser sword. Only Jedi carry that kind of weapon Watto knows about the Jedi as well. Also on Tattooine, very close to where we meet Han in ANH. So clearly just 18 years before ANH people there are very familiar with the Jedi as a real people. We also have the Kaminoans who recognize Obiwan as a Jedi right away, despite seemingly being cut off from the Galaxy at large. And remember in The Phantom Menace, one of the very first lines of the entire series is from the TC-14 protocol droid: > TC-14 : The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe. You also have Anakin in Attack of the Clones barging into a random night club on Coruscant, waving away a crowd, telling people it's "Jedi business" People pretty clearly know who and what the Jedi are
Coruscant is a much worse example, the temple is on coruscant. Of course people there will be aware, the argument makes more sense for further out worlds. But your examples of tattooine are good.
Knowing who they are and believing in them are 2 different conversions. I know who Jesus is but I don’t believe in him. That’s really all we’re talking about here. It’s completely reasonable that Han had heard of Jedi and never encountered one and just assumed they were folk lore.
It should also be noted, while Watto is aware of them, only Anakin instantly recognizes them as Jedi from stories he's heard about the Jedi. Anakin also recognizes Padme as an angel, from stories he's heard about angels. Point is, it's kinda like if an old man with a beard walked in, and a nine year old recognized him as Santa Claus. It just so happens that Santa turned out to be real, in this instance.
Vader force chokes a high ranking Imperial officer, who's older than the entire Empire, but calls the Jedi an 'ancient religion', and thinks Vaders magic powers are a joke It's very clear in the OT that the Jedi are meant to be a long defunct ancient order, survived only by a handful of hermits like Kenobi and Yoda
Well, that happens.
or even Kenobi and Yoda were trained long after the fall.
Ancient didn't necessarily mean no longer exists. For example, Christianity is an ancient religion.
I call fax machines an ancient religion, and they were invented after my birth. Also there is one at my last workplace.
I honestly think this is why George invented a war that basically didn't have citizens fighting on either side. With 99.9% of the fighting force being clones and droids how many people actually saw a Jedi use force powers in those days? My country has an army made of citizens, I'm nearly 40, and I'm pretty sure I've never even laid eyes on a general.
He was living on Corellia, a planet purely dedicated to a whole industry and full of scum and villany. I doubt many jedi were on Corellia while Hab was living there. And even then, Corellia is still a heavy populated area where you wont see jedis even if they arrived in dozens
The average joe or child of the galaxy really didn't know about the Jedi outside the core worlds, there where 10,000 Jedi and millions of systems they where more legend than people, that in part helped Palpatine to demonize them.... thaaaat being said Han is from Corellia a pretty important planet and a hub of trade so him not believing in Jedi can only be attributed to being a street rat who didn't know better
I mean according to the OT, Obi Wan fought in the clone wars as a jedi "before the empire" which does make the empire a relatively recent development. That puts the empire at the very most 40 years old or so. And Palpatine (being visibly older than 40 years old) was most definitely NOT born emperor. We also know just from a New Hope that the jedi (or at least, Anakin Skywalker) were still around about 20 years before a New Hope (so that Luke could be conceived). And it does put the time period where the jedi were hunted down within the past 20 years.
I don't think that's right, he never says the clone wars was before the Empire The entire exchange is: >LUKE:No, my father didn't fight in the wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter. > >BEN: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved. > >LUKE: You fought in the Clone Wars? > >BEN:Yes, I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father. > >LUKE: I wish I'd known him. > >BEN: He was the best star-pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend. Which reminds me... I think you're thinking of this other segment, when he introduces the lightsaber >An elegant weapon for a more civilized time. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times, before the Empire. Certainly at the time everyone accepted it to mean that the Jedi had been prominent in ancient history, during the "old republic", perhaps thousands of years ago. And I don't think anyone thought The Emperor was younger than ObiWan. When we first see him in the theatrical release of ESB he's not even human, I remember people thinking he was thousands of years old.
With the Republic, the implication seemed to be that it had transitioned into the Empire over a long period of time, with the last elements of it finally snuffed out shortly before the movie. The state of the Jedi during Obi-Wan and Anakin's lifetime is left vague, other than that the Jedi were guardians of peace before the rise of the Empire. Anakin's time as a Jedi was described as "following Obi-Wan on some damn fool idealistic crusade", which doesn't really evoke the situation we got in the PT. It makes it sound more like Anakin was a young adult when he joined the Jedi, probably about Luke's age, and that the Jedi were already in conflict with the Empire, which Anakin was ideologically opposed to. Then the Jedi get wiped out sometime later after Vader (later revealed to be Anakin) turns against them and sides with the Empire.
I always thought he came to power through his love for democracy.
Meanwhile Dave Filoni and his team trying to not have Anakin and Grievous meet in person because of a single line in ROTS
Which line?
“Anakin Skywalker. I was expecting someone of your reputation to be a little older”
"General Grievous. You're shorter than I expected"
[“Crush them!”](https://youtu.be/KS7_M9oznrQ?si=HQL88eBYpoNKXc77)
“Jedi Scum!”
"General Grievous, you're shorter than I expected."
Well, that happens.
"General Grievous, you're shorter than I expected."
When Obi-Wan, Anakin and Sheev are brought to the bridge in the opening battle, both Grievous and Anakin exchange lines indicating they've never seen each other before.
I think it was the "your shorter than I expected"
wow, i never considered that's why they never met before lol
Tbf, even without that line, it's good they never met, Anakin would fucking DESTROY him. Do what Windu did to him in the 03 cartoon but like, 10x worse.
So were the Headless Monks in Doctor Who, until they weren't.
It was never a random line, George already had an idea about what happened before the movies, but it of course changed, and later became the prequel trilogy
Probably similar to how I DM for D&D. I have general ideas for the plot, and what happened in the past, but I work out the details as I go along.
why are there red lines across some of the blocks? there weren't in [the original xkcd](https://xkcd.com/2347/)
There's an [XKCD](https://xkcd.com/1683/) about that
Yeah I keep wondering that when I see this one posted.
Those are plot lines.
Maybe added by someone to avoid repost detection, or increase engagement when people comment asking why the lines are there
So random.
The original release movies had interviews with Lucas in them. He said in those interviews he had the prequel story in mind, but didn't want to start there as he didn't think people would like it as much. So he started with the end if the story with intentions to go back and tell the beginning.
As it turned out, people didn't like it as much. I mean, now that all the kids on this sub are grown up, not so much, but way back then, the Prequels were basically the standard for disappointing follow up.
what was the specific line? about Order 66?
“You fought in the clone wars?” “Yes, I was a Jedi knight. The same as your father” Luke to Obiwan, Episode 4
Also “years ago you served my father in the clone wars”
Which btw is something I still think they didn’t do enough of, both in ROTS and when they had a chance to do more in TCW. They never really showed that Obi-Wan “served” Bail until the Kenobi series really (which introduced its own continuity issues with Leia). I love the Prequels but I really wish they’d fleshed out Bail Organa’s character way more than they actually did, he doesn’t really even become a noteworthy character until the second half of Episode III really. He, Owen, Beru, Mon Mothma, and a few others were all characters I wish the prequels had done something with, I’m glad they’re all getting more development now but it’s still weird they weren’t utilized and we instead got a lot of new characters.
Huh, that's a good point. Did Obi-wan ever interact with Bail in the clone wars TV show at all?
Apparently in the episode Cat and Mouse (which is the first chronological episode in the show, it’s from season 2 but it’s a prequel to the christophsis storyline from the movie) where Bail asks Obi-Wan via a hologram communication for supplies while he’s stuck on the planet. So I guess in that sense he does “serve her father in the Clone Wars”. Still should have been something a lot more obvious and done in one of the movies but I guess at least the base was covered haha.
Yeah that's hardly what I called serving. Now I wish they interacted more.
That’s a bingo
That is some masterful trolling on Obi-wan's part. Didn't refer to Anakin as a master because he never was. I know that is a small stupid detail and in no way planned by Lucas, but it makes me chuckle to think Obi-wan still took a jab at Anakin's appointment to the Jedi council after all those years.
She didn't even recognise me, Jar Jar. I thought about her every day since we parted… and she's forgotten me completely.
Cuz I’m a creep I’m a weirdo What the hell
What the hell am I doing here? I wish I was special... I hate sand.
I might get downvoted hard for asking this question, and I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but is it because Obi Wan was technically a Jedi Master then, not a Jedi Knight?
I think just because you become a Jedi master, it doesn't mean that you are no longer a knight. You are a knight and a master
Master of Knighthood
Yeah and in some contexts even a padawan qualifies as a Jedi Knight (see: Opening crawl of Episode I). The whole rank thing didn’t really get all that fleshed out, the only times it was really relevant were Obi-Wan getting promoted at the end of Episode I and Anakin not being made a master in Episode III. People also refer to padawans and Jedi Knights as “master ____” on an informal basis repeatedly.
I thought that knight was a job, and master/padawan were ranks.
As far as I can tell, knight is both a job *and* a rank, so you can be a Jedi Knight who is a master and one who is a knight if that makes sense. This is exclusively talking about canon stuff of course, not legends where they changed how the ranks work a ton
Qui-gon
Right I think it’s a reasonable sort of thing for the old man to say, wanting to remain as ambiguous as possible without deceiving
idk how canon SWTOR is, but Jedi Knight seems to just be one path to being a Jedi Master. You could potentially get there just by being very strong with the force even if you were terrible with the deathsticks.
Especially since, until the Clone Wars, Jedi weren't really a military force. So you'd expect a lot less Jedi to be skilled at combat, and have titles to much better reflect their chosen path. That aspect of SWTOR should definitely have been brought into canon, and should have been used more pre-Disney. Silly that the only official structure for full Jedi is Initiate -> Padawan -> Knight -> Master. Each branch of the Order should outright have it's own rank between Padawan and Master.
No. No, it's okay. I understand. I'm the Padawan, you're the Master.
No. No, it's okay. I understand. I'm the Padawan, you're the Master.
I think he was just trying to make Anakin sound better because he was on that council but was not granted the rank of master.
Episode 4... The original Star Wars. A New Hope. Goddamn kids. GTFOH.
Oh you’re so cool, these gosh dang kids ! Shut up nerd
> Years ago you served my father in the clone wars
No, the random mention of the clone wars in Ep 1 I assume
Episode 4
You mean STAR WARS aka A NEW HOPE aka EPISODE 4
Interesting. He never mentioned you.
Guessing the other two blocks are Dark Forces and the old Droids cartoon
“You really fought in the Dragon Wars?”
That would've been better
Is BBY big beautiful yoda?
Before Battle of Yavin, but yours is perhaps better
How about everything that came out of the throwaway line in the RotJ novelization about Boba Fett's "Mandalorian armor"?
How is the Old republic (3000 bby) or even Darth Bane (1000 bby) related to the Clone Wars?
Bane started the rule of two. I would call that a decent connection to the future
It's crazy to think that Darth Sidious finished Sith Lord Bane's Grand Plan a thousand years later.
Even crazier that Bane predicted it would take about a thousand years
It’s almost as if he was written as a character and the writer knew that his grand plan would be finished a thousand years later.
All of the politics related to the Old Republic are defined by the prequel trilogy. Just because it happened before the prequels, doesn't mean they were planned before the prequels. Games like KotOR wouldn't be made without the prequels existing to give them a proper setting.
There was more than that though. Leia also tells Luke he’s “short for a stormtrooper” which I always thought was meant to make fun of him because most of the troopers SHE knows are clones. Only the newer ones aren’t.
As clever as that would have been, i'm pretty sure it was nothing more than a witty comment..
The stormtroopers were never clones man. In the movie Luke wants to go to a military academy. It was just making fun of a dude for being short.
No. That's rewriting history. In the originals, there was no clones. That's the funny part. They deny cannon to make them clones
No, you misread or misinterpreted what I said. The clone troopers from the clone wars would be what 99% of the galaxy knows as stormtroopers/clonetroopers. It was only right before the OT that clone troopers were replaced with storm troopers. Leia would’ve known many clone troopers. The storm troopers in the original trilogy were never, and still aren’t, clones.
It's called world building, knowing that things have happened in the past is needed to make a fanasy world convincing.
*removes cloak* I'm not here to discuss my past.
*what are you, my therapist?*
Honestly damn fine worldbuilding. Its just a throwaway line yes, but with an ocean of potential
Well when you only look at or read about a particular history and you don't have the ability to ask any of the individuals that live in that world questions about the history, you have to rely on every little nugget of information you get from every angle. That increases the value of each of those nuggets. Sometimes one of those nuggets can be so valuable it changes everything. Imagine being able to be in the world and ask a regular dude his opinions on the force.
Before the prequel I thought the clone wars were where people had clones of themselves as slaves to handle all there labor and finances and when the uprising came the the army whiped out all the clones
I heard a fun fan theory about that. Why would Obi-Wan Kenobi change his name to be Ben? Clearly he wasn't trying to change his identity because he left his last name as Kenobi. The explanation? He never had a name. He was a clone of the original Kenobi who was numbered O B 1.
O B… old ben…
When I was a kid, I was sure the Clone Wars were about cloned Jedi Knights and the brief seeming confusion and concern in Kenobi's face when they start mentioning Obi-Wan was because there was a difference between Ben Kenobi and the cloned Jedi Knight 0B-1 Kenobi. I still think that might have been better.
Interesting. He never mentioned you.
Same! My assumption was that the jedi had been cloned and fought each other. There are dozens of us! And yeah, 100% would have been a better saga than the prequels.
In Star Wars, anything has backstory behind it Even the 2 random criminals in the Cantina have the story of being the most evil and brutal criminals in all of Star Wars The power of worldbuilding, is immeasureable
That line was not clumsy or random. It was an elegant line from a more civilized age.
[original XKCD](https://xkcd.com/2347/)
I remember in a bts featurette for Genndy's Clone Wars shorts one of the crew is like "Yeah we all always wondered what the clone wars was ever since A New Hope" which even at the age of 13 I called bullshit
Before the prequels I always assumed it was Jedi clones, not stormtroopers. I’m also very old.
I remember pre Empire Strikes Back a super fan telling me he thought Obi Won might actually be a clone O.B.1
I hate to be that guy but back in the day storytellers we’re a little more keen to leave dangling plot threads like this without feeling the need to wrap them up in the same story. It let the viewer use their imagination a little
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Well, that happens.
Did anyone else see the Falcon's landing gear at first?
My headcanon version of the clone wars from before the prequels was better anyway.
tell us about it, don't leave us hanging
Uh, ok, since you asked....this will be kinda long. Please note this was originally conceived a LONG time ago, when there was basically no Star Wars content other than the original trilogy, so it is very different from what we actually got. I eventually added some ideas from later content like some of the comics before the prequels were announced. This was conceived as something for fans of the OT who had grown up. The Clone wars were an invasion that was either extragalactic or from the unknown regions. The Clone Lords were an unknown and as yet unseen race of conquerors whose armies were composed of various clones and genetic monstrosities. They invaded without warning, conquering and murdering entire biospheres to harvest organic mass for their cloning bays, as well as genetic data to be used in experiments and improving their troops. They were in some ways akin to a horror movie villain, but on a galactic scale. The fact that they could send in near undetectable clones as assassins or infiltrators added to the tension. My Jedi were very little like the Jedi in the prequels. They had very minimal organization and functioned as wandering warrior sages. In their travels they would sometimes come across other force sensitive individuals and train them. Rare meetings were called through the force by powerful masters. One of their guiding principles was something Yoda said in the OT: "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." The Jedi were pacifists who only entered combat at the most extreme necessity and even then did not kill or if possible even harm their enemies (this is important for Anakin's primary conflict). If you were saved by a Jedi, you probably never even knew it, they simply used the Force to direct situation. If a Jedi had to draw his lightsaber for conflict, they would consider it a grave failure. The lightsabers were generally used for defense (the iconic blaster deflection) and for dueling other Jedi. Duels between Jedi were mostly done as an exercise in abandoning oneself to the force, graceful battles where the objective was never to hurt the opponent. In fact, the greatest duelists were the ones who could make the most powerful attacks and still avoid actually harming their opponent. In the very rare case of a duel to resolve a conflict, injuring your opponent was considered a loss, and when none were injured the winner was generally self evident as the one who kept the other on the defensive. The story opens with Obi-Wan on a refugee transport fleeing the clone armies. He's on the bridge, being ignored because he wants to be. The transport is attacked by Clone army ships, and a small number of escort fighters attempt to fend them off. Obi-Wan believes that although he can if necessary survive, the people are doomed. He then feels a something powerful moving through the force and looks out the bridge window to see one of the escort ships performing insane maneuvers and basically soloing the attacking clone squadron. This of course is Anakin, around Luke's age in ANH, who Obi-Wan meets here. He begins training Anakin who is incredibly powerful in the force and initiates him into the Jedi Order. This leads into the primary conflict for Anakin and the one that eventually turns him to the Dark Side. The Jedi refuse to go on the offensive, believing that aggressive action will lead them to the Dark Side. However, this is not a war that can be won through only defensive actions, and Anakin fights against their traditions and attempts to bring them into the war. He uses the force aggressively and turns his lightsaber on his enemies. He encounters a force sensitive warlord who attempts to make an ally of him (this was my eventual Palpatine). I'm not going to get to into that character here just to save time. Eventually, in an attempt to force the Jedi into the war (and probably late in my prequel trilogy), Anakin challenges the Jedi Order's greatest duelist, claiming the force can show them their true path. However, since duels like this are so rare Obi-Wan has only mentioned this in passing, he is not aware of the full nature of the duel until after his challenge is accepted when Obi-Wan explains how the duels work. Anakin is deflated but accepts that he has to try it their way. During the duel Anakin shows incredible skill with the force, nearly matching the dueling master. However, it is clear to everyone and to Anakin himself that he is losing the duel. In a fit of anger, Anakin smashes through the Master's defenses and kills him. This of course immediately and irrevocable ruins any chance he has to bring them into the conflict, and they all abandon him except Obi-Wan. This leads to a path of more and more brutal actions by Anakin as he attempts to win the Clone War, culminating in his victory but also his fall to the Dark Side. One thing I had in common with the Prequels was that his injuries come in a battle with Obi-Wan. After the war he hunts down the Jedi, who he blames for everything as they did not help him in the war. Obviously there is a lot more but that's about all I feel up to writing for now. One issue I had not decided for sure how I wanted to deal with was Luke and Leia's mother. I had a lot of ideas, from their mother being a clone, to they themselves being mostly clones of Anakin, to various other possibilities. So that's summary.
IIRC, the line about the Clone Wars was dubbed in for the Special Edition (an updated re-release of ep. IV that was shown in theaters in the late 90s to hype up the prequels). The original line was " You fought with my father in the rebellion against the Empire?" Edit: apparently this question was asked by Luke of C3P0, not Obi-Wan. I misremembered, my bad.
I can't find any source for this. Also there were already discussions about it in the expanded universe before the Prequels hype began. Heir to the Empire (Written in 1991) discussed it somewhat as a war against clones.
This isn't true - the "clone wars" mentions were in the original 1977 theatrical release.
If this is true (idk if it is), that almost makes it sound like the empire would have originally existed much much longer.
Leia's "you served my father in the Clone Wars" was definitely in the original.
This is not correct. I think you're confusing it with when Luke asks Threepio if he was with the Rebellion against the Empire.
Nice one
This is both 1) objectively untrue, George had always planned that something like the CW had happened, it just wasn’t entirely fleshed out. Also there does exist lore in SW pre B.B.Y. that isn’t the clone wars. Quite a bit of it actually. And 2) possibly the most unoriginal meme post I’ve ever seen on PrequelMemes, which is impressive, since it’s PrequelMemes. Seriously, there are probably more posts of specifically this joke with specifically this image than some decent sized subreddits have posts total.
This is literally the first time I have ever seen this image, so I think you might be exaggerating a bit with that second point.
Fair enough, I probably am. Most likely a sign that I’ve been online too much recently. I am pretty sure that this is a meme that has been made at least a few times, however.
This conversation has certainly been made before—regarding how initially minor Luke's comment about the War had been, only for it to become foundational. I've seen it two or three times within the last few months. Although this specific image format isn't used incredibly often, I think.
I read a long time ago that George Lucas imagined the entire 6 episodes as one movie originally that he had to cut down into their individual parts due to length and budget and chose episode 4 ultimately because it had the best narrative hook that would leave people wanting more.
I rewatched ANH the other night and it's actually absurd how much the prequels pulls its inspiration of maybe 15 minutes of the movie. You have the obvious stuff like all the talk in Obi-wans house, but the interesting parts are when you first see mos Eisley: various animals/aliens, the pod racer-looking "trash", and what appears to be a (very tiny version) of the Droid cruisers
It's how rogue one got made too I'm pretty sure. It was just a line that didn't even mention the team by name.
Star wars fans utter inability to understand the concept of filler lines will never not be funny to me.