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The anti-trust stuff carries him pretty far here though. He was pro union in an era where that was deeply, deeply contested. Between that and his larger-than-life personality, I think he’s got a shot to make it another day or two
If it’s going to come down to two at the end, I suspect it will be Lincoln and FDR with Lincoln edging it. I’m already second guessing myself in case I’m way off 😂
Teddy Roosevelt’s racial views need some contextualization.
In the wake of Darwin’s discoveries, a flurry of now disproven “scientific” publications around race were published by reputable academics in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Teddy Roosevelt was heavily exposed to these ideas and they came to color his views not insignificantly.
This isn’t to excuse, but again to contextualize.
He was not the first to appoint an African American
Grant appointed Ebenezer Bassett as minister to Haiti, Hayes appointed Frederick Douglass as DC Marshall, etc. There might be earlier examples which I missed
Slight correction he was the first president to dine with a black man in the White House - booker t Washington.
This got so much backlash that it didn’t happen again for 30 years.
As someone below said, he was the first to dine with an African American, as he did with Booker T. Washington. It was not scheduled, but Lincoln met with Frederick Douglass at the White House, including after his 2nd inaugural address.
Also (and this is coming from a big fan of Theodore Roosevelt), the dinner with Washington was actually scheduled when TR was vice president, and he simply kept it on his schedule, seeing nothing wrong with it. The backlash was such that he did not invite Washington - or any other Black man or woman - to dine with him again during the rest of his time in Office.
Also, if we use this logic, why wouldn’t Washington get voted out? He was a slave owner, despite being a proponent of the fact that “all men are created equal”, owned several sets of dentures made from teeth pulled from slaves, and refused to do anything about the issue of slavery despite it being completely antithetical to the ideas he pushed forwards.
Even Lincoln held incredibly (for our time) racist beliefs: “…there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
Using today as a measuring stick for racial beliefs on anyone in history just doesn’t make sense.
I think part of it is that you can, at least partly, separate Washington's racism from his presidency- but you can't do the same thing for Teddy (it's a large amount of the reasoning behind his for his foreign policy, which was a *huge* part of Teddy's presidency)
One of Washington’s first actions as President was denying citizenship to black people. Also he implemented the Fugitive Slave Act.
His racism wasn’t just contained to his personal life.
I'd agree. His national parks are such a monument to the country and nature. It's hard to dislike him. Unfortunately when you start measuring against "Led the country through the largest wars in our history and won" it's just hard to compete.
It’s Teddy’s time. Incredible domestic record (if *slightly* overblown; given that Taft and Wilson for example busted far more trusts than TR - not to mention stains such as the Brownsville Affair); problematic foreign policy record (see the Philippine-American War, and the atrocities & concentration camps perpetrated by US forces).
He also gets way too much of a pass for being an imperialist, white supremacist war hawk who believed in eugenics - a product of his time, as was Woodrow Wilson who doesn’t get anywhere near the same kind of pass here.
Nevertheless, the good balances out the bad and TR’s had a good run. He deserves to be in the top 10, but it’s time for him to go now.
Teddy was not a blatant racist the way Wilson was. He actually pissed off a lot of southern racists due to his positive treatment of Holt Collier during his hunting trips in Mississippi.
Despite his beliefs on race, from what I’ve read about Teddy I don’t think he was the kind of man to sneer at people and look down on them on a personal level…. It’s important to note that the South was an extreme apartheid state. Northerners like Teddy had weird, pseudoscientific beliefs but I don’t think their culture was necessarily cruel and nasty Edit: As an aside, I think it’s important to note that there were people who didn’t believe in the pseudoscience, and who were against racism back then. It’s disingenuous to say “Everyone was racist back then. It’s okay in the context!”
Teddy was more of an individualist. He believed everyone should be judged on their own merits rather than their race, but did believe that white culture would inevitably prevail due to their industry. His views on race changed significantly by the time he was president. “The only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each Black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have.”
*”I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the 10th”* - Theodore Roosevelt, 1886
Well if we want to talk about people being a “product of their time” shouldn’t Wilson get more of a pass for being born in the south and being told ever since he was a little kid about the Lost Cause and all of that?
One of them played Birth of a Nation in the White House and the other one was the first president to ever invite a black man to dine there and wrote “The only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each Black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have.”.
Birth of a Nation was the biggest movie to ever exist at the time. It was a blockbuster. And Wilson was raised in the south and fed the Lost Cause indoctrination.
But let’s talk about Teddy. How about we start with the Brownsville Affair? Where Teddy grossly violated the constitutional rights of over 160 black American soldiers! What about the time Teddy stole… oh I don’t know, over 80 MILLION ACRES of land from Native Americans?? And speaking of Native Americans, let’s talk about how Teddy thought they were savages that were better off dead! And do I even need to bring up the Phillipines??? Come on.
Not exactly. He was also a Ivy League university professor/president & a Yankee governor. He had plenty of time/exposure to get his act together, ideologically, and he did not. Instead, he put McReynolds in his cabinet, then on the Supreme Court. I’ll credit Wilson when he was right & point out when he was very wrong.
And Teddy was from New York, and still very much racist.
Just to be clear, I absolutely think that Wilson was pretty abhorrently racist. But TR gets a pass despite being arguably just as bad.
TR was the first president who looked at the horrible conditions people lived in post industrialization and really did something about it.
It’s really hard to imagine how bad peoples living conditions were and how important it was for the president to address it.
I don’t think your giving nearly enough credit to his domestic importance.
Oh, I 100% give credit to TR for his domestic accomplishments (and I also give due credit to Wilson for much of what you just described, though of course his overall record was way more problematic), and that overall the good for TR outweighs the bad. That’s why I’ve not supported his removal until now.
Love the domestic record, hate the imperialism and foreign policy - this applies both to TR and LBJ, who I think should have been eliminated back-to-back
Can we make whats left all equally qualified to be the best. Except Pesident Lincoln ; He deserves extra credit because he gave his life for our country...
100% the other three didn’t have a hissy fit when they put in the next President after them come in as a supposed to be plant of what you wanted only to find out he was his own person, gets mad he doesn’t do what he wanted to do and runs against him in the election where he and Taft lose. All he had to do was stay in office another 4 years.
Teddy Roosevelt’s time is up. He revolutionized the presidency, but he simply didn’t accomplish nearly as much as Washington, Lincoln, or FDR.
His foreign policy was impressive (though there was some deplorable stuff here and there). I really like how he advanced the conservation movement and brokered negotiations to end the Russo-Japanese War. But he can’t compare to the man who established this country, the man who saved this country from dissolution during the Civil War, and the man who successfully led the country through the Great Depression and WW2 to emerge as a superpower.
I think you give teddy too much credit for his foreign policy, dude was a rampant imperialist and it was under his administration that America committed some of its worst atrocities in the Philippines.
I 'm gonna say Washington for fourth best. He essentially created the starting point of both the executive branch and the judiciary by appointing the first federal judges and cabinet members. He was also the peak in terms of the glory of his rule. HOWEVER compared to the other three he was far less active and energetic and all around did much less. He didn't have anything like winning the civil war, or the new deal, or even TR's significant changes to the presidency (like Washington) combined with groundbreaking economic reforms and a political realignment.
In other words, I say Washington because while he was the first and had all the benefits of being first, he didn't really have or intend to have any political realignment or drastic transformation. He probably could have directed his energies towards that too since he had basically infinite political capital, unlike any other president. It would be Adams and Jefferson to really take a crack at that. Of the four S tier presidents (and these are the four I rank at the top) I think Washington is actually the least impressive if you're just looking at his eight years.
He had something arguably more important than winning the Civil War, the New Deal, or the Progressive Era: he made all of those things possible by giving the blueprint to how to be a president and also not fucking it up.
Look at basically any Latin American nation, they are testament to the fact that having a good first leader with noble intentions and subsequent effective follow through is CRUCIAL to a successful nation. Washington was that guy, and he deserves to be at bare minimum top 2 for that. There is an America without the Roosevelts, the same cannot be said for Lincoln and Washington.
I think part of Washington’s greatness, and a lot of why modern people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it, is based on what he _didn’t_ do rather than what he did.
It’s not just that he left office peacefully (that that is part of it.) He was basically given incredible cosmic power and didn’t use 99% of it. That set the template for the constraints on the presidency. Imagine if he had been an Adams and established the precedent of something like the Alien and Sedition acts more foundationally, and how much that would have impacted US history. Or any number of other things. Anything he did, later presidents would have pointed to as “it’s fine, Washington did it” and given Washington’s revered status they would likely have been given a pass.
Yeah absolutely. Setting the stage for everything and the way he handled it, makes our union today. Washington deserves to be 1#. That doesn’t say anything bad about the accomplishments of others, we can still celebrate their triumphs as well.
Yeah, I also personally put him in first just due to the almost singular role he played in making the nation solvent. Now I don’t mind if he loses to Lincoln, but second is as low as allowed.
This sort of reminds me of sports debates around “the greatest”. It usually comes down to pretty much the first person to play the sport versus the dominant modern athletes.
> He had something arguably more important than winning the Civil War,
Nah winning the civil war saved the country AND abolished slavery. Not sure it can be beat
They conveniently forget that Roosevelt wrote “the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have” after becoming the first president to invite a black man to dine at the White House after inviting Book T. Washington to dinner just weeks into his presidency.
I am a huge fan of Washington in how he shaped the nation and for his constant refusal to seize power like many others in his role would but this is a very fair point against him. I still think he deserves higher but unlike teddy where you would say he was very much shaped by not only his peers but the idea of what a world power is through imperialism making him take actions we now recognize as bad, but done to better the nation on a world stage in a very flawed world view.
Washington by example had many friends like Alexander Hamilton, John adams, the Marquees de Lafayette (later on in life), John Lauren’s were all abolitionist and recognized the hypocrisy of the US call for liberty while still practicing slavery yet Washington still refused to do much about slavery not even freeing his own slaves until after his and his wife’s passing something that leaves a dark stain on his legacy since we know it cannot be purely attributed to ignorance of his time. Washington knew better and if there was a single early president that had the influence and gravitas to start the process of emancipation early it was Washington and his refusal to do so even at the behest of close friends is his greatest failure. Also doesn’t help that Simon Bolivar someone in a similar scenario to him with arguably more to lose by freeing his slaves did in fact do it and made emancipation a principle when Gran Colombia’s economy also relied heavily on slavery.
Not that the internment camps weren’t a terrible stain on FDR’s record, but Washington owned human beings and held them in bondage before, during, and after his presidency
George Washington destroyed and massacred Iroquois villages, crushed the whiskey rebellion, and abandoned our allies in France, turning his back on the successor to our revolutionary movement. Also he's the only slaveowner left on the list. It's time for George to go.
Washington was a great President but no way he beats Lincoln or either Roosevelt.
I don't think France is a strong argument as there is not much we could have done as a weak and brand new nation with barely a semblance of a Navy. We couldn't project power like that back then, especially if we went up against the European Coalitions (if sided with the rebels) or against Napoleon's Army (if sided with the King Louis Monarchy).
The War of 1812 would have happened a lot sooner and would have absolutely crushed us.
Hot take here i guess but his action on the whiskey rebellion is objectively good unless you're a libertarian.
It cemented that the federal government had power and would assert it's authority.
It also helped clarify what is protest vs. what is armed rebellion.
Big Washington win and crucial to the development of our nation.
Are you also going to put Abe to task for crushing the slaver rebellion? Also Washington’s non intervention in Europe was pretty much the only way to keep the country intact, if we’d been dragged into the napoleonic/french republican wars that early it would’ve been a death blow. Slavery is a huge issue but he was the only president to actually free his slaves. And basically every president prior to Coolidge had terrible Native American policies.
I agree that Washington should go based upon slave ownership. He had contemporaries (John Adam’s) that were against it. So it isn’t as if he wasn’t aware of strong counter arguments. And by accounts, he wasn’t a ‘gentile’ slave owner but a harsh one.
Enough already with the “it was a different time” arguments. Because in every instance there is a strong faction of people who present strong moral arguments against instances of dehumanization.
If we’re going to go that route we should remember that Lincoln had far more (and more powerful) contemporaries who were against slavery yet he was not an abolitionist until he was forced to become one in the midst of the Civil War. Also, FDR in effect enslaved an entire race of Americans postbellum.
I’m not justifying Washington’s (or any president’s) actions or inactions when it came to race or any other moral problem. All I’m saying is that we still need to weigh good vs bad with a dual lens: both our time and theirs. Every “good” person in history has done and believed horrible things, and many died not being sorry for them. With all that in mind, I still hold Washington as number 1 on my list, and other racist people like Jefferson, Teddy, Lincoln, etc. are not excluded from my top 10
Theodore Roosevelt created the modern presidency as we know it through the bully pulpit.
He was born into wealth but despite that committed his life to improving the lives of the lower classes through the progressive moment.
My vote is to keep teddy and remove fdr. I don’t think you get an fdr presidency without tr defining the path.
Teddy and FDR have very similar stories. Every thing you said about Teddy can be said about FDR.
The current version of the President is modeled after FDR. Coolidge and Hoover both did not share Teddy's views on how the President should act. Every president after FDR has gone with the Good Neighbor Policy and taken an interventionist stance in the world. FDR set up the US to be a world super power and future presidents had to take a more active role in foreign politics (up to you if you consider that a good thing).
FDR was also born into wealth and committed his life to improving the lives of the lower classes through the progressive moment.
I don't think you can credit FDR's presidency to Teddy defining the path. Technically Andrew Jackson was the one who expanded the power of the executive branch. Both FDR and Teddy looked up to Jackson for this reason.
I see your points but still believe Teddy defined it.
Tr did the square deal before fdr did the new deal
He created the bully pulpit which fdr later used as well eg fireside chats
He defined the progressive movement which basically means help poorer people live better lives.
Fdr did all these things on a bigger scale but they were modeled after tr.
He was very important for a young country. He kept the office dignified but not on the level of royalty to prevent a repeat of what they had just left. He was also humble and left office after 2 terms because he didn't want it to be just an extension of the monarchy, creating a precedent that was mostly kept for nearly 200 years. Without him the office of the president could have looked very differently
He set the standard for what the president even was. If he wanted the US to become an absolute monarchy like every other country at the time he could have but chose not to.
FDR should go.
I’d be OK with either TR or FDR going next.
My vote is for FDR to go. He had a lot of years in office and made a lot of poor decisions that extended out the pain of the Great Depression. He didn’t get us out of it. WWII did with the required spending and that was thrust upon him.
Yes TDR has problems. But he was facing a nation on the edge of social revolution. There were aristocrats who owned the monopolies and the tens of millions of extremely poor. TDR was elected a conservative but then turned his back on the aristocracy and broke up their trusts. He brought prosperity to the average American.
Having said that, FDR beat the Nazis and Japanese. He saved democracy around the world. The reason I didn’t let that put FDR ahead is that I think any of these top 20 presidents would have led our people to victory. Our industrial might and national character won the war.
Looking down the road…. Lincoln must be number 1 at all costs. Washington gave birth to a nation that made white men free and black men slaves. Lincoln made all men free and in every way was a moral and intellectual giant.
Close one for me, but FDR should go first.
FDR’s New Deal focused on the 3 “R’s” — Relief, Recovery, and Reform.
He excelled at the Reform — in banking (Glass-Steagall and FDIC), stock market (SEC), Monetary (ending the Gold Standard), and Labor (Wagner Act, NLRB)
A mixed bag in Relief — both good (SSA, FHA) and not good (AAA, NRA)
He struggled with economic Recovery, at least in the long term — signs of economic improvement in production and employment, until 1937 when New Deal spending was scaled back. Then numbers plummeted back down close to 1932 numbers.
He boosted American morale and made the Democratic Party the party of minorities (New Deal Coalition), but failed to help improve the lives of minorities (in some cases, like the AAA, actually made things worse for them).
His track record on Civil Rights was poor, and ignored Jim Crow in hopes of maintaining wealthy white Southern Democrat support for the New Deal.
His court packing plan was seen as an unpopular power grab even then.
And while he led the U.S. through WWII admirably, he shouldn’t get as much credit as he does for deciding to join the war, as that decision fell into his lap once Pearl Harbor happened. Any other president would have done the same.
As for TR, although he was not actually the greatest trust buster among the Progressive Era presidents (that would be Wilson), his efforts to reverse Laissez Faire economics by the federal government and go after over-powerful corporations at a crucial point in our country’s history where corporate trusts could have grown to obtain irreversible power over American society was his greatest contribution as president.
Then throw in his conservation achievements, reviving the Monroe Doctrine in Latin America, rapidly increasing the size of and modernizing the US navy, the acquisition and building of the Panama Canal, stepping in to negotiate and prevent what would have been a disastrous coal miners strike, and improving consumer safety, among many other accomplishments. I believe TR has had a slightly more net positive impact as president than FDR. FDR wouldn’t have been able to increase the size and scope of the presidency if TR hadn’t done it first.
(Admittedly, TR’s track record on civil rights was not any better than FDR).
Speaking of Civil Rights, the last, and perhaps most convincing thing for me is executive order 9066. TR’s views on race might be sketchy, but he never issued an executive order that targeted a specific race of people as extreme as putting Japanese Americans in internment camps.
Why are we all blind about FDR dude would have been hitler if could have, the reason we realized term limits were a good idea is because he abused his power so much!
The day I’ve waited for has finally come 😢 still think TR should have gone first
Edit: I meant before Truman. Not that TR was the worst of all time and should have gone in the first round
It’s not a diss on TR, but Truman almost single handedly created the world order we have to today. Creation of NATO, turning Germany and Japan into an ally post WW2. Domestically refusing to bow to the segregationist wings of his party, and by winning in 1948 showing that it was the path forward. While my favorite I don’t think I can support Truman above Lincoln or Washington for the normal reasons, and I’d debate putting him above FDR. TR certainly could have handled post WWII America and had as monumental of an impact, but he didn’t have that opportunity. Truman was the right man at the right time
George Washington owned slaves, a lot these conversations I'm seeing about Teddy Roosevelt talk about his opinions on race and I feel like this fact is being overlooked.
Weird that the guy who dropped two nukes on a country that didn't really need it is so high. And before you start with the land invasion bullshit, that wasn't even considered seriously and there are multiple people, like Eisenhower or William D. Leahy, that even said so.
Establishing the country and leading us to becoming an independent nation
Vs
Leading us through a war and emancipating the slaves
Vs
Rough riders and monopoly busting/national parks
Vs
Leading us through the Great Depression and then through WW2…
Sorry Teddy, you are a great one, but not cracking the top three here.
I know this is unpopular, but Washington made some serious mistakes.
The most obvious of which is thinking that if you design a political system not built around political parties they won't appear.
When what actually happens is that parties form naturally and because you didn't build your system to accommodate them, they absolutely dominate.
Also I don't like slavers.
Washington was a great general but what did he do as a statesman? One of the things he was known for was for leaving at the end of his second term, setting a precedent unbroken for about 140 years. But his record as President was meh compared to the other 3.
You can’t keep George in for his pre-Presidential accomplishments. This is a post about their individual Presidential legacy, and again I say meh.
For debate: was Washington a good President, or a good general? A good politician, or a good compromise? So many during his day wanted him to be King, there was almost no other choice to be the first President, with his election basically being unopposed.
He did establish some norms, such as establishing the de-facto 2 terms (until FDR and WWII ruined it and required the 22nd amendment), ‘Mr.President’, and a cabinet.
But, I ask you, would not any Founding Father chosen have established norms? Aside from a man of no party, would not have Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, and possibly others been able to equally establish a better government after the failed Articles of Confederation?
Don’t get me wrong, I love Washington. But I see him more as a general who helped us gain our freedom, than a politician that helped us establish and keep it.
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FINAL FOUR HERE WE GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 
 This is going to be quite the entertainment.
Bye Teddy, thanks for being a really good president.
We all knew it would come to this…
Teddy, time to leave softly and take your big stick with you.
This is basically the modern Mount Rushmore, no surprises.
Damn, I hadn’t even thought of it that way but you’re absolutely right.
Coming down to the last 4, 3 of them are on Mt Rushmore
And all of them have been featured In Sid Meier’s Civilization Games
The true metric for great leaders.
#Civ4Life.
And the other was President for its grand opening.
Tough choices at this point
I think one of these gents is certainly fascinating, but way out of his league at this point.
Who
Teddy Bear
The anti-trust stuff carries him pretty far here though. He was pro union in an era where that was deeply, deeply contested. Between that and his larger-than-life personality, I think he’s got a shot to make it another day or two
Picking #5 was hard. Picking #4 is easy because there's a very clear top 3.
If it’s going to come down to two at the end, I suspect it will be Lincoln and FDR with Lincoln edging it. I’m already second guessing myself in case I’m way off 😂
lincoln is EDGING?!?!
It’s fitting this thread is happening at night. "Death had to take Roosevelt sleeping, for if he had been awake, there would have been a fight."
Daytime for me - 3PM for me when I posted my initial comment minutes after this round began haha
Teddy Roosevelt’s racial views need some contextualization. In the wake of Darwin’s discoveries, a flurry of now disproven “scientific” publications around race were published by reputable academics in the late 19th and early 20th century. Teddy Roosevelt was heavily exposed to these ideas and they came to color his views not insignificantly. This isn’t to excuse, but again to contextualize.
He also was first to bring a black man in White House and the first to appoint one to office
He was not the first to appoint an African American Grant appointed Ebenezer Bassett as minister to Haiti, Hayes appointed Frederick Douglass as DC Marshall, etc. There might be earlier examples which I missed
Common Grant and Hayes W
Slight correction he was the first president to dine with a black man in the White House - booker t Washington. This got so much backlash that it didn’t happen again for 30 years.
Lmao imagine being THAT racist. Like, if you were to make a caricature of a modern racist he wouldn't be that racist
Bro it got people so mad they were writing POEMS!!!!!
As someone below said, he was the first to dine with an African American, as he did with Booker T. Washington. It was not scheduled, but Lincoln met with Frederick Douglass at the White House, including after his 2nd inaugural address. Also (and this is coming from a big fan of Theodore Roosevelt), the dinner with Washington was actually scheduled when TR was vice president, and he simply kept it on his schedule, seeing nothing wrong with it. The backlash was such that he did not invite Washington - or any other Black man or woman - to dine with him again during the rest of his time in Office.
>He also was first to bring a black man in White House Just untrue, Lincoln for one met Frederick douglas twice there
People are complicated. We know it’s junk science now but they didn’t
Also, if we use this logic, why wouldn’t Washington get voted out? He was a slave owner, despite being a proponent of the fact that “all men are created equal”, owned several sets of dentures made from teeth pulled from slaves, and refused to do anything about the issue of slavery despite it being completely antithetical to the ideas he pushed forwards.
Even Lincoln held incredibly (for our time) racist beliefs: “…there must be the position of superior. I am as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.” Using today as a measuring stick for racial beliefs on anyone in history just doesn’t make sense.
I think part of it is that you can, at least partly, separate Washington's racism from his presidency- but you can't do the same thing for Teddy (it's a large amount of the reasoning behind his for his foreign policy, which was a *huge* part of Teddy's presidency)
One of Washington’s first actions as President was denying citizenship to black people. Also he implemented the Fugitive Slave Act. His racism wasn’t just contained to his personal life.
Teddy’s the answer. One of the best all-time presidents. But if you’re in the top 4 of something, someone still has to be 4th.
I'd agree. His national parks are such a monument to the country and nature. It's hard to dislike him. Unfortunately when you start measuring against "Led the country through the largest wars in our history and won" it's just hard to compete.
So we getting rid of the big game hunter or what? We know this thing is going Lincoln, but it’s been a strong showing in the final four
It’s fitting this thread is happening at night. "Death had to take Roosevelt sleeping, for if he had been awake, there would have been a fight."
It’s Teddy’s time. Incredible domestic record (if *slightly* overblown; given that Taft and Wilson for example busted far more trusts than TR - not to mention stains such as the Brownsville Affair); problematic foreign policy record (see the Philippine-American War, and the atrocities & concentration camps perpetrated by US forces). He also gets way too much of a pass for being an imperialist, white supremacist war hawk who believed in eugenics - a product of his time, as was Woodrow Wilson who doesn’t get anywhere near the same kind of pass here. Nevertheless, the good balances out the bad and TR’s had a good run. He deserves to be in the top 10, but it’s time for him to go now.
Teddy was not a blatant racist the way Wilson was. He actually pissed off a lot of southern racists due to his positive treatment of Holt Collier during his hunting trips in Mississippi.
Despite his beliefs on race, from what I’ve read about Teddy I don’t think he was the kind of man to sneer at people and look down on them on a personal level…. It’s important to note that the South was an extreme apartheid state. Northerners like Teddy had weird, pseudoscientific beliefs but I don’t think their culture was necessarily cruel and nasty Edit: As an aside, I think it’s important to note that there were people who didn’t believe in the pseudoscience, and who were against racism back then. It’s disingenuous to say “Everyone was racist back then. It’s okay in the context!”
Teddy was more of an individualist. He believed everyone should be judged on their own merits rather than their race, but did believe that white culture would inevitably prevail due to their industry. His views on race changed significantly by the time he was president. “The only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each Black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have.”
Words to live by.
*”I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the 10th”* - Theodore Roosevelt, 1886
Well if we want to talk about people being a “product of their time” shouldn’t Wilson get more of a pass for being born in the south and being told ever since he was a little kid about the Lost Cause and all of that?
He was a history professor. Not too many excuses to be a Lost Causer in that profession.
Indoctrination is a hell of a drug. But yeah. Just like Teddy had little excuse to be racist either 👍
One of them played Birth of a Nation in the White House and the other one was the first president to ever invite a black man to dine there and wrote “The only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each Black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have.”.
Birth of a Nation was the biggest movie to ever exist at the time. It was a blockbuster. And Wilson was raised in the south and fed the Lost Cause indoctrination. But let’s talk about Teddy. How about we start with the Brownsville Affair? Where Teddy grossly violated the constitutional rights of over 160 black American soldiers! What about the time Teddy stole… oh I don’t know, over 80 MILLION ACRES of land from Native Americans?? And speaking of Native Americans, let’s talk about how Teddy thought they were savages that were better off dead! And do I even need to bring up the Phillipines??? Come on.
Not exactly. He was also a Ivy League university professor/president & a Yankee governor. He had plenty of time/exposure to get his act together, ideologically, and he did not. Instead, he put McReynolds in his cabinet, then on the Supreme Court. I’ll credit Wilson when he was right & point out when he was very wrong.
And Teddy was from New York, and still very much racist. Just to be clear, I absolutely think that Wilson was pretty abhorrently racist. But TR gets a pass despite being arguably just as bad.
I mean if that’s why we’re kicking him out then Washington needs to go first…Washington owned slaves Afterall. I’d say that’s worse.
FDR vs Lincoln grand final, let’s go
Nah let’s do battle of the Roosevelts! Have the cripple fight the asthmatic!
TR was the first president who looked at the horrible conditions people lived in post industrialization and really did something about it. It’s really hard to imagine how bad peoples living conditions were and how important it was for the president to address it. I don’t think your giving nearly enough credit to his domestic importance.
Oh, I 100% give credit to TR for his domestic accomplishments (and I also give due credit to Wilson for much of what you just described, though of course his overall record was way more problematic), and that overall the good for TR outweighs the bad. That’s why I’ve not supported his removal until now. Love the domestic record, hate the imperialism and foreign policy - this applies both to TR and LBJ, who I think should have been eliminated back-to-back
Eeyup. Love Teddy… but it is finally his time. Fantastic writeup!
Completely agree.
I'm OK with the racism and imperialism, but not the trust-busting and national parks. Kick him out!
Flair checks out.
Can we make whats left all equally qualified to be the best. Except Pesident Lincoln ; He deserves extra credit because he gave his life for our country...
I see what you did there…. But if that’s the case should JFK get extra credit?
Honestly I think people do give him extra credit. His reputation is so much bigger than his actual accomplishments in office.
This I agree with.
Yeah, JFK at 9 is a ton of extra credit
He did get a special title for the post when he was eliminated, does that count?
So did McKinley!
He didn’t give his life, it was taken. Had he died on the field of battle, I’d have given him credit for giving his life.
Gone too soon, President Truman. Final Five ain’t good enough for you. 🫡
We had a good, good run.
The buck stopped there :/
Time for Teddy to “go”. Top 4 doesn’t seem like a lot of negative has to be said
Now THIS is March Madness
Ted's gotta go
100% the other three didn’t have a hissy fit when they put in the next President after them come in as a supposed to be plant of what you wanted only to find out he was his own person, gets mad he doesn’t do what he wanted to do and runs against him in the election where he and Taft lose. All he had to do was stay in office another 4 years.
Roosevelt Super Bowl LETS GOOOOOOOO!
Aren’t we way overdue for another Rossevelt Presidency?
Everyone's a winner at this point, but sorry Teddy your time has come.
FDR vs Teddy and Teddy don't take no shit. My vote goes to FDR getting pushed down the hill.
Now you've got FDR rolling in his grave
lol I see what you did there.
Teddy Roosevelt’s time is up. He revolutionized the presidency, but he simply didn’t accomplish nearly as much as Washington, Lincoln, or FDR. His foreign policy was impressive (though there was some deplorable stuff here and there). I really like how he advanced the conservation movement and brokered negotiations to end the Russo-Japanese War. But he can’t compare to the man who established this country, the man who saved this country from dissolution during the Civil War, and the man who successfully led the country through the Great Depression and WW2 to emerge as a superpower.
I think you give teddy too much credit for his foreign policy, dude was a rampant imperialist and it was under his administration that America committed some of its worst atrocities in the Philippines.
I 'm gonna say Washington for fourth best. He essentially created the starting point of both the executive branch and the judiciary by appointing the first federal judges and cabinet members. He was also the peak in terms of the glory of his rule. HOWEVER compared to the other three he was far less active and energetic and all around did much less. He didn't have anything like winning the civil war, or the new deal, or even TR's significant changes to the presidency (like Washington) combined with groundbreaking economic reforms and a political realignment. In other words, I say Washington because while he was the first and had all the benefits of being first, he didn't really have or intend to have any political realignment or drastic transformation. He probably could have directed his energies towards that too since he had basically infinite political capital, unlike any other president. It would be Adams and Jefferson to really take a crack at that. Of the four S tier presidents (and these are the four I rank at the top) I think Washington is actually the least impressive if you're just looking at his eight years.
He had something arguably more important than winning the Civil War, the New Deal, or the Progressive Era: he made all of those things possible by giving the blueprint to how to be a president and also not fucking it up. Look at basically any Latin American nation, they are testament to the fact that having a good first leader with noble intentions and subsequent effective follow through is CRUCIAL to a successful nation. Washington was that guy, and he deserves to be at bare minimum top 2 for that. There is an America without the Roosevelts, the same cannot be said for Lincoln and Washington.
I think part of Washington’s greatness, and a lot of why modern people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it, is based on what he _didn’t_ do rather than what he did. It’s not just that he left office peacefully (that that is part of it.) He was basically given incredible cosmic power and didn’t use 99% of it. That set the template for the constraints on the presidency. Imagine if he had been an Adams and established the precedent of something like the Alien and Sedition acts more foundationally, and how much that would have impacted US history. Or any number of other things. Anything he did, later presidents would have pointed to as “it’s fine, Washington did it” and given Washington’s revered status they would likely have been given a pass.
Yeah absolutely. Setting the stage for everything and the way he handled it, makes our union today. Washington deserves to be 1#. That doesn’t say anything bad about the accomplishments of others, we can still celebrate their triumphs as well.
Yeah, I also personally put him in first just due to the almost singular role he played in making the nation solvent. Now I don’t mind if he loses to Lincoln, but second is as low as allowed.
This sort of reminds me of sports debates around “the greatest”. It usually comes down to pretty much the first person to play the sport versus the dominant modern athletes.
> He had something arguably more important than winning the Civil War, Nah winning the civil war saved the country AND abolished slavery. Not sure it can be beat
Establishing the country that got saved seems pretty good to me
Yeah I’d say it’s equal to the saving but once you add on abolishing slavery really no competition
People here are criticizing Teddy for his racial views, while Washington owned black people as slaves and sent armies against Native Americans.
They conveniently forget that Roosevelt wrote “the only wise and honorable and Christian thing to do is to treat each black man and each white man strictly on his merits as a man, giving him no more and no less than he shows himself worthy to have” after becoming the first president to invite a black man to dine at the White House after inviting Book T. Washington to dinner just weeks into his presidency.
Seriously. or some people haven't done a deep dive into specific presidents.
I am a huge fan of Washington in how he shaped the nation and for his constant refusal to seize power like many others in his role would but this is a very fair point against him. I still think he deserves higher but unlike teddy where you would say he was very much shaped by not only his peers but the idea of what a world power is through imperialism making him take actions we now recognize as bad, but done to better the nation on a world stage in a very flawed world view. Washington by example had many friends like Alexander Hamilton, John adams, the Marquees de Lafayette (later on in life), John Lauren’s were all abolitionist and recognized the hypocrisy of the US call for liberty while still practicing slavery yet Washington still refused to do much about slavery not even freeing his own slaves until after his and his wife’s passing something that leaves a dark stain on his legacy since we know it cannot be purely attributed to ignorance of his time. Washington knew better and if there was a single early president that had the influence and gravitas to start the process of emancipation early it was Washington and his refusal to do so even at the behest of close friends is his greatest failure. Also doesn’t help that Simon Bolivar someone in a similar scenario to him with arguably more to lose by freeing his slaves did in fact do it and made emancipation a principle when Gran Colombia’s economy also relied heavily on slavery.
FDR. The internment camps can't be forgotten...
Not that the internment camps weren’t a terrible stain on FDR’s record, but Washington owned human beings and held them in bondage before, during, and after his presidency
FDR
Ulysses s grant clears everyone don’t care if he’s 11th lol
George Washington destroyed and massacred Iroquois villages, crushed the whiskey rebellion, and abandoned our allies in France, turning his back on the successor to our revolutionary movement. Also he's the only slaveowner left on the list. It's time for George to go. Washington was a great President but no way he beats Lincoln or either Roosevelt.
I don't think France is a strong argument as there is not much we could have done as a weak and brand new nation with barely a semblance of a Navy. We couldn't project power like that back then, especially if we went up against the European Coalitions (if sided with the rebels) or against Napoleon's Army (if sided with the King Louis Monarchy). The War of 1812 would have happened a lot sooner and would have absolutely crushed us.
Hot take here i guess but his action on the whiskey rebellion is objectively good unless you're a libertarian. It cemented that the federal government had power and would assert it's authority. It also helped clarify what is protest vs. what is armed rebellion. Big Washington win and crucial to the development of our nation.
Are you also going to put Abe to task for crushing the slaver rebellion? Also Washington’s non intervention in Europe was pretty much the only way to keep the country intact, if we’d been dragged into the napoleonic/french republican wars that early it would’ve been a death blow. Slavery is a huge issue but he was the only president to actually free his slaves. And basically every president prior to Coolidge had terrible Native American policies.
It must be nice to be completely enlightened on everything now
No way that Washington isn't Top 3.
I agree that Washington should go based upon slave ownership. He had contemporaries (John Adam’s) that were against it. So it isn’t as if he wasn’t aware of strong counter arguments. And by accounts, he wasn’t a ‘gentile’ slave owner but a harsh one. Enough already with the “it was a different time” arguments. Because in every instance there is a strong faction of people who present strong moral arguments against instances of dehumanization.
If we’re going to go that route we should remember that Lincoln had far more (and more powerful) contemporaries who were against slavery yet he was not an abolitionist until he was forced to become one in the midst of the Civil War. Also, FDR in effect enslaved an entire race of Americans postbellum. I’m not justifying Washington’s (or any president’s) actions or inactions when it came to race or any other moral problem. All I’m saying is that we still need to weigh good vs bad with a dual lens: both our time and theirs. Every “good” person in history has done and believed horrible things, and many died not being sorry for them. With all that in mind, I still hold Washington as number 1 on my list, and other racist people like Jefferson, Teddy, Lincoln, etc. are not excluded from my top 10
Fdr
Theodore Roosevelt created the modern presidency as we know it through the bully pulpit. He was born into wealth but despite that committed his life to improving the lives of the lower classes through the progressive moment. My vote is to keep teddy and remove fdr. I don’t think you get an fdr presidency without tr defining the path.
Teddy and FDR have very similar stories. Every thing you said about Teddy can be said about FDR. The current version of the President is modeled after FDR. Coolidge and Hoover both did not share Teddy's views on how the President should act. Every president after FDR has gone with the Good Neighbor Policy and taken an interventionist stance in the world. FDR set up the US to be a world super power and future presidents had to take a more active role in foreign politics (up to you if you consider that a good thing). FDR was also born into wealth and committed his life to improving the lives of the lower classes through the progressive moment. I don't think you can credit FDR's presidency to Teddy defining the path. Technically Andrew Jackson was the one who expanded the power of the executive branch. Both FDR and Teddy looked up to Jackson for this reason.
I see your points but still believe Teddy defined it. Tr did the square deal before fdr did the new deal He created the bully pulpit which fdr later used as well eg fireside chats He defined the progressive movement which basically means help poorer people live better lives. Fdr did all these things on a bigger scale but they were modeled after tr.
So you believe the person who was president first gets to count the achievements of future presidents as their own?
Im giving more credit to the original inventor of the object even if a later person made important improvements to the object.
I think FDR should take the top spot but this is a pretty compelling argument for voting him out, fair play
Washington is over loved just cause he was the first smh
He was very important for a young country. He kept the office dignified but not on the level of royalty to prevent a repeat of what they had just left. He was also humble and left office after 2 terms because he didn't want it to be just an extension of the monarchy, creating a precedent that was mostly kept for nearly 200 years. Without him the office of the president could have looked very differently
He set the standard for what the president even was. If he wanted the US to become an absolute monarchy like every other country at the time he could have but chose not to.
FDR should go. I’d be OK with either TR or FDR going next. My vote is for FDR to go. He had a lot of years in office and made a lot of poor decisions that extended out the pain of the Great Depression. He didn’t get us out of it. WWII did with the required spending and that was thrust upon him. Yes TDR has problems. But he was facing a nation on the edge of social revolution. There were aristocrats who owned the monopolies and the tens of millions of extremely poor. TDR was elected a conservative but then turned his back on the aristocracy and broke up their trusts. He brought prosperity to the average American. Having said that, FDR beat the Nazis and Japanese. He saved democracy around the world. The reason I didn’t let that put FDR ahead is that I think any of these top 20 presidents would have led our people to victory. Our industrial might and national character won the war. Looking down the road…. Lincoln must be number 1 at all costs. Washington gave birth to a nation that made white men free and black men slaves. Lincoln made all men free and in every way was a moral and intellectual giant.
Fourth is a fine spot to land, but Teddy has got to go now. Top 3 were always gonna be FDR, Lincoln, and Washington
FDR
FDR, interment camps
FDR must go
Close one for me, but FDR should go first. FDR’s New Deal focused on the 3 “R’s” — Relief, Recovery, and Reform. He excelled at the Reform — in banking (Glass-Steagall and FDIC), stock market (SEC), Monetary (ending the Gold Standard), and Labor (Wagner Act, NLRB) A mixed bag in Relief — both good (SSA, FHA) and not good (AAA, NRA) He struggled with economic Recovery, at least in the long term — signs of economic improvement in production and employment, until 1937 when New Deal spending was scaled back. Then numbers plummeted back down close to 1932 numbers. He boosted American morale and made the Democratic Party the party of minorities (New Deal Coalition), but failed to help improve the lives of minorities (in some cases, like the AAA, actually made things worse for them). His track record on Civil Rights was poor, and ignored Jim Crow in hopes of maintaining wealthy white Southern Democrat support for the New Deal. His court packing plan was seen as an unpopular power grab even then. And while he led the U.S. through WWII admirably, he shouldn’t get as much credit as he does for deciding to join the war, as that decision fell into his lap once Pearl Harbor happened. Any other president would have done the same. As for TR, although he was not actually the greatest trust buster among the Progressive Era presidents (that would be Wilson), his efforts to reverse Laissez Faire economics by the federal government and go after over-powerful corporations at a crucial point in our country’s history where corporate trusts could have grown to obtain irreversible power over American society was his greatest contribution as president. Then throw in his conservation achievements, reviving the Monroe Doctrine in Latin America, rapidly increasing the size of and modernizing the US navy, the acquisition and building of the Panama Canal, stepping in to negotiate and prevent what would have been a disastrous coal miners strike, and improving consumer safety, among many other accomplishments. I believe TR has had a slightly more net positive impact as president than FDR. FDR wouldn’t have been able to increase the size and scope of the presidency if TR hadn’t done it first. (Admittedly, TR’s track record on civil rights was not any better than FDR). Speaking of Civil Rights, the last, and perhaps most convincing thing for me is executive order 9066. TR’s views on race might be sketchy, but he never issued an executive order that targeted a specific race of people as extreme as putting Japanese Americans in internment camps.
Theodore Roosevelt was an excellent President but not one of the three greatest. Time to go, Teddy
Come on guys! Teddy is definitely the better Roosevelt! FDR should be eliminated.
FDR
Teddy Roosevelt is next. Than FDR, then Washington and Lincoln is the winner.
Why are we all blind about FDR dude would have been hitler if could have, the reason we realized term limits were a good idea is because he abused his power so much!
Teddy Roosevelt!
TR
Between the Roosevelts I’d say FDR probably, TR tomorrow.
George Washington
it's time for TR to go.
Teddy
Teddy Roosevelt next. The top 4 are likely going to be Lincoln, Washington, FDR, TR.
Sorry Teddy
It’s teddy, and we all know it’s going to be teddy
Lots of great points made here. Sorry, TR, 4 is as high as you get in my book.
Teddy definitely fucked up by creating Bull-Moose party. It directly caused his actual party to lose.
Teddy Roosevelt gotta go I guess
eliminate teddy roosevelt he was kinda useless, just eliminate him.
Clearly, TR is next to go.
1st roosevelt or Lincoln but probably teddy
Truman making it to 5th is ridiculous lmao; guy shouldn't even have been President in the first place
sorry teddy.
The day I’ve waited for has finally come 😢 still think TR should have gone first Edit: I meant before Truman. Not that TR was the worst of all time and should have gone in the first round
>still think TR should have gone first why?
It’s not a diss on TR, but Truman almost single handedly created the world order we have to today. Creation of NATO, turning Germany and Japan into an ally post WW2. Domestically refusing to bow to the segregationist wings of his party, and by winning in 1948 showing that it was the path forward. While my favorite I don’t think I can support Truman above Lincoln or Washington for the normal reasons, and I’d debate putting him above FDR. TR certainly could have handled post WWII America and had as monumental of an impact, but he didn’t have that opportunity. Truman was the right man at the right time
Ok I misinterpreted your comment - You mean TR before Truman, not the worst of all time. OK - I can see your point.
Oh, I see how I said the wrong, yes TR is definitely a top 10/top5, I just meant before Truman not the worst of all time XD
George Washington owned slaves, a lot these conversations I'm seeing about Teddy Roosevelt talk about his opinions on race and I feel like this fact is being overlooked.
Teddy is easily over fdr
Teddy or Washington
Teddy is next
Teddy Boy bye
A solid top four as they all were great. I love Teddy but I think it’s his time.
Teddy Roosevelt.
Teddy now.
Washington, Lincoln, and FDR are basically the three founders of the major eras in American history. Sorry Teddy.
Yeah, I think this is an easy one- bye, Teddy!
Weird that the guy who dropped two nukes on a country that didn't really need it is so high. And before you start with the land invasion bullshit, that wasn't even considered seriously and there are multiple people, like Eisenhower or William D. Leahy, that even said so.
Probably TR at this point.
What??? Teddy should have gone before Truman, it's his time.
Establishing the country and leading us to becoming an independent nation Vs Leading us through a war and emancipating the slaves Vs Rough riders and monopoly busting/national parks Vs Leading us through the Great Depression and then through WW2… Sorry Teddy, you are a great one, but not cracking the top three here.
Teddy, bye
I hate to say this, but I think it’s now Teddy’s time to go.
I know this is unpopular, but Washington made some serious mistakes. The most obvious of which is thinking that if you design a political system not built around political parties they won't appear. When what actually happens is that parties form naturally and because you didn't build your system to accommodate them, they absolutely dominate. Also I don't like slavers.
TR vs FDR! I hope that Teddy wins!
Chester should have won. Sigh.
Washington was a great general but what did he do as a statesman? One of the things he was known for was for leaving at the end of his second term, setting a precedent unbroken for about 140 years. But his record as President was meh compared to the other 3. You can’t keep George in for his pre-Presidential accomplishments. This is a post about their individual Presidential legacy, and again I say meh.
Fdr
I love FDR but if it comes down to him or TR I think it’s gotta be FDR who gets eliminated
Theodore Roosevelt
Teddy
Teddy is gone.
Going for Washington. Slaves and attacking the Native Americans is actually worse than than the internment camps.
What about fining farmers for trying to feed their animals? That was pretty bad.
Teddy, then FDR, then we're gonna have to choose between Lincoln and Washington for GOAT.
Bye Teddy.
Theodore Roosevelt ngl…
Teddy
Sorry Teddy. Time to go.
Roosevelt has my vote lmao
TR
Washington clearly
Washington.
Theodore Roosevelt
FDR needs to go.
One of the Roosevelts. I’m going for FDR.
Fdr was so popular he held office for four terms. The winner is obvious
For debate: was Washington a good President, or a good general? A good politician, or a good compromise? So many during his day wanted him to be King, there was almost no other choice to be the first President, with his election basically being unopposed. He did establish some norms, such as establishing the de-facto 2 terms (until FDR and WWII ruined it and required the 22nd amendment), ‘Mr.President’, and a cabinet. But, I ask you, would not any Founding Father chosen have established norms? Aside from a man of no party, would not have Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, and possibly others been able to equally establish a better government after the failed Articles of Confederation? Don’t get me wrong, I love Washington. But I see him more as a general who helped us gain our freedom, than a politician that helped us establish and keep it.
Teddy Roosevelt
FDR