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I believe Obama is too recent to be ranked.
I also didn’t exclude anybody because of Rule 3, I just genuinely don’t think we’re far enough removed from their tenures to form good historical outlooks. Anybody beyond W. Bush can’t be accurately rated, in my opinion.
I think “W” should probably have been left off the list too for the same reasons. For example, the Iraqi government and people have requested that the United States withdraw from their territories. If that happens, he should go from a D to an -F considering the shameful amount of wasted life, loss of prestige influence and strategic aims in the region, not to mention the loss of money and the opportunity costs associated with that loss.
My favorite Eisenhower quote:
“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.”
Honestly, agree with including Obama in rankings. However, I don't feel like he should be completely Rule 3'ed as he's much less divisive in this sub than others...
Decent, I would probably only switch some people up a tier or down a tier (little things) but the only one I think should be moved up is Franklin Pierce but it's common that a lot of people don't see the goods in him. All around fair.
Can you provide some reasoning why JFK deserves a B though? Other than formation of the Peace Corps, he didn't have any major domestic legislation that he was directly responsible for.
Internationally, he was a mixed bag with the Cold War and the Bay of Pigs invasion.
I'm not knocking JFK, I just think he's a tier too high
That event would make JFK part of the D tier. It was a huge escalation of tension during the Cold War and the closest the country came to war.
I think OP's B Tier recognizes JFK more as a cultural icon than for what he actually achieved during his presidency. I personally think JFK should be bottom of the C tier, just barely above D
Bottom three is crazy absurd. He was major in forming today's economy and foreign policy. No amount of cope or ignoring his positives makes him bottom 3.
It’s what he chose to do with that status that makes him that more respectable. Firing MacArthur because he was dicks out for nukes and choosing to only use nuclear weapons for the sake of saving more lives than those that had been taken in the aftermath deserves a lot of appreciation. He also desegregated the armed forces, helped the US become involved with NATO and the UN, and had some huge highs for foreign policy.
The Marshall Plan provided aid for the recovering countries of Japan and Germany, helping make them our allies to this day. Berlin Airlift was another achievement during the Cold War which minimized fighting with the USSR. He denounced McCarthyism and was against the Red Scare, and recognized Israel as an independent nation (which while controversial today, was great for the time considering the Jews were just coming out of the Holocaust).
There’s plenty of negatives as well, the Korean War, corruption in his administration, and parts of the Truman Doctrine helped pave the way for Vietnam.
Overall though, he gets a lot of credit because he was an ordinary guy thrust into a complex time in the world (he knew jack shit as Vice President, like he was not even told of Manhattan Project until he inherited the Presidency). He was someone who had to make some of the most challenging decisions anyone could ever make, and came out on top mostly, with the nation first and foremost consistently. I personally think he’s top 5 Presidents of all time, and doesn’t deserve anything worse than top 10.
Side note, but he was also funny as hell. Compared the White House to a whorehouse, called Oppenheimer a “fucking cretin” and said this of MacArthur…
“I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President ... I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.”
I can see where you’re coming from, but you gotta take into account that every president had flaws. Washington and Jefferson arguably were some of the only Americans who had the opportunity to unite Americans against slavery, but chose to hold onto their slaves for the rest of their lives, and Lincoln took ages to get a competent general to lead the advantaged side militarily, costing needless lives. FDR also had internment camps, I don’t think that needs any further explanation.
I’d also put his inexperience in his favor, as there’s certainly a lot worse leaders with little to no executive experience; and being a fairly average guy with all the power of the world could be disastrous, but he held his own pretty well.
I really admire a lot of Truman’s domestic policies, but I’m a big opponent of his decision to utilize atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, especially considering their rather high population of noncombatant civilians. I’ve always thought the option of a naval blockade should have been more heavily considered, and that the bombs were chosen more as an intimidation tactic against the Soviets in anticipation of the Cold War.
But that’s just my own personal reservation about him. I respect your rating of him.
While I disagree on account of some other negatives of his legacy (sabotaging Vietnam peace talks in 1968 comes to mind), I am aware of his other achievements.
But the “without Watergate” defense for Nixon is just not valid. We cannot simply disregard a defining moment of his presidency in judging it. His accolades don’t make up for such an open attack on American democracy.
Reagan is too low. B at the very least. Letting Paul Volker cook helped end the stagflation that continued on from the 70s. Navigating the end of the Cold War deserves more points than this sub wants to admit. There’s plenty to criticize but this sub putting him in the C/D tier is not being objective to the reality of his presidency.
Having HW and Reagan in the same tier is objectively wrong. Which one you like more is subjective but one of them is above the other no matter what viewpoint you look at it from.
Disagree with Hoover being an F with Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson, definitely don’t think he is on the same level with them. Otherwise no big disagreements.
He signed the thing that sent people out of their homeland of hundreds to thousands of years, commuted a cultural genocide, and generally fucked over the Native American population. What part of what I said is slander
Decent list. Personally would bump TR up to S and FDR down to A. And you’ve been way too generous to LBJ. I don’t understand the LBJ nut-hugging on this sub.
Kennedy gotta be in S++++++ tier, only reason we are all alive today and not living in a fallout 76 type of world.
Outside of that, generally agreeable list.
Andrew Jackson should be down with the worst. People- please remember The Trail of Tears. I appreciate all the goodness America has done and can still do but we cannot gloss over what was done to Native Americans. This was/is their land. They almost never get the respect that they deserve.
Yup, another underrated accomplishment. He believed if the government was in debt then Americans were in debt, mainly to European bankers. He thought elected officials had a fiduciary responsibility to the electorate.
He set up the foundations for the cood war which still has its reprucussions pllaying out. Plus i believe TR was better as well as jefferson. Fdr is probablly 5 in my opinion
How did FDR set the stage for the Cold War? He actually improved relations with the Soviet Union, recognizing the USSR in exchange for an end to the dissemination of Soviet propaganda within US borders.
By not standing up to the soviets during the yalta conference. Iirc, churchill wanted a firmer stance, but fdr didnt support this, which let eastern europe stay in the soviet sphere for the next 50 years.
Also, recognizing them in the first place was an error imo, as we did it for economic reasons and to try to weaken japan, which it did neither.
Trickle down economics and his minimum wage policies crippled the minimum class. Then he blamed “lack of productivity”.
He blamed the homeless and drug addicts for furthering aids and being in their positions again because of “lack of productivity”.
He was simply lazy and chose to blame people rather than fix his economic issues.
I didn’t realize we were discussing Carter. I only brought up Reagan. If you can’t stick to this subject I challenge to what extent you can defend yourself.
again i said i wasn't that big a fan of his economic polices and i was talkin about FDR you brought up Reagan as he is my flair so i talk about the president you have as your flair
If you aren’t a fan of his economic policies why are you defending them. You were talking about economics so I brought up Reagan because he is exceedingly relevant. You brought up carter because you were unable to come up with a genuine response.
Normie cringe honestly. Your S tier is populated by a tyrant that put down a separatist rebellion, a communist that got the US into another European war, and a tyrant who put down a tax rebellion.
Kennedy and Truman too high. Nixon too low. Watergate really overshadowed his accomplishments. Sad because he basically just got caught doing the same shady stuff they all get up to
His easing of tension with China has been disastrous for the United States manufacturing. Arguably his removal of the gold standard has led to overall devaluation of the dollar.
Overall I’d say I agree for the most part, although I’d switch HW and Kennedy as I mean seriously, the man didn’t do a whole lot before he died if we’re being real.
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Where is Obama?
I believe Obama is too recent to be ranked. I also didn’t exclude anybody because of Rule 3, I just genuinely don’t think we’re far enough removed from their tenures to form good historical outlooks. Anybody beyond W. Bush can’t be accurately rated, in my opinion.
I think “W” should probably have been left off the list too for the same reasons. For example, the Iraqi government and people have requested that the United States withdraw from their territories. If that happens, he should go from a D to an -F considering the shameful amount of wasted life, loss of prestige influence and strategic aims in the region, not to mention the loss of money and the opportunity costs associated with that loss. My favorite Eisenhower quote: “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.”
Based
Honestly, agree with including Obama in rankings. However, I don't feel like he should be completely Rule 3'ed as he's much less divisive in this sub than others...
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I’ll put him at #7.
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🤦🏼♂️
Use your eyes and try again
Hes on of those haters
Decent, I would probably only switch some people up a tier or down a tier (little things) but the only one I think should be moved up is Franklin Pierce but it's common that a lot of people don't see the goods in him. All around fair.
He lost. His party’s. Nomination.
Yeah... Would've been better than Buchanan though.
I actually like this list
Love the fact you didn’t include any of the most recent ones. Respect.
Wow! This tierlist is actually good!
Can you provide some reasoning why JFK deserves a B though? Other than formation of the Peace Corps, he didn't have any major domestic legislation that he was directly responsible for. Internationally, he was a mixed bag with the Cold War and the Bay of Pigs invasion. I'm not knocking JFK, I just think he's a tier too high
Cuban Missile Crisis
That event would make JFK part of the D tier. It was a huge escalation of tension during the Cold War and the closest the country came to war. I think OP's B Tier recognizes JFK more as a cultural icon than for what he actually achieved during his presidency. I personally think JFK should be bottom of the C tier, just barely above D
Now that I look at where JFK is placed specifically, I do agree with you, he does seem to be placed too high.
Teddy not being s tier is a crime
Taylor way too low. Putting him beneath Fillmore is blasphemy.
I honestly meant to put Taylor above Fillmore. As it sits is blasphemy for certain. Apologies.
W for not considering Wilson literally one of the worst presidents ever
Honestly we’ll take C at this point just please not F 😭
Wilson is bottom three, idk what political affiliation or perspective one could possibly be arguing from to not recognize him as absolute dogshit
Probably just a rational one.
L
You're right. The palmer raids were fine. So was the fed
Yeah, the Fed is great unironically. Wilson was amazing.
Bottom three is crazy absurd. He was major in forming today's economy and foreign policy. No amount of cope or ignoring his positives makes him bottom 3.
Why’s Hoover in F? He wasn’t a good president, but on par with Johnson?
I think the problem is that Andrew Johnson needs his own category in hell haha
Obama didn’t get a spot?
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Obunga is rule 3 bum
Other than the Coolidge placement, this is a very respectable and based list, very good.
This is the best list I’ve seen in a while, but I won’t stand for this Gerald Ford slander
Agree with all tbh, except Truman who should be A imo but that’s the only one lol
Why does everybody love Truman so much?
Most powerful human being ever. He was president while we were the only country with nukes.
But so what?
It’s what he chose to do with that status that makes him that more respectable. Firing MacArthur because he was dicks out for nukes and choosing to only use nuclear weapons for the sake of saving more lives than those that had been taken in the aftermath deserves a lot of appreciation. He also desegregated the armed forces, helped the US become involved with NATO and the UN, and had some huge highs for foreign policy. The Marshall Plan provided aid for the recovering countries of Japan and Germany, helping make them our allies to this day. Berlin Airlift was another achievement during the Cold War which minimized fighting with the USSR. He denounced McCarthyism and was against the Red Scare, and recognized Israel as an independent nation (which while controversial today, was great for the time considering the Jews were just coming out of the Holocaust). There’s plenty of negatives as well, the Korean War, corruption in his administration, and parts of the Truman Doctrine helped pave the way for Vietnam. Overall though, he gets a lot of credit because he was an ordinary guy thrust into a complex time in the world (he knew jack shit as Vice President, like he was not even told of Manhattan Project until he inherited the Presidency). He was someone who had to make some of the most challenging decisions anyone could ever make, and came out on top mostly, with the nation first and foremost consistently. I personally think he’s top 5 Presidents of all time, and doesn’t deserve anything worse than top 10. Side note, but he was also funny as hell. Compared the White House to a whorehouse, called Oppenheimer a “fucking cretin” and said this of MacArthur… “I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President ... I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. If it was, half to three-quarters of them would be in jail.”
I don’t think he’s top 10 material. He’s too inexperienced and was flawed. His presidency felt like he did good things but was overall pretty average
I can see where you’re coming from, but you gotta take into account that every president had flaws. Washington and Jefferson arguably were some of the only Americans who had the opportunity to unite Americans against slavery, but chose to hold onto their slaves for the rest of their lives, and Lincoln took ages to get a competent general to lead the advantaged side militarily, costing needless lives. FDR also had internment camps, I don’t think that needs any further explanation. I’d also put his inexperience in his favor, as there’s certainly a lot worse leaders with little to no executive experience; and being a fairly average guy with all the power of the world could be disastrous, but he held his own pretty well.
I get that but I just think there have been better presidents
If you don’t mind me asking, who would you place ahead of him?
Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, Teddy, JFK, Eisenhower, LBJ, Carter, Obama, and others
Reagan’s a D at best and George senior could be a b imo Otherwise pretty good
reagan was F tier. all of our problems rn date back to that moron.
I mean, not *all* of them, give Tricky Dick some credit too
Yeah, like approximately 28,000 guys who died in Vietnam after Nixon's "behind the back" treasonous antics with the North Vietnamese.
Exactly
Truman in B is interesting. Personally I think he's s tier above FDR if anything but I'd like to hear why you think he's only b tier.
I really admire a lot of Truman’s domestic policies, but I’m a big opponent of his decision to utilize atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, especially considering their rather high population of noncombatant civilians. I’ve always thought the option of a naval blockade should have been more heavily considered, and that the bombs were chosen more as an intimidation tactic against the Soviets in anticipation of the Cold War. But that’s just my own personal reservation about him. I respect your rating of him.
Eisenhower is too high up for my liking
Nixon is a funny one, because he would unironically be a very strong B tier president without watergate.
While I disagree on account of some other negatives of his legacy (sabotaging Vietnam peace talks in 1968 comes to mind), I am aware of his other achievements. But the “without Watergate” defense for Nixon is just not valid. We cannot simply disregard a defining moment of his presidency in judging it. His accolades don’t make up for such an open attack on American democracy.
I agree, much like I do for a certain other president that rule 3 prevents us from getting into depth on.
Reagan is too low. B at the very least. Letting Paul Volker cook helped end the stagflation that continued on from the 70s. Navigating the end of the Cold War deserves more points than this sub wants to admit. There’s plenty to criticize but this sub putting him in the C/D tier is not being objective to the reality of his presidency.
This is Reddit. Get on the hate Reagan bandwagon or beat it! /s
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I think the problem is that Andrew Johnson needs his own category in hell haha Edit: replied to wrong comment my bad lol
Curious, why did Fillmore escape your F tier?
Again, Reagan not getting the recognition experts have said he deserves.
Having HW and Reagan in the same tier is objectively wrong. Which one you like more is subjective but one of them is above the other no matter what viewpoint you look at it from.
Having Kennedy is B tier is pretty funny too.
Disagree with Hoover being an F with Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson, definitely don’t think he is on the same level with them. Otherwise no big disagreements.
Typical underrating of Andrew Jackson lol
Van buren not in C is a crime
Van Buren is F tier. Brought to you by Harrison patriots.
Zachary Taylor is f tier what the fuck did he do?
Threaten to hang his son-in-law Jefferson Davis (immediate A Tier behavior)
He signed the Native American removal act just to name one
Zachary Taylor didn’t sign the Native American removal act tho
My bad I misread something and thought he was still talking about van buren
That’s a bad thing Zachary Taylor bad then
He didn’t lol.
Ah I meant to respond to you saying van Buren is c; I’ll fix it
He signed the Native American removal act
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Straight up promoting the genocide. I really hope you’re joking, and even then, not cool.
I dislike slander of van buren
He signed the thing that sent people out of their homeland of hundreds to thousands of years, commuted a cultural genocide, and generally fucked over the Native American population. What part of what I said is slander
He’s a handsome and smart individual
Handsome, Yes. Smart, yes. Good, unlikely but possible. Beneficial to the country in a long lasting way, not really.
He had his good things
Calm down buddy.
Love me or hate me but I vote Obama highly.
Hell yeah brother! All time presidential record for most bombs dropped on desolate people in the middle east! Most deportations too! 🤙
For bombing and spying to win a peace prize?
I gotta disagree with putting JFK above Polk. Also it's sad Carter is ner the bottom. I love the guy, he a great dude but a terrible president
He was a great president
As always, I will claim Ike is overrated, but otherwise not bad
Everything is perfect… except make HW Bush and A tier. I want Reagan higher but I won’t be that guy on this subreddit. I do like HW Bush, though.
Reagan is awful
Hence why I didn’t want to say bring him up a few notches. Nice tag.
Whole bunch of war criminals on the upper half of the ranking. Never change, reddit. Never change 😂
Clinton at C is wild until I noticed mr watergate himself at D but Bush being even worse than Nixon is a clown take imo.
Decent list. Personally would bump TR up to S and FDR down to A. And you’ve been way too generous to LBJ. I don’t understand the LBJ nut-hugging on this sub.
Kennedy gotta be in S++++++ tier, only reason we are all alive today and not living in a fallout 76 type of world. Outside of that, generally agreeable list.
FDR at S is crazy
Andrew Jackson should be down with the worst. People- please remember The Trail of Tears. I appreciate all the goodness America has done and can still do but we cannot gloss over what was done to Native Americans. This was/is their land. They almost never get the respect that they deserve.
See the Nullification Crisis and expanding democracy to non landowning white men (not perfect but it was a major step)
Not to mention that Andrew Jackson eliminated the national debt.
Yup, another underrated accomplishment. He believed if the government was in debt then Americans were in debt, mainly to European bankers. He thought elected officials had a fiduciary responsibility to the electorate.
> expanding democracy to non landowning white men is this supposed to be considered in favor or against?
In favor because before that you had to own land to vote
Womp womp
Why is Bill Clinton in C tier?
Because he belongs in c tier (imo anyway)
What is this a list of?
Overrated Wilson detected, opinion rejected
Nixon and W, two of the biggest presidential criminals, are in the same tier as Jimmy Carter? This sub is a frikkin' joke.
Ill say it, fdr is overrated. Crucify me. Hes good but not top 3 good.
Why not? I'm curious to see your reasons.
He set up the foundations for the cood war which still has its reprucussions pllaying out. Plus i believe TR was better as well as jefferson. Fdr is probablly 5 in my opinion
How did FDR set the stage for the Cold War? He actually improved relations with the Soviet Union, recognizing the USSR in exchange for an end to the dissemination of Soviet propaganda within US borders.
By not standing up to the soviets during the yalta conference. Iirc, churchill wanted a firmer stance, but fdr didnt support this, which let eastern europe stay in the soviet sphere for the next 50 years. Also, recognizing them in the first place was an error imo, as we did it for economic reasons and to try to weaken japan, which it did neither.
anyone putting FDR in S either loves the great depression or fundamentally don't know how economics work
You’re a Ronald reagan supporter saying you know how economics work?
i'm not super in favor of trickle down economics but i adore his social policies. was the economy great under Carter?
Trickle down doesn’t work. His social policies also didn’t work. He failed us with aids. He blamed everybody for issues he caused.
could you give an excample of "issues he caused" that he blamed everybody for? and again was the economy great under Carter?
Trickle down economics and his minimum wage policies crippled the minimum class. Then he blamed “lack of productivity”. He blamed the homeless and drug addicts for furthering aids and being in their positions again because of “lack of productivity”. He was simply lazy and chose to blame people rather than fix his economic issues. I didn’t realize we were discussing Carter. I only brought up Reagan. If you can’t stick to this subject I challenge to what extent you can defend yourself.
again i said i wasn't that big a fan of his economic polices and i was talkin about FDR you brought up Reagan as he is my flair so i talk about the president you have as your flair
If you aren’t a fan of his economic policies why are you defending them. You were talking about economics so I brought up Reagan because he is exceedingly relevant. You brought up carter because you were unable to come up with a genuine response.
name one time i defended his economic polices i'm simply responding to you
“Was the economy great under carter” the subtext speaks for itself. His social policies were just as bad, though.
I’m interested to hear your reasoning on this take. I’m always open to different opinions and interpretations of historical events.
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/421169?seq=1](https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/421169?seq=1)
Normie cringe honestly. Your S tier is populated by a tyrant that put down a separatist rebellion, a communist that got the US into another European war, and a tyrant who put down a tax rebellion.
The deepthroating this platform does to fdr is astounding. I know it's reddit, aka npc mecca, but *still*
Between FDR, Lincoln, and grant there’s more tonguing here than a gay orgy.
Why is Truman so high on your ranking?
Low B is lower than usual though
Why though?
Because people really like him and the stuff he did. Most put him in S or A.
Nixon down one, George W up one.
Give Coolidge a D, Grant a C. And Harding an F. Then you are close to spot-on. Good start though.
No way Jackson is that low
W is a little low I think. He had great moments and poor moments. But D is rough he’s more of a C
Kennedy and Truman too high. Nixon too low. Watergate really overshadowed his accomplishments. Sad because he basically just got caught doing the same shady stuff they all get up to
His easing of tension with China has been disastrous for the United States manufacturing. Arguably his removal of the gold standard has led to overall devaluation of the dollar.
Overall I’d say I agree for the most part, although I’d switch HW and Kennedy as I mean seriously, the man didn’t do a whole lot before he died if we’re being real.
Still think Pierce is judged too unfairly by this sub.
Ford my glorious king in D :(
It was so good until Carter. I would move him up to C. Otherwise, I basically agree
jFK should be A and Clinton B