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If my relatives who were alive during his administration are any indication, he served at a time that it was EXTREMELY frowned upon to speak ill of the dead.
My mom vividly remembers her mom talking to her about how he "deserved respect whether we agree with him or not".
Had he lived through his term, history might have remembered him differently.
My relatives who were alive during his administration were Catholics from Massachusetts. They had framed pictures of JFK and the Pope on their wall. Apparently this was quite common in certain Catholic households in Massachusetts at the time.
History is already exposing things about him. There's a story that one day at the Kennedy compound, Jack came running in right past the family to his room upstairs with a girl in tow. His father said, "I should have had that one gelded."
I think he was a good president. I think after the last person alive on that most horrible of days has passed, that more honest, realistic appraisals of his presidency
will be written. I am forever scarred by what a horrible little man did on that horrible day in Dallas. I can not get past it, and I will take it with me when I die.
I think that's a really good, pithy way to describe the problem with him. He was mostly competent, with the help of a solid staff for the period, but was far from a brilliant leader or strategist. Frankly, if he wasn't propped up by his staff and a mountain of drug cocktails to keep him lucid, it could have been a very different story.
its the myth, largely initiated by his aides like Arthur Scheslinger and his widow, that the Kennedy years where this height of American culture and success, this young idealistic president ready to change the world for good and peace.
In reality, Kennedy was a womanizer and constantly popping pain killers to deal with his back injury and Addison's disease, his administration bogged down in dealing both with the Soviets and civil rights.
That's not to say he didn't have his pluses, but he wasn't what they try to tell us it was.
Definitely. I’d say mid 1990s was the best time. Broadened and protected civil and equal rights, and aside from some issues, it was a good time to be alive
Contrast 1960 - 1963 to baggy pants, drab old men in politics up to that time or at least throughout the 50's.
The Kennedy's (Jack & Jackie) were that breath of Spring and hope and challenge and style that lifted the nation into a new age. I was a kid and was swept up in it. I said in another response here that until we are all gone, all who experienced the horror of 11/22/63, until we have passed and taken that date with us, an honest appraisal of the Kennedy years cannot be written.
If you weren't there, you will never understand.
We can actually, it's been long enough, objectively it wasn't that good regardless of personal lens, also I never thought early 60s were that different from the 50s
He didn't. The reason there was no nuclear war during Cuban Crisis was because Vasily Arhipov (one of Soviet naval officers) refused to follow orders and launch nuclear torpedos. Kennedy had nothing to do with it.
Such a strategic win that it destroyed Kruschev’s domestic credibility leading to his removal 12 months later and was widely viewed in the world’s eyes as an embarrassment for the Soviets.
He did. The Joint Chiefs recommended invading Cuba. What they didn’t know was that there were tactical nuclear weapons already in Cuba, which would have surely been used in response to an invasion.
For sure one of the best but definitely overrated for the time spent in office even if it wasn’t his choice to get shot in the head. I’m sure if he wasn’t shot a lot would’ve been different now
Remarkably overrated. I really don't understand why there's so much "Oh the Cuban Missile Crisis" given all the information we have now, plus the fact that he's the one who started it, so there never should have been a crisis.
I do think so. The Missile Crisis never should have happened. Bay of Pigs was a botch job, and expectedly so. The invasion moved forward without the air and naval support deemed necessary by the CIA for a successful operation because Kennedy feared the international response.
Kennedy gets the Vietnam War too. No, Ike didn’t start the war by sending a few advisors and military aid.
And how come he gets credit for civil rights? Two of those bills were Ike’s and the other was Johnson!
So I mean I’m biased, but it feels like he has a lot of bad shit, and people just kind of push that bad shit over to Ike because they don’t want to admit it.
>Kennedy gets the Vietnam War too. No, Ike didn’t start the war by sending a few advisors and military aid.
Kennedy did the same thing Ike did, so Ike started the Vietnam War
Also, Ike did a bunch of coups around the world that we're still having problems with today, Iran for one
Kennedy did have 23x more personnel there than did Ike, but point taken. Can we settle on Johnson?
Iran is a separate topic that I will argue with you one day in a more appropriate thread. He made the right call.
>Can we settle on Johnson?
Considering the war started with Gulf of Tonkin, I don't see any other option
>Iran is a separate topic that I will argue with you one day in a more appropriate thread. He made the right call.
We'll probably agree that it was the easier move at the time, but with hindsight I think we can appreciate the negative unforeseen consequences
Briefly, the Soviets had a friendly occupation of Iran during WW2 and did not immediately leave, creating two communist states within Iran’s borders. The Tudeh Party still held considerable influence as evidenced by the Soviet mobilized assassination attempt on the Shah in 1949.
The intelligence indicated that a Tudeh coup against Mosaddegh was imminent. The original operation was merely a raid on the Tudeh. It was amended to topple Mosaddegh to avoid the possibility of consolidation by the Tudeh or the Islamic Fundamentalists that had whacked out the previous prime minister.
And not for nothing, an awful lot of time passed in between this and the Islamic Revolution. We don’t blame Wilson for the Nazis, so why do we blame Ike for the Ayatollah? He left us with a stable ally in the region for decades. A lot of things happened between this and the revolution as well. Carter’s forced liberalization was terribly misguided and placed the Shah in a precarious position.
With rare exceptions like North Korea and Cuba, all those states that the Soviets occupied are American allies now. Ike's thinking was short term and reactionary. He failed to understand the weaknesses of communism
We’ve gone from “negative unforeseen consequences,” to “failed to understand the weakness of communism,” to “Iranian diaspora.” It’s clear you are stuck in your position, but can’t decide why. You should open your mind
Kennedy approved Operation Barrel Roll which was the bombing of Laos. He authorized the first direct use of force in the war.
Edited: accidentally said Cambodia, not Laos.
Coming right out of an unprecedented national tragedy though. Was Kennedy's 70% the direct result of a singular incident, or just by virtue of how people deemed his performance up to that point?
LBJ got the laws passed that Kennedy couldn’t. And he expanded the scope of the proposed civil rights bills. LBJ was more effective than Kennedy because he did what Kennedy couldn’t. I think LBJ could’ve passed those laws without the assassination, but I’m not sure LBJ would’ve been elected without JFK.
the narrative ive seen a number of times is that he used Kennedy's legacy to help with the brow beating.
From experience I can't tell you how fast someone will give you a discount when they find out your wife has cancer.
The only reason LBJ got those things passed was because of the assassination of the President which generated overwhelming good will for JFK’s program.
Any president could have gotten things past after a tragedy like that .
>The only reason LBJ got those things passed was because of the assassination of the President
Yeah, if you ignore the rest of his political connections and concessions...but go off, I guess...
Unpopular opinion here- while I respect JFK I can't get over the fact that daddy Kennedy made millions selling booze via prescriptions during prohibition. Not to mention the millions more from insider trading. Then his kids get into politics and start cracking down on organized crime and closing market loop holes. I guess it's the American Dream really. I won't powershame.
My family is Irish from Central Mass, and my off-the-boat century old great grandmother HATED the Kennedys.
“The old man was a bootlegger!” She used to say.
I'm all for bootleggers. I would have been on that side. However, I wouldn't have ran for office under the smoke and mirrors of fabricated morality. He and his brother banged Marilyn at the same time (again, I'd be right there high fiven) while they were married. Once Robert was US Attorney he went so hard against other organized crime families. Gotta make sure other people can't do what they did. He was a rat. But hey, I'm a fan of history, and the family. I just call it as I see it.
Was your family an anomaly amongst Mass. Irish people or is there a surprising amount of Massachusetts Irish that didn’t like the Kennedys? Just curious? I’ve studied a lot before on ethnic sociology PS Happy Birthday!
I wasn’t around myself during Kennedy, but I would say it might surprise you. This is even though obviously the vast majority are democrats and do like them. But from what I gathered, most of their problems seemed to be with the father and JFK would take some collateral damage.
As a separate point, the Democrats had the Irish vote sewn up long before Kennedy.
Nay nay, I'm adamantly against such legislation. In fact, I believe most drugs should be decriminalized. To be frank, I myself made money from America's barbaric cannabis laws. All I'm saying is I don't buy anyone's bs about the Kennedy family.
>I respect JFK I can't get over the fact that daddy Kennedy made millions selling booze via prescriptions during prohibition
Um bro, smuggling alcohol into the US during Prohibition is heroic. Kennedys are Irish so they know a bad law when they see one and respond appropriately
I'm talking about the crackdown on organized crime in general. The Kennedys made their money due to terrible laws then once in office they closed those loop holes and cracked down on other people taking the same advantage of similar laws. That's all. I said what i said. It's hypocrisy and they pretended they weren't licentious hounds like the rest of us. What are you on about?
A presidency is in large part the cultivation of an illusion of how Americans want to view themselves. With JFK, the illusion was youth and hopefulness for the future. “To land man on the moon before the end of the decade”, for example. That was his brand. In that regard, he was most definitely not overrated.
Very fair question though to ask what he accomplished policy-wise. In my opinion, his death wiped out any possibility of his brand morphing into *anything* politically substantive, so he will always be judged by the comparative shallowness of Camelot.
Foreign policy is rough: Cuba, USSR, Vietnam. All generally seen as errors today.
Domestically: NASA, starting CRA but nothing that he passed or implemented.
Personally: lots of ick around women.
But: he was especially charismatic and he was violently assassinated at a young age, relatively.
Yes. I explained under other question in this subreddit, why:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1do6rce/comment/la7n1e4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1do6rce/comment/la7n1e4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Nah I don’t think he’s overrated. Sure he was only in office for about 3 years, but for the most part what he accomplished and set in motion was good. I think most people would say JFK was a good president but not a top tier president and I think that’s a fair assessment.
I feel he’s kinda underrated tbh. He doesn’t get nearly the credit he deserves for getting the ball rolling on the legislative level for the civil rights movement. Had he lived he would’ve been the one getting the credit for getting those bills passed. And I think he would’ve done it better tbh. They would’ve been more functional and we wouldn’t have such a racial divide today because of it.
Not necessarily overrated but rather unfinished and incredibly over romanticized. His facade was a good one. A younger man, from the northeast. A man from money with influence in political circles going back three generations. On the inside he was a chronic womanizer, alcoholic, addicted to Cuban cigars, and had addisons disease, on top of other ailments
His list of ACTUAL accomplishments is pretty scant:
Raised minimum wage. Alliance for Progress. Peace Corps. Expressed support for Civil Rights.
His also didn't end the world during the Cuban Crisis.
But like Reagan, people remember how presidents made them FEEL. That's harder to quantify. I do feel like he's over-hyped for sure.
I would call it “incomplete” for obvious reasons. When some dies, we tend to look at most of the good things. We don’t know how another 5 years would have been with him.
Yes, and overwhelmingly obviously so.
That doesn't mean you have to dislike him or his policies, but people have a crush on him, he could be objectively one of the worst people to hold the off9ce and people would still claim him as one of the best.
Not at all:
- Proposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964
- Signed the Equal Pay Act
- Negotiated the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
- Sent food aid to millions of starving people across the globe (George McGovern, the Democratic nominee in 1972, became famous from his work with JFK on this project)
- Diffused the Cuban Missile Crisis
- Provided a new bus to the Freedom Riders after their vehicle was destroyed in a racist riot
- Supported the 24th Amendment banning poll taxes
- Raised the minimum wage
- Boosted NASA spending and helped pave the a for the Moon Landings
- Cut off aid to the dictator Ngo Dinh Diem
- Founded the Peace Corps
- Created a committee to crack down on racial discrimination in employment practices
He didn’t achieve much legislatively and for that reason many people consider him overrated. A better and more fair way to appraise him is being unfulfilled potential because of his assassination rather than overrated. Because there is no telling what he might have accomplished if he had not been assassinated before finishing his term - he was a wildly popular president who averaged 70% public approval while in office (basically impossible to imagine now) and he used the moral authority and platform of the presidency to build support for racial equality and the creative arts at a time when America was amassing crazy amounts of cultural power globally.
Other than the Cuban Missile crisis it feels like Boomers attributed most of LBJs accomplishments to Kennedy while tarring Johnson with all of both Kennedy's failures and his own.
When we compare Kennedy as a politician to the democrats who came after him, Kennedy was more articulate and acted more like a leader. His presidency was too short, so it is hard to compare him to other Presidents. Kennedy basically continued the policies of his predecessor, Eisenhower, except that Kennedy lowered the highest tax rate on the rich from 90% to 70%. This began the long unwinding of FDR's policies, which would culminate with Reagan lowering the tax rate of the wealthy to below that of middle-class taxpayers. Vice President Johnson convinced Kennedy to initiate a moon landing program, which Kennedy saw as a purely political endeavor. Kennedy had he lived, would not have widened the Vietnam War. Certainly, Kennedy put a stop to supporting an absurd private invasion of Cuba, the Bay of Pigs, financed by wealthy oil barons in Texas. Kennedy's administration, especially AG Bobby Kennedy, tried to break the back of organized crime in the US.
I read this great transcript about LBJ from the Kennedy Center and it said once, "JFK inspired, LBJ delivered." He talked a big great talk, and his death was useful insofar is that it was able to get the legislation he was pushing for into law, with the downside of him being dead. Without his death, LBJ probably doesn't have the political capital to get it onto JFK's desk.
He promised to put us in the Moon by the end of the decade, thought not until delegating the responsibility of finding out if that was possible to early NASA supporter... LBJ.
He handled the Cuban Missile Crisis pretty well, and that's pretty neat.
His role in Vietnam is mostly ignored, and you always hear stories about how right before his death he changed his mind and was going to do everything perfectly... :-: I don't buy it.
Overall, yeah, probably, he's still in the top third of presidents by my ranking, because he talked a great big talk.
I dont think so. The power of JFK was always in his vision and embracing the possibilities. I am not sure we have ever seen a president who was that inspirational.
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s very true. LBJ did more than the first two civil rights bills for the country.
I always liked Horace Busby’s take on LBJ during a Kennedy dinner in New York. LBJ was sitting at a table and “trying to engage with New York socialites who had no idea what the term ‘appropriation’ meant”. And thus, you have why JFK remains so popular (could connect with anyone) while never really achieving anything of significant importance during his presidency.
NASA started in 1958 after Eisenhower, and moon landing was in 1969 under Nixon. Kennedy was just a part of it
And Cuban Missile Crisis didn't escale, not because of Kennedy, but because of one Soviet naval officer, that refused to follow orders and use nuclear torpedos.
Yeah, but the increased budget and attention to NASA also allowed greater research on missile technology along with the rocketry research. This helped us compete against the USSR better. The "Missile Gap" was not in numbers, but in keeping pace and moving ahead with research and technology in ways to keep us safer.
Would Nixon follow the same path if he was elected president in 1960? Im pretty sure he would, as NASA was widely popular, and there was a consensus about it.
Nixon had only been in office for about 5 months when the Moon Landing occurred. Hard to give him credit for this. Johnson was much more responsible for this happening. Also, you have to agree that JFK inspired an entire generation with his Space initiatives and plans.
edit: add word for clarity
Really? He gave up US positions in Turkey and Greece to get the Russians to back down. It was a strategic win for Russia. They accomplished their objectives, the US did not.
Not really. Maybe with the public at large, but in the historical reckoning 10th, as he currently stands, feels fine. Looking at the Presidents ranked below him I only see a handful, looking at you Grant, that I'd bump up passed him.
Yes, overrated.
His legislative record for his short time is dramatically inferior to that of his immediate predecessors and successors in the New Deal Era. Even considering his 2.3 years in office, it's really lackluster.
In terms of Foreign Policy, JFK of course really fumbled the bag by making an enemy out of Cuba 90 miles off our coast, rather than taking a diplomatic approach like Nixon did with China. As a result, Cuba was eager to house USSR nuclear missiles, which we can blame Eisenhower for putting nukes in Turkey provoking the USSR to want to respond in kind.
USSR began trying to put the nukes in Cuba. But JFK and the USA escalated these tensions by blockading Cuba to try to stop it, bringing us to the brink of Nuclear War. It is my opinion that JFK was wrong to blockade Cuba for trying to do something we had already done in Turkey. It is my opinion that JFK caused the Cuban Missile Crisis by being unwilling to accept that Nukes would be housed in Cuba, and being unwilling to negotiate for no nukes in Cuba in exchange for no nukes within 300 miles of the USSR border, or some kind of equivalent deal.
Conclusion: he didn't accomplish very much legislatively. His actions needlessly and inappropriately brought us to the brink of Global Thermonuclear War. He is a D-tier President.
Yes. He is quite overrated, although this sub seems to show more restraint in its praise. I like JFK, but I’ve seen people put him in their top 5, which I just can’t understand.
Thank you. Not only did he probably fall short of the votes, the Russians ran ad campaigns in the US to bolster his support because they feared Nixon would be a continuation of Ike, whom they feared.
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Not overrated, but over-romanticized
Good take
Perhaps because he was arguably one of the greatest orators of the 20th century. Rivaled by MLK for sure
Well, there’s Hitler I guess.
If my relatives who were alive during his administration are any indication, he served at a time that it was EXTREMELY frowned upon to speak ill of the dead. My mom vividly remembers her mom talking to her about how he "deserved respect whether we agree with him or not". Had he lived through his term, history might have remembered him differently.
My relatives who were alive during his administration were Catholics from Massachusetts. They had framed pictures of JFK and the Pope on their wall. Apparently this was quite common in certain Catholic households in Massachusetts at the time.
History is already exposing things about him. There's a story that one day at the Kennedy compound, Jack came running in right past the family to his room upstairs with a girl in tow. His father said, "I should have had that one gelded." I think he was a good president. I think after the last person alive on that most horrible of days has passed, that more honest, realistic appraisals of his presidency will be written. I am forever scarred by what a horrible little man did on that horrible day in Dallas. I can not get past it, and I will take it with me when I die.
Good way of putting it
I think that's a really good, pithy way to describe the problem with him. He was mostly competent, with the help of a solid staff for the period, but was far from a brilliant leader or strategist. Frankly, if he wasn't propped up by his staff and a mountain of drug cocktails to keep him lucid, it could have been a very different story.
Bro he took a bullet for the country
No, he's overrated too. People just feel bad for him bc he got the gravy knocked out his biscuit.
This wild 😂
He's not overrated, he's unfinished. 2 years just isn't enough time. "Camelot," however, was a complete myth.
I'm not real familiar with the Camelot thing, what is it about
its the myth, largely initiated by his aides like Arthur Scheslinger and his widow, that the Kennedy years where this height of American culture and success, this young idealistic president ready to change the world for good and peace. In reality, Kennedy was a womanizer and constantly popping pain killers to deal with his back injury and Addison's disease, his administration bogged down in dealing both with the Soviets and civil rights. That's not to say he didn't have his pluses, but he wasn't what they try to tell us it was.
How can anyone believe 1961 - 1963 was THE BEST America has ever been lmao
this begs the question, when did America hit its peak, or has it yet to hit one?
Well that depends on your viewpoint, 50s is a good contender, I hear 90s were pretty okay too, definitely not 1961 - 1963
Definitely. I’d say mid 1990s was the best time. Broadened and protected civil and equal rights, and aside from some issues, it was a good time to be alive
If we factor in equal rights, the peak has certainly not been reached yet
Fair point, but they were better than they were in the 50s
Yeah obviously
Contrast 1960 - 1963 to baggy pants, drab old men in politics up to that time or at least throughout the 50's. The Kennedy's (Jack & Jackie) were that breath of Spring and hope and challenge and style that lifted the nation into a new age. I was a kid and was swept up in it. I said in another response here that until we are all gone, all who experienced the horror of 11/22/63, until we have passed and taken that date with us, an honest appraisal of the Kennedy years cannot be written. If you weren't there, you will never understand.
We can actually, it's been long enough, objectively it wasn't that good regardless of personal lens, also I never thought early 60s were that different from the 50s
Don’t forget he was on a lot steroids. Which made him even more reckless than normal.
To a point, Jackie got him off the worst of it after ‘61.
huh
Hard to say someone who avoided nuclear war is overrated.
So all of them besides Truman?
He didn't. The reason there was no nuclear war during Cuban Crisis was because Vasily Arhipov (one of Soviet naval officers) refused to follow orders and launch nuclear torpedos. Kennedy had nothing to do with it.
You’re getting downvoted, but you’re not wrong.
Yeah. Fanboys don't like when someone has a different opinion, wheather it's true or not.
Additionally, JFK gave up our positions in Turkey in order to get Khrushchev to back down. It was a strategic win for Russia.
Such a strategic win that it destroyed Kruschev’s domestic credibility leading to his removal 12 months later and was widely viewed in the world’s eyes as an embarrassment for the Soviets.
It was two years later. OCT 1964. It was a power grab by Brezhnev and partly unrelated to the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Sure, two years. “Partly unrelated” proves my point.
Is a random comment on Reddit really “proof?”
No, those missiles were already obsolete, and were scheduled to be removed within months under a timeline approved near the end of Eisenhower's term.
He did. The Joint Chiefs recommended invading Cuba. What they didn’t know was that there were tactical nuclear weapons already in Cuba, which would have surely been used in response to an invasion.
For 2 years in office,YES,he did awesome stuff like navigating the Cuban Missle Crisis,but he is way overrated
Space program > Cuban missle crisis
For sure one of the best but definitely overrated for the time spent in office even if it wasn’t his choice to get shot in the head. I’m sure if he wasn’t shot a lot would’ve been different now
[удалено]
Remarkably overrated. I really don't understand why there's so much "Oh the Cuban Missile Crisis" given all the information we have now, plus the fact that he's the one who started it, so there never should have been a crisis.
I do think so. The Missile Crisis never should have happened. Bay of Pigs was a botch job, and expectedly so. The invasion moved forward without the air and naval support deemed necessary by the CIA for a successful operation because Kennedy feared the international response. Kennedy gets the Vietnam War too. No, Ike didn’t start the war by sending a few advisors and military aid. And how come he gets credit for civil rights? Two of those bills were Ike’s and the other was Johnson! So I mean I’m biased, but it feels like he has a lot of bad shit, and people just kind of push that bad shit over to Ike because they don’t want to admit it.
>Kennedy gets the Vietnam War too. No, Ike didn’t start the war by sending a few advisors and military aid. Kennedy did the same thing Ike did, so Ike started the Vietnam War Also, Ike did a bunch of coups around the world that we're still having problems with today, Iran for one
Kennedy did have 23x more personnel there than did Ike, but point taken. Can we settle on Johnson? Iran is a separate topic that I will argue with you one day in a more appropriate thread. He made the right call.
>Can we settle on Johnson? Considering the war started with Gulf of Tonkin, I don't see any other option >Iran is a separate topic that I will argue with you one day in a more appropriate thread. He made the right call. We'll probably agree that it was the easier move at the time, but with hindsight I think we can appreciate the negative unforeseen consequences
Briefly, the Soviets had a friendly occupation of Iran during WW2 and did not immediately leave, creating two communist states within Iran’s borders. The Tudeh Party still held considerable influence as evidenced by the Soviet mobilized assassination attempt on the Shah in 1949. The intelligence indicated that a Tudeh coup against Mosaddegh was imminent. The original operation was merely a raid on the Tudeh. It was amended to topple Mosaddegh to avoid the possibility of consolidation by the Tudeh or the Islamic Fundamentalists that had whacked out the previous prime minister. And not for nothing, an awful lot of time passed in between this and the Islamic Revolution. We don’t blame Wilson for the Nazis, so why do we blame Ike for the Ayatollah? He left us with a stable ally in the region for decades. A lot of things happened between this and the revolution as well. Carter’s forced liberalization was terribly misguided and placed the Shah in a precarious position.
With rare exceptions like North Korea and Cuba, all those states that the Soviets occupied are American allies now. Ike's thinking was short term and reactionary. He failed to understand the weaknesses of communism
Preventing a Tudeh Iran is not a short term play. I won’t defend Guatemala like this, but Iran was absolutely the right call.
If you ever find any Iranians or Iranian diaspora who would agree with you, please let me know. I remain unconvinced
We’ve gone from “negative unforeseen consequences,” to “failed to understand the weakness of communism,” to “Iranian diaspora.” It’s clear you are stuck in your position, but can’t decide why. You should open your mind
So the guy who's never talked to Iranians about the Mossadegh coup thinks I'm the one who needs to open their mind. Am I reading your comment right?
Kennedy approved Operation Barrel Roll which was the bombing of Laos. He authorized the first direct use of force in the war. Edited: accidentally said Cambodia, not Laos.
Operation Barrel Roll was Laos. Cambodia was Operation Menu (Nixon)
Good catch, my mistake.
Well said. Happy cake day!
Thank you sir!
😁
There was 17,000 USA military personnel in Vietnam. On the day he died.
Tell that to his 70% approval rating at the time of his assassination. He was obviously doing something right
His approval rating was 58% at the time of his assassination: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/data/john-f-kennedy-public-approval
Bush Jr had 90% approval rating after 9/11.
Coming right out of an unprecedented national tragedy though. Was Kennedy's 70% the direct result of a singular incident, or just by virtue of how people deemed his performance up to that point?
Looks like he was able to turn around some major shortcomings, like the Bay of Pigs?
I’m guessing LHO was in the 30% who disapproved.
“You tell me to take a crap on the deck of the Queen Mary, an hour later they’re hosing it off with disinfectant.” Junior Soprano
Approval ratings were just higher back in the day.
Yes
LBJ is kinda a better prez ngl.
is he effective at all without the vacuum of JFK? Is the JFK presidency more effective due to tragedy?
LBJ got the laws passed that Kennedy couldn’t. And he expanded the scope of the proposed civil rights bills. LBJ was more effective than Kennedy because he did what Kennedy couldn’t. I think LBJ could’ve passed those laws without the assassination, but I’m not sure LBJ would’ve been elected without JFK.
the narrative ive seen a number of times is that he used Kennedy's legacy to help with the brow beating. From experience I can't tell you how fast someone will give you a discount when they find out your wife has cancer.
LBJ's Vietnam policy fucked him over 10 ways from Tuesday. If it hadn't been for that, I think he would have gone down as one of the greats.
The only reason LBJ got those things passed was because of the assassination of the President which generated overwhelming good will for JFK’s program. Any president could have gotten things past after a tragedy like that .
>The only reason LBJ got those things passed was because of the assassination of the President Yeah, if you ignore the rest of his political connections and concessions...but go off, I guess...
That's the cards he was dealt, and he played them well.
Unpopular opinion here- while I respect JFK I can't get over the fact that daddy Kennedy made millions selling booze via prescriptions during prohibition. Not to mention the millions more from insider trading. Then his kids get into politics and start cracking down on organized crime and closing market loop holes. I guess it's the American Dream really. I won't powershame.
My family is Irish from Central Mass, and my off-the-boat century old great grandmother HATED the Kennedys. “The old man was a bootlegger!” She used to say.
I'm all for bootleggers. I would have been on that side. However, I wouldn't have ran for office under the smoke and mirrors of fabricated morality. He and his brother banged Marilyn at the same time (again, I'd be right there high fiven) while they were married. Once Robert was US Attorney he went so hard against other organized crime families. Gotta make sure other people can't do what they did. He was a rat. But hey, I'm a fan of history, and the family. I just call it as I see it.
Was your family an anomaly amongst Mass. Irish people or is there a surprising amount of Massachusetts Irish that didn’t like the Kennedys? Just curious? I’ve studied a lot before on ethnic sociology PS Happy Birthday!
I wasn’t around myself during Kennedy, but I would say it might surprise you. This is even though obviously the vast majority are democrats and do like them. But from what I gathered, most of their problems seemed to be with the father and JFK would take some collateral damage. As a separate point, the Democrats had the Irish vote sewn up long before Kennedy.
seeth and mald while winners keep lawmaxxing. IDK I'm a millenial, it's something my kids said.
Seriously siding with Prohibition against Freedom? Are you GOP?
Nay nay, I'm adamantly against such legislation. In fact, I believe most drugs should be decriminalized. To be frank, I myself made money from America's barbaric cannabis laws. All I'm saying is I don't buy anyone's bs about the Kennedy family.
>I respect JFK I can't get over the fact that daddy Kennedy made millions selling booze via prescriptions during prohibition Um bro, smuggling alcohol into the US during Prohibition is heroic. Kennedys are Irish so they know a bad law when they see one and respond appropriately
I'm talking about the hypocrisy when they get into power and basically take out the Italian competition. Prohibition was wack. I totally agree.
Prohibition had been over for 30 years by the time Jack got into office
I'm talking about the crackdown on organized crime in general. The Kennedys made their money due to terrible laws then once in office they closed those loop holes and cracked down on other people taking the same advantage of similar laws. That's all. I said what i said. It's hypocrisy and they pretended they weren't licentious hounds like the rest of us. What are you on about?
Jack was only 16 when Prohibition ended. It sounds like you think the father and the son are the same person
A presidency is in large part the cultivation of an illusion of how Americans want to view themselves. With JFK, the illusion was youth and hopefulness for the future. “To land man on the moon before the end of the decade”, for example. That was his brand. In that regard, he was most definitely not overrated. Very fair question though to ask what he accomplished policy-wise. In my opinion, his death wiped out any possibility of his brand morphing into *anything* politically substantive, so he will always be judged by the comparative shallowness of Camelot.
Foreign policy is rough: Cuba, USSR, Vietnam. All generally seen as errors today. Domestically: NASA, starting CRA but nothing that he passed or implemented. Personally: lots of ick around women. But: he was especially charismatic and he was violently assassinated at a young age, relatively.
Yes
Yes, but he was not a terrible president or person
Underrated!
No.
Yes. I explained under other question in this subreddit, why: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1do6rce/comment/la7n1e4/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/Presidents/comments/1do6rce/comment/la7n1e4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Yeah, I know. I wanted to expand upon the consensus that he was.
Not overrated, he’s just extra-loved because his presidency was tragically cut short.
Much like the French Revolution... ...too soon to tell.
“Die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain” jfk died a hero
Nah I don’t think he’s overrated. Sure he was only in office for about 3 years, but for the most part what he accomplished and set in motion was good. I think most people would say JFK was a good president but not a top tier president and I think that’s a fair assessment.
I feel he’s kinda underrated tbh. He doesn’t get nearly the credit he deserves for getting the ball rolling on the legislative level for the civil rights movement. Had he lived he would’ve been the one getting the credit for getting those bills passed. And I think he would’ve done it better tbh. They would’ve been more functional and we wouldn’t have such a racial divide today because of it.
More like underground 😬
Not necessarily overrated but rather unfinished and incredibly over romanticized. His facade was a good one. A younger man, from the northeast. A man from money with influence in political circles going back three generations. On the inside he was a chronic womanizer, alcoholic, addicted to Cuban cigars, and had addisons disease, on top of other ailments
Mind-blowing President
His list of ACTUAL accomplishments is pretty scant: Raised minimum wage. Alliance for Progress. Peace Corps. Expressed support for Civil Rights. His also didn't end the world during the Cuban Crisis. But like Reagan, people remember how presidents made them FEEL. That's harder to quantify. I do feel like he's over-hyped for sure.
I would call it “incomplete” for obvious reasons. When some dies, we tend to look at most of the good things. We don’t know how another 5 years would have been with him.
Yes, and overwhelmingly obviously so. That doesn't mean you have to dislike him or his policies, but people have a crush on him, he could be objectively one of the worst people to hold the off9ce and people would still claim him as one of the best.
It is impossible to over rate or under a president from 60 years ago
NEVER
Not at all: - Proposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - Signed the Equal Pay Act - Negotiated the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty - Sent food aid to millions of starving people across the globe (George McGovern, the Democratic nominee in 1972, became famous from his work with JFK on this project) - Diffused the Cuban Missile Crisis - Provided a new bus to the Freedom Riders after their vehicle was destroyed in a racist riot - Supported the 24th Amendment banning poll taxes - Raised the minimum wage - Boosted NASA spending and helped pave the a for the Moon Landings - Cut off aid to the dictator Ngo Dinh Diem - Founded the Peace Corps - Created a committee to crack down on racial discrimination in employment practices
Yes
He is a little but he also had substantial potential he unfortunately never fulfilled.
He saved the world. So, no.
With all his skirt chasing it’s amazing what he accomplished
Yes.
He didn’t achieve much legislatively and for that reason many people consider him overrated. A better and more fair way to appraise him is being unfulfilled potential because of his assassination rather than overrated. Because there is no telling what he might have accomplished if he had not been assassinated before finishing his term - he was a wildly popular president who averaged 70% public approval while in office (basically impossible to imagine now) and he used the moral authority and platform of the presidency to build support for racial equality and the creative arts at a time when America was amassing crazy amounts of cultural power globally.
He reined in the unelected warlords who wanted to nuke the world for abstract geopolitical reasons. For that alone he deserves all the praise he gets.
No he’s not
Your mom is an overrated president.
We would have had a very different, and far weaker civil rights bill under Kennedy.
no, lol
Other than the Cuban Missile crisis it feels like Boomers attributed most of LBJs accomplishments to Kennedy while tarring Johnson with all of both Kennedy's failures and his own.
Far more heart-wrenching to tear a martyr off a pedestal than a man…
According to all the older people I ever spoke to about him, JFK was greatly liked and his death genuinely left a scar on a generation.
Most definitely....
When we compare Kennedy as a politician to the democrats who came after him, Kennedy was more articulate and acted more like a leader. His presidency was too short, so it is hard to compare him to other Presidents. Kennedy basically continued the policies of his predecessor, Eisenhower, except that Kennedy lowered the highest tax rate on the rich from 90% to 70%. This began the long unwinding of FDR's policies, which would culminate with Reagan lowering the tax rate of the wealthy to below that of middle-class taxpayers. Vice President Johnson convinced Kennedy to initiate a moon landing program, which Kennedy saw as a purely political endeavor. Kennedy had he lived, would not have widened the Vietnam War. Certainly, Kennedy put a stop to supporting an absurd private invasion of Cuba, the Bay of Pigs, financed by wealthy oil barons in Texas. Kennedy's administration, especially AG Bobby Kennedy, tried to break the back of organized crime in the US.
I read this great transcript about LBJ from the Kennedy Center and it said once, "JFK inspired, LBJ delivered." He talked a big great talk, and his death was useful insofar is that it was able to get the legislation he was pushing for into law, with the downside of him being dead. Without his death, LBJ probably doesn't have the political capital to get it onto JFK's desk. He promised to put us in the Moon by the end of the decade, thought not until delegating the responsibility of finding out if that was possible to early NASA supporter... LBJ. He handled the Cuban Missile Crisis pretty well, and that's pretty neat. His role in Vietnam is mostly ignored, and you always hear stories about how right before his death he changed his mind and was going to do everything perfectly... :-: I don't buy it. Overall, yeah, probably, he's still in the top third of presidents by my ranking, because he talked a great big talk.
I dont think so. The power of JFK was always in his vision and embracing the possibilities. I am not sure we have ever seen a president who was that inspirational.
LBJ did more long lasting good for the USA than JFK.
Not sure why this is getting downvoted. It’s very true. LBJ did more than the first two civil rights bills for the country. I always liked Horace Busby’s take on LBJ during a Kennedy dinner in New York. LBJ was sitting at a table and “trying to engage with New York socialites who had no idea what the term ‘appropriation’ meant”. And thus, you have why JFK remains so popular (could connect with anyone) while never really achieving anything of significant importance during his presidency.
Don’t forget Medicare and Medicaid!
absolutely not overrated.
Cuban missile crisis and Nasa, who knows what he could have done. I wouldn’t say overrated for what he accomplished in 2 years.
NASA started in 1958 after Eisenhower, and moon landing was in 1969 under Nixon. Kennedy was just a part of it And Cuban Missile Crisis didn't escale, not because of Kennedy, but because of one Soviet naval officer, that refused to follow orders and use nuclear torpedos.
Yeah, but the increased budget and attention to NASA also allowed greater research on missile technology along with the rocketry research. This helped us compete against the USSR better. The "Missile Gap" was not in numbers, but in keeping pace and moving ahead with research and technology in ways to keep us safer.
Would Nixon follow the same path if he was elected president in 1960? Im pretty sure he would, as NASA was widely popular, and there was a consensus about it.
Nixon had only been in office for about 5 months when the Moon Landing occurred. Hard to give him credit for this. Johnson was much more responsible for this happening. Also, you have to agree that JFK inspired an entire generation with his Space initiatives and plans. edit: add word for clarity
I didn't say it should be Nixon who should be given credit for. What I meant is, that it should not be Kennedy that is given credit for it.
“should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to earth.”
Yeah it should. Good they did
No, just based on Cuban Missile Crisis alone. He was a true leader.
Really? He gave up US positions in Turkey and Greece to get the Russians to back down. It was a strategic win for Russia. They accomplished their objectives, the US did not.
Considering he fuckin died and many consider him a martyr I’d say no
Not really. Maybe with the public at large, but in the historical reckoning 10th, as he currently stands, feels fine. Looking at the Presidents ranked below him I only see a handful, looking at you Grant, that I'd bump up passed him.
Yeah, he kinda let it go to his head.
Yes, overrated. His legislative record for his short time is dramatically inferior to that of his immediate predecessors and successors in the New Deal Era. Even considering his 2.3 years in office, it's really lackluster. In terms of Foreign Policy, JFK of course really fumbled the bag by making an enemy out of Cuba 90 miles off our coast, rather than taking a diplomatic approach like Nixon did with China. As a result, Cuba was eager to house USSR nuclear missiles, which we can blame Eisenhower for putting nukes in Turkey provoking the USSR to want to respond in kind. USSR began trying to put the nukes in Cuba. But JFK and the USA escalated these tensions by blockading Cuba to try to stop it, bringing us to the brink of Nuclear War. It is my opinion that JFK was wrong to blockade Cuba for trying to do something we had already done in Turkey. It is my opinion that JFK caused the Cuban Missile Crisis by being unwilling to accept that Nukes would be housed in Cuba, and being unwilling to negotiate for no nukes in Cuba in exchange for no nukes within 300 miles of the USSR border, or some kind of equivalent deal. Conclusion: he didn't accomplish very much legislatively. His actions needlessly and inappropriately brought us to the brink of Global Thermonuclear War. He is a D-tier President.
Hell No!
No
No.
Yes. He is quite overrated, although this sub seems to show more restraint in its praise. I like JFK, but I’ve seen people put him in their top 5, which I just can’t understand.
I think he is Number One when it comes to mistresses.
Very much overrated.
No.
Bay of Pigs, brink of nuclear war with Russia with nukes in Turkey, stalled on advancing civil rights, started Vietnam War..
By a mile
Yes
Yes.
It’s always bothered me that he really didn’t win that election
Thank you. Not only did he probably fall short of the votes, the Russians ran ad campaigns in the US to bolster his support because they feared Nixon would be a continuation of Ike, whom they feared.
Dudes only remembered as much because he got his head blown off on video
Yep. Also a big fan of the drink and slapping his wife around.