The problem with this is unless the Saudis are just blindly funding it than the money is overwhelmingly in America. Nobody wants to sponsor tournaments where the American audience wakes up and sees the last 5 holes.
For sure, although explicitly being the international tournament is important to grow the market space that would allow for more tournaments over seas.
I didn’t want my og comment to be incumbent but I think the entrenched power of courses and orgs stateside would get in the way of it even if it was possible. No one would want to lose their schedule slot to another course in Spain for instance, even if it was for a “greater good” of growing the sport globally.
Like you said the money will have to show up and even then it will be deeply political. Still I think it’s best.
I am pretty content with how the PGA Tour is right now. I really don’t get Rory’s position. For the LIV guys, you knew what you were signing up for. Getting big paydays while not being seen play golf.
Two events this year went to a playoff. Six events this year had the margin of victory of only 1 stroke. Two of the three biggest blowouts were won by big names (Scottie won by 5 at Arnold Palmer, Hideki won by 3 at Genesis).
I'd rather watch a tournament that comes down to the 72nd hole than watch a big name run away with it before they've reached the turn on Sunday
Someone argued with me on another thread about how boring this calendar year of golf has been.
It's impossible to reason with people who have no real interest in the drama of the sport outside the fact that Tiger or a major is happening. I listed close over a half dozen events this year that were excellent to watch for a number of different reasons.
There will never be another Tiger. Just not possible in today's game. Too competitive. Would love to be proven wrong, but I think too highly of Tiger to be unbiased.
It should not have been possible in Tiger's era either. You have to be a full standard deviation better than second. However there will be another dominant player because that's how sports evolve. Imagine hearing 30 years ago:
1) a swimmer would win 3x as many golds as Mark Spitz
2) three tennis players would win 20+ grand slams
3) a golfer's record would match up equally with Nicklaus
4) a quarterback's playoff success would render Montana insignificant
5) a basketball player would have 40,000 points and be reasonably argued GOAT vs. Jordan
6) a baseball player would win 7 MVPs and despite walking twice as often his best contemporary have the single season, the all-time home run records and effectively match Babe Ruth in total value.
You make a fair point!
But some records will never be touched - Gretzky might be one of those guys.
In Tiger's case it's kind of funny because by measure of major championships won, he's still in second place! Jack might be that guy in golf.
By "next tiger woods" do you mean one player who wins many tournaments? Or one player who wins many tournaments by large margins?
Because if someone (maybe Scottie) wins 10+ tournaments this year, but they're all close, I'd love that. If all of his wins are by 5 strokes or more and there's little drama on Sunday afternoon, I'm probably not watching much.
Yeah honestly I’d be totally fine if the liv guys just faded into irrelevancy and the pga tour just kept it’s own course. They’re great at producing a few new names that are fun to watch. (Nick Dunlap, Jake Knapp) That will continue to happen
Do you have any theories on why the ratings are down? Even the Players, with a competitive finish and bigger stars, down significantly in TV ratings.
Decline in ratings would suggest that overall audience isn't content with the product.
Half the big names are gone, the remaining big names are struggling and Scottie is a very good/nice but doesn't have the aura to carry the PGA on his back. Plus all the storylines have been been more or less stagnant for two years now which makes it boring AF. There's nothing "fresh".
The massive elephant in the room is that you just can't go as far as Jay/the PGA went PR-wise (hello 9/11 families) only to change your mind and expect the fans to support a deal with PIF.
The PGA is also behind every major sport with its social media presence. In 2024, short clips of players signing stuff for fans or wives talking with each other with bless your heart energy isn't good enough.
I think there is something in this.
A lot of the ‘mavericks’ have left the PGA and taken the money. In my opinion not the right thing and won’t watch or support a LIV event, however, big personalities have left the PGA and it is less entertaining as a result.
Really? The PGA Tour has been really boring so far this season. I hope the majors make it more entertaining. I’m not a LIV fan, but having some of those better players playing regularly against the PGA Tour’s best seems needed for viewership purposes.
The leaderboard is definitely missing some names. If it keeps going like this for a few more years, new stars will emerge like Wyndam and leaderboards will feel more stacked again but it won’t be as legit.
That said, I have enjoyed most of the events this year, including the mule winners. Always gets me a little choked up when a guy wins and gets to keep his job for a few more years.
Boring? They've been pretty good and fun to watch with things coming down to the wire. The commercials are a bit much. Liv is unwatchable with it's shotgun start and closed field. No new winners and the same guys over and over.
This is gonna be a big Masters for Professional Golf.
15 LIV guys in the Masters field. If they do well as a group, or scoop a win (which is highly likely with Brooks and Rahm) what does it do?
For me I would say it diminishes the PGA more than it uplifts LIV. Does it change the 'big deal' valuation?
The longer the PGA waits, the stronger LIV will get as a field, especially if they pick off another top player from the PGA.
Rich Lerner and Brendel Chamblee were right on with Ramhbo.
He knows the thrill is gone from golf playing with the silly #LIVGolf format but he likes the money. I heard $600M for 4 years. You can bet the others that are close to 4 years will bail if their bodies can hold up to real competition on #PGATour.
Saudis black mailed #PGATour pure and simple. Maybe some will say they forced #PGATour to make moves that were way over due. Jimmy knows 17 of 19 hijackers at 911 were Saudi Arabians PERIOD. Yet this fact is concealed by every news source. President Bush flew the Saudi Royals out of the USA even when all flights were grounded. Why? IMHO because Saudis for billions of USA funding agree not to attack Israel.
I would say the majority of people who watch the PGA Tour don't give a shit about anyone on LIV.
And the LIV pricks are welcome to ask for a path back. Not sure why most of them would be wanted back anyway.
Again...people who watch the week to week tournaments on the PGAT know more than just so called "household" names and they aren't missing those people. I am guessing you barely watched tour regularly despite what you are going to claim. So you saying you care less now doesn't really matter.
Most people don’t watch the tour week to week, you’re in a small minority of the viewing population. Most people, like me, are casual viewers that want to see big names. Wyndham Clark is a nice guy but he’s not bringing people to the tv, and those other guys are. That’s WHY LIV gave them huge amounts of money to play for them.
And Rory, JT, Speithz Scheffler, Schauffle not big enough? You keep talking in circles. And this argument is tedious and misses the larger problem with professional golf. But just blindly saying people only want to see "big names" is a lazy brain dead argument so you go with that.
He’s saying there would be more eyes with more golf stars on the same tour which is almost certainly true. Dont really see why you’re trying so hard to not understand his point - it’s not that complicated.
You are undermining the fact that the BIG stars ARE missed. You're off your rocker if you truly think that the passionate week to week fans don't miss Rahm, DJ and Koepka. Schauffele might be great and an olympic champion but he sure isn't a star. I've watched pretty much every tournament for 20 years and its blatantly apparent that the PGA Tour just isn't as good as it could be.
Some tournaments' TV ratings are down 30% this year. That matters a lot more to the sponsors than your opinion.The only one that went up is the AmEx (Dunlap). Everything else is down.
We know a merger is inevitable. If we end up with a new tour and its format resembles LIV and goes to 54 holes, I’m out as a viewer. No hard feelings but I won’t want to watch 54 hole tournaments except for the old guys. Call me a traditionalist but 72 holes just seems more legit.
Why is the conversation always about how golf isn't sustainable because of LIV? LIV is the one that isn't sustainable. Look at all the players who came over and look at the astronomical amounts of money they paid them. They aren't getting attendance revenue, they aren't getting viewership revenue, and, therefore, not getting the ad revenue. That league is in so much fucking debt and I don't see them turning a profit anytime soon. Idc how much money you have. Whoever is financing that is gonna cut their losses eventually.
They started the league because the tour wouldn’t come to the table. It was to force their hand. And it worked. The framework agreement, which we now know was mostly bullshit, was signed last June. Since then, however, the tour got outside investment. So PIF responded with signing away Rahm for a totally ridiculous sum of money that basically signaled to the tour that they need to reach a conclusion. But there’s no way they can continue to just steal stars at huge dollars. You’ve got the first batch who will have contracts expiring. You think Koepka isn’t going to say hey I left for $120 million and legitimized this place and then Jon with his 2 majors gets 500? That’s what I need now. So it creates a never ending cycle of them hemorrhaging more and more cash. How much will Niemann want moving forward now that he’s gotta chase world rankings points all around the world. Dechambeau, Reed, DJ even are all close to losing major exemptions. They have to make the deal.
I don’t care about these players once they left the tour. Out of sight, out of mind. And bringing them back for majors doesn’t make me care about them anymore. I’m just in it for good golf and the PGA has good golf.
I think it’s a good thing that some LIV players are on board with Rory’s comments that the divide needs to end. That’s a step in the right direction. The hard part is finding the solution to make it happen. I think Rory’s idea of a champions league is the best idea I’ve seen but there’s too many of the lower level guys on PGA and LIV fighting against it.
I personally hate some of the LIV rules like shotgun starts and 54-hole events and wearing shorts and playing music…I can live with the team golf in the off-season and early season events. I just hope it doesn’t become a sticking point where LiV wants to implement it into a merger. I’ve heard the Saudi guy that Tiger and Monahan met with wants to maintain much of the LIV rules.
Personally, I’ve enjoyed watching Rahm, Cam, Brooks, Bryson, DJ, Niemann, Phil, Gooch, Kim, Reed, and others grow the game internationally.
At this point, I do think Rory would join LIV, he just hasn’t won a major in a decade, and is concerned with potentially losing eligibility to compete in the majors.
If Hovland wins a major, welcome to LIV golf.
Will be interesting to see who joins LIV next. LIV continues to become a stronger league and PGA will be left in the dust if Jay and the private equity crew don’t figure something out quickly.
Have an international tour that stands above all others. Like F1
The problem with this is unless the Saudis are just blindly funding it than the money is overwhelmingly in America. Nobody wants to sponsor tournaments where the American audience wakes up and sees the last 5 holes.
For sure, although explicitly being the international tournament is important to grow the market space that would allow for more tournaments over seas. I didn’t want my og comment to be incumbent but I think the entrenched power of courses and orgs stateside would get in the way of it even if it was possible. No one would want to lose their schedule slot to another course in Spain for instance, even if it was for a “greater good” of growing the sport globally. Like you said the money will have to show up and even then it will be deeply political. Still I think it’s best.
Imagine getting paid to create the divide and now try to stand on the pedestal claiming this split is bad for the sport. You caused this dickheads.
Agreed. Take the money and quit bitchen
I am pretty content with how the PGA Tour is right now. I really don’t get Rory’s position. For the LIV guys, you knew what you were signing up for. Getting big paydays while not being seen play golf.
Two events this year went to a playoff. Six events this year had the margin of victory of only 1 stroke. Two of the three biggest blowouts were won by big names (Scottie won by 5 at Arnold Palmer, Hideki won by 3 at Genesis). I'd rather watch a tournament that comes down to the 72nd hole than watch a big name run away with it before they've reached the turn on Sunday
Someone argued with me on another thread about how boring this calendar year of golf has been. It's impossible to reason with people who have no real interest in the drama of the sport outside the fact that Tiger or a major is happening. I listed close over a half dozen events this year that were excellent to watch for a number of different reasons.
so you don’t want to watch another Tiger Woods?
There will never be another Tiger. Just not possible in today's game. Too competitive. Would love to be proven wrong, but I think too highly of Tiger to be unbiased.
It should not have been possible in Tiger's era either. You have to be a full standard deviation better than second. However there will be another dominant player because that's how sports evolve. Imagine hearing 30 years ago: 1) a swimmer would win 3x as many golds as Mark Spitz 2) three tennis players would win 20+ grand slams 3) a golfer's record would match up equally with Nicklaus 4) a quarterback's playoff success would render Montana insignificant 5) a basketball player would have 40,000 points and be reasonably argued GOAT vs. Jordan 6) a baseball player would win 7 MVPs and despite walking twice as often his best contemporary have the single season, the all-time home run records and effectively match Babe Ruth in total value.
You make a fair point! But some records will never be touched - Gretzky might be one of those guys. In Tiger's case it's kind of funny because by measure of major championships won, he's still in second place! Jack might be that guy in golf.
By "next tiger woods" do you mean one player who wins many tournaments? Or one player who wins many tournaments by large margins? Because if someone (maybe Scottie) wins 10+ tournaments this year, but they're all close, I'd love that. If all of his wins are by 5 strokes or more and there's little drama on Sunday afternoon, I'm probably not watching much.
could be someone who does a career grand slam in one year or a Tiger Slam
Yeah honestly I’d be totally fine if the liv guys just faded into irrelevancy and the pga tour just kept it’s own course. They’re great at producing a few new names that are fun to watch. (Nick Dunlap, Jake Knapp) That will continue to happen
Do you have any theories on why the ratings are down? Even the Players, with a competitive finish and bigger stars, down significantly in TV ratings. Decline in ratings would suggest that overall audience isn't content with the product.
Half the big names are gone, the remaining big names are struggling and Scottie is a very good/nice but doesn't have the aura to carry the PGA on his back. Plus all the storylines have been been more or less stagnant for two years now which makes it boring AF. There's nothing "fresh". The massive elephant in the room is that you just can't go as far as Jay/the PGA went PR-wise (hello 9/11 families) only to change your mind and expect the fans to support a deal with PIF. The PGA is also behind every major sport with its social media presence. In 2024, short clips of players signing stuff for fans or wives talking with each other with bless your heart energy isn't good enough.
I think there is something in this. A lot of the ‘mavericks’ have left the PGA and taken the money. In my opinion not the right thing and won’t watch or support a LIV event, however, big personalities have left the PGA and it is less entertaining as a result.
I think the golfers are boring.
Oops!
Really? The PGA Tour has been really boring so far this season. I hope the majors make it more entertaining. I’m not a LIV fan, but having some of those better players playing regularly against the PGA Tour’s best seems needed for viewership purposes.
The leaderboard is definitely missing some names. If it keeps going like this for a few more years, new stars will emerge like Wyndam and leaderboards will feel more stacked again but it won’t be as legit. That said, I have enjoyed most of the events this year, including the mule winners. Always gets me a little choked up when a guy wins and gets to keep his job for a few more years.
Boring? They've been pretty good and fun to watch with things coming down to the wire. The commercials are a bit much. Liv is unwatchable with it's shotgun start and closed field. No new winners and the same guys over and over.
Just sustainable enough for the 600M check to clear. Rahm is a coward
This is gonna be a big Masters for Professional Golf. 15 LIV guys in the Masters field. If they do well as a group, or scoop a win (which is highly likely with Brooks and Rahm) what does it do? For me I would say it diminishes the PGA more than it uplifts LIV. Does it change the 'big deal' valuation? The longer the PGA waits, the stronger LIV will get as a field, especially if they pick off another top player from the PGA.
They want their cake $$$$ and to eat it too
Rich Lerner and Brendel Chamblee were right on with Ramhbo. He knows the thrill is gone from golf playing with the silly #LIVGolf format but he likes the money. I heard $600M for 4 years. You can bet the others that are close to 4 years will bail if their bodies can hold up to real competition on #PGATour. Saudis black mailed #PGATour pure and simple. Maybe some will say they forced #PGATour to make moves that were way over due. Jimmy knows 17 of 19 hijackers at 911 were Saudi Arabians PERIOD. Yet this fact is concealed by every news source. President Bush flew the Saudi Royals out of the USA even when all flights were grounded. Why? IMHO because Saudis for billions of USA funding agree not to attack Israel.
I would say the majority of people who watch the PGA Tour don't give a shit about anyone on LIV. And the LIV pricks are welcome to ask for a path back. Not sure why most of them would be wanted back anyway.
Ratings this year would indicate otherwise
You think if there had been no split the ratings would have been better? I doubt that.
For sure they would, most of the household names are on LIV. I care less now, for instance, too. Missing Koepka, Rahm, DJ, and Dechambeau is huge
Again...people who watch the week to week tournaments on the PGAT know more than just so called "household" names and they aren't missing those people. I am guessing you barely watched tour regularly despite what you are going to claim. So you saying you care less now doesn't really matter.
Most people don’t watch the tour week to week, you’re in a small minority of the viewing population. Most people, like me, are casual viewers that want to see big names. Wyndham Clark is a nice guy but he’s not bringing people to the tv, and those other guys are. That’s WHY LIV gave them huge amounts of money to play for them.
And Rory, JT, Speithz Scheffler, Schauffle not big enough? You keep talking in circles. And this argument is tedious and misses the larger problem with professional golf. But just blindly saying people only want to see "big names" is a lazy brain dead argument so you go with that.
He’s saying there would be more eyes with more golf stars on the same tour which is almost certainly true. Dont really see why you’re trying so hard to not understand his point - it’s not that complicated.
You are undermining the fact that the BIG stars ARE missed. You're off your rocker if you truly think that the passionate week to week fans don't miss Rahm, DJ and Koepka. Schauffele might be great and an olympic champion but he sure isn't a star. I've watched pretty much every tournament for 20 years and its blatantly apparent that the PGA Tour just isn't as good as it could be.
Some tournaments' TV ratings are down 30% this year. That matters a lot more to the sponsors than your opinion.The only one that went up is the AmEx (Dunlap). Everything else is down.
The highest form of gaslighting. Fuck these guys. lol
Haven’t missed a PGA tournament…love it all the same without the sellouts
We know a merger is inevitable. If we end up with a new tour and its format resembles LIV and goes to 54 holes, I’m out as a viewer. No hard feelings but I won’t want to watch 54 hole tournaments except for the old guys. Call me a traditionalist but 72 holes just seems more legit.
Why is the conversation always about how golf isn't sustainable because of LIV? LIV is the one that isn't sustainable. Look at all the players who came over and look at the astronomical amounts of money they paid them. They aren't getting attendance revenue, they aren't getting viewership revenue, and, therefore, not getting the ad revenue. That league is in so much fucking debt and I don't see them turning a profit anytime soon. Idc how much money you have. Whoever is financing that is gonna cut their losses eventually.
You should research the Saudi Public Investment Fund further. The PIF has almost $1 Trillion USD in assets under management.
Nobody said PIF was running out of money. But the LIV golf league is hemorrhaging cash. They’re probably approaching the $2 billion mark in losses.
The Chairman of LIV Golf is the Governor of PIF…
Do you not understand the difference between an entire investment fund and an investment within that fund?
So what's your theory, that LIV will run out of funding and PIF will let it be a major public failure?
They started the league because the tour wouldn’t come to the table. It was to force their hand. And it worked. The framework agreement, which we now know was mostly bullshit, was signed last June. Since then, however, the tour got outside investment. So PIF responded with signing away Rahm for a totally ridiculous sum of money that basically signaled to the tour that they need to reach a conclusion. But there’s no way they can continue to just steal stars at huge dollars. You’ve got the first batch who will have contracts expiring. You think Koepka isn’t going to say hey I left for $120 million and legitimized this place and then Jon with his 2 majors gets 500? That’s what I need now. So it creates a never ending cycle of them hemorrhaging more and more cash. How much will Niemann want moving forward now that he’s gotta chase world rankings points all around the world. Dechambeau, Reed, DJ even are all close to losing major exemptions. They have to make the deal.
Wasn’t the company line last year that LIV was the future?
I don’t care about these players once they left the tour. Out of sight, out of mind. And bringing them back for majors doesn’t make me care about them anymore. I’m just in it for good golf and the PGA has good golf.
I think it’s a good thing that some LIV players are on board with Rory’s comments that the divide needs to end. That’s a step in the right direction. The hard part is finding the solution to make it happen. I think Rory’s idea of a champions league is the best idea I’ve seen but there’s too many of the lower level guys on PGA and LIV fighting against it. I personally hate some of the LIV rules like shotgun starts and 54-hole events and wearing shorts and playing music…I can live with the team golf in the off-season and early season events. I just hope it doesn’t become a sticking point where LiV wants to implement it into a merger. I’ve heard the Saudi guy that Tiger and Monahan met with wants to maintain much of the LIV rules.
The absolutely dumbest part in all of this is that if LIV had a traditional format we’d all be watching.
If the shorts and DJs didn't bring in viewership I'm not sure the format could help.
LIV-PGA should dissolve so that only PGA remains.
I see a lot of Sherlock Holmes...
Personally, I’ve enjoyed watching Rahm, Cam, Brooks, Bryson, DJ, Niemann, Phil, Gooch, Kim, Reed, and others grow the game internationally. At this point, I do think Rory would join LIV, he just hasn’t won a major in a decade, and is concerned with potentially losing eligibility to compete in the majors. If Hovland wins a major, welcome to LIV golf. Will be interesting to see who joins LIV next. LIV continues to become a stronger league and PGA will be left in the dust if Jay and the private equity crew don’t figure something out quickly.
You're not even trying to hide yourself are you, Greg.