If you are grading everything within your LMS, then allowing a student to submit by email lets them push their responsibility for organization onto you. Now you have to keep track of THEIR assignment being somewhere different from the rest, and not just for that one student.
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
I don't accept work via email, and I don't accept work via comments. Period. If I need work in that way, I will specifically ask for it, otherwise I won't even review it late for feedback only. LMS submission or it wasn't submitted and I take no responsibility to open it.
Not being tough, there are computer security and fairness issues at play here.
"On second thought, it would be unjust for me to accept late work via email, as that directly contradicts course policy and allows one student additional assignment options not available to all other students."
Sometimes people will say “Here is the due date, but I will take assignments until I start grading. Turn in after the due date at your own risk.”
This sounds like what OP did. They closed the portal when they started grading, but the student tried to get around that by sending it in an email.
the OP clearly stated that the submission portal closed on the deadline itself. and what has you starting to grade got to do with students submitting late ? you grade their assignment when they turn in, and give them points according to your late submission policy. it's not exactly rocket science...
Your admin must not pull the, "Well, we need to work with the students who are having a hard time and encourage them" nonsense judging from your very direct comment. By nonsense I mean asking us to ignore policy without asking us to ignore policy.
Many have to walk a line between two extremes. Our admin will support us, but only if we take action. Either way a punk pulling a submit late via email turns into work if we accept it or not. I'm happy for you that you don't seem to have this particular issue.
I agree with you, but I reread the post and nowhere does OP say the work would have been accepted late via any other method. It was a commenter who mentioned the possibility of a late policy accepting work.
At least in my mind, that meant the grade book closed was "past deadline, no further submissions accepted."
Now that I'm trying to find why you're assuming OP otherwise accepts late work and being so vile as to call him/her an idiot. Your name calling is exactly why I facetiously used the word punk, so it's a bit humorous that you called out that behavior, truth be told.
We'd have to ask OP, but upon reread it sounds like the grading period was done with either no late work window or even the window was closed.
> I reopened the submission portal (warning them that they'd get a penalty as per dept policy), and the respective penalty was deducted from the total mark.
verbatim from OP's post
It discriminates against the students who:
1. Are too afraid/nervous/introverted to ask for special treatment.
2. Are first-gen college students and don’t know that asking for special treatment is even an option or even how to go about it.
3. Are rule-followers who take the syllabus at face value (as it should be taken).
have you ever taught a course in your life, or are you even a professor? do you know what a late submission policy is? how is it special treatment when someone submits late and their points are getting docked for it. people who submitted on time get their score out of full points. people who submit late, get a penalty. what part of that you do not understand ?
I’m not sure if you noticed this, but OP never said in their post what their late submission policy was or what the penalty for a late submission is. It could be “No late work. Late work earns a grade of 0.” For all you know.
You seem to be fighting with everyone on this sub using an assumed late penalty/policy that is “x% per day” or something.
It’s special treatment when someone accepts an email submission when their course policy clearly prohibits it. If the late submission policy is “No late work”, then allowing the student to submit late (even with a penalty) is special treatment. In reality, we won’t know until OP gives us more information on their exact policy.
>I reopened the submission portal (warning them that they'd get a penalty as per dept policy), and the respective penalty was deducted from the total mark.
this is what the OP wrote. it can be induced from this that there is in fact a department wide policy allowing for late submissions for a penalty, which is not "no late work, late work earns a grade of 0".
now if there is a late penalty in place, how are the students going to submit, if not via email, if the submission portal has been closed by an idiot of an OP ??
take your discrimination nonsense and try to cook it elsewhere.
I mean if there is a late penalty in place just leave the submission portal open. in this case I would side with the student if you do not have a policy for any late homework getting a 0. In that case when the submission portal is closed there are no ifs or buts.
Yeah that’s is what I don’t understand. If I accidentally closed it (when it should be open since I accept late work) I would for sure accept it via email because it was _my_ mistake.
OP may indeed have issues with stress (and to echo another reply here, I don't really understand their late policy and procedures), but the way you say things matters. Your response seemed unsympathetic and a bit condescending. That may not have been what you intended, but that's what came across.
This is particularly the case because we don't know what's happening in OP's life. I have a partner who can be a sounding board for teaching-related stress and issues. Maybe OP doesn't have that kind of support.
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Why are you so upset about a student having a different opinion than you? So what if they think it is unjust. It wasn’t, and you know it. Relax. Just because some naive student thinks something doesn’t make it true.
But I do have a question: if you close the portal, how do you expect students to submit late work? It sounds like you accept it with a penalty, but have no way for them to submit. Email was a reasonable attempt on their part, given that the portal was closed. I probably would have forced them to use the portal, but treated as submitted when the email was sent (after checking to make sure the submissions are the same).
I have been in your shoes where the students just get on my last nerve. For me, it's been the chat GPT has been killing my teaching Joy. But I try not to let it get to me in a way where I take it out on the students. I don't know if it would be unjust, but it is unkind. I would side with the student on this.
everyone in this sub needs to stop whining about chatgpt and figure out a way to coexist with it. believe it or not, it is here to stay. comes across as coal miners whining about nuclear energy.
i dont have a blanket answer. it depends on the course. but one thing is very clear, chatgpt and other models are only going to keep getting better and better. for many courses, we will have to fundamentally rethink how they need to be taught. blaming students all the time is not going to accomplish anything. it's not like everyone on this subreddit is a teacher of the year award winner.
>chatgpt and other models are only going to keep getting better and better
That doesn't mean they are ethical or that we need to embrace them. This can still be true while the fact remains that they are a cancer on education.
the whole world says so. in 30 years from now chatgpt will still be around and stronger and pervasive. your opinion, on the other hand, will be... ... forgotten.
I don't see it that way. I think trying to ban AI is pointless and More in line with your metaphor. The instructor perspective it is not that simple. We see that AI has severely impacted student performance in subsequent courses worse than the pandemic did. It has enormous implications for students and that's what instructors are commenting about, myself included. It is literally no sweat off my brow to pretend that I don't see students embark on a crucial that fascinating pivotal Journey. However, I can no longer offer homework or open book projects and papers because students do not collaborate with AI, they just copy and paste from it. AI causes students to receive inflated grades and an over-inflated sense of their grasp of the material. It's not my job to teach students how to use AI more ethically. But I have been encouraging my Institution to do so.
> However, I can no longer offer homework or open book projects and papers because students do not collaborate with AI, they just copy and paste from it.
yes, then adapt and evolve. stop doing what was done 10 years ago when you were a student.
not calling you out personally since I dont know you, but the truth is that many people on this subreddit would rather spend their time going through the motions of teaching the same thing again and again with minimal effort than actually take some time and effort to adapt. but the real worse thing is that they will not stop whining about it...
*everyone in this sub needs to stop whining about chatgpt and figure out a way to coexist with it. believe it or not, it is here to stay. comes across as coal miners whining about nuclear energy.*
I don't need to "figure out a way to coexist with it." We all already coexist with it. But there's no question it encourages behaviors that keep students from learning the material. I haven't figured out how to solve that problem, and I have every right to complain about it.
If we didn't care about student learning, then none of us would be complaining about the AI bots. So maybe get off your high horse already.
>If we didn't care about student learning, then none of us would be complaining about the AI bots. So maybe get off your high horse already.
this thread amply demonstrates how folk in this subreddit absolutely DO NOT care about student learning.
THis thread was created by a professor who closed the submission portal and did not allow the student to submit late -- despite there being a late submission policy in place. When the student emailed the assignment, which was the obvious and correct thing to do, not only did the professor noticed it late, the idiot also went on to dock more points from the student because of it. And then creates a post whining about the student calling it "unjust", which it completely is. And the worst thing is that many people here are supporting the idiot poster, who deleted their account after making a series of whiny self-entitled posts.
So do not come and tell me that people here care about student learning. most people in this subreddit are miserable NTT/adjuncts who care about whining how the system is so broken and everyone but them is at fault.
I agree with you about the flaws in the OP's approach, but honestly I think a lot of people here project their own experiences onto the situation, so they were imagining a similar, yet distinct situation where the student might indeed be in the wrong, and then commented accordingly. That just means we don't always read carefully (just like our students, lol), but it doesn't mean we all don't care about student learning.
I agree with you in this case though that the OP is in the wrong here, unless there is more crucial information that has been left out that exonerates the OP (which is unlikely, since it's their post). Also, they deleted themselves shortly after so they likely know they are wrong too.
never said or meant to imply that all people here don't care about student learning. so please do not take it personally. but the average poster in this subreddit definitely does not. just look at the typical rant posts and all the garbage that people post in them.
lol, you literally said this but ok
>this thread amply demonstrates how folk in this subreddit absolutely DO NOT care about student learning.
and this
>just look at the typical rant posts
people are entitled to have a place to vent. if you dont need a place to vent, you probably aren't trying very hard at your job
I think a strict policy of no email submissions combined with a portal that closes on the dot is too harsh. If email submissions are not allowed, the portal should stay open for slightly late assignments. If they were late by say 1 day, they should not be penalized for 5 days’ worth just because that is when you happened to check your email.
What was your plan for dealing with the few slightly late submissions that are bound to occur?
dunno why this perfectly reasonable opinion is getting downvoted. the blame here is clearly on the OP and not the student. but i guess this sub likes to constantly circlejerk that students, management, department and everybody else but the professors are the problem.
not to mention this particular OP is constantly spamming new posts about how everything is so unfair about their life, and now decided to delete their account when called out. this sub has too many entitled people, and i suspect they are the ones downvoting...
I’m assuming that there wasn’t a clearly communicated policy of all late work receiving a zero. In other words, OP is fine with the student asking them to reopen the portal for a late submission, but will also penalize them by however many days, 1 or 5 or more, that it took OP to happen to check their email.
I’m saying the same thing as u/zsebibaba in other words
Except that the OP seemed to imply that they had a penalty structure already in place for late submissions.
If the stated penalty is 20% per day (to pick an arbitrary number), the student accepted they could take the 20% hit for submitting one day late--but got burned when the OP closed the submission portal and didn't let their student submit until four days later (80% penalty).
what? so unless the students submit their assignment before a hard deadline, they don't get to submit at all ? why does the OP have a late submission policy then? how are the students supposed to submit late if the submission portal is closed by OP ? I mean email is the only choice left.
OP is a self-entitled idiot and if you agree with them, you likely are one too. your collective attitude is just toxic to creating a good learning environment
I don't get how this is your problem. Emails, like LMS submissions, are timestamped. So it was already late when it was submitted by the timestamp of the late submission email.
If you are grading everything within your LMS, then allowing a student to submit by email lets them push their responsibility for organization onto you. Now you have to keep track of THEIR assignment being somewhere different from the rest, and not just for that one student. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
I had a student do this through the Comments section of the assignment. I called her on it.
I don't accept work via email, and I don't accept work via comments. Period. If I need work in that way, I will specifically ask for it, otherwise I won't even review it late for feedback only. LMS submission or it wasn't submitted and I take no responsibility to open it. Not being tough, there are computer security and fairness issues at play here.
👍🏾 And that is the response my the student got from me.
"On second thought, it would be unjust for me to accept late work via email, as that directly contradicts course policy and allows one student additional assignment options not available to all other students."
yea? then maybe, just maybe, dont close the submission portal like an idiot, when you already have a late-submission policy in place ?
Sometimes people will say “Here is the due date, but I will take assignments until I start grading. Turn in after the due date at your own risk.” This sounds like what OP did. They closed the portal when they started grading, but the student tried to get around that by sending it in an email.
the OP clearly stated that the submission portal closed on the deadline itself. and what has you starting to grade got to do with students submitting late ? you grade their assignment when they turn in, and give them points according to your late submission policy. it's not exactly rocket science...
Your admin must not pull the, "Well, we need to work with the students who are having a hard time and encourage them" nonsense judging from your very direct comment. By nonsense I mean asking us to ignore policy without asking us to ignore policy. Many have to walk a line between two extremes. Our admin will support us, but only if we take action. Either way a punk pulling a submit late via email turns into work if we accept it or not. I'm happy for you that you don't seem to have this particular issue.
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I agree with you, but I reread the post and nowhere does OP say the work would have been accepted late via any other method. It was a commenter who mentioned the possibility of a late policy accepting work. At least in my mind, that meant the grade book closed was "past deadline, no further submissions accepted." Now that I'm trying to find why you're assuming OP otherwise accepts late work and being so vile as to call him/her an idiot. Your name calling is exactly why I facetiously used the word punk, so it's a bit humorous that you called out that behavior, truth be told. We'd have to ask OP, but upon reread it sounds like the grading period was done with either no late work window or even the window was closed.
> I reopened the submission portal (warning them that they'd get a penalty as per dept policy), and the respective penalty was deducted from the total mark. verbatim from OP's post
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It discriminates against the students who: 1. Are too afraid/nervous/introverted to ask for special treatment. 2. Are first-gen college students and don’t know that asking for special treatment is even an option or even how to go about it. 3. Are rule-followers who take the syllabus at face value (as it should be taken).
have you ever taught a course in your life, or are you even a professor? do you know what a late submission policy is? how is it special treatment when someone submits late and their points are getting docked for it. people who submitted on time get their score out of full points. people who submit late, get a penalty. what part of that you do not understand ?
I’m not sure if you noticed this, but OP never said in their post what their late submission policy was or what the penalty for a late submission is. It could be “No late work. Late work earns a grade of 0.” For all you know. You seem to be fighting with everyone on this sub using an assumed late penalty/policy that is “x% per day” or something. It’s special treatment when someone accepts an email submission when their course policy clearly prohibits it. If the late submission policy is “No late work”, then allowing the student to submit late (even with a penalty) is special treatment. In reality, we won’t know until OP gives us more information on their exact policy.
>I reopened the submission portal (warning them that they'd get a penalty as per dept policy), and the respective penalty was deducted from the total mark. this is what the OP wrote. it can be induced from this that there is in fact a department wide policy allowing for late submissions for a penalty, which is not "no late work, late work earns a grade of 0". now if there is a late penalty in place, how are the students going to submit, if not via email, if the submission portal has been closed by an idiot of an OP ?? take your discrimination nonsense and try to cook it elsewhere.
You sound angry
Once you see enough of your colleagues on petty little power-trips you'd be angry too.
I mean if there is a late penalty in place just leave the submission portal open. in this case I would side with the student if you do not have a policy for any late homework getting a 0. In that case when the submission portal is closed there are no ifs or buts.
Yeah, that's confusing. I have my portals set to close on the days submissions would receive a zero under the late policy.
Same - I have a cut-off set that is a few days after the due date.
Same, if I had a policy of "x deducted for each day late", I would leave the portal open until the deductions would make it a zero.
this should be top comment
Yeah that’s is what I don’t understand. If I accidentally closed it (when it should be open since I accept late work) I would for sure accept it via email because it was _my_ mistake.
>I reopened the submission portal (warning them that they'd get a penalty as per dept policy) This makes no sense to me.
Why would you close the submission portal if you have a late work accepted for a penalty policy?
Thanks for reminding me to add ‘email submissions will not be accepted’ to my syllabus.
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> in that case, please make sure you leave the submission portal open and not close it like the idiot OP Is the vitriol really necessary?
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They deleted their account now :/
Have you just early-warned them of their burnout?
I think this reply was unhelpful and uncalled for. Sometimes you have shitty weeks or months and you need to vent.
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OP may indeed have issues with stress (and to echo another reply here, I don't really understand their late policy and procedures), but the way you say things matters. Your response seemed unsympathetic and a bit condescending. That may not have been what you intended, but that's what came across. This is particularly the case because we don't know what's happening in OP's life. I have a partner who can be a sounding board for teaching-related stress and issues. Maybe OP doesn't have that kind of support.
Since when are we policing how many posts someone can make?
You didn’t read this subreddit’s syllabus , did you?
Unless this post is an exact replica of the 10 other posts aforementioned, this post does not qualify as "Spam" as per this sub's syllabus.
I took to adding our university's time zone on due dates. Ugh.
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"white color job" Fantastic! Just the laugh I needed this morning. :D
Why are you so upset about a student having a different opinion than you? So what if they think it is unjust. It wasn’t, and you know it. Relax. Just because some naive student thinks something doesn’t make it true. But I do have a question: if you close the portal, how do you expect students to submit late work? It sounds like you accept it with a penalty, but have no way for them to submit. Email was a reasonable attempt on their part, given that the portal was closed. I probably would have forced them to use the portal, but treated as submitted when the email was sent (after checking to make sure the submissions are the same).
I have been in your shoes where the students just get on my last nerve. For me, it's been the chat GPT has been killing my teaching Joy. But I try not to let it get to me in a way where I take it out on the students. I don't know if it would be unjust, but it is unkind. I would side with the student on this.
everyone in this sub needs to stop whining about chatgpt and figure out a way to coexist with it. believe it or not, it is here to stay. comes across as coal miners whining about nuclear energy.
What is your way of coexisting with it? Would like to know. (I am currently away from teaching and am scared of returning because of ChatGPT…)
i dont have a blanket answer. it depends on the course. but one thing is very clear, chatgpt and other models are only going to keep getting better and better. for many courses, we will have to fundamentally rethink how they need to be taught. blaming students all the time is not going to accomplish anything. it's not like everyone on this subreddit is a teacher of the year award winner.
>chatgpt and other models are only going to keep getting better and better That doesn't mean they are ethical or that we need to embrace them. This can still be true while the fact remains that they are a cancer on education.
imagine calling netflix unethical/cancer because you run a blockbuster store. right now you are that guy...
so you say
the whole world says so. in 30 years from now chatgpt will still be around and stronger and pervasive. your opinion, on the other hand, will be... ... forgotten.
I don't see it that way. I think trying to ban AI is pointless and More in line with your metaphor. The instructor perspective it is not that simple. We see that AI has severely impacted student performance in subsequent courses worse than the pandemic did. It has enormous implications for students and that's what instructors are commenting about, myself included. It is literally no sweat off my brow to pretend that I don't see students embark on a crucial that fascinating pivotal Journey. However, I can no longer offer homework or open book projects and papers because students do not collaborate with AI, they just copy and paste from it. AI causes students to receive inflated grades and an over-inflated sense of their grasp of the material. It's not my job to teach students how to use AI more ethically. But I have been encouraging my Institution to do so.
> However, I can no longer offer homework or open book projects and papers because students do not collaborate with AI, they just copy and paste from it. yes, then adapt and evolve. stop doing what was done 10 years ago when you were a student. not calling you out personally since I dont know you, but the truth is that many people on this subreddit would rather spend their time going through the motions of teaching the same thing again and again with minimal effort than actually take some time and effort to adapt. but the real worse thing is that they will not stop whining about it...
*everyone in this sub needs to stop whining about chatgpt and figure out a way to coexist with it. believe it or not, it is here to stay. comes across as coal miners whining about nuclear energy.* I don't need to "figure out a way to coexist with it." We all already coexist with it. But there's no question it encourages behaviors that keep students from learning the material. I haven't figured out how to solve that problem, and I have every right to complain about it. If we didn't care about student learning, then none of us would be complaining about the AI bots. So maybe get off your high horse already.
>If we didn't care about student learning, then none of us would be complaining about the AI bots. So maybe get off your high horse already. this thread amply demonstrates how folk in this subreddit absolutely DO NOT care about student learning. THis thread was created by a professor who closed the submission portal and did not allow the student to submit late -- despite there being a late submission policy in place. When the student emailed the assignment, which was the obvious and correct thing to do, not only did the professor noticed it late, the idiot also went on to dock more points from the student because of it. And then creates a post whining about the student calling it "unjust", which it completely is. And the worst thing is that many people here are supporting the idiot poster, who deleted their account after making a series of whiny self-entitled posts. So do not come and tell me that people here care about student learning. most people in this subreddit are miserable NTT/adjuncts who care about whining how the system is so broken and everyone but them is at fault.
I agree with you about the flaws in the OP's approach, but honestly I think a lot of people here project their own experiences onto the situation, so they were imagining a similar, yet distinct situation where the student might indeed be in the wrong, and then commented accordingly. That just means we don't always read carefully (just like our students, lol), but it doesn't mean we all don't care about student learning. I agree with you in this case though that the OP is in the wrong here, unless there is more crucial information that has been left out that exonerates the OP (which is unlikely, since it's their post). Also, they deleted themselves shortly after so they likely know they are wrong too.
never said or meant to imply that all people here don't care about student learning. so please do not take it personally. but the average poster in this subreddit definitely does not. just look at the typical rant posts and all the garbage that people post in them.
lol, you literally said this but ok >this thread amply demonstrates how folk in this subreddit absolutely DO NOT care about student learning. and this >just look at the typical rant posts people are entitled to have a place to vent. if you dont need a place to vent, you probably aren't trying very hard at your job
what a stupid take
The student does not understand the meaning of the word just
Really. This is who you are? Cut this person - and yourself- some slack. Not worth it.
I ask the professor if he accepts work by email, before submitting work
You must be new if asking this type of question. Clearly faculty at your institution don’t hold students accountable. This should be a non issue.
I think a strict policy of no email submissions combined with a portal that closes on the dot is too harsh. If email submissions are not allowed, the portal should stay open for slightly late assignments. If they were late by say 1 day, they should not be penalized for 5 days’ worth just because that is when you happened to check your email. What was your plan for dealing with the few slightly late submissions that are bound to occur?
dunno why this perfectly reasonable opinion is getting downvoted. the blame here is clearly on the OP and not the student. but i guess this sub likes to constantly circlejerk that students, management, department and everybody else but the professors are the problem. not to mention this particular OP is constantly spamming new posts about how everything is so unfair about their life, and now decided to delete their account when called out. this sub has too many entitled people, and i suspect they are the ones downvoting...
I’m thinking that the posters on this sub may be a somewhat skewed sample set when it comes to attitudes toward students.
Disagree. Attitudes like this just encourage more shenanigans. Either it's in on time or it's not.
I’m assuming that there wasn’t a clearly communicated policy of all late work receiving a zero. In other words, OP is fine with the student asking them to reopen the portal for a late submission, but will also penalize them by however many days, 1 or 5 or more, that it took OP to happen to check their email. I’m saying the same thing as u/zsebibaba in other words
Except that the OP seemed to imply that they had a penalty structure already in place for late submissions. If the stated penalty is 20% per day (to pick an arbitrary number), the student accepted they could take the 20% hit for submitting one day late--but got burned when the OP closed the submission portal and didn't let their student submit until four days later (80% penalty).
Yes this is what I meant, maybe I communicated it poorly
I understood you. Wasn’t sure why it was being downvoted. It’s logical to me
All the downvotes are a little strange, did I hit some nerve in this sub? I don’t think most people are so harsh with their policies in real life
what? so unless the students submit their assignment before a hard deadline, they don't get to submit at all ? why does the OP have a late submission policy then? how are the students supposed to submit late if the submission portal is closed by OP ? I mean email is the only choice left. OP is a self-entitled idiot and if you agree with them, you likely are one too. your collective attitude is just toxic to creating a good learning environment
Zero on any late submission IS the correct policy for any course above 25 students.
I don't get how this is your problem. Emails, like LMS submissions, are timestamped. So it was already late when it was submitted by the timestamp of the late submission email.