You consider a prof from another department saying that as "toxic work culture"? Honestly that's pretty weak, and you are going to need some thicker skin if you call that toxic.
Good lord I just read your post again and they didn't even say do unpaid service, that was just a "vibe" you got. I wish you would have went on the rant you were thinking of doing so everyone would have seen.
There’s something I must be missing OP, as that very much reads as the standard joke that’s told at those sorts of events.
In any event if you think that’s “toxic” then you’re in for a rude awakening if/when things actually become toxic.
Maybe you had to be there but it wasn’t a joke. There was no smile or laugh or chuckle from either party. The older faculty was very serious when he said it.
Edit: I’m amazed at how many of you presume to have a better read of the situation than me. I was there!
Sure. I'll accept your read. But that doesn't make toxic work environment. Service isn't unpaid, it's literally part of your contract. And it's rarely something that people enjoy.
Did you somehow never hear about service on your way to a TT appointment? One of my standard interview questions was "what's the teaching/ research/ service time expectations?" The lowest I ever heard was 20% of my time devoted to service and I heard as high as 50%.
You're R1 I take it?
I was looking more teaching focused. My current place was described to me as 50/40/10 t/s/r. I've actually gone more 40/30/30 but I've done that by making some of my service research focused like organizing faculty writing retreats.
Yeah I’m R1. Ah ok that makes sense. Yeah most of the contracts in my department are either 80/10/10 or 85/10/5 and many of the older/tenured faculty buy out their teaching and often ‘forget’ about their service until they are voluntold to join a committee.
It's not "unpaid service". It's part of your job contract I'm sure. Unless you're an adjunct, and you state you're TT, you probably are contractually obligated to do a full day a week of service (20%). I'm guessing you're doing a lot less since you're not yet tenured (and complaining about it): That is because the tenured faculty are doing MORE to protect your untenured ass.
Calling it "toxic" is such a Gen Z thing to say. it's part of your damn job.
While you could have **gone** into a rant, it's probably better you didn't. At most institutions, offers to new hires are doing a much better job at keeping up with inflation than salaries of existing faculty.
You’re probably going to hate me but I wish they would do that to me. Because I’m brand new and an adjunct, I get blocked by “Oh, you don’t get paid enough to go to those meetings.” Like yeah but I would like some experience on how shit does or does not get done around here.
You're absolutely right. Because I was in a large department, I volunteered to be the adjunct rep on departmental (and even university-wide) committees and then contributed to them by running surveys and compiling data etc. It turns out that some hiring committees thought it showed not only that I have experience in admin but also that I am collegial person who would do their fair share of service -- I got shortlisted at most SLACs I applied to and their feedback to me has included a snippet about this, and the department I landed has mentioned how my general personality was an important (though not the decisive) factor in hiring me. So, if you can volunteer to represent adjuncts in your department (or even in larger groupings), do it! And if that kind of role doesn't exist, you could always suggest creating one, maybe including both adjuncts and postdocs or any non-full-time faculty (including doctoral students who teach).
I really appreciate this approach. If this sort of volunteer work is useful in advancing your goals, then TT faculty should create those opportunities. My only fear is that this could be very exploitative. As long as there is zero pressure for adjuncts to do this type of work, I'd support that. One meeting I was in I heard the phrase "we could ask adjuncts to..." and I said absolutely not.
Oh, absolutely. There was plenty of things I said a firm no to, but I did sometimes feel the pressure as well - and some faculty were better than others as some did actively roll their eyes whenever I spoke, but many also occasionally emailed me to say that they appreciated my input in X or Y meeting.
Well, they were joking, at least somewhat. If you are TT you are expected to do teaching, research, and service. It's not "unpaid" but the amount of service varies by department and institution.
Talk to your chair. Find out your department's service expectations for TT folks.
I am a chair and I keep track of the service TT folks are doing. I tell the TT faculty to say "my chair told me I have to get his approval before taking on any more service" when they feel they are getting asked to do too much (or even getting asked to do something they really don't want to do).
Where I work the really big service requests come about 5 minutes after you get tenure. Lol.
I get that it’s not enjoyable to be on multiple committees but that is part of the job. What do you think everyone else is doing? You need to suck it up and then, once you have served on them, you can cycle off of some.
I have had a bad day, so, well, what discipline do you work in that "I could have went" is acceptable grammar? "Could have *gone.*"
Also, you don't yet know toxic work culture.
I don't necessarily agree with the people questioning that this constitutes part of a toxic work culture. Not all workplace toxicity is overt bullying or violence. Where I work it's just apathy and an hyper-individualistic, isolating work culture. People are perfectly polite and so on but more than happy to turn a blind eye to favouritism, grossly uneven workload, social exclusion of colleagues that don't "fit", and other issues which kill off the career prospects of early career people before they've started.
Edit: Just to add, it's a whole different position to be given opportunities to contribute because you're treated as a valued colleague and you can build your CV, and be dumped on by wolves licking their lips because they know you can't say no and they'll get a boost to their research time at the expense of you suspending yours.
I can relate. What you say perfectly describes my former department culture. I didn’t let it bother me for the first decade or so, but it was really wearing on me when I finally retired.
Man I thought the Mike/Michael thread from a few days ago was really something in regards to going to HR, this one is straight-up wild. Whoo boy OP must see toxic culture everywhere they look
I had the same hazing, too. I had Faculty who were partially on charge of evaluations and the like popping into my office with the old "you don't HAVE to do this, but it sure would be nice and good to put in your yearly report..."
In the end, I eventually became older Faculty and I feel sorry for the new kids. I try to encourage some of us old farts to pick up the slack, but it just seems ingrained in the culture.
>unpaid service Is service not explicitly part of your job?
You consider a prof from another department saying that as "toxic work culture"? Honestly that's pretty weak, and you are going to need some thicker skin if you call that toxic. Good lord I just read your post again and they didn't even say do unpaid service, that was just a "vibe" you got. I wish you would have went on the rant you were thinking of doing so everyone would have seen.
There’s something I must be missing OP, as that very much reads as the standard joke that’s told at those sorts of events. In any event if you think that’s “toxic” then you’re in for a rude awakening if/when things actually become toxic.
If a joke flies over someone's head is it still funny?
Does the dog still want the sandwich I eat at work?
Maybe you had to be there but it wasn’t a joke. There was no smile or laugh or chuckle from either party. The older faculty was very serious when he said it. Edit: I’m amazed at how many of you presume to have a better read of the situation than me. I was there!
The point is that you seem to misunderstand what the job of TT faculty actually is.
Sure. I'll accept your read. But that doesn't make toxic work environment. Service isn't unpaid, it's literally part of your contract. And it's rarely something that people enjoy. Did you somehow never hear about service on your way to a TT appointment? One of my standard interview questions was "what's the teaching/ research/ service time expectations?" The lowest I ever heard was 20% of my time devoted to service and I heard as high as 50%.
Same. Wow though, 20-50 seems like a lot to me! Mind if I ask your field? My current department has faculty at 5-10% service (biomedical engineering)
You're R1 I take it? I was looking more teaching focused. My current place was described to me as 50/40/10 t/s/r. I've actually gone more 40/30/30 but I've done that by making some of my service research focused like organizing faculty writing retreats.
Yeah I’m R1. Ah ok that makes sense. Yeah most of the contracts in my department are either 80/10/10 or 85/10/5 and many of the older/tenured faculty buy out their teaching and often ‘forget’ about their service until they are voluntold to join a committee.
It came across to me as a Leslie Nielson deadpan sarcasm. It doesn't need to be accompanied with a smile or laugh or chuckle.
It's not "unpaid service". It's part of your job contract I'm sure. Unless you're an adjunct, and you state you're TT, you probably are contractually obligated to do a full day a week of service (20%). I'm guessing you're doing a lot less since you're not yet tenured (and complaining about it): That is because the tenured faculty are doing MORE to protect your untenured ass. Calling it "toxic" is such a Gen Z thing to say. it's part of your damn job.
Sounds like friendly joking to me.
While you could have **gone** into a rant, it's probably better you didn't. At most institutions, offers to new hires are doing a much better job at keeping up with inflation than salaries of existing faculty.
Omg this one’s green!
You’re probably going to hate me but I wish they would do that to me. Because I’m brand new and an adjunct, I get blocked by “Oh, you don’t get paid enough to go to those meetings.” Like yeah but I would like some experience on how shit does or does not get done around here.
You're absolutely right. Because I was in a large department, I volunteered to be the adjunct rep on departmental (and even university-wide) committees and then contributed to them by running surveys and compiling data etc. It turns out that some hiring committees thought it showed not only that I have experience in admin but also that I am collegial person who would do their fair share of service -- I got shortlisted at most SLACs I applied to and their feedback to me has included a snippet about this, and the department I landed has mentioned how my general personality was an important (though not the decisive) factor in hiring me. So, if you can volunteer to represent adjuncts in your department (or even in larger groupings), do it! And if that kind of role doesn't exist, you could always suggest creating one, maybe including both adjuncts and postdocs or any non-full-time faculty (including doctoral students who teach).
I really appreciate this approach. If this sort of volunteer work is useful in advancing your goals, then TT faculty should create those opportunities. My only fear is that this could be very exploitative. As long as there is zero pressure for adjuncts to do this type of work, I'd support that. One meeting I was in I heard the phrase "we could ask adjuncts to..." and I said absolutely not.
Oh, absolutely. There was plenty of things I said a firm no to, but I did sometimes feel the pressure as well - and some faculty were better than others as some did actively roll their eyes whenever I spoke, but many also occasionally emailed me to say that they appreciated my input in X or Y meeting.
If you think that’s toxic, wait.
[удалено]
Holy shit I could tell some stories about real toxicity. Someone making a joke? Jesus, what have we become.
Well, they were joking, at least somewhat. If you are TT you are expected to do teaching, research, and service. It's not "unpaid" but the amount of service varies by department and institution. Talk to your chair. Find out your department's service expectations for TT folks. I am a chair and I keep track of the service TT folks are doing. I tell the TT faculty to say "my chair told me I have to get his approval before taking on any more service" when they feel they are getting asked to do too much (or even getting asked to do something they really don't want to do). Where I work the really big service requests come about 5 minutes after you get tenure. Lol.
I get that it’s not enjoyable to be on multiple committees but that is part of the job. What do you think everyone else is doing? You need to suck it up and then, once you have served on them, you can cycle off of some.
Bruh
I have had a bad day, so, well, what discipline do you work in that "I could have went" is acceptable grammar? "Could have *gone.*" Also, you don't yet know toxic work culture.
I don't necessarily agree with the people questioning that this constitutes part of a toxic work culture. Not all workplace toxicity is overt bullying or violence. Where I work it's just apathy and an hyper-individualistic, isolating work culture. People are perfectly polite and so on but more than happy to turn a blind eye to favouritism, grossly uneven workload, social exclusion of colleagues that don't "fit", and other issues which kill off the career prospects of early career people before they've started. Edit: Just to add, it's a whole different position to be given opportunities to contribute because you're treated as a valued colleague and you can build your CV, and be dumped on by wolves licking their lips because they know you can't say no and they'll get a boost to their research time at the expense of you suspending yours.
Yes. This was my first TT job and it was hella lonely.
I can relate. What you say perfectly describes my former department culture. I didn’t let it bother me for the first decade or so, but it was really wearing on me when I finally retired.
Man I thought the Mike/Michael thread from a few days ago was really something in regards to going to HR, this one is straight-up wild. Whoo boy OP must see toxic culture everywhere they look
I had the same hazing, too. I had Faculty who were partially on charge of evaluations and the like popping into my office with the old "you don't HAVE to do this, but it sure would be nice and good to put in your yearly report..." In the end, I eventually became older Faculty and I feel sorry for the new kids. I try to encourage some of us old farts to pick up the slack, but it just seems ingrained in the culture.
I'd say they were probably kidding/deadpanning/being sarcastic.