I have this conversation with students all the time in certain CC math courses with known issues in the placement assessment.
In one on one conversations, I tell them what their grade is and what it would take to get their grade to passing. I explain what support resources are available (ex: tutoring center, writing center). I also explain that they would likely need to put in more time/energy than students who have [whatever prerequisite skill]. I then let them know that dropping/withdrawing is an option and what the deadline is but that it is ultimately their decision to stay in the class.
EDITED TO ADD: I always tell them to talk to an adviser and financial aid before deciding to drop the class. There are credit limits for receiving financial aid for certain students.
Same. I don’t generally advise students directly to drop. I’m at a CC as well and there are so many possible funding sources, all with different requirements. I don’t know what all of the requirements are, nor do I have any idea how they’re paying for classes. On top of that, I don’t have a lot of confidence that they’re 100% aware of whatever requirements they have to meet in order to continue to receive funding.
What I do instead is point out to them that I noticed they seem to be struggling with X and Y prereq skills, tell them that I’m not sure there is enough time in the semester for them to get all the way caught up to where they need to be, then say that if they are considering withdrawing, they should first reach out to advising and financial aid to figure out what the best option for them is based on their individual circumstances.
I do this all the time, and I've got the data to back it up. If you're getting 40% at midterm, I can even tell you the probability you'll pass the course - it's not zero, but it's close enough. Statistically, you are not the 1/1000 students who will somehow get it together and scrape out a D in the class, and that's the best-case scenario.
> I do this all the time, and I've got the data to back it up.
Agree with this. I regulary have conversations with students saying "you need to recognize that the choice you made three weeks ago to not do [thing] was essentially a choice to fail the class."
Yup you need a personal touch with these things so they can recover and be aware that we DO want students to succeed even if it means telling them to do a structured retreat and regroup now rather than face a catastrophe at the end of the semester.
When I broach the topic of dropping a class, I usually present it as one of multiple options. For example, here's what you would need to do to pass this class. If you want to go that route, come to office hours and let's discuss how you can get there. If what it takes to pass right now does not feel realistic right now, you may want to consider dropping the class.
The hope is to avoid coming across as discouraging but also not sugar coat where the student stands.
(If it is not mathematically possible for a student to pass, or if it would require something completely unrealistic on their end, e.g., earning 95% on all remaining work when they have a 35% in the class, I will be more direct and encourage them to withdraw from the class.)
I don't tell students to drop. I just tell them their current grade and let them know what assignments/ essays are left (i.e. passing is impossible if you remain on this trajectory).
I don't tell students to drop directly because I've heard students weaponize that conversation in a "they don't believe in me"/ "they're discriminatory" sort of way. So I just avoid that.
Exactly! I am a department chair and I cannot tell you how many times the last year this was used against a faculty member.
I have definitely recommended students drop and they mostly sit in there anyway hoping for miracles that never happen.
I usually do. I would much rather have the student take a "W" and come back again next semester than have a "D" or an "F". Often, we are taught to think of ourselves as the "saviors" of our students and do everything we can in our power to retain them and have them succeed. I have been that instructor and what I see is just having the student rush a bunch of work that causing a lot of stress with them just ending up with a "C" or worse. Some do take my advice and drop and them come back ready to go again next term with a better success rate
Hi routinely inform all of my students of how they’re doing by email in the first two or three weeks of the semester, and then at least once and often twice more before the withdrawal deadline. I therefore provide students abundant warnings and information on how to course–correct if they are drifting into F territory. I consider it just closing the loop by letting the ones who realistically cannot pass know this prior to the deadline. Only a small fraction of students ever actually do withdrawal; the same careless attitude that caused them to ignore the earlier warnings doesn’t improve.
I had advising tell me once I wasn't allowed to directly recommend dropping a course for whatever logic they had (it related in part to financial aid requirements). I was able to say "you're not on track to pass and I don't see a path forward where you earn a passing grade this term, please contact advising to discuss options."
I contact student services with the academic referral. I tell them that the student is not likely to pass my class and give them the reasons.
They are able, and have the time, to talk to the student regarding how it will impact them if they stay in and do not pass, or barely make it out. They also can help the student look at other paths towards success.
I'm always going to have the conversation with the student as well, but I'm a strong believer in making the academic referral and having that department do the heavy lifting.
After they pay full tuition for an F and pay again to take the class over they will probably come around- but you are correct if this is their first F in college they will take it personally and likely out on OP. Still the right call tho.
yes, you won't help them by giving them an F, that would hurt their gpa, and you certainly should not pass them
just tell them "it is getting to the point where you realistically cannot pass, so you should withdraw to save your gpa. you should take composition 100 instead" or whatever the course they should take
Does your university have a writing center that you can direct this student to? You do not have to take on the personal burden of supporting this student, but I imagine there are services that your university offers that can help?
I'm surprised that everyone seems in agreement! I've been advised to never recommend that a student drop, because (as has been mentioned) there may be financial aid or housing issues, but also because you may delay their graduation if they drop. Of course if they fail the class their graduation would be delayed too, but if they drop there's no irrefutable proof that they would have failed.
You may have institutional policy surrounding this so I would check with a few others first. In Texas there’s a law the student can only have 6 “W” grades in their entire degree. (Or what? I honestly don’t know.) But at our institution you DO NOT advise a student to drop because of the drama that goes with that. You can have all the conversations you want surrounding their chances for success, and “lead the horse to water”, but when they ask you if they should drop it’s “You’re the only one who can make that decision for yourself based on what’s best for you blah blah blah”.
I don't usually tell a specific student to drop a class unprompted.
Instead, I'll usually tell the whole class what I think the parameters are for successfully finishing the course ("your exam grades should be ≥60%" etc.), and then remind them that all of their grades are posted in Canvas so they can figure out where they stand.
If a particular student asks me point-blank what to do (with enough time for "improvement"), I'll tell them to decide on a goal for the Next Thing (probably an upcoming exam). If they reach or exceed that goal, I recommend staying in. If they miss that goal, then drop. But I always present it as a choice or a fork in the road and leave it to them to figure out what to do.
Putting aside whether it's *right* or good for the student, some schools/departments are pretty weird about this and highly frown upon "'encouraging' a student to drop/withdraw." Some even outright tell faculty not to do it.
I say something like "students in your situation often choose to drop", and suggest they talk to their advisor about what makes sense for them. I have also deployed "I'm sorry to be so direct but I believe you value honesty"
for the kind of struggling you describe I always suggest the student retake the prerequisite course(s), in addition to dropping the course they’re thusly struggling in.
I've had students that repeat a class multiple (I think the record is 8) times. Generally, if you look at their transcripts they also repeated the prerequisite.
When you talk to them and ask them why they aren't showing up for class, they'll say they already heard all those lectures the first time they took the class. In their mind, they did poorly because of the homework/exam/whatever. It doesn't seem to register they didn't acquire the knowledge to start with that would have allowed them to do well on those items.
Yes it is.
I will frequently recommend that a student drop the course if they are not passing. Sometimes it is the compassionate thing to do.
Reasons to tell the student:
It can help preserve their gpa.
They might do better in a traditional length course.
They need additional support or take the prerequisite course.
I am happy to recommend that students from my class, but in the end, it is their decision whether they do or don't. I do emphasize to the student that I have years of experience so I know what I'm talking about about. Most of them ignore me and end up failing. 🤷♀️
(Not a professor) I teach AP classes in high school. I occasionally recommend students to drop my class right at the start. We do not screen with prerequisite grades to enroll. I give a diagnostic test, and discuss with low scoring students the specific online remedial work they’d need to do on their own to catch up. Or they can drop the class, their call. I follow up with an email to the student, their parents, and the guidance counselor. The ones that stick around know they’re in for a lot of work and often make great strides that year. Some parents get a tutor asap after my email. I do what I can in class to help them of course, but have 35 students and can’t give them 1:1 all the time. I like taking a proactive approach. No one can complain that failing was a surprise.
I regret not encouraging some of my students from last semester to drop. Failing classes affects GPA, and if their GPA is too low they can get suspended / kicked out of the university.
Yes. Explain that they aren't setting themselves up for success, it isn't the right fit, or that they might be overloaded. Recommend they talk to an academic advisor, even help them make an appointment. Lay out the grading situation for them and let them know what is possible and what is probable. Students usually break down into tears but appreciate your frank honesty in about a week or so after they work through the emotion.
This is called SUNK COST FALLACY.
The sunk cost fallacy is a common pitfall in decision-making where we continue to invest time, money, or effort into something simply because we've already put something into it, even if it's no longer the best option. It's basically throwing good money after bad.
People often do this with bad investments of money. Instead of cutting their losses and reinvesting into something that will get them a return, they want to wait until the bad investment turns around, which is usually never does.
I highly recommend this book to students and reference it when appropriate:
[https://dutraeconomicus.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/you-are-not-so-smart.pdf](https://dutraeconomicus.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/you-are-not-so-smart.pdf)
The student needs to be aware of potential consequences for loan requirements. Other than that, I don't see a problem with recommending that they drop the class.
I now create an Excel spreadsheet with all of the grades blank but correctly weighted and make that available on day 1 for students. The week of the drop/withdraw with a W deadline I'll enter the grades of students on the line of failing, fill in similar grades for the remainder of the semester and will let them know: there's no mathematical way for you to pass this class, you may want to drop so it doesn't pull down your GPA. I include a copy of their spreadsheet so there are no questions. I'm not going to tell you to drop because you're an adult who can make decisions and live with the consequences. It usually works out okay.
Yes very much so and you should entrain in their advisor, handler or other success coach if they have one and show where they need to be ready to jump back on the horse. A constructive pull back fix any deficiencies is much better than basically letting a student fail.
It is fine to tell them that they are not prepared for the class and that is why they are struggling. Let them know that dropping the class is a sensible thing to do in this situation. But also tell them the appropriate thing to do to become prepared to take the class. Then the route they need to take doesn't look so scary, and the route they were on doesn't look as unchangeable.
Yes. I do this all the time. I think students appreciate it. However, I do provide them with a positive affirmation and not just send a negative message. I try to find something that they did really well. Then I also provide the resources that will help them be more successful. Sometimes it's just a matter of them talking with an advisor and redeveloping a degree plan. A lot of times students will hop prerequisites and a thoughtful degree plan pathway for the courses that are their Majors or something they think is more fun. Other times I will send them specific resources targeted for the issue that I see in the class. I always tell them that they are welcome to stay if they are enjoying the class it's always a pleasure to have them in it but I wanted to make them aware of the impending withdrawal deadline.
Yes. Be honest BUT also make a helpful suggestion. For example, “you are lacking the skills to succeed in this course, specifically skill X, but if you take course Y you can gain those skills and move forward.” You are ultimately saving the student time, money, and heartache, while simultaneously setting them up for future improvement. That is the job.
I've worked at at least one institution where there was an actual rule against suggesting that they drop. So you sort of had to show them the facts and let them draw their own conclusions.
I actively recommend dropping the class to students that have no chance of passing or are very unlikely to pass. I do this one week in advance of the deadline, and point out what the factual chances of passing are for each of them in an email (e.g.: you cannot miss any more classes and need 100% on every assignment), and then tell them that it is in their best interest to drop to save their money and GPA. Some of them drop, some beg for leniency, which I refuse because the ones that ask for preferential treatment are always the ones that didn’t attend class and didn’t submit any assignments. In your case, it seems to be a skills and not a discipline issue, so you might want to point out the resources that will help them reach the skill level required to pass your class (e.g.: writing center, a good book on the topic, etc.) and invite them to take it again when they have improved their skills.
Yes, I've done this. I've learned to intuit when students just aren't going to cut it. Additionally, when students who have fallen way behind ask if they can hand in past work to catch up, I usually give them a subtle "test" by proposing something like, "well, before you worry about your past work, how about you work on the assignment that is currently open, and if you do well, we can discuss your attendance and past work." About 85% of the time, these students don't hand in the current assignment.
I have this conversation with students all the time in certain CC math courses with known issues in the placement assessment. In one on one conversations, I tell them what their grade is and what it would take to get their grade to passing. I explain what support resources are available (ex: tutoring center, writing center). I also explain that they would likely need to put in more time/energy than students who have [whatever prerequisite skill]. I then let them know that dropping/withdrawing is an option and what the deadline is but that it is ultimately their decision to stay in the class. EDITED TO ADD: I always tell them to talk to an adviser and financial aid before deciding to drop the class. There are credit limits for receiving financial aid for certain students.
Same. I don’t generally advise students directly to drop. I’m at a CC as well and there are so many possible funding sources, all with different requirements. I don’t know what all of the requirements are, nor do I have any idea how they’re paying for classes. On top of that, I don’t have a lot of confidence that they’re 100% aware of whatever requirements they have to meet in order to continue to receive funding. What I do instead is point out to them that I noticed they seem to be struggling with X and Y prereq skills, tell them that I’m not sure there is enough time in the semester for them to get all the way caught up to where they need to be, then say that if they are considering withdrawing, they should first reach out to advising and financial aid to figure out what the best option for them is based on their individual circumstances.
> I tell them what their grade is and what it would take to get their grade to passing "So you're saying that I have a chance!"
Yep, that’s exactly what they take from the discussion.
But you said I could pass!
I do this all the time, and I've got the data to back it up. If you're getting 40% at midterm, I can even tell you the probability you'll pass the course - it's not zero, but it's close enough. Statistically, you are not the 1/1000 students who will somehow get it together and scrape out a D in the class, and that's the best-case scenario.
> I do this all the time, and I've got the data to back it up. Agree with this. I regulary have conversations with students saying "you need to recognize that the choice you made three weeks ago to not do [thing] was essentially a choice to fail the class."
I have done it but not by email - I have the student come and talk to them in person
Yup you need a personal touch with these things so they can recover and be aware that we DO want students to succeed even if it means telling them to do a structured retreat and regroup now rather than face a catastrophe at the end of the semester.
When I broach the topic of dropping a class, I usually present it as one of multiple options. For example, here's what you would need to do to pass this class. If you want to go that route, come to office hours and let's discuss how you can get there. If what it takes to pass right now does not feel realistic right now, you may want to consider dropping the class. The hope is to avoid coming across as discouraging but also not sugar coat where the student stands. (If it is not mathematically possible for a student to pass, or if it would require something completely unrealistic on their end, e.g., earning 95% on all remaining work when they have a 35% in the class, I will be more direct and encourage them to withdraw from the class.)
I do this as well, suggesting that it's better to have a W than an F.
I don't tell students to drop. I just tell them their current grade and let them know what assignments/ essays are left (i.e. passing is impossible if you remain on this trajectory). I don't tell students to drop directly because I've heard students weaponize that conversation in a "they don't believe in me"/ "they're discriminatory" sort of way. So I just avoid that.
Exactly! I am a department chair and I cannot tell you how many times the last year this was used against a faculty member. I have definitely recommended students drop and they mostly sit in there anyway hoping for miracles that never happen.
I usually do. I would much rather have the student take a "W" and come back again next semester than have a "D" or an "F". Often, we are taught to think of ourselves as the "saviors" of our students and do everything we can in our power to retain them and have them succeed. I have been that instructor and what I see is just having the student rush a bunch of work that causing a lot of stress with them just ending up with a "C" or worse. Some do take my advice and drop and them come back ready to go again next term with a better success rate
Hi routinely inform all of my students of how they’re doing by email in the first two or three weeks of the semester, and then at least once and often twice more before the withdrawal deadline. I therefore provide students abundant warnings and information on how to course–correct if they are drifting into F territory. I consider it just closing the loop by letting the ones who realistically cannot pass know this prior to the deadline. Only a small fraction of students ever actually do withdrawal; the same careless attitude that caused them to ignore the earlier warnings doesn’t improve.
I had advising tell me once I wasn't allowed to directly recommend dropping a course for whatever logic they had (it related in part to financial aid requirements). I was able to say "you're not on track to pass and I don't see a path forward where you earn a passing grade this term, please contact advising to discuss options."
I contact student services with the academic referral. I tell them that the student is not likely to pass my class and give them the reasons. They are able, and have the time, to talk to the student regarding how it will impact them if they stay in and do not pass, or barely make it out. They also can help the student look at other paths towards success. I'm always going to have the conversation with the student as well, but I'm a strong believer in making the academic referral and having that department do the heavy lifting.
Good idea!
Yes. I would consider it a mercy. But I’m not sure if a student would be mature enough to see it like that.
After they pay full tuition for an F and pay again to take the class over they will probably come around- but you are correct if this is their first F in college they will take it personally and likely out on OP. Still the right call tho.
Always when you see them illprepared.
yes, you won't help them by giving them an F, that would hurt their gpa, and you certainly should not pass them just tell them "it is getting to the point where you realistically cannot pass, so you should withdraw to save your gpa. you should take composition 100 instead" or whatever the course they should take
Does your university have a writing center that you can direct this student to? You do not have to take on the personal burden of supporting this student, but I imagine there are services that your university offers that can help?
I'm surprised that everyone seems in agreement! I've been advised to never recommend that a student drop, because (as has been mentioned) there may be financial aid or housing issues, but also because you may delay their graduation if they drop. Of course if they fail the class their graduation would be delayed too, but if they drop there's no irrefutable proof that they would have failed.
I think it’s appropriate to recommend and doing them a favor. However I would ask them to come to your office hours or at least do a Zoom
You may have institutional policy surrounding this so I would check with a few others first. In Texas there’s a law the student can only have 6 “W” grades in their entire degree. (Or what? I honestly don’t know.) But at our institution you DO NOT advise a student to drop because of the drama that goes with that. You can have all the conversations you want surrounding their chances for success, and “lead the horse to water”, but when they ask you if they should drop it’s “You’re the only one who can make that decision for yourself based on what’s best for you blah blah blah”.
I don't usually tell a specific student to drop a class unprompted. Instead, I'll usually tell the whole class what I think the parameters are for successfully finishing the course ("your exam grades should be ≥60%" etc.), and then remind them that all of their grades are posted in Canvas so they can figure out where they stand. If a particular student asks me point-blank what to do (with enough time for "improvement"), I'll tell them to decide on a goal for the Next Thing (probably an upcoming exam). If they reach or exceed that goal, I recommend staying in. If they miss that goal, then drop. But I always present it as a choice or a fork in the road and leave it to them to figure out what to do.
Putting aside whether it's *right* or good for the student, some schools/departments are pretty weird about this and highly frown upon "'encouraging' a student to drop/withdraw." Some even outright tell faculty not to do it.
I say something like "students in your situation often choose to drop", and suggest they talk to their advisor about what makes sense for them. I have also deployed "I'm sorry to be so direct but I believe you value honesty"
for the kind of struggling you describe I always suggest the student retake the prerequisite course(s), in addition to dropping the course they’re thusly struggling in.
I've had students that repeat a class multiple (I think the record is 8) times. Generally, if you look at their transcripts they also repeated the prerequisite. When you talk to them and ask them why they aren't showing up for class, they'll say they already heard all those lectures the first time they took the class. In their mind, they did poorly because of the homework/exam/whatever. It doesn't seem to register they didn't acquire the knowledge to start with that would have allowed them to do well on those items.
Yes it is. I will frequently recommend that a student drop the course if they are not passing. Sometimes it is the compassionate thing to do. Reasons to tell the student: It can help preserve their gpa. They might do better in a traditional length course. They need additional support or take the prerequisite course.
I am happy to recommend that students from my class, but in the end, it is their decision whether they do or don't. I do emphasize to the student that I have years of experience so I know what I'm talking about about. Most of them ignore me and end up failing. 🤷♀️
(Not a professor) I teach AP classes in high school. I occasionally recommend students to drop my class right at the start. We do not screen with prerequisite grades to enroll. I give a diagnostic test, and discuss with low scoring students the specific online remedial work they’d need to do on their own to catch up. Or they can drop the class, their call. I follow up with an email to the student, their parents, and the guidance counselor. The ones that stick around know they’re in for a lot of work and often make great strides that year. Some parents get a tutor asap after my email. I do what I can in class to help them of course, but have 35 students and can’t give them 1:1 all the time. I like taking a proactive approach. No one can complain that failing was a surprise.
I regret not encouraging some of my students from last semester to drop. Failing classes affects GPA, and if their GPA is too low they can get suspended / kicked out of the university.
Absolutely, and kind.
Yes. Explain that they aren't setting themselves up for success, it isn't the right fit, or that they might be overloaded. Recommend they talk to an academic advisor, even help them make an appointment. Lay out the grading situation for them and let them know what is possible and what is probable. Students usually break down into tears but appreciate your frank honesty in about a week or so after they work through the emotion. This is called SUNK COST FALLACY. The sunk cost fallacy is a common pitfall in decision-making where we continue to invest time, money, or effort into something simply because we've already put something into it, even if it's no longer the best option. It's basically throwing good money after bad. People often do this with bad investments of money. Instead of cutting their losses and reinvesting into something that will get them a return, they want to wait until the bad investment turns around, which is usually never does. I highly recommend this book to students and reference it when appropriate: [https://dutraeconomicus.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/you-are-not-so-smart.pdf](https://dutraeconomicus.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/you-are-not-so-smart.pdf)
I often fall victim to that fallacy when investing in slot machines.
It's just gotta payoff, just one more pull !!!! :) Nooooo!!!! One more, just one more.
The student needs to be aware of potential consequences for loan requirements. Other than that, I don't see a problem with recommending that they drop the class.
I now create an Excel spreadsheet with all of the grades blank but correctly weighted and make that available on day 1 for students. The week of the drop/withdraw with a W deadline I'll enter the grades of students on the line of failing, fill in similar grades for the remainder of the semester and will let them know: there's no mathematical way for you to pass this class, you may want to drop so it doesn't pull down your GPA. I include a copy of their spreadsheet so there are no questions. I'm not going to tell you to drop because you're an adult who can make decisions and live with the consequences. It usually works out okay.
Yes very much so and you should entrain in their advisor, handler or other success coach if they have one and show where they need to be ready to jump back on the horse. A constructive pull back fix any deficiencies is much better than basically letting a student fail.
It is fine to tell them that they are not prepared for the class and that is why they are struggling. Let them know that dropping the class is a sensible thing to do in this situation. But also tell them the appropriate thing to do to become prepared to take the class. Then the route they need to take doesn't look so scary, and the route they were on doesn't look as unchangeable.
Yes. I do this all the time. I think students appreciate it. However, I do provide them with a positive affirmation and not just send a negative message. I try to find something that they did really well. Then I also provide the resources that will help them be more successful. Sometimes it's just a matter of them talking with an advisor and redeveloping a degree plan. A lot of times students will hop prerequisites and a thoughtful degree plan pathway for the courses that are their Majors or something they think is more fun. Other times I will send them specific resources targeted for the issue that I see in the class. I always tell them that they are welcome to stay if they are enjoying the class it's always a pleasure to have them in it but I wanted to make them aware of the impending withdrawal deadline.
Yes. Be honest BUT also make a helpful suggestion. For example, “you are lacking the skills to succeed in this course, specifically skill X, but if you take course Y you can gain those skills and move forward.” You are ultimately saving the student time, money, and heartache, while simultaneously setting them up for future improvement. That is the job.
I've worked at at least one institution where there was an actual rule against suggesting that they drop. So you sort of had to show them the facts and let them draw their own conclusions.
I actively recommend dropping the class to students that have no chance of passing or are very unlikely to pass. I do this one week in advance of the deadline, and point out what the factual chances of passing are for each of them in an email (e.g.: you cannot miss any more classes and need 100% on every assignment), and then tell them that it is in their best interest to drop to save their money and GPA. Some of them drop, some beg for leniency, which I refuse because the ones that ask for preferential treatment are always the ones that didn’t attend class and didn’t submit any assignments. In your case, it seems to be a skills and not a discipline issue, so you might want to point out the resources that will help them reach the skill level required to pass your class (e.g.: writing center, a good book on the topic, etc.) and invite them to take it again when they have improved their skills.
Yes, I've done this. I've learned to intuit when students just aren't going to cut it. Additionally, when students who have fallen way behind ask if they can hand in past work to catch up, I usually give them a subtle "test" by proposing something like, "well, before you worry about your past work, how about you work on the assignment that is currently open, and if you do well, we can discuss your attendance and past work." About 85% of the time, these students don't hand in the current assignment.
Absolutely
Sure. I advise students to drop my class all the time. Always make it clear it is their choice though.