Honestly I don’t care what credentials you have. Can you do the job or what?
I’ve met college grads who can barely write a hello world and overcompetent boot camp grads, self taught teens, and plenty in between. A college grad may be a safer bet, but lots of people know their shit.
I'm wrapping a ms at a prestigious institution. There are a few people in my cohort I'm not entirely certain aren't potatoes in people suits. I seriously don't know how they made it through as the program beat the pride, and ever living fuck, out of me. Yet here we are "collaborating" on a project where they are capable of literally fucking nothing.
Which is not at all to say that education has no merits. However the entire universe seems to be somewhat fond of statistics, and so should we be.
Money == tutors == someone to do your homework for you. And also help you prep for tests in a targeted way, to maximize your score with a minimum of effort.
They can't bring that person with them to the group project, so they are suddenly and inexplicably useless.
Yeah, my senior was a nursery graduate. Didn't enjoy nurse job, took bootcamp, then become SE. Bruh, he's even better than majority senior in that company that have CS graduate.
I think this is why the leet code grind came about. Degrees just get you in the door, once the interview starts nobody gives a hoot about your desploma, GPA, etc.
Yes, if your job is software engineer, then you are a software engineer. Anyone who gets upset with people using the title engineer 'without earning it' is just an insecure asshole
Edit: grammar
Maybe it differs by state (and almost certainly by country), but you have to be registered as an engineer where I am, or a graduate of an accredited program, regardless of job title. Even if your job says software engineer, if you're not registered you are legally not one.
There was a famous case where a Swedish engineer, living in Oregon, was fined for calling himself an engineer and doing math. He fought his right to call himself an engineer and won - sort of.
“Licensing red-tape violate First Amendment, says court in battle over timing algorithm”
https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_license_laws/
https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/21/traffic_lights_changed/
In this particular state, the issue was actually with the general term ‘engineer’ not being allowed without licensing. (Which I, being an engineer myself, finds both ridiculous and offensive.)
And even worse: He was not just fined for calling himself an engineer. He was also fined for documenting a flaw, which he had found in calculations behind traffic light timings, without being a licensed engineer in that state. So they were basically trying to suppress his right to free speech: “If you are not a licensed engineer, you are not allowed to point out that an engineer made mistakes.”
Practically speaking does it matter, at all?
Certified Software engineers aren’t required to sign off on projects like civil engineers are. If the title doesn’t carry any special powers or responsibilities then the “right” to use it doesn’t really matter
Sign off does exist in a lot of engineering companies as a form of delegated authority, and those businesses may (arguably should) have policies about who can hold a delegated authority and the level of qualification or certification they must possess.
Depends where you are, Engineer is a licensed title across Canada, and employers who employ non-licensed individuals (or individuals who present themselves as engineers w/out a P.Eng) *will* be fined by the relevant provincial body. [This applies to software engineers too](https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#software)
It's cultural. In Finland you can but "Prof." instead of Mr or Ms on your passport, in France engineer is a title only granted by the "Greater School Conference" and is almost as protected as Md, and proff is an official title only those with some teaching career in uni can have. Anyway, nothing insecure in wanting to dissociate the job title with the person title. For them it's like medals they collected I guess.
> Anyone who gets upset with people using the title engineer 'without earning it' is just an insecure asshole
Then why won't they let me drive the train!?
Yeah engineering is full of insecurity, it’s a gang of people who were in the top 10% of their high schools who suddenly weren’t the smartest kid in school. A bunch get gatekeepy and weird because the term engineer becomes the new way they can show off that they’re smarter than everybody else.
I have an engineering degree so I lived this and am not shitting on them, just saying what I experienced haha
So if your job title is "lawyer" then you're a lawyer even if you don't have a law degree?
If someone decides that your job title is "doctor" then you're a doctor if you don't have a medical or doctoral degree?
Anyone can have a job, that doesn't mean it matches some objective standard.
I see plenty of "housewives" calling themselves "domestic engineers." That holds about as much weight as your label.
You need a license to practice law or medicine. You don’t a license to be a software engineer. There’s no formal standard. It’s just a job title. And a not particularly meaningful one at that.
There are formal standards, they're just not necessary for most jobs. Civil engineers pretty much need a Professional Engineer license because of how often they tend to work on public works, but most software engineers won't ever come within spitting distance of needing that license.
If the engineering title isn't particularly meaningful in some company, then odds are they don't need to be hiring as many actual engineers for those roles.
But there *are* formal standards for being professional engineers.
Does throwing "software" in front of it make it okay? So, if I say I'm a "software lawyer" then it's okay?
But there isn’t one for being a software engineer.
Software lawyer implies that you’re a licensed lawyer specializing in software related things. Software engineer does not imply that you’re, say, a licensed civil engineer doing software.
Imagine thinking that accredited program at a university by a single organization is comparable to actually getting licensed in a similar way to passing the bar or getting a PE certification.... maybe you should look up what the requirements for all 3 of those are
The degree is also a credential from a trusted third party that you have a particular set of skills.
Now, how do we know that the person who gave you that degree should be trusted? Usually there are further third party accreditors, such as ABET.
If you have an ABET accredited EE degree, I'm happy to call you an Engineer. If you took an 8 week course on semi-conductors online, and got a job for some startup soldering resistors onto PCBs to make trail cameras, where they happen to call you an EE, then I think that's an abuse of the credential.
Okay then what’s the functional difference though between me, who has an ABET accredited degree in engineering, and a coworker of mine who doesn’t?
If we’re both doing the same job to the same level of ability and success, what’s the difference? Is the paper really the only thing making me an engineer, or is it the skills and the understanding on how to use them?
This is the gatekeepy stuff I mentioned in another comment. I couldn’t care less if other people use the title of engineer so long as they have the skills to back it up. My accredited degree is cool, sure, but it has almost no bearing on my actual skills. I know people with this degree that don’t deserve the title and vice versa, don’t value a piece of paper over actual skill.
Sort of, yeah. That argument applies to all the cases I mentioned though, right?
If you happen to have all the skills to be a doctor, but didn't go to med schookl, you don't get to call yourself one.
Don't pass the bar, you don't get to practice law, even if you have all the skills.
So what do we do with the person with 20 years of experience who is functionally equivalent to a software engineering but doesn't have a trusted third party certification? We call them programmers, and that's always been good enough. No reason to borrow someone else's term-of-art that has historically required certification.
I’m a data engineer, it’s my job title. I perform the function at the level of any degreed eNgInEeR. I hold numerous relevant certifications, but no degree.
With a field as fluid and in motion as software, where the materials a grad has learned are all outdated and not even in practice. It isn’t much of a standard. Your argument is literally pointless
You can be a lawyer, but not an attorney. You can't give paid legal advice without having (depending on location).
You can only be a doctor with a Doctorate, regardless of studies. You can be a doctor of philosophy.
You cannot call yourself an MD without being an MD.
In the US, you can call yourself an engineer, but not architect without licensing, but you can't call yourself a professional engineer (P.Eng).
In Canada, it's the contrary. You can call yourself an architect, but not an engineer (although a lot of software engineers do). They also have P.eng title.
There actually are ways to become a lawyer without getting a law degree so I'm not sure about your point there.
And if you're working as a software engineer, then you are a software engineer. Not sure why everyone here is acting like people are just passing out that job title like it's candy. I've had the job title software developer, and I've had the job title software engineer. There were notable differences in the responsibilities between the two, and that's been true in multiple places I've worked. So calm down.
Plus, the idea that the label requires an objective standard or that it must hold some kind of weight is mostly pointless. That's exactly what I mean by people being insecure. It only bothers those who have built their identity around a word. And that's your problem to work out with your therapist
If we don't have agreed upon meanings for words, then it makes it impossible to communicate with precision.
If you aren't trying to communicate an objectively true idea, we have a word for that, lying.
When someone asks me what I do for a living, and I say "I'm a software engineer", I don't think anyone is confused or that my communication is lacking in precision.
And when I tease my mechanical engineer brother about how we're both engineers now because he is also insecure about the use of that label and I know it bothers him, I don't think he's confused or that my communication is lacking in precision.
When I fill out customs paperwork on a plane and I put my industry as technology and my job title as software engineer, I don't think anyone is confused or that my communication is lacking in precision.
In fact, in these cases, and many others, my job and its functions are quite clear to anyone listening. I'm not secretly an accountant. I'm not actually doing the work of a librarian and just calling myself a software engineer. That is actually what I am. It is not complicated
It's not entirely your fault that the term has been generified, but using it outside of the proper context compounds the problem. I understand the horse has already bolted, but I don't think it makes the point less important.
Yeah, people are mostly joking when they call garbage men "sanitation engineers," but I've heard people say "domestic engineer" unironically.
Wow. Thank you so much for absolving me of blame. But the truth is this isn't about clarity of language or legality or any other excuse. It's as you say the 'weight' of the label, which is the giveaway here. It's about your ego and your need to be validated by a word
Do they? In my world we have a pretty precise definition and standards for what makes someone a software engineer, and it's not just "anyone who happens to get paid to code."
I mean I don’t know of anyone who just puts their job title as lawyer or doctor without actually being a lawyer or doctor lol both of those professions require a bar exam. But technically if you were able to pass the bar and get licensed then yea you could be one without the actual degree but it’s highly unlikely….
Im pretty sure his point was that whether you have a degree or not if you are a software engineer you are going to be doing software engineering hence you are a software engineer… if they are able to produce the same results why does a piece of paper matter so much?
Also just calling yourself something and being able to produce the results are two completely different things… degree or not if you can do something you can do it reguardases of some arbitrary measure.. I don’t think people get jobs as software engineers just because they call themselves a software engineer.. I’m pretty sure they get the job because they can do the same thing as the degree holders…
I'm three years away from my boot camp and I've been part of the hiring and firing decisions of multiple CS degree holders. It's surprising sometimes how little recent grads actually know.
engineer
ĕn″jə-nîr′
noun
- One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
- One who operates an engine.
- One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise.
- The title of an officer of the corps of civil engineers of the United States Navy. See corps.
- An official grade of governmental engineering officers in some countries, as in France.
- A person skilled in the principles and practice of any department of engineering.
transitive verb
- To plan, construct, or manage as an engineer.
- To alter or produce by methods of genetic engineering.
- To plan, manage, and bring about by skillful acts or contrivance.
Yeah sure.. I work alongside software engineers that unfortunately don't know of any actual engineering practices. Fake it till you make it but I don't want to work with you if you can't actually do what the job requires regardless of your title.
Not in Canada. But neither is someone who did a 4 year degree (probably).
"Engineer" is a regulated professional term associated with P.Eng.s; and most Canadian software engineers don't bother registering, even if eligible.
OP says no. I could care less what anyone wants to call me, my job has my title as Software Engineer and I get paid equally/more in a few cases to my peers who do have degrees. Perfectly content with the certs I have done as a boot camp grad.
I'm a bootcamper with the software engineer title. I would never try and call myself an engineer outside of my title as, at least in my country, that's connected to having an engineering degree. I cannot change the title my company uses, but I can choose to not fake having an engineering degree but not calling myself an engineer.
The bigger fight we should be having: Calling web development “engineering.”
Especially with how abstracted/simple backend is becoming due to cloud computing, the economy needs vastly more developers than engineers.
Not everyone needs to know how to build Spark/Hadoop from scratch.
Right but like... That doesn't even make sense?
I have my bachelor's, does that mean I'm a "university engineer"? The title refers to what you work on, not where you studied.
It varies by country and even state.
For example here in the state of Washington you can be a software engineer as a title just handed out by your employer. No big deal. You can put it in emails or business cards. Nothing illegal there.
But if you’re a Professional Engineer (PE), like the people who sign off in plans for structures, you need to not only have the schooling but serve under an existing engineer for 8 years, pass some specialty exams, and be registered. You can’t claim to be a PE unless you’re registered.
> any person in either public or private capacity practicing or offering to practice engineering or land surveying, shall hereafter be required to submit evidence that he or she is qualified so to practice and shall be registered as hereinafter provided;
> (8)(a) "Practice of engineering" means any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training, and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, and supervision of construction for the purpose of assuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects.
https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.43&full=true
So that’s what a “Professional Engineer” is defined as in Washington by law. You can’t claim to be one if you don’t qualify. It doesn’t apply to like train engineers, softwares engineers, sound engineers, or the like. Just construction and utilities have a protected title.
I have heard that many places in Europe are different. I don’t know if it’s true but I was told if I had to travel to France for work I’m supposed to declare my profession as Software Developer because I’m not registered with any recognized professional association.
It also varies based on needs. I used to work with sales as an engineer (presenting preliminary results). I had various business cards with different titles, depending on who we were meeting. Sometimes I was leading engineer, sometimes chief engineer, sometimes just control engineer. My BA colleague had similar cards, except he was "technician" at home.
Also, business cards is just something for pretentious bosses to feel like we're important. It was guaranteed that anyone who cared about our cards were useless at the meetings.
I have a masters in Molecular Biology and am a tech lead / staff.
All new hires are new until proven incompetent.
I don't discriminate when it comes to being dumb repeatedly
OP is just coping because he dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin' education he coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, but at
least I won't be unoriginal. By the way if you have a problem with that, I
mean, we could just step outside and we could figure it out.
Noooo not really... There are BEng degrees (bachelor's of engineering) whereby you can do Computer Engineering, Software Engineering... Then there's BSc whereby you can do Computer Science, information technology, etc.
In Poland you would be.
After first level of technical university(polytechnic) you get title of 'engineer', after second level you are magister engineer.
Computer Science Engineering is a degree.
[https://www.unsw.edu.au/study/undergraduate/bachelor-of-computer-science?studentType=Domestic](https://www.unsw.edu.au/study/undergraduate/bachelor-of-computer-science?studentType=Domestic)
The award is Science, however it's from the faculty of Engineering
It had architecture and digital logic design related subjects, but majorly focusing on computer science proper with all the theory nitty gritties and stuff
Honestly I can’t comment on this. In Canada there’s definitely a distinction between Computer Science and Computer Engineering.
Like Comp Eng would scrap all the additional math courses CS students would have to take, in place for electrical and software courses. And there’s also the courses, required by whichever professional engineering association, you’d have to take.
Ohh, guess that makes sense.
In India, we do tend to go a bit towards architecture and electronics side, but not to the extent of electronics major students. Other stuff would typically involve pure cs subjects such as discrete structures and math, programming languages, operating systems, and ml, etc in higher semesters.
I hate this argument with a passion. If that were the case, people getting computer science degrees wouldn’t be in their university’s engineering school. I took many of the same engineering courses as the mechanical/electrical engineers. The only difference was the core/major specific courses so how am I not in the engineering field according to you?
Computer science is a field of mathematics, while engineering is a bit more broad, but it’s focused on applied sciences.
Computer scientist discover things in the realm of computation and automation (so computers). Engineers on the other hand, apply the stuff found by scientist (hence the term applied sciences), into things we can actually use. No role is above the other; one’s just probably making more money out of the hard work of the other though.
I don’t know what courses you’ve taken, but if you’re in CS, you’ve probably only taken math related courses with engineering students. But math is essential part to every engineering field, the stuff that really separates engineers is the other core courses they have to take, which gets more into their specific science. And I don’t know about you, but I feel like something would be off if a CS student had to take thermodynamics, electromagnetism, organic chemistry, continuum mechanics, and et cetera.
I did the extension bootcamp and landed an amazing job, during the interviews I kept hearing how portfolio supersedes degrees in entry level frontend jobs
Repeat after me “WHO GIVES A FUCK”
Engineers are so full of themselves until they stand next to a math major , this intellectual superiority that engineers exude is so unfounded like bro you aren’t special - your bounds of logic don’t even get tested , most of your degree is plugging and chugging , let’s take some pure math , analysis , differential topology courses together and then let’s see how you fare,
Chemical engineering was far, *far* more difficult than math was for me (double major) simply due to how vast the scope of information is you’re required to know - even the math part because of the sheer number of environmental exceptions which throw a wrench in a solution.
Ok I will give you that , chemical engineers have all my respect, I’m a double major in applied math and cs and most engineering students I interact with(usually civil and mechanical) are usually atop some intellectual high horse
I’m a college grad. I did probably the most traditional route to a swe job you can. That being said I have a lot of respect for bootcamp grads. They often need to work incredibly hard to prove themselves and make one hell of a resume to contend with college grads. I have met plenty who put me to shame. End of the day we are all different and took different routes to similar jobs in the same field.
I completely disagree with this statement. The term “engineer” should be reserved for certified professionals and require continuous education.
Everyone should be either a technician or a developer. There is no such thing as a sales engineer because they’re not engineering anything.
Yes, that's my point, we shouldn't be tacking the term 'engineer' on to anything that isn't super technical.
The only thing I disagree with you on is that you actually disagree with what I said.
I’m an audio engineer and dropped outta high school. Most of my colleagues graduated high school, but none went to college, and very few attended an audio engineering trade school. It’s almost like what you can do matters more than what pieces of paper you got….
True. I went through a software engineering Bootcamp at a top-ranked public university.
During the 20 weeks, our instructor was like "Google it, bro" and that was my Bootcamp experience.
I would never hire anybody with Bootcamp only experience.
Sounds like you had a garbage instructor. Our instructors were present and teaching all day 0830 - 1800 Mon - Fri with a Saturday session for extra help. Not once was I told to google or given the answers, but rather was given the guidance needed to get me on track and complete my assignments within deadlines.
Probably. We had class every Tuesday & Thursday night for a couple of hours. Our instructor would walk through the provided materials.
If we had questions, then the usual response was 'in a real work environment, you'd have to Google your answer.' Nice instructor, but no guidance was provided.
Given the narrow specialization most colleges and universities foist upon their students to maximize profit per meatbag, it's more likely that everyone is lacking knowledge about something and will be required to work together to cover the gaps in knowledge.
Teamwork makes the dream work.
I lost all confidence in my own work due to other people doing just as good of a job without spending as nearly as the time I did.
I now seek validation through internet points.
~OP
Honestly I don’t care what credentials you have. Can you do the job or what? I’ve met college grads who can barely write a hello world and overcompetent boot camp grads, self taught teens, and plenty in between. A college grad may be a safer bet, but lots of people know their shit.
I'm wrapping a ms at a prestigious institution. There are a few people in my cohort I'm not entirely certain aren't potatoes in people suits. I seriously don't know how they made it through as the program beat the pride, and ever living fuck, out of me. Yet here we are "collaborating" on a project where they are capable of literally fucking nothing. Which is not at all to say that education has no merits. However the entire universe seems to be somewhat fond of statistics, and so should we be.
It’s usually money, I’ve worked with more well educated idiots at the executive level than not.
Money == tutors == someone to do your homework for you. And also help you prep for tests in a targeted way, to maximize your score with a minimum of effort. They can't bring that person with them to the group project, so they are suddenly and inexplicably useless.
That last line is gold.
Yeah, my senior was a nursery graduate. Didn't enjoy nurse job, took bootcamp, then become SE. Bruh, he's even better than majority senior in that company that have CS graduate.
My brother’s roommate, a CS major, was asking my brother, a MechE major to teach him how to program for an interview he had later in the week
I think this is why the leet code grind came about. Degrees just get you in the door, once the interview starts nobody gives a hoot about your desploma, GPA, etc.
But if you get a job as a software engineer after doing boot camp are u considered a engineer?
Yes, if your job is software engineer, then you are a software engineer. Anyone who gets upset with people using the title engineer 'without earning it' is just an insecure asshole Edit: grammar
Maybe it differs by state (and almost certainly by country), but you have to be registered as an engineer where I am, or a graduate of an accredited program, regardless of job title. Even if your job says software engineer, if you're not registered you are legally not one.
There was a famous case where a Swedish engineer, living in Oregon, was fined for calling himself an engineer and doing math. He fought his right to call himself an engineer and won - sort of. “Licensing red-tape violate First Amendment, says court in battle over timing algorithm” https://www.theregister.com/2019/01/02/oregon_engineer_license_laws/ https://www.theregister.com/2019/10/21/traffic_lights_changed/
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In this particular state, the issue was actually with the general term ‘engineer’ not being allowed without licensing. (Which I, being an engineer myself, finds both ridiculous and offensive.) And even worse: He was not just fined for calling himself an engineer. He was also fined for documenting a flaw, which he had found in calculations behind traffic light timings, without being a licensed engineer in that state. So they were basically trying to suppress his right to free speech: “If you are not a licensed engineer, you are not allowed to point out that an engineer made mistakes.”
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He did math. My second link even shows his math.
Practically speaking does it matter, at all? Certified Software engineers aren’t required to sign off on projects like civil engineers are. If the title doesn’t carry any special powers or responsibilities then the “right” to use it doesn’t really matter
There is one of those weird honorific things you can put in your signature I think? Actually that's only European engineers. (EUR ING)
Sign off does exist in a lot of engineering companies as a form of delegated authority, and those businesses may (arguably should) have policies about who can hold a delegated authority and the level of qualification or certification they must possess.
Call me whatever you want as long as I get paid.
Yeah same with California but nobody gives a shit if they aren't a licensed engineer as a swe
Depends where you are, Engineer is a licensed title across Canada, and employers who employ non-licensed individuals (or individuals who present themselves as engineers w/out a P.Eng) *will* be fined by the relevant provincial body. [This applies to software engineers too](https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illegal-practice/report-unlicensed-individuals-or-companies-2#software)
It's cultural. In Finland you can but "Prof." instead of Mr or Ms on your passport, in France engineer is a title only granted by the "Greater School Conference" and is almost as protected as Md, and proff is an official title only those with some teaching career in uni can have. Anyway, nothing insecure in wanting to dissociate the job title with the person title. For them it's like medals they collected I guess.
It's a legal thing
> Anyone who gets upset with people using the title engineer 'without earning it' is just an insecure asshole Then why won't they let me drive the train!?
Except in Canada it is a professional designation. You technically can't have Engineer as your title if you aren't one.
Yeah engineering is full of insecurity, it’s a gang of people who were in the top 10% of their high schools who suddenly weren’t the smartest kid in school. A bunch get gatekeepy and weird because the term engineer becomes the new way they can show off that they’re smarter than everybody else. I have an engineering degree so I lived this and am not shitting on them, just saying what I experienced haha
Not always. There are regulatory bodies for diploma
So if your job title is "lawyer" then you're a lawyer even if you don't have a law degree? If someone decides that your job title is "doctor" then you're a doctor if you don't have a medical or doctoral degree? Anyone can have a job, that doesn't mean it matches some objective standard. I see plenty of "housewives" calling themselves "domestic engineers." That holds about as much weight as your label.
You need a license to practice law or medicine. You don’t a license to be a software engineer. There’s no formal standard. It’s just a job title. And a not particularly meaningful one at that.
There are formal standards, they're just not necessary for most jobs. Civil engineers pretty much need a Professional Engineer license because of how often they tend to work on public works, but most software engineers won't ever come within spitting distance of needing that license. If the engineering title isn't particularly meaningful in some company, then odds are they don't need to be hiring as many actual engineers for those roles.
But there *are* formal standards for being professional engineers. Does throwing "software" in front of it make it okay? So, if I say I'm a "software lawyer" then it's okay?
But there isn’t one for being a software engineer. Software lawyer implies that you’re a licensed lawyer specializing in software related things. Software engineer does not imply that you’re, say, a licensed civil engineer doing software.
Yes, there is. Look, for instance, at the ABET accreditation standards for Software Engineering.
Imagine thinking that accredited program at a university by a single organization is comparable to actually getting licensed in a similar way to passing the bar or getting a PE certification.... maybe you should look up what the requirements for all 3 of those are
So I have an EE degree but I don’t have my PE certification, does that mean I’m not an engineer?
The degree is also a credential from a trusted third party that you have a particular set of skills. Now, how do we know that the person who gave you that degree should be trusted? Usually there are further third party accreditors, such as ABET. If you have an ABET accredited EE degree, I'm happy to call you an Engineer. If you took an 8 week course on semi-conductors online, and got a job for some startup soldering resistors onto PCBs to make trail cameras, where they happen to call you an EE, then I think that's an abuse of the credential.
Okay then what’s the functional difference though between me, who has an ABET accredited degree in engineering, and a coworker of mine who doesn’t? If we’re both doing the same job to the same level of ability and success, what’s the difference? Is the paper really the only thing making me an engineer, or is it the skills and the understanding on how to use them? This is the gatekeepy stuff I mentioned in another comment. I couldn’t care less if other people use the title of engineer so long as they have the skills to back it up. My accredited degree is cool, sure, but it has almost no bearing on my actual skills. I know people with this degree that don’t deserve the title and vice versa, don’t value a piece of paper over actual skill.
Sort of, yeah. That argument applies to all the cases I mentioned though, right? If you happen to have all the skills to be a doctor, but didn't go to med schookl, you don't get to call yourself one. Don't pass the bar, you don't get to practice law, even if you have all the skills. So what do we do with the person with 20 years of experience who is functionally equivalent to a software engineering but doesn't have a trusted third party certification? We call them programmers, and that's always been good enough. No reason to borrow someone else's term-of-art that has historically required certification.
I’m a data engineer, it’s my job title. I perform the function at the level of any degreed eNgInEeR. I hold numerous relevant certifications, but no degree. With a field as fluid and in motion as software, where the materials a grad has learned are all outdated and not even in practice. It isn’t much of a standard. Your argument is literally pointless
You can be a lawyer, but not an attorney. You can't give paid legal advice without having (depending on location). You can only be a doctor with a Doctorate, regardless of studies. You can be a doctor of philosophy. You cannot call yourself an MD without being an MD. In the US, you can call yourself an engineer, but not architect without licensing, but you can't call yourself a professional engineer (P.Eng). In Canada, it's the contrary. You can call yourself an architect, but not an engineer (although a lot of software engineers do). They also have P.eng title.
There actually are ways to become a lawyer without getting a law degree so I'm not sure about your point there. And if you're working as a software engineer, then you are a software engineer. Not sure why everyone here is acting like people are just passing out that job title like it's candy. I've had the job title software developer, and I've had the job title software engineer. There were notable differences in the responsibilities between the two, and that's been true in multiple places I've worked. So calm down. Plus, the idea that the label requires an objective standard or that it must hold some kind of weight is mostly pointless. That's exactly what I mean by people being insecure. It only bothers those who have built their identity around a word. And that's your problem to work out with your therapist
If we don't have agreed upon meanings for words, then it makes it impossible to communicate with precision. If you aren't trying to communicate an objectively true idea, we have a word for that, lying.
When someone asks me what I do for a living, and I say "I'm a software engineer", I don't think anyone is confused or that my communication is lacking in precision. And when I tease my mechanical engineer brother about how we're both engineers now because he is also insecure about the use of that label and I know it bothers him, I don't think he's confused or that my communication is lacking in precision. When I fill out customs paperwork on a plane and I put my industry as technology and my job title as software engineer, I don't think anyone is confused or that my communication is lacking in precision. In fact, in these cases, and many others, my job and its functions are quite clear to anyone listening. I'm not secretly an accountant. I'm not actually doing the work of a librarian and just calling myself a software engineer. That is actually what I am. It is not complicated
It's not entirely your fault that the term has been generified, but using it outside of the proper context compounds the problem. I understand the horse has already bolted, but I don't think it makes the point less important. Yeah, people are mostly joking when they call garbage men "sanitation engineers," but I've heard people say "domestic engineer" unironically.
Wow. Thank you so much for absolving me of blame. But the truth is this isn't about clarity of language or legality or any other excuse. It's as you say the 'weight' of the label, which is the giveaway here. It's about your ego and your need to be validated by a word
People know what a software engineer is. It’s not lying just because you think some currently nonexistent standard needs to be applied.
Do they? In my world we have a pretty precise definition and standards for what makes someone a software engineer, and it's not just "anyone who happens to get paid to code."
I mean I don’t know of anyone who just puts their job title as lawyer or doctor without actually being a lawyer or doctor lol both of those professions require a bar exam. But technically if you were able to pass the bar and get licensed then yea you could be one without the actual degree but it’s highly unlikely…. Im pretty sure his point was that whether you have a degree or not if you are a software engineer you are going to be doing software engineering hence you are a software engineer… if they are able to produce the same results why does a piece of paper matter so much? Also just calling yourself something and being able to produce the results are two completely different things… degree or not if you can do something you can do it reguardases of some arbitrary measure.. I don’t think people get jobs as software engineers just because they call themselves a software engineer.. I’m pretty sure they get the job because they can do the same thing as the degree holders…
I'm three years away from my boot camp and I've been part of the hiring and firing decisions of multiple CS degree holders. It's surprising sometimes how little recent grads actually know.
engineer ĕn″jə-nîr′ noun - One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering. - One who operates an engine. - One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise. - The title of an officer of the corps of civil engineers of the United States Navy. See corps. - An official grade of governmental engineering officers in some countries, as in France. - A person skilled in the principles and practice of any department of engineering. transitive verb - To plan, construct, or manage as an engineer. - To alter or produce by methods of genetic engineering. - To plan, manage, and bring about by skillful acts or contrivance.
Yeah sure.. I work alongside software engineers that unfortunately don't know of any actual engineering practices. Fake it till you make it but I don't want to work with you if you can't actually do what the job requires regardless of your title.
If your job title is software engineer, usually you’re a developer
Not in Canada. But neither is someone who did a 4 year degree (probably). "Engineer" is a regulated professional term associated with P.Eng.s; and most Canadian software engineers don't bother registering, even if eligible.
OP says no. I could care less what anyone wants to call me, my job has my title as Software Engineer and I get paid equally/more in a few cases to my peers who do have degrees. Perfectly content with the certs I have done as a boot camp grad.
Call yourself whatever makes you happy... hell at Goldman Sachs you're called vice president of software engineering as a senior dev.
Thank you for your service mr president
No you’re an imposter ;)
I'm a bootcamper with the software engineer title. I would never try and call myself an engineer outside of my title as, at least in my country, that's connected to having an engineering degree. I cannot change the title my company uses, but I can choose to not fake having an engineering degree but not calling myself an engineer.
Technically not in canada, Engineer is a protected title
The bigger fight we should be having: Calling web development “engineering.” Especially with how abstracted/simple backend is becoming due to cloud computing, the economy needs vastly more developers than engineers. Not everyone needs to know how to build Spark/Hadoop from scratch.
Right but like... That doesn't even make sense? I have my bachelor's, does that mean I'm a "university engineer"? The title refers to what you work on, not where you studied.
Really? I live in Sweden and here I’ve never heard of anyone calling themselves an engineer that doesn’t have an engineering university degree
It varies by country and even state. For example here in the state of Washington you can be a software engineer as a title just handed out by your employer. No big deal. You can put it in emails or business cards. Nothing illegal there. But if you’re a Professional Engineer (PE), like the people who sign off in plans for structures, you need to not only have the schooling but serve under an existing engineer for 8 years, pass some specialty exams, and be registered. You can’t claim to be a PE unless you’re registered. > any person in either public or private capacity practicing or offering to practice engineering or land surveying, shall hereafter be required to submit evidence that he or she is qualified so to practice and shall be registered as hereinafter provided; > (8)(a) "Practice of engineering" means any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training, and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, and supervision of construction for the purpose of assuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works, or projects. https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=18.43&full=true So that’s what a “Professional Engineer” is defined as in Washington by law. You can’t claim to be one if you don’t qualify. It doesn’t apply to like train engineers, softwares engineers, sound engineers, or the like. Just construction and utilities have a protected title. I have heard that many places in Europe are different. I don’t know if it’s true but I was told if I had to travel to France for work I’m supposed to declare my profession as Software Developer because I’m not registered with any recognized professional association.
It also varies based on needs. I used to work with sales as an engineer (presenting preliminary results). I had various business cards with different titles, depending on who we were meeting. Sometimes I was leading engineer, sometimes chief engineer, sometimes just control engineer. My BA colleague had similar cards, except he was "technician" at home. Also, business cards is just something for pretentious bosses to feel like we're important. It was guaranteed that anyone who cared about our cards were useless at the meetings.
I have an unfinished engineering degree (electrical engineering). I'm a software...developer, and that's my working title.
I have a masters in Molecular Biology and am a tech lead / staff. All new hires are new until proven incompetent. I don't discriminate when it comes to being dumb repeatedly
OP is just coping because he dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin' education he coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library.
Yeah but you'll be serving my kids fries at a drive thru on our way to our ski trip.
What is going on in this sub lately jesus guys chill
lmao I love the innocent kindness of this reply, (understandably) not having known the movie. I legitimately laughed.
It's a movie reference, r/woooosh
Oops you got me, sorry 😂 What's the movie btw?
Good Will Hunting, watch it asap
Ohhh I have seen it, great movie I didn't recognise the line!
Yeah excellent movie, absolute must watch.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, but at least I won't be unoriginal. By the way if you have a problem with that, I mean, we could just step outside and we could figure it out.
Figger it out
Noooo not really... There are BEng degrees (bachelor's of engineering) whereby you can do Computer Engineering, Software Engineering... Then there's BSc whereby you can do Computer Science, information technology, etc.
In Poland you would be. After first level of technical university(polytechnic) you get title of 'engineer', after second level you are magister engineer.
You need professional help lol
Ah yes i too am a computer science engineer
dude I literally have a degree in Computer Science Engineering. What’s the joke here?
I believe this is more commonly referred to as software engineering
Same here, my degree’s official title is Computer Science Engineer
And definitely NOT a software engineer
Computer Science Engineering is a degree. [https://www.unsw.edu.au/study/undergraduate/bachelor-of-computer-science?studentType=Domestic](https://www.unsw.edu.au/study/undergraduate/bachelor-of-computer-science?studentType=Domestic) The award is Science, however it's from the faculty of Engineering
Bootcamp engineer?
I'm m also confused. Maybe he hasn't any degree and just went through a coding bootcamp?🤔
I think they engineer bootcamps
Does combat engineer count?
Or social engineer?
Does a janitorial engineer count?
Unless the job is designing janitorial equipment or automated cleaning processes then no
Commercial hygiene solutions architect
Bruh, computer science isn’t an engineering field. It’s literally in the name.
I am currently enrolled in a computer science engineering course at college. I believe it's slightly different from regular cs but still quite similar
Is it focused on computer engineering? That is a little different and is more focused on Electrical E. side of things.
It had architecture and digital logic design related subjects, but majorly focusing on computer science proper with all the theory nitty gritties and stuff
Honestly I can’t comment on this. In Canada there’s definitely a distinction between Computer Science and Computer Engineering. Like Comp Eng would scrap all the additional math courses CS students would have to take, in place for electrical and software courses. And there’s also the courses, required by whichever professional engineering association, you’d have to take.
Ohh, guess that makes sense. In India, we do tend to go a bit towards architecture and electronics side, but not to the extent of electronics major students. Other stuff would typically involve pure cs subjects such as discrete structures and math, programming languages, operating systems, and ml, etc in higher semesters.
I hate this argument with a passion. If that were the case, people getting computer science degrees wouldn’t be in their university’s engineering school. I took many of the same engineering courses as the mechanical/electrical engineers. The only difference was the core/major specific courses so how am I not in the engineering field according to you?
Computer science is a field of mathematics, while engineering is a bit more broad, but it’s focused on applied sciences. Computer scientist discover things in the realm of computation and automation (so computers). Engineers on the other hand, apply the stuff found by scientist (hence the term applied sciences), into things we can actually use. No role is above the other; one’s just probably making more money out of the hard work of the other though. I don’t know what courses you’ve taken, but if you’re in CS, you’ve probably only taken math related courses with engineering students. But math is essential part to every engineering field, the stuff that really separates engineers is the other core courses they have to take, which gets more into their specific science. And I don’t know about you, but I feel like something would be off if a CS student had to take thermodynamics, electromagnetism, organic chemistry, continuum mechanics, and et cetera.
McDonalds employees on their way to become cashier engineers
I did the extension bootcamp and landed an amazing job, during the interviews I kept hearing how portfolio supersedes degrees in entry level frontend jobs
Me: *Mechatronics*
And again… I’m laughing all the way to the bank
Is “trains🤪” a valid answer?
Repeat after me “WHO GIVES A FUCK” Engineers are so full of themselves until they stand next to a math major , this intellectual superiority that engineers exude is so unfounded like bro you aren’t special - your bounds of logic don’t even get tested , most of your degree is plugging and chugging , let’s take some pure math , analysis , differential topology courses together and then let’s see how you fare,
Chemical engineering was far, *far* more difficult than math was for me (double major) simply due to how vast the scope of information is you’re required to know - even the math part because of the sheer number of environmental exceptions which throw a wrench in a solution.
Ok I will give you that , chemical engineers have all my respect, I’m a double major in applied math and cs and most engineering students I interact with(usually civil and mechanical) are usually atop some intellectual high horse
this doesn't make any sense lol I have a degree but am not a "college engineer"
I’m a college grad. I did probably the most traditional route to a swe job you can. That being said I have a lot of respect for bootcamp grads. They often need to work incredibly hard to prove themselves and make one hell of a resume to contend with college grads. I have met plenty who put me to shame. End of the day we are all different and took different routes to similar jobs in the same field.
Yeah, I really by think anything to do with sales or customer service deserves the "engineer" title
I completely disagree with this statement. The term “engineer” should be reserved for certified professionals and require continuous education. Everyone should be either a technician or a developer. There is no such thing as a sales engineer because they’re not engineering anything.
Yes, that's my point, we shouldn't be tacking the term 'engineer' on to anything that isn't super technical. The only thing I disagree with you on is that you actually disagree with what I said.
Well in his defence it is quite difficult to know what you meant in that first comment
That's fair
Money Transfer Systems Engineer (cashier)
What happened to captain after this scene?
he beat up all the goofs who think the title matters
Your Bootcamp certificate is not valid in my country.
solid country.
I’m an audio engineer and dropped outta high school. Most of my colleagues graduated high school, but none went to college, and very few attended an audio engineering trade school. It’s almost like what you can do matters more than what pieces of paper you got….
I'm starting to think you are a troll and not actually a software engineer. You should consider a software engineering boot camp.
Meh. I went to high school. I'll take on any MD or Ph.D.
Everyone goes to college and bootcamps , but they will watch Indian guy on YouTube regardless
True. I went through a software engineering Bootcamp at a top-ranked public university. During the 20 weeks, our instructor was like "Google it, bro" and that was my Bootcamp experience. I would never hire anybody with Bootcamp only experience.
Sounds like you had a garbage instructor. Our instructors were present and teaching all day 0830 - 1800 Mon - Fri with a Saturday session for extra help. Not once was I told to google or given the answers, but rather was given the guidance needed to get me on track and complete my assignments within deadlines.
Probably. We had class every Tuesday & Thursday night for a couple of hours. Our instructor would walk through the provided materials. If we had questions, then the usual response was 'in a real work environment, you'd have to Google your answer.' Nice instructor, but no guidance was provided.
Bro that's not a bootcamp that's you getting fucking scammed
Correction. My employer paid the full $15k for the bootcamp. ʘ‿ʘ
Haha keep ‘em coming
Damn I just get paid to write broken English in ruby leave me alone bro
Computer science as an engineer?? nOt To bE eLiEtiSt buT cOmPutEr EngInEeRinG eXisTs fOr a ReAsOn!?
My company calls me an Engineer. I have no engineering qualifications of any kind. *Shrug*
Given the narrow specialization most colleges and universities foist upon their students to maximize profit per meatbag, it's more likely that everyone is lacking knowledge about something and will be required to work together to cover the gaps in knowledge. Teamwork makes the dream work.
\*laughs in European public university education\*
Wait, those are different things?
I lost all confidence in my own work due to other people doing just as good of a job without spending as nearly as the time I did. I now seek validation through internet points. ~OP
Honestly the whole engineer title is goofy. I align heavily with code monkey so that's what I tell family and friends.
I kid you not I saw an HR person on LinkedIn with their title as “Talent Engineer”
Well, I actually did a bootcamp and that made me realize that my seniors don't know shit haha.