I don't believe men have it easy, just like I don't believe women have it easy I believe they have their own unique challenges in dating.
Both men and women probably underestimate each other's issues because they down have the same issues and they haven't lived the same lives. They judge things by their own metrics the things that matter to them.
Most men don't even get to experience what their type is, or what kind of personality in a woman meshes with them the best. As they can hardly even choose, but have to be chosen.
We are both hungry and looking for food. One side it’s overwhelmed by the choices and cant decide what dish is better.
The other side is equally hungry but dont get any food. He cant choose, he just eat what is provided.
How both have equally hard problems?
Theres some woman who create male dating apps and tried to match and date woman. They got reality check and admitted its way harder to even initiate simple conversation, so them can check the vibe of the other person.
>in dating
That's the key word IN dating
Lemme break it to you:
Women have it hard in dating (meaning handling a relationship)
Men have it hard GETTING a date (the step **before** the relationship)
Women find the second step of the process hard => meaning they have no trouble in the first one
Men find the first step of the process hard => meaning they get to the second step incredibly less compared to women
It's not that difficult to understand
I don't disagree that's my point. And because women and men have different challenges that's why it can be difficult for people to understand each other because we hyper focus on the things that are difficult to us.
Well... if more men struggled less at the start, they would be less adverse to relationships down the road and have more relationship skills, which would greatly decrease the problems women run into later as well.
Most of these issues are really just self defeating spirals that don't need to be.
People tend only to see the privileges of others and not their challenges, while see their own challenges and not their own privileges.
More often than not, when you see people debate feminists and stuff, it's almost entirely because the feminist just doesn't get it. She doesn't see all the challenges men face every day... She only sees all these male benefits in life. And then the men getting angry because they are like, "You're complaining about X Y Z, but you completely ignore this massive list of benefits you get in society I would love to have!"
It's basically just people screaming past each other, and why it gets nowhere.
I mean you're not wrong but one of the sides has a multi billion dollar global political machine backing them up and the other side doesn't. Kinda have to take that into account too.
You think that's the only benefit women have over men? This is exactly what I mean... Most women aren't even aware of their privileges and benefits, because they live in it like water, normalizing it entirely.
What privilege do I have? Being assumed to be the diversity hire and having to work twice as hard to be considered half as good because of the innate bias of men? To have my medical symptoms ignored or considered psychological because almost all study of pathology is carried out on men? To be less likely to have the correct doses of medication and correct treatment because ditto? To be more likely to be killed or seriously injured in a car accident because seatbelts are designed for men? To be more likely to be killed by a current or former partner? To have the second shift after work because male partners don’t feel obliged to share the domestic load? To have my bodily autonomy constantly in danger of being taken away to appease patriarchal religious zealots?
Id rather be assumed to be a diversity hire and have a job with a salary than be a man who can't get the job because there is a massive preference for women and not have a salary
I really appreciate your post because you perfectly highlight my point. People don't even recognize their privileges most of the time... Just their headwinds. As you just showed us. Completely unaware of the benefits of being a woman, you are laser focused on the struggles.
I'm not going to go down this path, but I'm sure another will gladly take the baton on this one. But as a man, there are countless things men look at towards women and go, "God... It's so much easier being a woman. I wish I had that set up." You just don't realize it, because you only see your challenges and are probably completely unfamiliar with male struggles because you haven't actually lived them and consider them insignificant. You may resent how society just wants to protect you to fuck you, but men are disposable... Society will gladly watch men fail and offer no help at all. You're just a man who's easily replaced. We don't care if you commit suicide through your struggles, become homeless... It doesn't matter. You're disposable and we can just swap you out.
Many men look at that set up and go, "Yeah I wish I had the life vest women have. I'd give up all my privileges for one of those."
I think the issue is that men aren't saying that if you're some tall, attractive, smart, hardworking, connected guy life isn't easier than if you're a women. Women are saying it's equally hard for men and women or harder for women because they're looking at their lives vs these top guys.
Men are saying the problem is that it's easier to be an average women than and average guy which I think is mostly true and women do this motte and bailey argument about top flight men.
Correct, this is known as the apex fallacy where you judge the entire group by the performance of the top individuals. Most of womens dating complaints revolve around chad and his lack of commitment. They only see the top males and assume this represents the whole group therefore it’s men who have in easy and good.
Its just like the job market feminist will go and complain about how all those male ceos and high earners in top positions have it good and then claim that all men have it like this, just look at the pay gap why are men so privileged in our society. At the same time they’ll competely ignore that 75% of homeless ppl are men. Once you involve the whole group and see the full picture things turn out to be much different then “men bad men oppress women“
Based. The biggest obstacle any person must overcome is the self. When you have a narrow view on the dating scene, you're bound to only see the things you yourself want to see.
Most women have to deal with only a subset of problems that men have to deal with. The funnel for men is tighter at the top end so they dont have the luxury to explore the entire breadth of challenges and must settle for less sooner if they dont want to end up alone.
Agreed. I don't think men have it easy in dating. I think men and women both have issues in dating they are just different. But for some reason men see it as a competition, like we must agree they have it worse than we do. Not sure why that is.
I think so too. The one thing I believe men do have the upper hand on is how society finds male promiscuity acceptable and normal. Take any debate on N count as a prime example
I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man. But I feel like men are in general less afraid for their safety than women are.
And yeah they probably have it easier in terms of career, but I think there are too many nuances to really say.
Career? Maybe 20 years ago but it's a lot easier to get a well paying office job as a uni grad if you are a woman than it is if you are a man because of the quotas and push to get women in the workforce
The fact that there is a 2:1 hiring preference for women in stem?
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2015/11/04/women-favored-2-to-1-in-stem-hiring/
"They are more likely to receive hiring offers, are paid roughly the same (in 14 of 16 comparisons across the eight fields), are generally tenured and promoted at the same rate (except in economics), remain in their fields at roughly the same rate, have their grants funded and articles accepted as often and are about as satisfied with their jobs. Articles published by women are cited as often as those by men. In sum, with a few exceptions, the world of academic science in math-based fields today reflects gender fairness, rather than gender bias."
"A woman applying for a tenure-track faculty position in STEM … at a U.S. university is twice as likely to be hired as an equally qualified man, if both candidates are highly qualified, according to a new study.”
Later on in the same article -
"158 faculty ranked two men and one woman for a tenure-track-assistant professorship, and 94 faculty ranked two women and one man. In the former condition, the female applicant was slightly weaker than her two male competitors, although still strong; in the other condition the male applicant was slightly weaker than his two female competitors, although still strong. Faculty of both genders and in all fields preferred the more-qualified men over the slightly-less-qualified women, and they also preferred the stronger women over the slightly-less-qualified man. This suggests that preference for women among identically-qualified applicants found in experimental studies and in audits does not extend to women whose credentials are even slightly weaker than male counterparts."
It
The whole point was they were talking about preferring women regardless of qualifications. This contradicted the entire paragraph, and it was a few paragraphs below it.
Those who criticize discrimination in education and hiring don’t do so only because “lesser qualified” people get the positions, but also because some protected characteristic *is used as a metric at all*.
>I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man.
I can't believe this was sincerely written out.
Yall have been encouraged to be victims to such a degree that you've created self-aware cognitive dissonance.
>I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man. But I feel like men are in general less afraid for their safety than women are.
Bro what even is this paragraph?
"Men Have it easier when it comes to risk of assault oh wait no they don't actually women just fear assault more because they're neurotic and cowardly."
So it's not even an actual privilege, it's just a mindset thing.
No wonder people call feminist talking points weak these days. Can't even find a concrete privilege
Ummm, no. Men are slightly more likely to be a victim of a violent crime.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/423245/us-violent-crime-victims-by-gender/
I've been assaulted multiple times, even when minding my own business or trying to deescalate. Even when I'm in a group or with my gf/wife I automatically become the main target in a conflict by being the biggest threat.
And here's the deal about fear - sure I can take a punch, I'm not made out of glass. But the ones around me can't. So I gotta fear not only for myself, but the ones around me - something that most women never have to deal with. You think you do, but you don't. Not in the same way.
I remember my Grandad telling me to walk with my head high and if you get a beating, you take it like a man.
Living in fear is not mainstream advice for men.
I am not saying that "taking a beating like a man" is good advice in and of itself, but its better to have that mindset, than to choose to live in fear.
When I did get a serious beating, I had a work colleague talk his mate who ran a Mui Thai gym, into giving me free 1 on 1 lessons as well as free general classes for a while.
But as we know "MeN dOnT sUpPoRt EaCh OtHeR"
Like literally being beaten and dragged around is potentially something that will happen. What matters is after being beaten and dragged around, can you get back on your two feet and keep going. That is what defines character.
I did boxing and lost 100 lbs. I've been to altercations that a simple 1-2 was enough to get the bum to back off.
I highly recommend every man to learn a martial art. Not only to be in shape and defend yourself, but to also train yourself mentally to overcome challenges.
Yes, that's a philosophy for life. You will get thrown to the ground and it's gonna hurt. But you always have to get back up and keep moving forward
I had some homeless dude try and attack me, well I am not sure what he was doing, he was chasing me and trying to grab me.
Imagine if I hadn't learnt to defend myself, imagine if I didn't have confidence, imagine if I had been told I was a victim.
I could be dead, have a gaping butt hole or who knows what.
Luckily I was bought up to look after myself and not expect others to sort my shit out for me, so those consequences are coulds not reality.
And yeah boxing is good. I generally just do the gym these days and outdoor persuits. But when I am in the gym, I will every so often have a 10 - 15 minute session on the heavy punch bag at the end of a workout. Gotta keep them knuckle sandwiches fresh and ready.
Except there are far more men who can't get dates than handicapped people.
Also, we do make, hell, mandate, adaptations for handicapped people. But for some reason ***any*** adaptation for men who struggle is somehow taboo to even conceptualize. Or discussed in caricature terms.
But then again, the casual and routine cruelty of the women on this sub is not surprising at all.
Sexual selection is and has been a zero sum game for all of biological life existence. Outside of cultural enforced monogamy you can't being equality to a situation that by it very nature is inequal without forcing couples together like the middle east which is evil. Unfortunately this part of life that brings us the most psychological pleasure also brings us the most psychological pain.
I think the best adaptation for men who struggle is unironically sexbots because that way it can be done without violating the women's rights. Unless we can find some way to modify human attraction and sex drive to bring men and women in sync with each other (with their consent of course)
Feminism (aka women's sexual trade union) vigorously opposes sexbots as well.
>with their consent of course
Oh really? I don't remember being asked for my consent when my building was threatened with demolition unless I spend a few thousand bucks to make "handicapped adaptations" even though exact *zero* handicapped people have stepped foot in it in the last 30 years.
Adaptations for *far tinier* minorities were made against the explicit consent of the majority all the time. But somehow *any* adaptation for 30%+ of young men must be discussed in the most sterile and considerate terms for the minor inconveniences of the most privileged and entitled group in the entire human history - namely white women.
Feminism needs to get over themselves in this case. Unfortunately male sexuality in general is often demonized no matter how it is expressed or who it is directed too, even inanimate objects. (Just look at how women who use dildos/vibrators are talked about compared to men who use fleshlights)
And those actions made that affected you without your consent were also bad. But just because they were doesn't make it right to do the same thing to someone else.
I think the best case scenario in the near future for both genders is for men to become happy without women, because [they clearly don't like us that much](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1chousv/how_would_you_create_a_dating_app_in_mens_favor/l277i1h/).
>And those actions made that affected you without your consent were also bad. But just because they were doesn't make it right to do the same thing to someone else.
I disagree. In part because I don't subscribe to the neo-Protestant ideology that "two wrongs don't make it right". In the real world, throughout history, two wrongs routinely ***do*** make it right. And ***might*** also always makes right.
>I think the best case scenario in the near future for both genders is for men to become happy without women, because [they clearly don't like us that much](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1chousv/how_would_you_create_a_dating_app_in_mens_favor/l277i1h/).
I'm more optimistic actually. I lived on 3 continents and I insist on a more global view. Reddit is schewed with the considerations of under 2% of the world population.
In my country the bear thing was laughed at and labelled as "Anglos being stupid in public once more".
Dating apps are nowhere near as important as way too many users on Reddit/social media make them to be. And the dopey opinions of literally irrelevant "comedians" have nowhere near as much influence as the Americans like to think they do.
It's a tiny portion of the West that is temporarily fucked. The world is fine and it will continue to be fine, for the most part.
Traveling the world helps a lot in understanding just how narrow and, quite frankly, extremist the American point of view really is.
Men have it much easier in a sense that we don’t chase players out of our league, and let him use us to be a temporary placeholder
gf and sex toy in hopes of a relationship.
If women looked in the mirror and actually dated in their league, all dating issues would instantly be over.
If a guy is on a date, decent chance he can make that girl his girlfriend. Dating women date endlessly top down on the best options available. Dating for women is their chance to land a guy much better than them.
Yes I’ve come to understand that this is what most dating women wrongly believe. If they are on a date or dating a guy nonexclusively, they think that’s their league and turn their nose at guys that actually are.
I really don't get the line of thought that men are always dating below their own looks. Like damn, maybe these dudes are just gay if they rate men's looks so highly?
Right if anything I keep seeing drop dead gorgeous girls next to some guy who looks like a thumb. It's always interesting on the rare occasion I see a hot guy w an ugly girl. I'm pretty much a lesbian though so my perception might be skewed when it comes to male vs female attractiveness
Funny, since not only me, but most of my guy friends see the opposite and nobody saw that trend 15-20 years ago.
By opposite i mean, mostly the guy looks better, ofc there are also some examples where the girl looks better than the guy, but they are rare to see, especially under 30
>a lesbian though so my perception might be skewed when it comes to male vs female attractiveness
It's not, even us straight women find women much more attractive than males.
Ask any straight women, we only find a small percentage of males attractive, but we find most women attractive. That's why we say "All women are beautiful" we mean it.
It's always so funny
there's a million posts about men struggling
but then I point out this thing about leagues and EVERY SINGLE GUY says the same "oh, actually, I'm Ryan Gosling, me and my 9 inch dick date uglies but only because it's easier but I could totally have a 9 gf"
So what is it? Are men really struggling? Is every guy here is special?
My personal theory is that men really struggle because they overestimate their own value. The standards are too high and they project that to women.
Men have very low standards and have to take what they can get. Women have ridiculous standards.
You also see loads of women rejecting men who are objectively above them.
There’s truth to what you say but also not.
Yes in a marketplace, the fact that a buyer engages with a seller means theyve agreed on price
However, having hookups and relationships are two different markets. People always ‘date within their league’ in the sense that a mutually consenting transaction occurred
But what men mean when they say they have sex with girls below their league is that men who are the top 20% with respect to looks or desirability, will often fuck girls who are say top 30 or 40%. That’s it.
The disconnect comes from the fact that women often only find the top 20 or 30% of men physically attractive enough to fuck casually.
So yes people are always dating in their league but a man who is deemed a top 10% attractive by women will often be fucking a top 25% woman AND a top 10% woman. This has been said 100s of times on this subreddit but clearly not both of the women can monogamously have that 1 man
The opposite simply is not true for women
He’s in your league if you can get a committed relationship from him when you want him to do it.
Saying he’s in your league because he accepts to have sex with you is like a man saying he’s a 10/10 because he paid a 10/10 in looks prostitutes to have sex with him. Men rarely deny free sex, just like prostitutes will rarely deny sex to a customer that pays properly. There’s no achievement in any of that, so there’s no inference about leagues. Both people will get what they want nearly 100% of the time, and there’s nothing to infer.
>Someone might be in your league but not want a relationship
That's what "when you want him to do it" means. I granted that at the start, and it has nothing to do with anything else I said about how to measure "leagues." Sex is cheap for men, so getting sex from men represents nothing about how he values you.
On the other hand, no man who has a chance to propose to a woman worthy of a relationship will miss that chance. First, because that's very rare. Second, because that's what being worthy of a relationship means.
If he doesn't want a relationship with you at that time, he does not see you at his league at that time. That's what his actions are saying. As he loses value, things may change with time, but it has nothing to do with leagues: it's a real matter of value.
An employer is \*always\* hiring anyone who's demonstrably profitable at any time. And that's \*always\* true because it's rational at any time. That is, someone whose marginal utility is higher than their salary. That is, someone brings in more money to the business than their salary. That is, someone who makes the business better. That is, someone who puts something on the table. This person will \*always\* have a job because it's rational for the business to give this person a job.
All businesses are motivated by profit, and they always hire anyone who's profitable to the business. The business not hiring you doesn't mean it's not hiring.
A lot of men here seem to think you’re dating league is based only on your looks. They’re going to be shocked to find out people in lasting relationships take a lot more than that into account.
Exactly. Men and women have different problems. Men struggle with dating, women struggle with safety and getting the respect and recognition in the professional world. But some guys here only view the world through a sex lense, so obviously they're gonna think that women's lives are magnitudes times better just cause they can have all the sex (that women actually don't want).
> But some guys here only view the world through a sex lense
Surprise surprise, people value less what they already have. Just like how people in 1st world countries never think about the privilige of having a hot shower and enough to eat, because it has never been an issue for them.
Look into those studies and how
1.) Old they are, (circa 1998)
2.) How they define rape
Hint to tern made to penetrate had to be created for a reason. This is the world most hidden in the open secret.
that "90% of rape victims are women" isnt a good rebuttal to "Men are 6-7 more likely to be assaulted or murdered than women in the US."
like woop-de-do men are raped less they are the victim of every other violent crime much more
Also women don’t avoid the most dangerous men. They actually hang around those likely to rape on college campuses.
It’s always weird that women will talk about how all men are evil. But won’t specify who is doing the raping or avoid the men doing it. Frats would be a dead concept if women avoided and generalized like they say they do online.
https://sexualassaultvictimadvocates.com/fraternities/#:~:text=Sexual%20Assaults%20in%20Fraternity%20Houses,college%20women”%20(Vox).
We don't think you have it easier, you just have it different. You have a harder time attracting people at all, but a much easier time not being under threat by people based on their attraction to you.
1) What is "a lot?" And why do men think women, en masse, ever even begin thinking about how much average men get laid?
Y'all, most women never spend any amount of time pondering the frequency of sex men have, much less a specific demographic of men. It's just not on our fucking radars. If you poll women and ask them if they've ever stopped to think about how much sex men are having, the vast majority are going to say no.
You need to stop assuming we think about your concerns and fixations like you do. Your obsession and focus on getting your dicks wet does not translate into the obsessions and focuses of women.
2) This is also not a belief women have, for the same reasons as the previous one. Also -
>If you have an average looking face, you'll get rejected a lot and have to work hard just for dates with women *on your own level.*
...
>A guy making 400k but 5/10 in looks at age 35 is still going to struggle a lot *if he's going for women* ***above 5/10.***
...
"Gosh, I have to work so hard as an average-looking man to get all those above-average looking women who are on my level!!" 😠😠
>3) Older rich guys attract lots of younger women.
No, again, this is a male belief, not a female belief. As all older women were once young, we are well aware how most older rich men are still not appealing to the majority of younger women. We know what we are and aren't attracted to, since, you know... *we are or were younger women at one point ourselves.*
I rate this post a solipsism 9/10
Why are you even asking women then if you already know women better than we know ourselves? Tf is the point of asking us anything at all? You already have all the answers 🙄
Because it's completely pointless and bad-faith to make a Q4W post when you don't believe what women tell you?
It's incredible that so many men genuinely believe we spend any amount of time thinking about how often men get their dicks wet and under which conditions are more or less likely than others. There's not a single compelling reason why this would ever be something women would concern themselves with. It's just not on an average woman's radar.
With the exception of income (and even then the money goes to joint bank accounts for married partners so women benefit from men's income) women score better than men on virtually every si gke metric we can measure.
If you think that's the only gripe men have in life it's either because you're not paying attention or you don't care.
Isn't the entire biggest gripe men have that they are invisible? The fact that nobody cares or even knows of men's issues shows how hard men's life really is.
Yeah pretty much that, and largely the single biggest reason for men being invisible is the gender empathy gap. People plain just don't care about men nearly as much as about women.
And for some reason men can scream it out loud until they're blue in the face and feminism still wouldn't catch it.
https://www.forbes.com/health/dating/dating-statistics/
>Males were more likely to have met someone on a dating app and have it lead to an exclusive relationship (75%), compared to 66% of females.
>Additionally, nearly 68% of males felt positively about dating, compared to around 55% of females.
Is there a term for something like the apex fallacy, but for losers instead? Because I feel like that would explain a lot of the viewpoints expressed on this subreddit.
Because women are hooking up with multiple guys while most guys would prefer a relationship. And of course women aren’t going to be satisfied after getting into a relationship after racking up 10+ bodies since they’re supposed to be loyal and not fucking Chad who is out of her league but won’t commit to her
I have a question. On which planet do you live? Most guys would prefer a relationship? This is totally incorrect. As the lady below indicates, perhaps a quarter of men are built to pursue LTRs almost exclusively. My guess is that perhaps twenty-five percent of men will always go for promiscuous sex, even if they're married or in a LTR. The remaining half are hybrids that will go back and forth, or will be focused on casual sex while young and then eventually try to do LTRs as they get worn down by age and experience.
Maybe a third of women are hard-core LTR types (suspect many shown in poll below are fibbing because good girls don't admit to wanting casual sex). Probably 15 or 20% are sexual adventurers. The rest: hybrid that change hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or yearly based on changing tides of hormones, friend influence, social pressures, availability of Chads or convincing predators, presence of pastors/imams, prevalence of alcohol and/or potent drugs, and degree of frustration with shitty, empty hookups with incompetent/lazy men.
>Because women are hooking up with multiple guys while most guys would prefer a relationship.
https://preview.redd.it/7n9gn65zz19d1.png?width=840&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c92e1c91be782ff8ee6fc4e2d7654aeac413c05
:)
No. Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do.
As for relationships, it’s common knowledge women have more of an advantage. The only way men can break that advantage is to lie and lead women on which usually takes the form of men claiming they love you. Women are starting to smarten up though. The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward.
> it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do.
I think you vastly overestimate the amount of "networking" that guys do. Heck, what percentage of guys are freemasons? Last I checked, they were a bunch of old guys and they were having major problems attracting any new members. And not many men golf. What you're talking about sounds a lot like a fictional version of 95% of men's lives, based on what people see in movies.
>Women are starting to smarten up though. The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward.
If women are going after men that are above-their-league, they're going to feel screwed-over a lot and feel like **all** men betrayed them. And it'll be the average men who end up scapegoated. I'm not sure that it counts as "smartening up".
> the more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men moving forward.
I give this as much a chance of happening as I do men collectively not falling for catfishing anymore.
>No. Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do.
What and you believe the average guy can break into these really easily just because he has a magical penis.
Like I get what your saying. But as an average guy, if some woman is ranting at ME about it, well news flash, I am in exactly the same position, my magical penis does not change this. .
Like, feel free to take it up with the freemasons and the old mans club. But I am in the same boat, and I am not fussed.
>The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward.
What is it with the women on this sub and the collective revenge fantasies?
>If men don't treat women better, damaged women are going to withdraw from men! 😠
...promise?
Just in time, too, the biggest issue in the dating market is simps gassing up women. If AI takes that away, the market should heal.
There is no real argument against banning AI girlfriends. It'll just be "Men are ruining society by not going after women."
We have a surplus of men, and I hope that AI can actually help them find a semblance of happiness
>Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do.
Yes, they believe that. Because they don't understand what average mens social networking and careers are like. It's a combination of apex fallacy and movie stereotypes.
In reality, in the corporate world, average women have a much bigger boost from gender and diversity quotas than any sort of social networking boost men get from "old boys clubs" (something that doesn't exist for 95% of men). And of course lots of women get jobs recommendations/hired from other women/social clubs. Many corporations even have an explicitly gendered official club for this type of thing ("Women in X").
Shhh 🤫
Don't tell them. First of all, they don't wanna hear it anyway. And secondly, most Americans have become incredibly extreme and a total global outlier. This is only fixed by a more serious crisis.
Desperate for a relationship with quality men who aren’t simps/pussies ,not sex
It’s women who want the family and kids more than men do
Since the 1900s when feminism started, women have became way more depressed. They are all on anti depressants
Tbh I think in a few years, USA will just turn into a sex worker country, and the quality of men is definitely going to go down for yall lol
Feminism only benefits the top men who want to fuck every girl
Women getting played isn’t gonna change a thing because right now a lot of you are desperate
I think men are going to be shocked in the next few years to see exactly how little women care about having kids and how disgusted women are with men’s weaponized incompetence. Sure most women want a relationship but not at the cost of all the extra unpaid unfulfilling work that currently comes with it which is only getting worse.
Haven’t you heard of housewife syndrome? Nothing is more depressing than unpaid disrespected domestic and sexual labor. So why would women ever want to go back to that? The only thing worse is empty sex. I have to disagree with your vision of the future. I see more MGTOW and more women going 4B. I think the birth rate will keep dropping and the suicide rate of men will keep increasing. I do think the government might try starting a war to try to inspire patriotism to get people to come together but o don’t think it will work.
Women want a family and kids more than men.
You are just making excuses
If u were able to not work and u had a good man who won’t abuse you, you’d take it in a heartbeat
The women outside of here are more happier than American women
No man is gonna be shocked, we just won’t care and just go to a different country
Funny. If that were actually true, I would think more women would be arguing about wanting a family but I don’t ever see that here. It’s always the men trying to convince women that women want family more. Men wouldn’t have to try to sell that so hard if it were actually true.
You know it’s true, ur ego is just in the way
lol women are way more depressed now since the 1970s dude
U know damn well u wouldn’t let ur brother or son date any of these women
Nope. I’m childfree by choice looking for a DINK relationship and the vast majority of female friends, family and coworkers are the same.
IF women are more depressed it’s not from lack of kids. The economy is more than likely the real driving factor for why most people of both genders are more depressed.
I don’t know what “these women” your referring to.
>I would think more women would be arguing about wanting a family
They do.
> but I don’t ever see that here
Because reasonable *people* are consistently repelled by the casual misandry and cruelty of the bad faith trolls who claim to be women.
Also, this *is* a very niche forum.
>Tbh I think in a few years, USA will just turn into a sex worker country
It will take a lot longer than that. I don't think you realize just how big of an *inertia* a country like the US has on any topic precisely because it's big and wealthy.
With that said, that fate can (and likely will) be avoided. The most extreme Americans don't reproduce anyway. So their place will be taken by people with superiour ideas. Through both mass immigration and asynchronous total fertility rate. There *are* people groups in the US with a very healthy total fertility rate. Approximately zero per cent of them are liberals or feminists.
The only question is how to manage the *transitional* situation. There are many hypotheses out there but none too convincing, yet. Most likely it will be a combination of several of the hypotheses formulated so far.
I think each has unique challenges.
The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered, or led on and used for sex and left to clean up whatever mess that includes and bear the burden of what happens.
You don't really have to fear the gender you're dating or not dating and alter your entire lifestyle to be safe. That's pretty fucking easy mode to women.
>The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered
Half of all rape victims are men.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/
80% of murder victims are men.
>led on and used for sex
If it's consensual, it's not used for sex. Don't give out sex to men who are not actively committing and 90% of the problem is solved.
>bear the burden of what happens.
Women have dozens of contraceptive methods, and then there is abortion and adoption.
In the US a woman can rape a man, sue the man for child support for the child she raped out of him, and if the man doesn't pay child support to his rapist te state will throw him in jail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
Also important to remember that half lf all rape victims are men
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/
And that to this day the cdc deliberately erases make rape victims by deliberately excusing it from rape statistics by calling it "made to penetrate" instead, and that to this day it is legally impossible for a woman to rape a man in Switzerland, Spain, and the UK.
>You don't really have to fear the gender you're dating or not dating and alter your entire lifestyle to be safe. That's pretty fucking easy mode to women.
Women's lives are literally so safe that nothing can kill them except the men that women choose to let into their lives. Men are 80% of murder victims, 80% of victims of violent crimes, half the rape and domestic abuse victims, 95% of workplace death victims, 75% of suicide victims, and 75% of homeless victims.
We live in the single safest time for women in the history of the entire planet, bar none, and yet somehow women are more scared than ever.
Your first paragraph is wrong. Can women stop acting like they are the only victims of violence and rewriting history to say that they are the target of all forms of attacks when that is flat out not true? If any other group tried this shit like say white people claiming they were the majority of victims of race based hate crimes, they would be universally panned for it, I don’t understand why women can just spread such blatant fucking misinformation and act like it’s okay.
The fact is women are less likely to be attacked, beaten or murdered. The overwhelming majority of crime and violence is men doing horrible shit to men. Yet when you listen to women, and specifically their victim complex, it's like they can't take a walk on a street.
It’s because of sensationalist true crime media. People constantly pick one in a million murder cases where poor innocent wahmen are targeted by awful male creeps (who women seem to conveniently forget are usually their husbands, boyfriends or family members and not random men on the street…) and spread them around ad nauseaum ad infinitum whereas the hundreds upon hundreds of cases of men being mugged and violently gunned down because they were led to believe that no one ever tries to attack them by brain dead feminist media are never covered because subconsciously women see nothing wrong with random men being killed. Just look at how they respond when you call them out for how solipsistic their view of this is, they literally say “well that’s men killing other men though so whose fault is it?” And “that’s because men start shit with other men and end up dead” lmfao like every man who was ever murdered was a delusional bitch who thought he was John Wick or something you can’t make this shit up, I wonder if women killed women at near the same rate would they even attempt to make this argument? Or would women as always try and paint it as a unique issue only they face where somehow same sex violence is bad when it happens to them but when it happens to men you can just shrug it off and victim blame the same people who are being murdered in the hundreds daily.
I’m not a misogynist, but when women do stuff like this it REALLY pushes me into that headspace.
The people doing all the horrible shit is men and often in dating contexts. You guys cannot be this stupid that in order to try to win on dating you expand to the entire society in all circumstances. Like that's a win even. Yeah, we agree. Men are the most dangerous havoc force in our society. Its surprising we let them out of the house for how much they fuck shit up.
>The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered, or led on and used for sex and left to clean up
The vast majority of the victims of murder are men, though. That's true *everywhere on Earth*.
Also, in the West, you have a much higher chance of dying while driving towards the date than of either being murdered or raped by that said date.
Women don't appreciate at all just how safe the world is for them. And to men it is unfathomable the level of safety that women enjoy.
Actually, it's not men. It's fatty food, it's metastasizing cancer and it's falling down stairs.
In 2022 in the USA, 299,000 women were killed by heart attacks and various other heart issues. 274,000 to cancer. 26,000 to the **flu** or pneumonia. 39,000 women died accidentally (poisoning and car accidents were the top causes).
In contrast, in 2022, 3,653 women were murdered in the USA. 95,000 women were raped. 89,000 women were murdered in the **entire world** in 2022.
12,700 men were murdered in the same year in the USA. This is still **not that much**. Everyone exaggerates how serious crime is.
I'm not saying that to try and make fun of women being scared of men. There is not zero danger, of course. But there is not zero danger in walking out of your house. There's not zero danger in taking a fucking bath. I don't think women should suddenly start walking down dark alleyways but it's important to keep a sense of perspective here. You live in one of the safest periods of time in history, but the society in which you live is bound and determined to make you think that you don't - that this happens to women everytime they walk out of the door and it's a rotten thing to live that way. I'd challenge you to look at why you think this way and what in your life has convinced you of this.
Sources:
Women deaths:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2023/11/press-release-more-women-and-girls-killed-in-2022-even-as-overall-homicide-numbers-fall-says-new-research-from-unodc-and-un-women
Women accidents;
https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D158;jsessionid=8C013A77EF4EC6030E1DACA27637 (this one is kind of weird might have to redo the query)
Male/Female murder:
https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend
EDIT: I'll add one more point here because of your other comments further down on the thread. Of the murders in 2022 - 11% of those convicted were women. Men do kill more women. But to say that only women should fear men (even in dating!) is asinine. People should fear other people... in very small amounts. Because there were 3.2 **million** deaths in the USA in 2022. And there were 15,000 homicides **total**.
What? Men are at significantly more risk of violent crime and being murdered, not to mention the biggest risk to a woman is a man she chose, not random strangers.
I don't believe men have it easy, just like I don't believe women have it easy I believe they have their own unique challenges in dating. Both men and women probably underestimate each other's issues because they down have the same issues and they haven't lived the same lives. They judge things by their own metrics the things that matter to them.
Most men don't even get to experience what their type is, or what kind of personality in a woman meshes with them the best. As they can hardly even choose, but have to be chosen.
We are both hungry and looking for food. One side it’s overwhelmed by the choices and cant decide what dish is better. The other side is equally hungry but dont get any food. He cant choose, he just eat what is provided. How both have equally hard problems? Theres some woman who create male dating apps and tried to match and date woman. They got reality check and admitted its way harder to even initiate simple conversation, so them can check the vibe of the other person.
you cooked brudda
>in dating That's the key word IN dating Lemme break it to you: Women have it hard in dating (meaning handling a relationship) Men have it hard GETTING a date (the step **before** the relationship) Women find the second step of the process hard => meaning they have no trouble in the first one Men find the first step of the process hard => meaning they get to the second step incredibly less compared to women It's not that difficult to understand
I don't disagree that's my point. And because women and men have different challenges that's why it can be difficult for people to understand each other because we hyper focus on the things that are difficult to us.
Well... if more men struggled less at the start, they would be less adverse to relationships down the road and have more relationship skills, which would greatly decrease the problems women run into later as well. Most of these issues are really just self defeating spirals that don't need to be.
People tend only to see the privileges of others and not their challenges, while see their own challenges and not their own privileges. More often than not, when you see people debate feminists and stuff, it's almost entirely because the feminist just doesn't get it. She doesn't see all the challenges men face every day... She only sees all these male benefits in life. And then the men getting angry because they are like, "You're complaining about X Y Z, but you completely ignore this massive list of benefits you get in society I would love to have!" It's basically just people screaming past each other, and why it gets nowhere.
I mean you're not wrong but one of the sides has a multi billion dollar global political machine backing them up and the other side doesn't. Kinda have to take that into account too.
And somehow we should believe it's the feminists who are the victim underdogs
The benefits of being able to be boned by any bloke who is desperate enough to? Would you like that? Because you’re welcome to it.
You think that's the only benefit women have over men? This is exactly what I mean... Most women aren't even aware of their privileges and benefits, because they live in it like water, normalizing it entirely.
What privilege do I have? Being assumed to be the diversity hire and having to work twice as hard to be considered half as good because of the innate bias of men? To have my medical symptoms ignored or considered psychological because almost all study of pathology is carried out on men? To be less likely to have the correct doses of medication and correct treatment because ditto? To be more likely to be killed or seriously injured in a car accident because seatbelts are designed for men? To be more likely to be killed by a current or former partner? To have the second shift after work because male partners don’t feel obliged to share the domestic load? To have my bodily autonomy constantly in danger of being taken away to appease patriarchal religious zealots?
Id rather be assumed to be a diversity hire and have a job with a salary than be a man who can't get the job because there is a massive preference for women and not have a salary
I really appreciate your post because you perfectly highlight my point. People don't even recognize their privileges most of the time... Just their headwinds. As you just showed us. Completely unaware of the benefits of being a woman, you are laser focused on the struggles. I'm not going to go down this path, but I'm sure another will gladly take the baton on this one. But as a man, there are countless things men look at towards women and go, "God... It's so much easier being a woman. I wish I had that set up." You just don't realize it, because you only see your challenges and are probably completely unfamiliar with male struggles because you haven't actually lived them and consider them insignificant. You may resent how society just wants to protect you to fuck you, but men are disposable... Society will gladly watch men fail and offer no help at all. You're just a man who's easily replaced. We don't care if you commit suicide through your struggles, become homeless... It doesn't matter. You're disposable and we can just swap you out. Many men look at that set up and go, "Yeah I wish I had the life vest women have. I'd give up all my privileges for one of those."
I think the issue is that men aren't saying that if you're some tall, attractive, smart, hardworking, connected guy life isn't easier than if you're a women. Women are saying it's equally hard for men and women or harder for women because they're looking at their lives vs these top guys. Men are saying the problem is that it's easier to be an average women than and average guy which I think is mostly true and women do this motte and bailey argument about top flight men.
Correct, this is known as the apex fallacy where you judge the entire group by the performance of the top individuals. Most of womens dating complaints revolve around chad and his lack of commitment. They only see the top males and assume this represents the whole group therefore it’s men who have in easy and good. Its just like the job market feminist will go and complain about how all those male ceos and high earners in top positions have it good and then claim that all men have it like this, just look at the pay gap why are men so privileged in our society. At the same time they’ll competely ignore that 75% of homeless ppl are men. Once you involve the whole group and see the full picture things turn out to be much different then “men bad men oppress women“
Based. The biggest obstacle any person must overcome is the self. When you have a narrow view on the dating scene, you're bound to only see the things you yourself want to see.
Most women have to deal with only a subset of problems that men have to deal with. The funnel for men is tighter at the top end so they dont have the luxury to explore the entire breadth of challenges and must settle for less sooner if they dont want to end up alone.
Agreed. I don't think men have it easy in dating. I think men and women both have issues in dating they are just different. But for some reason men see it as a competition, like we must agree they have it worse than we do. Not sure why that is.
Because we literally have it worse? One side always has options and other side almost never
I think so too. The one thing I believe men do have the upper hand on is how society finds male promiscuity acceptable and normal. Take any debate on N count as a prime example
I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man. But I feel like men are in general less afraid for their safety than women are. And yeah they probably have it easier in terms of career, but I think there are too many nuances to really say.
Career? Maybe 20 years ago but it's a lot easier to get a well paying office job as a uni grad if you are a woman than it is if you are a man because of the quotas and push to get women in the workforce
Are there any studies that show how common that is?
The fact that there is a 2:1 hiring preference for women in stem? https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2015/11/04/women-favored-2-to-1-in-stem-hiring/ "They are more likely to receive hiring offers, are paid roughly the same (in 14 of 16 comparisons across the eight fields), are generally tenured and promoted at the same rate (except in economics), remain in their fields at roughly the same rate, have their grants funded and articles accepted as often and are about as satisfied with their jobs. Articles published by women are cited as often as those by men. In sum, with a few exceptions, the world of academic science in math-based fields today reflects gender fairness, rather than gender bias." "A woman applying for a tenure-track faculty position in STEM … at a U.S. university is twice as likely to be hired as an equally qualified man, if both candidates are highly qualified, according to a new study.”
Later on in the same article - "158 faculty ranked two men and one woman for a tenure-track-assistant professorship, and 94 faculty ranked two women and one man. In the former condition, the female applicant was slightly weaker than her two male competitors, although still strong; in the other condition the male applicant was slightly weaker than his two female competitors, although still strong. Faculty of both genders and in all fields preferred the more-qualified men over the slightly-less-qualified women, and they also preferred the stronger women over the slightly-less-qualified man. This suggests that preference for women among identically-qualified applicants found in experimental studies and in audits does not extend to women whose credentials are even slightly weaker than male counterparts." It
Wow, they don't want less qualified candidates? How does this address the preference for women when all factors were controlled for?
The whole point was they were talking about preferring women regardless of qualifications. This contradicted the entire paragraph, and it was a few paragraphs below it.
In the "real world" there extend considerations beyond just meritocracy - chiefly gender and diversity quotas and political considerations.
And in neither case did they promote the lesser qualified person.
Those who criticize discrimination in education and hiring don’t do so only because “lesser qualified” people get the positions, but also because some protected characteristic *is used as a metric at all*.
>I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man. I can't believe this was sincerely written out. Yall have been encouraged to be victims to such a degree that you've created self-aware cognitive dissonance.
>I think the only thing easy about being a man is less fear of being assaulted. Even though statistically you have a higher chance even as a man. But I feel like men are in general less afraid for their safety than women are. Bro what even is this paragraph? "Men Have it easier when it comes to risk of assault oh wait no they don't actually women just fear assault more because they're neurotic and cowardly."
So it's not even an actual privilege, it's just a mindset thing. No wonder people call feminist talking points weak these days. Can't even find a concrete privilege
Exactly
Is it not true that men are more likely to be the victims of assault and rape?
Ummm, no. Men are slightly more likely to be a victim of a violent crime. https://www.statista.com/statistics/423245/us-violent-crime-victims-by-gender/ I've been assaulted multiple times, even when minding my own business or trying to deescalate. Even when I'm in a group or with my gf/wife I automatically become the main target in a conflict by being the biggest threat. And here's the deal about fear - sure I can take a punch, I'm not made out of glass. But the ones around me can't. So I gotta fear not only for myself, but the ones around me - something that most women never have to deal with. You think you do, but you don't. Not in the same way.
I said men are more likely.
True. Men are more likely to defend themselves when push comes to shove
I remember my Grandad telling me to walk with my head high and if you get a beating, you take it like a man. Living in fear is not mainstream advice for men. I am not saying that "taking a beating like a man" is good advice in and of itself, but its better to have that mindset, than to choose to live in fear.
“No son of mine runs from a fight, but I don’t mind him losing one.” - my dad
Do we have the same dad?
Same. My dad, uncle, and grandfather all taught to aways defend yourself even if you lose. Better to fight back than to let people walk all over you
When I did get a serious beating, I had a work colleague talk his mate who ran a Mui Thai gym, into giving me free 1 on 1 lessons as well as free general classes for a while. But as we know "MeN dOnT sUpPoRt EaCh OtHeR" Like literally being beaten and dragged around is potentially something that will happen. What matters is after being beaten and dragged around, can you get back on your two feet and keep going. That is what defines character.
I did boxing and lost 100 lbs. I've been to altercations that a simple 1-2 was enough to get the bum to back off. I highly recommend every man to learn a martial art. Not only to be in shape and defend yourself, but to also train yourself mentally to overcome challenges. Yes, that's a philosophy for life. You will get thrown to the ground and it's gonna hurt. But you always have to get back up and keep moving forward
I had some homeless dude try and attack me, well I am not sure what he was doing, he was chasing me and trying to grab me. Imagine if I hadn't learnt to defend myself, imagine if I didn't have confidence, imagine if I had been told I was a victim. I could be dead, have a gaping butt hole or who knows what. Luckily I was bought up to look after myself and not expect others to sort my shit out for me, so those consequences are coulds not reality. And yeah boxing is good. I generally just do the gym these days and outdoor persuits. But when I am in the gym, I will every so often have a 10 - 15 minute session on the heavy punch bag at the end of a workout. Gotta keep them knuckle sandwiches fresh and ready.
When women say men have it easy, the last thing we’re thinking about is dating and hook ups.
dating and hook ups are important to men however. and because women can get them so easy it is basically a non-issue that they never think about
Just like for most people walking no problem. But to a handicap person walking a fantasy they use to or never had.
Except there are far more men who can't get dates than handicapped people. Also, we do make, hell, mandate, adaptations for handicapped people. But for some reason ***any*** adaptation for men who struggle is somehow taboo to even conceptualize. Or discussed in caricature terms. But then again, the casual and routine cruelty of the women on this sub is not surprising at all.
Sexual selection is and has been a zero sum game for all of biological life existence. Outside of cultural enforced monogamy you can't being equality to a situation that by it very nature is inequal without forcing couples together like the middle east which is evil. Unfortunately this part of life that brings us the most psychological pleasure also brings us the most psychological pain.
I think the best adaptation for men who struggle is unironically sexbots because that way it can be done without violating the women's rights. Unless we can find some way to modify human attraction and sex drive to bring men and women in sync with each other (with their consent of course)
Feminism (aka women's sexual trade union) vigorously opposes sexbots as well. >with their consent of course Oh really? I don't remember being asked for my consent when my building was threatened with demolition unless I spend a few thousand bucks to make "handicapped adaptations" even though exact *zero* handicapped people have stepped foot in it in the last 30 years. Adaptations for *far tinier* minorities were made against the explicit consent of the majority all the time. But somehow *any* adaptation for 30%+ of young men must be discussed in the most sterile and considerate terms for the minor inconveniences of the most privileged and entitled group in the entire human history - namely white women.
Feminism needs to get over themselves in this case. Unfortunately male sexuality in general is often demonized no matter how it is expressed or who it is directed too, even inanimate objects. (Just look at how women who use dildos/vibrators are talked about compared to men who use fleshlights) And those actions made that affected you without your consent were also bad. But just because they were doesn't make it right to do the same thing to someone else. I think the best case scenario in the near future for both genders is for men to become happy without women, because [they clearly don't like us that much](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1chousv/how_would_you_create_a_dating_app_in_mens_favor/l277i1h/).
>And those actions made that affected you without your consent were also bad. But just because they were doesn't make it right to do the same thing to someone else. I disagree. In part because I don't subscribe to the neo-Protestant ideology that "two wrongs don't make it right". In the real world, throughout history, two wrongs routinely ***do*** make it right. And ***might*** also always makes right. >I think the best case scenario in the near future for both genders is for men to become happy without women, because [they clearly don't like us that much](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/1chousv/how_would_you_create_a_dating_app_in_mens_favor/l277i1h/). I'm more optimistic actually. I lived on 3 continents and I insist on a more global view. Reddit is schewed with the considerations of under 2% of the world population. In my country the bear thing was laughed at and labelled as "Anglos being stupid in public once more". Dating apps are nowhere near as important as way too many users on Reddit/social media make them to be. And the dopey opinions of literally irrelevant "comedians" have nowhere near as much influence as the Americans like to think they do. It's a tiny portion of the West that is temporarily fucked. The world is fine and it will continue to be fine, for the most part. Traveling the world helps a lot in understanding just how narrow and, quite frankly, extremist the American point of view really is.
Men have it much easier in a sense that we don’t chase players out of our league, and let him use us to be a temporary placeholder gf and sex toy in hopes of a relationship. If women looked in the mirror and actually dated in their league, all dating issues would instantly be over. If a guy is on a date, decent chance he can make that girl his girlfriend. Dating women date endlessly top down on the best options available. Dating for women is their chance to land a guy much better than them.
Who determines who is in whose league? If a woman is dating, clearly the men she’s dating are in her league. Otherwise they wouldn’t be dating.
Yes I’ve come to understand that this is what most dating women wrongly believe. If they are on a date or dating a guy nonexclusively, they think that’s their league and turn their nose at guys that actually are.
They’re on a date, how was her belief wrong?
Guys date down to get easy access to sex and for company. Only 20% of guys can actively date.
Wtf kind of incel bullshit is this?
I really don't get the line of thought that men are always dating below their own looks. Like damn, maybe these dudes are just gay if they rate men's looks so highly?
Right if anything I keep seeing drop dead gorgeous girls next to some guy who looks like a thumb. It's always interesting on the rare occasion I see a hot guy w an ugly girl. I'm pretty much a lesbian though so my perception might be skewed when it comes to male vs female attractiveness
Funny, since not only me, but most of my guy friends see the opposite and nobody saw that trend 15-20 years ago. By opposite i mean, mostly the guy looks better, ofc there are also some examples where the girl looks better than the guy, but they are rare to see, especially under 30
>a lesbian though so my perception might be skewed when it comes to male vs female attractiveness It's not, even us straight women find women much more attractive than males. Ask any straight women, we only find a small percentage of males attractive, but we find most women attractive. That's why we say "All women are beautiful" we mean it.
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Most guys date just fine,, and people similar to them. I am just confused as you seem to be bragging about having casual sex.
No, the people you date are your league lol
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It's always so funny there's a million posts about men struggling but then I point out this thing about leagues and EVERY SINGLE GUY says the same "oh, actually, I'm Ryan Gosling, me and my 9 inch dick date uglies but only because it's easier but I could totally have a 9 gf" So what is it? Are men really struggling? Is every guy here is special? My personal theory is that men really struggle because they overestimate their own value. The standards are too high and they project that to women.
Men have very low standards and have to take what they can get. Women have ridiculous standards. You also see loads of women rejecting men who are objectively above them.
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Only good looking dudes do it well. Well, and some with the right social skills or those who are succes in life (good job, good money).
There’s truth to what you say but also not. Yes in a marketplace, the fact that a buyer engages with a seller means theyve agreed on price However, having hookups and relationships are two different markets. People always ‘date within their league’ in the sense that a mutually consenting transaction occurred But what men mean when they say they have sex with girls below their league is that men who are the top 20% with respect to looks or desirability, will often fuck girls who are say top 30 or 40%. That’s it. The disconnect comes from the fact that women often only find the top 20 or 30% of men physically attractive enough to fuck casually. So yes people are always dating in their league but a man who is deemed a top 10% attractive by women will often be fucking a top 25% woman AND a top 10% woman. This has been said 100s of times on this subreddit but clearly not both of the women can monogamously have that 1 man The opposite simply is not true for women
He’s in your league if you can get a committed relationship from him when you want him to do it. Saying he’s in your league because he accepts to have sex with you is like a man saying he’s a 10/10 because he paid a 10/10 in looks prostitutes to have sex with him. Men rarely deny free sex, just like prostitutes will rarely deny sex to a customer that pays properly. There’s no achievement in any of that, so there’s no inference about leagues. Both people will get what they want nearly 100% of the time, and there’s nothing to infer.
Someone might be in your league but not want a relationship You’re not going to get every job for which you’re qualified if the employer isn’t hiring
>Someone might be in your league but not want a relationship That's what "when you want him to do it" means. I granted that at the start, and it has nothing to do with anything else I said about how to measure "leagues." Sex is cheap for men, so getting sex from men represents nothing about how he values you. On the other hand, no man who has a chance to propose to a woman worthy of a relationship will miss that chance. First, because that's very rare. Second, because that's what being worthy of a relationship means. If he doesn't want a relationship with you at that time, he does not see you at his league at that time. That's what his actions are saying. As he loses value, things may change with time, but it has nothing to do with leagues: it's a real matter of value. An employer is \*always\* hiring anyone who's demonstrably profitable at any time. And that's \*always\* true because it's rational at any time. That is, someone whose marginal utility is higher than their salary. That is, someone brings in more money to the business than their salary. That is, someone who makes the business better. That is, someone who puts something on the table. This person will \*always\* have a job because it's rational for the business to give this person a job. All businesses are motivated by profit, and they always hire anyone who's profitable to the business. The business not hiring you doesn't mean it's not hiring.
well men have to figure out what their league is and men have it super easy apparently so it cant be that hard
You know men can use a women just for sex and pretend he is genuine right ?
I said dating. Not casually hooking up with
A lot of men here seem to think you’re dating league is based only on your looks. They’re going to be shocked to find out people in lasting relationships take a lot more than that into account.
They’re talking about a date and maybe hooking up, not a lasting relationship
Wait? Is it not? Then what are some things to be considered?
Exactly. Men and women have different problems. Men struggle with dating, women struggle with safety and getting the respect and recognition in the professional world. But some guys here only view the world through a sex lense, so obviously they're gonna think that women's lives are magnitudes times better just cause they can have all the sex (that women actually don't want).
> But some guys here only view the world through a sex lense Surprise surprise, people value less what they already have. Just like how people in 1st world countries never think about the privilige of having a hot shower and enough to eat, because it has never been an issue for them.
>women struggle with safety Men are 6-7 more likely to be assaulted or murdered than women in the US. Your fear is self-imposed.
90% of rape victims are women
Source?
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence https://supportingsurvivors.humboldt.edu/statistics https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/2015-01/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf
Look into those studies and how 1.) Old they are, (circa 1998) 2.) How they define rape Hint to tern made to penetrate had to be created for a reason. This is the world most hidden in the open secret.
90% of at work fatalities are men. What is your point? Most violent crime is not rapes.
We’re not talking about work. What’s your point?
that "90% of rape victims are women" isnt a good rebuttal to "Men are 6-7 more likely to be assaulted or murdered than women in the US." like woop-de-do men are raped less they are the victim of every other violent crime much more
Maybe men shouldn’t be so violent then
i dont think all men are the same guy
Is it just the one who’s wreaking so much havoc? Or can’t you tell either?
Also women don’t avoid the most dangerous men. They actually hang around those likely to rape on college campuses. It’s always weird that women will talk about how all men are evil. But won’t specify who is doing the raping or avoid the men doing it. Frats would be a dead concept if women avoided and generalized like they say they do online. https://sexualassaultvictimadvocates.com/fraternities/#:~:text=Sexual%20Assaults%20in%20Fraternity%20Houses,college%20women”%20(Vox).
Ma'am, this is Purple Pill Debate not "Step up your career"
We’re not talking about sex, that’s why Such a male thing to prioritize
We don't think you have it easier, you just have it different. You have a harder time attracting people at all, but a much easier time not being under threat by people based on their attraction to you.
1) What is "a lot?" And why do men think women, en masse, ever even begin thinking about how much average men get laid? Y'all, most women never spend any amount of time pondering the frequency of sex men have, much less a specific demographic of men. It's just not on our fucking radars. If you poll women and ask them if they've ever stopped to think about how much sex men are having, the vast majority are going to say no. You need to stop assuming we think about your concerns and fixations like you do. Your obsession and focus on getting your dicks wet does not translate into the obsessions and focuses of women. 2) This is also not a belief women have, for the same reasons as the previous one. Also - >If you have an average looking face, you'll get rejected a lot and have to work hard just for dates with women *on your own level.* ... >A guy making 400k but 5/10 in looks at age 35 is still going to struggle a lot *if he's going for women* ***above 5/10.*** ... "Gosh, I have to work so hard as an average-looking man to get all those above-average looking women who are on my level!!" 😠😠 >3) Older rich guys attract lots of younger women. No, again, this is a male belief, not a female belief. As all older women were once young, we are well aware how most older rich men are still not appealing to the majority of younger women. We know what we are and aren't attracted to, since, you know... *we are or were younger women at one point ourselves.* I rate this post a solipsism 9/10
I don't agree. You and others you know may not have those personal views, but a lot of women will think that other women do.
Why are you even asking women then if you already know women better than we know ourselves? Tf is the point of asking us anything at all? You already have all the answers 🙄
Why the attitude
Because it's completely pointless and bad-faith to make a Q4W post when you don't believe what women tell you? It's incredible that so many men genuinely believe we spend any amount of time thinking about how often men get their dicks wet and under which conditions are more or less likely than others. There's not a single compelling reason why this would ever be something women would concern themselves with. It's just not on an average woman's radar.
men don't have it easy! because it's > 1. hard to get laid if this is the only gripe with life men have they have it damn easy lmao
With the exception of income (and even then the money goes to joint bank accounts for married partners so women benefit from men's income) women score better than men on virtually every si gke metric we can measure. If you think that's the only gripe men have in life it's either because you're not paying attention or you don't care.
i think that's the only gripe men have in life cause op said so lmao. this is his top 3 gripes, no?
Isn't the entire biggest gripe men have that they are invisible? The fact that nobody cares or even knows of men's issues shows how hard men's life really is.
Yeah pretty much that, and largely the single biggest reason for men being invisible is the gender empathy gap. People plain just don't care about men nearly as much as about women. And for some reason men can scream it out loud until they're blue in the face and feminism still wouldn't catch it.
So have separate bank accounts lol
https://www.forbes.com/health/dating/dating-statistics/ >Males were more likely to have met someone on a dating app and have it lead to an exclusive relationship (75%), compared to 66% of females. >Additionally, nearly 68% of males felt positively about dating, compared to around 55% of females. Is there a term for something like the apex fallacy, but for losers instead? Because I feel like that would explain a lot of the viewpoints expressed on this subreddit.
[https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/3868557-most-young-men-are-single-most-young-women-are-not/)
Because women are hooking up with multiple guys while most guys would prefer a relationship. And of course women aren’t going to be satisfied after getting into a relationship after racking up 10+ bodies since they’re supposed to be loyal and not fucking Chad who is out of her league but won’t commit to her
I have a question. On which planet do you live? Most guys would prefer a relationship? This is totally incorrect. As the lady below indicates, perhaps a quarter of men are built to pursue LTRs almost exclusively. My guess is that perhaps twenty-five percent of men will always go for promiscuous sex, even if they're married or in a LTR. The remaining half are hybrids that will go back and forth, or will be focused on casual sex while young and then eventually try to do LTRs as they get worn down by age and experience. Maybe a third of women are hard-core LTR types (suspect many shown in poll below are fibbing because good girls don't admit to wanting casual sex). Probably 15 or 20% are sexual adventurers. The rest: hybrid that change hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or yearly based on changing tides of hormones, friend influence, social pressures, availability of Chads or convincing predators, presence of pastors/imams, prevalence of alcohol and/or potent drugs, and degree of frustration with shitty, empty hookups with incompetent/lazy men.
>Because women are hooking up with multiple guys while most guys would prefer a relationship. https://preview.redd.it/7n9gn65zz19d1.png?width=840&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c92e1c91be782ff8ee6fc4e2d7654aeac413c05 :)
You can say you prefer LTR and do casual sex anyway... situationships and "are we dating the same man".
We dont think this
No. Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do. As for relationships, it’s common knowledge women have more of an advantage. The only way men can break that advantage is to lie and lead women on which usually takes the form of men claiming they love you. Women are starting to smarten up though. The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward.
> it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do. I think you vastly overestimate the amount of "networking" that guys do. Heck, what percentage of guys are freemasons? Last I checked, they were a bunch of old guys and they were having major problems attracting any new members. And not many men golf. What you're talking about sounds a lot like a fictional version of 95% of men's lives, based on what people see in movies. >Women are starting to smarten up though. The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward. If women are going after men that are above-their-league, they're going to feel screwed-over a lot and feel like **all** men betrayed them. And it'll be the average men who end up scapegoated. I'm not sure that it counts as "smartening up".
Tbh I got all my jobs through networking. I am involved in embedded systems community and in local cycling group.
>feel like all men betrayed them. I don't think she cares. Collective guilt/shame/responsibility are the name of the game now.
It’s not what you know, it’s who you know, and that old school tie network runs deep.
> the more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men moving forward. I give this as much a chance of happening as I do men collectively not falling for catfishing anymore.
>No. Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do. What and you believe the average guy can break into these really easily just because he has a magical penis. Like I get what your saying. But as an average guy, if some woman is ranting at ME about it, well news flash, I am in exactly the same position, my magical penis does not change this. . Like, feel free to take it up with the freemasons and the old mans club. But I am in the same boat, and I am not fussed.
>The more women that get screwed over the harder it’s going to be for men going forward. What is it with the women on this sub and the collective revenge fantasies? >If men don't treat women better, damaged women are going to withdraw from men! 😠 ...promise?
im surprised simps still simp. youd think men wouldve got tired how they get treated by women at this point
AI and VR hasn’t gotten advanced enough yet. Wait two years lol
Just in time, too, the biggest issue in the dating market is simps gassing up women. If AI takes that away, the market should heal. There is no real argument against banning AI girlfriends. It'll just be "Men are ruining society by not going after women." We have a surplus of men, and I hope that AI can actually help them find a semblance of happiness
I mean... are y'all not here constantly complaining about "male loneliness"?
>y'all Want to try again?
You all.
Ooh, swing and a miss.
are you slow?
No, I just refuse to engage with slow people who collectivize shame.
Oh okay just checking because entering a debate sub and only being able to go "nu uh!" is exactly what a slow person would do
It's a good thing I didn't say that. I just quoted the exact word I had a problem with so a slow person like yourself would get a clue.
This was never hidden. Men just don't call it lying. They call it running game. Starting to smarten up? It was always there for you to see lol
>Many women believe men have it easier in life when it comes to careers for example because it’s easier for them to network as most networking happens at bars, golf courses and within male friend groups like the good old boys club in the police department and political spears as well as in the freemasons; all of which is really difficult for women to break into if they ever do. Yes, they believe that. Because they don't understand what average mens social networking and careers are like. It's a combination of apex fallacy and movie stereotypes. In reality, in the corporate world, average women have a much bigger boost from gender and diversity quotas than any sort of social networking boost men get from "old boys clubs" (something that doesn't exist for 95% of men). And of course lots of women get jobs recommendations/hired from other women/social clubs. Many corporations even have an explicitly gendered official club for this type of thing ("Women in X").
It’s not gonna be harder for men at all in the future Women in America are heading for depression, and they are getting really desperate
Shhh 🤫 Don't tell them. First of all, they don't wanna hear it anyway. And secondly, most Americans have become incredibly extreme and a total global outlier. This is only fixed by a more serious crisis.
Lmao 🤣
Desperate for what exactly? For a high paying prestigious career? Sure. For their own cottage/apartment or home? Sure. For sex? Never.
Desperate for a relationship with quality men who aren’t simps/pussies ,not sex It’s women who want the family and kids more than men do Since the 1900s when feminism started, women have became way more depressed. They are all on anti depressants Tbh I think in a few years, USA will just turn into a sex worker country, and the quality of men is definitely going to go down for yall lol Feminism only benefits the top men who want to fuck every girl Women getting played isn’t gonna change a thing because right now a lot of you are desperate
I think men are going to be shocked in the next few years to see exactly how little women care about having kids and how disgusted women are with men’s weaponized incompetence. Sure most women want a relationship but not at the cost of all the extra unpaid unfulfilling work that currently comes with it which is only getting worse. Haven’t you heard of housewife syndrome? Nothing is more depressing than unpaid disrespected domestic and sexual labor. So why would women ever want to go back to that? The only thing worse is empty sex. I have to disagree with your vision of the future. I see more MGTOW and more women going 4B. I think the birth rate will keep dropping and the suicide rate of men will keep increasing. I do think the government might try starting a war to try to inspire patriotism to get people to come together but o don’t think it will work.
Women want a family and kids more than men. You are just making excuses If u were able to not work and u had a good man who won’t abuse you, you’d take it in a heartbeat The women outside of here are more happier than American women No man is gonna be shocked, we just won’t care and just go to a different country
Funny. If that were actually true, I would think more women would be arguing about wanting a family but I don’t ever see that here. It’s always the men trying to convince women that women want family more. Men wouldn’t have to try to sell that so hard if it were actually true.
You know it’s true, ur ego is just in the way lol women are way more depressed now since the 1970s dude U know damn well u wouldn’t let ur brother or son date any of these women
Nope. I’m childfree by choice looking for a DINK relationship and the vast majority of female friends, family and coworkers are the same. IF women are more depressed it’s not from lack of kids. The economy is more than likely the real driving factor for why most people of both genders are more depressed. I don’t know what “these women” your referring to.
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> women are way more depressed now since the 1970s dude isn't everyone
>I would think more women would be arguing about wanting a family They do. > but I don’t ever see that here Because reasonable *people* are consistently repelled by the casual misandry and cruelty of the bad faith trolls who claim to be women. Also, this *is* a very niche forum.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/women-children-study-1.7119845
>Tbh I think in a few years, USA will just turn into a sex worker country It will take a lot longer than that. I don't think you realize just how big of an *inertia* a country like the US has on any topic precisely because it's big and wealthy. With that said, that fate can (and likely will) be avoided. The most extreme Americans don't reproduce anyway. So their place will be taken by people with superiour ideas. Through both mass immigration and asynchronous total fertility rate. There *are* people groups in the US with a very healthy total fertility rate. Approximately zero per cent of them are liberals or feminists. The only question is how to manage the *transitional* situation. There are many hypotheses out there but none too convincing, yet. Most likely it will be a combination of several of the hypotheses formulated so far.
I think each has unique challenges. The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered, or led on and used for sex and left to clean up whatever mess that includes and bear the burden of what happens. You don't really have to fear the gender you're dating or not dating and alter your entire lifestyle to be safe. That's pretty fucking easy mode to women.
>The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered Half of all rape victims are men. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/ 80% of murder victims are men. >led on and used for sex If it's consensual, it's not used for sex. Don't give out sex to men who are not actively committing and 90% of the problem is solved. >bear the burden of what happens. Women have dozens of contraceptive methods, and then there is abortion and adoption. In the US a woman can rape a man, sue the man for child support for the child she raped out of him, and if the man doesn't pay child support to his rapist te state will throw him in jail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer Also important to remember that half lf all rape victims are men https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/ And that to this day the cdc deliberately erases make rape victims by deliberately excusing it from rape statistics by calling it "made to penetrate" instead, and that to this day it is legally impossible for a woman to rape a man in Switzerland, Spain, and the UK. >You don't really have to fear the gender you're dating or not dating and alter your entire lifestyle to be safe. That's pretty fucking easy mode to women. Women's lives are literally so safe that nothing can kill them except the men that women choose to let into their lives. Men are 80% of murder victims, 80% of victims of violent crimes, half the rape and domestic abuse victims, 95% of workplace death victims, 75% of suicide victims, and 75% of homeless victims. We live in the single safest time for women in the history of the entire planet, bar none, and yet somehow women are more scared than ever.
Your first paragraph is wrong. Can women stop acting like they are the only victims of violence and rewriting history to say that they are the target of all forms of attacks when that is flat out not true? If any other group tried this shit like say white people claiming they were the majority of victims of race based hate crimes, they would be universally panned for it, I don’t understand why women can just spread such blatant fucking misinformation and act like it’s okay.
The fact is women are less likely to be attacked, beaten or murdered. The overwhelming majority of crime and violence is men doing horrible shit to men. Yet when you listen to women, and specifically their victim complex, it's like they can't take a walk on a street.
It’s because of sensationalist true crime media. People constantly pick one in a million murder cases where poor innocent wahmen are targeted by awful male creeps (who women seem to conveniently forget are usually their husbands, boyfriends or family members and not random men on the street…) and spread them around ad nauseaum ad infinitum whereas the hundreds upon hundreds of cases of men being mugged and violently gunned down because they were led to believe that no one ever tries to attack them by brain dead feminist media are never covered because subconsciously women see nothing wrong with random men being killed. Just look at how they respond when you call them out for how solipsistic their view of this is, they literally say “well that’s men killing other men though so whose fault is it?” And “that’s because men start shit with other men and end up dead” lmfao like every man who was ever murdered was a delusional bitch who thought he was John Wick or something you can’t make this shit up, I wonder if women killed women at near the same rate would they even attempt to make this argument? Or would women as always try and paint it as a unique issue only they face where somehow same sex violence is bad when it happens to them but when it happens to men you can just shrug it off and victim blame the same people who are being murdered in the hundreds daily. I’m not a misogynist, but when women do stuff like this it REALLY pushes me into that headspace.
The people doing all the horrible shit is men and often in dating contexts. You guys cannot be this stupid that in order to try to win on dating you expand to the entire society in all circumstances. Like that's a win even. Yeah, we agree. Men are the most dangerous havoc force in our society. Its surprising we let them out of the house for how much they fuck shit up.
>The easy part for dudes is that it's hugely unlikely they'll be raped, murdered, or led on and used for sex and left to clean up The vast majority of the victims of murder are men, though. That's true *everywhere on Earth*. Also, in the West, you have a much higher chance of dying while driving towards the date than of either being murdered or raped by that said date. Women don't appreciate at all just how safe the world is for them. And to men it is unfathomable the level of safety that women enjoy.
Oh please. Who do you think is fucking women up? Fairies. No, it's men. All of our lack of safety is men.
Actually, it's not men. It's fatty food, it's metastasizing cancer and it's falling down stairs. In 2022 in the USA, 299,000 women were killed by heart attacks and various other heart issues. 274,000 to cancer. 26,000 to the **flu** or pneumonia. 39,000 women died accidentally (poisoning and car accidents were the top causes). In contrast, in 2022, 3,653 women were murdered in the USA. 95,000 women were raped. 89,000 women were murdered in the **entire world** in 2022. 12,700 men were murdered in the same year in the USA. This is still **not that much**. Everyone exaggerates how serious crime is. I'm not saying that to try and make fun of women being scared of men. There is not zero danger, of course. But there is not zero danger in walking out of your house. There's not zero danger in taking a fucking bath. I don't think women should suddenly start walking down dark alleyways but it's important to keep a sense of perspective here. You live in one of the safest periods of time in history, but the society in which you live is bound and determined to make you think that you don't - that this happens to women everytime they walk out of the door and it's a rotten thing to live that way. I'd challenge you to look at why you think this way and what in your life has convinced you of this. Sources: Women deaths: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/understanding/statistics https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm https://www.unwomen.org/en/news-stories/press-release/2023/11/press-release-more-women-and-girls-killed-in-2022-even-as-overall-homicide-numbers-fall-says-new-research-from-unodc-and-un-women Women accidents; https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D158;jsessionid=8C013A77EF4EC6030E1DACA27637 (this one is kind of weird might have to redo the query) Male/Female murder: https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend EDIT: I'll add one more point here because of your other comments further down on the thread. Of the murders in 2022 - 11% of those convicted were women. Men do kill more women. But to say that only women should fear men (even in dating!) is asinine. People should fear other people... in very small amounts. Because there were 3.2 **million** deaths in the USA in 2022. And there were 15,000 homicides **total**.
What? Men are at significantly more risk of violent crime and being murdered, not to mention the biggest risk to a woman is a man she chose, not random strangers.
Only men can hurt women, women can't ever hurt men so men have noting to worry about. Very empathetic and not self serving at all.
You are too smart to have written such a stupid take.