Peculiar. HOAs usually have to release the house prior to sale, and they force the seller to satisfy any unpaid invoices, fines or violations prior to the transfer.
They said fees haven't been assessed. And they are in fact OP's violations now that they own the house. HOA isn't going to decide they don't need to fix their lawn and paint just because they are new owners.
Sorry, disagree. OP was not the owner when the violations occurred. HOA violations aren’t against properties, they are against people. Specifically owners or tenants.
Source: I am on an HOA board.
An on going violation of HOA rules would need to be brought up to standard. It can't just be ignored forever. The HOA isn't going to fine them unless they ignore the issue though. By your logic I could paint the exterior of my house pokka dot pink and white, sell it quickly, and the new owners never have to fix it?
Former board member here and I disagree, respectfully. Here they would be violations to our CC & R's & Bylaws that we as home owners agree to uphold upon purcashe..
In our community, the violation notices are sent monthly. As a board we direct the mgmt company to send a notice or hold, so in this case it would not have gone out. Rather the ARC committee, that I was chair of, would allow the new home owner a chance to move in and then visit them. Depending upon the egregiousness of the violation they would be advised that they are inspected monthly for conformity and then we would allow them time. We stay on top of things, so at least here it would be easy to give them 60 days because there is not much that the old owner would not have taken care of. A lawn's bare spots might be an over look because it would depend upon the time of year as a growing season.
We always allow new owners grace as it is not a nice welcome, but it at the direction of the board members to the mgmt company to send them out. We host a welcome to the community gathering too.
Well you would be wrong. The home is in violation not the owner. If owner sells and home still has violations you’re not able to go after the seller. The buyer is now the member and responsible to cure any violations
Source: I own a HOA management company
I guess each HOA works differently. In our HOA it’s very clear: if you incur violations and move out, you still owe the HOA, not the new owner. We have taken people to court over trying it.
You're talking about fines that were assessed to the prior owner before they sold. I don't know why you are ignoring the fact that fines haven't yet been assessed in this case. Everyone else here is talking about the fact that the paint looks shitty now and the new owner is going to have to deal with that if they don't want to incur future fines.
I guarantee you have never gotten a court judgement requiring that a former owner come back and paint a house to meet HOA standards after selling.
They weren’t fined tho. They were told to fix things. So the house itself is still in violation. OP doesn’t owe money TO the HOA. They’d owe money to the companies who fix the violations.
You might want to study up on that. Violations are against the property and must be cured before sale or any other ownership change.
Source: I am also an HOA board member.
The violations appear to be ongoing, they just existed before close. Yes, OP has to still repair the lawn or paint the house or bring in the trash cans.
The OP might win enough to cover costs in a small claims case assuming they can prove the seller knew. They can also report the selling agent to the board of realtors for not disclosing. They could probably sue them all but damages would be minuscule and small claims would be a better venue.
The lawn and fence didn't leave with the previous owners.... The issues are still currently present in the property and the current obwrs have to deal with them. Their recourse would be to go after the sellers. That said, for some paint and a few pieces of sod, it may not be worth it.
They can ask him to fix things, they can't fine him for things that were present on day 1.
Reasonable people don't do that to strangers just bevshse they can.
CC&Rs are attached to the property so violations are against the property. The current owner is responsible for violations.
Tenants are only bound by their lease. An HOA cannot fine a tenant but the owner can pass the fines onto the tenant if it says so in the lease.
Source: Former Certified Manager of Community Associations and current board member.
They said the HOA signed off on the house sale. The infractions occurred between then and when the owners left. This is not the new homeowners liability.
How do you imagine this playing out? OP fixes nothing because he claims it isn't his liability, and the HOA just...agrees to let his paint and lawn stay ugly forever?
Advice like yours is going to get people slapped with a lien.
This whole post is filled with comments from OP making it very obvious that the problems still exist. The whole point of this post in the first place is that he doesn't want want to be responsible for fixing them. Read before you try to sound like an authority on a topic.
Incorrect. Sorry. It might not seem fair but as long as the home is in violation, the current owners are responsible.
Can they go to small claims and force the previous owner to reimburse? Maybe. Is it worth the hassle? Probably not.
What exactly are you expecting to happen prior owners to pay to put down grass and paint the fence? You obviously knew the state they were in when you closed. These aren’t things that an inspection would find as they are purely aesthetic.
This sounds like a weekend of elbow grease. Or a few hundred bucks at most. It sounds like you won’t even be fined if you take care of it quickly.
I think everyone is taking my examples as literal. That’s not the case and I’ve talked about a few additional ones in other comments. It’s more than just a weekend and minor inconvenience. But in any event my point of the post was just to see if there was any recourse. I got the answers from other helpful posters.
Well you’re asking what your recourse is and that relies heavily on what the actual things are that weren’t disclosed as to whether or not there was an obligation to disclose.
The two examples you gave are easily observable and not material defects so they don’t need to be disclosed. There may have been an obligation to disclose the violations if they knew about them but they may not have and you’ll have a hard time proving it.
If there’s something more substantial then it may be worth discussing but you’d have to say what that is.
Is there an appeal process? Do the HOA bylaws require any notice before fines? Maybe you can make the case that notice wasn't given because you weren't the owner.
It's not a good sign of things to come for them to be this committed to going after the previous owner, since that's really what's happening here.
Reasonable people would simply say "hey you're the new owner, but the old owner was a jerk. If you don't mind taking care of x, y, Z, we'd really appreciate it".
Instead, they're trying to make sure you know what's up and how it's going to be as a new resident.
I'm sorry, man.
These HOA's are terrible.
>HOAs usually have to release the house prior to sale
That's not true in all states. I know it's not true in California. HOA violations stay with the property on a change of ownership. The purpose of violations is to maintain the neighborhood, not to punish the owner. If the violation just went away on sale then they would lose that purpose.
If violations exist when the house is up for sale, it's up to the buyer and seller to decide what to do about them, just like any other maintenance issue. Seller is legally required to disclose if they are aware of the violations, but it's always wise for the buyer to get a report from the HOA before closing.
OP should ask their agent what to do. They should know this stuff.
I don’t exactly understand what you’re saying but wouldn’t their duty to disclose cover this? Wouldn’t that be them violating their side of the agreement?
We did clear inspections including HOA but this was not disclosed (and apparently violations were noted after we cleared HOA).
Entirely depends on your state disclosure laws and your contract. Florida doesn’t require HOA violations in disclosure for example but most mortgage companies won’t let you close without an estoppel saying no known / open violations.
How is that even possible? Because a violation pre closing would probably also be a material issue impacting the ability to maintain the home. I assume a purchase agreement would require sellers to maintain the home in a like state. So if a new violation pops up, wouldn’t that also fall under that?
I'm with ya but HOA violations are more often bitter people freaking over stupid than they are material.
if the fine is less than mid thousands, no lawyer will take this on, waste of their time and yours
if there is no fine which even if there is one the HOA board will likely give you a one time pass, you don't have any problems
The title company got any estoppel, it probably was received a few weeks before closing. After the estoppel was issued, the violations were issued. This does happen sometimes. Contact the title company and they should take care of it for you.
Normally before closing, HOAs are contacted to divvy out who costs belong to whom as part of closing costs. If there are fines belonging to Seller, that's on their part half of the closing sheet so it's deducted from their proceeds.
You, as a new buyer, only get charged for things you are responsible for (i.e., maintenance, move-in fees, any admin fees, etc.).
Did that not that happen with your closing?
They, the sellers, should disclose any changes with the property since the original disclosures. But often sellers do not, or the letter fell through the cracks while they were moving, who knows.
To prevent this, agents representing the buyer and the Title Company are supposed to check with HOA the day before closing. It is possible that this is a title issue, in that there was an encumbrance on the property at the time of closing. Title companies are supposed to find this out before closing and either get it taken care of by the sellers, or if that is not possible, bring it to your attention at the closing table, in writing. This is why we have Title companies, and pay them fees - to do this. If the violation is very minor, the buyer may choose to take care of it in order to carry on and not delay closing (such as pulling up some dried up flowers in a small flower bed, something like that). When the violations are greater, such as in your case, the buyer can certainly refuse to close until the seller either takes care of the violation, or compensates you at closing for the work needed to be in compliance.
You are doing nothing wrong here by asking this. You are not a "Karen". Maybe you work 60 hours a week, or maybe you are physically unable to take care of these things, or maybe you have better things to do and this should have been taken care of or detected by the title company. These commentors are being hostile and ridiculous, unless it is a very small, inexpensive defect that is easy to fix, such as a 3 foot tree branch fell on the grass in a storm and looks unsightly - sure, we would normally just take care of that ourselves. Take 5 minutes to haul it to the trash can.
A fair deal is expected in Real Estate. The sellers were remiss in taking care of some things while they owned the house, got cited for it, and ignored it. HOAs are not merciful when dealing with these things, and when they fine you it can be very expensive ($1000 in my neighborhood for not taking care of something quickly), although it is worth calling them to try and get a delay put in place for the deck.
If it adds up to $5000, that is $5000 you are losing, because you have to fix those things now, and maybe you didn't budget for that at this time. The notice went out before the house was turned over to you. Their dishonesty or disorganization has caused this problem, assuming the USPS was doing its job. And the title company should have picked up on this. There may be recourse with them. Realtors check as a courtesy, but also, they don't want to learn these things at closing, because it can turn into a big mess with angry buyers and sellers. It is certainly on my closing checklist!
Thank you for sticking up for me. Everyone is getting really hostile. I gave a few examples not knowing everyone would take them as literal word. In total there’s 10-12 violations and some are not just pains of being a homeowner and some will require a professional to do. I’ve talked about a few in other comments. It’s crazy how off the rails this thread got and a simple question about if I had any recourse aside from suing. I’ve reached out to the agents and title to see what everyone was aware of.
I don’t think they’re being hostile so much as talking about the hardships of dealing with an HOA. They don’t HAVE to be fair and often times are not. They certainly don’t care about welcoming new neighbors and they’ll get their money from whoever they can get it from, regardless of who SHOULD owe the money. Big HOA’s are always in court too BTW. Either being sued or suing somebody. I used to do tax returns for HOA’s. Truly a mess.
You should have gotten an "HOA Estoppel" during closing. The purpose of an HOA estoppel is to protect the buyer and seller in a real estate transaction. The document ensures that the buyer knows the precise amount they will need to pay in HOA fees and any other outstanding debts before closing on the property. It also protects the seller from being held responsible for any outstanding fees or fines after they have sold the property
True, but this isn't a debt as occurs when the sellers haven't paid their HOA fees. This was a notice of some violations that need to be fixed. Which amount to about $5000 of work, that the sellers should have had done, or should have at least credited to the buyers at closing. If an estoppel letter also includes any notices of violation that have occurred, and a statement regarding whether those violations have been cured, then at least it would bring that to the attention of the buyers. Then, because it involves some work, the buyers would have to get estimates for that work before closing, if the sellers were refusing to fix the things to the HOA's satisfaction.
Only HOA home I ever owned was dissected by the underwriting weeks before closing. No chance this would have slipped. Any and all outstanding fines for the home or the HOA as a whole would have been elucidated by the lender.
Something is amiss. I’d pick apart your contract and schedule at least a consult with a legit RE attorney.
Yes, this is why I dislike it when Title Companies rush through the documents at closing. I always asked for all closing documents 24 hours ahead, to review, and you wouldn't believe how many mistakes I have found that would have hurt the buyers. Usually having to do with loan fees. I would get them removed and have them redo the HUD statement. When buyers are first seeing all this at the closing table, everyone wants to rush through and they tend to think everything is fine, and they don't want to be a PITA, reading every document, etc. So there is a good chance this violation notice that OP has just learned about was mentioned in there somewhere. But normally you have to sign and approve of any encumbrance on the property, and at that time the Title Agent explains what it is all about.
Also, so many closings are done online and from afar and nothing is explained to the buyers. And people don't read all the documents.
Title company rushing the signing is one thing. But no chance a qualified lender wouldn’t have uncovered this.
The fact this slipped is either fraud from the HOA or an incompetent underwriter.
HOA usually clears the home early in the process. Assumption would be no new work that would cause them to get out of compliance. Yet this suggests the home was not "clean" for transfer.
Maybe reply to the HOA you did not take ownership until X Date and those are from before that date. Then show when they signed everything was clean and knew ownership turnover date. See if you can make it a them problem not a you problem.
I would check with the title company? This should be the same just as if they miscalculated the taxes or something. Because I bet there is some document the seller signs at closing saying there are no new items due. If not maybe your title insurance covers it?
If it is small (under $5K) maybe a demand letter then small claims court?
I agree. I would start with the Title Company. They can review the disclosures and also what interaction they had with the HOA. They usually check with the HOA the day before closing to make sure new issues have not come up since the original disclosure. If there were new violations, I would think that is an encumbrance on the property, and that your title insurance should cover it, if they failed to check with the HOA right before closing. This is a pretty well known issue with handling the sale of a house with a HOA, or a condominium - the issue of having new violations or new assessments between the initial disclosure at the time of contract and the closing date.
It's also something a good buyer's agent would want to do the day before closing.
The title company and a buyer's agent should be checking with the HOA the day before closing to determine if any new violations or new assessments have occurred since the first disclosure. This is a common and very well known issue in house or condominium sales. Should be part of the checklist of things to do right before closing.
If you have PROOF the seller knew you can go to small claims court. But if the HOA sent a letter that they probably didn’t open, or they weren’t living in the house, going to be hard to prove they actually did know.
I hear what you’re saying and that may be the result. But I do know you’re wrong on your reasoning. Whether they opened the mail and were aware of the violations or not wouldn’t be an issue. Don’t need to prove anything beyond the letter was sent prior to our ownership. Sellers duty to disclose would have arisen at that time.
That wasn’t the answer to my question. I was just pointing out there definitely was a duty of disclosure and there always will be up thru closing. My question was, what are my options knowing they failed to disclose.
No, that’s the definition for paying not the definition for passing information on you
I’ve actually been to courts several times and listen to what happened when my clients ended up with this particular issue
The bar is higher in one of these situations you have to prove it’s malicious, and you have to prove they’re hiding it from you not just that they might have been able to know
But if they sent it and you want to go to court for a small claims go for it if you’re confident you’ll find out one way or another hopefully we’re wrong !
Actually I think you’re probably wrong on your reasoning, but what do I know. I’m just a lawyer who would probably tell you to just fix the minor issues instead of paying me
So you, a lawyer, are telling me that you can avoid legal responsibility by simply not opening mail? That was the point of my response—I don’t think that is the case. My original post acknowledged it’s probably not worth it to sue.
That’s not what your response said. You told the first person - who I agree with - that they were “wrong on their reasoning” and that the facts of the case “wouldn’t be an issue.” And that is wrong.
Their reasoning (that if the HOA mailed a letter and they just didn’t open it they wouldn’t be responsible) was 100% wrong. What part of that do you disagree with?
I get it. You’re smarter than everyone. Good luck moving forward. I hope you pay an attorney ten grand to get an award for 3 that you’ll never collect.
I’m just trying to get you to tell me what the actual legal liability and standard is. Since you said you’re a lawyer. What’s the disclosure obligation? Actual knowledge or are there certain circumstances where imputed knowledge also applies?
"A seller must disclose to a buyer all *known* material defects about property being sold that are not readily observable."
If you were able to observe the fence, which you stated you were in another comment, then they didn't have to disclose it in the first place. But aside from that, if violations were not known, they don't have to disclose.
There are literally no circumstances in which home sellers (in the U.S. at least) are required to disclose things they didn't know. I really don't even know how it makes sense in your mind that someone could be required to do that since it is impossible.
Yes yes you can. It’s called Constructive knowledge.
In the context of a [residential] real estate transaction, a seller is under a duty to disclose material facts that would not be discoverable by the exercise of ordinary care and diligence by the purchaser, or that a reasonable investigation and inquiry would not uncover.
sellers did have an obligation to update their disclosure due to being sent a (different) violation notice. The sellers agent hounded us for days to sign off on it. So it clearly was a big deal for that. So that’s what I’m basing my thinking on. That you can’t just not open mail and claim you weren’t aware of something that makes your disclosure untruthful through the date of closing.
I’ll also just add they did disclose one letter from the HOA and we were required to sign additional disclosures because of it a few days before closing. So are you saying the same wouldnt apply here? They could have just thrown all the HOA letters away and it would have been out of sight out of mind?
Unless the HOA sent these notices via certified mail, yes that's exactly what is being said because there's no proof otherwise beyond the HOA's say-so which is hearsay.
You can’t purposefully evade knowledge of something to get out of disclosing it. Constructive knowledge can apply. I’m very confused why everyone is so confident in wrong. A quick google search…
...you watch too much TV - you're not going to "sue" to get a few hundred dollars back - no attorney is going to take the case and the sellers know you have no teeth - get over yourself and suck it up, Karen...
You probably got a copy of the CC&Rs as part of the buying process. If you did you would be well aware of the rules yourself and could see that the fence wasn't properly painted or the lawn maintained per HOA rules. You agreed to buy the house with knowledge of the house's state and the rules for living in that neighborhood, even if you didn't put 2 and 2 together.
Real talk though, you bought a house the worst part is over spend this Saturday fixing it and just be done with one of the most stressful things you can do in life.
Bro just fix it and move on. You’re supposed to get a limited window of time to review the HOA docs and the HOA does an inspection of the house before you move in. They noted issues and technically that was supposed to be resolved before closing the deal (I think? That’s how it was for us)
Those issues are so small you can just fix them and move on with your life. Why sue over grass and paint?
I have done a lot construction in my day. If it was so bad to necessitate being entirely redone how would you miss that walking through or during inspection?
We didn’t miss it. We just did not know 1. It was a violation and could rack up fines and 2. Was in such disrepair would need to be remedied immediately. That’s are legitimate issues anyone would be entitled to be upset over.
If you got a copy of the HOA rules then yes you did know it was a violation. It have hadn’t been issued yet.
And yes, not opening mail does get you out of disclosures.
That's literally what an inspection period is for, if YOU aren't qualified to see something is "in such disrepair" then you hire an inspector to tell you these things.
You want a free paint job you bring that up prior to purchase, did my inspection I want the fence repaired and repainted.
Well, you bought into HOA. When they demand payment, make sure that you get a receipt and thank them for their service. It's pretty much like dealing with cops. Or, fight with them and keep the notices coming.
>I don’t think the violations are that extensive (bare spots on lawn, fence painting, etc.) so suing is not going to be worth the time.
Then drop it and move on with your life. Take care of these minor issues and enjoy your new home.
> is really the only recourse to sue?
Since you’ve already closed and all your leverage is now gone, generally speaking yes, a suit is the recourse for when two parties disagree on something that’s a civil matter such as a dispute that you’re noting; I’d be curious to know what you imagine an alternate mechanism of recourse would be?
Your immediate path forward is to fix the issue; get some seed and some paint, or pay a landscaper to do it; don’t fluff about and allow fines from the HOA to start otherwise you’ll be facing another legal battle to get rid of those (that you’ll likely lose.)
After that, your recourse is to seek compensation.
You can:
1. Ask the seller to pay for the work (and any fines accumulated.)
2. If they say no, you can sue the seller.
As the damages are in the hundreds of dollars to fix bare spots and paint a fence (maybe low thousands if it’s a gargantuan quantity of fencing…), your recourse is small claims court. ymmv on whether it’s worth the time and if you have a case (doesn’t look like it to me …). In some instances a seller facing service may fold or at least compromise and settle to avoid going to court. In other instances you may aggravate them, and they’ll literally see you in court.
Thank you for actually answering my question. I think a lot of people fixated on the examples I gave (which are really me minimizing the issues but they aren’t serious). There’s 10-12 violations in total but yes only a few thousand $$. And why I suspected it wasn’t worth it to actually sue. But if that’s my only recourse then that’s the answer. We’ll see how much it costs to tackle the list and then decide if we want to at least get an attorney to draft a letter trying to get some compensation from the sellers.
A couple thousand dollars is small claims territory. You don’t need to hire a lawyer. And you have proof. It doesn’t cost very much to go that route. So even if you lose, you are out a day of your time and a filing fee of likely less than $100.
This is the spot on answer. Sorry, OP. HOAs do a horrible job ensuring timely and documented service on homeowners.
It may be hard to get a Court to rely on poor HOA records as the basis that Seller knew about the defects and sold you the house anyway.
As this commenter correctly says, a seller facing service of process may realize the seriousness of it all and want to negotiate things out or find some kind of middle ground.
In total probably around $5k. That’s why I’m asking what options outside of actually suing. But beside that, we are frustrated because we were actively trying to back out of the deal but our agent said we’d lose out on our earnest money since inspections had passed. Had they disclosed these violations we would have been able to reopen the negotiations.
I’d advise a consultation with a real estate attorney over undisclosed violations that were known by the selling party. Don’t use an attorney your agent recommends just to ensure impartiality. This could go to court or not but it’s worth $100-$150 consults fee to find out.
Your agent just wants a commission. Ask an attorney, one you retain yourself and not recommended by your agent, about your options - honestly buying into an HOA that sends 10+ violations after signing off that the home was free and clear sounds like a nightmare, I wouldn't want to move into that situation.
Yeah the odd part is we can’t figure out how the second review got instigated after the initial review was done. The sellers did replace the roof so maybe it was part of that approval process?
Your options outside of suing is to ask the seller through their realtor. It may not work but is no cost to ask. When I bought my house two years ago the day of closing the well failed and then I realize she talked about well issues in a letter that was sent to me but not read before closing. I told my realtor about it who spoke to the listing agent and the seller repaid me the entire $3,500 to repair it. Maybe that’s not typical but it’s worth a shot. Maybe they can reach you half way.
Usually the HOA has to send a sale package which shows all violations are clear. Looks like these slipped through the cracks in the final days. You may be left holding the bag...
Many times funds are held back by Escrow to satisfy latent payments that arise post sale. I would have your agent reach out to Escrow and see if any funds were held back for this.
I'd put some seed on the bare spots and patch up the fence. Little things like that aren't worth the stress and confrontations. If they had said your whole roof had to be replaced because the shingles weren't the right type, that would be different. These seem minor.
The HOA should have provided a letter or form stating the owner/property was clear of violations and fines. Or disclosing the violations or fines. They failed to properly disclose, you are free and clear.
Title company. I reached out to them to see what involvement they had in clearing violations prior to closing. There were some we knew of prior but now there’s a few more.
Should be easy to correct,
it would be interesting to see if the HOA questionnaire Includes an area to disclose current violations or if they have had the Seller had to sign a statement that they were not aware of any violations or the Seller is responsible for any outstanding violations prior to the closing.
Please update us when you have more information
Best of luck
If the title company got a letter from the hoa saying all clear then your title insurance should protect you. I would look at the documents you got at closing and request copies from title and your lender of everything they got from the hoa. Odds are title screwed up
Yeah and I’m not sure what even protection from title would offer here. Like wouldn’t we have to wait for liens to be placed (which we obviously won’t do) to even get them involved?
"I don’t think the violations are that extensive (bare spots on lawn, fence painting, etc) so suing is not going to be worth the time."
Ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner! OP, the first step is to find out WHAT the violations are for. You might be making a mountain out of a small mole hill.
We know what they are for and yes in total it’s not betting the house level violations. It’s just enough though to be frustrating and since the HOA wants these items repaired now we’ll have to move quickly.
Not if you have a rational HOA board who cuts you some slack because you just bought the house. Reach out and let them know the circumstances and ask them to work with you. They might come back and ask you for a schedule to make them right ... putting control in your hands.
So what is it OP. Below you say you’re actively trying to get out of the deal and want to use this to negotiate. You also say you just closed and now have to deal with it. You sound like a “lovely” person to have to deal with. Maybe HOA figured that out already and acted fast. :-)
Maybe ask them to "restart" the clock on the violations and give you the grace, as a new homeowner, to address the violations over day 8-12 weeks (depending on cost/level of work needed)
I’ve answered this in other responses but essentially it was cleared prior to closing. Then got reopened and seller didn’t notify us but seller was sent a letter 3 weeks before closing.
I wasn't referring to the seller . If I ever buy a property with an HOA I will ask the hoa if the property has any issues.
That would be what I learned from your situation .
Prove that the seller knew about the violations prior to closing. It seems like you _assume_ they did.
Our HOA supposedly sends things out in a ‘timely’ manner, however on all occasions I received the first letter _after_ the second arrived weeks later. YMMV.
Based on your other responses (fines not assessed yet) I'd say you get the liabilities of the property. Just fix the issues and be done with it. Ask the HOA for more time to remedy since (a) you didn't know about it, and (b) you just moved in so you're stretched thin as it is. Ultimately, the HOA just wants things like that fixed.
I'm a broker in CA, Here I would recommend taking the sellers to small claims court (up to $12k) once the HOA fines you. No need for attorney. The reason would be "fraud", not disclosing the HOA notice which is mandatory.
It depends on your state law whether the owner has to notify you of violations. In some states (probably most), the owner only has to advise that there is an HOA and then the buyer has to request a resale certificate/estoppel from the HOA, which would inform you of any current violations or money owed. That is usually handled by the title company.
If the resale certificate/estoppel is not included in your closing papers, your title company may have dropped the ball. If it is included and the HOA checked the box for no violations, that may be a defense against a fine for the violations prior to closing.
If there are ongoing violations you are still responsible for them from the date of the sale. You are bound by the Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) even if you did not get notice.
Speaking from experience- I’ve gotten notice letters from my HOA WEEKS after it was identified. Here’s a ridiculous example (with made up but close to timeline dates(:
Ice storm on Jan 10
Photos of downed trees taken Jan 11
Letter dated Jan 18
Letter mailed Jan 31
Letter received Feb 12
Date to fix issue by Feb 2
Date city came to pick up downed trees Jan 20
None of this came with a fine. It was just a letter. Now, clearly this isn’t a problem with a permanent structure. Did you check when the letter was mailed and when photos were taken? Is this their first notice? You can see how they really may not have had any idea. You can also see how the HOA property management company could be way behind and may not have had any of it recorded.
Who is at fault is likely going to require court depending on the answers above. If this truly slipped through the cracks, how much money is the stress of court worth it to you?
If they got a clean title before selling, it’s going to be hard to prove they had any knowledge of the letter. If it wasn’t sent certified mail or return receipt, how could you prove they got it?
Do you know if the HOA is a PITA to deal with? Have you talked to your new neighbors? Was their something personal going on between the HOA and the former owner? If the HOA is a PITA then you better suck it up, hurry up and fix it. I would take pictures of the violations with estimates from contractors/handymen and send an email to your realtor to forward it to the seller and let them know you're going to go to small claims to recoup the cost. More than likely you're SOl but maybe you'll get lucky and the seller will offer to pay for at least part of it. If they sent it to 2 weeks before the closing there's a decent chance the seller never saw the violations.
3 options really:
Ask the old owner to pay... They might say no.
Pay it.
Talk to the board and explain the situation. They'll hopefully reverse the fines. Our board would.
The small claims court advice.... Seems unlikely to be worth your time as the fines are usually not that big. But that's your call. It'd unlikely be worth my time... Maybe due to the fence painting it might be? As this violation happened before you owned the house, and likely you'd make the seller so it, if you knew? All really depends on if the $$$ is worth your time.
If it was me. I'd have my agent contact the other, hopefully they'd volunteer to pay it. Also I'd contact the board anyway and just let them know. If you contact them with a plan, and let them know you just moved in, so have a lot of other house work to do, but have a plan for addressing the fence, etc. Our board would totally be ok with that.
Depends how n a lot of factors. One thing is Did the sellers submit a copy of the Covenants, Codes, and Restrictions along with the other Disclosures? If they did not, then you have something to stand on. If they did, then you ain’t got much because your agent AND YOU have a duty to discover by reading the CCRs. Now if your state’s Residential Property Owners’ and Association Disclosure has a section outlining the items/services/restrictions covered by HOA fees, and if any of the HOA violations are in the RPOAD or could reasonably be indicated in that section, then you might have a case of willful omission. Best of fortune
They are awfully popular in many parts of the US. While HOAs can be a pain, a fair number work hard to ensure conformity across housing stock which gives homeowners valuation buoyancy in unsteady markets.
Screw HOAs. If these busybodies want their pristine little utopias, they can take the dues they so aggressively collect and hire people to correct these "blights". This is why I refuse to live in an area with an HOA. I get the idea behind them-and in certain cases they can be functional governing bodies (helpful even). But more often than not they turn into people on power trips running their own little fiefdoms. (Me? Bitter about the subject? Naaahhh...)
Well you broke rule number one…. Never buy in an HOA so I guess your stuck fixing whatever the Karen that runs the HOA wants to bitch about this week until you give up an sell
Peculiar. HOAs usually have to release the house prior to sale, and they force the seller to satisfy any unpaid invoices, fines or violations prior to the transfer.
Yes these were not assessed (and haven’t yet). This was a notice of violations that was received after we had cleared inspections.
Ask the HOA to clear the violations as it wasn’t your violation nor your fee.
They said fees haven't been assessed. And they are in fact OP's violations now that they own the house. HOA isn't going to decide they don't need to fix their lawn and paint just because they are new owners.
Sorry, disagree. OP was not the owner when the violations occurred. HOA violations aren’t against properties, they are against people. Specifically owners or tenants. Source: I am on an HOA board.
If they were one time violations, then sure. But it sounds like these are issues that continue to be in violation. This makes them the OPs issue.
An on going violation of HOA rules would need to be brought up to standard. It can't just be ignored forever. The HOA isn't going to fine them unless they ignore the issue though. By your logic I could paint the exterior of my house pokka dot pink and white, sell it quickly, and the new owners never have to fix it?
Former board member here and I disagree, respectfully. Here they would be violations to our CC & R's & Bylaws that we as home owners agree to uphold upon purcashe.. In our community, the violation notices are sent monthly. As a board we direct the mgmt company to send a notice or hold, so in this case it would not have gone out. Rather the ARC committee, that I was chair of, would allow the new home owner a chance to move in and then visit them. Depending upon the egregiousness of the violation they would be advised that they are inspected monthly for conformity and then we would allow them time. We stay on top of things, so at least here it would be easy to give them 60 days because there is not much that the old owner would not have taken care of. A lawn's bare spots might be an over look because it would depend upon the time of year as a growing season. We always allow new owners grace as it is not a nice welcome, but it at the direction of the board members to the mgmt company to send them out. We host a welcome to the community gathering too.
Well you would be wrong. The home is in violation not the owner. If owner sells and home still has violations you’re not able to go after the seller. The buyer is now the member and responsible to cure any violations Source: I own a HOA management company
Talk about the most useless occupation in the history of work.
BMW turn signal installer checking in.
You wouldn't feel that way if you lived in a a self-managed HOA that was mismanaged.
Username checks out.
It must bring back memories loading your wheelchair every morning.
I guess each HOA works differently. In our HOA it’s very clear: if you incur violations and move out, you still owe the HOA, not the new owner. We have taken people to court over trying it.
You're talking about fines that were assessed to the prior owner before they sold. I don't know why you are ignoring the fact that fines haven't yet been assessed in this case. Everyone else here is talking about the fact that the paint looks shitty now and the new owner is going to have to deal with that if they don't want to incur future fines. I guarantee you have never gotten a court judgement requiring that a former owner come back and paint a house to meet HOA standards after selling.
They weren’t fined tho. They were told to fix things. So the house itself is still in violation. OP doesn’t owe money TO the HOA. They’d owe money to the companies who fix the violations.
The violations are ONGOING OP does not get a lifetime pass to never paint his fence Your appeal to authority has no value
You might want to study up on that. Violations are against the property and must be cured before sale or any other ownership change. Source: I am also an HOA board member.
The violations appear to be ongoing, they just existed before close. Yes, OP has to still repair the lawn or paint the house or bring in the trash cans. The OP might win enough to cover costs in a small claims case assuming they can prove the seller knew. They can also report the selling agent to the board of realtors for not disclosing. They could probably sue them all but damages would be minuscule and small claims would be a better venue.
The lawn and fence didn't leave with the previous owners.... The issues are still currently present in the property and the current obwrs have to deal with them. Their recourse would be to go after the sellers. That said, for some paint and a few pieces of sod, it may not be worth it.
“On an HOA board” That does not mean shit. They are full of idiots.
HAHAHA brilliant
They can ask him to fix things, they can't fine him for things that were present on day 1. Reasonable people don't do that to strangers just bevshse they can.
CC&Rs are attached to the property so violations are against the property. The current owner is responsible for violations. Tenants are only bound by their lease. An HOA cannot fine a tenant but the owner can pass the fines onto the tenant if it says so in the lease. Source: Former Certified Manager of Community Associations and current board member.
They said the HOA signed off on the house sale. The infractions occurred between then and when the owners left. This is not the new homeowners liability.
How do you imagine this playing out? OP fixes nothing because he claims it isn't his liability, and the HOA just...agrees to let his paint and lawn stay ugly forever? Advice like yours is going to get people slapped with a lien.
You don’t know the problem still exists or that they didn’t already fix it. You are overreacting.
This whole post is filled with comments from OP making it very obvious that the problems still exist. The whole point of this post in the first place is that he doesn't want want to be responsible for fixing them. Read before you try to sound like an authority on a topic.
Then the HOA needs to fine them now as owners. They okayed the sale of the house. That was their error
Incorrect. Sorry. It might not seem fair but as long as the home is in violation, the current owners are responsible. Can they go to small claims and force the previous owner to reimburse? Maybe. Is it worth the hassle? Probably not.
What exactly are you expecting to happen prior owners to pay to put down grass and paint the fence? You obviously knew the state they were in when you closed. These aren’t things that an inspection would find as they are purely aesthetic. This sounds like a weekend of elbow grease. Or a few hundred bucks at most. It sounds like you won’t even be fined if you take care of it quickly.
I think everyone is taking my examples as literal. That’s not the case and I’ve talked about a few additional ones in other comments. It’s more than just a weekend and minor inconvenience. But in any event my point of the post was just to see if there was any recourse. I got the answers from other helpful posters.
Well you’re asking what your recourse is and that relies heavily on what the actual things are that weren’t disclosed as to whether or not there was an obligation to disclose. The two examples you gave are easily observable and not material defects so they don’t need to be disclosed. There may have been an obligation to disclose the violations if they knew about them but they may not have and you’ll have a hard time proving it. If there’s something more substantial then it may be worth discussing but you’d have to say what that is.
Is there an appeal process? Do the HOA bylaws require any notice before fines? Maybe you can make the case that notice wasn't given because you weren't the owner.
It's not a good sign of things to come for them to be this committed to going after the previous owner, since that's really what's happening here. Reasonable people would simply say "hey you're the new owner, but the old owner was a jerk. If you don't mind taking care of x, y, Z, we'd really appreciate it". Instead, they're trying to make sure you know what's up and how it's going to be as a new resident. I'm sorry, man. These HOA's are terrible.
>HOAs usually have to release the house prior to sale That's not true in all states. I know it's not true in California. HOA violations stay with the property on a change of ownership. The purpose of violations is to maintain the neighborhood, not to punish the owner. If the violation just went away on sale then they would lose that purpose. If violations exist when the house is up for sale, it's up to the buyer and seller to decide what to do about them, just like any other maintenance issue. Seller is legally required to disclose if they are aware of the violations, but it's always wise for the buyer to get a report from the HOA before closing. OP should ask their agent what to do. They should know this stuff.
I second this. For closing, they have to sign off that there are no pending issues. I would contact your title company and discuss it with them.
What state is OP in?
Did you not get an estoppel at closing? Does your contract require them to disclose being in good standing? If not, you bought the problem.
I don’t exactly understand what you’re saying but wouldn’t their duty to disclose cover this? Wouldn’t that be them violating their side of the agreement? We did clear inspections including HOA but this was not disclosed (and apparently violations were noted after we cleared HOA).
Entirely depends on your state disclosure laws and your contract. Florida doesn’t require HOA violations in disclosure for example but most mortgage companies won’t let you close without an estoppel saying no known / open violations.
How is that even possible? Because a violation pre closing would probably also be a material issue impacting the ability to maintain the home. I assume a purchase agreement would require sellers to maintain the home in a like state. So if a new violation pops up, wouldn’t that also fall under that?
No, see the problem is that you are attempting to use logic. HOAs don’t follow that.
I'm with ya but HOA violations are more often bitter people freaking over stupid than they are material. if the fine is less than mid thousands, no lawyer will take this on, waste of their time and yours if there is no fine which even if there is one the HOA board will likely give you a one time pass, you don't have any problems
The title company got any estoppel, it probably was received a few weeks before closing. After the estoppel was issued, the violations were issued. This does happen sometimes. Contact the title company and they should take care of it for you.
You shouldn't have assumed anything about your contract if you didn't read it.
Normally before closing, HOAs are contacted to divvy out who costs belong to whom as part of closing costs. If there are fines belonging to Seller, that's on their part half of the closing sheet so it's deducted from their proceeds. You, as a new buyer, only get charged for things you are responsible for (i.e., maintenance, move-in fees, any admin fees, etc.). Did that not that happen with your closing?
They, the sellers, should disclose any changes with the property since the original disclosures. But often sellers do not, or the letter fell through the cracks while they were moving, who knows. To prevent this, agents representing the buyer and the Title Company are supposed to check with HOA the day before closing. It is possible that this is a title issue, in that there was an encumbrance on the property at the time of closing. Title companies are supposed to find this out before closing and either get it taken care of by the sellers, or if that is not possible, bring it to your attention at the closing table, in writing. This is why we have Title companies, and pay them fees - to do this. If the violation is very minor, the buyer may choose to take care of it in order to carry on and not delay closing (such as pulling up some dried up flowers in a small flower bed, something like that). When the violations are greater, such as in your case, the buyer can certainly refuse to close until the seller either takes care of the violation, or compensates you at closing for the work needed to be in compliance. You are doing nothing wrong here by asking this. You are not a "Karen". Maybe you work 60 hours a week, or maybe you are physically unable to take care of these things, or maybe you have better things to do and this should have been taken care of or detected by the title company. These commentors are being hostile and ridiculous, unless it is a very small, inexpensive defect that is easy to fix, such as a 3 foot tree branch fell on the grass in a storm and looks unsightly - sure, we would normally just take care of that ourselves. Take 5 minutes to haul it to the trash can. A fair deal is expected in Real Estate. The sellers were remiss in taking care of some things while they owned the house, got cited for it, and ignored it. HOAs are not merciful when dealing with these things, and when they fine you it can be very expensive ($1000 in my neighborhood for not taking care of something quickly), although it is worth calling them to try and get a delay put in place for the deck. If it adds up to $5000, that is $5000 you are losing, because you have to fix those things now, and maybe you didn't budget for that at this time. The notice went out before the house was turned over to you. Their dishonesty or disorganization has caused this problem, assuming the USPS was doing its job. And the title company should have picked up on this. There may be recourse with them. Realtors check as a courtesy, but also, they don't want to learn these things at closing, because it can turn into a big mess with angry buyers and sellers. It is certainly on my closing checklist!
Thank you for sticking up for me. Everyone is getting really hostile. I gave a few examples not knowing everyone would take them as literal word. In total there’s 10-12 violations and some are not just pains of being a homeowner and some will require a professional to do. I’ve talked about a few in other comments. It’s crazy how off the rails this thread got and a simple question about if I had any recourse aside from suing. I’ve reached out to the agents and title to see what everyone was aware of.
I don’t think they’re being hostile so much as talking about the hardships of dealing with an HOA. They don’t HAVE to be fair and often times are not. They certainly don’t care about welcoming new neighbors and they’ll get their money from whoever they can get it from, regardless of who SHOULD owe the money. Big HOA’s are always in court too BTW. Either being sued or suing somebody. I used to do tax returns for HOA’s. Truly a mess.
You should have gotten an "HOA Estoppel" during closing. The purpose of an HOA estoppel is to protect the buyer and seller in a real estate transaction. The document ensures that the buyer knows the precise amount they will need to pay in HOA fees and any other outstanding debts before closing on the property. It also protects the seller from being held responsible for any outstanding fees or fines after they have sold the property
True, but this isn't a debt as occurs when the sellers haven't paid their HOA fees. This was a notice of some violations that need to be fixed. Which amount to about $5000 of work, that the sellers should have had done, or should have at least credited to the buyers at closing. If an estoppel letter also includes any notices of violation that have occurred, and a statement regarding whether those violations have been cured, then at least it would bring that to the attention of the buyers. Then, because it involves some work, the buyers would have to get estimates for that work before closing, if the sellers were refusing to fix the things to the HOA's satisfaction.
Only HOA home I ever owned was dissected by the underwriting weeks before closing. No chance this would have slipped. Any and all outstanding fines for the home or the HOA as a whole would have been elucidated by the lender. Something is amiss. I’d pick apart your contract and schedule at least a consult with a legit RE attorney.
Yes, this is why I dislike it when Title Companies rush through the documents at closing. I always asked for all closing documents 24 hours ahead, to review, and you wouldn't believe how many mistakes I have found that would have hurt the buyers. Usually having to do with loan fees. I would get them removed and have them redo the HUD statement. When buyers are first seeing all this at the closing table, everyone wants to rush through and they tend to think everything is fine, and they don't want to be a PITA, reading every document, etc. So there is a good chance this violation notice that OP has just learned about was mentioned in there somewhere. But normally you have to sign and approve of any encumbrance on the property, and at that time the Title Agent explains what it is all about. Also, so many closings are done online and from afar and nothing is explained to the buyers. And people don't read all the documents.
Title company rushing the signing is one thing. But no chance a qualified lender wouldn’t have uncovered this. The fact this slipped is either fraud from the HOA or an incompetent underwriter.
HOA usually clears the home early in the process. Assumption would be no new work that would cause them to get out of compliance. Yet this suggests the home was not "clean" for transfer. Maybe reply to the HOA you did not take ownership until X Date and those are from before that date. Then show when they signed everything was clean and knew ownership turnover date. See if you can make it a them problem not a you problem. I would check with the title company? This should be the same just as if they miscalculated the taxes or something. Because I bet there is some document the seller signs at closing saying there are no new items due. If not maybe your title insurance covers it? If it is small (under $5K) maybe a demand letter then small claims court?
I agree. I would start with the Title Company. They can review the disclosures and also what interaction they had with the HOA. They usually check with the HOA the day before closing to make sure new issues have not come up since the original disclosure. If there were new violations, I would think that is an encumbrance on the property, and that your title insurance should cover it, if they failed to check with the HOA right before closing. This is a pretty well known issue with handling the sale of a house with a HOA, or a condominium - the issue of having new violations or new assessments between the initial disclosure at the time of contract and the closing date. It's also something a good buyer's agent would want to do the day before closing.
Right the HOA sent an updated letter AFTER we had already gotten thru inspections. So the seller just failed to disclose.
What is the violation?
The title company and a buyer's agent should be checking with the HOA the day before closing to determine if any new violations or new assessments have occurred since the first disclosure. This is a common and very well known issue in house or condominium sales. Should be part of the checklist of things to do right before closing.
If you have PROOF the seller knew you can go to small claims court. But if the HOA sent a letter that they probably didn’t open, or they weren’t living in the house, going to be hard to prove they actually did know.
I hear what you’re saying and that may be the result. But I do know you’re wrong on your reasoning. Whether they opened the mail and were aware of the violations or not wouldn’t be an issue. Don’t need to prove anything beyond the letter was sent prior to our ownership. Sellers duty to disclose would have arisen at that time.
Then why did you come here if you know for sure your answer?
That wasn’t the answer to my question. I was just pointing out there definitely was a duty of disclosure and there always will be up thru closing. My question was, what are my options knowing they failed to disclose.
You only need to disclose something you are AWARE of.
Paint the fence and throw some seed on the bare spots, those are your options
No, that’s the definition for paying not the definition for passing information on you I’ve actually been to courts several times and listen to what happened when my clients ended up with this particular issue The bar is higher in one of these situations you have to prove it’s malicious, and you have to prove they’re hiding it from you not just that they might have been able to know But if they sent it and you want to go to court for a small claims go for it if you’re confident you’ll find out one way or another hopefully we’re wrong !
Actually I think you’re probably wrong on your reasoning, but what do I know. I’m just a lawyer who would probably tell you to just fix the minor issues instead of paying me
So you, a lawyer, are telling me that you can avoid legal responsibility by simply not opening mail? That was the point of my response—I don’t think that is the case. My original post acknowledged it’s probably not worth it to sue.
That’s not what your response said. You told the first person - who I agree with - that they were “wrong on their reasoning” and that the facts of the case “wouldn’t be an issue.” And that is wrong.
Their reasoning (that if the HOA mailed a letter and they just didn’t open it they wouldn’t be responsible) was 100% wrong. What part of that do you disagree with?
I get it. You’re smarter than everyone. Good luck moving forward. I hope you pay an attorney ten grand to get an award for 3 that you’ll never collect.
I’m just trying to get you to tell me what the actual legal liability and standard is. Since you said you’re a lawyer. What’s the disclosure obligation? Actual knowledge or are there certain circumstances where imputed knowledge also applies?
"A seller must disclose to a buyer all *known* material defects about property being sold that are not readily observable." If you were able to observe the fence, which you stated you were in another comment, then they didn't have to disclose it in the first place. But aside from that, if violations were not known, they don't have to disclose.
There are literally no circumstances in which home sellers (in the U.S. at least) are required to disclose things they didn't know. I really don't even know how it makes sense in your mind that someone could be required to do that since it is impossible.
Yes yes you can. It’s called Constructive knowledge. In the context of a [residential] real estate transaction, a seller is under a duty to disclose material facts that would not be discoverable by the exercise of ordinary care and diligence by the purchaser, or that a reasonable investigation and inquiry would not uncover.
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sellers did have an obligation to update their disclosure due to being sent a (different) violation notice. The sellers agent hounded us for days to sign off on it. So it clearly was a big deal for that. So that’s what I’m basing my thinking on. That you can’t just not open mail and claim you weren’t aware of something that makes your disclosure untruthful through the date of closing.
I mean, they *can* claim that. Cause that's the truth. They didn't know. It's not untruthful because they didn't know lol
I’ll guess I’ll just use that logic next time I’m selling and just say I’m not obligated to pay the share of taxes because I didn’t open the tax bill.
Let’s say hypothetically the letter was lost by the carrier and never delivered. Now what?
I’ll also just add they did disclose one letter from the HOA and we were required to sign additional disclosures because of it a few days before closing. So are you saying the same wouldnt apply here? They could have just thrown all the HOA letters away and it would have been out of sight out of mind?
Unless the HOA sent these notices via certified mail, yes that's exactly what is being said because there's no proof otherwise beyond the HOA's say-so which is hearsay.
You are so woefully wrong, you can’t disclose what you don’t know, and are not obligated to.
You can’t purposefully evade knowledge of something to get out of disclosing it. Constructive knowledge can apply. I’m very confused why everyone is so confident in wrong. A quick google search…
Who said they were purposefully evading anything though....?
If this is all just a quick google search why didn’t you just google it from the start?
...you watch too much TV - you're not going to "sue" to get a few hundred dollars back - no attorney is going to take the case and the sellers know you have no teeth - get over yourself and suck it up, Karen...
How is someone screwing someone else over a “Karen”?
Haha….Karen.
You probably got a copy of the CC&Rs as part of the buying process. If you did you would be well aware of the rules yourself and could see that the fence wasn't properly painted or the lawn maintained per HOA rules. You agreed to buy the house with knowledge of the house's state and the rules for living in that neighborhood, even if you didn't put 2 and 2 together. Real talk though, you bought a house the worst part is over spend this Saturday fixing it and just be done with one of the most stressful things you can do in life.
Since when??
Since when what?
That's not correct. Also, there should have been an HOA packet a week or so prior to closing that listed any outstanding violations.
You don't hsve a duty to disclose what you don't know
Just repair and move on, this is a nothing burger
Bro just fix it and move on. You’re supposed to get a limited window of time to review the HOA docs and the HOA does an inspection of the house before you move in. They noted issues and technically that was supposed to be resolved before closing the deal (I think? That’s how it was for us) Those issues are so small you can just fix them and move on with your life. Why sue over grass and paint?
It’s more, I was just using an example. Probably a few thousand of work but my point was not enough to engage an attorney.
I know inflation is a bitch right now but a can of paint and grass seed doesn’t cost that much.
You’ve clearly never painted a fence.
I have done a lot construction in my day. If it was so bad to necessitate being entirely redone how would you miss that walking through or during inspection?
We didn’t miss it. We just did not know 1. It was a violation and could rack up fines and 2. Was in such disrepair would need to be remedied immediately. That’s are legitimate issues anyone would be entitled to be upset over.
If you got a copy of the HOA rules then yes you did know it was a violation. It have hadn’t been issued yet. And yes, not opening mail does get you out of disclosures.
Haha….Karen
That's literally what an inspection period is for, if YOU aren't qualified to see something is "in such disrepair" then you hire an inspector to tell you these things. You want a free paint job you bring that up prior to purchase, did my inspection I want the fence repaired and repainted.
I've painted multiple fences on my property. It doesn't cost thousands. I costs like 65 bucks and a days labor to scrape and paint.
Likely wouldn't even need to scrape if the goal is just to get it looking acceptable enough to get the HOA off his back.
What do you need an attorney to do? What are you going to sue for?
Well, you bought into HOA. When they demand payment, make sure that you get a receipt and thank them for their service. It's pretty much like dealing with cops. Or, fight with them and keep the notices coming.
>I don’t think the violations are that extensive (bare spots on lawn, fence painting, etc.) so suing is not going to be worth the time. Then drop it and move on with your life. Take care of these minor issues and enjoy your new home.
> is really the only recourse to sue? Since you’ve already closed and all your leverage is now gone, generally speaking yes, a suit is the recourse for when two parties disagree on something that’s a civil matter such as a dispute that you’re noting; I’d be curious to know what you imagine an alternate mechanism of recourse would be? Your immediate path forward is to fix the issue; get some seed and some paint, or pay a landscaper to do it; don’t fluff about and allow fines from the HOA to start otherwise you’ll be facing another legal battle to get rid of those (that you’ll likely lose.) After that, your recourse is to seek compensation. You can: 1. Ask the seller to pay for the work (and any fines accumulated.) 2. If they say no, you can sue the seller. As the damages are in the hundreds of dollars to fix bare spots and paint a fence (maybe low thousands if it’s a gargantuan quantity of fencing…), your recourse is small claims court. ymmv on whether it’s worth the time and if you have a case (doesn’t look like it to me …). In some instances a seller facing service may fold or at least compromise and settle to avoid going to court. In other instances you may aggravate them, and they’ll literally see you in court.
Thank you for actually answering my question. I think a lot of people fixated on the examples I gave (which are really me minimizing the issues but they aren’t serious). There’s 10-12 violations in total but yes only a few thousand $$. And why I suspected it wasn’t worth it to actually sue. But if that’s my only recourse then that’s the answer. We’ll see how much it costs to tackle the list and then decide if we want to at least get an attorney to draft a letter trying to get some compensation from the sellers.
A couple thousand dollars is small claims territory. You don’t need to hire a lawyer. And you have proof. It doesn’t cost very much to go that route. So even if you lose, you are out a day of your time and a filing fee of likely less than $100.
I don’t even think you’re allowed to bring a lawyer to small claims court
May be state dependent. Where I live you 100% can.
This is the spot on answer. Sorry, OP. HOAs do a horrible job ensuring timely and documented service on homeowners. It may be hard to get a Court to rely on poor HOA records as the basis that Seller knew about the defects and sold you the house anyway. As this commenter correctly says, a seller facing service of process may realize the seriousness of it all and want to negotiate things out or find some kind of middle ground.
What was the violation?
There were 10/12
Any of them cost a large amount to remedy?
In total probably around $5k. That’s why I’m asking what options outside of actually suing. But beside that, we are frustrated because we were actively trying to back out of the deal but our agent said we’d lose out on our earnest money since inspections had passed. Had they disclosed these violations we would have been able to reopen the negotiations.
I’d advise a consultation with a real estate attorney over undisclosed violations that were known by the selling party. Don’t use an attorney your agent recommends just to ensure impartiality. This could go to court or not but it’s worth $100-$150 consults fee to find out.
Your agent just wants a commission. Ask an attorney, one you retain yourself and not recommended by your agent, about your options - honestly buying into an HOA that sends 10+ violations after signing off that the home was free and clear sounds like a nightmare, I wouldn't want to move into that situation.
Yeah the odd part is we can’t figure out how the second review got instigated after the initial review was done. The sellers did replace the roof so maybe it was part of that approval process?
Your options outside of suing is to ask the seller through their realtor. It may not work but is no cost to ask. When I bought my house two years ago the day of closing the well failed and then I realize she talked about well issues in a letter that was sent to me but not read before closing. I told my realtor about it who spoke to the listing agent and the seller repaid me the entire $3,500 to repair it. Maybe that’s not typical but it’s worth a shot. Maybe they can reach you half way.
Usually the HOA has to send a sale package which shows all violations are clear. Looks like these slipped through the cracks in the final days. You may be left holding the bag...
Am I crazy, or are these HOA violations not very important?
HOA violations can have warning 1, 2, or even 3 before fine .Contact hoa to see if there are any fine and want can be done to clear it.
Many times funds are held back by Escrow to satisfy latent payments that arise post sale. I would have your agent reach out to Escrow and see if any funds were held back for this.
I'd put some seed on the bare spots and patch up the fence. Little things like that aren't worth the stress and confrontations. If they had said your whole roof had to be replaced because the shingles weren't the right type, that would be different. These seem minor.
The HOA should have provided a letter or form stating the owner/property was clear of violations and fines. Or disclosing the violations or fines. They failed to properly disclose, you are free and clear.
HOA has to clear closing with title. Any violations prior to the date of closing belong to the seller and you should direct the HOA to them.
Title company/escrow company is supposed to check those.
Bare spots on the lawn are an HOA violation? How? It’s not like I chose for the grass there to die or let it die. It just died…
OP Did you have a Title Company or Attorney facilitate your closing?
Title company. I reached out to them to see what involvement they had in clearing violations prior to closing. There were some we knew of prior but now there’s a few more.
Should be easy to correct, it would be interesting to see if the HOA questionnaire Includes an area to disclose current violations or if they have had the Seller had to sign a statement that they were not aware of any violations or the Seller is responsible for any outstanding violations prior to the closing. Please update us when you have more information Best of luck
If the title company got a letter from the hoa saying all clear then your title insurance should protect you. I would look at the documents you got at closing and request copies from title and your lender of everything they got from the hoa. Odds are title screwed up
Yeah and I’m not sure what even protection from title would offer here. Like wouldn’t we have to wait for liens to be placed (which we obviously won’t do) to even get them involved?
"I don’t think the violations are that extensive (bare spots on lawn, fence painting, etc) so suing is not going to be worth the time." Ding, ding, ding ... we have a winner! OP, the first step is to find out WHAT the violations are for. You might be making a mountain out of a small mole hill.
We know what they are for and yes in total it’s not betting the house level violations. It’s just enough though to be frustrating and since the HOA wants these items repaired now we’ll have to move quickly.
Not if you have a rational HOA board who cuts you some slack because you just bought the house. Reach out and let them know the circumstances and ask them to work with you. They might come back and ask you for a schedule to make them right ... putting control in your hands.
Yeah. One of the items is removing a large failing deck. Which we thought we could wait a year or so. I’m doubting they’re going to allow us a year….
Can I ask - why would you move into an HOA and not expect to abide by HOA rules? Of course they want their houses uniform and in good condition.
So what is it OP. Below you say you’re actively trying to get out of the deal and want to use this to negotiate. You also say you just closed and now have to deal with it. You sound like a “lovely” person to have to deal with. Maybe HOA figured that out already and acted fast. :-)
That’s not what I said below. But good reading comprehension skills.
Maybe ask them to "restart" the clock on the violations and give you the grace, as a new homeowner, to address the violations over day 8-12 weeks (depending on cost/level of work needed)
How do you know the owners were aware in order to disclose?
What will it cost to fix the violations versus how much will it cost to sue ? You chalk it up to a learning opportunity and move forward
I mean there’s nothing to learn. We couldn’t have controlled for or anticipated the sellers not disclosing a violation.
I've never lived in an HOA but I would have asked the HOA about any violations prior to closing
I’ve answered this in other responses but essentially it was cleared prior to closing. Then got reopened and seller didn’t notify us but seller was sent a letter 3 weeks before closing.
I wasn't referring to the seller . If I ever buy a property with an HOA I will ask the hoa if the property has any issues. That would be what I learned from your situation .
Prove that the seller knew about the violations prior to closing. It seems like you _assume_ they did. Our HOA supposedly sends things out in a ‘timely’ manner, however on all occasions I received the first letter _after_ the second arrived weeks later. YMMV.
Based on your other responses (fines not assessed yet) I'd say you get the liabilities of the property. Just fix the issues and be done with it. Ask the HOA for more time to remedy since (a) you didn't know about it, and (b) you just moved in so you're stretched thin as it is. Ultimately, the HOA just wants things like that fixed.
I'm a broker in CA, Here I would recommend taking the sellers to small claims court (up to $12k) once the HOA fines you. No need for attorney. The reason would be "fraud", not disclosing the HOA notice which is mandatory.
You need to fix YOUR lawn and paint YOUR fence Not like they didn't need fixing and painting during your inspection
It depends on your state law whether the owner has to notify you of violations. In some states (probably most), the owner only has to advise that there is an HOA and then the buyer has to request a resale certificate/estoppel from the HOA, which would inform you of any current violations or money owed. That is usually handled by the title company. If the resale certificate/estoppel is not included in your closing papers, your title company may have dropped the ball. If it is included and the HOA checked the box for no violations, that may be a defense against a fine for the violations prior to closing. If there are ongoing violations you are still responsible for them from the date of the sale. You are bound by the Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (CC&Rs) even if you did not get notice.
Lawyer fees is what would concern me.
That is a bummer 😕 😞. I hope you get some back cash for the issues, but as the world is right now, I don't believe so. Human errors happen 😕.
Speaking from experience- I’ve gotten notice letters from my HOA WEEKS after it was identified. Here’s a ridiculous example (with made up but close to timeline dates(: Ice storm on Jan 10 Photos of downed trees taken Jan 11 Letter dated Jan 18 Letter mailed Jan 31 Letter received Feb 12 Date to fix issue by Feb 2 Date city came to pick up downed trees Jan 20 None of this came with a fine. It was just a letter. Now, clearly this isn’t a problem with a permanent structure. Did you check when the letter was mailed and when photos were taken? Is this their first notice? You can see how they really may not have had any idea. You can also see how the HOA property management company could be way behind and may not have had any of it recorded. Who is at fault is likely going to require court depending on the answers above. If this truly slipped through the cracks, how much money is the stress of court worth it to you?
If they got a clean title before selling, it’s going to be hard to prove they had any knowledge of the letter. If it wasn’t sent certified mail or return receipt, how could you prove they got it?
Do you know if the HOA is a PITA to deal with? Have you talked to your new neighbors? Was their something personal going on between the HOA and the former owner? If the HOA is a PITA then you better suck it up, hurry up and fix it. I would take pictures of the violations with estimates from contractors/handymen and send an email to your realtor to forward it to the seller and let them know you're going to go to small claims to recoup the cost. More than likely you're SOl but maybe you'll get lucky and the seller will offer to pay for at least part of it. If they sent it to 2 weeks before the closing there's a decent chance the seller never saw the violations.
You have to fix it, so just do it. you can ask the seller.to.pay and if not go.to small claims court
3 options really: Ask the old owner to pay... They might say no. Pay it. Talk to the board and explain the situation. They'll hopefully reverse the fines. Our board would. The small claims court advice.... Seems unlikely to be worth your time as the fines are usually not that big. But that's your call. It'd unlikely be worth my time... Maybe due to the fence painting it might be? As this violation happened before you owned the house, and likely you'd make the seller so it, if you knew? All really depends on if the $$$ is worth your time. If it was me. I'd have my agent contact the other, hopefully they'd volunteer to pay it. Also I'd contact the board anyway and just let them know. If you contact them with a plan, and let them know you just moved in, so have a lot of other house work to do, but have a plan for addressing the fence, etc. Our board would totally be ok with that.
What are the issues? That.might help add some context to this conversation
I guess throw grass seed paint the fende
r/fuckHOA
Depends how n a lot of factors. One thing is Did the sellers submit a copy of the Covenants, Codes, and Restrictions along with the other Disclosures? If they did not, then you have something to stand on. If they did, then you ain’t got much because your agent AND YOU have a duty to discover by reading the CCRs. Now if your state’s Residential Property Owners’ and Association Disclosure has a section outlining the items/services/restrictions covered by HOA fees, and if any of the HOA violations are in the RPOAD or could reasonably be indicated in that section, then you might have a case of willful omission. Best of fortune
Small claims court.
Paint the fence and put down some fertilizer. Why blow it out of proportion.
If suing not worth it why are you even posting here?? Just get your home fixed and enjoy it for years
Id never move to a place with an HOA. Scam.
They are awfully popular in many parts of the US. While HOAs can be a pain, a fair number work hard to ensure conformity across housing stock which gives homeowners valuation buoyancy in unsteady markets.
Why I will never buy a home with an HOA
Screw HOAs. If these busybodies want their pristine little utopias, they can take the dues they so aggressively collect and hire people to correct these "blights". This is why I refuse to live in an area with an HOA. I get the idea behind them-and in certain cases they can be functional governing bodies (helpful even). But more often than not they turn into people on power trips running their own little fiefdoms. (Me? Bitter about the subject? Naaahhh...)
Well you broke rule number one…. Never buy in an HOA so I guess your stuck fixing whatever the Karen that runs the HOA wants to bitch about this week until you give up an sell